by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- B.B. is on board
- Benjamin Marauder
- Weight and fit
- Number of shots
- Where is the pump tube?
- Keep those power adjustments?
- No, to a parts kit
- Don’t even THINK it!
- So what?
- Crosman knows, too
I am not writing an historical report today, because something has crept into our discussions that needs to be addressed. I will make up for this by publishing an extra historical report next Tuesday, along with the Monday and Friday reports.
This will be a good report for airgun companies to read, because it comes straight from the grassroots users of your airguns. They are asking for a specific multi-pump pneumatic.
B.B. is on board
This discussion has been going on for many months — maybe even longer than a year. American airgunners say they would like a high-quality multi-pump pneumatic, and today we are going to look at all that might mean. I’ve just watched this from the sidelines until now, but I do have things to contribute, so today I’m going to start the dialog in ernest.
The rifle many have suggested using as a starting point is the Benjamin Marauder. But let’s examine that closer. I don’t think people really want the Marauder to be turned into a multi-pump — they just aren’t able to express what they really want, and the Marauder is a quality PCP with a lot of great features. So they cling to it. Let me attempt to define the ultimate multi-pump more clearly.
Weight and fit
The Marauder is large and heavy. Multi-pumps are supposed to be svelte. I once owned a Daystate Sportsman Mark II that was a multi-pump built to PCP standards — exactly what people have been asking for. That rifle was too large and much too heavy, at 11 lbs. when scoped. Let’s be honest, most shooters will mount a scope, so build the gun with that in mind.
The Marauder has a good scope base on the receiver, but the total rifle weighs too much. And the pump mechanism will add more weight. I would like to see our end rifle weigh no more than 8 lbs. when a good scope is mounted. That’s a good lightweight scope — not the Hubble Space Telescope! And I would like the stock to be slim and feel comfortable when carried. The first-generation Marauder is stocked with a rough-hewn fence post. The latest version of the rifle with the synthetic stock is much closer to what we want — maybe even exactly what we want.
The Marauder trigger is where it needs to be already. Unless someone can build all the same features, adjustments and performance into a lighter unit — leave the trigger alone! It’s one reason people are talking about using the Marauder as the starting point.
Number of shots
This question comes from Dennis Quackenbush. How many shots do you expect to get from the new rifle? One? Several? How many?
Before you answer that, consider this — multi pumps that get multiple shots are quirky. They don’t always work the way you think they do — or should. They ARE NOT like PCPs with a pump attached! No, they’re not. It may be fun to think about them that way, but the reality is they get one or perhaps two good shots, and then the power starts falling. Shot number three might go through the same hole as the first and second shots at 25 yards, but miss them by half an inch at 50. And all subsequent shots will fall off. The advertisments tell you that you can get several good shots on a fill, or you can top off with a couple of pumps after each shot. Believe me, if you want accuracy you will be topping off.
Personally, I want a single-shot multi pump. They are the simplest to design and build, which makes them the most reliable. But that’s just me. I go for accuracy and repeatability over everything else.
I say no. This is a multi-pump. You have to stop and pump the gun for every shot. A repeating capability is lost on a gun like that.
Yes, yes and yes! That’s a feature nearly everyone wants. And if we use the Marauder as the base gun starting point, it’s already there.
I know — you want the mostest power possible, right? Well, that ain’t happening! The Daystate Sportsman Mark II delivered 25 foot-pounds in .22 caliber on just 5 pumps. Ah, but the last two of those pumps took 77 pounds of effort — more than 50 percent of adult males are willing or even able to apply. And that was for each shot!
Pump number 3 with that rifle took 56 lbs. of effort and brought the power up to about 17-18 foot-pounds, depending on the pellet. So that was where I stopped 90 percent of the time. I don’t like the 56 lbs. of effort, but the 17-18 foot-pounds of power might be nice. Maybe 8-10 pump strokes to get there.
You can argue that it’s possible to make a rifle that takes more pumps to reach its maximum potential. But there is always a tradeoff between power and shot count and the number of pumps it takes to reach the maximum fill. Plus you must consider the effort each pump stroke will take. Yes, exotic linkages with changing fulcrums will reduce the effort, but before we design them we first have to know what we are trying to achieve from the gun.
Where is the pump tube?
I suppose you want to keep the rifle as a single-tube airgun — right? Because the pump tube has to go somewhere. If it goes inside the same tube that is now serving as the reservoir, then the size of the remaining reservoir space will be significantly reduced. Think about that when you specify the power and the shot count you hope to see.
Do you want a double-tube gun like some of the Korean PCPs? Or should it be just a single tube with both the pump mechanism and the reservoir built into the same tube?
Don’t hamstring the rifle off the bat. Make it possible to mount good optional sights that are non-optical. At least don’t make it next to impossible. Even go to the effort of mounting sights during the development phase. That will tell you if they work.
Keep those power adjustments?
The Marauder is superior to other PCPs in its ability to be adjusted by the user. You can change the power of the striker spring within limits and also change the airflow through the transfer port. In a precharged gun those adjustments are significant benefits.
No doubt they will also work for a multi-pump, though not as currently designed. The transfer port flow regulator can probably stay the same, but the striker spring may need to be changed to suit the new lower pressure level of the gun. Is it useful to be able to adjust that? The main purpose of that adjustment was to gain shots when the rifle was tuned, and also to adjust the rifle to the available air pressure of the fill. With a multi-pump the fill pressure is controlled by the number of pump strokes, so once again I ask, is this a feature we need to retain?
No, to a parts kit
Reader GunFun 1 postulated that Dennis might even make just the parts required to modify a Marauder into this new multi-pump. That way, owners could modify their own rifles. Dennis’ reaction was, “And who covers the liability?” You may not be aware of this, but when you make a kit for owner to install, if they injure themselves while building it or while using if after the modification, you are responsible.
Don’t even THINK it!
No one had better even mention the possibility of putting a fitting on this air rifle so we can shortcut around the need for pumping and fill the rifle from a scuba tank! Don’t laugh. That sort of thing happens all the time in committees run by groupthink. Someone wakes up in the final 15 minutes of a 2-hour design meeting and adds their one comment that the rifle should also be a PCP. That person should be barred from all future meetings. We are building a multi-pump air rifle — not some fantasy piece from the Batcave!
I wrote this report to get your comments. Dennis Quackenbush is intrigued by this idea and, although he hasn’t committed to it yet, he is thinking about it. He will read your comments and see if he thinks doing something like this is worthwhile. He already knows it’s possible.
Crosman knows, too
Crosman also reads this blog, as they do all places on the internet that talk about their products. They know very well that knowing what the customer wants is a powerful marketing tool.
On the other hand, they can’t just charge off and create everything that’s dreamed up by a group of enthusiastic airgunners — no matter how many of them promise to buy one. As reader 45Bravo pointed out, they have to look at the big picture. Is it worth their time and money developing an airgun that only dedicated airgunners will want? They have a finite amount of engineering time available and a finite budget for development.
The Benjamin Discovery was an out-of-the-park home run for them, as was the Marauder. But the Benjamin Rogue was not so good. And that was followed by the Bulldog that hasn’t set the world on fire yet.
Still, they took a chance building the Maximus, and I think it will be another homer for them. So, if they see how this can go they may be better able to make a decision to proceed. The few dozen or even hundred rifles that Dennis might make will be inconsequential if this project turns out well.
217 thoughts on “Let’s build a multi-pump!”
I grew up shooting a C series Sheridan Blue Streak with the rocker safety. BB, I believe you said that it would too costly to retool the current 396/392 series but my dream pumper would be a Streak built to the original C series specifications and quality but with and updated breach to make mounting optics easier. Could the long steel breach for the 2400kt be used? I can live with the Streak trigger but an upgraded trigger would be nice. Make the barrel slightly longer and add an integrated moderator.
And please offer a 20 cal option, if only through the custom shop. Single shot is fine. I never found my Blue Streak to be difficult to pump even at 10 or 11 when I received my Blue Streak. But I seldom pumped it up over 5 pumps. That was adaquate for the pest birds I hunted.
BB, any estimate of the selling price for my dream gun?
This should be an interesting Friday blog.
Amen to the humble .20 cal!
It’s the best caliber for a multi-pump…. IMHO.
It was 45Bravo the other day that mentioned the tube kit. He was responding to me with my handle at the beginning of his reply. He offered his .177 Marauder to be used as the test bed.
And I’m very glad you did this report.
So something’s I would like to bring up about what you said you would like to see the multi-pump turn out like.
First a lighter weight would be nice.
Second a shroud? Well it doesn’t have to be a shroud. But some kind of sound moderator added to the barrel in some form from the factory would be great It’s just silly to build a gun this day and age without one.
Third. Yes one shot per how ever many pumps you make. I want to be able to control each shot with the velocity I choose by individual pumps.
Fourth. The gun does need to be a repeater. Your thinking target shooting again. Where you pump and stop and load the pellet then take your time for the shot. Sorry nope on the single shot. What is good about the rotary spring loaded magazine the Marauder uses is its simple in operation first off. And if your out truly hunting or pesting multiple magazines loaded up with 10 shots each is easy to carry in your pocket clip that have already been preloaded. Kind of a safe way to carry multiple pellets I can with out banginging them up or spilling them when your climbing over logs and wading through creeks and so on. And it does speed up things for your next shot. If you got mice or something running around and thinking their hiding from you. You want to be fumbling around Christmas trying to load a pellet after you rapidly and quietly pumped up your gun. So yes a magazine repeater for sure.
And I have to add one more thing for Crosman to add to the fresh clean price of paper. You know how a pump gun goes (Clack) everytime you complete the pump stroke. Even when you try to cushion it with your pumping hand. Please put a piece of foam rubber in the pump handle or on the main tube so we all can have silent pumping.
And ok we don’t really need the big size tube the Marauder uses. A Discovery tube would be fine. And yes a nice sleek easy to handle stock. And I’m going to say wood. The wood stock from the Discovery that I put on the 1377 is very nice to pump. Yes pump. It feels smooth in your hand and easy to grip when you have to pull the handle open on the next pump. I gf rip with my fingers and thumb to open then I open my hand and use the phone almost of my hand corner to close. And yes I have the handle cushioned on the inside to quiet the Clack. Let me tell you alot nicer to pump than the sharp skinny plastic pump handle on the 1322/77. Oh and got to have the adjustable cheek riser. And of course the dove tails on the steel breech to mount a scope.
Hmm maybe the multi-pump were looking for could be the 1377/22 with a breech that accepts a rotary magazine like the Marauder with a Discovery barrel and some sort of moderator on the muzzle of the gun. And the Marauder trigger. A Discovery wood stock but with a adjustable comb. That would be a lightweight crank ergonomic package I believe.
My phone is ridiculous and I did go back and read before I posted. Here’s some correction’s.
“And if your out truly hunting or pesting multiple magazines loaded up with 10 shots each is easy to carry in your pocket (clip) that have already been preloaded.”
Clip is not suppose to be there.
“You want to be fumbling around (Christmas) trying to load a pellet after you rapidly and quietly pumped up your gun.”
Suppose to say. You (don’t) want to be fumbling around trying to load a pellet after you rapidly and quietly pumped up your gun.
“I gf rip with my fingers and thumb to open then I open my hand and use the phone almost of my hand corner to close.”
Suppose to say. I grip with my fingers and thumb to open the pump handle and use the palm of my hand to close.
“That would be a lightweight (crank) ergonomic package I believe.”
Crank is not suppose to be there.
Heck I just rewrote my whole reply almost. Phones. They are like those love/hate relationships. You love’em for what all they’ll do for you. But hate’em when they make you do more and don’t cooperate.
Sounds like the air rifle you are wanting to build. 😉
Slow down there Mr. RidgeRunner. Set back and go for a ride today.
Let’s wait and see what people have to say about a modern day multi-pump design.
Remember today is a open book. We have a blank piece of paper sitting in front of us today that hopefully Crosman will see.
I say let your imagination cross over to reality today. I’m excited and can’t wait to see what everybody comes up with.
So far it seems to me people are interested.
LOL! Part of me would indeed like to see Crosman build a Marauder version of the FX Independence. I have seriously considered one in the past. They are excellent air rifles. The major problem is without a scope mounted they weigh eight pounds. If you are sitting at the range on a bench that is not too bad, but if you start humping that thing around in the woods here, you are going to start thinking that Maximus is what you really want. Even the Gen II SynRod will seem like a big honker.
