by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Remington’s model 33 single shot .22 was their first bolt action rimfire.
This report covers:
- New versus old
- Irony
- The second test
- Summary
Remember what I wrote about the range last Friday — how everything went bad for me? Well I did manage to test my HW85 and one other rifle. That rifle was my venerable Remington model 33.
New versus old
You may recall that I bought a nice example of the Remington 33, to hopefully replace my current rifle that’s rusted up. I was thinking that with a better barrel the new rifle would really show up the tired old bolt action I only bought to burn up discarded range ammo.
I was out on the 50-yard range, so I decided to try my luck with both rifles shooting the CCI standard velocity long rifle cartridge. First up was the old rust 33. You will recall that I had cleaned the barrel of this old beater for the first time in anticipation of this test. Well, I had forgotten to bring my reading glasses to the range, so the sights were quite blurry. Still, I did my very best and with the tired old 33 I put 5 into 2.293-inches at 50 yards. The rounds hit a little above the bull I was aiming at. That was a good start, so now let’s switch over to the nicer 33 I just bought.
My old rusty Remington 33 put 5 CCI bullets into 2.293-inches at 50 yards.
Five CCI standard speed rounds from the new Remington 33 landed in — well, I don’t actually have a target to show you. They hit a lot higher than the bull I was aiming at. In fact, one round actually hit the target above the one I was shooting at. Remember that extra shot on the HW85 target last week?
The hole with the circle around it, marked “No” is a hole from the new Remington 33. It was fired at a target about 8 inches below.
I will guess the new 33 put five rounds into 5 or 6 inches at 50 yards. I didn’t save the target, but I know it wasn’t as good as the target from the old 33 that’s shown above.
Irony
Okay. Now you can laugh. My rusty old rifle that I bought cheap to shoot up range-found ammo out-shoots the same model rifle in very nice shape that I paid a lot more for. The irony is not lost on me.
But one test does not a conclusion make. So, I decided to test both rifles at 10 meters with the Aguila CB caps that started this quest many weeks ago. Surely that would tell me something!
The second test
The second test was conducted indoors, at 10 meters off a sandbag rest. This time I did have the reading glasses that enable me to see both sights and the target. I shot the Aguila CB cap that has a priming charge, only. It’s as quiet as a low-powered breakbarrel and we discovered in Part 1 that it propels its 20-grain bullet at 391 f.p.s. for an average 6.79 foot pounds.
First up was the old 33. Three of the rounds didn’t go off on the first strike of the firing pin. I had to extract them and turn the cartridges to let the firing pin hit the rim in a different place the second time. All went off on the second try.
This rifle managed to put 10 rounds into 0.593-inches at 10 meters. I have to say — that is very accurate! And this rifle is already sighted-in with this round. That’s exactly what I was hoping for in a go-to rimfire using CB caps.
My tired old Remington 33 put 10 rounds into 0.593-inches at 10 meters. I guess it can shoot!
Ahh, but would the new 33 beat it? Well, on the first shot I hear a definite pause between the ignition of the round and the bullet impacting the trap. Plain talk — it sounded weak. Really weak!
Nine shots later I had the answer. The new Remington 33 put 10 rounds into 2.609-inches, making a very vertical group. I can tell just by looking at this group that the rounds are not igniting uniformly, which causes differences in their velocity. In short, this rifle will never be accurate with any ammo. It also grouped vertically at the 50-yard range.
Ten Colibri CB caps made this vertical group that measures 2.609-inches at 10 meters. This isn’t even close to what the older rifle will do.
The question is — could I do anything about it? I wondered what would happen if I swapped the bolt from the old rifle in the action of the new one. Would that give better ignition?
This time I decided to shoot just 5 times, and then see what sort of group I got. Well, five was all it took. The new rifle with the old rifle bolt installed put 5 Colibri CB caps into a very vertical 4.117 inches at 10 meters. I don’t need to test any farther. The new rifle is not as accurate as the old one, and swapping the bolts only made it worse.
The nail in the coffin. When I used the old bolt in the new rifle, 5 rounds landed in 4.117-inches at 10 meters.
Summary
I started this series to show how a .22 CB cap does in a single shot rifle. A side trip along the way — where I bought what I thought was a better version of the same rifle — taught me that sometimes accurate guns are simply that — accurate beyond any explanation.
This series was an eye-opener for me. I hope it was for you, as well. I don’t often have results as humbling as these, and I’m glad you got to see them as they unfolded.
B.B.,
Just spitballin’, but do you think a new firing pin spring may help?
David H.
David,
That was my thought.
B.B.
