by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Daisy’s 1894 Western Carbine is a classic BB gun. This one is an NRA Centennial model.
This report covers:
• Preparation for firing
• Daisy Premium Grade BBs
• Crosman Copperhead BBs
• Hornady Black Diamond BBs
• How is the gun?
Let’s look at the velocity of my Daisy model 1894 BB gun. Several of you said you were glad to see this report, and I’m happy to do it for you. The 1894 is a BB gun I simply overlooked when it was available. All of you knew how nice it was, but until now I never had a clue.
Daisy advertised the 1894 as a 300 f.p.s. BB gun. That’s not too hot, but also not on the bottom. It’s a nice place to be if accuracy is all you’re concerned with, because 300 f.p.s. is enough to do everything you need.
I also mentioned this in Part 1, but it bears repeating. The 1894 lever is light enough to work while the gun remains on your shoulder. It cocks in both directions, which offsets the effort a little, I guess. Once cocked, though, the hammer has to be thumbed back manually to fire the gun.
The BB magazine is spring-loaded. You can cock the gun in almost any orientation, and it will still feed reliably. In fact, I have become entranced by watching the external follower lever pop back one BB every time the lever is returned home!
Preparation for firing
After the gun arrived, the first thing I did was oil it through the oil hole. I could see that there was fresh oil there already, so the seller must have done it, also. I haven’t oiled the gun since then, but there’s still a mist of oil with each shot. So, the plunger (piston head) is still well-oiled.
Before shooting this test, I shot the gun 3 times to “wake up” the piston head. That gives it a chance to start sealing as well as it can. I do that with other spring-piston pellet guns, too.
Daisy Premium Grade BBs
The first BB I tried was the Daisy Premium Grade BB. They averaged 292 f.p.s. with a velocity spread from 289 to 297 f.p.s. That’s very close to Daisy’s published velocity for the 1894.
Crosman Copperhead BBs
Next, I tried 10 Crosman Copperhead BBs. They averaged 298 f.p.s. with a spread from 295 to 301 f.p.s. Copperheads have always measured a little smaller than most premium BBs and therefore shoot just a little faster because they weigh a little less.
Hornady Black Diamond BBs
The final BB I tested was the new Hornady Black Diamond. These surprised me by averaging 304 f.p.s., with a low of 281 and a high of 306 f.p.s. There were 2 failures to feed with this BB, while the other 2 BBs fed fine.
How is the gun?
Based on these velocities, I think my 1894 is performing well. It may not be as fast as it was when new, but it is acceptibly close. I found a lot of talk on the internet about this model drying up and hardening over the years until it had to be rebuilt, but that is not what I found with this one.
I said this back in Part 1, and it bears repeating: I really like the feel of the 1894! I’m surprised it took me so long to finally get one of my own. For some reason, I feel this gun is going to be very accurate — and a number of readers agree. But one reader said it isn’t that accurate, so we’ll have to wait and see how this one does.
The pull of the buttstock is about 13-1/4 inches, which is nearly identical to the Winchester 1894 firearm. I guess that was the idea. Of course, the BB gun weighs much less than the firearm, but the size is just right. That helps with the feel of the gun when you shoot, and that, in turn, inspires confidence.
The single-stage trigger is not adjustable. It breaks at 3 lbs., 5 oz. pretty consistently. The act of cocking the hammer sets the trigger to fire, and you can see it move into position. For an inexpensive BB gun, this trigger is a lot nicer than you’d expect.
I can’t wait to shoot this gun for accuracy! I think it’s going to do very well. I certainly hope so.
133 thoughts on “Daisy 1894 Western Carbine: Part 2”
Sounds like a nice gun. I’ll keep an eye out for one.
In the second to last paragraph you write, “The pull of the buttstock is about 13-1/4 inches, which is nearly identical to the Winchester 1984 firearm.”
Did you mean Winchester “1894” firearm?
Oops! Make that third to the last paragraph.
I guess I did! 😉
I guess I am going to have to break down and get me a BB gun. It would be kind of nice to have a rapid shooter to help fend off a pack of feral soda cans on a sunny weekend afternoon.
“Feral soda cans”,..smile,…I believe that Gunfunn1 has mentioned that he has the very same problem in his own backyard.
Have not seen any in Ohio yet, but then it’s -2 degrees here, so I figure they are in hibernation.
If they are not hibernating around here right now, they are at least hunkered down inside their dens.
Feral soda cans?! I just took out a bunch in my backyard here in Tx this past summer.
Soda cans are easy. On a hot summer day the feral beer cans tend travel in overwhelming numbers.
I’ve seen many packs of feral beer cans running around in my area.
The beer around my place doesn’t come in cans, although I have been seriously thinking of shooting some full, hot, shook up beer cans.
Yep,…bottles only! I’m thinking more of a shook up soda/pop can. I don’t drink pop anyways. The older ya’ get, the harder it is to keep off.
We don’t drink soda either. We do drink a good bit of flavored fizzy water in cans.
I had a couple of cases of soda someone had given us and I was planning on have a lot of fun in the spring, but my wife gave them to the kids. 🙁
I’m getting a pack of those lined up right now!