This is the primary reason I am going to sell or trade off the Diana 46E. It is a really nice shooting air rifle with a sweet trigger, but the thought of carrying that thing all day tells me to find something lighter.
You know you say that about heavy guns. I use to carry around some heavy rifles when I was a kid. And I would be out all day shooting. From sun up to sun down.
And you remember that Mrod that Lloyd built the double tube for me. I didn’t have a stock on it. It had a very light 1720T pistol grip assembly on it and one of the RAI adapters with a AR butt stock. The extra resivoir tube he made out of aluminum and it was a smaller diameter tube like the size of the Discovery tube. It went under the factory barrel.
I don’t know how much lighter it was than a factory Marauder but I could carry it around all day long without getting tired.
And you know there is such thing as slings. So the weight doesn’t really bother me.
One suggestion for the pump “handle” on an As You Wish multi-pump would be the style used on the Umarex NXG APX. Though, my preferred caliber is the .22, as I often used mine for hunting, but that was back when you had to pump it 20 times to get enough pressure to make a clean kill on a cottontail at 20-30 yards. With newer technology, 5-10 pumps should suffice, but this design for the handle is much safer for fingertips and knuckles.
Nice. Many of us have been willing to double the price of a 392 or 397 to try and get the performance we want. The infamous steroid kit is a good example. By the time we are shooting the rifle, with mods, $350-$400 dollars is there. It is like the 13xx series. We want what we want. The Benjamin has so many limitations. But it is still a rifle I grab often to plink in the backyard, 15 – 20 shots at a time. It is FUN. It’s also the gun, because of the light weight, that I grab for a walk in the woods when I’m not specifically hunting anything in particular. It’s nice to have a tin of pellets and nothing else to haul around.
I’m NOT a shooter like many. I don’t have a chronograph, a spotting scope, and a bunch of tools for measuring the performance of my pellet guns. I read a lot, and have found that I can use the results of folks who post on the forums to save me a good deal of money. When there is consensus it’s usually a safe purchase. That frees up $ for ammo and guns if BB and the rest of you do all the work for us. I shoot for the sheer joy of sharing with the kids, a walk with my dog, and getting rid of a few frustrations. I’ve put more than a few meals on the table, but not enough to justify spending the thousands I’ve spent. I’m at the point where I simply don’t have room for many more pellet guns. But….the Maximus. Yep. And a really GOOD multi-pump pnuematic? Yep. My 1322, with long barrel, trigger, breech, bolt….it would be easier to list what Hasn’t been changed–was worth it. i think this would be too.
Finally, the voice of reason!
You sly dog. Doing this on a Friday will gather together everybody’s thoughts on the topic with time for them to think about it.
Your description is pretty spot on for what I would want. Base it on the Discovery / Maximus. With the longer barrel it will be more efficient and the longer tube will allow for a longer pump lever to help with the compression. 15-20 FPE is a great power range for something like this. I can even live with the Discovery / Maximus trigger, but if you can make it better, please do so. It needs to be rugged, but light and above all K.I.S.S.
Those clamoring for a multi pump Marauder need to take a look at a FX Independence. I have. I would not want to take that thing on a hike through these hills chasing after tree rats. I would much rather hump a Maximus and a guppy bottle in my pack.
Putting an Mrod trigger on a disco just requires a spacer. I am sure crosman could make that spacer.
I have put gen1 Marauder triggers right on Discovery tubes.
Gen2’s won’t work. They changed the sear location when they went to gen2.
I know. There is also an aftermarket sear you can put in the Disco trigger assembly that improves the existing trigger and it would be even cheaper for Crosman to make such. No, it does not make it as nice as a MRod trigger, but it is much cheaper.
So they say. I haven’t tryed one in a Discovery trigger yet to compare it to my Mrod trigger.
But I will post if I try. Have you tryed it yet and compared it to a Marauder trigger?
No I have not, but I am certain it does not improve it to where it would be as nice as a MRod.
You would absolutely hate the trigger on my 1906 BSA. It is a direct sear and it is very heavy. However, it is adjusted to where it is quite safe, but has a beautiful break. You start applying pressure and it will suddenly snap. No discernible movement before.
I would say that I could get use to the trigger on your BSA. Just because if I had it I would never get rid of it. 🙂
It is my favorite air rifle to shoot. It hangs in the great room with a Wilkins Pouch filled with pellets, ready to go.
The next time I go in I will do a little work to lighten the pull up a bit, but because of the clean break you can get used to it real quick. I was amazing guys at the Fun Shoot by hitting a 3/4″ spinner at 10 yards time and time again from a standing position. It is a real shooter. No, it is not going anywhere. If I sold every other air rifle and pistol I have and kept it, I would be content.
It’s all about enjoying them.
Heck I have been shooting my 1077 alot lately with open sights even. It doesn’t have the best trigger either. But once you get use to it. It works. I can go to from spinner to spinner and hit pretty well everytime now with hardly any pause between shots. Kind of like when they do the 3 gun competition.
I was practicing with multiple cans set out with the Brodax till the seal screwed up. So thinking about getting a colt Python to replace the Brodax. Since I already got the steel clips I got for the Brodax.
There was one of the colt pythons on the Wally world shelf the other day and I almost bought it. I think I might just go see if it’s there today.
But yep all about fun. 🙂
First, thanks for bringing some real (focus) to this idea. I have not jumped in on many of the conversations, but I do have an opinion or two.
As for a multi-pump,.. the Daisy 880 has the (looks) down in spades. Just needs to adult sized.
The long pump arm, like on the 880, is much nicer to use than the short and awkward one on the 760.
Noise on pump arm close?,.. do not build in an automatic latch. Yes, a cushion. For a latch, make it a slide of sorts that can be easily applied when done pumping. Ambi.
Repeater?,.. my opinion is that it would be nice,… one less step. Like GF1 mentioned, much nicer than fumbling around for your next pellet. BUT, keep the profile below the receiver. Not proud of the receiver, like the M-rod. Feed off the top of the magazine, not the bottom. The M-rod magazines do work real nice though.
Yes, adjustable, (AMBI) stock/comb. LOP too please. Get someone 6′ 4″ tall and see what they think.
Safety? The Marauder trigger and safety are fine. IF,.. placing the safety somewhere else,… the LGU, with it’s slide safety at the receiver rear is real nice. No cross pins,.. there,.. or at the trigger guard please.
Well, that is my 2 cents for what it is worth. I will let the rest of you armchair pro’s take it from there. 😉
As an additional thought,… B.B. mentioned that multi-shot pneumatics do not work as you think they might,… or should. “Should”,.. I think being the key word. I could see that for a hunter,… a quick 2nd, or even 3rd,.. follow up shot(s) would be a nice thing. Then, follow up with say 3-5 pumps or so. A regulator? I do not know. We all know, as with a PCP,.. just because your psi and fps will change slightly with each subsequent shot,… the POI does not change much, if at all,.. to a point. Of course, a repeater would be ideal, but not required.
Please excuse me if i am repeating what others might have said, but one thing that i think would be VERY important is that the gun is made to handle pcp pressures. for instance, You can modify a 1377 to dump 20 pumps, but you risk deforming the hole for the pin that holds the pump arm to the airtube when you pump that high. this gun would need to be able to handle a lot of stress in those types of areas. a pinned valve for added strength would be good (as pcps often have ex. Discovery).. Another idea that i think would be cool, is maybe the gun could have a pressure gauge that reads the pressure in the valve, so if so desired, you could pump it up to a certain pressure. you could start off pumping the gun say 10-12 times to get it up to full pressure, and when the gun is fired it only dumps like 3/4’s of the volume(or whatever you have it adjusted to dump), then on following shots it would only take say 6-8 pumps to get to the target or full pressure? I also always wondered if it would be feasible to make a pumper that had an airtube/pump tube that was sat 1.5″ or 1.75″ id instead of a 7/8″ or 1″ id like modern multi pumps do. Would that be too hard to pump since you’d be moving 2x-3x more air with one pump? These are just some extra ideas, and things that i have pondered through the years. maybe they make sense, maybe not. I’ve been thinking about this for quite some time. Multi-pumps are extremely interesting, and i already own most of the the currently available pumpers, and would definitely purchase an industrial strength pumper that had pcp power. i personally would love to see one in the 24/26 ft. lbs range or thereabouts. Would be great if available in .22 and/or .25 cal. it HAS to be built strong though, and with adjustability so that you could tune it to your strength. some people could handle a 20th pump at 78 lbs of force, and the gun would need to be able to handle it, and the adjustability needs to be able to reach into those extremes as well. hope this makes sense to you guys.
Yes! My first PCP was a Marauder as was my second and 3rd, another Marauder and then a Marauder pistol. But then I discovered my dream gun… An FX Independence.
Since I bought the Independence I rarely shoot the other guns anymore. It is quieter, more accurate and has a better trigger. I love it’s self-contained simplicity.
B.B. most of the qualities you’re looking for are already in the Independence. You might approach the design from another standpoint of starting with the Independence and seeing how you could build it less expensively if possible.
I strongly urge you to borrow one for firsthand evaluation.
And don’t overlook another cherished and highly successful multi pump air gun the Sharps Ace, if I got the name correctly, which is no longer in production. From what I’ve read, it was a shining example of this genre of power plant.
I highly value the ability to both shoot single shot and top off or have two or three quick follow-up shots without pumping. Do not underestimate the value of this potential.
I have many air rifles of differing power plant types and I consider the Independence to be the crown jewel of my collection currently.
On high power it will develop almost 40 foot pounds with a heavy pellet. However most of the time I use it on medium to generate about 21 foot pounds with a lightweight 22 caliber pellet and find this to be the best combination quiet report, speed and accuracy. On low it is quite the good plinker requiring only a single pump to generate about 13 foot pounds and extremely quiet. Wow!
I grew up with a daisy 880 and then an 881 in hopes that the rifled barrel of the 881 would satisfy me but it just was not accurate enough as I became a better shot and abandoned it for Springers like by Weirauch HW – 50 and the Feinwerkbau 124 s. An accurate multi-pump, even if just a single shot, would definitely fill a niche for today’s gunners.
As an engineer myself I realize that every design includes compromises and choices must be made. You cannot always have everything but you can have a best compromise for a given subset of requirements.
A good design process starts with looking at what is possible or what has already been done and collecting the ideas from multiple examples.
Is that 1 pump from empty to hit 13ftlbs? Because I thought that kind of thing was the holy grail of SSP/MSP.
That’s after the third pump.
The Independence is essentially a PCP with a relatively small air Reservoir that has an on-board multi-stage pump with a long lever handle. Each shot releases only a portion of the air in the air Reservoir.
You can Pump It Up from scratch just using the on board pump itself ( I think this takes somewhere around 100 Pump strokes and it’s not something you normally do unless you have bled it down for service), or you can do an initial charge with an external hand pump or tank. The internal reservoir pressures are on the order of 3000 to 3200 PSI in the reservoir depending on how you set your hammer tension and desired shot string curve.
By topping off the pressure with a few pumps between each shot you are essentially providing a regulating function and using the exact same Reservoir pressure for each shot. If you do not top off between shots the reservoir pressure will begin to drop fairly rapidly because the volume is small but you can have your two or three follow-up shots without too much change in trajectory for hunting.
I have my hammer spring adjustment tightened clockwise almost to maximum which provides my desired power levels on low medium and high. With a 14.3 grain jsb The Power on low Is Right Around 13 foot pounds and requires one pump to top off. On medium with the same pellet, I get about 21 foot-pounds and three pumps are required to top off between shots. On high power, I use a 21 grain pellet for about 38 or 39 foot pounds and it takes 5 pumps to top off the reservoir between shots.
I had to experiment quite a bit to find the most accurate pellet for each power level. The power selector I believe is just a rotary disc with 3 different size transfer port apertures. I don’t know for sure but that is my guess. A new design based on the Independence would not need quite as much complexity and could have a fixed transfer Port size or one that is adjustable with a screwdriver. And perhaps the pump would not have to be quite as large so it would be acceptable to have a few more Strokes to top off between each shot with perhaps a little less effort. But I am just throwing out some ideas here for discussion.
Steven to answer your question on low-power it takes only one pump to return the reservoir pressure back to nominal pressure (I use about 3200 psi and check the onboard gauge after pumping to know when I have topped off to my desired nominal pressure ) for the next shot and yes it is about 13 foot pounds in my gun for each shot on low power.
