by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Black Ops Junior Sniper combo
This report covers:
• Monopod
• Daisy Premium Grade BBs
• Hornady Black Diamond BBs
• Crosman Copperhead BBs
• Avanti Precision Ground Shot
• Summary
This is the report you’ve been waiting for. How accurate is the Black Ops Junior Sniper air rifle combo with steel BBs? Today, we’ll find out.
I went back to Part 2 and discovered that the rifle gets almost 500 f.p.s. on 3 pumps when shooting BBs. Since I was shooting at 16 and a fraction feet (5 meters), this was more than enough velocity for the test. It also sped up the test a bit.
Monopod
I try to take my personal weaknesses out of any test I do, and resting the gun is a good way to do that. I used to use a bench and sandbag for all of this, but shooting a BB gun at 5 meters is a lot to set up for. Thankfully, I discovered the UTG Monopod. It’s light, quick and convenient. And, it produces results that are very close to a bagged rest. Certainly, they’re good enough for a test like this.
Daisy Premium Grade BBs
The first BB tested was the Daisy Premium Grade BB. I loaded just 10 into the gun’s reservoir, then started shooting. At first, I thought the gun was doing very well; but as the shots increased, I could see that it wasn’t. In the end, I’d put 10 shots into 1.787 inches. That’s at just over 16 feet! Most BB pistols will do better than that.
Ten Daisy Premium Grade BBs made this 1.787-inch group at 5 meters. This isn’t very good.
As things turned out, this was the second-worst group of the test. Daisy BBs aren’t on the bottom very often, but this proves that it can happen.
Hornady Black Diamond BBs
The next BB to be tested was the Hornady Black Diamond. In other tests, I’ve found these BBs to be equal to the best, though not all guns seem to like them. But the Black Ops Junior Sniper seems to. Ten of these black steel BBs went into a group that measured 0.991 inches between centers — or just about an inch. While that certainly isn’t target gun accuracy, it sure is going in the right direction! It turned out to be the best group of the test!
Now, that’s a group! Hornady Black Diamond BBs did well in the Black Ops Junior Sniper. Ten went into 0.991 inches at 5 meters.
Crosman Copperhead BBs
Next, I tried Crosman Copperhead BBs. While these are premium BBs, they’re slightly smaller than the others and vary in size just a little more than the rest. But this time they were just about even with the Daisy BBs, putting 10 into 1.79 inches at 5 meters. This was the largest group of the session, but it’s so close to the Daisy group that I have to rank them as equal.
Crosman Copperhead BBs did about the same as Daisy BBs in this test. Ten went into 1.79 inches at 5 meters.
Avanti Precision Ground Shot
The last BB I tried was the Avanti Precision Ground Shot. Since these are so demonstrably better than other premium BBs in the Avanti Champion 499 BB gun, we tend to think of them as more accurate in all guns, but that isn’t the case. They’re slightly larger, and their surface is very uniform, but not all BB guns can make good use of those qualities.
In the Black Ops Junior Sniper, 10 Avanti shots printed a group that measured 1.625 inches. That’s not much better than the 2 worst groups, and way off the pace of the Black Diamond BBs.
Avanti Precision Ground Shot offerend no advantage in the Black Ops Junior Sniper. Ten went into 1.625 inches at 5 meters.
Summary
In short, I think the Black Ops Junior Sniper is a much better pellet rifle than a BB gun. I would just shoot it with lead pellets. But you can do both if you want to. Don’t look for more than soda-can accuracy at 25 feet with BBs, though.
Next, I’ll mount the scope that comes with the combo and back up to 25 yards. Pellets will be back on the menu, and this time I know which ones work. Remember the accuracy we saw at 10 meters with this rifle? I’m hoping it holds out to 25 yards. If it does, this rifle becomes a best buy!
“In short, I think the Black Ops Junior Sniper is a much better pellet rifle than a BB gun. I would just shoot it with lead pellets. But you can do both if you want to. Don’t look for more than soda-can accuracy at 25 feet with BBs, though.”
In my experience its not worth it to shoot BBs in dual-ammo (pellets and BBs) multi-pumps with rifled barrels. Pellets just shoot better in a rifled barrel. Not sure if the difference is as noticeable in a smooth-bore like the Crosman 760 though…
But it makes a big difference to a 7 year old when he’s buying ammo with his own money. I think that’s why they make it to market $2.00 /200 BB’s vs $15 for 500 pellets.