If you are looking for a rapid shooter BB gun take a look at the Umarex Morph. I got one for my daughter and she loves it. So do I. It is CO2 gun that can be changed into several different configurations from pistol, to carbine, to rifle. It is smooth bore but accurate out to 10 yards and fairly accurate at 20 yards. We normally get about 80 good shots per CO2 cartridge.
I should have added that we did put on a red/green dot sight to help my old eyes. Also, BB did a 5 part review of this gun a while back that was one of the deciding factors in purchasing the Morph.
I was thinking more along the lines of a Daisy 99. If I was going to fool with CO2, I would have to get the M712 or maybe the Webley Mk 6.
The M712 looks like it would be a lot of fun and would certainly be death to cans.
Let’s try this again. I wrote you a lengthy answer, but it disappeared into the nether world.
I seriously considered one, but knew that I would soon be bored with it. Yeah, it would be a blast to shred some cans with it on occasion, but I am more into long range shooting and mini-sniping.
I would like to get a Daisy 99 because that was the BB rifle that became the 499. They are pretty accurate and are multi-shot. There are also some tuning tricks you can do to them and make them on par with the 499.
I hear the 25 was accurate and powerful but the pumping action wasn’t for me, I woulda had to shoot it lefty, pumping with my right but the 99 was what I thought I was buying when I sent my parents with the money($13) I’d saved for a RedRyder circa ’75
We share a very similar thought process, I bought a pristine 99 thinking it could be as accurate as the 499 and not have to bother with loading it one at a time. But no such luck. The biggest change to improve it was by simply putting the rear aperture sight from the 499 on the 99, but it was still not quite as good. I also tried the 1894 here too, which is a fun little piece. I do love playing cowboy.
But it is foolhardy to think the 1894’s oversized open sights will result in tiny groups no matter what the inherit accuracy of the rifle might be.
So unless you just want the journey, I would not waste the time with the 99.
I have been pondering what to get to satisfy my “lever action fixation”. At least untill a good 1894 replica comes along. I keep looking at whats out there and I keep coming back to the 499. And for a verified accurate shooter, who can argue with the price.
I wonder if there are any power plant “tunes” that can be done to the 499?
If you are referring to noise that’s an interesting thought, since the 499 has the most “springy” sound of any BB gun I have shot. However I have never attempted to quite it down. It’s not loud, just twangy. I suppose I could add some of Jim’s tar to the spring and see what happens, but that will slow it down and it’s not too fast to begin with – although my specimen beats the advertised rating. I doubt you can power one up? It is actually faster than the 99 was also by a couple fps, possibly due to the fact it was 30-40 years old.
My biggest complaint is waiting for the BB to role down the barrel, certainly The Rifleman never contended with such an annoyance.
In reality my favorite level guns are all powder burners since there really isn’t too much in the way of pellet gun alternatives. My Browning BL-22 has risen to the top lately with its ability to shoot all .22 ammo – short, long, long rifle, CB caps, subsonic – you name it. (Other than the BB caps that are primer only and not recommend in any rifle as they may not clear the barrel)
No need to worry about an ammo shortage with that versatile girl in the rack. It’s only real negative is the price point, but you get what you pay for in most cases.
Yea,..I was talking about a “power tune”. And the bb roll down “wait” seems like a bit of a let down. When I get one, it may be my first “tune”. I suppose that on lower end air guns, things might be spot welded or pressed and crimped,..things that are harder to re-do, once un-done.
I’ll bet there is someone who reads this blog that has been inside one. I do believe that B.B. commented to me awhile back,.. “that you could not wear one out in 2 life times”, so they must be made pretty well.
There are no tunes for a 499. The only thing that can be done it to improve the trigger pull.
Thank you. Valued info. Shoot as is. When I get one, I may hit you up on the trigger improvement.
I want to get the free shipping, so with the 499 and 4 more tins of pellets, that ought to do it. I’m 400 pellets into the 1450 I got with the TX. So far, JSB 15.89 and Falcon 13.43 seem to group the best. My skills,…still working on that.
Any recommendations would be a “sold”, but as you say,..”you have to find what your particular gun likes”. Are you sure you don’t have stock in a lead company? 🙂
Edith was right,….why fight it?….I’m “hooked”!
I’m not the guy for the 499 trigger job. But do a search for it and you’ll find several coaches who have posted instructions. My trigger is still stock.
Now, you can relax and enjoy the rest of the ride 🙂
The 99 was the BB gun used in competition before the 499. What they would do is order extra barrels from Daisy and replace the barrels until they found one that gave them the best accuracy. Daisy caught on to what they were doing and introduced the 499.
The thing to do now is acquire a 99 and order a 499 barrel from Daisy.
Actually, there was a 299 that proceeded the 499. It was even more of a dedicated target gun, but still had the loose production barrel that had to be accommodated. They are relatively scarce, because the 499 was brought out just a few years later.
Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing a 299 for sale before.
Like I had said, with a BB gun I am not going to get overly concerned with accuracy. If I can regularly hit a soda can at 10 – 20 yards without using a bunch of windage guessing, I will be happy.
Yes, I would like a BB gun build like a decent pellet rifle, but the only way that is going to happen is if I do such myself.