Feinwerk, how much effort is required to pump your Independence? Say, you want to top it off on high power (5 pumps, as you mentioned)?
Like a regular PCP, the pressure that I pump to is the same regardless of the selected power level. All you are doing is returning the reservoir to a consistent air pressure.
I just did a quick test of the pump stroke force using my bathroom scale with a folded up towel on top of it. This is a method that BB once described in one of his blogs on cocking effort. I pumped the gun a couple of times to be sure that all stages were fully engaged with compressed air and then on the third pump I turned it over and place the pump handle on the scale and pushed the rifle down vertically until the lever was closed.
The peak Force I read was about 28 pounds at a reservoir pressure of 3200 PSI/220 bars. There is also a slight resistance when opening the lever arm as this movement actually pre compresses some of the air before the closing stroke. I think it’s a rather ingenious design.
The lever arm is pretty long actually. I measured it at 19 inches from the pivot point to the end of the handle.
I pump it the way I used to pump my old Daisy 880. I point the muzzle straight up and move the pump lever outward with one hand while simultaneously gripping the stock around the wrist with the other hand, moving it in the opposite direction like working a giant pair of scissors. It’s kind of like using a chest exerciser.
The FX Independence has always interested me. And you can’t hardly beat the smooth twist barrel for accuracy.
Since some people are wanting the pressure of a PCP, does the Independence have an on-board (multi-stage) pump, or, is it just a single stage that would be pretty small? I am assuming that the Independence is first bulk filled,… and then topped off manually? I have looked into it when first getting into PCP’s, but do not know any of the finer technical details.
It has a multi stage pump. You can pump it up from zero with the onboard pump or you can fill it with a separate hand pump or a tank, etc. They are pretty nice, but bring a thick wallet. My main beef would be lugging that thing around in the woods all day. It is not a featherweight.
Thank you, as I was not sure. Feinwerk, just above, gave quite a detailed explanation. Between the 2 of you, I got it.
Although it was not my intent, after re-reading the article,.. I see that I may have bordered on B.B.’s orders to “don’t even think” about a fill fitting. Eeeekkkkk!,… The “Godfather” is probably setting up to have me “Wacked” as we speak. 🙁
The FX Independence has a fill fitting so as to allow you to use a hand pump or a tank to fill the small reservoir. Most people who have one of these things use the onboard pump to top off between shots.
As I am seeing it, there are two basic lines of thought going here. One group is looking for an improved 397 / 392 multi pump based on the Discovery / Maximus and the other group looking for a less expensive Independence based on the Marauder.
For proof of concept an improved MSP based on the Maximus should suffice. Aftermarket improvements could follow. Breech that allows a magazine. A shroud/moderator on the barrel. Trigger improvement by drop-in replacement of the trigger or the entire group.
You just pretty well how Crosman does things.
A new multi-pump would be a no brainer for Crosman if they do it.
I only have a minute before work, and will answer more later.
Lots of really good info here, but also a deflating reality check.
Yes I offer my rifle.
And I put it in the hand of people much more knowledgable than me.
If I get back a bag of parts, and a note saying “sorry, we tried,”.
Then that is the price of admission.
Lots of information to mull over and wade through..
Multi pumps will always hold a special place in my heart. If this comes to fruition- I’ll start saving now just in case.
Cost would come into play here. These days a lot of people turn their noses at MSP’s. You’re not going to get the velocity of a pcp or springer- and you have to pump it multiple times. So, you would have to play to the strengths of what a MSP does and what it can do- things that pcp’s and springers can’t do.
I always thought of MSP as the hunter’s air gun, kinda like a muzzleloader. The user is able to adjust the power to the game you’re going after. So I agree on making it a single shot.
If someone can make a msp that could get 800fps (or close to it) with a good .177 pellet, made it quiet, and got it under $300- ($250 would be better) and had a vision on how to market it, I think it could sell well.
Cost will be the sticking point.
Under $250 means you can’t start with an Mrod. Maybe a Maximus, but that leaves you very little budget for the pump. Quiet can be done with an epoxied on unit like the fusion has.
How about using a break barrel springers as a starting platform. Convert the spring tube into the compression chamber. That gives you a gun that is easy to cock with a scope in place and gives you a long lever. Being able to pump the gun with a scope in place would be important to me. And, I would rather have fewer strokes and a longer lever than more strokes with a short lever. Also, a break barrel is easy to load.
Using the Marauder as a base will negate the need for the breech to be upgradeable if they want multi-shot capability (although I would prefer use of a flat clip akin to the IZH61), this also places a built in shroud to help keep this backyard friendly. Basic open iron sights will have to be added though. Trigger is already adjustable. Pump arm will have a long throw making the most of the tube length of the Marauder. A piece of felt to muffle the “CLACK” of the forearm while pumping. To keep mechanism simple it is questionable to me to have any form of adjustability beyond that of the number of pumps changing the energy output. Hopefully this not a matter of being doable but marketable.
But remember this. Just like the Marauder. There are single shot trays available if you want to use it as a single shot.
So I say design the pumper as a repeater and then some one has the option to switch back and forth.
Quick update,… I pulled the action and checked the striker adjustment. It appears to gone in (back) to 1 3/4 turns from the 2 turns that I set it at yesterday. That was after 80 shots. I will shoot some more and re-check, but if does it again, I will go in and blue Loctite the striker adjustment. No big deal.
Got your “ears on” Crosman? The striker adjustment appears that it will move on it’s own. I was pretty sure that I had it 2 turns in awhile back and found it full back yesterday. I reset it and 80 shots later it appeared to have moved in (back) 1/4 of a turn after 80 shots.(new .25 M-rod)
Just checked mine. Still set the same.
See the bottom.
If you want several good shots per fill, why not regulate?
Honestly though, google “Millennium pumper”. This has already been done, with a disco as the base.
Making it from an Mrod is not much different, these crosman parts all bolt together just about.
I’m in complete agreement with the BBP premises. Own two Marauders (favorites for most reasons as you mention) but among other guns, was lucky to buy a very nice 1963 Sheridan Blue Streak with peep sights. It is superb in most ways.This relatively ancient design is still a good model to design from.
If there was a $400 (even more if it had the right aesthetics) gun – without scope – as you describe, I would buy it in a flash.
Not sure staying with .20 is really a good idea, as we would have very limited choices for ammo.
Suggest – some type of regulation to produce say 3-4 shots on a “fill” by pumping ten times or so. Keep some limit on the pumping force –
I would love to see Crosman start building the 101 again. Nice compact rifle, easy to pump with lots of power for small game. Think that with a modern barrel it would be a real shooter.
Multi-shot capability would be nice – there were times that a quick second shot would have been appreciated, but single shot is fine by me. My 101 taught me to be deliberate with my shooting and make the first shot count.
Multi-pump is OK but I feel that “pump once – shoot multiple times” is better. A .22 caliber PCP with a 30-40 shot capacity would be ideal for most small game hunting. Good accuracy to 25-30 yards (who shoots further than that off hand?), decent trigger and backyard friendly.
Been looking at the Maximus. I think that Crosman has winner there. Would be interesting to have a family of them – the basic unit as we see in the Maximus and add a youth model with adjustable stock, a high-pressure version (200 bar) with a regulator, a target version with aperture sights and match trigger and a deluxe version: regulated, match trigger with a wood stock. Heck, they could even offer a Mattel-O-Matic version built on the same action.
While we are “designing” a rifle 🙂 , think that a side-lever is the best way to go and that the rifle should be completely ambidextrous (stock, safety, loading).
Happy Friday All!!
Air conserving valve and hammer system. There have been several developments and one person in particular on ‘The Yellow’ that make this an intriguing thing to implement. YES, you will have to top off, but I’d rather pump 10, shoot 1, pump 3, shoot again. Pump 10, shoot 1, pump 10 gets old real quick. 1322 is somewhat of an exception because it is so darn easy to pump, but it still takes too long and is noisy so all the targets fly away.
This sounds like a good idea. My suggestion would be to make it a repeater that would be good for say, about five shots per fill. That would put it into a class above all other pumpers offered in the past. I don’t know if this could be done and keep the weight down. It would be similar to a PCP but self contained.
I didn’t mention this in the report, because I wanted to see if someone would bring it up. You just partially reinvented the Benjamin 600 Automatic of the 1930s. See page 167 in the Blue Book.
Looks like a good one to base the valve internals from. So far in my mind the Pump arm is from a 1400 the breech and barrel with shroud are from a Marauder along with the trigger. The valve mechanism seems to be the sticking point whether it will be strictly single shot then pump again or pump, shoot, shoot, shoot then pump again.
I think a lot of good points have been made. I second the longer pump arm and repeater abilities the strongest. Along with quiet pumping. I don’t hunt but the clacking gets old during an afternoon.
On repeating what are people opinion of using something like crosmans little 5 pellet clip? I have found the one on my crosman m4 to be very handy. Also loading multiple clips to take with you would be much easier than fumbling for one pellet at a time. I understand the mrod clips are way better but the little 5 shot ones keep a low profile. I don’t know how expensive of a rifle we’re talking here and I don’t wanna bring hamburger helper to a steak dinner but…
What is Dennis leading towards? I know you say the he knows it can be done, but how many avenues arrive at that point? Are we going to be able to get an mrod trigger? What kind of power does he calculate he can get with a prototype? Can we expect benji39x velocities at 8pumps? Maybe more with 10? how much force will pumping take? I think the adjustibility of power should mostly be regulated with the pumping. That’s like the main attraction IMO. 😉 I also agree the weight should be kept down a little. 7lbs bare would be lighter than some full size springers.
I know I’m asking more questions than I’m answering. But as we all know the richer we make the pot, the more Dennis will have to consider and may spark a few of his own ideas he may have missed, at least at first.
Finally it is nice to have some feedback and some actual information. Now our “spitballing of ideas” can be focused a little more. Thanks for a great blog B.B.!
When shooting my break barrels, I am good for about 100-150 shots per session. So a multi-pump that takes 6 or 7 pumps would have me tired at about 20-30 shots. We need a gun with 2-3 pumps max.!
The Daystate I mentioned could be pumped 5 times, but the effort required was horrible.
Wow, so many ideas. Mine are like many above. I have and have had lots of pumpers. I love the light weight of them, but they “wear” me out. When I shoot, I tend to shoot a lot. Too much pumping for max power. The Benjamin 392 I had would put blisters on my hand. And pump #8 would get old after about 75 shots. That said, I too would like one that you pump 10 times, then maybe 3 to top it off, if possible. The only pumpers that don’t wear me out are the Daisy. I know they are as powerful as my Benjamin was or my Crosman 2100, but they were/are more fun due to being pleasant to shoot! Single shot loading is also fine by me. I also like the long Daisy pump arm. I also would like it in .22 and yes a .25 pumper is over due. I also agree with others, I hate the clack clack clack sound when I’m trying not to “spook” something in the woods or mole/whatever pest I’m trying to hit.
Some spoke about the Daisy 880, I loved the Daisy .22 pumper with wood stocks (plastic stocks are ok). 22X, 22SG, Arkansas Can Opener or whatever #’s and names they stuck on it. The late James House loved the gun. Easy to pump, modest power and very light weight. Heck if they’d even bring back the old Daisy 880 that is “metal” I’d be happy lol.
I know it’s not what most are after, but I’d also like a medium power single pump gun too. I know 800 fps isn’t in reach, but say a 600 fps single pump would be great. Could even do the changes with the changing fulcrums so it wouldn’t be too bad. If say the effort for the single pump was like the effort it takes for the last pump of a Benjamin 392, that’s ok for me.
I will have to review my Benjamin 392 with pump-assist for you. Pump 8 takes 14 lbs. effort, as opposed to 35 lbs.
B.B., That would be Great! I’d love to read a report on it. I used to want one, but they seemed high to me (at least back then). Did the factory make that assist or was it like the ACP made now where the warranty was void? That seems like a great pumper as I loved my Benjamin 392’s wood stock, metal, brass barrel and quality feel. Would be great for hunting, but not firing off 100 rounds while plinking. Dang, now I wish they still made them.
The pump assist was an aftermarket upgrade.
B.B., I searched for it and found it….sweet. More reading to do now.
B.B., have you ever shot one of Mac-1 (Tim’s) steroid 397’s? I was wondering if Mac1’s Extended Billet lever reduced pumping effort any? Seems like it should as I believe it is longer.