These kids may be awhile disappointed, though, when they find out they can’t hit the broad side of a barn, or a can past 30/40 feet.
My RedRyder did well with whatever was cheapest back then out to 60-70′ and wouldn’t take pellets but the more well off neighbors would get pellets for their guns and I’d ask how much they cost and the usual answer was “Mom picked ’em up while shopping”.
I was mowing yards @$2-$5.00 apiece and had to hang on to enough for gas.
And I’m guessing if you had had this instead of a red Ryder you likely would have given up on the whole shooting thing. Unless you could have found another source of money for pellets…
I’ve been thinking about guns for my kids as they get older, more and more I’m thinking something along the lines of a red Ryder is a better starting point than a 880 or 760 or something like this.
The Big brown truck just made a delivery,hmmm…
Wonder what that could be? It’s a big box! I wasn’t expecting that but
woohoo
I’m hoping
there are smaller ones inside.
I’ll be back shortly with a status report.
Reb
I’m waiting till Saturday for the big white truck…. it’s bringing my foray into pcp.
Tim,
Big white truck huh?
Wanna run’em?
What’s gonna get your cherry?
I’m getting a marauder in .22 (synthetic stock), Hill pump, center point scope, and a few tins of pellets.
Time to set up a target in the back yard that will absorb the pellets and get shooting.
That’s gonna be a nice package!
No chance I’d give up shooting ’til I’m too stiff from rigor mortis!
Get a long enough belt for a machine gun and even rigor won’t be able to stop you…
Its worth pointing out your old Red Ryder was a smooth-bore and smooth-bores tend to do better with BBs than rifles do…
I really doubt most kids are going to buy premium pellets. They’re more likely to be shooting the cheap pellets that cost $3-$4 for 500 you buy from the local big-box store. Accuracy with those sorts may not match the premium pellets, but they should still do better in a rifle than BBs at 50 feet.
BB, I’d like to know more about the innards of the rifle..if you don’t want to disassemble it, would you mind making the simple test of trying to pump um the airgun with an uncocked bolt? If the hisses out of the barrel, it probably uses valve system similar to the Daisy guns. If not, it probalbly has a knock-open valve.
Mel,
I can tell you now that the bolt does need to be cocked for the rifle to accept air. But that is true of most new pneumatics.
B.B.
Both my new Daisy Red Ryder AND my new Daisy No. 25 will do better than this gun shooting bb’s. I shoot these also at about 16 feet. I think you are planning to shoot this gun again, but at 25 yards and pellets, as I recall?
Jon,
Yes. I will mount the scope and move back to 25 yards.
B.B.
The rifled barrels sure don’t seem to like bbs. My 880 doesn’t even want to keep bbs on the standard letter sized paper at 10 yards.
Let’s see how it holds up at 25 yards. If it doesn’t hold up at 25 would you shoot another group at ten? I doubt 30 bbs has done anything to the barrel but I know some people think putting any bbs down these barrels will make the accuracy suffer with pellets.
Tim,
I wondered when this concern would surface. Okay, just for you I will shoot a final group at 10 meters.
B.B.
BB,
Would it not be nice if someone was to build a multi-pump along the lines of the Discovery or the Katana?
You might want to google the phrase “Millennium Pumper”. They are being built right now by a fellow who started out his airgun business selling swaged pellets/bullets. They start out as a Disco. Not cheap though.
StevenG,
I will look into this. It sounds like something a lot of people want.
B.B.
I just thought RidgeRunner might get a kick out of it. I try not to post any links to PA competitors no matter how small. I enjoy your blog too much to take any business away from PA. Plus no one else ships pellets as well. There ought to be a law making that the only legal way to ship pellets 🙂
I do think the idea is popular, but I think for the cost most folks would just go with a PCP. Crosman could produce such a thing for a more reasonable cost, since they so many of their parts are plug and play. Not sure the market is really there for a premium pumper though. Once it costs as much as a Disco and Pump or more, the millenium is a whole lot more, I think most buyers would go for the disco.
StevenG,
I looked at it and you’re right — it is pricy. But even at $1375, the guy is making almost nothing on each one. Crosman could build the same thing to sell for $800 and make a good profit, I think.
B.B.
I will defer to you on that.