B.B.,
Just goes to show you can’t judge a gun’s accuracy by its polish. I recall the Don Robinson BSA Airsporter ( /blog/2014/12/don-robinson-bsa-airsporter-part-3/ ) which looked fit for a King but whose accuracy is only at par with a regular BSA Airsporter. Do you happen to have any possible tips on what to look for in a barrel for best potential accuracy?
Siraniko
PS: Odd Character Section: New versus old Second paragraph, sixth sentence: “†he (The) rounds hit a little above the bull I was aiming at.”
Siraniko,
My best tip is this — Never get rid of a shooter!
Fixed the text. Thanks,
B.B.
Yes, sometimes you just can’t beat the old ugly ones.
We call them “an ugly girl that kisses good”
I have a early Stevens crackshot 26, that was found in a abandoned storage unit, it is old and rusty, but it shoots very well.
So, now comes the silver dollar question.
You bought the new one to possibly replace the old one, and possibly make Otho a happy boy since he liked the way the old one performed compared to his mossbergs.
Will Otho get the old one, and you make a multi-part blog on what could be done to possibly make the new one shoot better?
Or will Otho get the honor of tinkering and cussing the newer one..
45Bravo,
Everything is on hold at the moment.
B.B.
B.B.
Whoops…
-Y
I don’t no why. But it just dawned on me.
My FWB 300 is just like your old 33. It’s not the prettiest gun I ever owned. But it sure knows how to shoot.
BB,
That old gal wasn’t going to be showed up by that young, pretty thing.
The newer one probably was not made the same way as the older one. The newer one may not even be a Remington. I know Mossberg has made and still makes quite a bit firearms and components for other companies, including Remington. You might end up giving Otho another Mossberg. 😉
B.B.,
I am confused,… not an uncommon thing,… 😉 That 2nd picture has a pellet shown instead of a firearm round.
Chris,
Yes. That is a target from the HW85 report. A pellet is correct for 10 of the 11 holes. That’s why the No is there.
B.B.
B.B.,
Oooops on my part. You did mention the HW. I was only a half cup in on my usual weekend AM 3 cups. 😉
Chris
(I thought firing pin too, but don’t know enough on firearms to comment. It at least ought to be able to fire/ignite consistently. That would be a start. I don’t think you can rule out the new one yet.)
Chris, still Friday here….
Jerry C.,
My “weekend is a bit different. I work 4 tens M-Th.. I am pretty whooped by Th. end, but 3 days off are nice. Saves gas, (45 min. 1 way) and wear on the Rav4. It is actually quite the trend and there are many real and perceived benefits to the employees. Plus, it saves the employer money on utilities. Win/win for all. Fri. OT is an option and you still have 2 off.
I just figured that someone would question that,… 😉
Chris
We use to work that for years. I loved it. The 10 hours was a bummer sometimes. But it was nice being off 3 days and the option for overtime on Friday. Then so even working Friday still had 2 days off. And yep on the other things you mentioned.
Changing the bolt didn’t help. Maybe the crown on the new one has a burr.
Jonah,
I just looked at the crown under magnification. It looks perfect.
B.B.
But is the crown perfectly level? When I did the recrown article on the Crosman/Benjamin Nitro, I found that the crown was uneven. Put a straightedge on it and shine a light across the crown. See if there’s light shining between the straightedge and the crown Just for giggles.
Fred,
The muzzle is rounded so that won’t work. The crown is down from the end of the muzzle.
B.B.
I borrowed my brother’s vintage Marlin 39A years ago, and tried various CB .22 rounds. None were as accurate as my BAM .22 springer in backyard plinking. The same Marlin produced good groups (2 MOA) at 50 yds with CCI MM rounds at the range.
After being in this hobby for about 20 years, I now realize that an accurate gun is as much luck of the draw as anything. If you find an extraordinary gun you had better hang onto it. Just think of all the guns that we wanted to love but that were just not accurate.
David Enoch
B.B.,
The barrel of this one might not like the CCI standard velocity long rifle cartridge nor the Colibri CB caps. You might have to look for other brands and type of .22 rimfire to find what it likes.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I thought about that. The Colibris are the weakest CB caps on the market and I have hoped to use them, but not in this gun.
B.B,.
Siraniko,
Maybe I need a test of this new 33 with all the different CB caps I can find?
B.B.
I have not had good luck at all with the cb cap Colibri’s with any of my rimfire rifles. And both of my rimfire are very accurate with the right bullet.
But I did find some CCI caps that were accurate in both guns. They didn’t cycle in the semi-auto Winchester but they were accurate.