I owned one years ago. No reduction in the effort that I saw.
Physics? Longer lever = less force required, no?
My vote is for something as close as possible to the Independence, even if pumping only option for charging. Want repeater for reasons mentioned, …do all pellet fumbling while loading (multiple?) mags, …not every time between hunting shots (wearing gloves, etc.).
.20-22 cal / 900FPS max with heavies (for sub sonic sound level / good hunting power, )
Long time reader, new poster in Oregon. Thanks to all for participation, needless to say max kudos to B.B/Edith
Have classic MSP’s, Ben 312 /Crossman101 /Sheridan Streaks(B=S) .
Would love a quiet state of the art 2016 MSP per suggestions in this thread w/walnut stock.
Solid build/quality materials/ good performance,…how could the maker go wrong? My guess plenty would pay a fair price for yesterday’s quality with today’s design/material improvements.
Suggestion to blog hosts : Number posts! Pages sometimes quite lengthy, …coming back after interruption means time wasting search for “Where was I?”
Welcome to the blog.
Thanks B.B., glad to be aboard.
Being new, I may not have a grip on how to use the site.
Any comment on my suggestion to number the posts?
(…or advice on how to re-locate a given point in any thread?)
I’m not sure what you are asking for. Numbering the posts? There are close to 3,000 of them since March of 2005. How would numbering help? You can search for any of them in the Search box.
I’m a novice at this forum-format stuff, …but here is what I was thinking;
If I had scrolled down, reading a large number of posts, with much scrolling and many posits still to read, and was interrupted, I could simply jot down number 2,738 (for example), and return later to scroll down to that number, rather than remembering the last of the many topics I had read (for a search,) or rather than partially reading /scroll, Partially read/scroll, until i found something I hadn’t (or didn’t remember that I had) read. Searching for what I thought would be a key word in the last post I read would likely bring up any number of posts for me to (still)sort through to find the target post.
A novice, like I said. I’m willing to accept that wiser heads than my own have set the format up well. I’ll work on the learning curve.
Thanks for the response!
I should have added, maybe the “pump tube” should be like the Crosman 1322. Like BB once said (or I think he did) they don’t see to be as hard to pump as a rifle.
I second the idea of a .25 caliber pumper also on the design we have been talking about today.
Really I would like to see a big bore pumper in .30 caliber and bigger. That would be a exciting gun. To me anyway.
I second that…I thought about a .30, but just a .25 would be better than now.
I have the civilian version of the Black Ops Junior sniper rifle that’s called a Sportsman 900. Bought it for fifty bucks at Wally World. It’s just another adaptation of the Daisy 880 with the easy pumping and horrible trgger. The scope mounting rail is kind of a joke so I had to reinforce it with J-B Weld and mount a weaver scope
rail. It currently has a utg 6 x 24 scope mounted on it. Using RWS Superdomes, 10 pounds, and 3 mil dots holdover, I was able to shoot a 7 shot 1 inch group with two flyers opening the group up to 2 and a quarter inches.
10 pumps. If this is what a modestly priced gun can do with a few modifications, then this is why we need to build a purpose-built multi pump air rifle with some of the ideas mentioned above.
That was at 55 yards shooting off a bipod and a bucket.
If I can figure out how to use blogger, I’d be willing to do a guest blog on it.
A quality built $250-300 multi-pump going to be better than any springer that you can buy for the same price.
I still shoot my classic Racine-made Sheridan from time to time, but I think this airgun concept / discussion exists mostly because of Crosman’s failure to make good on the promise of the butterfly hand pump. The Butterfly never did land, but today Chinese HPA compressors hover around the $1000 mark online. By 2018 Malaysian HPA compressors probably will be available for $500 or so.
Say, didn’t Webley market a lightweight, scope-able pumper with a threaded muzzle a couple years ago?
Michael, last Webley pumper I know of was/is the Rebel. Seems like it had quality issues. Here is B.B.’s review of it: /blog//?s=rebel&btnGo=
No this discussion doesn’t exist because of the butterfly pump.
It’s about wanting a new kid on the block. It’s that kid being talked about for years to come.
That kid is a modern multi-pump gun made with modern features. No butterfly pump.
This proposal deserves some thought, but my sense now is that this is a bad idea for at least a couple of reasons. We already have good multi-pumps with the Benjamin series. What else do people want? The second reason has to do with the fundamental appeal of the pcp. Sure, they shoot well, they look good, etc. But you also don’t have to keep powering them up. They are precharged. That is exactly what you lose with a multi-pump. I have a better idea. If the point is to make pcps more portable, design cool web gear to carry a portable pump.
I was so frustrated not having the time to comment on yesterday’s brilliant and informative blog. The story about Col. Bonsall never gets old. Competition has its points but so does annihilation by a vastly superior force. I wish he was around when I was shooting at the range with my thumb on the safety of my 1911. The rangemaster and a bearded old man, told me that I was doing it wrong. When I told them that the thumb position was supposed to reduce muzzle flip, they said that was accomplished by the outside fingers of the grip hand on the butt stock. How do you respond to earnest people with wrong advice who are certain that they know more than you do? Interesting to note that Bill Wilson, a champion pistol shot, advocates applying pressure with all the fingers on the front and back of the grip but none from the side. I wouldn’t criticize Bonsall’s method. But I do wonder if it is exclusively correct. Perhaps it is one legitimate grip among different alternatives that serves as a platform for his Jaws of the Subconscious. Incidentally, I believe that the army now favors a two-handed hold. Since the army is all about conformity, I expect that they made a complete transition at a point in time. When did that happen?
At last the details on the one-handed target technique. I have one question. For right-handed shooters, what axis is the shooting arm being rotated around? I assume it is the axis through the arm, not the vertical axis through the body. However, if I’m right, then it looks like you are going to have canted sights which is usually not recommended. Otherwise, the leaning backwards and the rest of it is all great info at a Jack Dempsey level. I’ll need to learn what cantilevered means which is one of a host of mechanical terms like “camming” that I’ve never understood. But I begin to see it.
Fid03030, the Jack Dempsey manual is called Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense. It’s been out of print for awhile but generally available online if you look, and I believe that Amazon has released a new printing. I’ve read his unarmed manual for the Coast Guard. It is mostly a mix of catch wrestling and street fighting techniques. I’m sure Dempsey could take care of himself in a free for all, but that book is not on a level with his boxing manual. I discovered it in a library among a row of old books and felt like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom. Never underestimate your libraries which probably contain the answers to all our questions in one form or another.
One reason I like the book so much is that it is such a look at Americana. William Harrison Dempsey was born in 1895 out in the West only one year after the invention of the Winchester 94. It was a rough place. People no longer walked around slinging guns, but instead they fought each other. Dempsey said that every boy wanted to be a professional fighter, and he explains how this environment created the bob-and-weave. One of his friends was very hard to hit because of his habit of crouching low and weaving his head from side-to-side. Dempsey says that he could have gone far in the ring but preferred to be a cook! Dempsey added ducking to the weaving and the bob and weave was born. He began fighting professionally at 15. Photos show him as a skinny kid, but you wouldn’t want to get in his way. He was something of a hustler, going into a bar to challenge the toughest man to a fight and then leaving before anyone could figure out what had happened. For many people, coal mining would be a fate worse than death, but Dempsey, as a sometime miner, actually liked it. His idea of a good workout was using a pick and shovel for 14 hours a day.
Perhaps the theme of his book about the modernization of America or at least of boxing is about the contrast between the apprentice and the corporate model. we tend to think of what is new as superior because of more money, technology, organization and so on. But Dempsey claims that earlier fighters were better because they had the attitude of artisans. They had no deadlines, pressures, media appearances or other distractions. They really wanted to learn how to fight and they were focused on knocking out the opponent rather than piling up points. I’ll leave his book with his lyrical description of the fight where he claimed the heavyweight title from Jess Willlard, a man who was much larger. “I was at my peak as a fighter that day I met Willard under the broiling Toledo sun (Toledo, OH was 112 degrees that day). My body weight was moving like lightning…”
As for Muhammed Ali, I was inclined to dismiss him in the context of Dempsey’s sophisticated technique. Ali was technically unsound the way that he kept his hands down and his showboating manner was the kind of thing that Dempsey deplored along with being unattractive to me. However, upon re-examination, I believe that Ali was truly great. Like other geniuses he was able to preserve a delicate balance of factors that other people could not imitate. It’s like people trying to imitate Michael Jordan’s virtuosity who just looked ridiculous. The key to Ali was his legs. He did not have the greatest handspeed although he was very fast and comparable to the best. But what really set him apart was the fastest legs of any heavyweight. And his movement was not random at all. He used the ring and was even able to move in response to punches to take the edge off of them. Within the moving frame of his body, the opponent’s punches became slower and less accurate and he was able to dodge them with head movement alone. It was when he lost his movement that he took heavy damage. But he also turned out to be incredibly tough in mind and body. Even his outrageous manner, was always combined with genuine wit. He wasn’t just obnoxious like many who try to imitate him. Otherwise, his antics were effective as a form of psychological warfare. Apparently Sonny Liston was convinced that he was insane.
One man’s judgement who I respect was a boxing writer named Ray Arcel (recently deceased) who actually saw Dempsey fight in person! He said that the greatest heavyweights were Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, and Muhammed Ali although he refused to choose between them. Along those lines there is a very interesting 50s talk show which featured a meeting between an older Joe Louis and an even older Dempsey. The premise of the show was to try recreate a fight between the two former champions. It was kind of ridiculous but it did have this interesting exchange.
Host: Joe, do you think you could have whipped Mr. Dempsey in his prime?
Louis: I don’t think anyone could have whipped Mr. Dempsey in his prime.
Host: Jack, do you think at 37 you could have beaten Joe (37 at the time)?
There are some voids to be filled by adding a modern equipped pumper to the Crosman line up.
Two places I see. One that is still cheap and light and dependable that is a step up from the 392/397. Like the 1377/ Discovery conversion I made. There is so many things that could be interchanged with other Crosman guns. Heck the RAI adapter that accepts the AR style butt stocks could be on it even. And both caliber Discovery barrels could be used.
Then the second void I see is there also needs to be a all out higher end pumper based of the Marauder concept with all its options but as a multi-pump. And the same if it was made. So many parts from Crosman can interchange and so much aftermarket stuff out there could be adapted right to the gun.
So many variations of guns could be built if they offered the two guns I just mentioned.
Did you say in a previous post that you got about 670 FPS with Crosman Heavies with 5 pumps on your 1377/Disco/Marauder pumper? That’s really useful velocity with minimal pumping, something I’m looking for.
Actually the JSB 10.34’s shooting from a 1377 with Discovery barrel and steel breech.
But yes it has shot that high before. It tends to vary with outside conditions though. Sometimes a little slower. And for some reason I guess because of the pellet design the JSB 10.34’s tend to shoot at a higher velocity than other 10 grain pellets. From what I have seen anyway.
Keep it simple.
Single shot but design a replacement action with a rotary mag- I am thinking the way he 760 is configured.That way the multi shot buffs can order through the custom shop.
15 ftlb in .177 & 17-20 in .22.
A small 4x32AO scope and give customers the option to upgrade to something better.
An articulated pump handle ( think of the Jack knife design which opens easily but needs pressure on a release button or lever to close ) the longer pump handle will make pumping easier.
Can a greater volume of air @ lower pressure per shot give the same targeted ftlb ( easier to pump ).??
Start with the Crosman 2100B. It has good power and lightweight and then ask what needs to be done to achieve the desired power.
My dream multi pump is a basic co 2 powered 2100B with a 12 gr powerlet in the pistol grip but has the capability to be multi pumped to deliver more power. A meld of the 2240 & the 2100B
Use co2 to plink.( no need for expensive sound suppression )
Add compressed air to hunt.
CO 2 starts you off with 850 psi. Use the multi pump feature to boost that higher by adding compressed air.( 78 % nitrogen : 21% oxygen + 1% Co 2 & other stuff.)
Read where this was already done by some guys in Argentina. Crosman should be able to test whether this mixture of Co2 & air would produce a stable power source- they already have the Disco that can run on either air or Co2 so add air to the reservoir containing Co2 gas or vice versa.
Pete, what.a neat idea. I have a daisy dual fuel, c02/pump rifle. But its either c02 or pump, cant do both. Being able to start at 850 psi (c02), then add pumping, it wouldn’t take near as much punping to make power. Iike it.
