by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Remington’s model 33 single shot .22 was ,made in the 1930s.
This report covers:
- The cobbler’s children have no shoes!
- Barn gun
- The question
- Remington 33
- Why not an airgun?
- CB caps are quiet…
- … and not that powerful
- Super Colibri
Hey there, BB — you’re talking about a firearm in an airgun blog?
Sure am! I do it from time to time to attract new readers like Kevin, who joined us years ago from my comments about Roy Weatherby. The shooting sports is full of guys who just like to shoot, and I lure them in with these occasional excursions off the beaten path. And, there is a very strong tie-in to airguns in today’s report, as you will discover. Let’s go!
The cobbler’s children have no shoes!
It all started when a guy at my church needed something to kill a bobcat that was raiding his chicken coop! I immediately suggested an airgun — my “go to” Talon SS. But, when I located it, there was no scope mounted! Oh, no! I found a scope and mounted it quickly and then discovered that my tackdriver air rifle now puts five pellets into one inch at 25 yards. That’s terrible for this rifle. Looking down the bore told me the reason — dirty barrel! That will be the subject of an upcoming blog.
On with the story. So I grabbed my .25 caliber Marauder. ONCE AGAIN — NO SCOPE!!! I mounted a scope and sighted it in. By this time two days had passed and the guy had already shot the cat with a 12-gauge loaded with buckshot.
So I’m sitting on my toadstool, drinking ambrosia and pondering the meaning of life when it dawns on me — what this guy really needs is a single-shot .22 rimfire he can keep in his chicken coop! He needs a barn gun.
He is also overrun with rats, which are attracted to chickens, and possums that are likewise. He has a .22 but it’s a cheap 10-shot semiautomatic that doesn’t fire half the time. So I gave him an old single shot I had, and set him up with a box of Aguila Colibri CB caps. They have the power to turn a .22 rimfire into something that very much resembles a pleasant airgun.
Then came my epiphany. I don’t have a “go-to” .22 I can grab for all my own little emergencies. I can give them away, but what happens when I need one? I have .22 rifles out the wazoo, but they are either scoped or they are target rifles or they are repeaters that cannot easily be loaded with a single CB cap. But, all is not lost.
I rummage around my gun closet and find my old Remington model 33 single shot. I bought it for $75 at a gun show years ago. It’s so rusty you need a tetanus shot just to hold it. I bought it to shoot up the .22 rounds I pick up off the ground at my range. I always have hundreds on hand and, though I have shot several hundred over the years, somehow I never get around to shooting them all. But I have the gun, if I ever get the time!
I pick up .22 rounds that have fallen to the ground at the range. I have several hundred at any time.
Would this old beater shoot CB caps? You long time readers may remember back in 2011 I wrote a 6-part report on the subject titled, Are CB caps as good and accurate as pellets?. While it was not exhaustive, I did discover a few things, such as the fact that CB caps do have gunpowder in them, despite what you may have heard. People think they run on priming compound, alone, and that may have been true at one time, but not today — at least not the ones I have taken apart. But that’s not the question before us.
Various CB caps. From the left — CCI CB short, CCI CB long, RWS CB cap, RWS BB cap, Aguila Super Colibri, Aguila Colibri.
Despite what you may have heard, CB caps do have gunpowder inside. At the top is a CCI CB Long pulled apart. Below is a CCI Green Tag long rifle cartridge. Pulling bullets from rimfire cartridges is dangerous — don’t try this at home!
The question is — are CB caps any good in my junker Remington model 33? In other words, can I count on them the same as I can count on several of my airguns? I told Matt, the guy with the bobcat problem, that he needs a barn gun. That’s a reliable .22 he can leave in the chicken coop to use when he needs it. Most folks who have kept critters are familiar with the barn gun concept. But, is this Remington 33 my barn gun?
The Remington model 33 is a youth rifle. It’s 41-3/4-inches long with a 24-inch barrel. The pull is 13-1/2-Inches. the rifle weighs 4.5 lbs. and though it may look large in the picture, you can wrap your hand around the entire stock and barreled action. It’s a light handy weapon.
The trigger is as simple as the latch on an outhouse door. I doubt there are more than 25 parts in the entire gun, though because of the timeframe when it was made, the stock is American black walnut.
The barrel looks like 20 miles of rough road inside. If I saw one like it for sale I would pass. I only bought this one to shoot up junk rounds that I pick up off the ground. So — is my 33 accurate?
You know me and accuracy. Normally I would bench the gun and shoot at paper 10 times, then measure the group down to the thousandth of an inch. Not this time. Barn guns aren’t tested that way. You test barn guns by shooting them at things and seeing if you can hit them. And that’s what I did.
I went out to Otho’s house out in the country and invited him to shoot with me. I needed a handy target and Codeuce’s spinner was available, so that was what we used. Even though the cartridge’s power is very low, the bullets spun the spinners easily. That’s the benefit of Codeuce’s spinner over all others.
And, it worked. Otho dragged out an old Mossberg single shot that he could not remember ever testing and I had my trusty model 33. The Mossberg was a real can of worms — nothing worked as it should. To add insult to injury it has an automatic safety that goes on every time it’s cocked! First time for Otho, and he let me know how unhappy he was. Being an airgunner, I am used to such travesties.
On the other hand, my Remington is about as complex as an anvil. Heck — my rifle doesn’t even cock when the bolt is worked. After loading a cartridge you have to pull back the cocking knob to cock the gun.
Otho and I found ourselves entranced by the fun of shooting shot after shot at the spinners. There is something relaxing about a single shot .22 caliber bolt action rifle. It’s like eating peanuts — you don’t want to stop!
Why not an airgun?
Why did I recommend CB caps in a firearm to Matt and not an airgun? Well, my initial reaction was to recommend an airgun, but while addressing the problems I mentioned, I had time to think about it. Matt wants a gun to kill pests in his chicken coop. Sure, he likes to shoot like most of us, but he shows no signs of becoming an airgunner. Each airgun I would recommend as a barn gun for him required some training up front. The .22 rimfire required nothing — he already owned one, though it wasn’t right for what he wanted to do. It was an unreliable semiautomatic when what he needed is a dirt-simple single shot he could pick up and use. A guy writing a grocery list doesn’t need a dissertation on how pencils are made!
CB caps are quiet…
I picked the Aguila Colibri CB cap for Matt because it is extremely quiet. It’s even quieter than a silenced .22 shooting subsonic rounds. In fact, after he shot it the first time he turned to me an said, “That’s it?” The same thing happened when I shot with Otho. He fired a shot that I heard hit the target and he said, “Did it fire? I didn’t hear anything.” Now, Otho and I are both old enough that our hearing isn’t exactly factory-fresh, but Matt is a young pup in his mid-30s.
…and not that powerful
According to my data from 2011, Colibris deliver their 20-grain bullet at an average 391 f.p.s., which is 6.79 foot-pounds at the muzzle. That’s Diana model 27 territory!
There is also a Super Colibri cartridge. It’s the same size (long rifle case and pointed 20-grain bullet) but it’s much louder than the Colibri and produced 16.8 foot pounds when I tested it back in 2011. In my opinion you lose the primary benefit of the cartridge, which is pellet-gun performance in a .22 rimfire rifle.
Just have to know!
Well, the cat’s out of the bag now! I have to go on and test this rifle and cartridge all the way. It’s a tough job but someone has to do it — right?
So, you have been thinking about getting an airgun but you don’t know which one to get. If you own a .22 rifle, you can use these CB caps to get started . Your investment is low and you won’t disturb the neighbors. In my 2011 test I showed that CB caps can be pretty accurate out to 25 yards, or so. That’s all you need for a chicken coop, basement or attic.
As for the power and accuracy of my Remington 33, well, that’s coming!
240 thoughts on “Remington model 33 single shot rimfire: Part 1”
Pacific time. I get the first post.
That’s the first .22 rifle I learned to shoot. There was something special about its simplicity and cocking the hammer was the safety. It would easily shoot the heads of sparrows with open sights that had a nice fine bead up front. I’d buy another if I found one.
I have so much to say about today’s topic I can’t even put it all to words right now. But I love this topic.
I will just say this for now and definitely more over the weekend.
But I routinely shoot my Savage 93 with the CCI 710 fps 40 grain long rifles. And just to mention they even cycle in my old Winchester 190 I got as a kid for my 10th birthday. First I’ll say is they pretty well match the trajectory of my .25 Marauder I had shooting JSB 33.95’s.
And I have other .22 long rifle bullets that I’ll mention later. Some are not as low powered as the CCI’s I just mentioned but they are sub Sonic. Which does make them reasonably quiet too.
But got to go. I’m betting there’s going to be some interesting comments this weekend. Can’t wait to read them.
How fast are Winchester 22 Zs? They are quieter than a lot high power air rifles.
About fifteen years back, a rabid skunk appeared one afternoon in the creek greenbelt behind my suburban Dallas home. My CZ634 air rifle did not put it away easily, and my brother suggested .22 CB rounds would be good if it happened again (I had also seen coyotes with housecats in their jaws). He even loaned me his sweet Marlin 39A. Its long barrel makes it quieter than typical .22, and with lever action – reliable even with the low power rounds. But after shooting groups with several types of CB, I was unable to get anywhere near the accuracy of my .177 springer. At the range, the rifle was Annie Oakley shooting Mini-mags. I attributed this to the consistency of the 22 loads. Even the new (at that time) CCI “Quiet-22” did not group well. Might be good enough in a chicken coop, but I was disappointed with the results from this fine rifle.
Another BB swifty to remember: “so rusty you need a tetanus shot just to hold it” 🙂
I have a picture of me at three years old holding my Iver and Johnson Mark X. One day my grandson will own it.
At the fire arm ranges that I have been too(indoor 50 foot target ranges) it is considered very bad form to leave empty cartridge cases in your lane. I can not believe that unspent rounds are left on the ground. “Houston, we have a problem”….
That comment reminded me of one of my favorite B.B.ism’s,” wanna see an old man do a squat thrust drop a dime on the ground”. Or something to that effect. The regiment has voted to repair, sir.
Inform the men that we will be taking a collection for the repair.
To anyone who would also like to enjoy the addictive fun of shooting spinners with whatever lower power gun you might choose, Airgun1 spinners (coduece) are finally available at Airgun-1.Com. Thanks B.B. for the timely topic and allowing the mention!
Hey Coduece congrats on getting your target business started!
I have a question about the horizontal spinner, with just two arms/targets on that spinner is it not possible for for the spinner to stop spinning pointing inline with the shooter? I dont see any sort of device to help it re-center to the targets so they are squarely facing the shooter like how the vertical spinner has a heaver target on one end to allow it to settle to the bottom which squares it back to the shooter. Wouldn’t a three or four arm horizontal spinner grant you a shot at a target regardless of the angle it stopped spinning?
Thanks for your question, the horizontal spinner is mounted on a slightly inclined plane and by having one target a little heavier it will always present to the shooter, as far as I know it’s the only horizontal spinner that works this way.
Ok, that makes sense. I hadn’t noticed slight tilt to the bearing and post.
Thanks for the info.