I think once they are up to $800, they might as well go whole hog and sell it for $999. Make it a competitor to the FX independence. Put a name brand barrel on it. They already use green mountain for the .25 marauder, so go back to them and get some .22 barrels. Not knocking the crosman barrels, but that kind of thing sells units. Crosman would be well served with a “halo” product and they have the know how and brands to come out with a super premium line. Even if they only sell a couple a year, just putting that thing in Shockey’s hands and on TV is going to help move product. Showing that they can compete with and beat the Europeans on performance first and foremost, rather than price is worth a lot.
That fellow is making no money because they are reinventing the wheel; he is machining breeches, instead of using something off the shelf, boyds blaster stocks instead of the factory unit, nicer gauges rather than Marauder gauges, both shrouded and not instead of just doing one to simplify. I think he is doing something wonderful, but not something for the mass market, and not something for the super premium end either. I am not knocking him one bit, just that his approach is not feasible if thousands of units are to be built.
Crosman has a huge advantage here. They have just about all the parts already in house, or at least designs for them. They have the knowhow to crank out a lot of volume. They have a supply chain and support network. They have retailers and fans.
RR,
Yes it would. In fact, so much has been said about that, that I believe it is an idea that’s gone wanting. Someone (Crosman) is missing a golden opportunity!
The new gun needs to have a slimmer stock with lighter weight. Think of a Marauder with a Discovery stock. Or a Disco with a Marauder trigger and barrel shroud.
B.B.
Single shot would be fine. A nice trigger would be great. Light weight would be a plus.
Crosman is missing out. As I said, they should offer the Disco or Katana as a pumper and a FX Independence version of the Marauder also.
I would scrape up the bucks to put those in my closet.
How many folks do you think would spend twice what a Disco and pump kit cost on something like that?
Crosman has many of the problems car makers have, sure the Marauder trigger group easily can be fitted onto a Discovery, but if they did that they would lose Marauder sales. Same thing with this, once you have a Disco pumper that costs as much as a Marauder, either you are selling less Marauders or no one is buying that pumper. I don’t see how making it a pumper grows the market.
I am not saying I don’t want to see one. I am not saying the readers of this fine blog would not buy them, only that the mass market would not.
I think first Crosman should focus on growing their market share and the quality airgun market in general. They need to attack the top and bottom of the market. The bulldog looks good for big bore, now they need to make a more premium version of the marauder just to be a “halo” product. I do not mean the tacticool armada. I mean something that can compete with a daystate, or FX. At the same time convert a 760/2100 into a $100 PCP, $199 with pump or less. The cheaper the better. That will get cheaper PCPs into the hands of young folks. It will give them an airgun that is easy to shoot well and relatively powerful. Ideally they would be dual fuel, PCP and CO2. Getting young shooters is the way to grow the sport. A $500 pumper is not going to do that.
StevenG,
I do not think they would lose sales on the Marauders. Most people who have Marauders do not fill them with hand pumps.
Now FX would lose sales if they built a Marauder you could fill from a tank of pump up like the Independence.
I am missing where to find out how to buy and how much etc. this pumper is.
RR,
Search for Millennium Pumper air rifle. He apparently doesn’t have a website, or if he does it isn’t ranked very high, but you can find out everything by the comments he leaves on other websites.
B.B.
His website does not yet list the Millenium pumper. You can find that in his signature on those posts.
What do you base that on? I know folks who use hand pumps to fill Marauders. I bet it is far more common than you think. Almost everyone I know of starts with a pump and then moves to a tank.
A Marauder/Discovery like an Independence would almost surely replace a lot of Marauder sales. To get these levels of power you are going to have to have the ability to fill from tank or pump. Otherwise you are talking about 50 pumps per shot or something else silly. A dump valve is simply not efficient enough. That means you have to make it like the Independence.
I think FX buyers are unlikely to buy a crosman product right now. FX is a far more premium brand.
$1375, and as BB and I discussed, he is making no money on these. They are making so much customer stuff.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79114.0
A Marauder set up like an Independence would weigh more than a regular Marauder. That right there would discourage some. The Independence did not take away from the other FX air rifles, it just gave the rich guys something else to spend their money on.
Actually, this Millenium is more like what I was speaking of for the Marauder. What I was thinking of for the Discovery/Katana was more along the lines of an upgraded 397/392. Besides having brass barrels soldered to the pump tube, their main drawback is the barrel is too short. This limits the power. Even if you could pump it up to 20, the short barrel will not allow the increased pressure to really be effective.
RR,
Is it time for me to resurrect my tests of the Daystate Sportsman Mark II? That is a multi-pump that was as accurate as a PCP and built just as well.
