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Education / Training The Daisy 853: Part 4

The Daisy 853: Part 4

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Daisy 853
Daisy Avanti 853.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • Reader ideas
  • Re-oiling the pump head
  • Old stock screws caused trouble
  • Break the spacer
  • Disassemble the action
  • Assembly
  • What’s next?

Before we begin I want to remind all of you about the Pyramyd AIR Cup. It’s just about three months away! I plan to be there this year, so come out and say, “Hi” if you can.

I also want to remind you about the Texas Airgun Show that’s even closer. The tables are almost filled and most of the major manufaturers and importers will be there. Plus, American Airgunner will be there all day.

Yes, sports fans, we’re back with the Daisy 853 today. Here’s what I learned from all of you after the last report. I learned that many of you consider the 853 to be tricky to work on, as I reported. It’s not because of complexity; it’s because of the method of construction. This rifle is held together by its parts in ways that make assembly a challenge. I suppose you do get better at it after working on many guns, but there are a lot of little tricks I don’t yet know, so I find it challenging.

Reader ideas

A couple of you emailed me offline to tell me that your rifles are performing like mine or worse after a pump rebuild. One guy mentioned seeing air leak at the breech from each shot, which leads me to suspect the bolt. I mentioned that in Part 3, because mine appeared to be chewed up. Today I plan to replace the bolt in my rifle. I’ll show you both the old and new bolts side by side so you can decide whether I’m right in my suspicions.

One reader mentioned in the comments that some clubs require the guns to be stored with the bolts open. That’s going to put a strain on the hammer spring, and since that spring is made from small-gauge wire, it could weaken over time. That would definitely result in lower velocity.

A reader mentioned that when he switched from silicone chamber oil to Crosman Pellgunoil to oil the pump head his rifle gained 15-20 f.p.s. I lubed the o-ring with silicone after the rebuild, so the first thing I will do today is re-oil the pump head with Pellgunoil, which contains 20-weight motor oil.

Finally, a reader commented that perhaps his aluminum pump tube was degraded, though he couldn’t see any evidence of it. I have the same situation. My pump tube appears perfect. But if today’s fixes don’t bump up the velocity of a light pellet, I may install a new tube.

Re-oiling the pump head

First I shot 10 RWS Hobby pellets with the gun as it was. That was with silicone chamber oil on the o-rings and the felt wiper. It averaged 454 f.p.s. with Hobbys. That’s a trifle faster than the last velocity test, but still very close.

Then I oiled the pump head and wiper with Crosman Pellgunoil very liberally and tried again. This time the Hobby averaged 458 f.p.s. That’s too close to call. I don’t think there is much of a difference. Now it was time to disassemble the rifle and replace some parts.

Old stock screws caused trouble

This should have been a 30-minute job. But the front stock screws got cross-threaded and hung me up for over an hour. The right-hand stock screw is hollow and threaded internally to receive the left hand stock screw, and it had cross-threaded. As I was removing the screws I got the left hand screw out, but the right hand screw remained stuck in the stock, where it was jammed crossways in its hole.

Break the spacer

I finally had to break the right side plastic stock spacer to get the barreled action out of the stock. So I won’t be able to install it in the stock until I get new spacers from Daisy. On examination, the threads on the tip of the old stock screw are pretty messed up, which is why I had the problem.

Daisy 853 stock screws
The old stock screw (right) is stripped at the end. On the left is the new stock screw, shown threaded into the hollow screw from the right side of the gun.

The rear stock screw will also be replaced when I put the rifle together again. Instead of a clumsy 2-screw arrangement, Daisy simplified everything with a longer rear stock screw.

Daisy 853 stock screw
The old stock screw system was 2 screws. One screwed into the action and provided a boss (arrow) for the second screw to attach to.

Daisy 853 new stock screw/a>
The two screws on the right were replaced by the single screw on the left. Much simpler!

Disassemble the action

Once the barreled action was free of the stock I disassembled it. It went much faster this time, until I came to the actual action. I needed to replace the hammer spring and the bolt, so the sideplate had to be removed from the action. If this photo below of the inside of the action doesn’t discourage you from working on an 853, you are probably good to go.

Daisy 853 action
The inside of the action looks daunting at first. Take that to heart before undertaking this job!

I replaced the hammer spring, though it didn’t seem much different than the new spring. I used the existing hammer because someone had lubed it with moly and it is a part that doesn’t wear out.

Daisy 853 hammer springs
The new hammer spring (top) looks about the same as the old one. I replaced it anyway.

I also replaced the bolt, because the old one had a number of nicks on the probe that I thought might leak air.

Daisy 853 boltss
The old bolt probe (right) has several nicks that I feared might allow air to escape. I replaced it.


Assembly went much faster than before because I knew some of the tricks. Getting the action side plate back on all those parts and springs took some doing. I probably spent 15 minutes just doing that. Then things went together quickly.

I found that I had to cock the hammer to get the new bolt installed. Daisy doesn’t mention that in their instructions.

The other trick they do tell you about is to use a mallet to strike the top of the receiver (what they call the cover) to seat it. It works, but the first time you do it you will be concerned. This time I was ready for it and got it on the first try.

Then the pump arm was assembled to the action and the rifle was as far along as I could go. I need to order some new stock spacers, plus I had to glue a large chip of wood that removal of the right-side screw blasted out.

The rifle is not together yet, but I did want to see what these parts had done, so I managed to shoot a few shots out of the stock. The average hovered around 450 f.p.s. with Hobbys, so nothing has changed.

What’s next?

Next I plan to assemble the rifle and then test it for accuracy. I will use it at the current power level, which is stable, if not as high as I hoped.

In the future I may return and replace the pump tube and piston — just to see if they have any affect on velocity. Then I hope to modify the trigger for a lighter pull. There is a lot more to come!

223 thoughts on “The Daisy 853: Part 4”

  1. When I rebuilt the guns for the local ROTC, I resealed them, and put new hammer springs and sometimes bolts if it failed the toilet paper puff test. ( lay a single sheet of toilet tissue over the bolt area when fired with a pellet, if it puffed, you had a leak)

    After rebuilding, they all ran in the 450-460 range, with a very low extreme spread, but I never replaced the pump tube.

    It will be interesting to see if that bumps the fps up.

    I always liked the piston arrangement on the Daisy 7×7 series of pistols, it is adjustable in length to get zero gap, and therefore full use of all the air you were compressing.

      • This is not on topic at all. Purchased a 2300s and the tip of the barrel has groves on it. Is this normal or a bad barrel?
        The groves are side by side and I would have to say look triangular if that makes sense. It’s shooting high and I can’t get it down as the Williams sight has no adjustment length as its tightened all way down. Sending back to Crosman but still curious about the grooves. As ive seen talk of crowns and looked at pictures but dont see grooves on barrel tips in the pictures. Groove IN barrel yes, just not on end.
        Thanks for your help


    • 45Bravo,

      Thanks for the tissue tip. What a good idea. I read that and immediately did it on the M-rod. Not a single “ruffle” of the tissue. Happy me. 😉

      • Cool, glad to help.
        That’s what we are here for, to help each other.

        My dad once told me,
        Everyone you will meet in this life knows something you don’t, so learn from them.

        This blog is the place where we learn stuff from each other.

      • The rifles can go through tens of thousands of rounds with minimal maintenance.
        Just a little oil.
        Sitting without use is the hardest on them.
        Things dry out.

        When I started working on the schools guns, only 4 were inoperable, out of 25 guns.

        And according to the Major none of them had been rebuilt in the 5 years he had been there.

        After I repaired the 4, I went through the rest of them in turn.

        They had always thought the replacement parts were too expensive to repair them.

        But Daisy, like Crosman are very reasonable on their prices.

        Most people just don’t know that.

        • The Major had also been having his cadets pump the guns 3 times before firing each shot.
          I explained the valve on the guns didn’t work well when used like that. And what little gain in fps was not worth the trade off in velocity swings between shots.

          Coupled with the added fatigue of the extra pumping for the shooters, the scores were probably suffering too.

          He didn’t believe me until I brought my chronograph there, let his cadets shoot 10 shot strings with their rifles over the chrono, then compare them to single pump 10 shot strings.

          Even before the rebuilds, with guns shooting in the 375-410 range they were very consistent, just slow.

              • 45Bravo
                Kind of thought it might be that way.

                It’s a tuff job but somebody has to do it.

                I do that same thing everyday at work.

                My day consists of people’s problems that keeps them from doing their job. If it breaks I got to make it go. Otherwise things don’t happen

                Alot of pressure in a sense. But done it so long it’s like second nature. And it’s not often that I don’t get things back roll’n. So kind of good feeling too when it all comes together.

                Yep a lot of behind the scene people make things happen and all to often don’t get recognized. All you people like that keep on keep’n on. Somebody knows what your worth.

                  • 45Bravo

                    I’m I guess what you call in a sense a jack of all trades but master of none.

                    I’m a machinist by trade. But I do whatever is in front of me. I’m called a machinist/maintenance/machine tech. Done it for about 32 years now. I work in a production machine shop.

                    Done alot of military work in the past and now including 20, 25, 30 and 40 mm projectiles and nuch more plus automotive and some firearm stuff.

                    So yep kind of been around the block in a sense. Seen alot of stuff happen in the machining world throughout time that’s for sure.

                    It has been a exciting job for sure. And it’s kept me working all my life so that’s a good thing too.

                    Sometimes get tired of fixing problems all the time. But don’t nt think I would have it any other way.

  2. BB
    All you had to do to remove the hollow left hand srew was thread the right hand srew back in a turn or two then take a small hammer and give the right hand screw a tap. The small hollow left hand screw would of popped right out of the stock.

    Then all you would of needed to do is hold the head of the left hand screw with some pliers and unscrew the right hand bolt. Of course and becareful so you wouldn’t scratch the stock. And then get new replacement left and right hand screws.

    Did that make sense?

      • BB
        I had to laugh. Not at you. But yes that does make perfect sense. You don’t know how many of those situations I run into at work everyday. And I really do hate when those 10 parts don’t want to line up. 😉

          • BB
            Again laughing. Yes I know. There never seems to be the exact right tool made for a job.

            You wouldn’t believe all the tools I have in my box at work that I made when I came upon a project with no way to work on it.

            You got to do what you got to do to get the job done as they say.

            • B.B. and GF1

              An old man I used to work with called those “jewel tools” they were mostly just taking up space, (Like jewels I suppose) but u we’re glad to have them when u needed them! (Valuable like jewels)

            • For gun disassembly and re assembly I use Bamboo chop sticks from the Chinese restaurants.
              I keep a few in my kit, it doesn’t mar the finish, pushes pins, with a paper towel wrapped around the tip, it reaches nooks and crannies.

              And they are free.

  3. BB– what is wrong with 450 fps? My Gletcher 1944 (and my friends 1944) shoot Avanti BB,s at that velocity range. Even with crude millitary open sights, a Russian style trigger pull, and an un-ergonomic club type stock, they make 1/2″ groups at 10 M . Larger groups are our fault. Given the target stock, sights and trigger the 853 should be far ahead of the m 1944,s. Plus you have lots of pellets to try to find the best grouping pellet for the 853. I would rather see accuracy instead of velocity tests to see if your replacements made for better groups. The 853 is a target rifle, and as long as the pellet leaves the barrel and makes a clean hole in the target, who cares about velocity (within reason, of course)? Other than leaks if the velocity remains stable, Why replace the parts thar you are doing, unless it improves the accuracy. Its the size of the group that I care about. Ed

    • Ed
      I have to agree with you about velocity. Slowing them down works out better than speeding them up sometimes.

      I know when I shoot that 1377 that I converted into a rifle with Discovery parts is a heck of a good shooter with 5 pumps. And what I like is when I shoot at a can at 20 yards it wacks it hard and goes flying. If I pump it up to 10 pumps and shoot at a can at 20 yards it just goes right through the can like it never got hit.

      So energy transfer works a little different at lower velocities. It’s like shooting a big ole hunk of .45 caliber lead at low velocity. Knock down stopping power is what I’m talking about.

      So yes velocity can work in different ways for different circumstances. Fast or even moderate high velocity ain’t always the best.

      • You hit it on the head of what I have always said.

        Remember when you were a kid with a red rider, or 102 spring BB gun, you shot birds, and other critters, they fell stone dead.

        When you moved up to a multi pump. You shot the same critters, saw a puff of feathers, as the pellet passed through, and the target flew merrily on for a few moments.

        It is all about energy transfer at low velocities.

      • Gunfun1
        Good points! That’s why the British liked the low velocity .455 and .38-200.
        Nice thing about pumpers is you can adjust velocity for best accuracy or whatever you need.

    • Hi Zimbabweed
      I was intrigued with your comments on the Gletcher 1944. Wow 1/2 ” groups at 10 M with a cool looking Russian rifle. I see on the Pyramyd AIR site, that they made only 200 of them. Looks like this would be a fun shooting collectable BB rifle. Do you happen to know why the limited production.

  4. Zimbabwe Ed beat me to the comment. What’s wrong with 450fps? As you stated when you tested 10 meter pistols that the velocity required for those was nothing over 500fps, why is there a collective expectation for higher velocity from a rifle that is supposed to hit a target accurately at 10 meters?

    Many times you have also stated that for liability reasons manufacturers of airguns frequently overstate the velocity of their products. Maybe this is one of those occasions.