B.B.,
now you are talking. I’ve shot many different kinds of CB’s through the years. Personally I found Remington CBee to be the best. Now you can get CB’s in LR (Long) brass. They used to be mostly Short brass. I too buy and shoot the Colibris, but I have found they are not as accurate. We use the word CB too loosely. When looking at CB’s, I’ve had different ones claim 420 fps (even less with the RWS CB Caps) all the way up to 740 fps. Auguila makes two different ones. Colibris (420 fps) and Super Colibris (590 fps). Each having different velocities. I’d be careful shooting the 420 or less fps out of a rifle. It’s never happened to me, but I have heard people having the bullet stick in the barrel.
Doc
Doc,
This entire report has been about these two rifles shooting the low velocity Colibris. I got an average 396 f.p.s. in the older rifle.
B.B.
BB
I knew that’s what you was after on this report.
But here’s a thought. Most of our air guns from pumpers to the HW30s and on to the .22 and .25 caliber pcp’s. The velocity range for the most part is in the 600-800 fps range with the normal grain pellets we use.
I don’t think your trying to compare air gun shooting to .22 rimfire shooting. But I think that there is more relation of air guns and rimfire .22 with the rimfire using bullets like I and others have mentioned. Like the CCI 710 fps 40 grain long rifle and CCI 710 fps 29 grain short and even the ones mentioned in the 500 fps range.
The Colibri’s you shot are terrible in my opinion. Very inconsistent from box of 50 to box of 50. Let alone bullet to bullet. I have encountered what you said about one shot sounding stronger than the next and vise versa. I have even seen them tumble in flight and corkscrew to the target. They could of hit anywhere on the paper in a 360° circumference depending on the timing of where they were at when they hit.
Well you know how some pellets work in air guns and some don’t. That’s what I think about the Colibri’s. They are the not working bullet.
You should really give both guns a better chance and at least try the little bit higher velocity rounds with the traditional bullet shape. Oh and that’s another thing. The Colibri’s are pointed wich I’m kind of thinking that’s probably not the best thing in this case either. And look how short the actual bullet is. To me it looks like all the weight is to the back of those pointed Colibri bullets.
I guess I should of broke this comment up and distributed at points throughout the day but figured I would get out there now.
B.B.
Oh I understand. I still shoot those out of my old bolt Marlin too. I just threw that lawyer caution in there cause I don’t want someone getting a bullet stuck then trying to say I mislead them.
Doc
Siraniko
Here’s the CCI’s I’m talking about. These are what I prefer over the Colibri. But not my favorite because they won’t cycle in my tube fed semi-auto Winchester. But they do work fine in my bolt action Savage 93.
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0026
Here’s the CCI’s I prefer. They are still very quiet and they make good energy plus cycle in my semi-auto Winchester 190. I’m thinking the legnth of the long rifle size is what makes them cycle in the semi-auto verses the shorts. But when I shoot these they remind me alot of my .25 Marauder shooting 34.95 grain JSB’s.
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=3&loadNo=960
And check this out. CCI must be paying attention to the air gun world. This is in the discription on the second link I posted. I’ll have to go back and look if they say that also on the first link.
“Better performance than an air rifle with similar noise levels”
Siraniko
And here is probably the two most accurate .22 rimfire rounds in my bolt and semi-auto .22’s
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=5&loadNo=0032
This is the one I prefer over these two. The Aguilla 60 grain 950 fps sub sonic sniper round.
https://www.aguilaammo.com/rimfire/#Special
But the CCI 40 grain 710 fps long rifles are the ones I shoot the most. I have other different brands of .22 longe rifle 1100-1200 fps 40 grain rounds but I like the quiet rounds better. I don’t like that crack. Not that it matters where I live. But just don’t want the extra noise if I don’t need it.
The link didn’t work right on the 60 grain Sub Sonic Sniper’s. You have to click on special products. The sniper’s are right at the top of the page.
Gunfun1,
I appreciate the difference between the loads. I don’t quite get what Aguila is claiming with, “The faster barrel twist of the projectile ensures accuracy for target shooting and small-game hunting without excessive noise.” That’s Marketing talking as far as I know. They are significantly more powerful than the Colibri CB caps.
Siraniko
Siraniko
I didn’t understand what Aguilla meant by “the faster barrel twist of the projectile” either.
B.B.,
As I am sure, you are well aware of the fact that inconsistent ignition in any firearm is detrimental to accuracy. In this case it may be caused by a weak striker spring, worn firing pin or excessive headspace. My best guess would be one or both of the last two possibilities. Since you have two rifles to compare, examine the firing pins under magnification for any signs of wear and length of protrusion beyond the boltface. Since most bolt action rimfires use the bolt handle as the sole locking lug, take a flat feelers gauge and measure the gap between the rear of the bolt handle where it butts up against the receiver when the bolt is fully closed. If the gap is excessive, you could even try firing the rifle with a shim in place which would decrease the headspace by forcing the bolt forward in closer proximity to the breech.