To get a little more detailed, when the FSH target is mounted horizontally all the counter weights are removed from behind the smaller target. Because the bearing is mounted horizontally there is more friction present and you need a greater difference in weight to get the targets to present to the shooter. When mounted to a vertical surface the bearing orientation is more optimal and the targets can be weighted more closely providing the valence that give the great spin action. So they’re kind of a thinking mans target, just like airguns are a thinking mans gun.
Have just placed my order. Looking forward to more addictive fun.
Fred formerly of the DPRONJ now in GA
I hope you will post a long comment about your assessment of this target. I had a hard time finding the right words.
I will be delighted to share my thoughts with the blog after trying out the spinner.
Thank you, and so glad you have found a friendlier place to call home! And I certainly hope you enjoy your soon to be arriving target!
I’ll be doing some early season crappie fishing in mid March. I take a week long trip with some friends I worked with for 30 plus years. You ever go out on Westpoint lake?
Good for you on the spinners. 🙂
Thank you, it’s been very busy round here.
Busy is good in this case. 🙂
We shall see.
Congratulations on the “launch” and wishing you all of the very best in success. Chris
Thank you, the work has just begun.
I visited the site. Looks good and you are off to a nice start. I do not have any spinners, so yours may just be the first. (The final product presents very nice from the pictures). I saved the site and may hit you up direct,.. that way you can pocket 100% and not have to pay any processing fees.
For anyone looking to get there,.. use the typical www. in addition to the address given. It got me there 1st try.
Congrats on your new business. I’ve been following here and thought that I understood that you MIGHT market these targets, but apparently you had your mind made up and was already moving forward. I visited your website and found that the zoom function on the SFV Target is out by 90 degrees when you roll over the image. Thought you might want to address that.
Thanks for letting me know about the issue, I’m going to address that with I.T. And thanks for your positive comments, like they say the hardest part is getting started, I’m glad to be through that part (mostly).
Will these spinners stand up to a .22 at around 30 ft lb?
Otho and I shot the low-powered spinners with 16 ft lbs. today and did no damage. We were 20 feet away.
I have recommended 20 ftlbs or less impact energy mostly because I think any more than that and conventional spinner targets would work fine. I really had guns like hw50’s, hw30’s, tx200,2240’s, etc, in mind when I developed the Free Spin Targets. That being said my recommendation is probably conservative the targets are built very well and really it’s just a matter of adjusting your distance to the target to decrease the impact energy. I shoot these targets at 25 to 50 yards with a .22 Marauder and various weights of pellets with over 1000 shots and no problems.
BB and Coduece
OK thanks. I’m thinking about what to shoot at with the .22 I have on order.
What .22 did you order?
Oh forgot. You told me the other day.
The Daystate Wolverine.
I also ordered one of your spinners good luck on your venture.
Thank you, I hope you find them enjoyable to shoot.
If your friend keeps the gun in the chicken coop he should also keep an oiled ran and wipe it down frequently.
Chicken poop is very corrosive. If the litter isn’t changed frequently the ammonia can become overpowering and will corrode the metal in short order.
The “coop” is part of a larger building. He would keep it in his office, where it hopefully wouldn’t get pooped on.
Unless it has changed, there is one CB that only uses the primer. Its the Colibri CB caps. The Super Colibri does have a powder charge.
Just commenting here since you brought up the Colibri CB caps. I do not get very good accuracy with them. But the Super Colibri are pretty good.
My favorite Colibri’s are the 950fps 60 grain Sub Sonic sniper rounds. I have very good luck with those out to a hundred yards and farther actually out of my Savage 93.
I just bought two boxes of Colibri CB caps 4 weeks ago and the box still says they are primer only ( Eley primers).
This report made me want to shoot some over my chronograph in my basement so I could report the results here, but the ChiCom bolt action( I can never remember the model # ) did not strike the primer hard enough to detonate. I shot half a box out of my Browning 22 BLR a few weeks ago and they fired fine although they are so quiet that the empty casing was the only way I knew they fired. I couldn’t do any shooting for accuracy on that day with a low velocity cartridge of any kind because of the wind, so that will come later. I think I’ll load these and shoot the BLR over my chronograph tommorrow.
I have a “Barn Gun” that I bought long ago at a local gun shop. Its a Winchester 1897 12 ga. The outside sure looks it but the insides are clean. It works every time. 🙂
The 1897 is my favorite shotgun, they fit me like a glove.
And I bet you hit every time.
Saw the picture of the Remington 33 and my first thought was “NICE – looks like a fast shooter”.
Always loved the .22 rimfire. By comparison to our pellet rifles we considered the .22 to be a high-power, long range rifle and respected it as such and still do. In spite of it’s lack of recoil and quiet report (relative to other powder burners) it still is a cartridge not to be taken lightly. In skilled hands, with proper shot placement a .22 rimfire can easily put down a whitetail deer.
My .22 is a Belgium made Browning T-Bolt that I have had for 40+ years – light weight, excellent balance and accurate. I’ve noticed that the T-bolt is back in production, its definitely one to consider if you are in the market for a .22.
I have a variety of low velocity and sub-sonic ammunition for the .22 and most of them have a powder charge. The exception being the RWS BB-Caps and CB-Caps. I just confirmed (pulled the bullet) that the RWS 6mm Spitzkugein CB-Caps have no powder. These CBs are easy to recognize because the case is copper and has an acorn on the bottom.
Looking forward to the rest of this series.
Happy Friday all!
Thanks for the update on the RWS CB cap. That’s good to know.
Your T-bolt is free from the dreaded salt stock issue?
Never heard of the salt stock issue. The stock is walnut with real checkeringn on the forearm and grip.
Haven’t seen anything unusual, would you please describe the problem.
The early T-bolt stocks were fast-cured in salt water then dried. Many of them rusted the guns unintentionally.
All is OK then.
Most airgunners trace their shooting roots to a BB gun or if they were lucky, a pellet gun.
My first gun was a rimfire. That gun went everywhere with me. Later in life I learned about the similarities between airguns and rimfires starting with their infamous pickiness in they type of ammo each prefer for decent accuracy.
The difference of rimfire ammo, as outlined today, shows how versatile they can be. Lets not overlook 22 LR birdshot rounds as a good choice for shooting rats in and around barns and chicken coops.
Yep definitely on the bird shot in and around the barn. I shot that out of my semi-auto Winchester 190 believe it or not. Never had no mis-loads either. Would cycle fine every shot.
The only feed problems I ever had with that gun was with shorts. It seemed they were too short and would feed nose up in the breech. They would always be pitched nose up above the barrel bore then stop the action. Easy to eject out. But learned quick that wasn’t the round for my 190.
Wow, I have a model 33, that was my Uncle’s boat gun. It was the first gun I refinished. The saltwater had taken its toll. Mine is not too accurate the barrel is rusted for the last one inch or so. At 20 yards it will still hit a can 9 out of 10. Lots of memories shooting that rile as a kid.
This is a fun blog, looking forward to the rest, Thanks.
HiveSeeker and Gunfun were curious about a couple of things on HiveSeekers Blog /blog/2017/12/crosman-2400kt-co2-air-rifle-part-11/.
I shot 10 shot groups with my stock 2240 yesterday one with the 24 inch 2260 barrel and one with the 26 inch Maximus barrel.
I used Air Arms Falcon pellets 13.43 grains. All shots were at 25 yards. The temperature was 52 deg. F not ideal for CO2. There was a slight gusty breese 2-4 miles per hour.
With the 2260 rifle barrel on the 2240 pistol I got the following results:
With a new CO2 powerlet the average velocity was 549 feet per second. The etreame spread was 10.2 fps with a standard deviation of 3.35. and an energy of 9.56 foot pounds.
The group measured 1.32 inches center to center.
With the Maximus barrel on the 2240 pistol I got the following results:
With a new CO2 powerlet the average velocity was 552 feet per second. The etreame spread was 19 fps with a standard deviation of 5.30. and an energy of 9.69 foot pounds.
The group measured 0.76 inches center to center.
Even with the larger spread in velocity the Maximus barrel is superior. That has held true in all the guns I have tried so far! Now if I could fit a Maximus barrel in my Wildfire that would be a dream come true.
On a warm day I believe the groups for both barrels would be smalller and the velocities would be more uniform and a little higher.
Gunfun ask about the tranfer port inside diameters for the 13xx and 22xx Crosman guns. I should have written down wich transfer ports I have in which guns I did come up with this information:
Transfer Port Orifice “sleeve”
0.080 inches (restricted port for Canada and U.K.)
0.122 inches red measured from my parts box
0.140 inches silver measured from my parts box (Crosman Std)
0.160 inches (un-restricted typical of those for sale on net)
If the transfer orifice diameter is not matched to the valve it wll not achieve maximun effieciency. I do not know what is used on the 2400’s from the Crosman custom shop. That would be good to know.
The 2240 with the Maximus barrel is long but not too hard to hold. Here is a picture.
Thank you for the test. Nice shooting! You have proven that it will work and does better. That makes it a nice addition to HiveSeekers blog series. I am going to end up with one of these yet,.. I just know it. I have decided to stick with Co2 if I do. Keep it simple. Perhaps HiveSeeker will mention your info. in his next blog so as to have it included with the rest of his series? That port info. looks to maybe be a bit hard to come by. Chris
Thanks, If you are just plinking the co2 is the way to go. I get better accuracy with the 1322 pumper version though. I have not tried the Maximus barrel on a 2260; That might be the best bet you get a real rifle stock. The 2260 is Kate’s and I better leave it alone she likes it just as it is.
As you already have a Maximus except for the loudness I don’t see you going to the pistol series. Except for all the mods and aftermarket stuff you will love that. The 13xx series has mucho mods available.
I still just wish they would put a pump tube back on the 2260 I would be all over that. A Maximus barrel and a trigger tune would make a great pumper.
Yep the orifice inside diameters are hard to come by and they normally don’t make much additional power (larger) but are good to reduce power (smaller).
Are you kidding? That thing looks so cool! It looks like some wicked fly swatter or a Scorpion’s stinger! Nice job on the stock padding. Besides the looks,… it looks like just plain ol’ fun. And yes,… I am a wee bit partial to the “occasional” modification. 😉 Your photo gun would most likely be the choice.
But if your looking for as much fps you can get going to the bigger inside diameter orifice than you already have does help.
Remember Buldawgs ice maker plastic hose mod he did. That makes the inside diameter hole much bigger.
I have said this all along from back when Hiveseeker started testing his custom shop Co2 guns that he needs to do some tests with different size transfer port sizes on different guns. Might as well make his report complete since he’s on a roll.
You are correct, just saying a larger orifice won’t normally make a 500 fps gun into a 700 fps gun, unless the 500 fps is with a very restricted orifice.
It would be good to have some numbers with various size orifices and a couple of different barrel lengths as you said.
Data is good for sure.
And time consuming as us modders well know. 🙂
Oh and I forgot to mention I am working on my Wildfire with a dot sight. I have not found a good pellet yet. I don’t expect great accuracy but it should be as good as a 1077. I read somewhere that the barrel is supposed to be upgraded from the 1077. So far not much luck.
My WildFire has a Tasco red dot on it that I have had for years. And on different guns. Definitely my old reliable sight.