  5. BB,
    I am recently getting back into Air Guns and was reading your blog and curious as to what happened to the Daisy 953? After reading about the 853 I was looking into purchasing one but could not find it on Pyramyd’s site.

  6. Very nice on all there tear down stuff and the “blow by blow” on the parts. The marks on the bolt probe are quite odd as they do not run linier. It appears that some Neanderthal went a little Captain Caveman on it. Plastic or metal? Yes, first look at the action does set one aback for a moment. Study it for a bit though and it really looks quite simple with relatively few parts.

  7. B.B.

    Wow this little rifle has been stubborn! It has been pretty neat to watch u tackle this even though it sounds like it has been a little time stealer.

  8. Buldawg 76

    I’m glad to hear about the sleeping patterns changing in your favor. Hopefully I didn’t just jynx you 😉

    I second that on the marauder Pumper! Even if it retailed for $450 as an “adult” model I would buy it in a heart beat. Even GF1’s Thirtisco hybrid would be so cool. I can excuse all the pumping for a gun I can shoot well. I can hit a soda can pretty regularly with my 392 at like 45yds. Just imagine how a pump mrod would beat the pants off of the 392 and bring more joy to the adults who want a pneumatic but cant afford all the accessories that come with a pcp? That’s what’s stopping me personally right now. The 397/392 are great for what they are but many could argue they are more of an intermediate level rifle.

    • PH
      You don’t know how big of a mistake it will be for Crosman if they don’t biuld a modern day pumper useing the Marauder rifle as the base.

      When I brought that design up to Buldawg the other day. The gun would have all the good selling points going for it.

      A big tube and long stroke for more air volume to compress each stroke which would equal more power if needed. A breech that could accept a rotary magazine or single shot tray. Then a shrouded barrel with baffles to make the gun back yard friendly. Oh and it would have one of the best triggers probably on a pumper with a Marauder trigger. And they could even offer it with a synthetic or wood stock similar to a Marauder with the adjustable comb. I have to raise the question. Seriously why would someone not buy one?

      And I guess you also mean my 1377/Discovery I made. That has been brought to Crosman’s attension by me and a few other people. The only response I got to that by Crosman is they wanted to see more pictures of the gun which I sent them. All I have heard since from them is crickets chirping if you know what I mean. In other words dead quiet. So what does that mean. They are working on it and don’t want to talk or they just let it go by the way side.

      Whatever they want to do I guess. But both guns I would like to see them biuld. But maybe even I would like the Marauder based pumper the most.

      And Crosman could just loose out on making some money. You know the saying. You snooze you loose. Well look at Umarex. They are turning out all kinds of air guns. If they catch into what were talking about they might just biuld the world’s first modern day pumper based on he Marauder design.

      We’ll see how this goes. But I do think I will keep contacting Crosman and bugging them about both guns. Some one here says I tend to be persistent and that is the truth when I want to see something happen. So Crosman get ready to get bothered about some pumpers.

      • GF1

        Yes! I hadn’t even thought about the more technical aspects especially the pumping stroke. Maybe one pump could generated enough power to shoot 10yd/m?

        Maybe also with enough volume there could be room left to after market (much how many on here most recently u and ChrisUSA) have modded Ur mrods. We could see change in springs to generate two decent shots to give the possibility of a quick follow up for close range pesting? With a multishot clip it could be very effective on a follow up. I have no data in front of me and am relatively ignorant still, so I’m not sure if that would be plausible? Even pumping between each shot but having the repeater is a huge bonus!

        Definitely good idea on the stocks. The 39x models are way out of their league on scoping capabilities. I see people scope them but it’s obvious that the way they are mounted and the cheek placement is inferior to the mrod. (I love my 392 guys, don’t think I don’t)

        You are right. I think they are losing out big time. If the wonder rifles sell due to marketing then why can’t a modern Pumper? Promote LESS pumping for starters. Thats what helps to tip the scales to the springers. Then give it the ability to shoot faster. Since the power is adjustable you wouldn’t have to wear yourself out as quickly with pumping in a target session. Makes them back yard friendly and gives longer range target shooting and dif types of hunting more flexibility. Because you control the power. if u could get this thing figured out to pump let’s say 1-7 times (just numbers) and spend a little on advertisement that is a little outside the box we COULD have the NEXT BIG THING. Maybe I’m out of touch with the customer base but I would buy one and probably sell a rimfire and definitely my magnum springers to do it. (Not the Dianas 😉 )

        I’m hard at work with little breaks to add to this comment. I know it makes for chopped up ideas but hopefully this comes across the way I intend

        • PH
          And those were all good points you made.

          Maybe BB can give somebody a ring at Crosman today and tell them that if their smart they should read today’s blog.

          • GF1

            I think that would be great as well. I guess we can dream. 😉 (not saying B.B. wouldn’t contact them, just saying it’s hard to put a voice out there and have the largest of wigs listen)

            Maybe even somehow include a folding pump arm assist to add a few inches to the pump arm when flipped out? Gotta use some metal though. 😉

              • Guys,

                You overstate my pull at Crosman. They did listen to me in the past, but that time is over.

                I did get this project started, though. I just called Dennis Quackenbush and talked to him about it.

                Crosman’s problem is they have to sell thousands of something to break even. It’s fine for three or four of us to say we would buy something if it were made, but Crosman needs to sell thousands, just to make it worth their while.

                You are talking about a multi-pump that might cost around $800. It is more complex than the Marauder, so it has to cost more. How many guys would pay that price? Or even $650? They are already griping about the Armada.

                What they would do is say, “Man, that’s too much! If they would just make it to sell for $400, I’d buy one.”

                Building a new gun like this is risky. Yes, the payoff can be huge, as it was with the Discovery and Marauder. It can also be a huge loss, like the Rogue. You don’t stay in business too long with big losses.

                I agree that this project is probably a moneymaker for Crosman — if only because the FX Independence exists. Crosman could make a rifle that might sell for half the cost of the Indy, yet have more features (transfer port and hammer spring adjustability). But the crowd that likes the Independence is very small. It’s not a Wal-Mart crowd. It’s specialized, so Crosman has to pick their project carefully.

                • BB
                  Agree with all that. But if somebody don’t stand up and make a effort towards making something happen nothing will happen.

                  So as said better to bug them about it than to say nothing at all.

                  I think a blog got started that way in the past if I remember right. 😉

                • B.B.

                  I too agree with all of that. I totally understand what u have said.

                  There has to be a way to improve the venerable 39x models. It is wishful thinking to get exactly what we want but look at the following the 13xx models are getting for a less than $80 gun. They are so customizable that people make it work for their purposes.

                  It seems impossible to get anything better as long as the 39x models are current. They fill the sloppy niche of upper powered pump guns. And look at the quality of them today. Cheap wood wobbly construction heavy trigger. But look what can be done with it. Buy a Williams peep and a Benjamin super sear and u have a decent shooter on Ur hands. Not too mention what else people are doing (steroid 392)

                  If only we could get them to get the “guts” and “shell” of a new gun available to us. Like in the custom shop. The guys that are super interested could just do what we have always done and modded them to our liking.

                  I’m not trying to ruffle any feathers here guys. 🙂

                • BB
                  The way I see it with the marauder based pumper is there are only a very few parts that need changed or redesigned.

                  Those would be the valve as it would need a check valve added in the nose and that could integrate the gauge block as a extension of the current valve to include both he gauge and check valve, then just a piston head assy with pump arm linkage and forearm that could be cut from a current stock and attached to the pump linkage. Then just leave all the other parts and designs in place with hammer spring and stroke adjustments and even the sir screw although it would not really be needed since the number of pumps and hammer adjustments would allow for multiple setting of the gun for low to high power shooting situations.

                  It would require some investments yes but if they stay as close to the original Mrod design and part usage it could be quickly recouped in sales that I believe would be far more than those in marketing could predict.

                  I truly believe it is a risk worth tasking and would pay big return for them if they did build one.

                  The 100 dollar PCP may have inspired the Maximus but it is not anywhere near a 100 dollar in cost to buy one so that is not a good example IMO.


        • I don’t know if Umarex could pull it off at the moment.

          Not because they don’t have the initiative, but because nowhere in their lineup (that we are familiar with at least)
          Is there a either a design close to the marauder, nor close to the 13xx)
          To combine to make the gun, without paying big bucks for the patents, and manufacturing rights from another company.

          It’s going to have to come from a company (large or small) that has an existing design and technology in their lineup, and willing to take the chance.

          There was a gun called “the millennium pumper” that didn’t go far, based on a discovery with lots of modifications.

          Dennis Quakenbush is probably a good one to test to see if it is possible, small enough to build it without lawyer interference, but large enough to get them out there to sell.

          • 45Bravo
            Look at the new pcp that Umarex just released the is very similar to the AirForce brand pcp’s.

            I don’t think Umarex has anything similar in their line to that gun.

            From what I have seen of Umarex is they can spit out a new design just about every other day it seems. They are onto something with however they are running their company.

            I think Umarex will have more surprises in the future.

            • The first time I saw the Umarex name was several years ago was on the airsoft guns, they were one of the first companies that were actually getting licensing to use the names of the real guns they were copying. (Colt, walther, and others. ) in looking at the umarex website, if you are talking about the Dominator, isn’t that a walther or Hamerli 850?

              I could be wrong, but I don’t think Umarex by name makes guns, I think they send their specs to other companies and has them build them to suit Umarex’s goals.

              • 45Bravo,

                Umarex is the parent company of Walthe, who is based in Ulm. They do make both firearms and airguns under that name. They also make some things in Amberg, their home city.

                They also own Hammerli, but they make their airguns in China for that name. For the branded lines of airguns they source many of them in China and Taiwan.


                • Thank you.
                  I knew you would know the answer.

                  Is Umarex releasing a new PCP along the airforce lines as mentioned by Gunforfun1, or so far just the Walther offerings?

                  I love my Talon.

                  I also own a Umarex/Walther .22 rimfire Uzi carbine, It’s a fun little gun, and is a counterpart to the Norinco 9mm Uzi my wife bought me for a wedding gift back in 1995.

                  I keep looking at the Umarex/Walther MP5SD .22 rimfire, I don’t know why I want it, but I do.

                    • I have seen the videos of them, I hope to be able to handle one at the Kalamazoo airgun show in August.
                      I am saving up for something, I have a want for a hatsan gladius.
                      But am open to others.
                      I like to handle or shoot something before I buy it.
                      I am really big on how something FEELS.

                      If you don’t like how the gun handles or feels, you won’t enjoy shooting it, therefore you won’t use it as much as one you do like.

                      That is why I like the crosman mk1&2 series, they just FEEL right.

      • While you are looking at it as a modern pump up gun. It sounds like you are thinking of a dump valve like the 13xx series.

        I think it could be incorporated into the mrod tube AND leave a little room for reserve air.

        Think the fx Indy.
        3-5 shots then a few pumps and you are back in business.
        It could be as little as 3-5 pumps per shot.

        And since the base gun is already there, the R&D cost is reduced.
        I have tuned my stock .22 marauder to run on a 2000psi fill at about 860fps with 14.3’s for 40 shots.

        The useable pressure is within the realm of a compound leverage pumper I think.

        • 45Bravo
          Yep that would be a good idea too.

          I even mentioned to Buldawg the other day I would love to see the gun were talking about made into a big bore pumper. I bet it would make enough pressure to shoot a .30 caliber pellet at a reasonable velocity.

          Just like we was talking about elsewhere on today’s blog. Couldn’t you imagine what the knock down power would be with a .30 caliber pellet if you adjusted the amount of pumps for velocity for a given distance.

          If I had a gun like we’re talking about as a kid. And especially if it was .30 caliber I would of been the star of the neighborhood. Heck my buddies about flipped out when I got my Benji 392 when we was kids. We was shooting Daisy 880’s I believe that some of them had and I had a 760. So when I showed up with the big .22 caliber 392 every body was amazed how it could flatten one side of a tin can and still exit on the other side.

          Yep I would definitely buy a Marauder based multi-pump rifle. And the bigger the caliber they made the more excited I would be.

          • It’s not all about fill pressure, a lot of people equate fill pressure to power.
            (Fps and pressure numbers sell. To the general public, if for no other reason than bragging rights)

            The Girandoni air rifle used about 800psi and launched 20 .40 caliber balls off that fill.

            It’s about making the best use out of what you have available.

            In my opinion.

            • 45Bravo
              The Girandoni is one of my most favorite air guns. Mainly because of the low fill psi. Well and the chunk of lead it shoots.

              But yep I got a Crosman 1077 converted to high pressure air. It now shoots at a higher velocity than it did with Co2. Plus I only fill a 88 gram cartridge to 1200 psi and I can get about 50 usable shots per fill. Plus I can pull the trigger as fast as I can and velocity won’t slow up like Co2 does when you rapid fire.

              Like you said. It’s all about what works for a particular gun. There all a little different.

        • 45 Bravo

          Thanks for saying what I don’t have the knowledge to. I didn’t realize that kind of technology was already a reality. I think that could make taking on a project like this more economical for crosman. Lets face it, money talks.

          Nice shot count on the mrod BTW. Those kind of numbers with that velocity leads me towards your way of thinking as well

          • PH
            That’s what is cool about the Marauder.

            With the spring adjustment and striker adjustment and also the transfer port flow adjustment you can set them up as a low fill pressure gun also.

            Usually when you go higher pressure fills like I have with my .25 caliber Marauder. Is when your make air flow mods to the gun and are after higher velocity’s and shot count.