(on the above),…Well, that is good that yours did not move. I will bet that you “cringed” on checking that,… as I know that you do not like messing with stuff after you have it dialed in.
I did 96 shots today, 12 eight shot groups, at 70 yards. The best?,… 8 at 1″, 8 at 1 1/4″, 7 of 8 at 1″, 8 at 1 1/4″. I tried some rapid fire, at least somewhat rapid. I tried to go with gut and feel and timing. It worked pretty well. Steady was good and really came down to timing the heart beat. Focused real hard on hold, rest, grip, shoulder pressure and such.
Now, if I can those other 8 groups of the 12 groups to do the same! 🙂
No big deal at all checking the adjustment. I make that a habit to do at times. Same as putting a few drops of silicone oil in the breech end of the barrel.
And them are pretty good groups. And definitely practice the fast acquisition shooting. And I know this may sound crazy and people talk about it all the time. Loose the concentration on the heart beat.
Why? If your holding the gun in a way that your heart beat is affecting your shot. Then you need to come up with a different hold.
Remember how we mentioned in the past. Let your gun rest naturally on the target. Your just there to apply the trigger when the reticle is on target. Try something like that the next time you shoot. I know my dad use to say when he was a sniper in the army. There was sometimes all he felt was a pounding heart beat when he shot. Other times it was a little calmer situation. And in both scenarios he had to make the shot count.
The concentration on the heartbeat was not really concentration,.. rather being aware of it, letting it happen, and then,….. go with feel, gut and instinct. Several times I stacked 3 and 4 pellets one after the other. Pressure at all points was light to med. light and very natural. The comb riser is the cat’s meow. Perfect cheek (bone) weld every time. Concentration was really more on hold,… more of a check really. After that, it was relax and go with the gut.
“Something” must be working,… just got to perfect it.
Tomorrow is busy in the AM and it will be smokin’ hot later. I will re-check the striker before heading out next time and get in there if necessary. All for now,….
Ok and I got a busy weekend ahead of me so not sure how much shooting I will get in.
And those are pretty good groups at 70 yards. Of course I like the 1″ groups the best. 🙂
Me too! 🙂 Of course, I hate cutting the results to a 7 of 8, or a 6 of 8. What is really a bummer is to get a 1″,…. followed by a 2 1/2″ group. I am like,…. “HUH?” 🙁
I may end up with a Pelletgage yet. Really, it is like the shot should have been perfect,.. and then bam!,… a flyer. So, so frustrating.
Close but yet so far away. 😉
Yea, the best sub groups were 7 of 8 at 11/16″, 6 of 8 at 1/2″ and 5 of 8 at 1/2″. Both of the 1/2″ groups were not even part of the above mentioned groups.
I am on the “cusp” of something,…. just got to figure out what that is.
I will check back later this afternoon, busy AM.
Yep and it will be something very simple I’m betting that you are overlooking.
And I wanted to mention something else. Remember when I said place the gun in position so it rests naturally on the target. And your basically just along for the ride. Basically to apply the trigger.
Let the gun do what it’s going to do. If it bumps up when it shoots. Let it. Or shakes sideways or whatever. Don’t try to hold it down.
If you get a chance. Search some video’s on YouTube about people shooting center-fire rifles. And pay attention to what the gun does on a bench rest or shooting stick. Trust me they don’t try to hold the gun down.
Find a slow motion video of a 30-06 being bench rested. I think it will tell you a story.
Please d8nt suggest a conversion with Dennis!! I would like him to concentrate on the lovely guns he makes but never seem to have the time to turn them out in quantity. I have tried more than once to buy one of his pistols but never got my name on the list!
I agree wit Matt 61. What I would like to see is an easy to cock reasonably priced SINGLE Stroke Pnuematic rifle. They are disappearing from the scean. The Olympic SSPs are no longer made and even Daisy is pulling them from their line.
Matt61– There is no wrong way to hold a pistol, if it works for the particular shooter. I shoot pistols and English longbows. I have tried many different styles of gripping the pistol (and the bow). Some work better than others (for me). I was privillaged to know Bill Allard. He was a camp Perry pistol shooter, and took first place in his class ( civllian) more than once. Bill cut off the trigger guards on his 1911,s and replaced them with enormous guards. When he gripped a pistol, well, think of a strong man burying an ax deeply into a tree. Come back in 20 years and see how the tree grew around the ax. Few shooters have hands large enough to duplicate his hold. Factor in hand size, strength, pistol design,factory and custom grips and you will see that someone elses technique is only a starting point in developing a grip that works for you. There is no one size fits all when it comes to shooting. Unfortunatly, some people think that what works for them should work for everyone. For example army range instructors who make lefties shoot like righties, or step on a shooters feet to put them in the “correct” position. Ed Ps–spell check seems to have dissapeared from this blog. I hope that i have not mizepelled too many words.
David presented a great idea over here; /blog/2016/07/lets-build-a-multi-pump/#comment-384722
I see a rifle that looks like a double disco, the bottom tube is the springer tube which feeds the upper tube, the reservoir. This would not be a break barrel but a side or under lever, a break barrel would not work due to the tubes below the barrel.
It would work like this, you cock the lever and when the lever is returned to home the piston fires pushing air into the reservoir through a one way valve and repeat until the pressure can go no higher due to the strength of the spring. If the seal is good enough then you could fire the piston to get pressure being held behind the one way valve by the power of the spring piston thus several shots could be made and the piston would move forward to replace the air in the reservoir as the pressure there lowers. A regulator of sorts.
I think that you will be getting a max pressure of about 2000 psi, but more air pressure may be acquired with the price of a very heavy cocking cycle.
This could work and with proper air management could be a powerful air gun, granted the shot count would be low but it could be a self contained PCP without the need for pumps or SCUBA tanks.
Ok, long day at work.
A company in the UK built a regulated air conserving pumper on the Crosman 761xl platform a few years ago.
The quality was a bit dodgy from what I have heard, but it did exist, and shows it can be done, on a small tube gun.
I hunt, but I also recreationally shoot more than I hunt.
Some people play golf, I shoot.
The reason I vote for the mrod platform is its tuneable, it’s light in the Gen 2 form, the larger tube allows for more room for parts, the synthetic stock is easily modded or molds modified to accommodate the new design.
I would like to see a repeater, but it’s not a deal breaker if it isn’t.
But if it uses the Mrod platform, it can go both ways with a singleshot tray, to save cost, use off the shelf pieces.
2 is fine, 3 better.
Ask for more, take what you can get..
Be realistic, big bores are air hogs, pure and simple.
I say .22 caliber, or .177.
Having owned both calibers, and tuning them for energy first, then shot count for plinking,
The .22 seems to be somewhat more efficient in air usage over the .177.
Energy? 20 ftlbs. max.
It’s more than enough for small game with the above calibers, easier to pump, and uses less air per shot than a higher energy.
The larger diameter of the mrod tube should allow for a multi stage pump like the Indy, and independence.
Thereby reducing cocking effort, but increasing the number of pump strokes.
I have seen a small “piggy back” reservoir added to increase the storage volume in some custom guns, possibly there is enough room inside the synthetic Mrod stock, under the main tube.
yes this could be an American version of the FX, the Indy, and independence sell for ~$1800 as of today.
I think it could be done and sold for half that, but that’s something only Dennis can tell us as he knows the production cost involved.
Someone mentioned the millennium pumper.
I have been following it since it was started, and so far, I can find that only 1 rifle has been delivered.
I mentioned the possibility of Dennis building just the tube assembly, I actually mean, the entire center section, assembled in their shop.
You bolt on your Mrod barrel/breech assembly, and trigger group.
4screws on top, 2 on bottom, drop it in the modified stock.
Again, to save money and manufacturing time, use off the shelf parts.
But I do believe in the K.I.S.S. method of doing things if possible.
The mrod, like the disco, were built for reliability, pure and simple.
They have to be because they are in the retail market, in the real world, with different skill levels of users.
The pumper SHOULD be the same, as people of all skill levels will be buying it and using it.
Forget the MSP, there should be a company that is willing to bring back the defunct Webley paradigm to production. I feel that many airgunners will want a medium powered sporter SSP rifle.
A couple of site related notes:
1) The “smiley” faces have changed in appearance
2) The “back to top” button is empty, yet still works when pressed
3) Replies to comments always show in my E-mail mailbox. At least 1, from GF1 did not show up this AM that was made after I shut-down last PM. In fact, I am not sure any from yesterday showed up.
I can still log in, post and reply so all is good. Just thought I would make you aware.
Also, for those that are a bit more computer savvy than myself, Windows 10 appears to have a update ready to install. Is that OK and has anyone done it yet? No issues? The IT guy at my former employer said that it take about 45 minutes, will start up and shut down several times during the process, and,.. that is was only available until the end of the month as a free upgrade. Thanks for any input there.
Pyramyd Air IT people have been working on the blog site to correct some errors. They think they have them fixed mow. Please watch the site and see if the things you mentioned are still happening.
Will do,…. thank you.
Last email notification I had was from Thursday’s article. No notifications since then.
That should now be fixed.
I’ll find out Sunday morning when I turn my computer on again unless my phone gives me a notification before then.
Went through the upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10 thrice. The first time was rather involuntary due to a change in their policy. Instead of cancelling the update when clicking the X or Close button it scheduled me automatically. Fortunately I could postpone the update to a more advantageous time. Relatively painless from my end. Took more than 45 minutes though probably from my outdated hardware. Although they say it will be free until the end of the month with the way these things work they might extend just so they can claim a higher rate of installations.
I did notice that the smileys were larger than usual while reading articles from my phone.
Thank You for the input on the 10. “Thrice”,…. very nice! That is one that one does not hear often at all.
So far no problems encountered for the past three weeks since I updated 2 desktops and a laptop. Hope I don’t jinx it by mentioning no problems so far.
I see the same thing. And I haven’t been getting any email notifications.
Anyway up and getting ready to get my grass cutting done that I usually do on Friday but couldn’t because of other things. Then got to run and get the stuff to BBQ today. Plus do some other stuff.
Hopefully after lunch I’ll be shooting and starting the BBQ.
If you get some shooting in let me know. I made a reply above to you about watching some center-fire rifle video’s to watch the shot cycle of the gun. I think it might help you with your .25 Mrod. Read the reply above and let me know.
Running done, shopping done,…. a real “cooker” outside now. Looking like AM. I will see what I can find on bench rested firearms. It makes sense. I do think however that it is not practical for anything other than bench resting. The M-rod is not half bad shouldered. Elevate it, as in a tree shot, and it gets easier. The pistol grip up front is a huge help on support and very, very ergonomic. Much better than a palm rest or a palm grip. It mimics the rear sniper grip. It is big, I guess, but I find myself wanting it bigger in overall and palm swell.
As far as seeing what it can do, your method would work, and in fact with the rear pistol grip rest, I can do it quite easily. I do like to have at least some human input though for seeing what it can do under more of a hunting situation.
In the AM, I will check the striker and probably Loctite it. (I will let you know if I find movement).
On castle nuts, as on an AR buffer tube,… I am finding that they vary on notch placement. I have several and some will hit all 3 points on a 3 point wrench. But, turn it 90 degrees, and only 2 points will hit. Some, seem to have a slightly bigger OD, thus not allowing the wrench points to engage as deeply. I got 2 new ones, as the stock ones were getting bunged up a bit from a single point spanner. I also got 2 fiber washers that are the same as the face of the new ones. The hope is here that they will compress some and act as a lock washer of sorts. Not sure if any AR shooters have encountered this phenomenon. My M-rod has 2,… 1 from the RAI offset to the receiver,… and 1 from the RAI offset to the buffer tube.
It’s been hot here for 2 weeks now. You want me to tell you what the temperature has been in the shop at work. How about above a 110°. Hot is all I can say.
And remember. Even shoulered the gun is going to move how it wants.
Hwres something. Maybe you need to put some slight forward pressure on your bi-pod legs when your bench resting. It helps the Mrod and Talon SS with the bi-pods.
Good points. I have been REAL good on steady (back) pressure on the pod, as it seems to feel and work best. I have yet to play with forward pod pressure much. To me, it would seem the same,… just keep it steady,…. as it has (one) contact point.
I can see (some) of the point of those awkward looking spring loaded pods,… I think.
It’s all about what your gun likes.
That’s the point I’m trying to make by saying watch center-fire videos.
The guns natural movement is what it’s all about.