Also, I have had a Red Ryder and the sights are not adjustable for windage, while the peep on the 99 is to an extent. Besides, you only need so much accuracy to kill feral soda cans at ten yards. 😉
Glad to hear that you like the “feel” of the gun. It makes me smile to see you “discover” the rifle that was the youth gun for so many of your readers, me included. Enjoy!
You had mentioned that your “gift 1894” was now a basket case, but you did not elaborate, and had sent/gave it to a Daisy specialist. It puzzled me, as I’m sure it did other readers, as to why you did not attempt repairs/restoration on your own. What you found, what conditions and how that influenced your decision. Of course, that would have delayed the report. At any rate, just curious.
I did attempt to repair the gun. Hence the basket case.
I know where you are.
‘Nuff said. 🙂
Comment to you did not post, thanks.
BB, Speaking of BB guns, I have a Crosman V350. It still shoots but the magazine doesn’t work correctly. I can single load it but if I load a number of bb’s they either want to roll out the barrel or shoot more than one at a time. Do you know how the mag works? Is there a fix for this? I understand the the mechanism is similar to Crosman’s M-1 carbine.
The V-350 is identical to the M1 Carbine on the inside.
It’s been 20 years since I’ve been inside one, but as I recall there is a light leaf spring that controls the feeding of the BBs.
Thanks BB, I will check that out.
As I recall, It lies lengthways, inside the BB feed tube. And there is something at the end that prevents more than one BB from feeding per time.
Hmm, seems my last post went into the spam filter (I tried to post some images)…
Yes, it went to spam and didn’t even get caught. Went right to the trash.
I did some necessary maintenance on my 40-year-old Feinwerkbau 300S some days ago (New springs, piston ring, seals). It took me some time, but I managed to get it back together 🙂
I shot some groups, of course, including my personal best so far (not sure if it’s because of the maintenance, my increasing skill or both):
This was shot at 9 meters from a sitting position with the rifle rested on a photo tripod with some cushioning on it. I used the original target diopter sights.
As a comparison, here’s what I did with the Diana Panther 31 (34 to you), using the stock 175 m/sec ( 575 feet/sec) spring. I used a cheap 4×32 scope and the rifle has some added weight in the stock.:
I guess this is not the best both rifles can do. A good shot like BB would probably get tighter groups. For me, at this point, it’s pretty ok 🙂
You can see all comments on this post here:
I do not like posting “true confessions”, but I feel I must. I have really enjoyed my Colt Commander co2 pistol. Bear in mind that the base of this pistol is the same as for a few others like the Tanfoglio Witness 1911, the Remington 1911 RAC and the Black Water BW1911 R2, among others.
Recently, I noticed it was more difficult to insert the co2 cartridge into the magazine. But, I still could so I did. Last evening, it seemed even more difficult. I looked at the piercing pin/port and noted the tool notches. I turned it a bit clockwise. Then I inserted a co2 cartridge. It seemed a bit more difficult, but I was undeterred. Nothing succeeds like success.
When I tried to remove the cartridge from the magazine it proved to be really difficult. Only when I succeeded did I learn the cartridge had been pierced. It shot off like a slug and narrowly missed my cat (who decided it was time to go outside for a while).
The threaded port is turned counter-clockwise to tighten it. Although it had come completely out, I was able to reinsert it. All seems well, but I do wish I were more perceptive. ~ken
Probably, so does your cat. 🙂
Fred, I am sure your are correct. He did come back in for the night though after a couple of hours outside.
Glad the cat is ok,…I have a Beretta 92FS made by Umerex. While I have not had your problem, I have noticed the brass thumb wheel got harder and harder to turn. I immediately suspected “galvanization”, because the wheel is brass and the metal it threads into is a pot metal looking metal. Some “never seize” and working it up and down took care of the hard turning. As mentioned before, a poor pairing of metals. The wheel is what takes up the slack before the lever on the butt is pushed up and pierces the 12G CO2 cartridge.
I will have to take a look at the “piercing” end to see if there are any issues.
Chris, the pairing of metals is yet another thing to be mindful of and I appreciate your mentioning it. ~ken
Yep that anti-seize is some slick stuff! I’s the best thing I’ve run across to keep stuff from sticking together and I’ve never seen any evidence of it contaminating rubber but. beware it gets everywhere!
YES it does!,…use at work on stainless to stainless applications.
Shooters of Co2 guns particularly should keep a sharp eye out for this problem. The more ya shoot’em the colder they get which means they’ll have to warm back up to ambient temps, increasing the static charge hat welds their parts together and condensing moisture for a “near perfect” conductor.
@BB: Thanks for retrieving it 🙂
BTW, the 1 cent coin I used as a comparison has a diameter of 1.67 cm or 0.65″ 🙂
I looked at the top image which was a very good group anyone should be proud o. Time to back up and see how far out they’ll hold together.
@Reb: 9m is the maximum distance possible at the moment. I can of course shoot offhand if I want to challenge myself and not the rifle 🙂
I’ve got an unrelated question. Is it normal for a PCP rifle to lose pressure after long term storage? Things happened this year, preventing me from using my Benji Synthrod for about 10 or 11 months. It sat in the safe with the tank filed to about 1500-1800 psi. I finally got a chance to take it out yesterday and the tank reads 0. I’m concerned that the tank had a leak at the time of purchase or, as a result of what I’ve done, now has one. Any advice?