B.B.
Have at it B.B. but that’s gonna be too rich for my blood I’m sure. I’m not gonna get another 392 after the accuracy issues I’ve suffered with the one I already have but have considered the Rebel many times.However I may be moving away from multi-pumps after what’s become of my left arm. My shoulder keeps popping about halfway out by just raising it to put on my jacket and anything else like waking up from sleeping on it, OUCH!
Really? Awesome! That is probably where FX came up with the Independence. You would not happen to have one laying around now, would you? 😉
I’ll second that!
The dump valve is also a major performance killer. Dump valves are not efficient. Surely some people bought the independence rather than another FX rifle.
What you describe has all the defects of both those guns. It will be more expensive than a disco and have the poor efficiency of a 392.
I don’t consider the 392 to be inefficient.
But inaccurate, Yes!
All dump valves are inefficient. It is a simply fact. They are still sending air down the barrel when the pellet is too far along for it to matter. A smaller burst of much higher pressure air is far more efficient.
Have you cleaned the paint out of the barrel?
Steven G, In regards to my accuracy deficiency with my 392,
I cleaned the paint outta the barrel before I joined this blog(about a year ago) and recrowned when that didn’t work. I’ve tried every brand .22 pellet I could get my hands on. Are you sure the 392 has a dump valve? Because it looks suspiciously like the valve in my pumpmaster. The Crosman 120,130,140 and Rebel have true full dump valves but this 392 has a cartridge valve with a check valve on the intake side and an exhaust valve in the rear where the hammer strikes the valve stem?
No reply button down there.
Reb
I have thought some more on it and the way I see it is that from a marketing standpoint it would probably be a no go because the Discovery with a hand pump fills the power and price slot quite nicely.
Now an Independence/Marauder has a viable market.
Yes, something like a Marauder. The built in pump would be a big selling point, I think they would sell well. This would be a PCP with it’s own pump. Keeping the weight down might be a problem.
Mike
As long as it would need one stroke to produce 12ftlb, like a Webley Paradigm.
But yeah its not cheap close to 1k
Did they finally build one?
RR
NO . It was only a video that Nigel Allen(UK) did a several years ago.
Same ole bait & switch eh?
Chris,
I have waited quite a while for the Webley. I gave up holding my breath a couple of years ago.
RR
I know what you mean. It didn’t make it here in US. I think the $$price$$ is what killed the pre orders and died with maybe one or two proto types. Be careful what you wish for.
I think the main killer was the pump stroke. Not only was it a honker, but I suspect it would have been easy to catch a finger or two at the end.
Did that with my 953 the last couple times I used it.
12ftlb in one stroke is a tough nut to crack. Either you precharge the pumper like the FX independence or you deal with a heck of a pump effort and a very long pump arm travel.
B.B.,
Did you ever test the Webley Rebel at 25 yards with optics like you promised in part 3?
kevin
Kevin,
Not yet. I haven’t forgotten about it. The Rebel is so hard to pump that when it has a scope I am dreading the exercise at 25 yards. But it is standing by in the bullpen.
B.B.
Understood. You mentioned in part 3 that you had an “idea” that might make that easier with the rebel. I’m as interested in this “idea” you have up your sleeve as I am in your rebel’s performance at 25 yards.
kevin
Kevin,
Yeah, I read that last week and wondered what it was, too! 😉
I think I have remembered it, now.
B.B.
I may be giving away a big secret but my guess would be to use a long eye relief scope and barrel clamps to move the scope closer to the muzzle in order to reserve the receiver for pumping.but I’m a short guy with short arms and used to pump my 392 by holding the pistol grip. Until I read some good reasons not to!
Well, I was wondering when someone would bring it up but PA is offering Remington BBs. I purchased a bottle and found them shooting quite well in a S&W 327 RR8 BB pistol. It wasn’t shot with test results in mind or in comparison with any other BBs, I just noticed they had grouped very well at 10m.
I plan on doing some new test shooting through my BB gun collection to find out how they do.
So I am suggesting that maybe you can throw in the remington BBs in some of your testing. Don’t want to insist on adding “extra work” for you to do but thought they could be substituted on occasion.
Although I’m not much of a BB shooter, that’s good news. I was also happy to hear Hornady had an offering.
Bert
Remington was teamed up with Crosman , so it may be Crosman bb’s packaged as Remington. But they do look more golden than cooper.
