by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Success!
- Reality
- How rare is rare?
- Second gun
- The big one
- A defective design
- USMR
- History is the point
- Scarce gun number 2
- The difference
- Celebrity association
- Moral?
- Is it real?
- Sow’s ear
- Don’t fall for it
- Market-driven scarcity
- Summary
Success!
This history section of the daily blog is a big success. Many readers are interested in collecting and learning about vintage airguns, so I am starting a series on collecting. There will be some things that you have seen before, but I hope to put it in a new light. And I have some new things to share, as well. I have already identified several topics for reports, so this promises to be a long one! I won’t run it consecutively, though. I’ll weave in in amongst the reports on historical items of interest. In the end I may turn it into a feature for “Firearms News”.
I have decided to depart from my usual fundamental writing style for this series. This will be written to an higher level.
Reality
I’ll start the series with a discussion of scarcity. The reality television shows that show buying, selling, finding and identifying rare items have helped me understand this topic immensely. Sure, many of the shows are scripted, and shows like Pawn Stars can be embarrassingly corny and amateurish. But among the maize there are nuggets of gold. That’s why I watch.
How scripted are they? A couple years ago I shipped a big bore air rifle to one reality show, so it could be “discovered” and addressed on the air. That’s how scripted they are.
How rare is rare?
Here are two examples to illustrate my point. I will present two guns that were each made in quantities of approximately 1,100. One from the mid-1800s is worth anywhere from $500,000 in fair condition (that’s NRA Horrible to most of us) to over one million dollars for one in good condition. Good means NRA Good, which means some small parts have been replaced and all the finish is gone, but the gun is still in functioning condition. If any historical provenance accompanies one of these guns, a zero can be added to it’s value.
Second gun
The other gun is a century newer, so mid-1900s. I am envisioning one that’s in very good condition — some finish missing but the gun functions, has all its original parts and has no modifications. There is very little chance of an historical connection with this one, but later I will address how personalities factor in. You can pick up one of these for $1,400-1,600 today.
Fourteen hundred dollars to one million dollars sounds like quite a spread for two things that were manufactured in similar quantities. One gun is close to a thousand times more valuable than the other. What are these guns?
The big one
The first gun is a Colt Walker revolver, named for Samuel Walker, the Texas Ranger turned Army company commander who convinced Samuel Colt to produce it. The U.S. Army ordered 1,000 revolvers and 100 more were made for the civilian market. They were revolutionary for their day, but they didn’t hold up in service!
The Colt Walker was so far ahead of its time that the technology wasn’t ready. The gun suffered many major malfunctions.
A defective design
First — these revolvers were subjected to the harshest conditions of combat in the American Southwest, where they were deployed. Second, the metallurgy of the era was not quite up to the challenge of the design. Guns blew up! Third, and this goes along with number two, the gun held a charge of approximately 60 grains of black powder in each of its six cylinders. Colt recommended only 50 grains, but 60 were possible and soldiers loaded by filling the chamber with powder and ramming a ball down on top of the charge.
Sixty grains of powder is a rifle charge — not a pistol charge. Combine that with the borderline metallurgy and Walker Colts have become extremely scarce. Close to 300 of them blew up in operation within the first couple years in service.
USMR
The Walker was issued to the First Regiment of Mounted Riflemen, although the history books now call them the U.S. Mounted Rifles. These were dragoons — like cavalry, only they packed more firepower. They were shock troops. I know the correct name because I was assigned this this regiment for the first three years I served in the Army.
When I was there it was called the Third Armored Cavalry Regiment, but I saw their after-action report of the War with Mexico in our regimental museum, and Sam Walker’s name was in it. He commanded Company C. Kit Carson’s name was also in that report! Ironically, at the time I was there the regiment was stationed at Ft. Bliss, Texas, on the border with Mexico! We were the unit that gave Mexico Los Ninos de Chapultapec – five Mexican cadets and one instructor who fought to the death rather than surrender at the Battle of Chapultapec. The last cadet, Juan Escuita, wrapped himself in the Mexican flag and jumped to his death off the ramparts of the castle at Chapultapec — Mexico’s West Point. When Chapultapec fell, Mexico City, the capital, became vulnerable and had to surrender to the U.S. Army. This is celebrated every year by a national day of memory on the 16th of September.