Thanks for your help,
You aren’t going to like my answer but here goes. Some do and some don’t. If the leak is very slow (takes a month or longer to bleed down)even the best airgunsmiths may not be able to find and correct it.
While is can be a pinhole in a seal or a small piece of dirt, it might also be a tiny imperfection in the steel parts that allows air to leak out a few atoms at a time.
While I have many PCP’s that absolutely never leak, I have owned a couple that did leak slowly this way.
You’re right, knowing my rifle is and always will be afflicted with a slow leak doesn’t exactly warm my heart. I guess if I shoot it often enough I won’t notice or mind. Thanks for the response.
Off subject but air gun related.
What ever came about with the Crosman $100 pcp.
Is it alive?
I was supposed to have put that in the SHOT Show report. Crosman rep, Chip Hunnicutt, told me they are VERY interested in a “low-cost PCP.” Their problem is coming up with a hand pump for one. I gave him a few ideas and we’ll see what happens.
Thanks. I was hoping that somebody was still giving it a thought.
I hope it happens.
Just patiently waiting
I browsed through a pawnshop today and found a closeout on paintball guns. Saw one marked $8.99, VL Triton II. When I asked what it would take to get me out the door the manager came up from the back and told me $5. I was only looking to see if I could get a barrel for my Tippman 98C but I didn’t see much wrong with it other than it had no hopper and hadn’t been tested due to lack of Co2(little did they know but I’d tested these guns before the pawnshop ever saw them and the only ones that didn’t work were the ones missing too many parts. It’s about as well built a gun(externally anyway)as my 98C but that $5 cost me 20 for Co2 & another 20 for powder balls(meant to get the reusable foam balls but I’ll look better next time.
I got my homemade “mono-pod” done last night. I made it from a paint roller extension handle. If you go http://www.shurline.com you see the one I used and has a video. What is nice is that you can adjust the height from 29″~61″ with the push of a (single button). No twist locks. And, it is styled very nice. 19$ at the local Lowe’s. It extends 32″ with only 16″ of movement with it’s unique design.
The hardest thing was what to put on top for a rest. I ended up using a 3/4″ slice of 3″ heavy alum. conduit, cut out the top of the ring for 2 3/4″ opening and drilled a hole in the bottom for 1/4″ bolt. I drilled and tapped the screw end of the stick to 1/4-20.
The adjustment holes in the stick are about 3″ apart. 80mm. to be exact. I then drilled 3 additional holes between them. Final result was adjustment points every 3/4″, or 20mm. to be exact.
The top rest rotates 360 degrees with slight resistance. I jammed a 6″ piece of soft plastic tubing through the eye on the butt end of the stick for additional stability under foot.
Of course, there are any number of materials one could use. But the stick is a (very solid) base from which to start. The misc. items I got at work.
And as B.B. has demonstrated, it works very well. I would say, 95% as solid as a bench rest.
I like what your talking about.
But I do have to say that I have found that BB’s mono-pod actually works better with a bi-pod.
Both legs help to keep the pod from rolling. With the two legs latched together it has more area to stabilize on your leg. Plus its easier to anchor the two legs with your opposite foot. Its very,very stable using BB’s hold with a bipod verses a mono-pod.
Suppose to say BB’s mono-pod hold.
Yeah, it turned out quite nice and looks good too. Did you go to the Shurline to see the stick in action? The one button feature is sweet and the added holes were really needed.
I did shoot, two 5 shot groups, off a 5 gal. bucket, using the mono-pod this morning. The groups were 20 and 23mm. Two rested groups shot just before as a “warm-up,” measured 25 and 17mm., so performance is close.
I can see where the folded bi-pod would have some advantages. My foot end is stable, but the leg rest part does have a tendency to want to slide on jeans. A tight hold helps as well as gripping the “fork” AND the forend. Twisting the 360 degree head, so the the forks sides contact the forend, also helps.
I only have 10 shots with the mono-pod, so I still need to practice a lot more. The bucket, the gun and the mono-pod will be the “set-up” for heading out into the woods. Got -10 degrees actual temp. here now, so indoors will have to do for now.
Made a comment but it did not post. Was a description of my homemade mono-pod. I referred to a web page, but did not link it. Perhaps it was enough to set off the filter. Thanks, Chris
Hey fellow spring piston fans I’m looking for your opinions.
Last night I ordered a Diana 54 Air King .22 cal. It will be about 3 weeks until delivery because part of the package bundle was out of stock. It gives me some time to think about scopes.
I hear that this rifle is a scope eater and wonder if the Bushnell Banner 4-12×40 AO is going to last very long.
What scopes have you found that will hold up to the task?
Congratulations on your purchase! Kind of a slow day on the site here. I can say with fair certainty that Pyramid would not pair a breakable scope with your gun. My understanding is that many scopes of many brands are airgun rated now. They should say that in their product description. Pyramid has a great return policy should anything happen. When you get it, shoot it.
It is pretty well known that “packages” often contain scopes that the distributor is trying to get rid of. You pay up for optics quality, single lens coating, etc. Side A.O. is a nice feature as well.
Sorry,…meant Kansas Heat,…not Brent.
