by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Savings
- Greater accuracy
- Back to money
- Odd ammo
- Back to Bob
- A gift
- Does he like it?
- The benefit
- How does this relate to airgunners?
I’m writing today’s report for my brother-in-law, Bob. Bob has owned firearms all his adult life, but a little over a year ago he decided to find out about reloading. Reloading means making your own centerfire ammunition — rifle ammo in Bob’s case.
Savings
People reload for several reasons. Perhaps the most popular one is saving money. That’s the one most shooters think of when they contemplate getting into reloading. And it does save money on a per-shot basis. Instead of spending 72 cents a round for commercial ammo or 41 cents for military ammo, you can put the same cartridge together for 18-35 cents. That’s a huge savings! But is it? Or does it just prompt you to shoot more? Do you end up spending the same amount of money and even more because you manufacture the ammo yourself? I think you do — not that that’s such a bad thing!
But saving money is just one reason to reload. There are many other reasons that are even more attractive. The chance to achieve greater accuracy is one that I am attracted to.
Greater accuracy
I discovered early on that I could put together cartridges that were more accurate than anything I could buy. That sounds like bragging until you consider what commercial ammo is. Commercial ammo is loaded to work in all firearms chambered for that caliber. It has to be small enough to fit into every chamber from any gun manufacturer — chambers in guns made both now and guns made 80 years ago. Yes, there are specifications, but there is also a lot of tolerance within those specs, so all commercial ammo has to fit the lowest common denominator.
When I make a cartridge, I have no such constraints. I can form my cartridge cases to exactly fit the one exact chamber in which they will be fired. In fact, if I own two guns of the same caliber — two .22 Hornets, for instance — I might have to label the ammunition I make for one gun or the other, because they do not interchange.
The upside of that is some of my guns will put 10 rounds into half an inch at 100 yards, where factory ammo might only be good for 2 inches. Four weeks ago I watched a man put 5 cast lead bullets from a 32/40 single shot schuetzen rifle into one-half inch at 200 yards!
Back to money
Speaking of money again, that man was paying about 5 cents per shot for his ammo. The primer cost him about 3 cents and the powder was another penny. The bullet was almost free since he cast it himself and didn’t have to pay for the lead, but I’m throwing in another penny to cover the bullet lube and other supplies. He was loading the cartridge right there on the range! The bullets were ones he had cast at home and prepared for this one gun. The 32/40 cartridge he was shooting is obsolete, and, for comparison, commercial ammo in this caliber costs $2 a round and more, when you can find it.
However, in doing all this the man was shooting a $3000 rifle that had a $1000 scope on top. He was also using another $700 worth of specialized tools to reload his rifle. This was his hobby and he spared no expense to do it his way. The cost savings on the ammo wasn’t really a factor.
Odd ammo
When I started reloading as a teenager in California, I did it to save money — pure and simple. I could not afford the cost of the commercial .38 Special and .45 Colt ammo that I enjoyed shooting in my handguns. Then I got a job at Frontier Village amusement park and within a little more than a year I became the Deputy Marshall and relief outlaw. I owned a Great Western single action in .38 Special and there were no blanks available. So I made my own. For about a year I shot that Great Western (a California-made gun — not the Italian gun by the same name that’s made today) for nearly a year and reloaded all my own blanks.
I have made other odd ammo. Forty years ago when I wanted to shoot my Chinese-made Tokarev pistol, there was no ammo available. So I made it from .223 Remington cases, cut off and reformed in .30 Mauser pistol dies. You can buy 7.62 mm Tokarev ammo today because our nation is now trading with Russia, but as a reloader you can make almost any centerfire round you want. Don’t let that 11.3 mm 1871 Dutch Beaumont Vitali rifle with the perfect bore languish in your closet any longer!
Back to Bob
So, Bob wanted to get into reloading. He began by trying to reload for his Colt-made AR-15. But he eventually faced the fact that it’s never going to be accurate. The best he can hope for is 3-inch groups at 100 yards. I have an AR-15 that will put 10 shots into slightly more than one-half inch at 100 yards. But Bob sees what I have to go through to get my rifle to do that (measuring case length, hand-weighing each charge of powder, single-loading the rifle because the cartridges are too long to fit in the magazine etc.). He wonders what is the point of having an AR if you can’t use it the was it was designed? And a lot of folks agree with him.
When you reload, you can get 10 .223 Remington shots from an AR-15 to go into a 0.534-inch group like this at 100 yards. You’ll never do this with factory ammo or even with military match ammo, but if you experiment you might be able to find a handload that will!
So Bob buys a 30-06 Remington 700. I think that is a good choice from an accuracy standpoint but a poor one from the standpoint of shooter satisfaction. After he gets it he starts reloading for it. He has to learn everything, because the whole subject of reloading is new. What’s the difference between a Berdan and a Boxer primer? How do military cases differ from commercial cases? What can’t he buy any bullet — as long as it is the correct caliber? What makes a box of bullets that sells for $32 better than a bargain box for $11?
We go through all of this over the next year and Bob learns. He learns, for instance, that while a 30-06 will kill any game animal found in North America, it also kicks very hard. He shoots about 40-60 shots each time he goes to the range, but he is not signed up for an elk hunt anytime soon. What I’m saying is — if he doesn’t need all that power, why suffer with all the recoil? He complains he gets bruises on his shoulder each time he goes to the range. I would, too, except that I load my 30-06 cartridges down to reduce the recoil — something else reloaders can do.
Bob is like the airgunners who want to jump into the hobby, so they buy the mostest powerfulest pellet rifle they can afford — for under $300. Then they suffer with the hard cocking effort and the harsh shooting cycle. A year later most of them quit airguns never to return, and they miss the really good parts that all of you know so well.
A gift
Earlier this year Edith and I decided to step in and show Bob a different way. I knew of a Mauser that had been rebarreled and chambered in 7.62×39 mm caliber — the AK-47 caliber. It has far less recoil than a 30-06 and uses less powder, so the cost to reload is less. It is nearly the same caliber as the 30-06 (0.310-diameter bullets instead of 0.308-diameter bullets). Best of all, I shot the rifle and knew it was dead-nuts accurate. And it was for sale. So, we bought it and gave it to Bob. It would be similar to giving a TX200 Mark III to someone who has been struggling with a cheap Chinese uber-magnum breakbarrel.
The 7.62X39 mm round on the left is the same .30 caliber as the 30-06 round on the right. But the recoil and cost to reload is much less. If you’re not hunting grizzly bears, maybe the smaller round is easier all around?
Does he like it?
Bob’s world changed overnight! He saw that the Mauser with the smaller cartridge is far more accurate than his Remington, plus I gave him a load for it that is the best that’s been found for that particular rifle. He bought the dies for the caliber and started reloading. His past experience with both the AR and the Remington 700 makes him able to appreciate the Mauser far more. He even had a gunsmith install a Timney trigger to overcome the Mauser’s heavy military trigger.
The unexpected benefit of this experience is Bob is now reloading his 30-06 to lower levels — looking for accuracy and reduced recoil rather than the last foot-per-second he can get from it. And his groups with that rifle have gone from 20 rounds in 12 inches at 100 yards to 20 rounds in 3 inches at the same distance. That’s improvement, regardless of the size of the group.
The benefit
Bob is now having a lot of fun. He tells me when he is reloading he is calm and almost in a trance. He is proud of the shiny cartridges he is able to make, and last week he told me for the first time that he has more confidence in his reloads than he has in factory ammo. And he has a heck of a lot more confidence in his own stuff than in military surplus ammo! He regrets when he has loaded all his shells because he looks forward to reloading so much! He finds himself looking forward to going to the range, just so he can empty a bunch of shells for reloading. A year ago, he wouldn’t have said any of this.