FYI, many years ago, I had some .22 short special gallery loads which fired a 15 grain frangible bullet at a MV of 1710 fps, are you familiar with them? I believe that the bullet was magnetic and composed of sintered iron in some sort of binder. They were not quiet!
Bugbuster
Bugbuster,
I have a box of those frangible shorts. I think the binder is part wax.
B.B.
Bugbuster
I would like to try them just for the heck of it plinking.
With the disclaimer that I have no experience with these particular rifles, I have to agree with Bugbuster about the headspace being a potential cause for the ignition problems. The fact that the performance didn’t improve when the bolt was exchanged implies that the firing pin, spring and (possible) dried-up grease where not the culprits. So, that leaves too much distance for the pin to reach the primer with a solid blow.
Another WAG is a badly damaged barrel. I once saw a drop-dead beautiful set-trigger Mannlicher stocked Mauser rifle shooting like crap. It turns that someone had fired a second bullet over an stuck one. You could see the expanded ring about 3 inches from the muzzle. FWIW.
BB,
If you found some brands of standard velocity ammo that shot well in your new gun, would that satisfy your needs enough that Otho could use the other for his pesting?
Recently I managed to demonstrate to a buddy of mine, who has done little shooting in his lifetime, that .22s are very picky about what they shoot and sometimes a dozen or more brands and varieties have to be tried to find an accurate one. He had bought this gun and fired a box of some kind of ammo out of it and found it sorely lacking. When he told me how disappointed he was I told him about the nature of the beast he was dealing with and we set up a day to do some testing. I have small batches of about 30 different cartridges that I put together just to test out newly acquired guns. That day we got groups as large as 5″ at 50 yards (that was the ammo that he bought for the gun) and finally got a 1″ group after shooting about 12 different offerings from my sample case. He said that he never would have believed the ammo could make that kind of difference if he hadn’t shot those groups himself. He had believed, as I’m sure some others do, that the cartridges are manufactured to some international standard that has to be met to be officially called a .22LR and that that standard assured that one cartridge was the equivalent of another in any given configuration ( round nosed, truncated, hollow point, etc) and if your gun shot one brand of standard RN poorly then it would shoot them all poorly and you would have to try hollowpoints or something else. Now he knows a couple of brands that he can get good results with and he’s much happier with the gun.
I know that’s not news to anyone that has been involved with shooting for as long as you, but are you just interested in shooting CB caps and no other or will you be looking at other types of ammo ( outside of this blog ) that this gun might be able to shoot accurately? I feel sorry for the little fella and want it to have its chance to shine! 🙂
Halfstep,
I will do a lot more testing of this rifle. I understand all you said and have seen it myself.
B.B.
Halfstep
How did your crowning go?
And can you post a picture below of the crown on your gun with that ring/groove around the rifling below the crown. I was telling Chris about it below. I couldn’t remember what blog report you posted it on.
GF1,
I haven’t recrowned (again) since I took those pics. I did look at the centerdrill that I used and I feel certain that it didn’t cause that ring. For one thing the pilot section of the drill is much too small in diameter to have been nicking the inside of the barrel. For another, the cutting edge of the pilot section would have made the mark much further inside the barrel. I think it was there from the factory and I plan on parting it off and recrowning it this weekend if I can make it out to my garage without busting my….. on the ice and snow.
Anyway here’s the pic.
Halfstep thanks for posting the link pictures.
And I agree. Everything you said makes me believe that the groove was there already.
But one question. Have you shot it after you did work on it. Maybe that groove/ring really don’t affect acurracy.
GF1,
I have been shooting it today with pretty bad results with the pellets that I’m using at 12 yards. I’m not really concentrating on accuracy, though, if I’m being honest.I think I told you that I wanted to reduce the velocity on this gun to see if I could find a pellet that shot better at a slower velocity or maybe just get more shots on a fill or get less variation between shots. ( And don’t you say it. I’m NOT buyin’ a regulator if I can find a no cost way to improve the air management a little on this gun! 😉 )
It occurred to me this morning that, because of the way the barrel goes into the receiver and the transfer port is in the receiver, I don’t have to make a smaller transfer port to test my theories. All I have to do is rotate the barrel’s port out of alignment with the receiver’s port a little and that will give me an adjustable port to play with. So that’s what I’ve been doing on this day full of “Wintery Mix” in the Ohio Valley.
Here is a graphic of Hobby pellets before and after rotating the barrel a little.
Halfstep
Nice idea with rotating the barrel.
And yep remember what I said about that the Crosman 1720T that it comes with two different transfer port orafices.