I’d talk to GunFun1 if I wanted to know anything about a 54 but I’m sure he ha a Hawke on his and probably a couple Leapers but someone said the Tasco’s are tough too. Any scope rated for spingers ideally should do well. I’ll let someone else put in their $.02 as my big springer has an obsolete Gamo 50mm on it. I figure it’s gotta be tough!
You know one of the reasons that Gamo scope keeps ticking.
It has a etched glass reticle.
I have witnessed a couple broken wire reticules before and opened them up enough to find that to be the problem So that’s two less things to go wrong. Thanks for showing me why people spend so much on good glass!
I would see all scopes going to the etched reticle in the future. Other than a mfgrs. ability to convert over, or lack of, it only makes sense. One less thing to break.
I do suppose that “patent rights” might prevent some mfgrs. from using it though.
Cool you will be surprised I believe of how accurate that 54 is.
And I have had a bunch of air guns and the old brain is starting to not rember well. But I believe it was a Bushnell Banner that spent time on the most on that gun.
But just recently before I sold it I know I definatly had a Hawke varmint scope on it with the half mildot reticle. Maybe about 4 months I believe the Hawke was on the 54.
I used the Hawke scopes on other spring and nitro guns but probably the longest time they spent on guns is my pcp guns.
I haven’t had any fail yet and the reason I like them is the precise aim points that the half mildot reticle gives. And they have a clear sharp sight picture. And another thing is the consistency between all 6 scopes I have. They all focus and range find true.
But as far as how long they last on a spring gun I can’t seem to keep any for a long, long time to find out. I’m going to with the TX and the LGU but they have so little recoil so that may not be the same.
Although I do have a FWB 300s that works on the same principal as the 54. But it is less powerful than the 54. And again the Hawke scope ain’t been on that long.
But some of my Hawke scopes have been on multiple guns over at least 3 years now and no failure’s yet. I do like the Hawke scopes though.
And Buldawg found out that they have bigger turret housings then some scopes when he was trying to mount one in a droop mount. And that is something to think about if you got a gun that has a magazine. You might have less mounting adjustment forward and backwards.
Well a lot said but no help for how long they will last.
Oh and maybe that bigger turret housing helps contribute to the scopes quality.
Maybe the components are bigger and stand up betterin the turret.
I like the fact that i t should have more clearance from the outer housing with all the vibration of some springers, that should come in handy
Any chance they could put a small nitro piston in a lever gun and allow single loading of pellets as well as BB’s. I would be interested in a lever gun like that for around $100-150. Would be great for plinking.
Of course anything is possible, but the last time something like this was done, the guns sold for $400 in the early 1990s. Read about them here:
These rifles now bring over $500. Adding a gas spring would increase the cocking effort by 50 percent, I think.
From my limited knowledge I’m sure it would be substantial. but they don’t have to push the fill pressure of the piston so close to the it’s limit either “55 Saves lives” and fuel. If I had fill equipment I’d lower the recoil and cocking effort of my Regal to a more comfortable level and make it last longer, dial it in for accuracy while at it. I’m gonna have to build a bench an soft-jawed vise before I do much more modding.
I found that the bolt handle on my “new to me” VL Triton II had drifted mostly out and re-engaged it with the hammer. Now it cycles beautifully but I can’t find the tube of pellgun oil and the seals are dry so I’m done until I get some.
Aren’t ya’ll proud of me for actually buying pellgun oil instead of using my normal substitutes? The last time I went to shoot my 392 I could tell it Had been contaminated by the 2nd stroke.And driving those roll-pins out ain’t gonna be fun with one hand. I’d try the tranny fluid sealer but I’m sure that would lead to a black gummy mess that would increase the effort required for complete disassemble and proper rebuild.
Very nice link. I had never thought about a longer cocking lever for leverage. Nice design lines as well. Much better than a Co2 as it self contained. Throw in the 8 round mag. like the Walther and you have a hands down winner. But please, anything but all black.
The picture is B&W. The rifle has a brown wood stock.
Thank you. I was refering to the metal work as on the Walther and perhaps the one in the article. If that butt stock was smaller and different color on the metal I can pretty safely say that I would have bought the Walther before anything else. I do love the the TX though.
I would gladly pay 300~400$ for a rifle like the Erma ELG. Self contained, no C02.
Just got back from sifting through my email.
Cool ad by PA for a valentines day!
On the question of long-term goals and what one ultimately wants out of life, I’m wondering if my shooting destiny involves the world bb gun championships at 5 yards! Is that only for kids and would they resent a middle-aged adult?
This Daisy bb gun reminds me of the first firearm in our family, a Winchester 1894. My Dad who knew nothing about guns bought the rifle in the late 70s at a sporting goods store for $99 as a good bargain. Then it sat around gathering rust for 30 years until I got interested in shooting. Now, it is no longer made and new manufactures are only available as collectors’ editions over $1000. Clueless as my Dad was, I don’t think any gun expert could have made a more prescient purchase than getting the classic firearm at such a bargain price. Those ergonomics are truly astounding as they are for other Browning guns. I guess a designer could get a lot of value just by copying the proportions of the 1894. It’s not unlike the way the Chinese have apparently copied a lot of the capabilities of the F-35 just from its shape even without the advanced equipment inside.