But I got to ask. What distance and what kind of accuracy are you looking for out of you WildFire?
I want to get consistent groups around one inch at 25 yards, maybe that is too much to expect.
What are you getting at 25 yards with your Wildfire? My 1077 gets around one inch groups at 25 yards if I remember correctly.
So far mine are around 2 inches with some good sub groups. Still don’t have the right pellet I’m hoping. And have only shot about a hundred pellets so it is not broke in yet.
My WildFire gets 1″ groups at 25 yards with Daisy Precision wadcutters that cost $3.99 a tin of 500 if I’m remembering correctly.
Does the same with JSB 8.4’s.
I like the lighter Daisy wadcutters best though. I get a better shot count of usable shots with the lighter Daisy wadcutters though.
Plus I’m strictly fast action plinking with my WildFire. So I like that flat nose thump the Daisy wadcutters give when you hit a can. My main objective when I plink is keep that can moving till the clip runs dry. And no misses hopefully. And the faster the better.
Oh and it shoots groups pretty much the same with each pellet with the Tasco red dot or even when I tryed it scoped just to see what would happen group wise.
To me when I’m can thump’n.
Hitting a can at 25-35 yards is what I’m after. And that’s standing off hand shooting. No support whatsoever.
Thanks, that is exactly what I am shooting for. I might have some Daisy wadcutters if they are not oxidized. Not sure if i tried the JSB’s yet.
Let me know your results with the WildFire and pellets.
Oh and I deep seat my pellets in the clips sort of. Push them in past flush on the skirts with a Bic pen cap.
Oh, I forgot, I have the UTG dot sight. It is very good but there are two red dots touching each other. Might be my eyes, on the green dot there is only one so that is the one I use. Once I get the trigger at the break point, as B.B. instructed, I can hold the dot on the center of the bull until after the pellet hits the target most of the time.
I was doing some pressure tube diameters today for the Maximus vs 2240-2260 vs Benjamin 392 pumpers. The tube inside diameters are close but the Maximus and 2260 ids are a little smaller about .02 inches. Was trying to covert a Maximus to a pumper. That would not be too hard with the right equipment and skills hint hint.
Guess i need to pick up an old Crosman pumper to use.
Now that sounds like a interesting project.
Hey all this talk about co2 guns, my free spin targets are the perfect fit for co2 powered airguns.
And I have an original Christmas joke I think.
What is a shepherds favorite Christmas song?
OK I’ll bite.
All I want for Christmas is ewe.
I know it was pretty baaad!
That reminds me of a saying that ladies of the fuller figured variety use on occasion,.. “Ewes aren’t fat,… they’re “fluffy”. In my defense,… like it will do me any good,… I have always been partial to the “fluffier” variety myself. 😉
Yup,… that was “baaad”.
Thanks for posting this info. Especially the orifice sizes.
Yep I have said it more than once. Don’t let the fps spread fool ya. The paper is what counts.
And here is something to think about. Even though a valve is equiped with a certain size orifice inside diameter. If you make the opening bigger or smaller than it is now on that paticular valve it will change the fps. I know I done it to many times on different guns.
Hm, the case for the CB caps in this situation is a pretty good one. My only question is about the statement that all airguns need some type of training. I suppose so, but if even I could figure out a repeating springer as my first gun, surely anyone who has the know-how for firearms can work a breakbarrel spring gun. Besides, I would think that pellets would be much easier to find than CB caps which I had never heard of.
But I suppose that the .22 rimfire is the traditional gun for pest control, at least for the smaller animals. A police officer friend once told me about shooting a skunk or some pest on school property with a scoped, bolt-action .22. I asked him where he got it, and he said that he got it off some person who was in trouble in exchange for letting him go. He said that police acquire a lot of guns that way….
If shooting the spinners with a single shot is fun, wouldn’t it be even better to use a repeater or a semi-auto? Just a thought. 🙂
Otho and I did just that today. It was fun. I used my Marlin 39A lever action and the CBs fed perfectly.
I’m thinking this weekend’s blog has a hidden message that’s about having fun with guns and the people you enjoy being around.
I have to say that when my daughter’s pop out while I’m shooting and say let’s shoot some cans. It just bring the whole shooting day to a different level.
And when my buddies stop by with a new gun or my brother. It don’t matter what I’m doing I got to stop and shot some shots with them. Even if we stop and talk about the shooting we did for the next hour.
Sometimes is nice to kick back and enjoy some fun plinking instead of trying for the ultimate group all the time.
Well of course it would be more fun with a repeater or semi-auto. 🙂
BB and Fellow Airgunners
It looks like this weekends blog about your nice Remington Model 33 has caused people to reminisce of their first, or favourite .22 cal rimfire rifles. Up here in Canuck land, the Cooey single shot was almost every young Canadian teens first foré into the world of rimfire rifles. My two best friends and I were no exception, and we purchased ours at a local hardware store for $15:00 each as soon as we turned 16. At that time Calgary, Alberta was only beginning to boom from oil revenue, and was developing a reputation as the Dallas of the North. That meant there were still plenty of gophers to be dispatched in the still undeveloped fields around the city limits. It was a very basic bolt action rifle, but for the price it was the only rimfire rifle we could afford. Evan though the model number escapes me, I do remember it lived on a diet of CIL, and occasionally Remington LR’s, but poor accuracy, or more likely poor technic meant 25 meters was about the longest shot you dared take for any chance of hitting feral pop bottles. After all, scopes were for mounting on the venerable, and popular .30-06 big game centerfires. I believe the rear sight to be adjustable for height, but I don’t recall if it had a windage adjustment. I sold mine for the princely sum of $5:00 a year later, mainly so I could afford gas to visit my girlfriend who who landed a summer job at the Banff Springs Hotel, 80 miles west of Calgary. Ah, if only…
Ahh — the Cooey! Plebeian to you. Exotic to us. And CIL ammo, too!
Unfortunately I understand the reason for parting with it.
Only if we knew how much magic them girls really have. Sometimes your wondering if it’s really you making them moves.
I’m tell’n ya. They have powerful magic. 🙂
Anyone have a suggestion for a quick easy system for keeping track of posts for future reference?
There’s a lot here. Understatement of the year.
I screen shot a lot of comments.
The search function will work as long as you can think of lots of ways to word your search. I just resently started doing what Coduece and others, I’m sure, do. Screen shot with Shift-PrtScn buttons any time I see something I know I’ll want to read again.
If you haven’t done it already, you may just want to start at the beginning and read some everyday. It takes a lot of time but I find that it’s worth it. A good deal of what you will learn is in the comments and I don’t think they are searchable.
As an added incentive I look forward to the blog where BB and Tom do their reveal. ( Please don’t anyone spoil it by telling. It really is like the prize at the bottom of a big ol’ family sized box of Cracker Jacks for me.)
It’s amusing to read them referencing each other.
Coduece and Halfstep
I had not thought of that. Makes perfect sense. There’s so much buried in the comments.
Then one might need to figure out how to organize screen shots.
This is off topic, but I thought it may be of general interest to the readers here.
I bought a Gamo Urban .22 and recieved it a few days ago. With all the buzz about the Diana stormrider and the Umarex Gauntlet being such potentially great guns in the Under $300 category I wanted to offer my impressions on how the Urban stacks up against the stormrider, in my personal experience, anyway.
First off, the Urban was only $20 dollars more than the stormrider. That may be a direct result of the Diana and Umarex offerings putting pricing pressure on guns produced by other manufacturers. I don’t know the reason, but I know it’s a good price at $220. A year ago $100 more would not have paid for an Urban.
Side by side the the Urban beats out the two stormriders that I have owned in many ways, some will be more important to different folks than others, so I’ll list them all and you can place the importance where it suits you.
1) The Urban is polished and blued much better.
2) The stock on the Urban is polymer but I like it better because it is a thumb hole pistol grip and that is just way more comfortable to shoot with arthritic hands and wrists.
3) The silencer silences. I shot the stormrider outside, on the other side of a 6′ privacy fence 25 yards away and my wife said she could hear it inside the house, over the TV, the whole time I was shooting it. I shoot the Gamo in the basement, essentially, right under her butt when she’s on the couch and doesn’t interfere with her reading.
4) The Urban shoots like its on a regulator, which it’s not. It’s just tuned very well. (as is my Gamo Coyote) I’ll post some charts and graphs in a minute, but the air management on the Gamo just puts the Diana to shame. ( Both have clyinders just slightly over 100 cc so that’s one thing that’s equal, I guess.)
5) Bolt is larger and operates smoothly on the Urban, unlike the one on the stormrider which is tiny, gritty and hard to cycle to the point that the skinny little thing will snap of in your hand !
6) In the early going, at least, the Urban is more accurate. I have many pellets that are printing 10 shot groups that are in the .25″ ctc region at 12 yards. ( 12 yards is all I have done so far and I will be doing much longer distances as I can, but I just did the same thing with a stormrider with poorer results, so this should be representative of something)
7) 10 shot clip( admittedly more, and some would say too, expensive ) that is more intuitive to load than the less expensive 7 shot Diana clip.
8) The one piece rail spans the magazine well on the Gamo and made scoping it easy. A plus for the stormrider is the open sights but a negative is that they have to come off for most scope arrangements.
9) The Gamo Urban has not broken yet. Everything is still functioning perfectly and is getting smoother with use. Both of the Dianas broke in the same way within a few hours of shooting. ( the guts started blowing out of the silencer that’s not really a silencer to begin with). Apparently if you keep the gun in spite of the defective silencer, you will eventually be rewarded with a broken off bolt handle from trying to overcome the resistance the breech puts up to the pellet loading. If you know that that is coming you can avoid it by disassembling the gun and opening up the breech end of the barrel with a grinder. My Urban just works. This is British/ European engineering and QC versus rebranded Chinese QC.
10) Out of the box the stormrider has an itsy bitsy tiny bit better trigger, but replacing a screw on the Gamo trigger with a 3mm longer one makes it better than the stormrider’s, to me.
For $20 bucks more you just get more gun with the Gamo Urban.
Here’s a couple of charts and graphs of shooting a light, a medium weight, and a heavy lead pellet .
This is the medium weight. Crosman Premier
And the heavy. JSB Jumbo Monster. These look small but you can click on them and they get big enough to read.
Those Premiers have been sorted by head size with a Pelletgage and by weight with a Hornady powder scale so the power curve should be showing the performance of the gun without too many variables muddying up the results. The valve does really well without the benefit of a regulator even with unsorted pellets, as all the others in the following pics are.
These next three pics are charts and calculations of the previous pellet strings broken down to 10 shot strings.
The first is the Hobbys.
…then the Premiers
…and last, the Monsters
I should have mentioned that those were 12 yard groups.
I was going to post the 10 shot results that I got with all the pellets I tested but I just realized the I haven’t created the images yet, so in the words of the Terminator, “I’ll be Bach” In the meantime, here is a chart of 5.51mm Premiers weighing between 14.4 and 14.5 grains from the optimum fill of about 180 bar.