Small inside diameter more shots less velocity.
Big inside diameter less shots more velocity.
And yep should get less variation in velocity with smaller hole.
The smaller hole controls the air flow better.
Halfstep,
Brilliant idea on the barrel rotation! One thing that stands out to me is the transfer port ought to have a seal on both ends. The M-rod does and the barrel can not be removed or turned because the port “enters” both the breech and the barrel. You obviously made it work, so the Stormrider must have a different type of set up in that area.
At any rate,.. way to go! That is some nice “thinking outside the box”. Also, the first I have ever heard of it being done.
Chris USA,
The o-rings on either side of the transfer port orifice seals it to the reservoir/valve assembly and the bottom of the receiver, which has a holed drilled through it. That hole lines up with a hole in the barrel. On the breech side of that hole is an o-ring going around the barrel and on the muzzle side of the hole is an identical o-ring around the barrel. Because the seals are AROUND the barrel you can turn the barrel and it still stays sealed. If you look at those pics that I posted here a couple of days ago you can see what I’m talking about. Just as you pointed out, it is a different configuration than any of the other guns that I’ve been into.
I’m going to be taking it apart later to maybe mod the striker spring and to Loctite the trigger adjustment screw, now that I know I like where it’s set. The threads are pretty loose on it and I feel like it will eventually back out on me. While I’m in there I’m going to see if it would be possible to cross drill and tap that transfer hole in the receiver to accept a needle valve so I can throttle the air through the hole with more precision. It may not be possible to do or I may just decide it’s not worth the effort, but It’s something that my gears have been grinding on, if you know what I mean. 🙂
Halfstep,
Thank you for that description. I will look for the pics. Great idea on the port metering. Cool idea. I like the way you think.
Yes, I do know about “gears grinding”. 😉 I have had many an idea consume my thoughts. Usually, after much thought and then I move onto the execution phase,… everything works out just great. All of the possible problems and scenarios have already been run through in my head.
….and this is with Crosman Premier HPs.
And if you guys find any of my graphics interesting or helpful, feel free to copy and save them someplace where you can find them. I knew what GF1 was referring to because it was recent. After I’ve slept a few nights thing aren’t as well remembered. 🙂
Halfstep
I meant accuracy wise after the crown job.
I want to know if the gun is more accurate.
GF1,
I tested a few pellets and if there was any improvement it was so little that you couldn’t really credit it to the recrowning. I think I said earlier that I looked at the original crown and didn’t see any obvious problems with it. I recrowned it “just in case” and because I wanted to try my hand at it. I didn’t notice the ring inside the barrel until I started putting that graphic together. My next move will be to part the barrel off behind that ring, then re-recrown it. May not make any difference on the accuracy but at least I’ll have that eliminated.
Halfstep
Ok was wondering if it mad any change.
And yep agree. What that barrel off some and re-crown it.
I do hope that helps accuracy.
oops, forgot the pic!!
GF1,
I just realized that I confused “convexed” with ” concaved” on that graphic. Here it is corrected.
B.B.
I had an old Winchester 61 pump 22 years ago. It was one of those guns that couldn’t be explained. If you point the gun at a target and think it, it would hit. Well maybe not that good, but you know what I mean. It was rusty colored, the stock finish was old and wore, the gun was very loose, but boy would it shoot. I made some unreal shots with it. It would shoot cb’s to LR, didn’t matter, as all were accurate. Well cleaning it one day I saw something about half way down the barrel. Like a groove. I took it to a trusted dealer/gunsmith. He said it had a “ring” in the rifling. Not good. Yet he was shocked when I told him how good it shot. It’s like he didn’t believe me. He had a very nice Win. Mod. 61 pump hanging on the wall, waiting for a collector to buy it. I talked him in to trading my wore 61 for it (with some boot of coarse). I was never so let down. The nice pretty pump wasn’t accurate at all. I hated it and later sold it. I lost no money as Win. 61’s it that shape bring good money. The guy I traded the old one to shot it before he sold it. He too couldn’t believe how accurate it was. I long for that old ugly gun.
Doc
Doc,
Oh no! Not the “guns I let get away!” Don’t get me started!
B.B.
Doc,
A “ring” ehh? That is interesting. Perhaps whatever that “ring” was, could be a barrel making/accuracy tip,.. whether it be intentional or unintentional. Perhaps a “choke” of sorts? Send the bullet down the barrel into a midway “restrictor/sizer/reducer of sorts,.. and then send it down the barrel the rest of the way? Perhaps we shall never know.
B.B.,
Have you ever heard of such a concept?
Chris
Halfstep posted awhile back of the crown on his China Diana.