Reb, regarding the bullet impact discussion, thanks. FTW! 🙂 Gunfun1, what do you suppose would be the difference between the impact of a .45 ACP at point blank range versus 60 yards? For myself, I would guess not that much. The round traverses that difference almost instantaneously. My sense is that with this gun/cartridge combo, the problem at distance is more of hitting the target than doing damage. While it would lose some velocity, especially compared to flat shooting cartridges, I don’t think the target would notice. As an example, handgun legend Elmer Keith was told by army officers that they wouldn’t consider him a threat at a 100 yards with a 1911. 🙂 Using a rested Creedmoor position, Keith proceeded to demolish a snow mound at 250 yards with a single magazine. But here your ballistics calculator would be the best source in finding the exact changes to kinetic energy at different distances.
I didn’t mention the ice pick phenomenon of bullet strike in the note you responded to, but in my post of the previous day, I did describe how green-tipped 5.56 ammo for the M4 had zipped through enemy combatants with apparently no effect. And in my note that you responded to, I did speculate on how a .45 ACP bullet at much higher than normal velocity might actually have less knockdown power. If you dial down the bullet size to match the increased velocity, the picture extrapolates to the same situation, so I was dealing with the ice pick phenomenon implicitly.
Since I raised the question how a high velocity bullet could fail to cause hydrostatic shock, it is only fair to test the new ideas against it. I think the key is the mode of transmission of kinetic energy, and the fundamental factors of mass and time are both involved. First with a small bullet of a narrow profile and a high ballistic coefficient, the energy is focused more forward. Pressure = Force/Area. So the narrower profile increases pressure forward and the bullet obliterates what’s in its path even more destructively. The difference is out of the range of our sensual perception since a hole is just a hole. But the extra energy goes forward blasting out the hole more cleanly rather than going sideways into the body. Physics would call this the energy minimization principle. In conversation, we would call this following the line of least resistance, but it amounts to the same thing. We see this all the time with lower powered airguns that cut a bigger more ragged hole compared to higher powered guns that punch out something smaller and cleaner. If this difference is visible across the width of a sheet of paper, you can imagine the compounded effect through an animal body.
Regarding time, the energy transfer from a bullet to its surroundings seems instantaneous, but it actually does take some finite time. If it were truly instant that would violate the action-at-a-distance principle and be magical. It takes a small amount of time for a billiard ball to absorb the impact of another billiard ball and convert the energy into forward motion. If you imagine many billiard balls at an unimaginably small scale crashing into each other, you can imagine the rapid but finite speed at which the pressure wave propagates through the body. If a small enough bullet is moving fast enough, there simply isn’t time for the energy to transfer outwards from the wound channel to do damage before the bullet has exited. The airgun example of rounded and ragged holes is an example. To review the spectrum of possibilities. A bullet might move slowly enough that the accompanying pressure wave interacts with rigid structures to push them in a collision. Going faster, it tears through the structures rather than moving them. Faster yet, there is no time for the pressure wave to propagate, so you have your small high velocity bullet punching through with a clean hole and little or no surrounding damage.
B.B. and Edith, alas, I thought that the Marauder had risen above physical principles but I suppose that the differences between a one-shot receiver and a magazine design still apply. 🙂 Yes, B.B., I thought that your consistency qualification might be important. The question for me would be why the Talon is consistently better. Is it the magazine design difference or the manufacturing quality of Air Force? The fact that some Marauders shoot better than the Air Force guns is actually a little disturbing. If there is that much variation from the norm that is better our model of statistical distribution suggests there must be an equal number that are worse. 🙁
The Talon SS is made to a higher standard than the Marauder. First and foremost, its Lothar Walther barrel is superior to most Marauder barrels, though every once in awhile a Marauder barrel comes through that is really good. But the Lothar Walther barrels are always up to a very high standard.
That doesn’t mean the Marauders aren’t good, because they are. The Talon SS is just consistently better. At least that has been my observation. It has nothing to do with single shot versus repeater. It’s all about the consistency of the build.
And that’s why I say that its important to know what effect a projectile will have on the object it impacts at different distances.
The hole on the back side of a object hit at point blank range will definitely be different then the hole at any distance afterwards to the point that the projectile doesn’t make it threw.
Quick question,… I see replies to my comments show up in my “in box”,…can I reply from my e-mail and have it show back up on the blog? Some replies are from blogs that are weeks old, and it would be nice to reply straight from the e-mail, so as the person did not feel they were being ignored, especialy if they asked a question.
Also, I replied to Gunfunn above on the mono-pod but it did not post. Please let me know if I am doing anything wrong. I do use “in-private” setting, as it greatly reduces the amount of stuff found with the Norton 360 upon shutdown.
First of all, I took that comment out of the spam filter and posted it an hour ago.
Next, you cannot just use your email to post comments. Click on the link at the bottom of your email to go to the correct post, and if you want to find the comment you are responding to, copy part of the message and paste it into the find field of your browser.
I have to do the same thing
Well Thanks Chris & B.B.! I’ve been trying to figure out how to use that link to go directly to the comment I’m trying to read or respond to instead of sifting through the whole comment section. I tried it the same way Chris did for the longest time then tried going to their email then going to each blog entry and looking through ’til I found it, sometimes. I’ll try that trick!