How does this relate to airgunners?
Here is how I think this relates. Airgunners may not reload cartridges, but those who sort pellets by head size with the Pelletgage are doing something very similar. Same for those who sort pellets by weight. Those who do both are doing what I do when I reload .223 Remington to put 10 into a half-inch. And the guy who fine-tunes his AirForce Talon SS over the chronograph is the fanatic! He gets far more enjoyment from his hobby than the guy who searches for pellets selling for under $7 a tin.
The guy who buys a 30-06 or a 7mm Remington Magnum to shoot at his local club is like the guy who buys the .25 caliber breakbarrel magnum springer. Both will quickly discover that those guns are not pleasant to shoot, and the ammunition costs a lot more than they bargained for.
If you are going moose hunting, by all means get a gun with enough oomph to do the job. But don’t base your purchase decision on the possibility that you might go moose hunting someday. If what you mostly do is shoot at paper targets at 100 yards, get something better-suited to that.
Likewise, if you mostly shoot airguns to clip dandelion stems in the back yard, let that drive your purchase decision. Spend your money on accuracy and comfort, rather than on bragging rights, because a gun that’s fun to shoot today will still be fun to shoot tomorrow. But a bragging rights gun looses some of its appeal with each person who sees it. At some point, you’ll run out of people to impress and then where will you be?
‘Specially the last paragraph. Smart. Very smart.
Funny, I always had the impression that the .30/06 was the accepted upper end of pleasant recoil, for most people. (The overbore .30 magnums, now, those are unpleasant–far more than any .375 Holland or .45/70 I’ve stood behind!) And love it though I do, I admit that if I were going after big bear on purpose (and the bears we get up here, right across from Katmai, can get…big), I’d not choose the ’06 for the task. Sure, it will do the job if required in a pinch, but if I’ve got the choice, I’m going to send somewhere between 400 and 550 grains out for that task. 🙂
Definitely agreed, however, on getting right to the core of “what do you want to do?” to drive your habits. I can attest to the Zen-like state of a good reloading session; it’s like fly-tying in that way.
I have deliberately reloaded both for accuracy and for cost-savings, but as often I do it for efficiency. Ever since the great magnum craze began, it’s gradually become harder to find the heavy-for-caliber bullets that I prefer, especially in loaded ammo. I can still usually find them as components, though. Reloading gives me the chance to create a moderate load (I feel little need to hot-rod) with an efficient use of powder behind a high sectional-density, ballistically streamlined bullet, producing a trajectory that I already know and understand. I like having a “stable” of loads across my rifles that describe the same arc closely enough that in the field I don’t have to think about what I’m shooting. If it’s one of my 300-yard guns (i.e., glass optics) I know that drop pattern; if it’s a 200-yard gun (i.e., ghost-ring irons) I know that pattern as well. Been really happy with that for a lot of years now!
Kevin,
A factory 30/06 will make a factory 45/70 pale by comparison. The 30/06 is sharp and hard. The 45/70 is slow and pleasant.
At least that has been my experience.
B.B.
In a rifle built to take it, the .45-70 can be loaded like a low end .458 Win. Mag. But of course, factory ammo isn’t like that. Such a load would destroy a Trap Door Springfield.
I have found that .311 bullets work a lot better (accuracy) in the 7.62X39.
Mike
B.B.: sure, the “sharp and hard” is exactly what I dislike about the overbore .30 magnums; I just don’t associate that with the ’06. Perhaps it’s a simple case of my own history. As I got into shooting, my father was a hardcore Weatherby guy whose preferred piece was a .300 Wby Mag. Now that thing was and is a beast, especially off a bench rest, which is where he did most of his shooting at the time. (Of course, in the field, you don’t really notice things like that; my first deer was taken with his .300–separate story–and I never felt a thing.) By comparison, even a lightweight .30/06 really is a pussycat.
And as Big Iron notes, the .45/70 is really two cartridges in one–some would say three–and one of the things that got me enthusiastically into that round is how pleasant it is to shoot. As you say, factory, Trapdoor-safe loads are total pussycats: a nice, big, slow push. It’s not just pleasant, but fun. But when I talk .45/70, I’m talking about the “class 2” loads for the Marlin 1895; I load 400-grain hard-cast bullets to about the same trajectory as the Trapdoor 300s, making the latter available as practice/backup rounds, and the 500-550-grain pills to around the same trajectory as the Trapdoor 405 loads, for the same reason. And even the gorilla loads–especially considering what sort of downrange performance they are capable of–are amazingly pleasant to shoot in that Marlin. Still a big push; still far more comfortable than big-bottle .30s. (Yeah, I’m a .45/70 fanboy.) 🙂
Not only the head and weight sorting, but all “tuning” things we do as well. In a way, I feel that in airgunning we are lucky in that we up the power level very significantly and still keep could accuracy and still keep comfort with PCP’s.
I would love to have a Texan,…but I am not sure it’s worth the cost of one and all the costly support equipment that has to go with it. After all, I do not plan on hunting deer, coyote or wild pigs with one anytime soon.
2 nice springers that launch .22 pellets on the 650 fps. range suit me just fine. They are all day shooters and they can definitely out shoot me, as is evidenced by some of the awesome groups or sub-groups. Even 3 pellets in a row through the same hole, 3 times in the same sitting. I can assure you, that’s more the rarity than the norm.
I swear that sometimes they take on a life of their own and show me what they can do for a few shots. Then,..they stand back and say, “See,…that’s what I can do”.
Good day all, Chris
Chris,
You have apparently found what you are looking for in the world of airguns. For the most part, so have I. I have my Izzy pistol for my pistol plinking. I have my 1906 BSA for killing feral soda cans and shooting target at 10 yards. I have my 12 FPE Edge for mini-sniping out to 50 yards.
Now I would like to pick up two more air rifles to finish my “collection” off. I would like a nice sproinger for small game hunting and target out to 50 yards. Your two air rifles are on the short list. 😉
I would also like a real nice looking PCP for “long range” shooting, 100 yards or so. That is a lot more difficult to decide on, or should I say that is a lot more expensive. There are some nice air rifles out there that will shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, but you are going to pay for it.
RidgeRunner,
Champagne taste on a beer budget,….. 🙂 That’s me all over. “found what I am looking for”…? Probably not,….but they will do for now. They still out-shoot me. I guess,..I want to get bored with my skills before moving on. I know what they will do, I just need to get them to do it most of the time.
As for the 2,…GF1 can help you on TX in .177, I can help on the TX in .22, GF1 can help with the LGU in .22 as can I,…same gun. PCP’s GF1 for sure. The LGU muzzle cap comes right off. I filled it with weights to the tune of 4 1/8 oz.. I like that. Even though the 2 weigh the same, the TX is a dream to hold and balance,…the LGU feels like a log in comparison, but is nice to shoot and lays well on a rest. I had some conversation with Hector of the USA team and he was of the opinion that the LGU would out shoot 90% of the TX’s,…but not sure if that was a .177 or .22 opinion. Trigger on TX is sweet and the LGU not so. Diff. triggers or tunes on the LGU trigger can be had. The LGU seems tighter built as there an actual “suction” sound when returning the cocking lever,….for real.
At any rate,….that’s some more info. to ponder on the 2 since you have mentioned a couple of times that they are on your short list. Chris
Chris USA
That was something that caught my attention right away on the LGU.
The suction sound when the breech closes. It’s like its a precise fit and seal as it moves.