The Mounted Riflemen fought on foot that day, leading the charge that took the castle. When the battle was over, the commander of the American forces, General Winfield Scott, said to them, “Brave rifles! Veterans! You have been baptized in fire and blood and have come out steel!”
History is the point
My point is — the Colt Walker revolver carries a lot of history with it — maybe more than any other firearm that can be named. Even a dug-up relic of this famous revolver is worth a lot of money!
Scarce gun number 2
The other scarce gun is an airgun — a Sheridan Model B Sporter, to be specific. Sheridan started producing the model B in 1948, in an attempt to lower the retail price, because their model A priced at $56.50 in 1948, was not selling well. Little wonder, when $44.50 could buy a new Winchester model 61 slide-action .22!
In 1948 the Sheridan Model A (bottom) was $12 more than a Winchester model 61 pump gun.
So Sheridan developed their model B. It had all the build quality of the model A, but was cheaper to produce. The stock was still walnut, but had no cheekpiece, so the blank could be thinner. And the finish was changed from plating to a black paint. However, it wasn’t that much cheaper. Instead of $56.50, the model B retailed for $35.
Sheridan model B was a less expensive version of the Supergrade. This one has been refinished.
Conventional wisdom says when you want to sell more of something you lower the price. But that’s only partly correct. Yes, lowering the price will raise interest, but if the new item with the lower price isn’t perceived to be as good as the older item, you may not sell more of them. You may sell fewer! That’s what happened to the model B. Only about 1,100 were made, compared to 2130 of the pricier model As.
Yet a model B commands very little more than a model A today. They typically sell for $1,400 to $1,600 in very good condition. Certainly it is nowhere near what a Colt Walker will bring. And, when the condition of the model B degrades, the value drops fast. There will always be some value because of the parts, but it’s nothing like the Walker that is still worth five figures when it’s rusted into a solid clump.
The difference
I chose two guns from opposite ends of the historical spectrum for this comparison. One is the most well-known model of its type and is associated with names from history that every fifth-grader knows. The other gun is in a category that is unknown to the majority of the population. No history is connected to this gun beyond its own story that only a few airgunners know or care about.
Celebrity association
If Samuel Walker’s personal pair of revolvers (as far as I know, they have never been found) were to come up for sale there is no telling what they might bring, but I feel confident it would be over ten million dollars. If the personal rifles of E.H. Wackerhagen or Bob Kraus (WHO? — the two founders of Sheridan) were to come up for sale they might fetch as much as twice what another model B in similar condition would bring, but not ten times as much. It might take a long time before even that much would be realized, where Sam Walker’s personal revolvers would merit a television special and worldwide attention, were they to be sold.
Moral?
The moral of this is — be careful when you are asked to pay extra because an airgun was once owned by someone famous. There are many levels of fame. If a certain guitar was owned and used by Ted Nugent, it will fetch a lot more money than the same guitar in the same condition that was once owned by your music teacher! A person isn’t famous just because you have heard of him.
Is it real?
Here is something I see all the time. A guy is walking the aisles at an airgun show with a red felt bag. When you ask to see what he has, a conspiratorial look comes over his face as he guides you to a quiet corner. There he tells you a tale that goes something like this.
“When Daisy started making the Red Ryder BB gun, they used copper bands at the end of the forearm wood and around the muzzle. They called them “golden bands” in their sales literature. Well, what a lot of people don’t know is Daisy made three Red Ryders with real solid gold bands. I think they were 14 karat, but I’m not sure. These three were given to the president of the company, to Fred Harman, the cartoonist who created the Red Ryder series and to one other person. But Daisy’s marketing department also had 25 other rifles made with gold-plated copper bands. These rifles were finished with deep bluing and extra attention to the wood. This is one of those!”