I don’t remember what blog report it was on. Can’t find it. But if Halfstep posts that picture you can clearly see a ring in the barrel below the crown. That will kill accuracy.
GF1,
That was from a re-crown. I was thinking that Doc might be describing something further down the bore,.. like mid bore. It was just a thought.
Chris
Yep I knew what you meant.
But I think that was already in Halfstep’s barrel before he re-crowned it. Not sure.
But yep to me not good. Anything the head or skirt of the pellet could snag on has to interrupt the natural movement of the pellet.
And thinking more on this. I bet a barrel rifling irregularity would possibly affect a pellet more than a pellet. Bullets have that boat tail design and the area of the bullet diameter has a bigger contact area than a pellet small head legnth and skirt contact points.
I’m sure it probably affects a bullet too. But I bet it affects a pellet more.
Chris USA,
The only ringing, as regards firearms barrels, that I’ve ever heard of is the result of firing the gun-a shotgun in all the cases that I recall- with a restriction in the barrel. Snow or water can fill a barrel to an extent that the pressure developed upon firing will cause an outward bulge in the barrel that is referred to as ringing. I’ve read that firing a slug through a full choked shotgun will cause the same effect but I have seen YouTube videos that disprove that.
When I was a teenager I had a Remington 11-48 20 gage auto shotgun. It was a great gun and I used it for rabbits and pheasants. I used it also for hunting deer with slugs. I always checked out my accuracy in the gravel pit across the road before going deer hunting. It had a modified choke and shot slugs very accurately, at least for a shotgun with only a front bead sight. I could put my shots into a 6″ inch or so group at 50 yards with. Well, one day I was out hunting deer and jumped a trophy buck out in an open field where he had been lying. He was only approximately 30 yards away and standing broadside. He just stood there letting me take a bead on him. When I shot he ran off. I missed him completely. I couldn’t believe it. When I got home I took my gun over to gravel pit again to check out why I missed that easy shot. To my surprise the slugs were hitting 12″ high!
I took the gun to a trusted gunsmith to have it checked out. He found that the barrel had been bent and straightened it back out again. The only thing I could attribute the bent barrel too was that someone had knocked the gun over when it was sitting in the corner in the house. After the straightening I could look thru the barrel and see ring about midway down where the barrel had been
had been bent back into shape. After that the gun shot slugs better than ever though.
Chris,
I don’t think the ring was intentional. Gunsmiths say it’s bad. There was no bulge in the barrel, but looking down the barrel (from the breach to the muzzle) you could see rifling, then a perfect looking circle (raised like rifling only in a circle) then back to rifling. It was not quite half way, more like a third of the way down the barrel. The gunsmith/dealer I traded it to also wanted to keep it cause it was so darn accurate, But the “ring” bothered him also. So he sold it.
Doc
Doc,
Thank you for that additional insight. That is quite the curiosity.
B.B.,
I have seen this often in black powder muzzel loaders. Even when the barrels are rusted in the bore.
Maybe the nice looker needs a good brushing and a polishing with bore paste? If the bolt on the new one does not close snug it may have a poorly machined breech especially where the handle locks in the notch.
My 33 is not accurate with any ammo I have tried. I think you found a jewel in the ugly one. I think I know what will happen to it.
Don
Dn,.
I once had an original Green Mountain muzzleloader that was probably made before the Civil War. It was a plain rifle with a heavy barrel of about .54 caliber. It shot .53 caliber lead balls with a tight pillow ticking patch real well. At 50 yards I could sometimes put five into about 2 inches. Never should have gotten rid of that one!
B.B.
B.B.,
I really enjoy shooting the old or old style muzzleloaders, but they are a lot of work. That was good shooting. Some of those Green Mountain muzzleloaders could really reach out. I could keep round balls at around 6 inch groups with my double set trigger Hawkins at 100 yards but that was the best I could do. The combinations of ball diameter and patch material was almost infinite. I also use pillow ticking most of the time. My gun would not shoot miniballs or bullets any better that round balls. That was a long time ago in another life almost, I was in a black powder club in Lancaster California. We met once a week and had a match once a month if I remember right.
I wont say I collect guns but when I get one I almost never let go. I guess that makes me a hoarder.
Don
Benji-Don
How’s the WildFire going. Still holding air?
GF1,
My WildFire holds air now at 1800 psi where before it was 1000 psi. That makes it usable for now. The only change has been the tape I put on the transfer tube. That points to the tube moving in the slot in the receiver under pressure, I would say. So it is good to go for now. If I fill to 2000 I can hear it leaking (can’t tell where) and it will stop at 1800 psi and hold there.