            The smaller .177 and .22 caliber Marauders are easier to get a higher shot count and velocity out of them. They take less air to move the pellet than what it takes for the bigger .25 caliber pellet.

            And not putting 45 Bravo’s tune down. But he could probably get even higher velocity with about the same shot count out of his. Just add a 12# striker spring and the o-ring debounce mod and a higher fill psi of 3500psi. It would wake his gun up even more.

            But I’m betting he’s after the easier to pump up low fill psi with his tune.

            • The tune on my marauder was where it grouped best, I tried faster and slower, but it liked the mid 800’s.
              I sold it to a friend, he went up and down the scale, where I had been.

              He called me a couple of months later asking what the settings were as he didn’t record them before he started turning screws.

              He went back to my settings and left it there.

              • 45Bravo
                Like I said in my reply above.

                Each gun seems to like something a little different than the next. They have to be shot and learned what they like.

                Some guns you can throw whatever pellet you want in it and it will shoot good. Then take another gun and it won’t shoot good but with only one particular pellet.

                But to me that’s what makes air gunning fun.

        • 45Bravo
          The thing about the Mrod based pumper is if it had all the adjustments still in place as it has now it could be tuned to be pumped 10 times and either be a full dump gun or get 3 or 4 shots out of those ten pumps. You can adjust hammer spring tension, hammer stroke and transfer port orifice size thereby limiting how much or little air is used per shot.

          What I would like to see ids it retain all the feature the Mrod has now and only change the valve to incorporate the gauge block as part of the valve it has now with a check valve in the nose of the valve so you would actually see just how much pressure you increased the in the valve with each pump. By incorporating the gauge block as part of the entire valve they could increase the internal volume of the valve to be quite large giving the ability to get multiple shots from 10 pumps with the proper tune. Then just slot the present air reservoir to install the end plug that would create the hinge point for pump linkage and piston assy and cut the stock at the appropriate length to make the handle to pump it up from so that you would have a MSP that could shoot 3 or 4 shots at 4 to 500 fps or one shot at 900 plus fps in at least the 3 current calibers and possibly add one in at .30 caliber.

          I think it would be a great seller and not require a lot of research and development since the basic platform is already well proven.


          • I agree with incorporating the gauge so you could monitor the pressure.

            But since it’s already a repeater, (I know you can use a single shot tray) I would hate to lose one of the main features of the mrod.
            I personally think most hunters would like to get more than one shot.

            I would be happy with 3-5 shots, then have to pump it back up.

            That would also make it a direct competititor of the FX Independence, but at a much lower price point, thereby appealing to a wider crowd.

            While not quite the Walmart crowd, the cost if the FX has kept me and many others away.
            But many hunters would like an all in one package with no external support equipment.

            Many times on the GTA and other forums, I have seen new Airgunners so excited when they first hear about the Indy, but then faint at the sticker price.

            Many of them went on to other PCP guns, but still lamented about having to carry a hand pump or guppy bottle into the woods.

            If it would be the comparitavely priced to the mrod and a hand pump, I could live with that..

            Yea, it would sell..

            • 45Bravo
              I agree in the fact that I would like more than one shot per pumping session on it as well but since I have 2 177 Mrods and a 25 and all are equipped with single shot trays and I have only used the magazine like twice in the 177s and never in my 25 it is of no consequence to me to get more than one shot in all reality.

              I don’t hunt per say except for pest that show up in my backyard so just have never had the need for the magazines myself.

              I have looked at the FX and as you say the price turned me away instantly since I am more of a power shooter than getting several shot so the FX is definitely not with what they want to get more than one shot out of a pumper.

              I do agree if they built the Mrod pumper it would sell since as I said it could be tuned to get multiple shots per pumps or one full dump shot so it had appeal to more than one audience base.

              I would pay in the 600 dollar range for one if it kept all the current features intact as they are now with the exception of what is required to make it a pumper, 750 would be higher than I would be willing to pay myself since the Mrod can be had for under 500 right now making it a pumper would not add 250 to the cost IMO.


      • GF1

        Just wanted to post this on this weekend blog for all see and if they are going to be in the Heflin, AL area on the weekend of June 24th thru 26th stop by and watch the match as our range is at the direction in this link.


        Yea I may try that and speaking of FT matches I am up this early as we are having our monthly match today so just getting caught up before I leave in a few minutes. Then after the match we are rearranging the whole course to prepare for the Southern open that is going to be the 24 Thru the 26th of this month and is a sanctioned match.

        It should be fun as we are shooting international rules on Saturday of 25 lanes with one target per lane and 2 shots per target for a perfect score of 50 and then Sunday it will be US rules of 15 lanes with 2 targets per lane with 2 shot per target for a perfect score of 60 and a total score possible of 110 for the two days.

        PA will be there on Saturday holding some fun shoot games after the match so that should be interesting as well. they are the only vendor that will be there as far as I know at this time.

        I had also thought about adding the weight on the barrel inside the shroud but behind the front shroud support so it does not affect the baffles at all. it would be between the breech and the front support. I know it would take more to do the same as if it was around the outside of the shroud but it would still retain the stock sleeper look. I am going to look at all the options and test it first on the 25 as I am not sure if the 177 really needs any extra weight as its more me not holding the gun steady than the gun itself not staying on target.

        But got to run to get to the match so will talk later.


          • GF1
            Well I took Shawn’s Mrod today to shoot since it has the side wheel yardages taped out on the wheel and is scope I took off my Mrod when I put the Hawke Airmax scope on my Mrod. I have not had a chance to dope my side wheel yet on the Airmax.

            I shot a 21/48 so not my best but better than last match and it was cloudy and a bit windy today. Then after the match we picked up all the targets and strings to get them all painted and ready for the open in 3 weeks. So I have till then to get my scope taped and the gun sighted in to be match ready.

            So how’s your 100 yard competition going so far and who’s leading now.

            I wish I had my 25 shooting so I could have stayed at the sight in range to shoot some 100 yard targets. I did not take my Hatsan since I thought we would be working most of the day after the match but it only took about an hour to get everything up with 10 people doing the work.

            Just as well as I did not sleep good at all last night so am tired now and just going to relax the rest of the day.


            • BD
              At least you got and hopefully enjoyed a day of shooting away from home.

              And check out the results below. I’ll send you a email of the pictures of my groups.

              And one of the groups was exstreamly good. 9 shots went into a 13/16″ group that was as round as could be. But one shot that was a flyer made the over all group 1-5/16″.

              You can see what I mean in the pictures. It’s probably the best group I’ll ever get out here with all the wind all the time. So real happy with the results.

              But emailing you now.

              • GF1
                Got the email yesterday and all I can say is WOW and I think you need to stick to 5 shot groups so you wont get that flyer that ruins the group.

                I would have replied yesterday but I relaxed on the couch and that was the last I knew until about 3am this morning so I was tired from the match and tearing down the course yesterday and am still sore and tired today still.

                Both you and Chris are doing very well and qualify for members of the NUAH ( nothing under a hundred ) club on the GTA since it requires a 5 shot group be inside a 4″ circle at 100 yards to join and if you only shot 5 shots on that second group you would have been under an inch .

                I bet that was at 6 power as well on the scope.


                • BD
                  First I’ll say it was a ideal day and I felt good too. Plus was a little hyped about the competion.

                  I know you heard me mention before I don’t really want to air gun compete. I know how I get. Basically in the long run I stress myself out. I try to hard and its just not worth it in to many ways. For me and the family.

                  And I know. I wanted to stop shooting and call that the group. But I said I would do 10. It’s always like that.

                  But I shot today with wind. I could still hit a 2″ by 5″ long corn cob no doubt. But the wind today was 10 mph up and you wouldn’t believe how much different the groups were today.

                  You did see how I noted the the pictures of which way the wind came from.

                  It definitely changed group shape and POI today.

                  But yep going into all this I already new what the gun was capable of and pretty much new what the results would be.

                  And I got a young velvet 4 point buck standing right out in front of me 60 yards out. I just love this place and seeing the wild life. Got a purple Martin that had baby’s last year and this year that gets the bugs around the yard. She follows me around the yard getting bugs when I cut grass. Then had some big red Hawks chasing each other in the clouds and baby blue sky’s today. Man those birds can fly.

                  And yes I don’t hunt any more. And I hope that buck grows up to be a big one.

                  • GF1
                    I know what you mean about the competition in shooting since I started FT matches I have seen some of the guys get very upset at their poor performances on a given day of shooting and this is just at the informal matches we have each month.

                    I know they have done it for years and take it far more serious than I do since for me its more about the fun and camaraderie than me shooting a perfect match since that will never happen with my age and eyesight as it is now.

                    But remember when I told you about the one member having a bad day and throwing his Ripley with the March scope in the mud because he was missing that day. Well that Ripley was one of only 6 in the USA and was a custom made gun. I just wish I was there to catch it as it would have had a hard time giving it back.

                    I am hoping my valve and TP adapter will be ready this week so I can get mine together and in on the shooting with you two but I will have to go to the sight in range to do it as I don’t have 100 yards here to shoot. I could get in on it with my Hatsan since I can hit the 3″ spinner at 100 yards with it repeatedly now with 18 grain JSBs.

                    That’s cool that you have the dear and the martin hanging out on your land and I don’t hunt anymore either except for the pest critters that show up in my backyard shorting area.


                    • BD
                      I don’t get stupid and throw stuff if I loose when I compete. I get stupid trying to get better. Alot of time and money involved that I take away from my family.

                      I just got to always try to make it work. Especially if somebody tells me it won’t work. And I know you know what I mean. Like you I don’t follow the rules when somebody says that can’t be done done. I will try my darndest to prove them wrong.

                      And yep can’t wait till you get your .25 Mrod go’n. And no. No shooting competion for me when you get it going. You and Chris can do that this next time around.

                      And yes this place is cool. We had wild life at the other house. But out here it’s like their free. You can tell the difference. They go about their biusness like nothing else exists.

                    • BD
                      Oh and I know what you mean about your Hatsan. My .22 Talon SS is almost as good as my .25 Mrod. Notice I say almost. It will get out there and group. But the longer distance affects groups when its windy. And usable shots for psi at that distance drop off faster than my .25 Mrod.

                      And you said your Hatsan is fast. And if it likes that fps good. That’s what it’s all about. Getting the gun figured out. Some fall right in place and some are a pain in the butt.

                    • GF1
                      The Hatsan is the only air gun I have bought that I have not done anything to in the way of mods or tuning as it is just that good as I received it. It does shoot fast but I believe its partly due to the 23 inch barrel and the fact that Hatsans are tuned for power from the factory and it shoots the 18 JSB at 975 fps and gets 35 shots per 3000 psi fill so I am afraid to touch it since it does so good.

                      If the wife’s land was closer to town by even half the distance we would have just stayed there since I could have had at least a 300 yards range to shoot anything I wanted out there since it was on the side of a mountain with a creek and woods surrounding it. To late now though.

                      I know I should not have said challenge but rather just some fun shooting for comparison and I know on my better days I do shoot pretty good but I have issues with my stability that makes the longer ranges more difficult its the little movements that are amplified the farther we shoot.

                      I bet you did get startled by the does just as much as you startled them probably but its cool that they are that close to your house .


                  • GF1
                    I don’t throw stuff either as I cant afford to tear up what I have that I have worked hard to build and enjoy. His bad day was a score of like 30/48 instead of a 44/48 or something to that effect so his bad day was equal to the best day I have had in two years of doing it.

                    He was not at the last match, but was here yesterday but not with the Ripley so not sure he even still has it. He had a bad day yesterday as well and did not even complete the whole course.

                    Yea we both have always took the challenge of when someone says it cant be done or it wont work head on with true stubbornness to succeed at all costs.

                    Yea I was not challenging you as you will out shoot me most times if not all but its all just for fun anyway so not a big deal.

                    I do wish at time we had kept the wife’s land when we met but it was just to far out in the country for me since it was 45 minutes to the nearest grocery store.


                    • BD
                      Yep that’s another good thing about here. It’s only about 2 or so miles to where all the stores and stuff is at. So yep lucky on that part too.

                      And I know didn’t make it as a challenge. And please don’t say that. You know you can shoot good. And you know as well as I do. Things change. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it’s a pain in the bit to get any kind of good result.

                      And I’m wrapping it up for tonight. Just went out to get my target stop out at 50 yards and to mature doe ran past me about 20 yards away. They weren’t going fast but they did run all the way to the woods a 100 yards or so away. I was just standing up from getting my target. Yes they startled me this time.

    • Punchin Holes
      Sleep is getting better slowly but not completely corrected as I did not sleep well Friday night but did last night but also went to my monthly FT match so I was walking up and down hills shooting all morning and then helped tear the course down to get ready for our Southern open in three weeks.

      I brought up the Mrod pumper because I just bought a 397 last week and when it arrived I was very disappointed in its appearance as well as its performance. I did not like the black powder coat or dipped coating at all as compared to the original brass black finish of the early models since I own a Sheridan silver streak and just got done building a 70 model blue streak for a customer those are the gun I prefer. I also shot and sighted in that blue streak before I returned it to the customer so I was very familiar with the feel and pump action of the old guns and the new 397 I got was noisy and very rough pumping and did not seem develop near the power per pimp as the blue streak did and I could not get it to hit a consistent group in at least 30 shots so it was sent back for a refund.

      it may have gotten better shooting with some break in but I just could not warm up to the ugly black coating it had with the gold silk screened writing on it that made it look cheap.