Thank you both. Seems like two ways to do the same thing. Notes made and will give it a try in the future.
Here is what I do….
When I get an e-mail, I go to the Blog and click on “comments rss” . this takes me to a listing of comments in order from the most recent . I find the one I am looking for and click on the green arrow at the top of the comment. It takes me right to it in the right blog.
Then just click on “reply” and make the reply.
I’ll try that one next, didn’t have good luck with the copy & paste.
Thanks Two Talon!
I just responded to you the same way that I described to Chris.
Still workin’ on it.
But I didn’t see any green arrows. All I saw were purple or black.
Are you color blind by any chance, or is your computer screwed ?
If you see a little arrow in the top of the post that is the wrong color, then click on it anyway. It works.
Computer’s definitely seen better days! So have I!
Looks like we’re gonna catch some snow. It’ll probably just be a slushy mess but we’ll get to watch it fall. Wish I wasn’t so intolerant of the cold but my feet stay frozen unless I’m in front of a heater or under my electric blanket.
Got my share of problems too. Know what it’s like.
You had cancer didn’t you? Good job!
How long ya been in remission now?
Found it in 09 . They killed it. But the chemo leaves some less than desirable after effect like circulation problems and nerve damage.
I’ll bet! My Step-Dad made it outta brain surgery for it which set him back a lot but I think the chemo & radiation treatments did at lest that much damage again and then he started having strokes…
Meant to spell check.
Keep up the good work!
Maybe it’s time to get checked again but my tests for school showed no indications, same for the exams required for military service. A lot’s happened in 30 years!
I know I had to close out to get that stuff off my screen. It was way too distracting to concentrate on writing with all that down there. I do have visual impairments such as photo-sensitivity and blurry vision accompanied by headache.
Maybe your monitor is out of adjustment. You get some strange colors if it’s set wrong.
Possible, but the arrows seemed to be captioned for different purposes such as link etc. Ishoulda tried to describe what I saw while it was on my screen but my head started hurting.
I’ll try again in the future.
I said I would let you know if I saw any more shows where bear were bow hunted near a bait/feed station. On the “Pursuit” channel last night there was such a show,..and not the same one I saw before. The show was “Big E TV” and filmed in Brunswick, Canada. 3 bears were shot, separately, within a (yard) of a bait/feed station. 2 were recovered, 1 never was.
The more I thought about it,… minus the bait station,…I would think that from a tree stand would be the only “sane” way of hunting bear with a bow. But,..don’t bears climb trees pretty well? I do not think that ground tracking a bear with only a bow would be an option. I see the bear getting tired of being followed, charging the hunter,.. and the rest would not be very pretty.
In the future, I’ll just skip over such shows.
Yep them bears make pretty quick work of that 1st 15-20 up a tree that’ll support them! Quicker than any man I’ve ever seen. I might’ve given them a run for their money 40 yrs ago but those days are long gone.
Heayaah Reb, you mentioned looking for a paintball barrel and I have a pretty good one lying around, has spiral venting and a pretty cool ported muzzle, its I think 14″ or so. Im in the process of moving ( thus the M.I.A.age, but in a short while I’ll be back on track with being able to check in here. In the meantime, if you want when I get q chance I can send it your way, might be a couple weeks though but if you do let me know.
RifleDNA, Good to hear from you again!
I was looking for one to fit my Tippman 98 custom and saw a deal that looked decent enough so I asked for a “out the door price” and got another discount, knocking the deal down to $5. Don’t recall that tactic working that well before?! But then it was $20 for Co2 and another $20 for ammo If you got one that’ll fit the 98 my search would be done but I’ll probably still snatch up some of the better deals, someone should be able to wring decent power outta their valves for pellet propulsion. Seems I’ve gotta couple Spyders too but I was gonna try my hand at a .22 Roundball repeater.Sounds like a nice one,what does it fit?
Really?,…..you could climb a tree faster than a bear? 🙂 I’ll bet that I would give it one heck of a try if it were me.
My X-sister in law got chased up a pine tree by a moose in Colorado. Out jogging. So much for keeping healthy huh? She was rescued by a passing driver which drove up to tree, chasing off the moose, she jumped down onto the SUV and was “rescued”.
At 7 years old I was a tree climbing Demon! But going too far out on a limb put an end to that shortly thereafter. Falling 12′ on top of a 4″ Mesquite limb on your butt will slow ya down for a while!
Thanks for this update.
Just made my first test shooting into “duct seal”. TX200III in .22, Four, 1″ thick x2″ x6″ blocks,..stood on end ( 4″ thick target).
I used the lightest and heaviest pellets I have,..Air Arms Falcon,13.43 (AND) H+N Barracuda Match, 21.14,…both domed.
The AA went 5/8″ deep and compressed perfectly into what appears to be half height.
The H+N went 3/4″ deep and barely deformed at all.
I expected better penetration. This is at 41′, indoors.
Does this sound right? Anyone that has some “duct seal “experience is (strongly) encouraged to comment.
Sounds about right to me.
Duct seal is not all that great for expansion or penetration tests. It IS good for stopping pellets.
Thanks for the reply. I was worried…..sounds like I got some back stop material!