Sow’s ear
The gun he shows you is a first variation Red Ryder that has been heavily restored. The wood has been sanded and re-stained, the metal has been highly polished and reblued. All the stamped lettering on top of the receiver looks melted as a result of the aggressive buffing. There are nuts on the ends of the screws that pass through the receiver that weren’t there when the gun was new. If you ask the guy about any of these details he has long and interesting stories for each one.
Sure enough, the bands on this gun are not copper-colored. They appear to be gold, except at the edges, where the gold has worn away to reveal the copper underneath.
Don’t fall for it
If your spider sense isn’t twitching off the scale at this point, you should take up a different hobby! What you are looking at is a junker Red Ryder that’s been buffed up and refinished, then fooled with (the gold plating) to make the bait more attractive. The fact that this is bait makes you the fish! Don’t be a sucker.
We could go on with other examples of rare guns, but the point has been made. Rarity by itself is not enough to make an airgun valuable. And any ties to celebrity have to be to real celebs. There is another facet that must be considered, as well. Is this an airgun people want? If people don’t want it it doesn’t matter if it’s the only one in existence.
Market-driven scarcity
Finally there are scarcities that are not driven by rarity, but by other things — things like location, laws, and customs. For example, silenced firearms are a scarcity in the U.S., but far less so in the United Kingdom and Europe, where the gun laws are different. Obtaining a firearm is more difficult there, but getting and using a silencer is easier.
The United Kingdom prohibited CO2 pistols for a long time. All air pistols in the UK have to be under 6 foot-pounds to be considered airguns (and not subject to legislation regarding ownership), but all CO2 pistols required firearm certificates for many decades. This built up a desire among UK airgunners to try CO2 pistols — especially certain models. Specifically they wanted Crosman Mark I and II Target pistols and Crosman 600 semiautomatic pistols.
When the laws changed several years ago, and CO2 pistols of less than 6 foot pounds were legalized, the UK market went ballistic. They began importing these Crosman pistols as fast as they could. Crosman Mark I and II and model 600 pistols are not rare or even scarce — except in the UK at that time.
Many of Crosman’s Mark I and Mark II went to the UK when the ban on CO2 was dropped.
The Crosman 600 10-shot semiautomatic pistol was a big hit in the UK when the CO2 ban was dropped.
The demand drove the price for these models sky-high. An average working Mark I that had sold for $80 one day was bringing $200 the next day. And 600s were topping $300 in the box at one point. This went on for several years until the itch was scratched thoroughly. Then life returned to normal, but with the prices of all these models a little higher than before.
Summary
Some guns are rare and command a lot of money. Some guns are rare and don’t seem to command the money their rarity implies. Some “rarities” are manufactured to deceive. Some guns command more because of association with celebrities, and some guns are scarce for market-driven reasons.
If you want to collect airguns you need to be aware of these facts. The decisions you make are up to you, but at least you know what’s true and what isn’t.
Hi BB
Great blog on collecting and scarcity! As I’ve said in previous blog entries I have a fairly large collection but my interest tends to run to serviceable and accurate airguns rather than collectibles. My last blog was about thinning the herd and some of the guns I’m letting go are old enough to be considered collectables. I hope they get passed on to people that will enjoy them as much as I have and maybe pass them on again.
And, as I’m always keeping my collection up, I have received some new guns recently (Yes, I have an addiction) and I’m very impressed with the latest airgun technology, specifically the Legends MP40 and the Swiss Arms stainless looking 1911’s. More on those later as well as a brand new Norinco jw25a.
Cheers
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for commenting! I am writing this series because it’s in me and I can’t stop! I have so much more to say!
Please tell me about your collecting style, as I want as much information as I can possible get on this subject.