Bert,
I will order some Remington BBs to test in the future. But here is the deal. Making BBs is a huge capital investment. I know Remington is a large company, but I doubt they are going to invest over a million dollars to put in a BB line. So, they are buying their BBs from someone.
Daisy or Crosman would be the obvious choices. Like Hornady, who I am sure don’t make the BBs that carry their name, all you have to do is change the look of the product and packaging and you have a new BB.
I used to chase things like Remington and Cabelas pellets, until I realized I was chasing snipe. There are very few companies in the world that actually produce steel BBs and lead pellets.
B.B.
These BBs are very clean. As clean as the daisy zinc BBs.
They are gold and look nothing like the quality of Crosman copperheads. I find the copperheads to be pitted and dirty and of a general poor appearance.
They appear to resemble Marksman’s BBs the most. My eyes are not precision instruments but these BBs look like very high quality premium shot.
Any way, I had just noticed that they seemed to shoot very well. And share.
Bert,
Well, that was just my guess. I will look at them.
B.B.
Gosh, I have just read your shot show report and agree with your decision to leave the Remington Booth. i will have to say I am quite disappointed in what that rep had to say. I guess I would be fine if I did not see the Remington bbs in your reports.
Bert,
No problem. I will still get them and test them.
B.B.
They said they fixed that problem in an email to B.B. the day or so after he reported his experience(I remember because I made a joke about them putting a rubberband on his wrist so anyone could slap it when he didn’t act right) Since they squashed the beef I see no good reason to boycott them for one rep’s Dufusry.
I just got off the phone with Crosman and they said they’d been trying to email me for a while. They also said my 2400 is to be delivered today and gave me a tracking # that I can’t get to work. Anyone elese experienced these problems?
B.B,
Regarding pumping the rebel by holding the pistol grip
At least you don’t have to worry about cracking a nice wooden stock!
Tom,
All of the above comments about how regular springer BB long guns like the Red Ryder and Model 25 do better at 5 meters than “dual-ammo” rifles has me thinking that the reason for this must be the larger bore of the rifle, not the rifling itself. A Daisy/Avanti 499 has the tightest .175 barrel of them all, and it is the most accurate .175 of them all.
Did the BB caliber Benjamins of decades past have a reputation for being as accurate as Daisys at short distances such as 15-20 feet?
Michael
A steel BB cannot engage the grooves like a Diablo pellet can. Instead, the grooves allow air to blow past the BB, and also impart uneven rotation (not a clean spin around the longitudinal axis!) whenever the BB gets caught in the rifling.
I keep waiting for someone to offer a lead coated steel BB that would engage rifling and still work in magnetized actions.
Maybe they haven’t thought of it or maybe it would be too difficult or costly?
Rebn,
Plainsman did it in the 1950s.
B.B.
That’s good! It means it can be done. Were they marketable as far as price is concerned? How well did they work I’ll be looking them up for more answers as I’m just killin’ time right now
If so why doesn’t someone do it again?
Reb,
It was 1950s technology, so they worked that good. Plainsman went out of business and the guns’ production ended.
That was the end of it.
B.B.
Couldn’t find anything about the BB’s but watched a cool video of a guy shooting a muzzle loading .50 Plainsman by CVA that he picked up in a pawnshop for $125.
Michael,
Not really. As I recall, they opened up pretty fast. I remember thinking they were made for lead shot, only, until I found several tins of steel BBs in a green Benjamin can.
B.B.
Called Crosman back and got the same rep, he said he still had it pulled up on his computer and gave it to me again and it worked this time. This will be their second attempt at delivery so I’m stuck here for the day.
Off topic I know. But cannot seem to locate a gauge for a P-rod. Would like something a little sturdier than the factory gauge. Less the 200 shots, always filled with a hand pump. Now the gauge stays on max. Makes it hard to judge when to refill.
This may lead you in the right direction, I didn’t read everything but it’s a step in the right direction.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1385073201/P-rod+gauge+leak+and+repair
Though I’ve not exhaustively searched your blog archives, B.B., I’ve been keeping my eyes open for a survival BB gun and I held hope for this Black Ops. It’s inexpensive so a spares kit could be procured by simply buying several copies of the gun! Sadly, like most BB guns, it isn’t sufficiently accurate with BBs for hunting much more than soda cans!