OK, this is over 40 pellets, I think and for the most part they were just picked out of the tin. The exceptions are the H&N Field Target Trophies. I bought a tin of 500 each of the 3 different head sizes and proceeded to measure them with my new Pelletgage only to find that they don’t really measure what they say on the tin. Out of 1500 way over half had 5.57mm heads and 5.55mm came in next, with 5.54 making up the rest at probably less that 150 pellets. So don’t believe the hype. I did not sort them by weight, though.
and a tiny page 3…
The Premiers, actually Crosman Premier Ultra Magnums, in this case, are not sorted in ant way in page 1 of this last set of charts. It’s a newly open tin and the pellets were picked at random just like all the others.
I’m dying for a reasonably warm, calm day so I can check this out at longer range.
Oh yeah, I ordered a second gun yesterday and the price has actually been rolled back a dollar to $119. Get ’em while they’re hot !
What gun did you get for a $119?
That was an error. I type very slow with two fingers and those fingers were tired after I finished that report. Should have said that my second Gamo Urban was rolled back from $220 to $219. So as cheap as the first one was, my second is an even better bargain. Sorry.
It’s ok. What I was going to ask next is who was having the sale for that $119 price?
Reason being I was going to jump all over that deal. 🙂
You would have had it all to yourself. Nobody else seemed interested at 119 bucks ! Maybe they know something about this gun that I don’t. I sure hope the first one wasn’t a fluke. I’d hate for my buddies to have to compete against me with an inferior gun just because they used my second one instead of buying their own ! LOL
Even if somebody else knew something we don’t know I would still jump on it for that price.
And as it goes for that price if I got it to perform if it it was bad I would be a happy camper.
On page 2 above I left out the group size of the JSB Monsters. It was .182″ ctc.
And I should mention that these 40 + groups were shot with a 180 bar fill, according to my SCBA tank gauge ( the gun’s gauge is in psi and was off on the high side by 150 psi, near as I can tell. The stormrider reads 200 psi high, for what it’s worth), and refilled to that point after two 10 shot strings were fired. The earlier graphs revealed this as the sweet spot.
That is A LOT of data. I hope your chronograph downloads to your computer. And that is A LOT of pellets.
It looks like you will have quite a few pellets to try at a longer distance. I will be interested in how that goes.
That is invaluable information for anyone with an Urban. Great job.
Thanks, and glad you found it interesting. My chrono doesn’t download to my computer. I just dictate the readings from a few strings into my phone then play it back later as I enter the data into Excel. These are the best groups I’ve ever gotten at this distance ,with the exception of my Daisy 853 which isn’t going to reach out long range, so I’m really excited by the prospect of having a really accurate gun at a bargain price. Come on warm weather!
Thank you for taking the time and effort to review the Urban. That is all some very helpful info. for anyone considering one. The benefit of weighing and head sorting was very clear from the smoother shot string (less dips and rises). That is a lot of work, I have done it. And yes, the head sizes and weights are not as advertised as you noted.
I do believe that weighing and head sorting does in fact make a difference in accuracy,.. BUT,…a person must shoot well enough to see that translate itself to paper. I think that most people do not shoot to that high level and therefore find that head sorting and weight sorting are not really worth it in the end. Your chart did clearly show that it does work.
Thanks again for the absolute super review. And yes, older shooters should consider stocks with pistol grips more. Much more comfortable and nicer to shoot. Chris
Thanks for the kind words and I’m glad you found it interesting. I did the 2X sorting (size and weight) with the Ultra Mags just to help evaluate the valve efficiency. I had hoped that it would reveal fluctuations that were caused by just the valve/hammer mechanics rather than a result of having to launch a larger or heavier pellet down the barrel. I think it worked and I’m just blown away by the velocity stability that I got without a regulator. I’ll put up a graph of the stormrider for comparison.
I don’t think sorting all the time is going to be my cup of tea. I’m not competing and it’s very time consuming. And by the way, a whole tin of JSB Ultra Shocks measured exactly the same head size. Didn’t sort by weight.
The numbers in the second column are 5 shot groups at 12 yds, if you were wondering.
Coduece and Halfstep
I had not thought of that. Makes perfect sense. There’s so much buried in the comments.
Then one might need to figure out how to organize screen shots.
You did a great job putting up the data. I did a lot of research before deciding on an upper end gun and looked at this one carefully. Your data compares well with other reports. The Marauder has been hailed as the greatest bargain, but while I have not had my hands on any of them, the Urban looks on paper almost too good to be true.
A detailed tear down of the Marauder on youtube showed it to be quite crudely machined.
I suspect the Urban is a significant step up in that regard. I could not determine where Umarex sources their barrel but it seems to shoot very well. I suspect the BSA barrel will do as well.
The Marauder has a regulator and nice shot count, but the Urban may be the best bargain out there. Put the Alteros regulator on and you may have a clear winner for the same money as the Guantlet.
(Far as I can tell the Urban is a rebranded BSA Buccaneer)
Thanks, glad you found it interesting. I have a Marauder in .22 and its not regulated, although it is tuned well from the factory. It also has not proven to be nearly as accurate at this distance in my own testing with many of these same pellets. And by “not nearly” I mean a factor of three favoring the Urban. I have acquired more pellets since I last worked with my Marauder so maybe I have some now that will be more accurate in it.
As for putting a regulator in the Urban, I don’t think it really needs it or would benefit much from it unless I was also looking to slow the gun down, which I’m not. It has such a small reservoir, and if you look closely at those charts you’ll see that the velocity is stable enough over about 25 shots ( 2 1/2 magazines ) that it shouldn’t suffer much pellet drop at anything except the most extreme distances. I’ll know for sure later. If I put too much more money in it it’s not a bargain anymore.
I just saw your next post about meaning Gauntlet rather than Marauder, so you don’t have to read my first paragraph. 🙂
Thanks for the links. I’ll look at them this afternoon. And I think you’re right about the Buccaneer. I think it is sold in a low power version as the Phox, as well.
Had gen one and gen two Marauder’s in all calibers and synthetic and wood stocks of each.
The .22 Marauder rifles just don’t seem to perform as well as the .177 and .25 caliber models.
I do hope that people don’t base the Marauder performance off of their .22 caliber model. Because it doesn’t represent the other two calibers. And I’m not only talking from my own experience.
I can’t even follow what you said. Your video’s and gun names are all mixed up.
“A detailed tear down of the Marauder on youtube showed it to be quite crudely machined.”
But then you link a video of a Gauntlet.
So which gun looks crudely made?
Oh and the normal production Marauder’s are (not) regulated.
The Crosman custom shop .177 and .22 Marauders do have a internal regulator option.
Turns out that I’ve seen and bookmarked the Gauntlet video. When I run across really thorough teardown ( and hopefully, reassembly) videos I try to save the links “just in case”.
Thank you for all the data, 1/2 step! Very interesting.
I have found that recent production H&N pellets may be consistent in having larger head diameter vs. nominal. I was told by someone that has seen their production that they have an automated optical inspection process to sort by size. Had considered development of such a machine, I’d estimate it to cost over $100K, But I am averse to risking large capital and effort with a very limited market. Will try to study your results. One suggestion, a histogram plot to show size distribution can be very revealing. In some cases, I see a distribution that strongly suggests that the “bell curve” is skewed, likely by an effective way to sort out a max size, with the lower end sloping in a normal fashion.
Wish I knew enough Excel macro to generate histograms directly from a data spread. There is an online site that can make a graphic from statistics:
I suggest a good approach is to take a 50 pc sample from a 500 pc tin, and gage them. Determine mean size of the sample, and a “good” tin should have no more than one pellet greater than +/- 0.01 mm from that mean. The mean size should be within 0.01 mm from nominal. These criteria are pretty tough, and only a minority of the samples I have tried can meet it. Generally, .177 pellets are better than other calibers.
Sometimes I have seen a low sigma with a big variance from nominal, i.e. the mean size is found to be 4.54 vs. 4.52 nominal, with a tight distribution, vast majority being with +/- 0.01 from mean.
Again, looking at the histogram will tell you more…
WOW, I think my head just blew up a little bit!
I’m assuming that you work with statistics or in QC of some sort based on your recommendation, but I have to admit to barely understanding the few statistics that I posted. I only know that a low SD, MAD ,and ES is a good thing as regards ballistics. And, of course, everyone likes to see the average velocity over the string.
All the sorting I did with the Crosman Ultra Mags was just to remove some variables from the picture as I evaluated the air handling by the gun.
Thanks for the kind words and I’m glad you found it interesting.
We have several vision systems at the machine shop that check the parts that get machined. And over a $100,000 is correct.
They can be set up to check all kinds of dimensions on the parts.
And a hundred thousand may sound like alot of money to us. But is nothing compared to what it costs to machine the parts. And more important what it costs if bad parts get sent back from the customer that the parts are being made for.
Usually it’s a chain reaction of bad when that happens. So yes the vision systems don’t really cost that much considering what’s at hand.
CMM’s (coordinate measuring machines) usually don’t have the precision for measurement at micron scale. I have not seen one that does. In my career, we did have Nikon machines that would measure component placement accuracy for PCB assembly. There are optics and laser measurement at micron scale integral to component placement machines that find the position of the parts on the nozzle of the machine with great accuracy and speed. Some of these are used for reading barcodes, of all things. I envision a setup with a vibratory bowl feeder presenting the pellets, and an optical system to find the diameters of the part (pellet). It obviously can be done, but doing it with consistency and accuracy, given the complexity of the part shape will likely be difficult. If it weren’t, then we’d see more perfect pellets. 🙂
And I agree, the amount of investment is not large on a corporate scale, but it is on a retiree scale. Pelletgage is slow and labor intensive, but it is very precise and accurate and relatively inexpensive.
I didn’t go into much detail when I said vision system where I work. But they consist of optic and lasers. Keyence is the brand we have. And we have custom made systems using their cameras and lasers and such. Not the table too systems they have. And or parts are fed by vibrating bowls then onto a belt conveyor. One of the machines will measure 12 hole diameters and locations as well as the part outside diameter and over all legnth. It can do that in 2 seconds.
And we have 3 Zeiss CMM’s at work.
And when your talking microns. Do you mean “millionths” of a inch? As in .00001″ or microns as in .001 millimeters. Some people refer to a millionth of a inch as a micron and nowdays matter of fact the last 15 years all or blue prints have been in milimeters. So now people refer to that third digit past the decimal point in milimeters as 1 micron.
And as you know a millionth of a inch is alot smaller than .001 milimeters. We would need one more digit past the decimal point in mm to get close to a millionth of a inch.
But most our tolerances are measured in +/- .025 mm. Which is around +/-.001of a inch. So no not a millionth of a inch. But still close enough to measure a pellet head diameter if wanted.
I remember seeing a video of the JSB and Crosman pellet making plants. And of course they didn’t show to much of the processes involved. I don’t recall them saying anything about measuring systems. But I’m sure there is something used that they don’t talk about. But I do remember that the JSB plant had a bunch of ladies hand checking and visually checking each of the pellets as a final inspection going into the tins.
And I would bet that’s why JSB pellets cost more than Crosman pellets. And even with all the checks we do at work along with the vision systems and the Zeiss machines. We still have people visually checking parts as they get packed in the boxes.