My friend, Otho, has what I think is a Norinco JW 25a and the accuracy is astounding! It groups as well as his Winchester model 52B sporter, which puts 10 rounds into a half-inch at 50 yards most of the time. And the Norinco does it with open sights. I thjink the word is out on them, though, as they seem to fetch high prices on Gun Broker.
B.B.
18, 2017 at 1:06 am
BB – I think I originally posted to the wrong place. Here’s the second try.
Hi BB
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I’m suffering from a danged summer chest cold and all I seem to do lately is sleep!
My collecting style now is more for the unique replica style guns. I just love the new Colt 1911’s with their co2 and bb drop free mags.Their realism is impressive and now that the Swiss Arms 1911’s don’t have the safety defect that all the older guns had they are a pleasure to shoot. Another of my favorite examples is the Legends M712. I used that gun so much that one day last spring the barrel actually fell off because the grub screw fixing the outer barrel to the breech had no threads leftto grip. No problem though as as some 24 hr. JB Weld and a buckshe clamp fixed everything up tickety- boo. The gun shoots as good as when I got it a few years ago. This one is definitely not leaving the barn!
Many years ago I fell in love with a few of the cheap Chinese under and side lever springers. Top mention goes to the Bam B3 AK lookalike. I had several of these AK style guns but all will go except the oldest and bestest – the one I shoot the most!
About this time last summer I got a yesteryear Xisico/Bam B3, brand new and for a very reasonable price from a surplus store in Vancouver. (Recently found old/new stock?) It was a neat gun but at more than 50 lbs. cocking force, no safety or bear trap to speak of I decided it was too hard to cock and too dangerous for me to use so I will pass it on with all the guns I’m now letting go.
Another indication of what I like to collect now is the Daisy Winchester M14 pellet rifle. On top of its realistic looks it can hold its own with the best as an awesome plinker out to 50+ yards. Another gun that gives me fine results is the Gletcher M1944 Carbine in .177 steel BB. It’s a beautiful rendition of the Mosin Nagant M1944 Carbine and for a BB gun it has amazing accuracy out to 40 yards.
Finally, last but not least, and just received in the mail about 2 weeks ago is the Legends MP40. I had to use a window scraper razor blade and some parafin wax ( to blend the scraped and unscraped surfaces) to get rid of the “THIS IS NOT A TOY” warning on the right side bakelite cover. I left the Legends logo on the mag well and now it looks almost true to its original form. It seems to be a good performer the few times I’ve shot it – a great semi and full auto plinker.
As I said before the technology available now to build guns like these is amazing and the realism is what gives them (for me anyways) their collectability factor.
Cheers
Dave
Hi BB
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I’m suffering from a danged summer chest cold and all I seem to do lately is sleep!
My collecting style now is more for the unique replica style guns. I just love the new Colt 1911’s with their co2 and bb drop free mags.Their realism is impressive and now that the Swiss Arms 1911’s don’t have the safety defect that all the older guns had they are a pleasure to shoot. Another of my favorite examples is the Legends M712. I used that gun so much that one day last spring the barrel actually fell off because the grub screw fixing the outer barrel to the breech had no threads leftto grip. No problem though as as some 24 hr. JB Weld and a buckshe clamp fixed everything up tickety- boo. The gun shoots as good as when I got it a few years ago. This one is definitely not leaving the barn!
Many years ago I fell in love with a few of the cheap Chinese under and side lever springers. Top mention goes to the Bam B3 AK lookalike. I had several of these AK style guns but all will go except the oldest and bestest – the one I shoot the most!
About this time last summer I got a yesteryear Xisico/Bam B3, brand new and for a very reasonable price from a surplus store in Vancouver. (Recently found old/new stock?) It was a neat gun but at more than 50 lbs. cocking force, no safety or bear trap to speak of I decided it was too hard to cock and too dangerous for me to use so I will pass it on with all the guns I’m now letting go.