My best pellets so far are the RWS Hobby wadcutters at 7.0 gr. They are doing very good vertically but have a spread horizontally. I think it is the open sights and my eyes I don’t like glowing plastic on my front sight It makes the bulls eye hard to see for me. I have a dot sight I will put back on next and do some more tests. I have not found the Daisy Wadcutters yet.
Just got a hearing aid today so that has been a bit of a disruption in my free time. Now that I have it I’ll see how it goes. Doc said I had nerve damage from loud noise. I usually have always wore hearing protection when shooting especially in the last 30 years or so. I think I should have been wearing hearing protection when running a tractor for the last 55 years. Doc said it may not get much worse if I protect my ears in the future guess I better give it a try? Most of my high frequency hearing is gone in both ears.
Don
Don,
What? 😉
B.B.
Dag nab it, I been hearing that a lot lately and it still takes me a while to catch on.
Benji-Don
Yep I would agree that’s from the open sights with the horizontal string.
I guess firearm noise is worse than machine shop noise. I’m surprised I can still hear as well as I do. Plus the noise from farm equipment.
And here’s something to try on your WildFire slow leak to eliminate one more thing. You know how you can get them rubber caps to go over a drill or such. Put one of those on the Foster male fitting on your gun overnight.
If you got a slow leak at the check valve in the fill fitting it will eventually blow the rubber cap off. If it does it over night that’s definitely your slow leak.
GF1,
I was not clear in the leak the WildFire leaks down to 1800 psi and then holds for days. I did not say that I can tell the leak is from the receiver I can tell that much from the sound. It is not the foster fitting. I just cannot confirm it is the tube although that is my bet at this time. It is working good enough, so that I have not ordered any new parts yet. It is now leaking down to 1800 psi very quickly and it is making enough noise to hear it easily. With two people I could use a stethoscope to help locate the leak. It is too fast to fill the gun and then look for the leak. I thought about trying to open the valve on my fill tank just enough to match the leak but I am afraid to look for the leak without keeping an eye on the gauge with the valve open.
I can live with a fill of 1800 psi for now.
Don
Benji-Don
From that discription it sounds like that tube is still pushing out when to much pressure is reached for it to seal. Or I should say hold in place.
Once it bleeds off; like a burst disc in a sense. Then pulls back in and seals. And all happens rapidly like you mentioned.
And like I said in the past. I don’t think that Crosman should of released the WildFire for sale with this kind of working pressure and tune.
I still think they should of went for Co2 fill pressure and tune. The WildFire components are a little different than say 2240 components that can accept some higher fill pressures to a extent.
The thought was good to make the 1077 into a PCP. But they should of known some more engineering was involved.
Yep, agree with all you said. I came up with around 25 pounds of pressure on the tube at 2000 psi. I think the plastic receiver is deforming with that much pressure and letting the tube move out of the o-ring seal at the pressure reservoir tube.
Don
Benji-Don
Yep.
Benji-Don,
I know that you’re not trying to get perfect performance from your gun at this point, so please understand that I am only suggesting this in the event that you want to test more in the future. I have been doing some experimenting lately with using my SCBA tank filled to a certain pressure to simulate a regulator when I hook it to one of my guns and that has this thought at the forefront of my mind. In case it had not occurred to you, once your tank gets down to 2000 psi you should be able to connect it to your gun and search for the leak without worrying about overfilling.
I’m also including a graphic from one of my Wildfires that shows that you are only losing 5 shots (If you use the RWS Basic pellet that I used, which happened to be the best cheap pellet in my gun. They weigh the same as RWS Hobby) by foregoing a 2000 psi fill for a 1800 psi one instead.
Here’s a link to the the Daisy pellet that GF1 is steering you towards. /product/daisy-precision-max-177-cal-7-5-grains-flat-nosed-250ct?p=550
Halfstep,
Good information thanks. I am fine for now at 1800 psi for the fill. I expect it to get worse if it is from the tube pushing against and deforming the plastic. That is why it’s called plastic. Eventually I will order a new valve and transfer tube. At that point I will try to figure a way to better hold the tube in place if a new tube and/or valve doesn’t stop the leak.
Don
Don,
I assume that you have a tried a diluted soap solution applied with a small hobby paint brush?
If it is where you think it is, it sounds as if you have done all that you can do.
Chris,
I checked the gauge and foster fitting with soap, no leaks. I also checked the valve exhaust seal no leaks. I can hear the leak inside the plastic receiver housing. For now it is working good enough. I should get my Maximus barrels for the Crosman 101 any day now. That will take over my time, the WildFire will go to the back burner.
Thanks for the help,
Don
Chris
That would be dangerous on the WildFire. You have to take one side of the receiver off to get into the valve and transfer tube and such.