      So that is what got GF1 and me talking about what we would really like in a MSP gun and for us a Mrod based MSP with all the Mrod features but a pumper instead of a PCP was what we wanted and if they build it I will be one of the first to buy one guaranteed. It has to retain all the adjustments and parts of the current Mrod only pump up instead of fill with HPA.


      • BD76

        Glad to hear it! A little mild exercise can go a long way! Sounds like a successful shooting day as well. How do u like Ur hatsan pcp? I like the idea of hatsan but I wasn’t super impressed with the mod95 but the stock was awesome and I guess overall it was good for the price. They even kept irons on even if they were fiber optic.

        I hear ya on the quality aspect. I don’t know if I envy or pity the guys older than me with regards of Daisy, Crosman, Sheridan and Benjiman. You guys grew up with some of the coolest guns those companies ever made. In the ’90s I grew up with all the plastic junk Crosman and Daisy were putting out. Any of my buddies parents and my own grandfather hoarded their old crosmans and Daisys from the kids knowing the oldies couldn’t be replaced with the new junk. (Keeping it G rated, I have several other words I would rather use). I know how business works and profits and blah blah blah all the other aspects that keep the big wheels turning. I’ve dealt with that all my life. I understand these are budget guns more or less in the grand scheme.

        I can imagine your dissapointment when u got your new 397… Do you know how excited I was when I discovered the brand name Benjiman? I was equally crushed when I found out my new 392 was a glorified Crosman.

        I had my reservations about ripping off the old sights that is crudely placed on the barrel. I installed the peep sight and then took a hobby file and butchered the front post till it was half as wide. It looks like garbage but it works to it’s full potential for sight picture. I then put a strip of hot pink nail Polish on it and I don’t feel like I ruined a thing!

        It was such a doubled edged sword for me.
        It was better than the m4. I absolutely hate that that rifle looks close enough from a distance for any person to have a chance at mistaking it for a real one. I am not bashing “black guns”. I just wanted an accurate lower powered Pumper and at the time (before PA) that’s all the local store would sell me without a FOID. The law has changed in Illinois in recent years and I didn’t have my FOID a few years back when I bought it. They wouldn’t even sell me a 2100b!

        So I’m done ranting. I was actually upset enough that I pushed the scales in my favor and bought a new “toy”. The whole story is below but in short I bought a new HW30S. I have had German steel and craftsmanship in my hands and I know the “new guy” won’t dissapoint. Gotta track down a peep for it next.

        One final thought. I am totally on board for a pumprod. Like someone else said. If it can be had for a similar price to the original with hand pump then I’m in. I know that doesn’t count for much but like GF1 said we gotta start somewhere. Unless someone makes a Springer comparable to the slavia 634 (moderate power easy to shoot) the springer fad is going to wear itself out.

        Seriously I’m going to get off my soapbox before someone knocks me off! 🙂

        • Punchun Holes
          I love my Hatsan AT 44S10 Long which has the synthetic stock so its a bit lighter than the nice wood ones but I have never been all that much for appearances as compared to function plus it was on sale for 354 bucks when I bought it 2 years ago. I have since upgraded the stock to the new thumbhole stock that Hatsan came out with this year so it even nicer now as I like my thumbhole stocks since they have a more relaxed wrist position which help with my arthritis.

          I guess since I have my 2 1968 1400s and the 1964 silver streak that new 397 just did not measure up in the build quality and most definitely not the looks dept with the cheap looking powder coat or dipped coating which ever they are doing now and I would heave had to do about the same thing with the front sight as you did to see it good and the rear sight was no good either. It did at least already have the tapped holes to mount the Williams peep sight on it with but just did not shoot like I expected it to and was cheap and noisy pumping so it went back.

          I feel for you and GF1 living in your state with the FOID card crap as I have never had to deal with any of that and was out hunting by myself with my dads permission with my buddies growing up at 8 years old with a Remington 12 ga shotgun that I earned the money to buy myself cutting grass in the summer in Florida. So from 8 years old till now I have owned and shot whatever I choose to with no restriction whatsoever placed on me by the states I lived in and back in the late 60s when we were out duck hunting in Florida we would stop in our boats and talk to the marine patrol with our shotguns in our laps fully loaded and never had a word said to us.

          Here in Alabama right now its no big deal to go to the sheriffs dept and pay them 20 bucks for a background check and come back the next day to pick up your concealed carry permit to carry a handgun for protection. It is legal to open carry in this state so if I want to carry a gun either a pistol on my side or rifle in my arms walking down the street its all perfectly legal so the permit is to carry concealed only.

          I believe you will enjoy your new HW30S as I have shot ones at my FT club and they are sweet easy cocking accurate springers indeed. It will become your favorite gun and I believe your D36 is upset right now as well with good reason. LOL

          I hope that Crosman is reading and listening so we at least get a 1377/Disco or Pumprod in the near future as either one would not be much R&D to develop and build for a very good return on their investment since if they build it we will by it.


  9. K7ugshooter– The Gletcher 1944 has become my favorite gun. I removed the bayonet. It is so close to a real Mosin Nagant ( I have 4 of them) that I enjoy plinking with it more than my other pellet rifles. Of course, if there was any air rifle competition, I would be shooting my Beeman R7 or my my Diana 65 as much or more. Alas , all my club members have stopped shooting their .22 rifles (sporter rifle and silhouette ) . The are waiting for the return of inexpensive .22 long rifle ammo, hoarding what they have now. They are not willing to switch to air rifles. I cannot explain why PA claims that there are only 200 model 1944 rifles imported into the U.S.A. I have seen the same claim on other dealers web sites. Perhaps PA should send the unsold m 1891,s back to Gletcher and have them rebuilt as 1944,s. Perhaps BB will check this out for us. If you think that you would like to own a 1944, buy one now, just in case PA,s claim of only 200 is correct. Gletcher may not make any more, if they don’t sell well. The bayonet was an expensive mistake. Ed

    • Hi Ed,
      Thank you for your comments. The Gletcher’s home webpage does not list them as limited quantities and looks like they are still in production. They sure look like an interesting rifle, and the ability to shoot Avanti BBs with that accuracy at ten meters is tempting for me. I guess the only downside is the co2 . How many shots can you get , shooting at CO2 temps, over 70 F ? For the most part I just shoot alone. The guys I were shooting air are now going back to 22 lr powder burners. Since I am not competing with anyone , but my self the lower cost of the Avanti BBs sounds tempting.
      Thanks a million

    • Hi Ed,
      Been re-reading your posts, have done some thinking, and you know, back in the early 70’s I had a Mosin I think. It was s a real nice 7.62 bolt action carbine that had Russian printing on it , but there was one place it had Remington on it. Like a darn fool I traded it for a 250 CC Yamaha 2 cylinder 2 stroke scrambler motorcycle. The only good thing that come out of that, is I met a life long friend who bought the bike from me. I sure have enjoyed meeting you.

  10. I think my 853 is still shooting in the 390-425 range after a reseal. I have quite a number of parts on order to figure out what the exact problem is. 450-460 fps seems to be the norm from everything I’ve read. Even at 400 fps, the rifle is pretty accurate at 11 yards.

    • Paperweight,

      Thank you for commenting. Of course you and I know that we talked about this privately.

      I will shoot the rifle as it now performs. Maybe from what I’m hearing, I don’t need to get a new pump tube.


  11. B.B.
    You are definitely right! The complexity or reassembly has scared me away from considering getting a Daisy 853.
    So I’m still looking for an affordable 10M rifle…
    Glad you were not part of the design process of this rifle. It seems they ignored all the design and manufacturing tips that you have been espousing.


    • Yogi,

      I won’t criticize Daisy too much for this design. It saves them money, while making the rifle rebuildable at the same time. And there is a costly Lothar Walther barrel to be considered. I’d say they are doing their best to hold the line on costs.

      I just want everyone to know that this isn’t the air rifle to practice on.


  12. B.B.,

    I have an 853 that I rarely shoot because the trigger is, for a target rifle, pretty sad. I haven’t chronied it, but It certainly shoots hard enough to be effective in my 10 meter range. Everything else is really very good, especially accuracy. It’s light, relatively ergonomic, and ambidextrous to boot. But man, that trigger.

    After looking at your fourth photo above, I can see why trigger mods on these are not popular. Yikes!


  13. BB,
    All the reading I’ve done over the years has taught me so many things that I’ve lost count…lol
    Some of those things dont make sense to me, but they are proven.
    One of the things that doesnt make sense to me is “lubing” the hammer, because it would seem that this would increase the velocity. There have been many discussions about this in the various forums that I read, and each time the velocity is shown to decrease when any oil carrier is put on the sides of the hammer.
    Polishing the hammer does improve the velocity slightly.
    So I was wondering about the method that the previous owner of this 853 used to apply moly to the hammer. Any carrier used would slow down the velocity. If I remember right, burnishing moly powder by itself onto a polished hammer surface is ok.
    Have you or anybody read about this practice and the results?

    • DaveE,

      Welcome to the blog.

      Actually, I didn’t think about it when I wrote this report, but the lube on this hammer does little or nothing at all. Look at the picture that sows the inside of the receiver. Do you see any tubular guide for that hammer? No! The hammer is moving in free space.

      It’s like smearing grease on the outside of the wheels on your car to make them turn faster. Doesn’t do a thing.


      • Whoops…I was thinking Marauder, which has a tubular guide for the hammer to ride in. I think thats where I came across that info…was on a marauder forum.
        So yeah..lol…the hammer is moving in free air so it doesnt matter in this case.
        Food for thought tho, for anyone who has an airgun with the type of hammer with a guide, and who may have lubed said hammer.

        • DaveE,

          Thanks for the info.. I got a .25 M-rod a short while ago and have already have been into it. Bolt flip, 12# spring and O-ring de-bounce. I am pretty sure the hammer had moly already on it already,.. and of course,.. I cleaned it off and re-did it. I now will re-think that the next time that I have ‘er down.

          Of course, that is if I remember it. 😉

            • GF1,

              Not sure. I figure if it moves,… it gets lubed. I may have to re-think that a bit. 🙁 I do remember the bolt was covered well with moly. I re-did it ,…of course. Messy stuff that Moly.

              • Chris,USA
                Do not lube the hammer in your Mrod at all with anything as its not required and will hinder your tuning efforts.
                If you want to make it smoother polish inside the tube where the hammer slides so its a mirror finish and that makes a big difference in both cocking effort and consistency in shot spreads.


                • BD76,

                  The cocking effort is fine, even with 12# spring in. Without getting back into, I am pretty sure I lubed the tube and hammer with a light coat. What would you use to polish and what do you think the spread difference would be? A lot, or a little difference? Notes made and will do the next time I inside.

                  Thanks, Chris

                  • Chris,USA
                    If you just lightly coated the hammer it should not be a big problem for now so I would not tear back into it just for that to remove the oil or moly you applied.

                    I would polish the tube with some 400 sandpaper at first to start then work up to 1200 grit. You can make an arbor to hold the sandpaper with a piece of brake line for a car. Go buy a 8 or 12 inch length of 3/16″ auto brake line and cut the ends off of it so you can remove the flare nuts, Then use a hacksaw or dremal cutoff wheel to cut a slot about an inch long in one end of the tube only on one side, so its only one slot not two 180 degrees apart. Then take the sandpaper and cut it into inch wide strips the long length of the paper so you can slip the end of the paper in the slot in the tubing and wrap it around to make a sanding drum of the right diameter to be a slightly snug fit in the air tube. Then put the tubing in a drill and rotate it in the direction that its wrapped around the tubing and polish till smooth and work up to the finer paper to a mirror finish. Try to remove only as little metal as required to make it smooth and shiny.

                    It may only make a 5 or a little more difference in the range of the FPS spread between shots but it will make the hammer more consistent in the friction it has in it movement in the tube so is it worth the work to do so is up to you. I cannot say from experience as I have not done it myself but just read that it helps but by how much I cannot truly say first hand. So you decide if tis worth the effort to do it.


                  • Chris,USA
                    I forgot to mention that if I was going to polish the tube where the hammer slides in it I would not do so unless it is completely disassembled with everything out of the tube so all the metal particles from the polishing can be thoroughly cleaned and removed from the tube afterwards.

                    So it would be best if you want to do it to wait till you have the gun apart to do so as I do not feel the gains from polishing would be enough to warrant a full teardown just to polish the tube alone without other work needing performed.


                    • BD76,

                      Thank you for the insight. I will wait as you say. The back trigger screw had a stripped/bunged up end and would not pull down all the way into the cap, a lock washer fixed that. So that is 2 parts I want to replace. It had to happen at assy. time. It was not me for sure. It came out “wierd”, but still works.

                      Eventualy I will be asking for a parts list of things to order for tuning and modding. Not now,… just a heads up. At 32 shots now per fill and getting the results I am getting, it makes me wonder about doing anything to it at all,… beside what I have done so far. Kind of like your Hatsan.

                      Swapping the baffles for wieghts really helps. Something to think about for accurracy, not so much on quiet though.


                  • Chris,USA
                    Yea I personally don’t see that polishing the tube would have any great effect on the performance of the gun since you are getting a very decent shot count now and its accurate also. It would not hurt to do it when it was all apart just so its mirror smooth but to tear it down just to do that is not practical IMO.