Even though pellets (especially .177s, which compete well for this mission role) are relatively cheap to buy and store, the only ammo that’s cheaper than BBs is rocks for a slingshot! For squirrels, pigeons, and maybe cottontails in a pinch, a good BB gun should do the job for shots out to yardage into the teens or so.
Can an Avanti be “hopped-up” and tuned with a heavier spring to reach 500 fps and still retain decent accuracy? In an actual survival situation, I think it’s ethical to relax accuracy requirements a bit, but it would still be nice to be able to hit quarters 10 out of 10 times!
-Cal
Cal,
No an Avanti Challenger 499 cannot be boosted that fast.
But I have to ask — a BB gun for survival? Not very practical. BBs don’t kill well.
B.B.
BB guns certainly don’t kill very well in a sport hunting situation, but I think they might have a place in a survival situation where pigeons and squirrels are likely to be the only plentiful game in many areas. As is the case with the Russian approach to military hardware, sometimes quantity IS quality!
Bob Beeman’s field guide advises 3 ft-lbs of energy minimum for hunting pigeons and squirrels using pellets (415 fps in .177). From my experiences many decades ago as a kid (the only time I’ve ever hunted with a BB gun) this seems fairly reasonable–especially in a survival situation. Quite satisfactory 0.177 pellets cost about one cent each when on sale but you can buy 10 BBs for a penny! Sure, the pellets are very affordable, but keep in mind that shooting 10 a day will expend 36,500 of them over 10 years. That’s “only” $365 in pellets and maybe those numbers are seemingly pessimistic to you or others, but they are the numbers I have in mind.
I also believe that I would miss more often in survival hunting than sport hunting (and I believe it to be ethical in a survival situation, as I mentioned.) A cheap BB gun and $36 in BBs still seems to be a good value to me, if reasonable accuracy at 3 ft-lbs could be realized.
If the effectiveness were proven and apparent to others, barter trade is another possible use for such survival supplies.
That’s just my line of thinking, anyway.
No doubt many a small animal has met it’s demise to an adolescent with a BB gun& the first armadillo I ever saw on the kitchen table was taken with a 880 and 1/2 dozen or so BB’s. Granny made us clean it and fried it up just like chicken
Calinb,
I responded to some of your comments on the scope blog but are unable to find it.
As for a guest blog, I say go for it. Your scope bedding is something I have never heard of. And your “no longer made tool” sounds interesting as well.
As for shooting ethics in a survival eating situation,….I see that getting thinner and thinner the hungrier that one gets. My choice would be a quality single pump with pellets.
Chris,
If you’re having trouble finding the scope blog you can keep an eye on the right and between the ads and archives is a listing of the most recent posts. It’s like the 3rd one.
If you can’t find your replies you may have been spammed(happens to me all the time, especially when I share links!)
Reb,
No trouble finding the scope blog. As for a comment not posting, I suppose it happens to all of us at one time or another. I would guess,..and its only a guess,…that there is a “trusted list” of posters. As for links, I never post them,..at least not a link that you could directly click on anyways. B.B. and Edith are great in retrieval of “lost” messages and I am very thankfull for the blog.
Thanks, Chris.
Due to the blog’s spam filter, your comments might still show up eventually. I have three springers (two .177 and one .22) and also a Benji 392, but I could use an excuse to buy something new (and 36,000 BBs). 😉 A PCP is already on my must-have list too.
Within limited range, round balls and muzzleloaders kill game very well. I don’t see why a BB would not have a similar relationship to a .177 diabolo pellet. Sure, given a survival survival situation choice, I’d prefer to shoot a muzzleloader conical over round ball ammo and, if available, I prefer to shoot a diabolo pellet over a BB too. I’d probably choose a 17 HMR for most survival hunting applications, given an unlimited supply of ammo, because in my experience, even a $200 17 HMR rifle can shoot as accurately as the best 22 LR and the rifles tend to be very light weight and reliable. However, 17 HMR ammo is pretty expensive and now 22 LR ammo is expensive too.
I think the problem with most BB guns is both insufficient penetration (low velocity and mass), even on the smallest game, and also relatively poor accuracy, which is obviously also a problem on the smallest game (kill zones).
You sound like a good candidate for the $100 PCP! It’ll help you with those 36,000 BB’s
Calin,
You couldget a Crosman2100 and pull the BB stop like I did on my Rem Airmaster so it’d run .177 lead BB’s to get both the accuracy you’re looking for and much more power but they try to double-feed. When I get my left hand rehabbed enough I’m going back in to reinstall itafter some filing down.