Another indication of what I like to collect now is the Daisy Winchester M14 pellet rifle. On top of its realistic looks it can hold its own with the best as an awesome plinker out to 50+ yards. Another gun that gives me fine results is the Gletcher M1944 Carbine in .177 steel BB. It’s a beautiful rendition of the Mosin Nagant M1944 Carbine and for a BB gun it has amazing accuracy out to 40 yards.
Finally, last but not least, and just received in the mail about 2 weeks ago is the Legends MP40. I had to use a window scraper razor blade and some parafin wax ( to blend the scraped and unscraped surfaces) to get rid of the “THIS IS NOT A TOY” warning on the right side bakelite cover. I left the Legends logo on the mag well and now it looks almost true to its original form. It seems to be a good performer the few times I’ve shot it – a great semi and full auto plinker.
As I said before the technology available now to build guns like these is amazing and the realism is what gives them (for me anyways) their collectability factor.
Cheers
Dave
BB,
As you have noted, I have a strong itch for airguns made in the early part of the 20th century. Many of these airguns were so well made that they are still usable over a century later and they shoot as well as many of the modern ones. What is strange is the “value” of these old airguns. Thankfully, most people do not know much about them and the prices are affordable for someone like myself. If you were to attempt to build my 1906 BSA or my Millitia air rifle today, it would cost you thousands. As you pointed out with the Sheridan, they were not cheap when they were made. Back then several people would get together and form a shooting club, pool their money and buy one air rifle. They would take turns shooting it in competitions.
Some of the more well known rarities such as the Webley air rifles and the Lincoln Jeffries air pistols command a higher price, but still in a price range of most collectors. It is not until you start talking about something like a Giaradoni that the price really starts going up and still not like a Walker.
RR,
Yeah. A good Girardoni now commands about $70-80K. Someone is making them in cast resin for a man cave wall!
B.B.
BB,
A while back a guy in California took one apart and made three replicas. He used welded stainless for the air bottle instead of brazed sheet iron. He kept one, gave one to the Giradoni owner and sold the third for over $30,000. I would like to have that one.
Type Girardoni on the Yellow Airgun Pages and you’ll get a lot of Info about one set of replicas that were made.
Brent
Brent,
Here is those I was referring to.
http://orro.net/
I thought that Colt Walker looked familiar. A quick Google search revealed I was correct. Clint Eastwood carried a pair of those wheel guns (replicas, of course) in one of my favorite western films, “The Outlaw Josey Wales”.
If you’re interested, check out the Internet Movie Firearms Data Base that goes into a lot of detail of the guns used in every movie. Here is the page for Josey Wales:
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Outlaw_Josey_Wales,_The
I have the replica. Amazing to watch quick draws using Colt Walkers even in a movie. My pistol weighs 3.8 pounds.
Decksniper
Dan Wesson Fan,
So did Mattie in the first True Grit. John Wayne called it a Dragoon, but it was a Walker for the extra size.
B.B.
You’re right, B.B.
Speaking of True Grit, the Coen Brothers sure did a good job on the 2010 remake of that film.
Thanks for the above link, GladesGuy. Cool website.
B.B.
And, don’t forget Col. Gus McCrae in the Lonesome Dove series – with the cartridge conversion.
Larry in Algona
BB,
I love this new subject! I will be very interested in the next installment.
My love is the match guns of the 60 to 80 area, especially the tiroler versions. A specialisation keeps the amount of guns I need to have a bit in check. The advantage is that you tend to know your subject and make less errors in buying (To bad that no errors is impossible, but I learn the fastest from my errors if they cost money).
The prices for Colts are really and rightly made by their place in history of the Frontier and the historical figures associated with the guns. Other sixshooters of that same period (Massachusetts Arms Company, Remington) are much cheaper even if the are similar amount made as in the case of the Massachusetts Arms Company.
Regards,
August
August,
Wow! You really do know your antique revolvers!