                    The damaged trigger screw is odd and was likely just a poor machined screw that was not caught at manufacturing QC inspection time so it made it to the production line.

                    Yea I am going to have to test with the baffle and weight thing to see if I am happy with the noise versus barrel rise and may look at a weight to fit over the OD of the shroud to simulate a brake instead of inside the shroud so its still as quiet as possible. There is a adapter that is back on EBay that replaces the shroud end cap and allows for an external LDC to be threaded on the end to control the noise like my Hatsan has on it which work very well to keep it whisper quiet. here is the link for your reference. it is for 22 cal so it would need drilled out to work on the 25 but its an option to keep it quiet and also add some extra weight to the end of the barrel.



      • B.B..

        Just looked at that picture. Would not the housing itself act as a “tube” guide? Then there is what I assume is the sear (latch to hammer contact area). It appears slotted, which is a sort of guide as well. Too me, it seems pretty well “guided”. Then again, I have never been inside of one either.


      • Gunfun1,

        2×4 testing at 50 yds.,…… 25.39’s penetrated .451″ to (back of pellet). 33.95’s to .587″,.. both JSB’s. The 31.02 HN’s went .616″. Lighter pellet, but the most penetration. Harder lead and more pointed made the difference.

        I can not get the 31.02’s to group good. While doing the 2×4’s, I put 5 shots on paper and got 1 1/2″.

        • Chris USA
          Ok that’s cool you got the 50 yard test done.

          Now look at the entrance hole diameter. Then look forward n the hole to see how big the hole is at the pellet depth.

          Bet the harder 31.02 Baracuda has a hole that’s pretty true all the way to the pellet.

          And I bet the hole is small where it hits the board but at the back of the pellet hits big.

          Let me know if that’s true? Then you need to do the 100 yard 2×4 penetration test so we can compare your results.

          • GF1,

            That is true. The JSB’s slid off to the side a bit whereas the HN’s are more straight in. I will do the JSB’s at 100, but not the HN’s as they are gettin 1 1/2″~2″ at 50 yds.. At 100 yards, it would be lucky to hit.

            Now,…. onto the (important stuff)……

            I am proud to announce the:

            ***** First Annual,…. ( “Gunfun1” -VS- “Chris USA” 100 Yard Challenge ) ***** !!!!!!!

            No rules,… except one,…. best 10 shot group wins the contest. Any pellet, any hold, any-thing.

            To get the “ball rolling”,…. I hereby submit my first groups.

            33.95 JSB’s…. 2 13/16″
            25.39 JSB’s…. 3 1/4″ and 2 7/8″

            So the “bar” has been set at 2 13/16″

            Contest ends at Midnight on Sunday evening.

            Good luck Sir! 🙂

            • Chris USA
              Now that ain’t going to work. We both have to start tomorrow. Otherwise can I use a group I shot a year ago?

              And I think we should keep to a 5 shot group like that competion Buldawg mentioned.

              Also the reason I mention a group from a year ago is when I had a 100 yard range that was shielded from the wind like your place. My shooting area is wide open with some kind of wind blowing. So no way for me to get good groups. Maybe but doubt they will be the best with wind.

              But ok if we both start tomorrow till Sunday and best 5 shot group I’ll do it.

              • GF1,

                Mmmmm?,….. you have brought up a few good points. My tomorrow is blown with Mom and Dad visit and shopping. So,… while we are bargaining,.. let me trade tomorrow for today. Ok?

                Weather is supposed to hit by 4 PM and I usually do not get home until 3 ish. But, I get to shoot if I can. Ok?

                Limited to 5 shots hey? I thought the standard was 10? That does not seem fair,… to you,… I mean. 😉 Are you sure you do not want to do 10?

                And since you mentioned past groups,… the 33.95’s did 2 5/16″ for 10 shots and 7 of those went into 1 5/16″. But, I was not going to bring that up. That was the other day. Today, I was actually quite “bummed”. I had hoped for better given the former results.

                Plus,… if I know you,…. you will be doing 40 groups to my 4 per day. Really, that is all I am going to give it. 4 Sat., which ain’t looking good at all, and 4 Sunday. If you want to do 100 groups, go for it. No rules, remember?

                What you say?,…. wait,… is that a “Deer in the headlights” look you are giving me? 😉

                • Chris USA
                  No bright eyes here.

                  I just know the difference wind makes from shooting at my old house verses this house. And I know my gun. I already pretty well know what the results will be. Put it this way. I can hit a 2″ diameter corn cob that’s around 5″ long every shot at a 100 yards.

                  Open area shooting with wind is a whole lot different shooting than with a sheilded shooting area. That’s why I mentioned for you to take your Mrod to a shooting range one day and shoot at a 100 yards.

                  I’m willing to make a bet you won’t even be on the paper when you start shooting. And I think you will be surprised at your group’s when you shoot there. Just say’n. I know what different conditions do.

                  And no I won’t shoot group after group this weekend trying for the best group. I’ll shoot like always do. It will be a 5 shot group. Then shoot the other guns then come back to it and shoot 5 more shots. I will do that for one fill of the gun Saturday and for one fill on Sunday and take my best group shot of 5 shots. I’ll note my group with the flyer included then what the sub group is.


                  • GF1,

                    Deal? Mmmmm?,….. I am starting to feel sorry for you, with all that wind and stuff. 😉

                    After much deep thought and reflection,…. what do you say that I do 10 and you do 5 per group? Historically speaking, my first 5 of 10 are the best,.. and it goes South from there, generally, but not always.

                    You are far more advanced in shooting than I,… but you have wind and are out in the open.

                    Me, far less advanced, but,…. seem to have the “ultimate” 100 yard range.

                    My best group today counts? Yea? Just talked to Dad,.. tomorrow is shot unless things get done quicker than I think.


                    • Chris USA
                      Well I just checked the weather report for the weekend.

                      Looks like tomorrow will be my pick day. Winds only suppose to be 8 mph out of the North West. Which is my good direction. Plus it’s suppose to be raining off and on. And you know how I am with shooting in the rain.

                      Sunday is suppose to be nice and sunshine but a 12-14 mph wind out of the East. That’s my worst direction for the wind to come out of. It’s a direct crosswind from the left to the right. And nothing blocking the wind. So Sunday is out for anything good.

                      So tomorrow will be it for me.

                      Oh and when you do your next day of shooting at a 100 yards for our little competition please do the 2nd part of the 2×4 penatration test.

                      Hmm ain’t done any competion shooting in some time. Said I probably never would. Said I liked shooting for fun and enjoyment.

                      But I guess I have no choice but to get serious tomorrow. Kind of bringing back my motocross, drag racing and R/C plane racing days. Yep going to get down to biusness tomorrow. 😉

        • Chris USA
          I skipped saying something.

          The next to last paragraph I meant to say I was now talking about the softer JSB pellets.

          I wanted you to see how the hole shape is different between the harder pellet and the softer pellets.

          • GF1,

            Outa’ room above so bumping it down a notch. I feel kind of bad now. Did not mean to get you backed into a corner, so to speak. I would never do that. Yea, I was having some fun and talking some “smack”, all in good fun though. You are always goading me to try new things, try odd stuff and I am always trying to even come somewhere close to your results. That is good and I have learned a lot,… a whole lot. I just thought a little contest would be fun.

            But,… but,…. in all of this “fun” and back and forth,…. you have driven home a very good point that I think should not be lost on any of us.

            ***The conditions under which one shoots, the results that can be expected, or not, and how skill level comes more, or less, into play depending on those conditions.***

            I am a very average shooter. I have no trouble in saying that. My results with a TX and LGU at 25 and 30 yards can attest to this. But, when I started pushing my distant comfort zone into the 50 and 70 and 100 yard ranges,…. WOW!,…. now suddenly I am getting results that rival even what some of the best shooters get. (I have you to thank for that)

            But,… again,…. those great groups at insane yardages were not me at all. I was shooting in little to no wind. Ever. From the very start. (Lesson learned). Ok, maybe me,… a “little” 😉

            What is cool, very cool, is that an average shooter like me can demonstrate what something will do under pretty well near perfect conditions,… with less than perfect skills.

            Point being,… for all of us,…. is the next time you read that “so and so” got .050″ groups at X yards,…… and HEY,… I got the same gun,…. WHY can’t I do that?????

            Ask yourself what conditions they were shooting in and,.. what conditions you are shooting in.

            Finally,… don’t beat yourself up too hard,… and maybe more important,… don’t get too full of yourself either. 😉

            Chris ( Da’ most humbled Grazz Hoppa )

            • Chris USA
              And you know I’m just mess’n around with ya too.

              And shooting conditions is a big thing. I’m going to tell the truth right now. And it may even sound a bit funny. When I moved out to this new house and got my guns out for the first time to shoot I was highly disappointed well more confused at first. I couldn’t get my known good grouping guns to get the same results I was at the old house.

              The wind was always blowing here. At first I was kind of regretting moving here in my big wide open space. I remember at the other house I could seriously drop a feather any where in the yard about 98% of the time and the feather would just slowly float straight down. I’m thinking to myself man I didn’t know how good I had it at the other house.

              But after I got shooting out here at the new house and shooting in a 5-8 mph wind pretty much all the time. And it always seems to come from a different direction from day to day.I found myself liking this new to me windy shooting. Well I guess I shot in the wind as a kid but really never paid it no attension. Well a little I guess I did.

              So now after being out here at this house a little over a year I found what direction wind was my best for shooting. The other house was all good. Now it’s only one good direction.

              But at least it taught me about what wind does to the hold that was needed for a shot. And just because wind comes from the left or right don’t think that’s the only thing that changes when the pellet hits. Elevation changes to depending on the wind.

              I shot a group out here one time with my 1720T that had a RAI adapter and AR butt stock. And that had the Shroud slid forward and weighted. The gun would do easily a 10 or more shot group in a 1/2″ at 50 yards at the other house. Just for the heck of it I shot a 20 shot group here at this house in a 12 mph crosswind at a 1/8″ dot on my paper. Well what happened was interesting. My group was about 2-1/2″ wide and shaped like a tear drop. It was pointy by the dot then got bigger and round and was to the left and down. So it looked like a tear drop setting at a 45°. So yes wind will affect your group’s when you shoot.

              That’s how I came about using heavier pellets in all my guns out here. I did use heavy pellets in some guns at the other house. But out here it’s no choice. It has to be heavy pellets for me to get any kind of good results.

              So to sum it up. When I first moved out here I was kind of regretting that I did. But now a little over a year later I’m glad I moved out here. It was one more step in learning more about air gunning that came at the right time.

              But anyway back to biusness. As you see I’m up early and done got my scope lens all wiped and clean with my scope lens cloth. Done put a few drops of the RWS silicone oil in the barrel last weekend. So barrel is fresh. Just did a 5 shot group at 50 yards to verify the barrel. Yep it’s on the money a a jagged one hole group. So out to a hundred next.

              Oh and it is calm and it is drizzling. You know me and shooting in the rain. I think I’m going to get some good 100 yard shots this morning. And it’s got to be today. They now say 12-16 mph winds out of the East tomorrow. Which is dead crosswind to my shooting area.

              Here I go!

  14. I don’t post much, if at all now as work has me very busy and the FT season is in full swing. I do however try to read every blog post, often many in one sitting. I can’t wait to meet the man who’s blog introduced me to more than backyard plinking. I will be at the PA Cup this fall and even if it’s for a moment introduce myself.

  15. Well I did it…

    I have had a couple incredibly crazy work weeks which have yielded a couple of decent sized pay checks. I have decided to reward myself with my number 1 short listed item. That HW30S I have been lusting over is finally coming my way. I really enjoy my Diana’s but the poi always changes when I change shooting position. My pumpers are nice but I absolutely hate that my Crosman looks similar to an actual “scary black gun” All the folks passing by just stare dissaprovingly. Which I think is funny because I should be infinitely more embarrassed as a full grown man playing with “bb guns” wearing a straw hat and gym shorts.

    Not much for the black guns. Its not really the gun itself. It is usually the crowd, especially in my age group. Maybe if it was chambered for 6.5 grendal…

    Anyway I got some air venturi silhouette targets and actual 10meter targets. I’m gna practice different positions and see what is comfortable and all that good jazz. But I am going to flat out SHOOT. Pellet after pellet downrange. Emptying tins left and right. I am going to cut some serious eye teeth here. Hopefully…

    I thought long and hard between this and the disco. But I know I would rather have the mrod or t200 in the long run. Thats the next step. A long way down the road. Cant wait for the 9th! 🙂

    P.S. my 36 was grumbling in the gun case earlier and got jealous when it caught wind on the “new baby” on the way. So I treated the ol gal to an HN sample pack with the barracudas I have been dying to try. (Copper plated and regular) it also has others I wouldn’t have bought seperately. Did I mention I’m ready for June 9th?

    • PH
      I’m happy for ya. That’s cool.

      And I know what you mean about the waiting. I check my tracking number like 3 times a day and everyday till the package arrives.

      And I think you made a good choice. I’m thinking the Disco or Mrod will come in time. But for some reason I’m getting one of my visions again and it looks like a Mrod will be in your future. 😉

      But seriously. Glad you got the HW30.

      • GF1

        Yeah I am super impatient right now! I can’t wait to see what all the fuss is about. I have found my T05 and savage accutrigger to be the best I have ever experienced. I can’t wait to get the rekord on my fingertip.

        Yeah there is definitely some truth to your vision. 😉

        • PH
          I’m terrible when I order something.