The Tx has some very good craftsmanship for sure. The curve that is a smooth flow from the breech area to the barrel is a work of art. The transfer of the main tube to the barrel area is amazing. No hint of machine work.
Then don’t you remember me mentioning the offsets on the Tx stock. They definitely have the ergonomics figured out at AirArms.
The LGU stock for sure needs some work on the stock. But overall the LGU has some nice craftsmanship too.
What I would like to ask you now that you have exsperianced the two different guns for a while. What do you think about how they have different charectrics. Or as I say personalities.
And also I would like to ask if you would try the LGU without the weights now after you got some more exsperiance with the way it shot before and after.
Did the weight in the muzzle of the LGU make a difference in how the gun grouped?
GF1,
Yes, the muzzle weights did improve accuracy. That shoud be a design factor in other air rifles.
As you know, I use the “limb savers” to increase pull. The TX pad stays put and the LGU shifts left. I shoot left, so that says something about the offset that you mentioned. I forgot that, but will need to revisit that. I wish that it had an off-settable butt stock/pad like the high ender’s do.
The stock is ok on the LGU, but I like the matt oil finish on the TX better. I may strip the LGU someday!
Gut feel?…..I think the LGU will win out in the end,…but darn it,…..that TX feels so much better and is a whole lot nicer to look at! For now,…they are neck and neck.
Chris USA
Ok you just made a comment that I don’t hear often.
Why the heck do you think the LGU will win out.
This is important. You feel something is there. What?
GF1,
😉 ,….I do not know. I know that answer will not sit well with you. Remember, I am new and do not have the years that you have. Sooo,…I do not know. You will be the first to know when one wins out over the other on a consistant basis. It’s “gut” at this point. Hector said that as well and he probably knows what he’s talking about,….more than me at least.
As I found (at least I think anyways),…the TX HO tuned seems to like the 18.13’s better and the LGU 15.89’s. I will hit that combo heavy in the spring but will not give it any credability at 41′ this winter indoors. They all shoot pretty good close up huh? Who told me that????? 😉 Chris (outa here,…zzzz)
Chris USA
But you know for some reason you feel that.
You don’t have to say why or even know why right now.
But if something made you feel that then there is a reason.
I just want to know why you have that feeling.
You know we’re going to refer to this conversation at a later point in time.
And another thing will be learned.
For you personally, and the lgu and tx you have, the lgu might fit you better, and the combination of pellet you’ve found for YOUR rifle makes the lgu a better shooter, for you. Maybe by consensus the tx is ranked superior, maybe only because more people own the tx cause the lgu is fairly new still in gun terms. The point is that this is the worst conversation to get into the habit of, BB has always advocated that the best gun for you and what you do is the best gun in the world, now find the best ammo for that one of a kind gun.. boom, all the conversation in the world doesnt change the fact that a cheap, old, new, expensive, beat up, prestine, heirloom, flea market, dirty or clean or green or purple or walnut beech or synthetic…. the right pellet for you will come in as many variabilities. Feeling. When shooting, that has more weight then review stars.
RDNA
You probably don’t know it but I use to own the LGU that Chris USA owns now. And I have a .177 caliber Tx. I had the LGU and Tx at the same time.
I know what I like about both of the guns. They both are very accurate spring guns.
Both guns have different quality’s that I like and some that I didn’t like. And there wasn’t many of the not likes about the guns.
That’s why I wanted to know from Chris USA why he thought the LGU may win out. I got a few ideas why but want to know what he thinks.
Gunfun1,
First, Happy Thanksgiving. Second,…I (would) like to know (your) thoughts and what you experienced with it. More to the point, what you think of,.. of why I think the LGU may win out.
Right now, I would not bet on either to “win”.
RDNA22,
All good points. I tried to keep it factual. Pass it back around as it was passed to me.
The fact it used to be GF LGU makes this a different conversation all together, I was under the impression you both had tx and lgus irrelevant to each other, that would make it a ones better then the other with what looked like each leaning in the other direction, which obviously isnt a problem with the high maturity level we aspire to here, but on other forums there would eventually be the terrible statement of one gun being better no matter what and what I’d term “gun shaming”. Believe me when I say even if your conversation didnt have the inside joke I am not saying yours would have progressed negatively, I think much higher of the company here, but did want to present the reminder of personal preference trumping general consensus, though out of place, is still a good reminder.
RDNA22,
On the below comment,…I feel lucky that I have a gun that is a “verified” shooter,…tested by someone better than me. I have no problem whatsoever saying that. Since GF1 did have the LGU, he can say what it will and will not do. But, he does not have a .22 TX. So who can say. I can’t. The skill levels are different and that sets up a whole different playing field. I just try to be honest about what I can do, with what, and why.
Chris USA
I guess what I’m thinking about is what the difference of each guns characteristics is.
Maybe one fits better and is easier to shoot.
But mostly do you think one seems like it will be more accurate than the other.
Side by side in the same caliber should be easy to spot if one seems to be possibly more accurate than the other.
I hate when people compare two guns and their different calibers. And really hate when they say what a gun performs like when they haven’t even owned one or both guns.
So with you having both guns and both the same caliber I’m totally waiting for some info about each and why (you) think one may win out over the other.
You see you have both in the same caliber and as you say. You think they both shoot better than you.
That’s a good thing too. And some how you know that. But you got to say so other people have true facts about both guns so they can make a good choice about what one would work best for them.
GF1,
Mmmmm?,….well,….on a good “steady” day, they both do better. If I shoot the TX first and the LGU second (4x10ea.), or visa/versa, then the later one may be worse. On the other hand, my groups get better the more I shoot in a session, usually. Being calm and in the mental “zone” also helps. That may, or may not, be present on a given day. That, along with getting into a “rhythm” also helps. It starts to become “automatic” and that in turn, allows for more “unconscious” repeatability.
I try hard on all fronts. Still new and still learning.
Bottom line, the “good days” and the groups and sub-groups tell me they can both do well. It is still me to a large part.
This winter, I will be able to focus on shot cycles and triggers. I will not give the 41″ any cred., but will get to know ’em better.
That is the best way I can describe it for now. Chris
I will be looking at .22 in whichever I go with. Although I like the looks and everything else I have heard about the LGU, the TX200 MKIII dressed in a walnut stock with a Hawke perched on top would be mighty hard to top.
RR,
Well, best of luck when you get there. I gave you the quick “down and dirty” above. I know for a fact that I still have yet to see the best from either. And that, I can assure you,….is all me.
Always here if you want to ask anymore about either. Chris
RR,
After some thought,…it seems that you have your heart set on the TX. I can not argue. That was, and would be my first pick. For looks, feel, function,…the TX wins hands down.
Regret of not going for your dream is the worst. Right now, I can not say which one will do best. They both do good and GF1 did get 9/16″ at 50 with the LGU. Yea, they are both pricey, but, I think either will do good for you. They both outdo each other on an on/off basis. That is me.
It all comes down to you.
Chris,
I am certain that the performance of either will suit me just fine. It is the fact that the TX in walnut is such eye candy that will likely carry the day for it. Not only can it shoot, it looks good while it is doing it. Yes, that adds a hefty chunk to the price, but if you only intend to have one real nice sproinger, why not have it as nice as you can.
There is another sproinger that is on my short list.
/product/diana-340-n-tec-luxus-pro-compact-air-rifle?m=3516
From what I understand, the trigger is not quite as nice as the TX, but once you get the feel of it the performance is outstanding and it looks good while doing it.