Yes, specializing in one type of airguns like a vintage 10-meter match gun does narrow the field quite a bit. I will keep that in mind as this series goes forward.
B.B.
B.B.,
I am excited that you are beginning to address this subject in depth. I will be anxiously awaiting future write-ups on this topic! Right now, I am starting to transition from being a mere airgun “hobbyist” to being a collector. My budget is not huge, but at least I finally have the time for it now. I am most interested in collecting the types of guns that I enjoy shooting best: low- to mid-power spring rifles that are easy to cock and pleasant to shoot, as well as single-stroke pneumatic pistols. (Obviously, any genuinely vintage airguns I can afford are going to fall into the former category, since the single stroke mechanism hasn’t been around that long.)
I confess, though, that I am starved for connections in the world of airgun collecting. Living now in Kentucky, where firearm ownership is easy, I have come to find that 99.9% of the people hear “airgun” and think “Red Ryder” (or maybe a Crosman multi-pump). I have met plenty of knowledgeable collectors at airgun shows, but never anyone around where I live. I have a hard time believing, though, that there are no other airgunners near me. What is the best way to start making connections?
General L,
The best way, believe it or not, is through this blog. We have well over 100,000 readers, so there are bound to be plenty in Kentucky.
Another way would be to attend the Pyramyd AIR Cup in August. There you’ll meet a lot of active airgunners who live close enough.
B.B.
BB,
What a great idea for a new series. I am already hooked. Reminds me of my search for a used S&W model 41 pistol. The 41 was considered one of the best .22 target pistols ever manufactured. Today, a used one is very hard to find and if you do find one, it will cost between $900 and $1200, maybe even more. A long time ago, I saw a used one in a gun shop. It was priced at $749. I did not know anything about the 41 at the time and could not justify $749 for a used .22 pistol. To this day I regret not buying it. Knowledge is power, always was, always will be. I think that is why most of us read this blog. I predict this will be an awesome series.
Ken
Ken,
There was one at the gun store in town, but it was $1,100, just like you said. You might look for a 46. They aren’t finished as well, but are every bit as accurate.
B.B.
B.B.
I kind of lost interest in .22 rim fires when the cost of ammo went through the roof and was impossible to find. That’s why I became an air gunner. Ha Ha.
Ken
BB,
Great topic and introduction to the principles of valuation on collectable items. You are completely correct in the idea that rarity alone does not create value; it doesn’t matter how few were made if nobody cares. Conversely for highly desired items a plentiful supply doesn’t diminish the price people will pay – how many worn-looking Winchester .22 pump rimfires with price tags of $600 + do you see at every gun show?
Don R.
Don,
Thanks for your comment. It means a lot, because you have seen many times more of this than I have.
I have plans to discuss other topics like condition, desirability, modifications, and counterfeits.
B.B.
B.B.,
Excellent observation about scarcity in a particular place caused by demand for a particular factor, a la the classic era Crosman CO2 pistols being too scarce for the demand for them in the UK after the laws changed.
Also, I’m glad you pointed out in a number of ways that rarity alone is not enough for something to be valuable. I find that too often a seller who does not know much about a collectible, for example a pawnbroker who knows his jewelry and firearms exceptionally well but is largely ignorant when it comes to musical instruments. “That’s a Gibson Sonex from the 1970s. VERY rare.” My reply would probably be, “Yep, AMC Pacers are rare, too, because like the Gibson Sonex, they were junk.” :^)
Michael
“Just because you’ve heard of them doesn’t mean they are famous.” I deal in rare books and I don’t know how many times I’ve explained that to people bringing in autographed books.
Rambler,
If you deal in rare books, you need to get a copy of my latests titled, “BB Guns For Everyone.” According to the sale figures, it’s going to be another Gutenberg Bible! 😉
B.B.
I will do that!
BB
Just read your report on the Crosman 116 from late ’05 I think, and wondered yet again, when you fill a bulk fill CO2 gun are you filling it with liquid or gas and if it’s from a fire extinguisher is the bottle upright or inverted?