          I wish Pyramyd AIR was right around the corner from my and it was a store I could go in get what I needed eight at that moment.

          But you know what wait a minute. That would be a bad thing. A real bad thing. I’m already air gun broke all the time now. I’d really be in trouble if I could go there everyday. 😉

          • GF1

            Yeah I hear ya! I feel the My wife doesn’t say much. She doesn’t pay close enough attention from one gun to the next but she does notice the gun cabinet is over flowing! 😉

            • PH
              And when they deliver that new gun you say oh that’s the one I had to send back for repair awhile back. Don’t you remember!

              And she knows good well that I work on all my own stuff. 🙂

                • Chris USA
                  A guys got to do what a guys got to do.

                  But on the serious side. My wife and kids do pretty much what they want if getting something.

                  She works a good job as well as I do all week long.

                  If we’re all happy I’m happy. But believe me way less stress if the wife and kids are happy.

                  I’m still shooting so I’m happy. And trust me it helps getting them involved in shooting.

              • GF1 and Chris USA

                I laughed so hard at that! Yeah I can always use that excuse about PA. To her credit though she hasn’t said a word about the p17 and that is the only air pistol I have. And I have been shooting it in the house! I guess she realizes I’m too stubborn… lol

                Although I think buying her a new car has bought me some breathing room… for now atleast. I’m probably going to bust myself out because I want her to try the new HW30S that I can’t shut up about. Jk 🙂

                • PH
                  Oh you just don’t know.

                  I really hate when a new gun comes out.

                  Makes me get all gittery inside.

                  Just only wish I could try them all out. Don’t care if they are good or bad. I just want to try them.

        • Punchin Holes,

          While you are entertaining your “visions”, give some real thought to a Shoebox. That is unless you like a whole lot of exercise just to get a few dozen shots.

          I know it will be awhile for you, but when you get there, think hard. Hit me up when you do. Just been there.

    • Punchin Holes,

      Congratulations!!! 😉 And nice quality at that. Always the best route. Less regrets that way.

      I can relate to about everyone of your comments at some level. I 100% guarantee you I would (not) have what I have today if it had not been for some serious O.T. for about 5 years straight. The O.T. portion was often more than the regular portion. Yea, I did some other smart things with the extra like pay down house, max. the no longer offered 401. There was even some extra left over, which is a good thing to keep too. Despite all of that, there it sat for like 3-4 years. No extra’s, no treats, nothing. Same ol’, same ol’.

      I have always loved shooting, but had never done that much, not serious anyways. Then I found this place after deciding I deserved a “treat” of some sorts. ‘Bout time huh? Well, the rest is history. Work all you can while you are younger. When you get older, let’s just say that it becomes decidedly less appealing. And, hopefully things will all work out in the end.

      You will get that TX, Discovery or M-rod one day. Yes, the PCP’s can run up the bill in a big hurry. The Discovery would run counter to that though. That is a good starter PCP. The M-rod packs quite a bit more “punch”, and is really not all that quiet. So where you can shoot comes into play. You do not want a maxed out muscle car sitting in the garage and nowhere to drive it.

      I am with you on the “scary black guns”. I am a big fan of nice wood stocks. But, a “scary black gun” is what I ended up with. Being quite tall and long armed, I needed that extra LOP (length of pull) as well as some other fit issues. The M-rod with R.A.I. kit fit that bill,… and me,…. very nicely. Plus, I have to admit,… it has the “cool” factor down in spades. It was truly the only thing out there that would fit me. Plus, you can modify and tinker with them to no end, if that is your thing.

      I liked your “grumbling” comment! 🙂 The 2 springers are making quite the ruckus with the latest addition to the family. If I over-heard them correctly,… a full out mutiny is brewing and there is some talk of throwing 5″ groups at 25 yards if I do not get my priorities in order. 😉

      Again, congratulations and keep us posted,…… Chris

      • Chris USA
        I moved down here alittle more room.

        What did you say your best was? 1-5/16″.
        Well you ready for the results. Well I’m not going to tell ya. Going to wait till midnight Sunday night when the contest ends. 🙂

      • Chris USA
        Ok just mess’n with ya. 🙂
        I actually had about the best conditions that I can ask for out here today. About a 5 mph wind from 60 yards out and from behind me on one 10 shot group. And about a 4 mph crosswind from the right to the left out past 60 yards on the second group. And yes I was getting good groups so I went ahead and did 10 shot groups.

        You ready? First group was 1-5/16″ tall by 13/16″ wide. That was with the wind from behind and shooting from 3500 psi down to 3000 psi.

        The next 10 shot group was with the wind from right to left at 4 mph. And I shot from 3000 psi down to 2500 psi. That group was a 13/16″ round group with one flyer that went high and made it the same as my first group. It was 1-5/16″.

        I was shooting at a white piece of paper with a red filled in circle in the middle of the paper. The circle was about a 1-3/4″ diameter. And I should say this. At 6 magnification with the scope power and exactly a 3 mildot hold over. And I should mention that red circle I made on the white paper looks a little bigger than the size of a mildot in my scope. So all I had to do is perfectly lay the mildot over the red circle and I was hitting.

        I got the pictures of the groups and I’ll email them to you with info written on them so that you know which one was the first and second group.

        Oh and now you know why I can hit a corn cob at a 100 yards every shot. 😉

        And did I mention it was a fine drizzle the whole time I was shooting. Told you rain works for me. 🙂

        • GF1,

          Sooooo,…. 1 5/16 ” and 10 shots at that, huh? Not bad. I have my work cut out for me tomorrow. I may have to break out the scales and calipers to “hedge my edge”. 😉

          Today was drizzle all day with it getting much worse around 4. I will hit it hard tomorrow. The tree’s will be dripping for awhile with all the rain we are supposed to get tonight.

          While no shooting today, today was “critter” day for me. First up, on the way to Mom and Dad’s, I caught something out of my left eye. It was one of those real fuzzy, real fast, real erratic spiders 6″ from my left shoulder. You know how I just love spiders,…. NOT! I kept my composure and luckily he was not in hyper mode. Stopped the car and squish. Next, it was mulch day at the parents. About the 10th bag in, I ran across a 2′ Garter Snake, no problem. He just slithered off into the weeds. On the way home, I popped over a hill and there was a real young Mama Deer with her 2 spotted, very little Fawns. The one Fawn ran along and in front of the car for about 100 yards, before dashing off into a wood line. I was doing about 5 mph.

          Got to go,…. got to find the scale and the calipers and get to sorting some pellets. 😉

          • Chris USA
            Well sounds like you had a exciting day.

            And yep that was straight out of the tin. I was going to sort but I figured I would give it a go straight from the tin first and see what happened today.

            And I know also from living out here for a while now that it’s calm in the early morning till around 9:00 am then the wind picks up. Then some times it starts dying down about a hour before it gets dark. So I knew I had to get out early or it would of been a lost cause.

            But I’ll email you the 2 pictures with the first and second 10 shot group so you can see soon as I get done replying here.

            Oh and here is something else. If I was shooting from a bag rest these groups would not of happened. The scope bi-pod is super stable and always it allows me to not worry about the gun canting from one side to the other like a bag does. It gives me a very precise hold that’s easy to repeat.

            And one more thing you should try shooting at 50 yards and get that pellet cloverleafing in one whole at least before you keep wasting pellets out at a 100 yards. Are you making ragged one hole groups at 50 yards? If you start getting that then a 100 will be easier. Just say’n. 🙂

            And didn’t you think I would rub it in a little. This might be my last chance I’ll ever beat da grazz hoppa you know. 😉

            • GF1,

              🙂 We shall see about all of “that”. I do need to do the 50 more. The 100 has me “hooked” real hard though! I need one of those “Trained Monkeys” that we were talking about awhile back. That is a lot of “hoofing it” out to the 100, over and over. Some “fine tuning” at the 100 is in order.

              The pistol grip rest, with the stiff foam under, works real good!!! Set it up with the cross hairs (just under) the bull, put a little down pressure on the grip,… and all is good and solid. You need a bench though. Too much foam is not good. I cut some 1/8″ hard rubber sheet to fine tune the height. Works like a charm. Yup on the pod. I am 100% spoiled on that set up.

              I should have some results posted by noon ~ 2 tomorrow.

              • Chris USA
                Ok and if you do sort your pellets make sure you check over all length of the pellets too. In other words how long the pellets are. They will vary in legnth more so than others with different brand pellets. Just say’n if your going all out.

                And did email you the pictures of the groups Al’s just now sent you a picture of the tape measure I used to get a true 100 yard range marked off.

                It was my dad’s old teel type 100 foot surveying tape. It’s old and tuff. Works like it’s brand new still.

                Anyway let me know when you get the pictures.

                  • GF1,

                    Got the pic of the tape, no groups. No need to re-do. Your word is Gold. I can only do phone pics anyways. “Hopefully” I will have something to send you! 🙁 Urrrppp! 10 @ 1 5/I6″ is the bar. I think my Dad has a very similar tape.

                    I may weigh, and I may not. We will see. You know how that goes, length, head, weight and end up with 20+ piles of pellets,… 2 hours later. 🙁

                    • Chris USA
                      I’m going to send you another email when I get through here.

                      I was afraid of that. Your not seeing the first atracents when I add a additional one.

                      I’m going to send one with all 3 together.

                      But look at the pictures with the groups. There’s some additional things I want to point out about how the wind chang d the group POI. How it shifted from top to left from the wind.

                      Seriously make sure you look at the pictures.

              • Chris USA
                Oh and not quite a monkey.

                But maybe time for a sporting scope. 🙂

                But really they are nice. If you go to a sporting goods store or such you should take a look through a couple different ones. Don’t know if there will be any good ones there. So don’t look through the first one and think they all could be the same.

                Just like you done on the other stuff research them. But mostly look through them if you can.

                • GF1,

                  Got the pics. Yup,…. I have my work cut out for me! Very, VERY nice. Even with the wind.

                  B.B.,…. you got to give your M-rod another look. Just sayin’. Mine is still pretty much all stock with anything that matters. As I am sure you know, the 12# will not get you anything but a higher fill and the O-rings will not get you anything but maybe some more shots per fill. Really, still stock.

                • GF1,

                  Another thought,… you got your M-rod pretty hopped up and mine is still pretty stock. Yours is doing about 150 fps more than mine with the same pellet. Yet, we are getting near the same groups.

                  That says a lot about the M-rod. Tuned “hot” or “mild”,…. it’s a shooter! 🙂

                  • Chris USA
                    Not true.

                    Mine is hopped up. And that is making the difference out at farther distances.

                    You need to look at the 2nd group closer.

                    If I would of stopped shooting on my 7th shot I would of had a round 13/16″ group.

                    The 8th shot went high and opened the group to 1-5/16″. The 9th and 10th shot went into that 13/16″ group.

                    So your best main group was 1-5/16″ but the group was opened up bigger because of a flyer. I don’t remember right now how much bigger you said it was. How big was your main group with the flyer included on your best group?

                    So will count your best group as 1-5/16″.without the flyer. And well count my best group as 13/16″ with out the flyer.

                    How about that! 🙂

                    • GF1,

                      How about (not) that? The 1 5/16 were all grouped together, but that was 7 of 10. The other 3, at 2 5/16 overall, were a separate group. You did 10, therefore,… I shall do 10,…. as planned.

                      Unless I went into a “time warp”,…. I do not believe that is Sunday PM yet. 😉

                  • Chris USA
                    Ok Sunday night at midnight.

                    I see the da gazz hoppa twich’n right now.

                    You ain’t going to shoot no kind of good if you got winning on your mind.

                    If you know your stuff and how it shoots you ain’t going to have no problem with showing this old grazz hoppa how it shoots.

                    Remember I was a young gazz hoppa once upon a time too. 🙂

                    • GF1,

                      Twich’n huh? Me thinks not. The only thing twich’n,… or should I say “itch’n”, is my trigger finger. 😉

                      As for “frame of mind”,….. I am thinking along the lines of “Smoke that Sucka”, or smash, thump, whoop, blown out the water, destroy, etc., etc., etc…… 🙂

                      Confident enough for ya?

                      Chris ( I think you are liking this little “return” to competition,… and your trash talking skills ain’t half bad as well) 😉

                    • GF1,

                      Well, the tank is topped. I sorted some 33.95’s and came up with 2 batches of 10. I will do 4 groups of 10, the first 2 with random pellets and the last 2 with the sorted ones. It will be cool to see if there is any (significant) difference between 1+2 and the 3+4.

                      I sorted for weight, head and length. The weight varied the most. The one batch is slightly more uniform than the other, but both are close. I will shoot the most uniform one last. I will use the tray for all 4 groups. I would use the mags for all, but that would make a tray vs mag test less of a test, since I am also using sorted and unsorted. It will be more of a test of sorted and unsorted that way. Plus, using the tray, I can better keep the 10 count accurate as opposed to loading up 2 mags of 8.

                      Time to make up some targets. The weather looks better over your way than mine looks. It is absolutely dripping wet right now here. It will be 10-12 before I make it out. Breeze is supposed to 5-15 from the S.W. which is perfect as that is the part of the open area that is most buffered. Not like it’s much of an issue anyways.

                • Fido3030,

                  That is a great idea! 🙂 As long as they are a self contained system and they would not have to go through a WIFI or computer or phone and be wireless. I can see the pellet holes at 10mag. on white paper, but a real nice up close look would be really cool.