RR,
Interesting. Ambi walnut, gas piston. Very poor choice of pics on the PA site. For that price they ought to have 6-8 good closeups as is the norm. I wanted a closer look. I do not care for the lines of the butt/cheek area, but that is just me. The blasted barrel is an interesting twist. I think I like the idea, but could not see it in the picks. The same could be said for the checkering. I could not even tell there was any.
Again, good luck. You are for sure doing your “homework”.
Chris,
Here is BB’s review of the “cheap” version.
/blog/2015/05/diana-340-n-tec-classic-air-rifle-part-4/
Oh, and my Daisy 99 for popping balloons, chasing feral soda cans around the yard and hunting carpenter bees.
Chris USA
I’m betting there are some people that won’t understand why 650 fps is ok.
Believe me. I get it.
I doubt the Impact or 2400 top 650 when I put the Monsters down range with them but if I wanted velocity I’d be using something lighter. To be realistic I figure most shots I would get out hunting would be under 40yds(that’s where stalking comes into play)with either gun and in that range I’d still be putting over 15 for on target, much more than necessary for most small game… Yeah, I get it too!
Reb
And how do you know that you will make a shot count if you don’t know what the trajectory of that pellet is.
You have to at the least shoot at different distances and document your aim points to know you will hit your target.
Especially if your shooting at something that is alive. You want that shot to be on target so that alive thing don’t suffer.
Do you know how much your pellet will be off from where you aim if you don’t know how the pellet fly’s.
You have to know the trajectory of the pellet. Or in other words know where it will hit a different distances.
You will be surprised how easy it is to miss the up close shots if you don’t document where the pellet hits compared to where you aim at different distances.
That’s in my plan and why I enjoyed having 60yds to play with at the old place.
Believe it, I can’t wait to get to a place with more range!
I don’t plan to do any hunting until I do.
The baracuda hunter extremes 19 gr through my impact gave 670fps, jsb 15’89 were 702, the fastest were cphp at 750, ruger superpoints were 675
How loud is it with the silencer gone?
Careful with those Crosman pellets in your Impact. One tin of them was all it took to changer a leade and make loading much easier in mine.
I know they are hard pellets but I’m guessing the barrel may also be pretty soft so no more through mine.
Chamfer! The text is so small I don’t stand a chance against the relentless assault of Auto- correct.
Lol, no problem, I understood. You get used to reading spell check errors more then used to letting them go when you make them. Without the silencer on the impact it sounds the same as my 177 np or any other “1000 foot” springer without one. I used the jsb 15s almost exclusively until I ran out then I went through a tin of the superpoint rugers, they were doing very well actually, but havent gotten more of either and while I do have a tin of cphps I havent had much chance to shoot the new marodder, never mind the impact. I want to try some jsb 18s because the heavier baracudahunterextremes did very well but I only had about 15-20 left of those as well! I have tons of 77 pellets now, but the 22 well is dry. Its tough getting home 6-7 oclock and having a bunch of stuff still need to do when I get home. And I’ve been sick! Dust from work and a dry as anything house has had me hocking and tired.
Aside from the occasional group of Monsters I have almost exclusively used the Superpoints in mine, the accuracy is there and the price is right and if I run out I don’t have to order more and wait for them to show up.
They’re not super soft but much softer than just about anything else I can get locally.
I’ve been looking forward to trying some of the lighter JSB’s so I’ll be getting some in the future but saving for a HIpac right now.
“What are you going to do with this air rifle?”
Gary Barnes asked me that question in 2005 at the Roanoke show. I had just discovered the world of modern airguns earlier that year and after searching the web for a couple of months I had decided I wanted a .58 Bison. Apparently he did not like my answer. He did not build me that Bison and now I am glad he did not do such at the time.
I thought about that question for a very long time. I also did a lot more research. Now I would like for him to build me an air rifle. The Bison would do what I want, but there are others that would do better.
Tom, I ordered a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39 last week (backordered a year). I had figured shooting the M91-30 would have the same effect as your brother in law noted, and my brother has promised to help me reload with his equipment. Interesting reading, sir!
Jerry,
A Mosin Nagant 91-30 will pound you through the pavement! It isn’t the cartridge, which is similar to the 30/06, as much as the stock with its extremely short pull and large drop. I’ve heard lots of reasons for the short pull, such as heavy wool coats, having to make for a wide variety of body sizes, etc. All I know is it kicks!
B.B.
I have heard that…for some reason could not resist the urge to get one, and after taking the 91-30 apart and cleaning it, it had even more historic appeal. Then I got an M38, and a case of Bulgarian surplus ammo. I do have a rubber butt pad, but is seems pretty darn hard. Never shot either one – but I will do so next year in NC (will have my own range!). Ready for zombies. Will definitely reload some Yugoslavian brass rounds for it, but I think the new CZ will likely be the one that gets shot. 🙂
Jerry,
The M38 and M44 are two of the most notorious kickers in the world. I have never shot one, but I think the additional muzzle blast makes the shooter think the recoil is bad. And of course they are lighter.
B.B.
Great post here be my comments. I love reloading. My issues are I can never seem to get the “best” powder. I have many cans and never enough. Components took a big jump lately. My buddies don’t seem to appreciate cast bullets like I do. Lastly and most important wife doest like time away from her….
Still love it. My military rifles are much more fun to shoot with cast rounds especially the 91/30. 3 or 4 rounds in the summer with full house russian surplus and I’m done. My favorite to load is the .303
Rob,
My favorite powder for rifles if H4198. I use it in most calibers for reduced loads. In a 30/06 I would try 25 grains behind a 150-grain lead bullet.
B.B.
Thanks! I have some 4198! And a 180 gr mould. I also have the m44 and a 91/51 and I can verify they do kick hard. Makes for a purple shoulder.
Thank you bb for another great blog entry.
Earlier this year I stepped into reloading for my pistol shooting. I bought a Lee reloader kit on sale and the parts to be able to make 250 bullets, at sale prices where possible. My investment to this point was about $150 and the cost to buy a box of 50 bullets is less than $20. In my case there is not a cost savings to reloading and one of my pistols of that caliber does not like the rounds I make. I will keep reloading because I enjoy the process and learning about the intricacies of making what seems on the surface to be very simple. It is a hobby.
Giopher,
By comparison, I reload 9mm Luger rounds for 8 cents a round, and that includes buying the bullets. I bought 500 9 mm cast lead bullets at a gun show for $20, so that’s 0.04 a bullet. Primers are 0.03 and powder is a penny.
These are full power loads that operate the toggle on my Luger. Fifty rounds (not bullets — bullets are just the projectiles) cost $4. They are also accurate. The savings are there if you look for them.
B.B.
B.B.,
Know I’m slightly late to the party on this one (1911 blog was yesterday), but I just finished reading the late Chris Kyle’s “American Gun” and was intrigued enough to want to foray a bit deeper into some replica airguns. The 1911 is one I’m considering, and there are a lot of them available! I’d love to hear your recommendations (and those of blog readers like Cstoehr) when you wrap this up. For authentic realism, the Tanfoglio Witness looks good and can actually be field-stripped. Thanks for your thoughts, if you’ve seen enough of the others to make a recommendation.
HS,
Yes there are lots of 1911 airguns available. The choice is almost embarrassing!
B.B.
Greetings HiveSeeker,
It’s good to hear from you. I don’t have a Tangfoglio Witness, but I’ve read a lot of good comments from those who have them. These are the 1911 replicas I have and links to the Pyramyd AIR reviews I submitted.