Way of topic I know, but I don’t have anything to offer on the collecting front. Don’t know anything about it so I’ll just be a sponge on the topic (I do, in fact find it very interesting) and have to limit my collecting to buying more guns ( of the economical variety) than my wife thinks I need.
Halfstep,
Liquid always. The fire extinguishers have siphon tube that ru8n from the valve down to0 the bottom, so they pump liquid if they stand upright.
B.B.
The history is fascinating. With the reference to the Colt Walker, I cannot resist quoting Gene Hackman’s classic narrative from the Academy-Award winning film, Unforgiven, ca. 1992.
Gene: So English Bob (Richard Harris) aims at Two Gun Corcoran and fires, but he is so blind drunk that he misses. Then Two Gun Corcoran fired, but his Colt Walker blew up in his hand, which was a failing common to that model. So, then, English Bob takes aim real slow.
Journalist: No. He didn’t shoot him in cold blood.
Gene: He wasn’t going to wait for Corky to grow himself a new hand…
Having old surplus guns blow up on me was on of my fears, but one dealer told me that after 1900, they got the metallurgy right and there is no real danger with one that was properly constructed.
I didn’t know that story about the Mexican West Point, but that makes the Mexican War to be a kind of duel of military academies since it was a proving ground for the relatively new West Point Academy. This academy was instituted after the poor showing of the American military in the War of 1812 and was modeled on professional European military schools. The quality of the West Point officers was the main reason for American success in that war which involved sending a relatively small force far into enemy territory. I don’t know if it was at the Battle of Chapultepec but after a long series of improbable American victories, a Mexican commander said something like: If he were trying to defend Hell, the Americans would find a way in.
ChrisUSA, Gunfun1 et al., I wasn’t sure where the discussion began on holdover for elevation, and I didn’t have time to read everything, but I will say again why I think that the only factor in determining holdover is horizontal distance to the target and that the elevation and depression of the target makes no difference. ChrisUSA, I couldn’t visualize your explanation of drawing the lines at different angles, but I don’t see how you can approximate the curving trajectories of projectiles with straight lines. Generally, this is the hard way to do things since distance and time are mixed up in a complicated way. Vectors free you from all that.
The basic model is a two dimensional graph with an x and a y axis where x represents a horizontal direction and y represents height. It is accepted that velocity can be represented on this graph in terms of vectors. Through the addition principle, vectors can add together which means that if you fit vectors nose to tail, you can add them up to get a composite vector. So add the vertical and horizontal velocities, and you get the total velocity. My example from yesterday was the simplest case. If you drop a baseball down on the ground and you throw it forward as hard as you possibly can, it will hit the ground at the same time as determined by gravity acting on the ball. The difference in point of impact is due entirely to the horizontal velocity vector, but this has no effect at all on the vertical movement. Between these two cases of the straight drop and the horizontal throw is a difference of 90 degrees, but neither the two end cases, 0 and 90, or anything in between affects how fast the ball is dropping and that tells you that the vertical drop is independent of the incident angle of elevation.
Here is a basics physics problems that illustrates this. Suppose a hunter sees a monkey hanging in a tree and raises his gun to aim directly at the monkey. The monkey, watching this, decides that he will let go of his branch at the instant of the shot and fall safely under the bullet. The question is whether the monkey is right or not. The answer is that he is wrong and that the bullet will hit him because it is pulled down by the exact same gravitational force that is acting on the monkey over the same period of time. (I got this problem wrong, by the way.) For any disbelievers this was actually staged in a large auditorium where they set up some kind of air cannon with a spear. They rigged a monkey doll up at the ceiling. They fired the cannon and released the monkey at the same instant, and darn it if, the spear didn’t hit the monkey dead center.
Matt61
Matt,
The war when that was said was the Mexican War, specifically at Chapultapec, and the person who said it is supposed to have been General Santa Anna, whom we had heard from a little earlier.