                  Just don’t shoot it,… ehh? 😉

                  • Chris USA
                    I moved down here.

                    And you know what when I use to do all my car, R/C plane and motocross racing I never talked trash. I was actually helping out the people I was competing against in some way or another. It ain’t no fun if you ain’t got nobody good to compete against you know.

                    And that is a good idea to see what the sorted and in sorted pellets do.
                    And the single shot tray too. I’m thinking your still going to get better results with it. I don’t think you gave it enough of a chance at first.

                    And one more thing before I forget again like I did yesterday. About the pictures of the groups I sent you.

                    Did you see how the first group I shot with the wind comming from directly behind me. It was more of a vertical group.

                    Then the next shot with the slight crosswind moved the group to the left and down compared to the first group.

                    I just wanted to point out how the wind changed POI. Also I should say also did you see how the first group was high but centered on the target with the wind coming from behind.

                    But even with the wind shifting the POI I still was touching my 1-3/4″ circle. That would of easily been good enough for a head shot on a raccoon or ground hog. Not that I would take a shot out that far even though my Mrod is probably making enough power to take them effectively.

                    But that’s why I said going into this competition that I pretty well already knew what the results from me and the Mrod would be. I know you remember me saying many times you got to know your equipment and how it performs.

      • Chris USA

        I’m glad u thought so. I thought it was pretty good. 🙂

        Yeah you gotta do what u gotta do. I don’t necessarily love working but I know that’s how u make the money to live the way you want. I’m on call this weekend and I’m waiting for my dispatch to come in right now as we speak. I don’t care for the sporadic after hours but… yeah I’m saving for a house but all work and no play make Jack a dull boy… besides if I don’t buy it now I may miss my chance for a long time. I bought a motorcycle several years ago then had to sell it and haven’t had one since. But I was glad I bought it and made the memories I did.

        Not to mention my youngest brother rubbing his $10000 Harley in my face. He lives at my moms and makes good money but he is a bonehead… lol so I felt this was a relatively safe move. 🙂

        • Punchin Holes,

          Had a 2000 Wide Glide for 5 years, loved it and made some good memories. Sold it to get a Liberty as I moved to the country and needed the 4WD. So yea, do what ya got to do. Got an ’11 Rav4 now and love it.

          Sincerely,… best of luck on getting all you want.


          • Chris USA

            Thanks on that. It is always a delicate balance between want and need. My 15 year old Ford 4×4 gets everything done I need it to do.

            Yeah I’ve been thinking about the shoe box in the back of my mind. I am certainly not going to pump all that much. If I we’re a hunter it would be one thing but how many pumps would it take to shoot 100 pellets? A few hundred on some guns I suppose.

            I do have access to dry nitrogen in tanks but I’ll have to do some more research on filling and how much I could get out of a given tank. The hook up requirements and fill pressure. I only use about 300lbs of pressure at a time usually and my regulator gauges are broken. I just use my manifold gauges for inlet pressure but have no clue what they come full at. But there is dive shop about 13 min from home so I’ll have to check that out sometime.

            • Punchin Holes,

              You lost me on the alt. gas stuff. What do you use that for? On cars, I drove a 74 Ford E-100 van for 18 years, “3 on the tree”. No power,… anything. I can relate to “making do”.

              The Shoebox,… it is plug it in, hook it up and forget it. It shuts off at 4500 and the fan still runs till I shut it off. For me, I use a small tank. I watch TV and drink coffee while it does all the work. It is quite enough that I do not even turn up the TV. It sits 8′ from the TV. Come shoot time,… fill from tank and get about 250 shots before a re-charge of the tank. Takes about 20-30 minutes depending on how much I pull the tank down.

              Mmmm?,…. I see you pondering all that. Let me know when you “go there”.

              • Chris USA

                I use the nitrogen for certain things when I’m doing hvac work. I even use it to blast out condensate drains if I have to in a pinch. 😉 but I can get those tanks super easy and can rotate them easily when I go to the wholesale house.

                Yep I’ve had the ol noodle cranking on that one. I think field target is really cool and I feel like a pcp is probably my best bet if I we’re ever to try it. BD76 sent me a link to check out and I’m very interested.

                • PH,

                  Yea, I think the PCP would be the only way to go. Especially if you are competing against other PCP’s. Buldawg will get you up to speed. I think some have springer classes. If so, and no PCP’s were allowed, then a springer would be fine.

                  Cool on the tanks. Just make sure they are 4500 rated. Plus think about cross contamination from a tank that held something other than just air. Then there is all sorts of valves and threads. Again, Buldawg I think can set you straight on all of that if you want to use some other type of tank. That would be about a 500$ savings if you could get something rigged up and SAFE.

                  And as you probably figured out, if you got a gun that max. fill is 2000, then you will get a lot more fills from a 4500 tank. And you could get by with a tank rated at 3000. But if you want to fill to 3000-3500, that 3000 tank will not do you any good.

                  • Chris USA
                    Those nitrogen tanks actually can be had all the way up to 6,000 psi. We have them at work to fill the bladders in the accumulators on our hydraulic machinery. It’s used to give a sudden surge in pressure when all the cutting spindles fire at the same time.

                    You could fill alot of air guns from a 6,000 psi nitrogen filled tank. Plus you don’t need as high of a fill pressure with nitrogen verse HPA.

    • Ah, you’ve ordered my dream gun, the HW30S. Congratulations and please do give detailed reports. Maybe the vicarious satisfaction will be enough for me. I agree with your plan about shooting the gun for all you’re worth. That is how I built my long-range gun plan. I spent several years building my collection based on the idea that concentrated buying would reduce my expenses and increase my enjoyment in the long-run. That rationalized a number of extra purchases. But I have pretty much everything I want now. I was just checking my stockpiles of handloads, surplus and other kinds of ammo. Now I should be looking forward to years of uninterrupted shooting.


      • Matt61

        Definitely will keep everyone posted. I know how much I enjoy hearing about other peoples AGs and the fun they’re having.

        I have wanted this gun since my first pyramid air catalog came (volume 4). Even through loving my 392 I always wanted an HW30S.

        I am excited that I have built my pellet stock up and have 5 kinds I want to test immediately. I love being stocked on ammo as well. I have a modest stock of 22lr and .30-30 the only calibers I have left. I regret selling my 30-06 before getting a reloading press because of the versatility of that cartridge. But…

        I’m going to shoot till my right index finger and thumb look like the tin man!

        Speaking of vicarious living how is your . 223 savage like it’s new playground? If I buy a new centerfire it is likely to be that caliber and probably a savage as they are my favorite for a new rifle at this point in time.

  16. Harvey– I have 3 magazines for the Gletcher 1944. The one that chronographs @ 430 fps gets 100-112 shots. The 540 fps mag gets 80 good shots. the 490 fps gets 96 shots. These figures are approximate. At one time I was weighing Crosman co2 cylinders and found a few that had 11 oz of co2, and some had as much as 13 ounces. I think that I am averaging 1.4cents per shot ( co2 plus bb). It is often easy to see the bb,s in flight at my outdoor 10 M plinking range. In bright light they look like tracers. I use Kentucky elevation for the last few shots. The 200 figure is probably how many guns are being sent to the dealers. Last year, pictures of the RWS 460 in a Mauser 98 style stock showed up. From the little info on the Internet, it appears that they are being sold in Europe, but have not been imported to the USA. Again, this is a mystery that BB might be able to solve. Ed

  17. Thank you for the very useful information Ed Unfortunately I am on kind of a limited budget so have to shop accordingly. Makes me wonder about the sawed off version, and still be able to enjoy the wonderful bolt action. Of course would lose some accuracy and bb speed with the shorter barrel. As a 79 year old newbie, just did my first mod today. I have a Umarex Buck Mark URX Love that little pistol except for the very hard trigger pull. Mine measured over 10 lbs . A internet search took me to You Tube Video on how use a Dremel tool and fine stone to polish up the sear. Trigger pull is now around 4,5 lbs and much more pleasant to shoot.
    Thanks Ed

  18. Harvey- I am 79 1/2 years old. I had to sell the last of my fountain pen collection to get the Gletcher 44. I used to enjoy using my pens when I was teaching. Since I retired I have had little use for them so I did not mind selling them. I like to collect things that I can use, not just look at them. Is there any chance that you live near me? I live in New York, Orange county. Near the city of Middletown. If we can get together, you could shoot my Gletcher 44. Ed

    • Hi Ed,
      Nice hearing from you again I am in Idaho, about 60 miles nw of Boise and 2 miles east of Ontario, OR. I am a retired power company substation worker., Spent 42 years with the company as a active employee and another 7 years as a contract worker for the company., I have been blessed with a understanding wife who , for the most part, within reason lets me have the toys, if I can save for them. For years, primary hobby has been ham radio. I still enjoy making morse code “cw” contacts but do have some modern computer controlled radios. Also after years of riding motorcycles, now have a vintage Miata sports car. So, this spoiled old guy is not going to complain much. After 2 years in this hobby, have a nice collection of air pistols. Several of Tom’s picks. With my poor eyesight and age , will never be a good shot, but really enjoy the physics of the guns, and just handling them. That cool bolt action on the 1891 really intrigues me. Thank you

  19. I can only admire the intelligence, skill, and persistence that allows people to go into the insides of a gun and come out successful. Or you can go my route and collect guns that never fail. 🙂 But I must admit that behind them are some very capable people like Derrick for my airguns. So, I’ve just outsourced the maintenance.

    Here is a combined movie/historical question that someone might be able to answer. I just finished watching the 1951 film Distant Drums with Gary Cooper and the ravishing Mari Aldon. I got it because of a vague memory of the final knife combat underwater, but the whole thing is quite entertaining. It makes it look fun to go fighting through the Everglades. And while the movie would not pass today’s standards of diversity the treatment of Indians and race prejudice is surprisingly sensitive.

    Anyway, the question has to do with guns. My understanding is that the three wars with the Seminole Indians preceded the Civil War. Sure enough, the Indians are carrying rifles with an external hammer like a flintlock or a percussion mechanism. However, they never reload from the muzzle. The U.S. soldiers carry shorter carbine length rifles that they seem to be reloading from the breech. Gary Cooper carries a shiny pistol that looks to be an 1873 single action revolver, which is definitely anachronistic. But can anyone identify the guns carried by the Indians and the American soldiers?

    On a related note, I was overjoyed to see that another forest action film in the form of a new Tarzan movie is coming out in July!


    • Matt61
      All I’m going to say is where you been?

      Sometimes your here. Sometimes not.

      I’m guessing you got obligations like the rest of us. But I wonder sometimes why you don’t comment. And no kind of way am I try’n to pick at you. Just miss see’n your coments ya know. You always are bringing new things to the table to change it up a bit.

    • Matt61,

      I will second what the GF1 said,… I always look forward to your post. They are so full of cool stuff and new ways to look at things. Plus, I think the firearm shooters here like your post as well. I know I like your adventures and striving for perfection in “alternative” weaponry. Not too many people do that. That gives us all insight as to what else is out there.


    • Soldiers at that time could have been using Halls breech-loading rifles, which were flint locks. They also could have been using Hall’s breech-loading carbines, which were the first percission military guns. A great concept to be sure but too much gas leakage with a hinged breech block

      • Soldiers at that time could have been using Halls breech-loading rifles, which were flint locks. They also could have been using Hall’s breech-loading carbines, which were the first percission military guns. A great concept to be sure but too much gas leakage with a hinged breech block and loose powder and ball

  20. Harvey– I have a similar wife.———Matt61- I have not seen that movie in a long time. However Hollywood has a long history of altering 1873 trapdoor Springfield rifles to resemble a variety of flintlock firearms, including “pirate pistols”. The movie gunsmiths tack on a cosmetic flintlock mechanism and alter barrels and stocks. That is my guess as to what you saw on the silver screen. Ed

  21. Mattr61– I just viewed the trailer for Distant Drums. You ate right about the Colt 1873 pistol. The soldiers are using 1873 trapdoor carbines. The picture quality is poor, but I am sure that the Seminoles are equip ed with modified trapdoor rifles . Ed

  22. JSB Exact King Heavy 33.95 grain (weight sort) test data:

    In preparation for the above challenge, I sorted some pellets. I thought I would share it since I had the data and I rarely sort.

    33.4 (3), .5 (2), .6 (4), .7 (16), .8 (11), .9 (16), 34.0 (25), .1 (18), .2 (9), .3 (9). A few went over the 34.3 mark.

    • Chris USA
      I seen above where you sorted head size and I mentioned for you to check over all legnth of the pellet too. And you did.

      Do you have that data wrote down too?

      Oh and how about a 100 yard penetration test? You did the 50 yard test already. We need the 100 yard now so we can compare.

      • Gunfun1,

        CONGATULATIONS!!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 You have won the contest,…. by a Land Slide!!!!! 🙂

        Group 1} 10 @ 4 3/4″
        Group 2} 10 @ 8″, 9 @ 4 1/8″ and 8 @ 3 1/2″
        Those were the unsorted ones.

        Group 3} 10 @ 4 1/2″, 9 @ 3 9/16″
        Group 4} 10 @ 3 15/16″, 9 @ 3 3/4″ and 8 @ 1 1/2″
        Those were the sorted ones.

        As for the head and length data, I only have the data from the 34.0’s weights. All 10 of (group 3) had .2505 head size and the length was .355 for 8 and .354 for 2.