Then you slip into the mix.
Shoot the gun and see what it wants. Not what you want.
Got it,…. will try.
And to the other rifle designers on this thread:
I will be the first to admit that I am no rifle designer. But I’d like to suggest something very different for this multi-pumper thread.
Start with the air force edge as the base platform and modify it where it is no longer a PCP but rather is a pump filled rifle.
The edge starts at light at 6 pounds and has a small easy to fill reservoir. It can be mounted with a scope without exceeding your 8 pound limit.
I envision having the tank permanently mounted to the action. And then design a pump action where the pumping lever that can be levered forward from where the tank threads are currently. This lever and pump mechanism is used to fill the reservoir tank.
I envision the rifle being held with the non-shooting hand on the pistol grip while the rifle is held in the shoulder pocket. The shooting hand would sweep the pump handle forward and back to recharge the rifle. In the edge, as in all the air force rifles, the air flow is completely linear which should be some advantage.
As Mr. Gaylord has documented in the past, the performance of the edge benefits from a longer barrel where the same amount of air is being released. The edge has a decent trigger.
And those of you who are better rifle designers than me can identify what additional modifications would be needed to make this “modified edge” shoot .20, .22 or .25 pellets.
That is certainly a different suggestion. And also one I had not thought of.
Unfortunately the platform that has been offered for this project is a Benjamin Marauder, but what you suggest certainly has merit.
You are correct in that the M-rod was and is offered. But, a lot of good ideas, other than an M-rod have been offered as well.
It seems that we have come to a “fork in the road”. A hand pumper, with the storage, pressure and multi-shot capabilities of a PCP. Or,…. a high quality, multi pump, (true) multi shot, that would operate at lower pressures.
Both,… seem to require regulation of some sorts. Weight, also seems to factor in. Compared to 11#,… I would take an 7-8# scoped any day for hauling in the woods.
This has been a good article and one to get us all thinking in a much more focused way.
Yes for sure.
Is it just me or is anyone NOT getting emails concerning responses to their comments?
I forwarded your message to IT. I am on a Mac and am receiving the messages, but Siraniko who is on a Windows platform said the same thing earlier.
Same here on the email notifications.
I didn’t get the one from RidgeRunner from his reply today even.
After Sunday lunch Manila time.
No email notifications still being received by Gmail. Checked by Win 10, Android and Linux Mint no email replies on all systems. Checked by switching browser from Chrome to Firefox. Also checked my spam folder. Fortunately the RSS Aggregator works which is how I know that there are responses to my postings.
They are working on the problem.
Try responding to this (win 7). Will try with win 10 in a few .
This is a try from win 10 . But your response would still have to come back on the w7 computer . Don’t have email on this one .
I’m still using my phone as always and I’m not receiving email notifications from the Pyramyd Air blog.
I been getting emails from other things with no problem at all.
So something is going on with the PA site. I couldn’t even see my order history in my PA account for the last few days.
So it don’t matter what was used to respond . (or what the email is received on ) . It don’t work .
Well that’s the truth.
The red squirrel that was chewing up the suet block will chew no more . He stuck around too long this morning .
Last I saw of him, one of the neighborhood cats was hauling it off . This is the cat that comes running for food every time she hears me shoot . She learned several years ago .
🙂 NICE! Smart cat,…. fat,.. I’ll bet too!
She likes fresh meat . She is also raising two kittens this year . About half grown now .
Won’t eat a starling . I think she can pack away sparrows at about one every 5 minutes . She tries to teach her kittens how to do more than just find the food dish .
🙂 A “finicky” cat,… with a “refined pallet”,…. who would have guessed that about a cat? 😉 I would get worried when a “preferred selection” list, for the day, is tacked to your shooting bench though. If you ever study a cat much,… they are just waiting to “rule the world”. They are just biding their time.
Ain’t it funny how we or should I say and how we and nature learn to adapt.
In the wild you don’t get old by being dumb.
Well good I guess. Misery loves company. 🙂
There seems to be two basic multi pump designs emerging from this weekend’s conversation on this topic.
One is based upon the Discovery / Maximus and would be strictly a multi pump with the possibility of enough of a reservoir that would allow for a “quick” follow up shot. You could name it the Minimus to emphasize you need no other equipment to support your shooting pleasure with this air rifle. I hereby grant to you my permission to use this name free and clear with no expectations of royalties. Your use of such would be reward enough for me. Well, maybe a good discount on one.
The other would be based on the Marauder and would be similar to the FX Independence which would be a multi shot PCP with a built in pump to allow the shooter to top off the reservoir between shots. Effort should be made to keep the retail cost of this air rifle below $1000, however you should not do such at the sacrifice of quality as once it became common knowledge sales would drop off dramatically, even possibly hurting other air rifle sales. Please keep in mind that most who would be buying this air rifle are those who are accustomed to buying air rifles that cost more than that so long as they are of quality.
I thank you for your indulgence in this matter and hope to soon see efforts made to indulge are whims in the near future. Thank you.
With Best Regards,
There could be many variations of both guns made very easily.
Both the lower end Maximus /Discovery/ 1377 Discovery conversion like I made could be made as well as a high end pumper with added features like the Marauder.
Or you could flip it around and the Maximus could be made as a multi-pump to resemble the FX Independence.
Or the Marauder multi-pump to be a pump only gun like the original multi-pump design but with Marauder features.
Ok see this is what happens when a clean piece of paper is available instead of somebody writing things down at a round table meeting and making something they think we want.
I have messed around with different guns for a long time and have used them in all kind of ways. Not just punching paper. When you exsperiance things you learn what works and what don’t.
A good high quality pump gun that resembles a Marauder would be a gun that could take the place of a few guns I have. Especially if it was available in a bigger caliber. It would be the ultimate pesting gun for the work I do when that comes up.
Changing velocity when pesting is very important for the surroundings. Noise is a factor also. I usually have a audience so to speak when I get called out to a location. There is usually a pest that’s dangerous and not happy with the predicament it’s in. People want it gone. A firearm is loud and scary to some people.
So if I can come in with a gun that is quiet. Has the power and projectile mass that I need for the job at hand. And is accurate and have the rotary magazine for a dreaded back up shot it’s a win win situation.
I say a medium high end Marauder based multi-pump needs built on the old school way of pump for velocity and add in the luxury’s of modern design like a shroud and repeater magazine design.
Who’s that field target guy that shoots a pump gun and knows his aim points for pumps and distances. Ron Robinson I believe. Yep that’s what I’m talking about. That’s the pump gun I want. Then upgrade the package to Marauder features.
Mmmmm? “Minimus”? I hope that you are not in marketing. 😉 Royalties? You could retire. Discount? How ’bout free? 1000$? How ’bout 300$?
Many good points were made,… albeit a bit humorous,….. still,… very good points.
🙂 , Chris
Anyone else seeing a Board meeting getting called first thing Monday? Followed, of course,.. by a Board to Manager(s) meeting. This, of course would be followed by the required Manager(s) to Supervisor(s) meeting,… to then followed by the mandatory Supervisor(s) to Associate(s) meeting.
Anyone besides me that hopes that is does (not) work that way? Then again,…. if it does,… let’s all hope that it works in the (right) kind of way.
Oh, I am sorry,…. did I leave out the market execs. that will want to decal Zombies on it in Neon green, toss in some “glowy sights”,… ’cause they are “cool”,.. and,… who really pays attention to the trigger anyway?
Just “Funning”?,… yes. But,… I think you all get the point.
I wonder how they get raises at Crosman.
How do they hire?,….. What kind of air guns ya got? Ever been inside one? What is your best 50, 75 and 100 yard group? Open, fiber optic or scoped? Peep? SSP,MPP, Springer, PCP, C02? What is your thoughts on twist rates? Dove, Pict. or Weaver? Pistol or Rifle?
You might ask this guy, Jesse right over here;
Do use proper LinkedIn etiquette, he looks like someone who may be reading blog.
Very nice. Been awhile since I have been there. Sounds like the right type,…and then some.
Thank you,… Chris ( and yes, proper etiquette required)
Chris — If you follow that link Mike in Atl provided, click on “Crosman Corp”, you can get to a list of 106 Corpsman employees on LinkedIn. Start a messaging campaign and see if you get some responses.
Not a messaging campaign, a dialogue with Jesse, Chris’ first question was how does Crosman Hire? I was talking about just that part Chris could send him a message about his skills and ask if they would need such, Jesse would delete the message or respond.
That is the way LinkedIn works from my understanding. If you just message without offering any value that is a bad thing and may land you in LinkedIn jail.
Jail locks you from some activities for a month, I hear that Microsoft has purchased LinkedIn and the rules may change.
I’m going to say I highly doubt it.
You can’t believe how upper management has a different mind set.
Sorry but played in that ball game to many times.
What’s that saying. Live and learn. They ain’t quite got that far yet from what I seen.
Been there, done that,….too. Real recent in fact.
Yep I bet you did. Sometimes it just ain’t right how it all works.
Got some info that is out of the ordinary. From what I have seen in the past. I wouldn’t of believed it if somebody would of told me this.
I been retrying the Crosman pointed 7.4 grain premier pellets. Found they were accurate in the Brodax. Then tryed them in the 1077 and the 1377/Discovery conversion rifle.
The 1077 was accurate as well with the 7.4 pointed premier’s.
Then here’s where it got interesting. I tryed them in the 1377/Disco rifle. I pumped to 5 pumps like I do the JSB 10.34’s. shot about 5 shots. They grouped just as good as the JSB 10.34’s all the way out to 50 yards.
Now for the surprise. Pumped to 10 pumps. The JSB10.34’s are deadly accurate out to 50 yards in this pump gun I made from Crosman parts to start with. So I pump it to 10 pumps. Load a premier pointed 7.4 in it and shoot. It shoots high and left. Ok I say no big deal. Pump it again to 10 and shoot at the same aim point. Now it’s low and right where the shot lands. So I do this for several shots.
Now the premier pointed pellets are acting like pointed pellets that I remember shooting. Their all over the place.
But wait remember I was getting good groups in the Brodax. Well ok it was only 15 yards with the Brodax. And then the lower velocity 1077. Then the 1377/Discovery conversion pumper at 5 pumps.
Ok how’s this for having a pump gun. I would of never known or even thought that a pointed pellet could be accurate. It wasn’t till I shot them in the Brodax then tryed them in the 1077. But the multi-pump sure showed me real quick what velocity does for a certain type of pellet.
Pump guns are cool is all I can say. To have a gun in your hand that can shoot multiple velocities at will is a big benefit. More than people realise I’m seeing.
Good points and good realizations. When just coming on board, about 1 1/2 years ago, domes were it. Yes, the other “odd” ones,…. points, wad cutters, hollow points,…. all can do well close up. But, what is the point? Does a hollow point really expand? Does a pointed really penetrate better than a dome? The exception would be the wad cutter. That, would be the ideal for close up, clean cut holes. Domes for me at all distances.
Finding the accurate pellet at a lower cost is one thing that’s important. To me anyway.
And I’m going to say this straight out. I know you ain’t tryed the wad cutters or pointed pellets. But everything has a balance.
You can’t imagine what a well placed wadcutter pellet does on a pest with the right velocity for distance and energy or shock in some instances on the pest.
Have you made a pest bird go pop when you hit it yet? When that happens the bird noses over instantly. No wing flap. Nothing. DOA.
Energy placent is just as important as accuracy.
Think back to when you were a kid shooting things with a low powered BB gun.
How many birds, mice and such fell DRT (dead right there) when hit?
The BB dumped all of its available energy to the target, and didn’t bass through.
Then you “upgraded” to a multi pump pellet rifle.
You just knew the birds were in for a surprise when they got hit with the raw power generated by your multi pump “magnum.”
Yet on your first shot, there was a poof of feathers from a solid hit, and a complete pass through, and the bird flew off before dying.
It is all about energy transfer, we as Airgunners don’t have the massive amounts of hydrostatic shock a powder burner has at its disposal.
We have to transfer as much as we can to the target.
Being able to tailor the energy to the size, weight, hardness of the target is key to pesting.
Especially where having a pass through is not an option. ( indoors, or in an urban environment)
This is where 1 multi pump gun can fill several roles.
And where you would either need a PCP styled gun that has multiple power levels, or more than 1 gun to select the power level you need.
I like to say, “you can hunt a mouse with an elephant gun, but it’s not wise to hunt an elephant with a mouse gun.”