Blackwater BW1911 R2 BB Pistol
/product-all-reviews/m/blackwater-bw1911-r2-co2-pistol/3227
Colt Commander BB Pistol
/product-all-reviews/m/colt-commander-co2-pistol/3397
Colt Government 1911A1 Pellet Pistol
/product-all-reviews/m/colt-1911-a1-co2-pellet-gun/136
The two 1911 BB pistols are semi-auto with both CO2 and BBs loaded into the full size drop-out magazine.
The Colt 1911A1 pellet pistol is not semi-auto because it uses the Umarex 8 shot rotary disk that is inserted into the top of the pistol. All three have working thumb and grip safeties, and the two BB pistols have working slide locks when the magazine is empty. I highly recommend all three.
Hiveseeker,
I forgot to mention in my previous reply that my reviews are posted under the name Charles M.
Charles,
I would like to commend you and thank you for your detailed reviews. I have read all of them and find them quite informative, especially given your consistently trying just about every single brand BB with each BB gun.
Well done!
Michael
Michael,
I’m just following B.B.’s example and writing the kind of reviews I think are useful to everyone. After all, what good is a review if it really doesn’t provide any useful substantive information?
Charles M / Cstoehr,
Your review of the Winchester MP4 tipped the balance in my decision to buy that gun, and resulted in my first guest blog (www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/08/winchester-mp4-co2-rifle-part-4/). I believe I may have made your acquaintance back then, but let me say again: Thank you!!
I’ll definitely look over your 1911 reviews, and you might consider doing a comparative guest blog on the guns. I doubt that few others own that many different models.
Again, know that your reviews have had a positive impact on at least one fellow shooter out there!
HiveSeeker,
Your are very welcome. I’m glad my review helped. Have a Happy Thanksgiving today!
BB,
I enjoyed today’s blog better than any I have read lately. For some reason, when you veer from airguns a little to other subjects that you are passionate about it really comes out in your writing. Maybe it’s that you are introducing me to things I am less familiar with. Speaking of the 30/06, my dad has a M1 Garand that really tames the 30/06. It seems to go boom and just push back instead of slamming back. I don’t know if I will ever get back to powder burners or not, but reloading sounds like a fun hobby.
David Enoch
David,
Thank you for your comment. Sometimes I stand back and look at what’s been published and I realize I have overlooked a certain kind of topic. Edith used to help me do that.
I know these general topics aren’t as focused on airguns as some others, but actually today’s report has some important lessons for the new airgunner. I just had to use a new firearm shooter to illustrate them.
B.B.
B.B.
I think you aren’t the only one emphasizing the importance for knowing how you want to use an airgun before buying. I think I read that advice somewhere else when I started three years ago, and it really helped me focus my airgun buying decisions. My focus was and still is airguns I can safely shoot in my basement. Within that range, I focused on firearm replicas that I could use to acquaint myself with gun safety and accurate shooting so that if a day comes when I do buy a firearm I hope that what I have learned with these airgun replicas will help me make a better firearm purchase decision.
Its amazing that sometimes it really is hard to open your eyes to what you need for what you ACTUALLY do against being blinded by what you WANT to do, dont normally or often do, or never have actually done so there’s every angle set for disappointment. I wanted what doesnt really exist for a long time, a cheap, extra powerful-easy shooting and accurate springer. There are a thousand air rifles that check any combination of 2 or 3, but all 4 qualities do not materialize in many, or any, springers. Then, still, my dream of a pcp that could perform how I WANTED was inflated over what I do most often, and what makes me happy. I thought I needed more, more speed, pellet weight/size, more dead then dead squirrels and pest birds. I saw Tube videos showing how a .25 could hit a squirrel with the tip of skirt and it was down all the same, or the big bobcat at 50yards. I have now a 177 mrod and things are different. I dont WANT to hit them with the tip of the skirt. I want, and need, to hit them in the right spot. Thats it. And while I WANT to hide up and take a big bobcat, coyote, etc.. Those animals dont live in close enough proximity for it to be a priority. I have 40ish yards out across the yard and 15 yard indoor. There are a million sparrows, a good number of crows squirrels and starlings and a few blocks in a number of directions are rabbits. I dont NEED a 25, I could fair with a 22, but 16 gr eunjins are shooting up to snuff with the rodders favorite jsb10.3s at the same 850/75, putting a~20 ftlbs at my usual target distances of around 30 yards. If I go out for rabbits they are still inside or at 30 yards. Even the few and far between scenerio where I could use more, I dont need it, the power it has is still enough, especially since its going in the right spot. If I get lucky down the road and happen to move to a place I live directly in a wooded area, with larger/medium size game, or 50-100yard usuals, then I will get a 25 rodder or escape. In the mean time I will enjoy saving money on pellets, flatter trajectories, 22 power and an amazingly accurate, high quality marauder that I never thought was all I’d need, now, all I would’ve wanted, had I given up the fight much earlier. It is thanksgiving after all! 🙂
RDNA
Amen.
Well after you let me know how them Eun Jins really do.
I’m kind of doubting how it will go with them. But maybe they will work for you for type of shooting you do.
Do them sqerrials and rabbits always come to the same spot or are they at different distances when your out getting them?
Just make sure you map out those holds at different distances with them Eun Jins. And then I hope you test them at those distances first to see if they will group good enough so that you don’t clip them with a skirt of the pellet.
That sure can’t be counted as a one shot kill could it?
I do plan on getting an actual trajectory graph made, I’ve never actually drawn one out but this is a perfect time to do the first cause it will come in handy when I go out. I usually hear good things about eunjin pellets, especially further out, but it does seem to be the two larger smallbore calibers they’re using them in. Like when Paul Capello is testing a hunting pcp at further distances its almost always to include them, but again, thats almost always 22 or 25. YouTube has one video of a 1377 shooting them (pretty fast too, over 500fps) but that’s it. In the rodder they fit just snug where a little push pops them in which feels good, and I did get a really nice group on the indoor range. Haven’t had much time getting home late but tomorrows turkey day so I’ll be home and hopefully I can get out to a 40 or 50 yards stretch and see what happens. Having a nontypical shape I can see where things might get wonky but so far I just honestly have a good feeling that they are a good match for this gun.
RDNA
All I can say is plot it out in true life.
It’s easy. And this is simplifying it. You should do what I’m talking about at every 10 yards from 10-50 yards at least.
Take a 11×7 piece of paper and put a dot in the middle of the target or I mean paper. Then put it out a every 10 yards.
Always aim at the dot at the middle of the paper. And shoot at least 5 shots at each paper.
You will have a 5 shot group on each 10 yard paper at the different distances.
Once you do that mark each paper at the distance it was at. (10-50 yards). Then put them on a table side by side in order.
If you circle your 5 shot groups and then draw a line to each target it will show the flight path of the pellet. (the trajectory of the pellet)
That’s all you have to do to get your different aim points at the 10 yard increments.
You will be surprised how much above and below the pellet will hit on the target paper that you aimed at with the dor on it.
Oh by the way.
That’s what Chairgun does. But your seeing it in true life for the setup you have.
You know velocity, scope height. Pellet weight and shape. The coefficient of drag the pellet has. The area you want your pellet to hit in or I should say kill zone. And sight in distance and magnification that you shoot at.
What it amounts to is where the pellet hits compared to what you see or should I say what you aim point is when you look through the scope.
But remember the program can’t compensate for how the pellet fits in the barrel. That’s something Chairgun can’t do.
I should say this too.
The pellet fit in the barrel relates to how well the pellet groups.