Thanks, Reb. I’ll check it out. Lead BBs are pretty expensive compared to steel, though even at $2 per pound, the raw lead is nearly as cheap as 5.1 gr. steel BBs. Someday, I’ll build a shot dropping apparatus and hike to the top of some nearby basalt cliffs with my lead pot and camp stove. (I was an avid rockclimber in my much fitter youth so no big deal.) I’d like to try dropping my own custom size BBs into a large water vessel. Yeah–call me nuts but that’s the kind of stiff I like to do for fun! I have over 1000 lbs of lead and several dozen molds, last time I did an inventory of my reloading supplies!
They’re not cheap but in a survival scenario the owner’s manual says it’ll fit 220 onboard.
I like your dropshot idea and could use some exercise myself lemme know when you’re ready I’ve been sitting on about 50# for a few months. 🙂
Sorting is the fun part 😉 !
Calinb,
Funny you asked that about the 499….I asked the very same question just the other day,….and got the very same answer.
Until a good replica of the Daisy 1894 comes out, I am seriously looking at the 499 to satisfy my “lever action fixation”. I do suppose, that if one was going for a survival B.B. gun,..that would be it.
Of course, if the low fps does’nt get ’em,…you can always run up and have a few good swings at ’em to finish the job. Only in a survival situation,…. of course! 😉
Yeah, those results are not too great at five yards. It makes me wonder why you would want to shoot steel bbs? You cannot shoot people like you can with airsoft. The old habits of kids shooting each other without eye protection seems just crazy. On the other hand, steel bbs won’t give you the accuracy of pellets. I’m appreciating my airsoft guns more.
I have made some pretty amazing discoveries. Have a look at Maria Guschina, a 19 year old Russian teenager, and the world IPSC pistol champ who defeated our own superstar, Julie Golob, the captain of Team Smith & Wesson, by over 100 points. Unbelievable. Is it true that men outshoot women? I’m not sure why that would be since strength is not a factor, and I thought that women had at least the small muscle coordination of men that is used in shooting. But I gather it is true since Maria’s scores were described as 80% of some prominent male shooter’s. Regardless, I imagine that Delta Force operators could hardly do better than Maria. Russia has its problems, but it consistently produces some pretty amazing people.
The second discovery is Maria’s gun. It is a Tanfoglio pistol that is a clone of the CZ 75! Here is that gun again. It appears that elite IPSC competition is dominated by the 1911 and the CZ 75. Now the question for me is whether the CZ 75 is really an alternative or just another version of the 1911. The CZ 75 is loosely based on the Browning Hi-power which is based on the 1911… Is the CZ 75 just another instance of the long reach of John Browning? On the other hand, even though the AK 47 uses some features of the M1 Garand, it would be quite incorrect to say that it is another version of the same rifle. The genius of Kalashnikov lay in finding the best starting point for his gun and then building on it. Just what is the nature of his contribution would be interesting to hear. Perhaps you would have to know a lot of technical information to engage in that conversation. But my guess is that it has to do with radical simplification. Garand’s design was so complicated that his contemporaries didn’t think it could be mass produced until he created the machinery to do it. Kalashnikov created something with comparable performance within combat distances that could be built in Third World workshops. But this would be another topic.
For the CZ 75, you wonder about the claim that the 1911 is the greatest handgun ever built. That is because of Browning’s virtuosity and the longevity of the design. But if the CZ 75 is the most popular military and law enforcement pistol in the world, maybe it could make the claim of being the greatest.
It appears that there are rifle and shotgun events in IPSC competition that go with the better known pistol competitions. Does anyone know what kind of guns are used in the rifle competition? That should say a lot just as the dominance of the AR in service rifle competition is significant. I had trouble finding information about common IPSC rifles, but I expect that the AR would excel.
Matt61
I thought females made better shooting students than males because they don’t already know what they’re supposed to be doing.
Reb,
Very funny, but in a good way. A long time shooter of firearms at work relayed this story…..another worker and his wife came over to the “longtime” shooter’s house to fire handguns. The male visitor is a bit of a “boaster and blowhard”. Neither the man or the wife did very well. The “longtime” shooter offered some advice on proper hand hold for a pistol. The man was not interested, while the wife was very eager to learn.
Long story, short,….the wife quickly out shot the husband, at which point, they left, and have not been back.