I see we are at a crossroads here, some want a multi pump adjustable power as a updated rifle with a dump valve.
And some (me included) see a air conserving pumper that gives maybe 2 shots at a given power level, then pump 4-5 times to bring the reservoir back up to its operating pressure.
I see where the dump valve gun will be lighter, leaner, and easier to build, and less expensive over all compared to the alternate.
Using the Maximus as a base could give way to a steel tubed, steel barreled 392ish multi pumper.
With out the issues of a soldered barrel/tube arrangement, and the soft brass.
I grew up on a Benjamin 312, I could run a tin through it in a day. 10 pumps at a time (I didn’t know any better)
I still like pumpers, but currently don’t own one.
The last one I had was a 2289 I modified out the yin yang.
If I had a Maximus, or a disco I would donate it to the cause.
It all comes down to what Dennis or Tom thinks is most feasible, profitable, and marketable.
If Crosman picks up the idea, it will probably be based on the Maximus/Discovery, with a dump valve
It’s the Occam’s razor to the end result: of a quality, inexpensive, modern multi pump air rifle.
It could go either way.
A pumper that has stored shots has not been the way Crosman has gone in recent pumpers.
From what I have seen if this modern pumper gets built it will be simple but effective. Crosman will use what’s available.
The aftermarket and modders will as usual take it to the next level.
Crosman hasn’t built a pumper recently from the factory that uses stored energy.
I believe if it’s built it will be a multi-pump gun that shoots once for how much you pump it velocity wise. Nothing left for the next shot to add to.
Start talking a multi-pump like a FX Independence and your talking a way different category. More cost involved for one thing. Plus more involved to make.
If we stay on the lines that BB said of a Marauder. I think they will work with what Crosman has and not add to it. But that could happen later also. More options as time goes.
There are other guns that the Marauder had evolved to.
Just back in from some tree trimming with a BD 18V cordless saw that can go 12′. Ughhhh! I look like ‘ol Otho the other day at the range with BB. I have a fan on 1 side and a window a/c on the other.
As for the striker, it was backed off (back) 3/8 of a turn. The last time it was 1/4 of a turn after 80 shots. This last time was 96 shots. So,… I went in. The female part of the threads have like a nylon “patch” about 1/8″ in diameter. This is what would be typically applied to the bolt, or male side, of locking bolt. It did offer some slight resistance. At any rate, it got blue Loctite. Cleaned the threads with solvent and alcohol, of course.
The castle nuts with fiber washers went on the stock. They are longer and have more threads. Plus, appear to be made of harder steel. Very nice and solid with just a 3 point wrench, no hammer tap.
All done and back together. Took about 1/2 hr. Watching “Dinocroc VS Supergator” now,…. real “quality” TV,… yea right. I am going to make up some targets real quick and then out to re-try some 70 yards with the 33.95’s. The fan is going out today for sure! Thank goodness the bench is shaded 24/7.
I’m still not getting email notifications from the blog. So just got through scanning through the whole blog.
But sounds like you should have your gun fixed to hold its setting now.
And yes it’s hot here to. Already 92° out.
I got some stuff to do before I shoot. But I’m probably going to shoot the 1077 outside again today at the spinners and cans I set out in the yard. And yep standing unsupported. I even put the bug buster scope on it. Had no problems at all getting on target fast with both eyes open shooting and moving to the next can or spinner. Reminds me of when I use to shoot my old Winchester 190 semi-auto .22 rimfire rifle as a kid.
You should try your pistol like that outside at some cans. Or go the next step and get a 1077 and try a scope on it like I mentioned. It will help you when you come back to bench resting your other guns. You will be surprised how quick your eyes and brain will adapt to the fast action shooting. Getting use to using the scope like that makes a difference if you do some pesting.
Me too on the mail. Did 12,… 8 shot groups. 70 yds.. Overall, a consistent 1 1/4″ give or take. Nothing really jumped out except for one. Normal hold and forward push on pod. 7 of 8 at 1″ on a horizontal string.
I tried 99% no touch, 2 groups,.. and forward pod push, normal pressure and rapid aim, normal pressure and longer aim time.
Still playin’,…. but things seem to be moving in an overall, “general”,…. right direction! 😉
On bi-pods,.. is there any consensus on whether (forward) or (rearward) pressure is best?
Also, I swing the rifle to my left side, and square the bi-pod to it, when getting up and down from my seat. On occasion, I have forgotten to re-square the bi-pod when actual shooting after bringing it around. I would assume, but have yet to test,….. that it (is important) for the bi-pod to be squared to the target and the rifle???
What are your thoughts on the matter?
I haven’t done any testing but consistency in a hold is always desirable.
Thank you, I will test. 30 degrees one way, 30 the other, and squared up. Being a single point mount, I would think that it might not matter,…. on the other hand, I agree,…. consistency is always best. Hopefully the results will differ enough to show something.
As for push or pull, I will just keep playing with that. Some are spring loaded,.. to pull the legs to the rear, I believe?. That would be mimicking a forward push. Mine also is a pivot type,… but no tilt/cant.
Anything on the IT stuff yet?
No. They really need to see what an older message that did go through looks like, to compare it to what’s coming out now.
Hmm maybe someone can forward you a email notification from a reply if they don’t delete their messages. I always deplete after I reply so I don’t over look a reply. So I have none.
I recant my offer to test bi-pod twist effects on accuracy, Why? From a quick test, at stated here, it is obvious that a twisted pod WILL in fact cant the gun/scope, severely. I know you did a cant test, extreme cases, and noted the results. This is the same,…. with the exception that those using a pivot bi-pod, think that all is steady and good. Get it off a bit,… and you have cant.
Maybe worth an article? Think of how many that are out there.
That’s why I don’t like the rotating mount you have for your bi-pod.
The legs on mine are mounted right off the picatinny rings. The legs will unlatch and rotate forward on mine if I’m not using them. But when they are in the locked position for shooting they stay true to the gun. There is a little play in the legs where you extend the legs for different heights. But it’s very minimal.
But that’s why I use a little forward pressure to take out the little movement that there is. Plus it holds the gun down to help muzzle rise I believe. If I take that play out by holding back I tend to get a vertical group. Forward pressure and I get normal round groups.
And one other thing you could be getting with your bi-pod with the rotating mount. If one leg is more forward on one shot then more true across on the next shot that could be a problem. That will make the gun possibly lean over in a sense. That is called canting. That will give you side to side variation in your group’s.
And think about this. Your trying to repeat your hold. With stationary legs you can lift your gun and move it a little bit at a time to get the gun. In position on the target. Remember you ain’t shooting a machine gun on a mount that allows for any angle of shot you want. They are spraying bullets everywhere. They don’t have to worry about repeating their hold.
So to me I think forward pressure to hold the gun down. And for sure a fixed bi-pod mount. And one that has the least amount of play in the legs is what I would want.
Well, the forward pressure group did produce a horizontal group, so you may have something there. Mine is solid too, with the only play coming from the folding position locks. I do like the 360 swing though. Super nice for fine adjustments. I did away with the adapter and have a Torrington bearing in there. Very smooth and 0 play. We shall see,…..
I think I would want the bi-pod legs to not rotate freely.
Why would you want them to move?
If I’m shooting at something. I move the gun into position. I would think if you leave the legs in on place then rotate the gun to the left to get on that target. When you shoulder the gun it could change the way gun is ipositioned leaning wise. It could make the gun barrel go down and left or up and left. Or it could go the opposite way depending on what way the legs are positioned. When you bring the gun up to your shoulder is when you should see the barrel move in a arch.
You need to watch what the scope does with one leg forward when you shoulder the gun. See if it’s leaned a little to one side or the other.
It probably ain’t leaning but I would check again.
Just checked,… and yes,… if the gun is not level,…. turning the pod will cant the gun (very noticeably). If level, nothing occurs. Then you have everything in between.
In your case, if you move/swing the gun left or right, and do not move the feet, you have now induced an unnatural pressure/twist into the stock.
I will have to look into this more.
I mentioned it above to you.
I do lift my guns each time I position the gun on target. I never leave the gun resting on the bi-pod legs and twist the legs or rotate the gun I should say to get on target. I make little lifts and moves until the reticle rest naturally on the target. And that is with the slight forward pressure applied. And always with the gun shouldered. When I complete that process then I aim and shoot.
I did read that. At 70 yards, let’s say, if my reticle is off, say 1″,… I would be inclined to apply a little side pressure. I am not sure that is good. I am also not sure that what I am doing is the best either. This could be the “issue” all along?
I will look into “locking it down”.
I think so. That’s what I tryed to explain to you in the past about canting.
That’s the whole object of using a bi-pod is to reduce variation in your hold.
You want your bi-pod solid.
I have been thinking of your scope mounted bipod. I see that the mount is attached just forward of the front scope ring. I see that you have high mounts to allow the large objective bell. But what did you use to attach it to the scope and what sort of bipod is it?
Here is the bi-pod I used.
The scope rings are Picatinny/Weaver style. They were 30 mm with a spacer that reduces it down to fit a 1″ scope tube.
I cut them in half to make 4 of them. Then I cut the clamping lug off that would normally clamp the ring to the Picatinny/Weaver rail on the gun. They are called tri-mounts.
I believe I got them through Optics Planet I will see if I can find them and post the link in a minute.
And you don’t have to do all the cutting like I did. You just have to turn the ring up side down. I did all the cutting and repainted them black so they looked original equipment.
I’ll post in a minute if I find them or not.
Ahh…Now I see. I don’t think anybody has anything like that locally. May have to do some creative dealing with a relative over there. Either that or be very creative while looking at some bipods that are available. Ordering direct from PyramydAir will be a deal breaker as that besides a shipping problem there is the tax problem which multiplies the cost up to three times the original.
Here is the ring I used.
It’s just a image. So you will have to find where to get it.
But you would mount it up side down and use the two side lugs for the Stoeger bi-pod legs.
Oh and have the legs mounted so they swing forward when not shooting and the gun is in storage.
The legs are to the side of the barrel and up above the barrel a little also.
I just got home from being out all weekend, so I hope this is not a duplicate.
I pulled up the Crosman Custom Shop and configured a 1322 with an 18″ barrel, skeleton stock, long steel breach, and a wide trigger shoe but no optics. The price came out to $112 plus shipping.
Will a 1322 in this configuration produce produce 600 fps with a 15 grain pellet or 550 fps with a 18 grain pellet? PA lists the stock 1322 with the 10″ barrel at 460 fps.
If yes, then add a lightweight scope such as a bug buster and you have a carbine plinker/hunter that will produce about 12 fpe and will not be hard to pump if my modded 1377 is any example (it’s configured like the hypothical 1322 but not from the CCS). If you don’t believe that a 12 fpe gun can’t be an effective gun for small game, then I suggest that you watch some of the British videos.
If not, how hard/expensive would it be to add a longer pump tube to increase the fps/fpe?
And thank of all the mods already available for the 13xx platform.
Are we trying to reinvent the wheel?
PS: Crosman, please offer in a 20 cal for all of us old Sheridan fans. I know I would pay a little extra for a 20 and I believe a lot of ‘Dan would as well. And maybe 25 for all the fans of that caliber.
Maybe so on reinventing the wheel on a base multi-pump like you described.
But what about one based on the Marauder platform that BB based this blog on.
I say that would be reinventing the Marauder into a multi-pump.
Crosman kind of filled a void by making the 1322/77 into a rifle on the lower end of the price range and options by adding it to the custom shop. And yep I built many a 1322/77 pumpers and configured them like what you mentioned. And yes I have put longer .177 and .22 caliber Discovery barrels on them. Cool guns for sure. But I do wish they would offer a wood stock like how I did mine I have now with a Discovery stock and barrel and breech and trigger assembly. That would be the low end pumper I would like to see also.
But the Marauder based multi-pump is what I would really like to see. And yes shrouded, yes a repeater with a optional single shot tray. And only one shot for how many pumps you choose so the velocity can be controlled. Oh and for sure the Marauder rifle trigger assembly.
That’s the higher end multi-pump that I would really like to see. And also can’t forget to make it in .25 caliber. And maybe even a big bore in .30 caliber and up. That would be a exciting gun to me.
If you read the paragraph with the bold marauder heading, he says he doesn’t think we really want the mrod turned in to a pumper.
He says we can’t express what we want.
Myself, I would like to see an American version of the FX.