I read where it was good for penetration and deformation test,…so me,…being me,…I had to try it.
Lead deformation is of most interest. There should be a test where you could drop a 1# weight from a 1′ distance and check the (before) and (after) pellet height!
That speaks directly to pellet expansion and lead composition, (hardness/softness).
Duct seal will mash up those hard Crosman pellets . The skirt will end up in the head .
Duct seal does not provide much of a representation of real life terminal ballistics on game . The texture and density is just wrong.
If you used a bread pan for a mould to make a block of jello , then shot the jello block lengthwise….you would probably shoot clear through it. So that is not right either…it’s the other extreme of wrong.
Real ballistic jel would be what you want . Maybe stick a bunch of small bones in it for realism.
Nice, very nice. I’m sure there is a “recipe” for ballistic gelatin. I’ll just have to search it. Use enough Knox gelatin and you can make a pretty dense block.
Ground hogs are the goal, but I want to know the “specifics” (before) “going there”.
I have plugged my share of chucks. Most with an airgun has been with a Talon (about 30 fpe) and Kodiaks.
They are hard to kill even with a head shot. Forget body shots on the big ones.
Smack them right between the eye and ear as squarely as possible to prevent the pellet from deflecting.
I still am at odds with which way to go for pellets…
Hard pellets like Crosman, or heavy pellets like Kodiak/Baracuda .
Keep in mind that I am using considerably more power than you will get out of your TX.
750 vs 950, (in .22),… and only the best shoot will do….something to think about. Very hard.
At what range??? Many,.. come up into the front yard at 25′. Pop out a top window, got a rest on the bottom window, and never leave the AC,…3 ft’ from where I am now writing. Sound like “redneck” or what? 🙂
Really though,..at what range for the TX would you recommend?
I try to keep it within 25 yds . Come to think of it, I try to keep squirrel that close too.
If you are shooting down out a window, you might catch them facing your direction with their head down getting a big mouth full of grass. Square in the top of the head will work . You need to hit as square on the skull as possible . I have hit a few with just a bit too much angle and got deflection. Stuns them for a couple seconds before they run off. Probably does not kill them, but it makes them a lot smarter.
I really liked the effects of 1,500 fpe with home brew .429 sabot hollowpoints on them (.50 Knight) . No question about a kill.
Nice reply and full of info. Thank you. My 25ft. seems pretty safe to your 25 yd. recomendation.
Maybe a “Texan”??? I would do it in a minute but I’ll be darned if if I’m hand pumping a gun OR spending 1000$+ on a compressor.
Work is early and still got to eat,..so I’m “outa’here”.
Great talking with ya’ and thanks for all the insight!
Someone else here had talked about wanting to try some Polymags on them to see if the hard tip would help it dig in but I never heard any results, what testing I’ve seen shows they can be accurate. the closest we have around here are small ground squirrels unless you count the Armadillo 🙂
RifleDNA uses penetration testing instead of a Chrony sometimes. He’d probably be the best person to talk to about that unless Vana2 chimes in.
It was me wrote that above, forgot to check in to the hotel airgunfornia.
I just wasn’t gonna buy a brand new barrel for the 98 just to cut it up to build my .22 barrel with when they run $100 or so. Now I gotta get more pellgun oil and a hopper. someone pulled the bolt handle out too far for it to enage the hammer but that only took a flashlight and about 15 secs to figure out so I got a nice PB gun for those long shots so I don’t have to walk so much to read my target. It was the .43 pistols that got me started on ’em again.
I muzzle loaded a marble in it yesterday and shot it into my comforter. I’m just wondering if they’ll feed through a hopper because I have a dozen steelies, they’re a little smaller but I’d try them anyway if the glass ones feed.If the sun ever comes back out I’ll get some Chrony specs.
Just found the pellgun oil and pulled the bolt on the triton II. got it soaking now!
I muzzle loaded a marble in it yesterday and shot it into my comforter while it was loosely balled up. worked like a champ!
ok, so i have 2 items I’m looking for info on. I recently acquired a model 1894, plastic stock, wonderful condition, minus a few scratches here n there from use. It was def used as a shooter and will continue to be. problem is, that I cannot find hardly any information about it. why is daisy so secretive about there dates? or if not secretive, why can you not date a daisy gun unless you purchased it brand new? anyway, it is rogers Arkansas with reg no. J405481. when i engage the lever it half cocks the hammer, then I have to full cock myself…is this how its supposed to function? what would be a value on this???
2nd item, Benjamin model 137 pistol. plastic, whitish painted handles, tootsie roll wood grip on pump. serial Number #B116118 which looked to date to 1969? on the date graph. the black nickle is gone and down to the silver nickle. only has about an inch worth of brass slightly starting to show through on top of barrel.pumps, holds air and shoots perfectly. est value?
Welcome to the blog.
This report you are commenting to is part of a 3-part report. The answers to some of your questions like the cocking are in the reports.
Go here to see the last report with links to the first 2 Parts:
Part 1 answers all your questions except value. For that you need more information. An average 1894 in working condition is worth $75-100. A Daisy Texas Ranger like new in the box is worth $550. The Blue Book of Airguns 11th edition sold by Pyramyd Air has tons of value information on this gun.