Yeah, that is a perfect mapping plan. Chairgun can do about 80% of the thinking, but none of the facts that come out of your personal equipment, totally true. The mapping you described puts the math right there on the paper. Chairgun doesnt have eunjins in the database either, but I noticed something, going through pellets graphs that the furthest dropping ones were the lighter ones and the wadcutters, and, changing the weight and looking at the graph again made almost no visible change. That to me, if its correct, would mean that drop is controlled by velocity and BC, leaving them the same then the weight doesnt affect drop and velocity so much as BC, sound right? Just curious if this thing is not reading the change in weight to the graphs…
RDNA
The trick to using Chairgun is to change around your settings.
By that I mean scope hieght, zeroing in distance, fps and magnification you want to shoot at and the distance above and below the horizontal retical centerline which is the area you want the pellet to stay in when you look through the scope verses where the pellet hits.
Every pellet will maintain a given flight path then towards the end the pellet will drop rapidly.
What happens when the pellet drops at the end of its trajectory means that the pellet is out of its effective range.
That’s why you need to know at what distances you want to shoot at.
Changing scope hieght or magnification or pellet weight and coefficient and velocity will change the way the scope see’s the pellets trajectory.
Remember there is two things working together. The actual physical pellet flight and how you see it with the optics.
What has to happen is how the two work together to give the best possible sight picture in relation to how the pellet hits.
I think what im trying to say is that weight doesnt affect drop, not directly, only velocity affects drop, so with velocity maintained by BC, weight can go up and down but not affect velocity, only slightly affecting BC by way of how energy plays on the BC, but a pellet with a certain BC going a specific velocity will lose velocity the same and drop the same regardless of weight. If anything heavier weight maintains momentum keeping velocity up… see this is where things get mixed up, two opposing principles playing simultaneously… :/
RDNA
Not true. Your forgetting something important. What about gravity. The heavier pellet will feel the effect of gravity sooner than a lighter pellet.
The heavier pellet will drop quicker than a lighter pellet that left the barrel at the same velocity at a certain distance.
Then change calibers and see what happens. The big diameter pellet will have more mass or area than the smaller pellet. It has more trouble penetrating the air
G’day BB
I finally got my wife shooting clay targets in the last couple of years. Recoil is serious stuff and makes nice bruises. Recoil is also additive, causes bad habits and causes fatigue after 150-200 shots per day.
So I got her a stock which is quite heavy to fit her slender frame and use 1150fps shells.
No bruises and good scores.
Cheers Bob
Bob,
Hello. Good to hear from you. It’s been a while, hasn’t it?
I hope your wife has a smaller gauge gun. A 20 will do everything a 12 will. And I hear the 28 may be the same, though I’ve never tried one.
B.B.
Bob’s downfall was going to the range and shooting with someone that owns accurate guns and knows how to reload for them.
Kevin
Kevin,
And now that he is hooked I will never let him go! 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
Yep, reel another one in and put him in the boat. You’re a master at this.
Kevin
I love shooting my M1 Garand but I, too find that 50 to 60 rounds is enough for a session of factory ammo. But I also marvel at the fact that “kids” in Europe shot hundreds of rounds each day. I guess with the adrenaline flowing and Germans shooting back at you, you don’t even feel the recoil. Hats off to the Greatest Generation.
I have started reloading the 30-06 for accuracy and reduced load and the biggest discovery I made is the seating depth of the bullet affects accuracy significantly. A hundredth of an inch further into the case, not the rifling makes a major impact on accuracy. Anyway, Happy T Day to all.
Fred DPRoNJ
BB.
Great blog today – and I am one that shoots only airguns. I tie into it as one that has progressed down the quest for accuracy and now sort pellets by weight and head size.
I agree that most it would be wonderful to be able to help people avoid the pitfalls along the path – I was one of them, frustrated by “high power” Chinese springers. But I think the problem is one of helping people to figure out what they really want to do with their guns, and not what they think they want to do with them – or more accurately, help them figure out what they will want to do with their guns once they have learned about what the guns can really do.
As that great saying goes, good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from poor judgement. Sadly, I think most people have to learn the lessons for themselves, and while some will quit, others will keep at it. This blog can help, but the decisions still have to be made by the individual. My story is very much along that line.
I had plinking Crosman .177 airguns, but needed to be able to take out groundhogs. Not knowing about this blog, I bought a .22 Crosman Quest to do the job – which it did, although poorly. After much experimentation to improve the accuracy of that gun, I realized that I really like the quest for accuracy itself. I decided to get a .22 caliber Marauder, and while it clearly fit the original purpose much better – it has been through several barrels, and now sits with a 0.63” LW Poly and is regulated too, and is exceptionally accurate.
The point is that had somebody been able to help me with that first decision on eliminating groundhogs and provided me with the best answer that would have met (although at a stretch) my budgetary desires – an RWS 34 – I may never have had the opportunity to find on my own the real answer to what I wanted to do with an airgun: pursue ever increasing levels of accuracy.
Had I bought that RWS 34 instead of the Quest, and had it been a good shooter out the box, I doubt very much that I would have really found out what I wanted to do with airguns . . . .
I now like testing different settings in my Marauder against different pellet attribute as much as anything in a quest for ever improving accuracy, and sometimes I find things that seem counterintuitive. This summer I found some of the best accuracy I have seen with large head sizes in Baracudas – pellets that I was pretty much just going to toss, as logic says that 5.55 head size should not shoot well in a tight LW barrel. I’ll show you that result in a picture that I’ll link to here, but first I want to thank you for helping me find the true answer to what I wanted to do with airguns. I still need to take out groundhogs a few times a year, but I do with the tools of a hobby that I found through this blog and much experimentation, and trial and error. So in this week of Thanksgiving I want to thank you and this blog community are a key part of what you will see in the picture below – all 25 shots in the picture were shot in sequential 5 shot groups:
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc389/hkydad/50%20yard%205%20shot%20groups%20%20-%20Baracuda%205.55%20no%20weight%20sort_zpstiqilplj.jpg
AlanMcD,
I don’t remember talking to you before, so welcome to the blog. If you have commented in the past, just chalk it up to my old bald head being too full of junk to remember like it should.
Those groups are fantastic! That’s 20 shots? Crosman would love to see that sort of performance at 50 yards, I’ll bet.
Good on yah, mate!
B.B.
BB,
Thanks for the compliments on the groups – that is 25 shots, as there are 5 five shot groups . . .
I have been a steady reader over the past few years but have not commented much – just a time thing.
I used to comment more in the past, and went by Alan in MI for a while, back when there was another Alan who went by Alan in Fl.
One of the main points in the post was to thank you for your help in getting me on the quest for accuracy. It was a goal that I really did not have when I started, but found that goal while on the journey. So thanks again to you – those groups are in no small part a result of what you do here.
Alan
AlanMcD,
Wow, that has to be the most complete data that I ever seen. I encourage everyone to look at these pics.There is like 30 pics. I hit the link and started to view.
Too many questions to even start,..but I will ask one…..Do you find the sorting benifical? Chris
Chris,
I find sorting to be beneficial, mostly in terms of weeding out the flyers. Sometimes – like in the case of the picture I linked to, you can find a combo that really delivers the best in accuracy. I also find sorting to be incredibly tedious, so I end up doing most of it in the winter. I now have it down to sorting large batches of pellets from a bulk order into tins by head size with the pellet gage, and then weight sort as needed in smaller batches from those when I want the best accuracy for benchrest. Sorting is not much fun, but getting those great results on paper is pretty rewarding.
I am glad you liked the pictures – most of them are not labeled, but I know what they are. And almost all of the group photos up there are 50 yards, outdoors. There are some that are at 20 yards indoors.