And not retired yet. And have to many calipers and micrometers laying around if I need to check pellets I suppose. But so far for the type of shooting I do the JSB pellets seem to work right out of the tin. And as I’m sure you know I get pretty good target results. 😉
I have never thought of a micron as other than 10E-6 meters. The term microinches is used in the imperial system. But some terminology like “mils” (commonly, 0.001 inch) can be confused with millimeters. A micron is 40 microinches, just as a meter is about 40 inches. I’m sure you understand this, this is only for reader clarity.
So, if pellets are specified to the 0.01 mm, the last one is ten microns. Ten microns is equivalent to 0.0004 inches. As you say, a micron is the third place past decimal millimeters.
In my experience CMM’s can handle +/- 0.001 inch accuracy, or 25 microns – but not much better. Pelletgage resolves ten micron steps with precision within 2.5 microns (0.0001 inch), and it does this diametrically, not measuring one linear chord.
Now, in the realm of automatic measurement at that sort of resolution, I have asked some trade experts, and come up empty. Consulting with people that I know in automated precision assembly equipment, they advise that lasers can profile a small object to that dimensional tolerance – limited to a simple axial profile measure. And I think we’d be talking about somewhere in a six figure investment to do it in an automated, high speed fashion. If I were on someone’s payroll to develop this, it’s a task I might really like. As a retiree who would be betting my own money that it would be practical and have a market to sell profitably, I’m out.
I have heard from someone who visited the H&N plant that they have automated metrology for pellet size. I think the German industry might be the best place to look for this type of machine.
Various sources say that JSB (Czechoslovakia) uses manual instruments for measuring their pellets. I believe that calipers and even micrometers are weak instruments for this. Saying that does not exclude the possibility of getting some degree of accuracy in results. As I have said, I personally saw the lady riding a unicycle, and flipping spinning plates up to the stick balanced on her head. Never underestimate the ability of a skilled, dedicated human.
BUT (emphatically) if the basic process controls don’t give you a Cpk assuring that inspection is only a check, then it is a sure bet that you will find adverse variances. And IMHO even the best pellets on the world market today have such variance in head size. That being true, there is a market for Pelletgage.
From what I have seen with vision and laser systems I don’t know if I would risk my money in developing one.
They work. But that can’t catch everything. As it goes they are only as good as they are designed and the quality of the equipment used for them.
Then you have to get the customer that will buy and use them to understand that. Kind of a catch 22 thing. Making the customer believe and understand the system is what has to be done up front. I know this from exsperiance.
And yes I know the pellet gauge can check to a tighter tolerance than the other measuring devices we have talking about. But it can’t check all dimensions on a pellet. And maybe the head of the pellet is (one) of the important dimensions to check. But if you are wanting the most accuracy you can from your pellets measuring wise then there is more to it then the pellet gauge.
You invented the pellet gauge if I remember right. And it is a nice tool to have. But it doesn’t measure everything.
Jerry & GF1
GF1 you and I have discussed the Zeiss CMMs before. You may remember me stating that I programmed and ran a Zeiss CMM 850MC. Zeiss uses a different technology for recording points than other CMMs. Most use a trigger probe (Reneshaw) probe head. The Zeiss uses a Piezo (sp) measuring head which uses shock waves. This system is capable of accurate measurements to .0001″ or less. We had a laser mic to calibrate plug gages and a Federal ID/OD comparator which used gage blocks. The Federal gage took an extreme amount of time to setup and use. Our shop had several hundred gage setting rings for bore gages and air probes. I found that I could measure ring masters as accurately with the Zeiss and much faster. Even though the gage rings were XX tolerance, we had no way to measure to that tolerance so our manager allowed us to calibrate ring masters to a tolerance of .0001″. I created a Zeiss program that would take 8 points in the ring and repeat 10 times and then give an average of the 80 readings. Most of the time my results were within 50 micro inches of the stated size. Rings don’t normally wear much unless they are being used with an air probe to check aluminum part IDs. I worked with the Zeiss CMM for over 25 years and no other CMM could touch it for accuracy. Not B&S, Cordax, Mitutoyo, or whatever….none. Just wanted to weigh in on CMM accuracy. I would agree that the pelletgage would be the best method to measure pellet head size because it measures the entire diameter. And if one has some skill, it is very easy to feel .0001″ differences in diametral size.
Thanks for the info.
And the pellet gauge would be good for measuring head diameter.
But one additional measurement that is needed that the pellet gauge can’t do. And that is check for a out of round head. As we call it egg shaped.
If you have a out of round pellet head it will cause acurracy problems.
Sorry, I was writing Maurader, meaning to write Gauntlet. Brain fart.
But one thing to mention about Crosman/Benjamin is customer support.
I have Umarex guns that don’t shoot because they don’t offer repair parts.
Don’t know how Gamo is now days. But replacement parts availability is a big thing in my book. What good is a gun if you can’t fix it later on.
Weirauch and FWB along with Crosman still offer repair parts for the most part on their guns.
Something to think about you know.
Scratch the word Marauder from my post. Put in Gauntlet. I must have had some strange “au” dyslexia attack.
I agree support is important. Gamo does not have a great rep. I think airguns is just a minor element in their big corporation. Might be taking it too far but they may sell them like toys.
I wonder if BSA could provide parts.
I bought my 2400 solely because I could get it with a LW barrel. Wouldn’t it be great if Crosman could refine their own barrel making? I’m guessing its an expensive thing.
How on earth does BSA sell not only their hammer forged barrel, but an action at that kind of price??
I imagine its all about Gamo marketing and volume.
One other element, I’d like to buy American built, but only if it’s what I really want. A good second choice to me is British.
Crosman has refined their barrel making. It seems that the Maximus has debut the new Crosman barrel making process.
The Crosman website even talks about the new improved process if you search deep enough.
And I have mentioned many times that I have Crosman barrels that out do the Lothar Walther barrels that fit the 2240’s and 1322/77’s and Disco’s and so on.
I myself if I had the custom gun shop you have right now. It would be getting a Maximus barrel.
About the regulator, if I buy an Urban for the field target course, I would not put a regulator in. Over 20 shots within 20 fps is decent. I just threw that in to make it comparable to the GAUNTLET (dyslexia subsiding now).
Maybe if you put your modding skills to work and come with a bigger tank it would make sense 🙂
The object with a regulator is to get more consistent shots.
The added shots is a benefit that comes with the consistent shots.
Kind of a 2 for 1 deal. 🙂
I get that.
Regulator on stock tank adds a few consistent shots.
Regulator on a bigger tank adds more consistent shots.
More value for the price of the regulator. 🙂
And more shooting time out of a given amount of air means less hand pumping. That’s another benefit of a regulator.
And the benefit of a smaller tank. This is a 232 bar gun after all. As long as I’ve got electricity I have easy air with my HPA compressor. How is your new one holding up?
Thanks for asking about the compressor.
It’s been great. So far the best 300 bucks I spent in a while.
It still amazes me how fast it is. I timed it filling my Maximus just yesterday. It filled it from 800 psi to 3000 psi at right under 1 minute.
The Shoebox would of took around 5-6 minutes to do. Not putting down the Shoebox. I had good luck with the one I had. I had it for over 5 years and it’s still going strong. My buddy bought my Shoebox and is still having no problems.
But yep you know me on the China products but I have to say. Both the HPA compressor and the HOA QB79 I have are both doing good. If I get 5 years out of the compressor I’ll be a happy camper. 🙂
Is direct filling the guns the only way you use it?
Right now yes. But I have plans for a Wing Shot in the future and a AirForce Talon SS in .25 caliber.
So definitely will needs bottle for the Wing Shot.
And when I had my Shoebox I filled a buddy bottle and my guns with it it for about the first 3 years. Then I went to just filling the guns.Just all depended on what I was doing.
But I like the idea of just filling the guns. I think it’s easier on the compressor. They run for a shorter time that way so less heat and wear on the compressor. Plus guns don’t have to be filled to a higher pressure like when you fill a bottle. The higher the pressure you fill to and the longer run time is what will add up and kill the compressor.
That’s a good point you made about the lower fill pressure. Hadn’t really thought about it that way.
Yep reducing run time is the trick.
That’s why I’m kind of going to try to start going with regulator equiped guns. Less times I have to fill the guns.
I know let’s start a movement.
“Save the HPA compressor’s”
I want to know who took over the body of the guy I used to know that pledged he was only going to shoot guns with their own power source. The dark side is not so easy to escape, is it, Master Vader ?
The dark side will swallow you up if you let it.
Definitely a powerful source.
But a good dark source in some good kind of way. 🙂
I need an edit button or maybe get some sleep. The last post I directed GF was for Halfstep.
If they really compare now to LW that’s awesome. You are not just getting a lucky one then?
Are you saying you’d put a Maximus barrel on my 2400?
Yeah buddy on the Maximus barrel on the 2400.
Have you ever tried to or do you know if other modders ever turn down or bush barrels that don’t normally interchange to make then work or are there bigger issues than just outer dimensions that usually prevent interchanging. I’ve never re-barreled a gun so I have no clue. Can you buy a LW barrel and machine it enough to get it to fit a wide range of guns? Or put a Maximus barrel on an underperforming stormrider, maybe ???
Yes I have machined barrels to fit other guns. Two examples is a .22 caliber and a .25 caliber barrel from Mike Mellic with the Flying Dragon air gun site.
And I have heard of people buying the FX smooth twist barrels and putting them on other guns. I have yet to try that. But would like to put one on one of my Crosman or Benjamin guns. My two FX Monsoons I had were very accurate guns.
There are things to look for when your trying to find a barrel to machine and swap. First is barrel outside diameter. I like it to be a bigger diameter than the breech diameter it will fit in.
Then you have to see if the breech end of the barrel has the correct lead in chamfer so the probe seals. And you need to see if the barrel gas the o-ring probe seal or if the bolt probe has the o-ring on it. That’s critical for the bolt to seal good. If that distance is wrong you will have a low power inconsistent gun.
Then the tough part is seeing if the barrel you ate going to swap in has the transfer port hole in the correct location. Then to see if it will accept the seals and transfer port orafice.
And there’s more to it than that. Those were some of the things. But fitment and locations is a big part of it. The more similar the better.
I had thought about the tranfer port but not the design and fit of the breech and bolt. On this stormrider I think all the contours for the bolt are machined into the breech block which is also fitted with the oring seal rather than being on the bolt. Now that I think about it, I don’t remember seeing a port in the barrel when I had it out. I think it must be in the breech block as well. That should make re-barreling this gun about as easy as it gets, according to what you told me to watch out for. Did I understand you correctly?
Yep if your correct about the info you gave.
Yes sir it should be a pretty straight forward swap on that part.
But you will have to see if the new barrel has a side hole drilled already for a transfer port.
The hard part is to get the two barrels in front of you to compare. Not that it’s hard to get a new barrel. But hard to get the one that’s closest to what you want to do.
And the manufacturers of air guns usually don’t release barrel dimension info. So it is a bit difficult on that part.
On a barrel with variable rifling twist does that by itself make a difference? It may not be a good thing.