But the most cost efficient, and easiest method to build one would be to use a Maximus/Discovery, using a valve that dumps all of its air on 1 shot.
You would not have to change the barrel, breach, bolt, or trigger mechanism from the Maximus/discovery.
That’s a huge savings.
After reading through the blog again. I think we have expressed what we want.
Got it. I was thinking lower end and looking for something similar as far as power to my old ‘Dan I grew up with. I now have two working ‘Dans and my original that I was given at age 10 or 11 that needs a major overhaul (Winter project, I hope). I scoped the last one; it is very accurate with JSB 20 cal pellets. It has adequate power for my needs. I don’t find pumping an issue and I’ll normally shoot at least 5 groups of 10 shots each at 5 pumps per shot.
I would like to see the Marauder pumper that you describe but I fear that it will be out of my price range.
It won’t be cheap. If that one was made. But how many others would there be like it.
I could only imagine if I was a kid and my dad just so happened to get me one for Christmas. I remember when I was the first kid on the block to get my Benji 392. All my buddies wanted to shoot it. It wasn’t like our little 760 and Daisy pumpers we all had. It made some power and it was the big .22 caliber.
Could you imagine a kid in the neighborhood getting a pumper based on a Marauder and in a big .25 caliber.
And oh but you might say a kid wouldn’t be a able to pump it. I say wrong. That Benj 392 was harder to pump than the little 760 or Daisy. But we found a way to pump it. Heck we had the ultimate air gun in our hands and we was going to shoot it. No matter what that Benji was getting shot. Well same for this Marauder based multi-pump. There will be all kinds of talk if it’s built. I do believe it will be the talk of the town after people get it and start talking about what it will do. It will bring pumpers back into the ballgame.
So the pumper will be a single shot with multiple pumps controlling the amount of power.
The valve designed should allow up to .25 caliber using 15 pumps to generate 20 fpe although for the most part 5 pumps to shoot a .22 at 12 fpe would probably be the everyday use.
Does that sound reasonable?
Sounds reasonable. Now Crosman needs to build the Marauder based multi-pump in different calibers so we can see.
Hey,… you all are going to laugh at this,……
Looking through the local weekly mailer, ALDI’s, a discount grocery,…. has “shower chairs” on sale for 25$. All 4 legs easily adjust from 15″-22″. This would perfect for an outdoor shooting bench seat. Fit different size people. Fit different bench heights. The back looks low, which would be good for lower back support.
I bring this up only for the benefit of air gunners on this site,…. not that any of us here know what a shower chair actually is, seeing as how we are all just a bunch of young “bucks”. 😉
I will be looking into this.
Different. But if it works great. I need to check my Aldi’s add now. 🙂
My three suggestions for a quality multi pump are:
1) Make it with a quality, forward scope mount so you can mount a red dot or long eye relief scope that will allow you to grip the receiver to gain maximum leverage when pumping.
2) Do whatever it takes to quiet the noise of the pumping mechanism. The noise of pumping the gun is far louder than the report of the shot.
3) Make it accurate. A quality free floated barrel and decent trigger are essential to this.
The Crosman MK177 comes very close to these requirements, but I would guess most serious air gunners would prefer a more traditional looking design instead of a modern sporting rifle clone.
I would really be interested in something like this. I like the idea of having to “charge it up”, maybe anywhere from 10 to 20 pumps to attain a certain pressure, then being able to get 2 or 3 shots without significant power drop before topping it off with a few pumps — maybe 3 to 5. I would think it would be easy enough to make something like this with a power adjustment as well, so you could have “low – med – high” power and get more shots for plinking while having higher power for hunting / pest control.
I could also see the value of a “new and improved” Sheridan / Benjamin -type, where you could put in anywhere from 3 to 8 or 10 pumps to vary the power, but I would be more interested in something like the above.
Jim, they have a Benjamin ACP MkII (Custom) that has something like you are talking about on it. It has a “dual” power trigger sear. First click is 500 fps, the second is 680 or so fps. Neat like a Beeman P1 mag pistol in that you get two power levels .
Thanks Doc! I just looked up that Benjamin. Looks pretty cool. Might have to consider that one.
B.B., late post on this one, but I wonder if the Webley Alecto wasn’t close to being what I would consider a good platform for the perfect pump. Just make it into a rifle. Three pumps, three levels of power (and accurate to boot). For me, you wouldn’t even need to up the power. Would probably get a nice little boost with just the rifle barrel. Just don’t make the barrel too long. Maybe say 16 or 18 inches max. Just some thoughts. I can’t seem to get this multi pump blog out of my head…
That’s a wonderful idea. I wonder why airgun companies can’t see it?
Makes a lot of sense. I don’t have a compressor, just a hand pump, and I can’t see lugging it in the field. Repeaters are overrated for hunting, as you seldom get a second shot- at least a carefully aimed one.
I like the Marauder, and I’ve owned some very high-dollar PCPs. You don’t need much tuning in a pump-up as you generally dump the whole reservoir on every shot, but it might be nice to have a few adjustments for tuning for accuracy, like hammer spring preload and maximum pressure, via a blow-off.
Maybe Crosman could look at what’s been done with customized Sheridens and Benjamins. A long cocking arm, strengthened linkages, etc. I had a “Steroid Benjamin” from Mac1 for a week of testing once and I was impressed- a 30 ft-lb gun that was lighter than any of my spring guns. Just make it a 2-3 pump max gun, and not 20 pumps.
I’ll take an affordable FX Independence. PLEASE. I’ll buy several. Couldn’t imagine a better idea or next move from several makers of air guns. Personally I also wouldn’t mind dealing with a bit more weight and size in exchange for larger reservoir and more possibilities in power ranges and calibers. Multi pump also offered in .25&.30 sign me up.
Welcome to the blog.
Single shot light and effective hunter…
Me I really like the 50 fpe for 1 shot and then about 15-20 pumps to refill… basicly Bobs MP… He also made his Grouse gun an acp… less pumping and less power but still a multi shot…
the more power you want the more or harder you pump that is Physics… there was the Ana Quigly and the Titan pumpers also… got to shoot a Titan back when they came out. if I remember they where about 300$…
Heck just Modding a 2100b(.3″ extended valve nose) into a 13xx got me almost 18 fpe on 17 pumps as a .22.. and that is still with a pump cup..
Point is nope it would not be hard to build a quality accurate 20-25 fpe pumper… I think it is a matter of return on investment, liability, and the possibility of it cutting into Disco/Maximus sales that Keeps it from happening…
Welcome to the blog.
I like multi-pump rifles in general and in concept. But there is nothing around currently I would “cherish”. Crosman 2100 – functional, plastic, cheap. Benjamin 392 – STILL no proper scope mount, needs a metal trigger. Now PCP’s too heavy and none too “affordable”. The Marauder is simply heavy – some say only buy the .25 with Green Mountain barrel, some .177’s and .22’s (my choice) are said to be not so accurate. UK PCP’s are heavy and over styled. So let’s get nice $250 multi-pumper. More reasonable pump strokes rather than a few requiring herculean effort.
Welcome to the blog.
If crosman make a 22 marauder multi pump and it still has sling and those magazines I will try and be the first to buy one I live self contained guns I have already started saving money since I have seen tom Gaylor blogs I am ready for it so crosman bring it on my email firstname.lastname@example.org let me know how can I pre order one
I want one 22 cal
Welcome to the blog.
The only change’s I would luv to see the marauder is the multi pump and the choice of a scope or opened sight like the sights on the discovery but I will put the 4-16×40 center point on the one I purchase these are the only change’s Leave the shrouded barrel- magazine-rifle sling mounts
I’m nowhere near the level of most of you airgun experts (humbly so), but I must admit, I LOVE all of my Crosman/Benjamin multi-pump pneumatics, especially my M4-177 & my MK-177. I think we all know the foundation for those two air rifles (760 Pumpmaster/Classic, etc.). Personally, I’m ok with plastic/composite fore-stocks, grips, butt-stocks, etc., if it helps keep the weight down. I’m a sucker for the “tactical”/”military” look & feel. I especially like the fact that both the M4 & MK come with iron sights (open sights), & weaver/picatinny rails for optics/accessories. I love the added adjustability of a collapsible butt-stock. I have big hands & a long “length-of-pull”. I kind of like the “single shot” feature. I grew up on it. I’ve come to love it. It really helps you to take a little time & “make every shot count”. I like the 5-shot clip that the M4 & MK use, although I would’ve really liked an 8-shot clip! It wouldn’t have been too long to manage, at all. Better barrels (Lothar Walther?), slightly longer barrels (20″-24″), a little more power (700-800fps w/.177 lead pellets) after 10-12 pumps shouldn’t be out of the question (or is it?). That’s all I got. Just my humble opinion. “If you make it, I will buy two…” Safe Shooting!
Welcome to the blog.
Thank you, sir. I hope to see you at the upcoming Texas Airgun Show, later this month…
Please introduce yourself. 😉
Put me on the list for a quality multi-pump!
I like the idea of the pumper being based on the Discovery or Maximus platform, with a shrouded barrel. I would be open to single, or multi-shot. Keep it light weight, give it decent sights and a quality breech with dovetail mounts. If it could shoot .22 lead pellets at 650+fps after 5-10 pumps, I would be on the pre-order list as soon as it was announced. Crosman, PayPal is ready when you are!
Regarding appearance: I never could understand the club like forend on the Sheridan Streaks and the Benjamin MSP’s.
If a full length stock is desired, why not taper to a Schnabel forend? The hand filling grip for pumping is not needed at the muzzle, only at the end of the pump lever.
I have a modified (by Scott Blair)Streak with the stock shortened, (and the gap between the two stock pieces angled forward) and the bit of metal lever which is exposed looks better to me than a heavy looking chunk of wood near the muzzle.
With an extended lever ( ala Timmy Mac ) which moves the grip about 3 inches further from the pivot, pumping effort should be minimized, and the shorter forend gives a more balanced look.
IMO, there is an esthetically valid reason why rifle stocks almost always taper near the muzzle, …but the designers of these older models seem to value hiding the pumping lever more.
To me, the exposed portion of the lever is no more unsightly than a tubular magazine below the barrel, etc., but the massive forestock looks ungainly.
I like the ideal of the discovery or the maximum as a multi pump I would still luv to have it with the 10 shot magazine I have sent my 1989 Benjamin 392 that had as a kid of to Mr Tim to get the steriod treatment and this my birthday present to my self my birthday was on 4 of July and I am happy to have the extra power jus waiting until he send it back so I can set it up early before our hunting season here in Mississippi
Hey guys, the rifle you are talking about was designed and built in 2012 by the one and only… Bob Sterne
“http://airgunhome.com/agforum/viewtopic.php?t=8941&highlight=discovery+pumper”. And is in production
Welcome to the blog.
Thanks for the info on Bob Sterne. I’d say he is a boutique builder.
By production I’m taking about multiple thousands of units each year and national advertising and support. He probably makes a fine rifle. Nobody knows about it though.
One thing missed here is the possibility of making a multi-pump with a multi-stage compression, like a pcp floor pump. Not only will you get higher pressures it will reduce the effort and mechanical strain on the mechanism.
Welcome to the blog.
Thanks for the info I am about to look into it now and if I like what I see I am going to purchase one
I look into it I saw review but nothing on what we are talking about hope crosman does one because I would luv to have one
First let me say that I agree with most of what the main article says.
To be realistic, if you want a good high end multi-pump rifle, start with the Crosman Legacy 1000 power plant, that is the Crosman 2100 power plant with a metal piston and a few better seals, add to that a better and adjustable trigger group, a steel receiver (not pot metal), a 24 inch full size Crosman barrel (no more soda straw), durable Resin stocks (not wood and not plastic), balance the rifle just behind the trigger, and add a longer pump stroke, at least equivalent to the Crosman 140, with an adjustable steel piston. Add to all that an availability of all calibers from .177 through .20 and .22 on up to .25 caliber.
That would make for a good modern high end pumper that is worth spending some money on. We all know how to recrown and lap the Crosman barrels that need it, this is even an issue with the M-ROD. If a rifle like that were actually made it would likely catch those that prefer pumpers by storm.
And that would definitely not be to much to ask. As that would be something that Crosman is already mostly tooled for, so it would take minimal R&D costs, and minimal retooling. The end result would be the hardest shooting multi-pump rifle Crosman has ever made, with the features of a high end full dump pumper for the next generation of megnum Pump Rifles.