That Photobucket account is used for airgun related pictures, most of which are shared in the Marauder airgun forum with all the details around them for their particular purpose. Others, like the pump explanation, were made to answer specific questions that people had either there or on the Yellow forum (BB – you probably will recall the ones explaining the working of most handpumps, as I believe I linked to those here through a yellow forum link once).
I think most people would think I go overboard on statistical analysis, but I find it enjoyable. There is a series of pictures in there that relate to the results of 100 separate shots at individual bulls that is potentially worth reading the thread on – here is that link, if you want it (at least it will tie some of the pictures together): http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9757
And here is the link with the full story on the original linked picture above: http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11718
Thanks again!
Alan
AlanMcD,
Thanks for the reply. You have the tools, knowledge and know how to use them very well. Way above my head and skills. Thanks for your answer on the sorting question. One does have to have the skills for it to show, I think you would agree. And yes, it is tedious. Winter is on and I will bide my time over the winter by sorting some and see if it makes a difference in the spring.
New to aiguns and just over 11 months of practice. I did get a TX and LGU, both in .22,….so there is no big box whammy blaster excuses for me.
On the side,…Jim M. chimes in from time to time and just started sorting and is getting ready to test for accuracy. He seem’s real serious and has some quality shooters. I encourage you to watch for him and offer any advice. You 2 seem to be cut from the same mold,…but he is new to this and you seem to have “been around the block” a time or two. Thanks, Chris
Nice shootin! I just said above that the eunjins have to give a little push to pop in and so far at 15 yards they go in a one hole clover just like the jsb 10s it has for a baseline favorite. Going to hopefully get out tomorrow in the afternoon to see if my 50 yards looks anything like yours! Thanks for showing off, a good group is always a welcome sight.
RDNA
Make sure you post your results with those Eun Jins.
If somebody can show me the truth about them out at those distances in your.177 Mrod it will be you.
I do want to know your results. Especially at 50 yards.
Oh yeah, hopefully I can get out, tomorrow isnt supposed to be too crazy but you never know, if I dont get to 40/50 I can at the least group for record in my yard 35? ( I’ll have to measure that too, its somewhere between 35 and hopefully 40, that’ll be mice, but thinking 35) then ill have a close, middle, and when I get out for far I can post em every ten for a map. I should be good to go out, if the wife’ll let me sneak away from mashing those potatoes and bastin that bird lol
RDNA
Tell your wife its just something that has to be done or you just won’t be able to stop thinking about it and enjoy the holiday. 🙂
And then on the serious side. The 35 yard mark will tell something.
And just out of curiosity have you noted how high the scope is above the barrel compared to how much your group is hitting at 15 yards. I’ll bet the point of impact of the pellet is pretty close to that distance verses point of aim.
B.B,
Your brother-in-law’s being able to reload in order to shoot a less powerful, less expensive round reminds me of a piece you wrote a year or so ago in which you mentioned the versatility you had as a reloader with your 1903A3 Springfield. You could shoot many different reloads depending on your purpose. The right tool for the job, so to speak, and all of the tools are right there in that one Springfield and all of the different rounds you made for it.
That’s a compelling reason for reloading for folks who simply want one gun. For over 50 years my uncle (not a reloader) hunted game in every hunting season they have up in Wisconsin, but he had just three guns: a deer rifle, a 12 gauge, and a .410. The same three guns for over 50 years, and that was it. I envy folks like that.
Michael
Michael,
There is a saying among shooters, “Beware of the man with just one gun. He probably knows how to use it.”
Your uncle saw guns as tools. He was interested in what they could do — not in what they were.
B.B.
Michael,
I am going to have to look that blog up. Doggone it, BB’s going to have me reloading. I can’t afford another hobby.
David Enoch
BB
Excellent article today.
Now only if new air gunners could all read this before they buy their dream gun.
GF1,
…their dream gun? As in ONE gun? …you jest, right?
(spoken as the owner of several “dream guns” and dreaming about a couple more) 🙂
Hank
Vana2
I went through that when I got back into airguns.
And I also made it a point to try a bunch of different types of airguns.
And even went and got some again that I tryed in the beginning just to see maybe if it was the gun or me. Some still didn’t produce good results but some that I thought wasn’t good was actually me.
Then throw the pellet fit into the equation, and scope height and fill pressure on pcp guns. Then the shot cycle of the springers. Then see what happens when you start shooting at longer distances. Oh and velocity and coefficient of the pellet too.
That would be a good book to write about. Then maybe it would help a new air gunner get on the right track a little easier.
Oh and by the way I’m still looking for my dream airgun. 😉
GF1,
I think most of my dreams have been answered, got most bases covered – the 300SU really iced the 10 meter cake!
I would definitely like a FX Royal 300 in .22 to cover large varmint and small game hunting that I currently do with the Browning T-Bolt. My wife says that I AM dreaming about that one LOL!
If I get heavily into FT I might be thinking about one of those fancy Feinwerkbau or maybe a Seyer rifle. Who knows, for now the AR20 is shooting fine and I have a lot of catching up to do in that department.
There is always something eh? Probably why we never stop looking.
Vana2
Vana2
The problem is my dream airgun has to be able to be used for multiple things. Hunting, pesting and target shooting near and far. Plus the occasional plinking. But accurate as can be.
It needs to be powerful but also there needs to be a way to control velocity for when all the excess power isn’t needed.
And I don’t want to spend a arm and a leg for it.
I don’t know if that guns out there. But as they say. Maybe it’s right under my nose right now. Literally.
🙂
GF1,
Sound exactly like what I am looking for 🙂
Let me know if you find one!
Vana2
I did forget one more important thing. The gun has to have what it takes to make the pellet hit in the wind.
Right now I got two guns that will do all I mentioned. All except for one thing. They are kind of pushing the arm and a leg thing on cost. Well I guess their not bad considering those other guns can cost up in the $1500- $3500 range or more at that.
One can stretch it out a little better than the other. But does well at 75 or so yards. The other can hold its own at a100 yards.
You know what guns I’m talking about. The .25 Marauder shooting the H&N 31.02 grain Barracudas and the Talon SS shooting the 15.89 Exact JSB’s.
You have to try a couple and see what I mean. And if you get one or the other or both if your planning on dropping $3500 you’ll have some change left to buy something else.
Maybe a Shoebox compressor or something.
I take it the .22 barrel for the Talon turned out to be a good one?
Reb
Yep very happy with it.
Happy for ya!
Reb
Pretty surprised about how well the JSB 15.89’s shoot out of it.
And unsorted JSB’s at that.
Staying inside the outer circle of the binder stickers at 50 yards that Chris USA told me about. The outside circle is 9/16″ so the shots are staying inside of .563″ at 50 yards.
Yes I’m very happy with that.
Sounds way outta my league!
I just looked at my fence and hope they don’t decide to sue.
Mine too Reb,…. 😉 But workin’ on it!
Reb
You got to start taking precautions for that.
You need a pellet stop of some sort.
Their not that expensive. And you can probably make a better on than you can buy. And pretty quiet when the pellet hits at that.
I got one I made that will stop a .22 rimfire high velocity Aguilla round at 50 yards with no problem. Well and even closer or farther out. It’s got a 1/8″ steel plate behind it and I can keep replenishing the area that I put my targets on.
I had a pretty good one at the old place but it got left on the back burner and the guy hired to haul it got “sick” so I lost it, my shooting bench and who knows what else.
Reb,
On the below pellet trap talk,….you seem pretty resourcefull. Make one.
My first ones were cardboard boxes filled with card board. Add wood. Add steel.
Mine now are wood crates with a 1/8″ steel plate in back and a swinging rubber matt in the middle. Homemade. Will stop 650fps. dead at 5′.