On a constant twist barrel the rpm starts at zero and accelerates with the velocity of the projectile any way.
If the velocity is high before twist rate increases that would tend to strip out the projectile rifling contatact.
I think the last inch or two of the barrel make all the accuracy and precision. That is as long as the rest of the barrel is not bad.
Definitely something to think about.
But I do know the FX smooth twist barrels work. From what I remember the barrel is a smooth bore till about 3 or 4 inches from the muzzle end of the barrel.
Maybe the pellet does get sheared at first. Then maybe gets sized to the rifling by time it exits the barrel? Don’t know. Just know they are accurate barrels.
And while we are on the barrel subject. I saw on the Crosman website that their barrels and the Walther Lothar barrels they use have different amount of lands and twist rates between the two barrels. Don’t remember right now with hand more lands or what twist rate combination.
But that was always something I would of like to see out of the FX barrels and even the Wing Shot. That is a different screw on muzzle peice that has different twists rates and land combinations so a certain pellet or bullet could be tuned in with the rifling.
And the Wing Shot is almost there. They already have different screw in chokes for shooting the birdshot. Now they need some rifled inserts. Right now if you shoot bullets from it. It is a smooth bore. Which I think is cool too. The bullets that I see for it are those dumbbell shaped bullets. Which is what I believe was used in a air gun that I think was a father son deal that won some sort of long distance smooth bore air gun competition. I myself am facinated by smooth bore shooting.
And forgot to mention the barrels I machined from Mike would fit Discovery’s or Maximus and the 1322/77’s and 2240’s with Crosman steel breech.
And maybe you wonder why I chose those barrels. First cause the features were close to Crosman barrels. Second I already had a .22 barrel so I wanted to see if I could get it to fit because I knew Mike had the .25 caliber barrels.
The main objective is I wanted a .25 caliber barrel that would fit those gun’s I just mentioned.
So you made .25 barrels to fit those other guns that started as .22 or.177? Did it work and what was the ballpark on price, if you remember ?
I’d also like to ask you, If I run my SCBA tank down to 232 bar and then hook it to my Urban and just leave the valve open, would that act like a regulated gun, for awhile at least, so I could see if a regulator would be worthwhile to buy? Was actually thinking more for my Coyote because it has a bigger reservoir and shoots at a little higher velocity than my Urban so a reg might give me more lower power shots with it. What do you think?
On the barrels. No I did not make the .22 barrel into a .25 caliber barrel.
I had the .22 barrel and machined the breech end dimensions to fit the Crosman steel breech.
Then I bought a .25 barrel from Mike. Then I machined the breech end of the .25 barrel to fit the Crosman steel breech.
Two different caliber barrels.
And on the bottle thing. No that would not work like you think. Your gun is still using air from they same pressure it’s introduced to the guns valve.
Now if you had a regulator in line from the bottle to the gun then you could set the regulator for whatever working pressure you want to supply the guns valve. Then feed it off your bottle.
That’s exactly what the long distance big bore shooters do when shooting for records and types of competition’s. They want each shot to be as consistent as possible. So that bib air tank keeps the guns air supply stable.
If you do like your saying. The gun would maintain. But not like a regulator. I don’t think it would show the results your after doing it that way.
I think I’ll give it a go anyway. It won’t cost anything and I’ll let you know how it works out. We may each learn something.
On the barrel, I was basically asking if you machined the end of a .25 barrel to replace a .22 barrel. I know you do a lot of modding but I didn’t recall you ever claiming to have re-rifled one before.
On that note, do you have any tricks for improving a barrel that you already have that just shoots poorly after a good break in period?
I like the way you think and the way that you willing to explore new ideas.
As for twist, you got what you got. It could very well be that a specific twist may be ideal for a given fps and given pellet fit. In theory, that could be infinite.
I do like the concept of a pellet starting out at a slower twist rate and accelerating to a higher twist rate as it nears the muzzle. In theory, it would seem that there would be a bit of a “skidding” effect of the pellet at the start of it’s travel if the barrel has a constant twist rate from beginning to end. An accelerated twist rate seems better.
Safe to say though,… you are diving into the “deep end” of things! 😉 I admire that!
Not only am I not diving yet, I don’t even have my wittle toes hanging off the board. I have wondered if smaller diameter, soft lead pellets might not be stripping out if they take off too fast. I’m finding that some pellets like to shoot slower out of some of my guns. And as for having one twist over another, aren’t all the small bore pellet guns the same 1 in 16 twist? ( Excluding exotics like the FX guns, of which I own none)
The Lothar Walther barrels have different twist rates and amount of lands in the rifling.
“wittle toes”,… I like that. 😉 In all truth, I have not studied up seriously on twist rates for the main reason of just what can a person do to change what they have?
Changing a barrel to a better barrel makes sense,.. even if it involves a bit of machining. The tuff part there is finding someone to do the work unless you have a small home lathe/mill set up.
As for barrel support, I see quite a few higher end rifles with a whole lot of barrel hanging out there. Harmonics do play in and that is where barrel weights and moving the support band can help. Running on the theory that even an air gun barrel has barrel “whip”,.. you want to control that whip so that the pellet leaves the barrel at the point that the barrel is at zero whip,… or where it would be at rest. I moved the band on the Maximus like 3″ with much improvement.
As I said,.. you are diving into the deep end of the pool. I look forwards to seeing you go forwards and hopefully we can all learn a thing or two. Not enough people are willing to play around like that.
Wanted to say that I just finished watching a video review of the stormrider by Kenny at myairgunreviews on Youtube and he had some of the issues with his gun that I had with mine and he mentions an ongoing problem with hard loading due to barrel misalignment. If you know anyone that is starry eyed over the gun and is hoping to find one in their stocking, you might want to steer them clear. Here is the link.
You guys got me to thinking about the acceleration of the pellet and where the most stress on the pellet would be. It would be at the point of highest acceleration.
I took HiveSeekers data from his blog: /blog/2017/12/crosman-2400kt-co2-air-rifle-part-11/
I added a zero velocity at zero inches and ran a new curve fit. Then I calculated the acceleration for each 1 inch of the barrel. It really needs more data points for what I am doing. Someday I may get another Crosman 2260 24 inch barrel and incrementally cut it off in one inch increments to as short as it will go. But HiveSeekers data does give some interesting results.
It shows the maximum acceleration at about 3 inches of barrel. I am assuming that the muzzle velocity of a 10 inch barrel is the same as the velocity 10 inches down a 24 inch barrel. I admit that is a big assumption. Anyway below is the graph. Also not kind of a lack of acceleration around 15 inches.
That’s some deep stuff you and hiveseeker better get some dive gear.
I meant halfstep but all three of you guys are in deep and GF1 too. To many Belgium doubles tonight.
Cutting the barrel one inch at a time would be there results.
And please don’t take this wrong. Graphs are cool but not real world. Reminds me of Chairgun.
I like Chairgun. It gives me a reference point. It might be close. But not real time shooting results.
So yep do the barrel cutting. It’s alot of work especially if your going to shoot groups afterwards. The barrel needs to be cut off perpendicular to the bore. And the crown needs to be concentric to the bore.
Looks good to me. I would be more concerned with experimenting with modifying twist rates.
BB has said that airgun barrels are dead soft steel. Crosman barrels are cheap.
What if?: Take a 24″ barrel and chuck it in a vice at say 6″ from breech end. Heat and rotate barrel 1/2 turn. Re-chuck at 12″ and repeat. Repeat at 18″. That might get you something like a 1:16 at breech and a 1:10 at the muzzle. Maybe no heat needed? Maybe use a lathe to better control the process? (non-powered, by hand)
That would be a fun (and I think a do-able) experiment, don’t you think? If a faster spin imparts more stability, then it should improve accuracy.
I just watched a YouTube video tour of the BSA airgun plant and they were making .177 Meteor barrels that were 12 grooves with a 1 in 19″ twist. All small bores are clearly NOT 1 in 16″ as I thought.
Yes interested in hearing if you try something.
And no I don’t have the resources to rifle a barrel. Wish I did.
Yes I have some things that help. Two big things I found is burrs inside the bore of the barrel where they drill the transfer port hole. That will gouge the head and skirt as the bolt probe pushes the pellet past it. I take a coat hanger and roll a strip of 240 grit sandpaper around it till I get a precise fit to the inside bore. Then put some supper glue on the sand paper at the end of the sand paper and let it wick in to secure the sandpaper. And that way no part of the coat hanger is exposed. This can be done with the barrel on the gun but you can run it down the barrel from the muzzle end. Just be gentle pushing it down the barrel. Once you get down by The transfer port hole you can rotate the coat hanger while you move in and out about a 1/4 of a inch.
And the other is I take a strip of some 240 grit sandpaper paper and kind of roll into a cone or funnel shape. Then I deburr the crown at the muzzle end and the lead in chamfer at the breech end where the pellets loaded. You probably need the barrel out to do the breech end.
But yes that has improved barrel accuracy in problem guns I have had.
Here is my pushing rod I made for the QB79 when I was shooting the multiple steel bb’s out of it like a shot gun.
I used the push rod to push the paper towel wadding down the barrel to keep the bb’s held in place from rolling out.
I used masking tape and super glue to wick it and hold it in place.
So if your making that deburring rod with the sandpaper it looks like this but with sand paper instead of the masking tape.
Oh and if you have the barrel out if the gun blow some air through it to get the dust out of it before you put it back on the gun. If it’s on the gun and it’s not a spring gun or nitro piston gun do some dry fires to get some of the dust out.
And it may take 30 shots or so for the accuracy to come in. Maybe even about 4 or so drops of silicone oil in the barrel where you load the pellet.
Let me know if you give it a go.what you got to loose. It sounds like it don’t shoot like you want as it is anyway.
Sounds like it’s worth a try. The stormrider has that port in the breech block, I think it’s called ( the part the barrel slides into) and the barrel is pretty easy to remove. Does that cause any damage to the lands and groves down by the transfer port if the hole is in the barrel?
I thought that the problem might be that the barrel is so unsupported( it just passes through the rear sight block without touching it) but the earlier picture of Benji-Don’s gun doesn’t look very supported either, so I guess that’s not the problem. Also, I think centerfire rifles are modified so the barrel doesn’t touch the stock at all to try to get BETTER accuracy. I may still knock out a quick prototype from wood or something, just to see. I may get lucky and find that it improves the harmonics or something. It’s winter and I like indoor stuff to mess with in the winter. 😉
Barrel support is something that has to do with harmonics. And from what I have seen on most PCP and pump and Co2 guns like we are talking about the barrels are held into the breech by a set screw. So they lock up and stay for the most part.
And don’t know how your Diana is or the other one you have. But the Crosman guns have a bit of a forward and rearward adjustment in the breech. That helps you locate the barrel up against the bolt to seal it tightly to the lead in on the barrel. Another thing to watch for in barrel selection if your modding another manufacturers barrel to fit a paticular gun.
And yes the transfer port hole can have burrs going into the rifling. That’s what I was talking about deburring with that coat hanger and sandpaper rod..
The barrel needs to be burr free. You don’t want I make the bore diameter bigger. You just want to knock off any sharp edges in the barrel. And be done.