Bottom line, I think women listen better and have less of a tendancy to have over inflated ego’s.
When it comes to being told how to do something They’re almost always more receptive,therefore learn faster(” just something some old English guy said”) 🙂
Serves him right!
I’ve got a woman wanting me to teach her about airguns right now but her old man’s always working when it’s daylight and I wouldn’t blame him for being jealous. I’m harmless and would never try anything with someone else’s other half. But there goes another potential airgunner. smh
Reb,
Yeah,…(stay away) from that little “scenario”. At best, tell her to bring her “other” half,…… or no instruction.
Reb,
And,…. what the heck are you (doing with) OR (would want) …..with 36,000 B.B.’s?
That wasn’t me but if they’re lead I’ll take ’em!
If I catch ’em home on the weekend is the only way it’ll ever happen.
Appleseed instructors tell this kind of story all the time, Chris!
Calin,Lemme pick your brain for a moment?
My brother just bought a 10-22 in fairly rough shape. Any idea what I should keep an eye out for other than stovepipes? I told him that removing the barrel band would change the barrel’s harmonics and he looked at me like I was crazy but I think we’re gonna make it pretty again(he’s seen my 392 & QB-36 that I’ve redone the stocks on) and if it’s not accurate then that’s gotta be fixed. I know it’s supposed to be the other way around but it’s not my gun.
Reb
Reb, I don’t consider myself to be a 10-22 expert, but I’ve done some basic ‘smithing on them and I know about the extractor problem that can crop-up in relatively new guns. Unless this fairly rough rifle is a great shooter, I figure you have about even odds that the gun will shoot better or worse after changing anything that might affect harmonics. 😉 Even torquing a stock differently can do that! Maybe you did imply that it’s a great shooter. Then, hmm–like you said, it’s not your gun.
If this is one of the older rifles with the metal fire control group housing, I think you have a better starting point than a new one. In the end, if you can’t get it to shoot well, I think a new barrel might be the only major thing needed, but only time will tell. Personally, I think the older barrels were more hit and miss than today’s barrels, but there are so many good aftermarket barrels to choose from today too.
I’d tear it down! 😉 I suspect that you’re like me. I’ve never seen a gun that I didn’t want to tear apart and try to make it better! Actually, I feel that way about most mechanical things, I guess.
I honestly don’t know anything about the gun other than the stock looks weathered and the bluing is all but gone an the top of the receiver is aluminum and it’s missing the rear sight.I think I had a typo when I reported what he paid for it -$150.
That’s good jab at the junior sniper. My brother said he put some money down on a AK and I can’t wait to see it! I’ve shot .223 through M-16 and a Mini 14 but never a AK.
Glad to hear about the women doing well in shooting sports, they’re much more appealing than any male I’ve witnessed in a competition.
When I told a hunting buddy of mine that some Appleseed instructors say that women are better shooters than men (or at least women learn faster), my buddy replied, “but they just don’t enjoy it as much as we do!” 🙂
I guess I got spammed for sharing that little link.Oh,well!
Thank You B.B. or Edith!
Now I can join back in the conversation.
The 2400KT is in the building! They sent it in a rifle box sandwiched between 2 full length pieces of grey foam. I cocked and dry fired it a few times to see what the action felt like and what it felt like I could do with it. I don’t think I’m gonna be a trigger shoe type o’ guy so it’ll be coming off but at least I know now and didn’t have to spend $18.99 to find out and it’ll stay with the paperwork until I’m willing to try again.
For some reason unknown to me I heard a litlle piece of metal bouncing on the linoleumand found a itty bitty grub screw under a kitchen chair. Glad I didnt open it in my bedroom! It has loctite on it and so does the barrel band but I’m wondering why they would pull it back out after loctiting it and put it in the same bag as the instruction manual?! And I dropped it again when I took it to the bathroom for more light! I’d recommend anyone who orders one to open all packages over a hard clean surface!
I Can’t really tell what the trigger feels like with the shoe on but it’s a little stiff right now and the stock is a little loose, I’ll get some Co2 tomorrow and take it over to my buddy Terry’s to check it out a little better and get some shooting in. Wonder how much he’ll like this one? He offered me $300 for the Regal after one shot! And swore off Co2 in the ’70’s.
Reb
Whatever happened to the rest of this test?
Tim,
I have no idea. I see that I left off without going to 25 yards with the scoped rifle. Fortunately I still have it, so I’ll see what I can do.
B.B.