        (Group 4) had 3 @ .250 head and 7 @ .251. The length was .353 for 1, .354 for 7 and .355 for 2.

        And no, I did not do the 2×4 test. Next time out.

        Oh well, some days you eat the Bear,.. and other days the Bear eats you! 😉 I am with you on the trash talk,… that ain’t me either. I never was that good at it.

        Congrats again! :), Chris

        • Chris USA
          Wow really. I thought you would of got better today from what you shot Friday and last week.

          But don’t feel bad. Today it’s hot and humid and sunshine here today. And got about a 11 mph crosswind blowing too. And it’s gusting to about 14 mph.

          I shot 2 groups 10 shots each again. And i made shure i shot when the wind was at its calmest point which was the 10 mph mark. Definitely not as good as yesterday. The 2 groups were at 2-1/4″. They were to the right of my red 1-3/4″ circle today. Remember yesterday the groups were on the top of the red circle and to the right of the red circle. Today the wind is out of the East which is opposite from yesterday. And the groups were only about a 1/2″ tall today but spread out to the 2-1/4″ horizontally.

          So see how the wind changes things. But remember my 2″ diameter by 5″ long corn cob. Even with today’s groups if the corn cob was laying flat and horizontal I would hit it. So that’s something I take into consideration when I do shoot it at the longer distances. If the wind is straight behind or in front of me the groups end up being verticle. If it’s a crosswind the groups will be verticle. So I have to think about that and we’re to place my reticle for hold when I shoot at the longer distances.

          But since you posted your 50 yard penatration test I’ll post mine. And my 100 yard test too. That way you can see what the extra velocity is doing for my gun also.

          First thing is the 2×4 is 1.500″ thick.

          Here’s the JSB 33.95’s
          1.125″ @ 50 yards. .525″ @ 100 yards.

          Now the Barracuda 31.02’s
          Complete pass through @ 50 yards.
          .875″ @ 100 yards.

          But anyway it was fun. And did you by chance try any groups again with the mags like you were using instead of the single shot tray that you tryed today? Maybe your gun likes the mags. Just a thought.

          • And I meant to the left of the red circle yesterday.

            You got the target pictures. See what I mean about how the groups changed just from the wind speed and direction.

          • GF1,

            Yes it was fun. Who would of thunk it that I would ever be trying it awhile back? 😉 That extra 150 fps you are getting with the 33.95’s really does make a difference further out! That is packing some serious punch! The HN’s too, but they do not seem to do well in my gun. I will try them again though,… I had better,…. I have 4 cans of them.

            As for the mags., I do not know. They are more convenient and fun, I will say that! Plus, it helps me to stay in the “rhythm” better, if you know what I mean? One thing for sure, I go through a heck of a lot more lead a whole lot faster with the mags. Something to consider on .25 pellets. Plus, the gun top ups are more frequent.

            Now,… I will settle down and quit playing and get down to some serious testing with the current tune. As you know, that takes awhile. I just have to “formulate” the test schedule and topics of importance. I guess knowing where I will hit at all 10 increment yardages might be a good start.

            Thanks for the fun,… and the lesson. The “lesson” you ask?,…….. don’t mess with the Gunfun1!!

            😉 Chris

            • Chris USA
              And you know your funny. Don’t mess with the Gunfun1. Trust me yesterday was a good day. I know the gun shoots but will probably be the best for me for sure.

              Remember the rain thing. Well I think I might know the reason now why the rain is working for me. It’s the overcast sky. The clouds and such sheild the light. My pupils are dilated bigger. I think I can see the target better on the cloudy shady days. I know when it’s sunny out I have more trouble with my floaters messing with my vision. All in all I had real good conditions yesterday and I felt good to actually. I was well rested and actually excited about the contest. So I think I was hyped up a little. So I guess yes the competion blood is still flow in my veins a little bit anyway.

              It was fun. I will say that rather than the same ole same ole of putting a hole in something. It added some excitement to my shooting day.

              But from now on really no more competition for me. I don’t want to even go there with how I know I can be when it comes to competing.

              I just want to enjoy shooting. That’s what it will be from now on.

              • GF1,

                Gotcha’,…. I am glad you had a really good day. That was very impressive.

                Now,…. I had real trouble getting a clear picture at even 10 mag. with the UTG. Yea, it worked, but I wanted to max. it out. I just could not get my eyes to work with it. The eye relief was much more critical. The picture was cloudy it seemed.

                I did a test this am at 41′ indoors and had it cranked to 16. Looked good and clear. But at 100,.. forget it. ALSO, I just did a test with the Hawke on the LGU at 10. It was clear. Then a test with the UTG at 12 on the TX, more cloudy. I know how you like the Hawke’s, but the eye relief seems much more critical.

                Some days, I can shoot good outside and can push the mag. level. Ohers days, not. I will say that 99% of the time, I shoot in shade. It may be full sun shine 30-90 feet in front of me, but I am in the shade. I even made a sunshade for the front about 8″ long. I could not see where it helped, when cloudy or sunny. Maybe those only work in direct sun? I do not know.

                What do you think?

                • Chris USA
                  I had a 30 mm tube Hawke sidewinder scope on my FX Monsoon when I had it. Had a sun shade on the front of it.

                  I didn’t make any difference to me as to how well I could see with it on or off. Out in sun or in the shade. Other people might get different results but I didn’t notice any difference.

                  But what I have noticed and with my RC plane flying when I had those brown tinted pilots glasses is they kept my eyes shaded so my pupils were actually dilated big. That way when I was watching my plane out in sunny or even low light conditions like in the evening when I was still flying. As long as I kept the glasses on and didn’t let my eyes get exsposed to the bright sunshine I could see the plane real good.

                  So like you shooting in the shade but it’s lit up out in front of you is pretty much like me shooting in the breezway. I still really need to keep my eyes shaded so the eyes are dilated bigger.

                  That helps me see and shoot the best. But it does help to have a good scope.

                  • GF1,

                    Let me get this straight,…. I need special glasses, which you are pretty sure that are not even made anymore,…. and,…. I need a better scope? Wait, don’t even answer that. That was a joke,…. sort of. 😉

                    Maybe it was this article,.. or the one on the spotting scope,… but B.B. mentioned having “this and that” scope in the past, some very good names, some even the same name,… and one was good and one was crap.

                    One test I have not done yet is to get into the woods and see if I can max. it out and get better results. I am in the shade already, but that would be a step up in the shade category, as in no direct sun at all, even if I am in shade 30-90 feet in front of me at my bench, still a step up.

                    All I know is that if I want to shoot 100 yards, in the sun or shade, I want to be able to see what I am looking at crystal clear.

                    Did I mention that I “might” be just a “tad” difficult to please? ;(

                    • Chris USA
                      The best scenario is. Eyes shaded and In a shaded shooting area with your target brightly lit from the sun light or artificial light.

                      Right now is a good shooting conditions for me again to a extent. I got 50 yards of shade all around me and the feild is brightly lit right now by the sun shine.

                      Even with the slip on polarized sunglasses I have now that I clip on my prescription glasses work. I picked them up the other day. They were only $10.

                      I realized why the darker glasses was working the other day when we was talking about different colored glasses. Bright glasses just makes your eyes dilate smaller.

                      So I thought. Bigger eye pupil is just like a bigger objective lens on a scope. It will pick up more detail as to what your looking at.

                  • GF

                    I find sun shades worthless MOST of the time . If you are trying to shoot in a direction that lets the sun hit the front lens, then the sun shade really works .
                    The sun lights up the lens and the whole scope , making the scope useless .
                    The shade greatly reduces the angle at which the sun can get into the scope .


  23. B.B. I just picked up a Benjamin Marauder Air Pistol. I was wondering what is a good sight in distance for one of these based on 600-650 fps expected velocity. I know you did some stuff on this in the past and as I recall you suggested something in the 18 yard range for low power airguns. Since I consider this to be a 35 yard gun plus or minus gun, what in your opinion is a good starting point to get the flattest trajectory? Bub

    • Bub
      I had a .22 caliber Marauder pistol and I had the 1399 stock on it that they came with.

      Had a Hawk sidewinder scope on it and had scope rings that just allowed me to clear the mag. Was shooting the JSB 15.89 pellets through it. Shot at about the same distances as you. I sighted at 35 yards.

      But if you go to the Hawke website there is a free balistic caculater program that you can use to get different information about your gun and scope for sight in. And it’s made for air gun use. It’s not a firearm caculater.

      But I always say this. It’s just for estimating. Only true results will be when you shoot your gun at different distances and document the results.

      And I know you asked BB but I had one so I thought I would share that info with you. Hope it helps. Let us know what you come up with.

      • OK thanks for your help I’m not as up on things but always read great things technical things. And at times I just ride the wave and hope to glean a bit of seaweed from it all lol. And theses blogs usually send me away covered. Thanx once more will be sending back to Crosman and hope finally get a sweet one back this will be second return in a row. Hey if ya have any pull at Crosman lol tell em send me a good one lmao. Jokes of course laters

        William Dawson

  24. Harvey– Remington had a contract to make Mosin-Nagant rifles for the Russians. The revolution occured before most of these rifles were shipped to Russia. Remington only made rifles, so the Russians must have converted the one that you had to a carbine, or someone did the job after the rifle came back to the USA. Keep in touch, I have enjoyed meeting you. Ed

  25. HI Ed,
    I have enjoyed meeting you also. Now, I have another question. Since you have the 1914, do you also have any other Gletcher products ? I tried my best to get a working Umarex blow back PO8 and went through 3 of them. They seemed to be determined to self destruct with their blow back. Returned 2 and gave a broken one away. Wish now I had kept it for a wall hanger. I would sacrifice the ability of field strip one, if the thing would stay together. I see Gletcher has a Po8 and a Parabellum . I really can’t tell much difference between them. I also have a Legends C96 that self destructed. Hope you can share some info.

  26. B.B – read your blog regularly, but first time posting here. I’m a big fan of the 853 having worked on 5 different CMP refurbs. The latest I got from a fellow member of one of the boards who got frustrated and gave it away because it was shooting ridiculously underpowered, <350fps. I took it apart, cleaned it and replaced the seals (which he had already done as well) but found a lot of grease inside the valve. Someone had evidently used grease to lubricate the valve stem. I cleaned that out as well and got it up to around 430fps. I think there may be grease in the transfer port so planning to take it apart again. Couple of questions for you. First, do you know if the black plastic plug at the base of the valve is press fit or threaded? I believe removing that plug gives you access to the transfer port, but have hesitated so far to try to extract it by force. Second, looking at the design of the valve, I think air enters the compression chamber through the breech and transfer port on the intake stroke of the pump handle. Other people seem to think there's an inlet hole somewhere in the valve body or compression tube. What's your thought on that?

    Thanks much, and looking forward to the next update.


    • Ed,

      Welcome to the blog.

      A single stroke pneumatic gets its air from the pump side of the gun. The compression stroke (the downward stroke of the pump handle, forced air past the intake valve. The suction you feel and hear is the piston sucking air into the compression cylinder, then compressing it and forcing it into the valve.

      Threads versus press fit I cannot answer, but I do know Daisy went the cheapest way they could on every design aspect.


  27. To clarify the air intake question above, I believe suction from the piston on the intake stoke with the pump handle opens the valve, enabling air to flow from the breech through the transfer port into the compression chamber. At the end of the intake stroke when pressure is equalized in the compression chamber and the breech, the spring closes the valve and then the air can be compressed on the closing stroke of the pump handle. Your thoughts?

  28. Hi BB, should have read on to part 4 of your write-up! In the “Break the spacer” section of The Daisy 853: Part 4, where you had to replace the two stock screws with one, I think that’s the exactly opposite of my stock screw problem. My newer rifle had one screw, which appear to self tap into the action. Whereas the older version has a bolt/nut combo and only the nut part is tapped into the action. The part of action this screw anchors to appear to be plastic. If the rear stock screw was removed and replaced numerous times, the threads will wear out! Your thoughts?


    • Peter,

      There screws do not screw directly into that action of the rifle, as I recall. There are inserts into which they are screwed.

      If they screw into actions, then the entire action has to be replaced when the hole strips. I guess that is what you are telling me is happening to you?


  29. Hi BB, I can’t really see the anchor point without pulling it apart, but I think the hole was stripped or the insert broke from the factory . The action just popped out after 8 shots! Anyhow, the sales team was kind enough to issue a return authorization. I am, however, still wanting to purchase one of these, or other 10 meter target rifle within the same price range AND performance as the 853. Any recommendations?


  30. Hi BB, wow a 100 bucks! It looks like I have to belong to a CMP affiliated club, to which I’m not. I guess they’re giving clubs and young people a break into the sport……what about us old(er) folks? 🙂

    Have you bought from gunbroker.com? Are they reputable? Is it like an eBay specifically for guns?


      • Hi BB, one more question….some reviews of the 853 say it has a plastic receiver. Is that true? However, some dealer description specifically say the *753* receiver was actually die cast metal. Is that also true? Is the plastic just to keep cost down? in your opinion, which is better, 853 or 753?


        • peter,

          The 853 receiver is metal (diecast), just like the 753 receiver. But the “receiver: is comprised of many parts, some of which are thin shells and some of which are plastic.

          Whenever you read a review that says something like this, think it through. There is no way that Daisy would bear the cost of two different manufacturing methods to build essentially the same gun. Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to run two different production lines, and millions to maintain double parts? It makes no sense.


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