B.B.
Matt61
The best I can say is go back and read it all. Then let us know what conclusion you come to.
Matt61,
I just did some quick research on the topic of shooting at angles. I used Chairgun and a link that GF1 provided yesterday. As an example:
-You laser a Ram at 1000 yards down a 45* slope.
-Per the chart in the link, you would multiply 1000 x .70=700 (30% reduction in hold,.. you shoot at whatever you would shoot at given a level 700 yard shot)
-You adjust your aim as if you are shooting at a (level) 700 yards
Conversely, that also means that you could add 30% to the yardage of a level shot and get the same result. Of course you hold over would increase by 30% as well, instead of reducing the holdover, I think. I did not check the holdover required. I just looked at the graph.
In Chairgun, I took my .25 M-rod and it’s second zero was 40 yards. I then set the incline to 45* and ran the end range out to 100 yards. The end result,… the second zero was now at 60 yards. A 33% difference. Very close.
I believe that were looking at the same thing,…. it is just that we were looking at it in 2 different ways.
Chris
Chris U
Yep that’s exactly what I was talking about using the Chairgun program. And yes that link I gave.
I was trying to give different examples so people could see what does happen and what doesn’t happen.
Guess I ain’t a very good teacher am I after all. Oh well. I Tryed.
GF1,
Naw, you are a fine teacher and a lot of good points were discussed. It is important to know the why’s and how’s of things, not just plug in a #. I think that much was learned and at the very least, it got people to think.
Chairgun is good in that it shows changes with real time results. It is nice for testing out some “wonky” idea that I may get or something that I do not understand. If people were to spend even a short time playing with it, their learning curve on understanding ballistics would be cut way down. If I were to shoot firearms on a serious basis, I would use it just because of the added time and cost of ammunition. It has helped me a lot.
Chris U
I do like messing with Chairgun just to see how it affects things. Pretty cool program. I think anyway. To me it will help make a person a better shooter.
BB
I think this particular blog should have been titled “Collectable” airguns. By definition “Collecting” airguns simply means bringing airguns together in one place and a “Collection” is the result. There needs to be further clarification as to what type of airgun(s) you collect.
“Collectable” airguns are those that for various reasons have become very desirable to possess. Scarcity is one of those reasons.
You can collect any type of airgun you desire. I will have 20, mostly in pairs, Colt SAA pistols when the Ace in the Hole comes in. Now some of these ‘may’ move into “Collectable” status in the future simply because they are limited in production. Only time will tell. However there are certain things that traditionally make an airgun collectable the day it’s made and usually involves quality.
Question is, in the past who knew what airgun would become extremely valuable in the future. Especially if it was still in production.
Collectables are just airguns that have become extremely desirable and are usually rare. They should not be the only type discussed under the umbrella of “Collecting”. If they are, I suggest the blog be titled Collectables so as not to discourage people from collecting.
Bob M
Very good discription.
Reminds me of the conversations I had with my buddy’s when we was growing up as kids. We was getting the muscle cars that nobody wanted because of the high gas prices that came about in the early to mid 70’s. People parked them and us kids gobbled them up if you know what I mean.
Back then I had no comprehension of them being collectable. But it did sink in as time went. As it goes what’s that word I’m looking for. Oh yeah. Hind sight.
All I can say is man. Only if I could of kept them all. I would be more than a millionaire now.
GF1
Unfortunately the older we get the more hind sight comes into play. I should have bought that entire Shelby GT350 sitting in the junk yard instead of just the fold down rear seat. I think hoarders may win out here.
Seems to me the market for airguns is overwhelming today and companies like Umarex are close to perfecting them with their Legends line. Everything is looking like a collectable and then something even better comes out to replace it.
If collecting was only for financial gain I guess you should stick to certified collectables. Fortunately there are other rewards from accumulating the things that make you happy.
Bob M
Agree with you totally.