The problem is keeping ALL shots inside the trap, judging by the looks of my fence that would require one about 4’c4′ and as for the resourceful part that requires extra effort and I’m usually spent by the time I get done in the restroom.
I’m just not the same as I was just a year ago.
My glory days are well behind me now.
Vana2,
Hi,…hope you are well. Please send GF1 a pic of that AR20 stock. He did not seem to know what I was talking about.
Forget a pillow,….I could sleep on that. It looks as if you could “melt” into it.
I gotta quit before I get going,……. 😉 Thanks, Chris
Chris USA
If I receive a email and its addressed to multiple people I usually don’t see it. It goes to my spam filter.
I usually dump anything that makes it there. Ain’t got no extra time to look. Not enough time in the day you know.
So if it got sent to multiple people I’m sure I didn’t see it. I know I mentioned that to somebody before.
I used to have things setup for sending emails to you, Buldawg and RDNA all at the same time. I guess you didn’t get any of those?
Reb
I’m sure I didn’t.
I would of responded if I saw it.
If you didn’t get a response; no I didn’t see it.
I could though at some point in time missed responding to a reply to me for who knows what reason.
But if I its sent just to me yes I’m suppose to see it. And yes I try to respond to those I see.
Ain’t that the Co2 target rifle?
If so I’ve been wanting to get one myself.
Have to correct myself there I was thinking about the ar2078 & 2079.
No way I could afford the Hammerli.
Chris USA
Why is it way out of your league too.
You haven’t shot a pcp gun lately?
GF1,
No,…. 😉 I have not shot a PCP lately,…..you just had to go there,..did’nt ya? 😉
Yes,….I see the benifits of PCP. For now,…I see what the springers can do and I just want to do that on a fairly regeular basis. Then….I may consider moving on to PCP’s.
As for the AR-20 pic.,…..it will drop your jaw,…no bull. Vana plays it down,…as we all would for anything we made, ’cause we know all the little flaws. But really….it is a beauty!
Chris USA
Now that I’m thinking about it yes I do believe I saw Vana2’s gun.
It was a light blonde and medium brown laminated skelton stock if I remember right.
Of course words don’t show what the beauty of a picture or true life can ahow.
Definitely it had some nice curves.
GF1,
Yea,….that’s it. The “looks like you could (melt) into it”,…jog your memory?
Chris USA
Yep the melting statement.
That was it.
🙂
GF1,
Curves????…..that thing was ALL curves. Outa here,….back early. Chris
Hi Chris,
All is good here – thanks.
Sent the pictures to GF1 as requested. I should really setup a photobucket account or something like that.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving!
Vana2,
Thank you. If you read the above, I think GF1 remembers it. How could he forget it! 😉
You are a very talented wood worker,…..Chris
BB,
Great article, and some good comments. Regarding the journey to learning how/what makes for accurate guns, I wonder if you can ever short circuit the process…
What I mean is, I think we all go from cheap BB guns to cheap springers, to slightly better springers or gas pistons, learn the artillery hold and pellet selection, and finally start down the path to the PCP’s, and tuning, and …
I bought a pellet rifle (<$100 Gamo) from a sporting goods store, thinking I could shoot pests and maybe an occasional rabbit. But couldn't get decent groups out past about 15 or 20 yards, and the pests just don't seem to want to hang around that close when you start shooting at them. And so, slowly, followed the usual path as outlined in your article and the paragraph above. Now I'm fairly happy with my skills, but looking to ever improve them, with tools more capable and sharper than what I've been using. Would I have the same desire for sharper tools, or the same care and attention to the human side of the shooting equation if I hadn't struggled with a buzzy, twanging spring gun? I doubt it. But as you noted, knowing the right time to step in and offer advice (or a tack driving gun, in the case of your brother) probably helps a lot. A colleague at our sister company helped me look for ways to improve our air gunning, and the conversations and research over the years have led me to see things I haven't before, like this blog. Thanks again for the guideposts on the journey, hope someday to post a few of my own.
B.B.,
Here’s another example of the “odd ammo” rational for reloading. I just thought of another report of yours from a while back about the Webley Mark VI BB gun (and of course by extension the actual firearm). The Webley can’t safely handle the pressures of a .45ACP, but a cartridge that is reloaded to a lesser pressure would be safe. Additionally, the .45ACP bullet is slightly too small in circumference, so a reloader could not only underpower the cartridge, but give it a slightly larger bullet for a more snug fit in the Webley’s bore.
Michael
No ones interested in making my dream done. 3 stroke MP 12 fpe .177 cal air rifle under $300.
Brent
I want one of those too.
How about a 397 Benjamin multi pump.
And I know there is a multi pump that’s made based off the 392 in .22 caliber that is changed around to achieve more than one shot off of a given amount of pumps
Is that the gun you want or close to it maybe?
B.B.,
Off topic, but I’m eagerly waiting for you to test the John Wayne SAA pellet revolver for accuracy. If it’s reasonably accurate I will buy it. I have the BB version with the blued finish and enjoy it very much. But, as always, I would love it if it were more accurate as I hope the pellet version will be. I’m trying to be patient but I hope you get to it in the next week. Have a wonderful, Happy Thanksgiving.
G&G
B.B.,
Man, it seems to be Christmas in November! A full length Mosin Nagant, the John Waynes, AND the new Dan Wessons! We must have all been good little boys.
But I STILL want a steel BB Mac 10 with fake Ingram 2-stage moderator. The steel BB Uzi and Airsoft Mac 10 have both been out for years. C’mon, KWC! 90% of the design is done already.
Michael
I have a Gamo Whisper Cat that I purchased about 2 months ago
Shoots nicely, good groupings, however it sounds strange
Since shots give the loud crack that you would expect from a pellet going supersonic and many do not, it seems to phase in and out of doing this. Using the same pellet throughout. Just finished my first box of 250 shot and thought it would be broken in by now….
Do I need to do some lubricating in the gun or is this more a function of irregular pellets?
I am shooting the Crosman Destroyer pellets
Outofbounds,
Welcome to the blog.
Break-ins can take 1000 shots and more. But your pellets may still be supersonic — just on the edge. The speed of sound varies with humidity and temperature, as well as elevation above sea level and barometric pressure. If you are right at the sound barrier, you may be under now and over in half a hour due to weather changes.
A chronograph is the only way to know for sure.
One thing is certain — lubrication will only prolong your problem, if it is detonation.
B.B.
I enjoyed this entire thread. I wish there was more written about swaging and casting your own pellet ammo! I recently obtained a .30 Rainstorm 2 and recieved much criticism for buying a “mid caliber” rifle. It has a cracked stock and I am tiring of waiting on the repalcement. I thought about exchanging up to a .357? I enjoy the .30 immensely and have ordered a diabolo pellet mold from African Air Ordinance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jctWcbq3gWc
I think casting my own .30 cals is the only way to get a broader range of pellets at a great price. At this time the JSB diabolos are about all thats cookin. The H&Ns are good but even pricier. If I shoot 100 rounds per session, I figure the pellet mold will pay for itself quickly. I really wish their were a broader choice of .30 caliber but realize it is a realitively new cal in airguns. I tried the Hatsan Carnivore first and found it very accurate but it had chambering and hanging problems, even after 300 rounds. It was VERY accurate! The Rainstrom II in .30 cal is also accurate but with the shorter barrel and the MUCH easier and more precise cocking, my wife can shoot it too. My ideal range is between 65 and 100 yards so I wanted accuracy and a bit more punch at distance. I think the .30 or .357 gives that. Enginator
Enginator,
Please let us know how this goes for you when you do it.
B.B.