Kind of a barrel cleaning if you will. But the important thing is you don’t want to change barrel size.
Your comment is an example of why I bother to read all the comments carefully. Learning new, and simple tricks that improves the accuracy of your airgun, thus increasing my enjoyment of the sport is what it’s all about in my books. The knowledge I have gained through BB’s blogs, and the comment section over the past 8 years, has been invaluable, not to mention the time, money, and aggravation I’ve saved by taking a wrong path on my own.
I feel the same. And it’s always interesting to hear what people have to say.
And I think I’m suppose to say thanks right now. 🙂
GF1, and you didn’t tell me how your barrels worked out.
They worked just as well as the Crosman barrels that were originally on the guns.
The main objective was getting a .25 caliber barrel for those gun’s I mentioned. Crosman doesn’t offer a .25 caliber barrel that fits the plastic or steel breeches of those gun’s.
What I was after was a 35 yard starling thumper with the big mass of the .25 caliber pellet along with the weight.
The pellet was only going about 385 fps with a 31 grain Barracuda .25 caliber pellet. You could literally see the pellet flying to the bird it was going so slow. When it hit the bird would almost do a back flip from getting hit so hard with that bigger chunk of lead. Energy wasn’t anything spectacular. It’s just that thump as it was penetrating was retained in the bird. So it was more of push instead of poke when it hit if you know what I mean.
Ran out of room below. Thanks for the LW barrel info. I was unaware of that. ( my UNAWARE list is bigger than my Xmas list and I have one heck of an Xmas list ! )
I’m pretty sure we all have or unaware list.
We wouldn’t be human if we didn’t. Would we? 🙂
I saw from GF1’s comment above that you ended up getting a Daystate Wolverine. I am (thrilled) that you went with your original instincts of going higher end. I went to the A of A site and watched the 15 minute video. Very impressive to say the very least. I am very happy for you,… and amiss for not saying just a wee bit jealous as well,….. 😉
Perhaps I missed it, or forgot it,… or both,… but what did you end up with on a pump and tank? Did you get any sort of HPA secondary moisture filter add on?
Perhaps most of all,… did you get it yet?
I’ve actually been able to decipher what’s goin’ on, so no problem! 😉
WOW ! I just looked up the Daystate Wolverine and that’s a lot of gun (and dough). I guess that sucker better perform. What caliber and for what purpose do you intend it ? Are we going to see some reviewin’ action on it in the future?
It will be .22 in the new HiLite model which has a Huggett moderator, and carbon fiber tank. I will mostly be shooting targets off a bench on my back patio, out to 100 yards, though I think I’ll shoot more around 50. I also plan to set up a field target course along a trail I’ve carved out through my wooded 5 acres.
I’ll provide feedback for sure, but we have snow, and temps around freezing now, so my shooting will be limited until it warms up a bit.
Having your own FT course would be a hoot ! And 10-4 on the warmer weather.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I’ve never spent anywhere near that on any gun, but I feel good about the decision. I guess we will see if that changes when I’ve put it through the paces. If I’m not totally pleased I know it can easily be sold without large losses.
I see a lot of people spend the same or close in small chunks to get their project to peak accuracy and I see nothing wrong with that, in fact it could be a very enjoyable, satisfying experience. I do think the Wolverine will provide its own special kind of satisfaction.
I forgot to fully answer…
The gun should get here in a few days.
I decided to start with a tank – its a Carlton 98 CF. I think Air Venturi sells it. This is delayed until after Christmas due to inventory shortage so I’ll have one full tank to shoot and then fidget waiting.
There’s a scuba store here that will fill it for $5. Not sure on exact number of fills per tank but at least 30 so that will be fine to start. I’m watching feedback on the $300 Chinese compressors and will eventually either buy something like that or a second tank.
Too bad we are all so far apart, it would be fun to have a shoot together.
Yes, that would be fun. Good deal on the tank. That is nice that you have a fill source handy and thus puts no rush on a compressor. I would have to give that 300$ one a hard look. GF1 does a lot of shooting (lucky for all of us) so he is an ideal tester for it. Having a pump at home is really nice, but your situation hardly makes the extra investment worth it. The quality of your air is going to be top notch as well. That would be a prime consideration on a higher end gun.
And you know I’m all about having fun shoot’n. So nothing special happening from me.
I’m just doing what I need to to have fun shoot’n. 🙂
You are a good resource for the rest of us in that you shoot a lot, have tried many airguns and have done many modifications. So,… I guess that you could say that you have a bit of “street cred”,.. in an airgun sort of way. 😉
Ok I can relate to that.
And thanks. 🙂
I have absalutly no regrets getting the $309 China compressor yet.
The thing is super fast. And what’s nice it’s self contained. So you don’t have to have a first stage shop compressor to supply the incoming air.
It’s only about 35 pounds to and 110 volt. So that means if your out camping or something you could transport it easy and use a gas generator to supply electric. It does come with a nice carry handle on top too.
The way I figure it is if it lasts 5 years I can buy another. Heck maybe I should buy another and put it away for later on if needed. And I’m sure they ain’t going to get cheaper over time. They already are compared to the others.
Does yours have a pressure switch?
The guy in this review gave me a chuckle with his gruff voice and laugh. He’s like some movie character.
No pressure switch o. The China compressor. And I took it off my Shoebox.
I seen to much craziness happen at work with pressure switches. And that’s a whole nother story I don’t want to get into here. When they work their nice. When they don’t. Bad news.
But I watch mine while I’m filling. Guns most definitely because I’m trying to hit a precise fill pressure for that paticular gun. The pressure switch can’t accomplish that.
That is a first that I recall that you do not care for pressure switches. You have a point, but the worst that is going to happen is that it blows a pressure disc that you would have to replace. That would seem better than pushing a tank to it’s limits or a gun reservoir.
Also, Buldawg recommended stronger valve screws for the Maximus,.. now doing a 3000 fill. Your thoughts on that?
Yep on stronger bigger diameter bolts to hold the valve in if your going to more pressure. But you know how that subject goes. What did they test it for from the factory.
Yes on the burst discs. But remember. You been filling a buddy bottle to 4500 psi.
Now for a example. Take your Maximus and hook it up directly to the Shoebox. Your filling to 3000 psi now with the regulator like I am if I remember right.
So your pressure switch is set for 4500 psi on your Shoebox Right? Or something close to that anyway. So now if your directly filling your Maximus to 3000 psi how you going to shut your Shoebox off?
And better yet I believe your filling your Marauder to 3600 psi like I did mine. And that is what you exactly want for your full fill pressure because that’s what your shot string testing proceed best. Right? So how you going to shut your Shoebox off if filling it directly to 3609 psi?
I do not get what you are saying on the shut off point. Just shut it off when it reaches the desired fill pressure. Watch it, shut it off, bleed it off,… done. I do not see the benefit of removing a pressure switch. The pressure switch on the Shoebox can be lowered as well,… as you well know.
My Shoebox had a mechanical shut off so it was a pain to get set for a precise shut off at a certain pressure. Trying to set it for each gun I wanted to fill would of been a nightmare.
And does yours have a electric pressure switch? Can it be set easily for different fill pressures? And can it repeat the fill pressure you set it for?
If so great. I don’t know my Shoebox was a older model. If it won’t repeat then bummer.
But yes the power on/off switch is what I used on my Shoebox and my China compressor to stop at the fill pressure I want.
Yes, it has an adjustable pressure switch and is fairly good on repeatability. It may do 4400 one time and 4600 the next, but it is reliable. I do watch it and will back it down if it does the higher side a few times in a row. Like anything, it is a mechanical device subject to fluctuations. It is the Shoebox 10. Mine is right where they went from the 8 and sent me the 10 pulley and belt for free if you remember correctly. I am still running the 8 set up and saving the 10 set up for when the belt needs a re-do. Not as good as the A.V. or your new one,.. but it works just fine for me, for now.
I knew you had that crossover model. But did not know how or how well the pressure switch worked.
I have to give the Shoebox a plus 1 on the pressure switch then. That’s nice compared to the model I had.
And not as good as or better than. Who knows. I liked my Shoebox no doubt. The pump I have now is nice. The Air Venturi pumps are nice as well as the high dollar pumps.
All that matters to me right now is that mine keeps running. If it keeps chugging along I’ll be happy.
Meant 3600 psi.
I breezed through the video. That fellow is quite the hoot. Perhaps some strong German beer involved? Just sayin’. 😉 How about that homemade wood bodied arrow shooter that he concocted? That thing had one heck of a bang! I will give the guy credit too for tearing into a new compressor just to show the guts. Thanks for the video. It was interesting to say the least. It is worth a watch.
He cracked me up and impressed me at the same time with his disassembly and his arrow shooter invention. There are some very interesting people out there. Fun to live at a time when the net lets us connect with them.
And we don’t know any air gun arrow inventors here on the blog do we. 😉
I was going to mention that,… but given my less than stellar results,… I declined. Personally,.. I like the arrow (over) barrel method. I like darts too. I still have all the stuff. The Maximus might be a good platform for darts. Getting a strong PCP with a small enough barrel OD to accept aluminum arrows is tuff. Plus, the aluminum has extra weight that requires additional power to overcome it. All in all, fun stuff.
Muzzle loaded darts could really be a big thing if someone would put the effort into developing them. A dart that anyone with a .177 or .22 can just load up and shoot.
Agree with you a hundred percent on the Maximus and arrow shooting.
I think if I was to get a .177 Maximus it would have what I need to stretch out my shot gun bb shooting to a farther distance.
Man just so much to try and no time.
And forgot to add in the darts. I like that idea very much too.
I have had modern big bore blow guns and they are pretty accurate and deadly if you find the size that fits you. I think there is 3 different diameters now days. I think matching the bore to your air size I guess I’ll call it is what seems to be what makes a difference in performance.
But I bet what applies to blow guns also would relate to air guns. Sounds like fun to me.
YES!!!! If there is a good blow gun barrel ID that exactly matches a .177 or .22 or .25 caliber (air gun) barrel,… then a dart seems like a no brainer. A PCP will put out a heck of a lot more of a “puff” of air. Springers may work, but PCP’s would seem to be the go to. Unless the dart could be breech loaded, the only option would be muzzle loaded. That would differ from a blow gun.
Maybe a bolt action where the bolt could be removed, dart inserted and bolt reinstalled?
What is the difference really? But,…?,… perhaps a PCP would be (too much) air for a dart,… even the best of the darts? I am not talking little baby pistol darts either,.. but rather the much longer blow gun darts.
I did see where NERF came out with new foam “darts” that have a new head that spirals and improves the accuracy. I thought that was interesting. My first thought was a spiral that was formed into the head of a lead pellet,… of course! 😉 They could call it the “Chopper”,… or the “Drill”,… 😉
Out’a here for now and back in the AM,…… the ol’ brain is obviously “drifting” a bit!
I was meaning more in the sense that out of those 3 blow gun size tubes. That one would fit a person’s air they can generate.
In other words a big tube might be hard for a smaller person to fill with air needed for a shot. Just a example.
So maybe a certian size tube would work better for a certain person.
You have a (very) valid point of modding your way up to what you want OR buying various guns up to the point you want. I did that a bit with my .25 M-rod and RAI kit. Sometimes it is just better to go all the way the first time around and call it done. As much as I like to mod. things,… I am afraid something that like that would be a shoot and enjoy only.
I will be looking forwards to upcoming reports along with hopefully some photos. I understand that the Walnut stocks are a specially selected higher grade wood. You could end up with a real looker on top of an awesome shooter.
This is a bit of an intangible, but when I view youtube reviews of the Wolverine, there is always something communicated that cannot be faked regarding the impression of the person holding and operating the weapon.
Also, I got the same sense from the friend I purchased from, who has been doing maintenance and repair on all makes for 30 plus years. His highest regard is reserved for Daystate and Air Arms.
I am about function first, but a pretty walnut stock that feels good in the hand and shoulders well can only enhance the feeling of getting what you paid for. I am at the stage of life, having worked long and hard, and considering the ways people pay for recreation, this is a relatively inexpensive way to enjoy a reward.
🙂 Very well said. So much so,.. that I can think of nothing to add.
You had not mentioned that you had a friend on the “inside track”,… so to speak. I could see where that could influence your leanings. We should all be so lucky to have someone to get the inside scoop from. I think that if we had more exposure to the higher end stuff,.. that we might all give it a bit more consideration. Maybe not. I for one have never discounted going there.
The very best of wishes going forward.
Well said. We only live once. And I try my darndest to get the most I can out of life.
Thanks GF and Chris. I really appreciate the input from contributors here. The perspectives that come from experience along with the articles are valuable. I can’t think of a better source for knowledge on airguns.
I’m reading through the series “How does rifling twist rate affect velocity and/or accuracy?” and marvelling. I always go through the comment sections and find pearls as well.
It’s just what happens here. What more can I say.
Chris and all,
I moved down here to get more room for comments.
The last inch or less of the barrel at the muzzel will determine the spin on the pellet in flight. The rest of the barrel does not affect the spin rate in flight. How the pellet gets to that last inch of barrel does affect the stress/shear on the pellet.
There are two factors that affect the radial acceleration (change in rpm) of the pellet. A barrel with a constant twist rate has only one factor the change in velocity fps (acceleration). In a barrel with a variable twist rate you have two factors the change in feet per second with time and the change in twist rate per length. If they both occur at the same time that will maximize the change in spin (rotational acceleration) putting maximum stress on the pellet.
My graph was to show where to change the twist rate for the least stresses on the pellet. The graph shows that would the worst place would be at about three inches from the breech. But there is two parts to the problem. If you let the pellet get to a high velocity before starting the twist rate or changing the twist rate that also creates acceleration of the spin and stress on the pellet.
In any case my graph shows a need for more data points. Then I would develop a rpm vs inches from the muzzel and rotational acceleration verses inches from the muzzel. Then a variable twist rate could be designed to minimize stress on the pellet in theory.
As Gunfun says you don’t know till you shoot it and see.
Wish I could explain it better.
Thanks for moving the comment down. I think that you explained it very well and you seem to have a good grasp of the operating parameters. I see the point of your graph better now and see how axial stress could factor in.
What did you think of the barrel twisting idea I mentioned (above, at your last posted graph?) As long as the method did not impart a cork screw effect to the entire barrel, I think that it would be a method to gradually increase the twist rate. Perhaps GF1 will weigh in on the idea as he is a machinist.
I think twisting the barrel would reduce the inside diamiter.
At the muzzle it may be used and may also provide a choke.
Only way to know is to try it. A mandrel in the barrel while twisting with heat could work.
Benji-Don and Chris.
That’s exactly how FX makes the smooth twist barrel. It’s a smooth bore then they stick the muzzle end of the barrel in a machine and it twists the barrel.
Search the FX factory tour video. It takes you through the factory and shows some pretty cool operations they do.
Since we are down here now. Explain what you said above. I must of overlooked it.
Just look below the last graph that Benji-Don posted above. It is about twisting the barrel, cold or hot, to increase the twist rate towards the muzzle end. A gradual increase, but significant.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. Like Benji-Don said. The last part of the barrel where the pellet exits is what matters. As long as that part of the barrel bore is slightly smaller than the rest of the barrel so it would size the pellet before it leaves the barrel. It should work fine. If the bore was bigger at the muzzle end then the rest of the barrel. That could cause a accuracy problem.
Chris and all.
I just posted a link below of the FX factory tour if your interested in seeing it.
When you say variable twist rate. Do you mean the twist rate increases as it moves down the barrel?
Or by variable twist rate do you mean like the FX smooth twist barrel? It being a smooth bore with the last inches of the barrel is rifled?
I think the data could be used in all cases where the twist rate changes anywhere in the barrel. I think it will show the muzzel end is the best I dont know though would need more data.
The main thing for me is this discussion has cleared out a few cobwebs from my brain, fun discussion. This woud take many hours to do a good job and then it would only apply to one power plant and gun. And would still be unknown results until the actual shooting begins.
I would bet FX has already gone through this exercise on their barrels. Otherwise it would be many trial and error tests.
I just had another thought knowing where to change the twist rate could also alow for less aggressive rifling and less deformation of the pellet. I bet the high end companies are already doing this if they make variable twitst barrels.
Yep could be.
And here’s the FX factory tour video. There’s a more detailed video out there than this one. But it’s sponsored by a competitor to Pyramyd Air. So I’ll post this one. If you want to see more you know what to search for.
That is a nice factory, I skimmed through the video. Will study more later. The war department is reminding me i have chores to do. Be back later.
Make sure you watch the whole factory tour video. Some interesting info in there about velocity and regulator settings as well as barrel deburring and polishing the smooth bore.
Oh, and another thing I don’t think you can let the pellet get up to speed in the barrel and then instantly start a high twist rate the pellet could not start the spin that quick without striping out the threads from the rifling. The change in rifling must be gradual once the pellet has a high velocity. At least that is my two cents.
Did you check out the FX factory tour video? It’s got some things in it we have been talking about.
Here’s a short animated video of a pellet fired from a FX smooth twist barrel.
I checked out both videos. Thanks for the links. That makes it easy to watch without the search hassles. Both worth the watch.
Dang it dude!,… you and Idaho got me thinking all “high end” now! 😉
But remember they fail just like a lower dollar gun. They aren’t made with top secret o-rings or seals or materials.
Put it this way I had 2 different semi-auto FX Monsoons. One worked flawless. The other would do a rapid leak down out the barrel which is the valve top hat seal and seat. And you never knew when it would happen. I even sent it back in for repair because it was still under warranty. They sent it back to me and it still failed. And it was gone for a whole month when they had it. Needless to say they allowed me to trade it in on a different gun of a different brand which I think was a Weirauch. But don’t remember what one now. That’s what happens when you own to many guns. 🙂
And I will have to say that I have just as much fun shooting my $150 WildFire rapid fire as I did the good operating Monsoon I had that costed up at $1500.
Hmm how many WildFire’s can I buy for $1500? 😉
Well,… you ARE a “been there, done that”,.. sort of air gunner. I do suppose that there might be a lesson in there somewhere. A good word of caution at the very least anyways. 😉 Noted.
Still,…it is OH! so tempting. My eye’s have always been bigger than my stomach,…. or to put it another way,… I do appreciate and savor finely made things.
You know what tore me up about the situation of sending it back. One thing how long it took to get back and still didn’t work right. And to top it all off I know how to work on air guns and I had to send it in for the repairs.
And what are you talking about. You already have one of the higher end air guns out there. It’s not a PCP but it’s definitely a fine made gun. And that’s the AirArms TX you have. 😉
Yes, I do love it and it is nice. The LGU is super as well. “Someone”,… whom shall remain nameless,… got me into PCP’s. Each to their own,.. but I am fully hooked on PCP’s,… be it the lowly,.. but very accurate Maximus or the mid range M-rod.
Yes, there is a bit more to getting into PCP’s,… but there is no comparison.
On your pump,… if I was P.A.,… I would be all over that. In fact,.. somebody from P.A would be on a plane checking out a potential exclusive deal. That one will not be on the “down low” very long. Somebody will be hopping all over that very soon.
Out’a here for now. Back to work in the AM,… but have a paid 11 day shutdown coming up over Christmas and New Years. Idol time,…. that could be a (very)dangerous thing! 😉 Later,….. Chris
I have to work 3 days inbetween Christmas and New year’s. So I’m definitely happy for the time off.
And my dangerous time is when that income tax refund happens. Of course after the wife and daughters get something first. 🙂
I got to thinking about my barrel twisting idea. I have used tie-wire pliers a lot in the past and the first thing that gets the twist is the point where the wire is held at the nut. Given that, and my idea, it might be more beneficial to start at the muzzle end. I think you know already what I am talking about and how my original idea might not work the best to induce an increased twist rate at the muzzle end. Just an after thought.
If I was to try it that’s where I would start. The muzzle end.
And did you see in the video of the factory tour where the worker was straightening the barrel by bending it and then spinning it for run out with the dail indicator?
Oh and we have one of the Tsugami cnc’s at work like what FX shows in the video.
Yes,.. all points in the video were noted. I could get myself in real trouble, real fast,.. by watching the higher end info-mercials. No doubt that I will go there one day. I do admire Idaho’s diligence in research. Very much the same way that I would approach a major purchase. I could easily see 2 months of research.
Later on I’m going to get a high end pcp after I get my Wing Shot and a AirForce .25 Condor SS.
It will probably be a regulated Daystate in .30 or .35 caliber if such a gun exists. But for sure whatever I get will be a big bore pcp. And I’m not after high fpe for killing. I’m looking for accuracy out to at least 150 yards and adequate velocity for accuracy at that distance. But would like something that can hold a couple inches and even 3 inches out at 200 yards would be great.
And wow what a weekend blog. Over 200 comments.
I wonder how many blogs throughout the years made it over 200 comments.
One I recall without looking if I remember right was when BB did the blogs on the $100 pcp.
Does anyone remember if there was any more over 200?
We have had over 400 comments to a blog in the past. Never on one weekend though.
That is alot regardless.
I don’t recall that happening on other blogs or forums.
There is participation that happens on the others. But usually never like here.
I think that could be considered a nice Christmas present. Don’t you. 🙂
It certainly is. When I tell people that this is the largest and most active blog in the shooting sports I’m sure they think I’m exaggerating, but this proves it. 😉
I believe. 🙂
Old .22 single shot rifles rock! I eagerly look forward to seeing your Remington up through its paces. =>
My barn gun (even though I have no barn, just a shed) is this old Geco Carabiner model 1919.
I bought it for $50 almost 40 years ago; it’s 40″ long with a 23″ barrel and weighs about 2-1/2 lbs.
It shoots Remington .22 LR subsonic hollow points to point-of-aim at 50 feet, and, thankfully,
it also happens to shoot CCI CB caps to the same point-of-aim at that range.
It has taken out its share of pests over the years and still shoots great;
I used it yesterday to ‘kill’ these evil tin cans (how do I know they’re evil? It says so right on the cans =>);
our backyard is full of these things, so thank God I have this tin-can-eliminator!
Wishing a Merry Christmas to you,