I think Halfstep mentioned he held things in place someway and tested his with air pressure applied.
Don,
Have you considered the gauge may be leaking? That’s common with the Discovery, whose gauge is also under the forearm. I have read many owners have unscrewed the gauge, wrapped it with fresh teflon tape and put it back, successfully fixing a small leak.
B.B.
BB
Good point on the gauge.
Don,
My first 2 or 3 years working, without hearing protection, among over a hundred mechanical punch press of all sizes caused me to have a constant ringing in my ears. As soon as showed up ( we had annual screenings for hearing lose) the Company Doc told me that I could possibly reverse the damage if I was diligent about protecting my ears going forward. He said that I should definitely be able to prevent it from worsening. Well, he was right about the last part, at least. I wore hearing protection religiously for the next 38 or so years, at work, at the range after I took up shooting and at home in my shop and using a mower or chainsaw and my hearing didn’t degrade much more. And that was in spite of a genetic tendency towards hearing lose in my family. So do yourself a favor and follow your Doc’s advise . You really can keep it from getting worse. The high frequency sounds are picked up by little thin hair nerves in your ear and because they are thin and delicate they damage easily and it’s hard for them to recover. Really low bass sounds are picked up by the fattest nerves and they are the hardest to damage because they are so stout. The human voice lies somewhere in the middle and the nerves that perceive it are thick but not the thickest. They have a better chance of recovering than the high frequency ones, so if you work at it, your hearing may improve. My hearing loss is all in the very high range and manifests itself as a ringing or cricket-chirp sound called tinnitus. They say it can be so bad that it causes insanity. Maybe that’s what’s wrong with me. The only problem it causes me is that if I try to sleep in a quiet room the ringing keeps me awake, so I counter it with a fan or recordings of rain, or just I just set a AM radio to an off channel and listen to static.
Halfstep
One of the guys at work had that chirping. He said the same about it driving you crazy. He said you learn to ignore it.
Halfstep,
Thanks for the information and advice. My hearing loss is pretty bad starting about half way in the voice range. I can hear some voices better than others. With background noise I can’t understand much of a conversation.
Thinking back, I bet my hearing damage is mostly from sitting on a tractor all day with no ear protection. My ears would be ringing when I got off the tractor but I didn’t give it much thought.
Don
Halfstep, Don
I have similar hearing loss. I can hear and understand the news on tv at low volume but a movies with the sountrack has to be turned up to follow the dialog. The damage may have started early I life as hearing protection on the rifle range was not used when I was Iin the military.
On the Wildfire leaking, maybe some epoxy in the breech when the tube is resealed would add the rigidity needed to keep it sealed.
Gerald
Gerald,
Yep on the hearing. I figured there were more than a few on the blog with bad hearing.
I am a big fan of J-B weld. I have been thinking of using it to hold the transfer tube in place. I am sure it would work. It will be a last resort though. Once I use epoxy with the way the tube fits I will not be able to take the two halves of the receiver apart again. Maybe with some wax paper or something between the two halves would work to keep them from sticking.
Thanks
Don
Benji-Don
Good idea about the wax paper with the JB weld.
BB—–My copy of the book “TRAINING RIFLES OF THIRD REICH GERMANY” by Robert Simpson just arrived in the mail. I have been waiting for at least 6 years for this 700@ page book. And best of all, it has 28 pages devoted to air rifles ! It also has 32 pages that cover the 4mm,s. Every collector should have this book in their library. ——Ed
Ed,
Then you’ll like Monday’s blog! 😉
B.B.
BB,
I love when you do that. It gets me out of bed much earlier from the curiosity.
BB —And you will like this book.——Ed
Pretty interesting, BB!
This should increase your love for the old girl,
and it may be time to dump the new one, haha! =D
I’ve got one of these old model 33s that was my grandfather’s. It was his truck gun, aka thrown behind the seat just in case there was a pesky squirrel or something of the sort that needed to be dispatched while he was riding around the farm. It’s a beater, but he always liked it, I’m going to have to shoot it sometime, maybe its a gem I was missing out on.
Auronotcs
Definitely shoot that gun.
Them farmers didn’t carry them kind of guns for no reason. My dad was a farmer.
I’ll be willing to bet if he had it with him it was accurate.
Coduece’s Spinner Test:
Indoors, 41′ (13.66 yds.), Maximus, 15.89 JSB’s, 781 fps avg. per chrony, per Chairgun: 19.02 fpe @ 19 yards. (Recommended is to keep under 20 fpe). I have both the vertical model and the horizontal model.
Worked great! 15-20 spins per hit. I am a very happy camper! 🙂 <ME!
I officially give them the most coveted "CCC" rating! (Not to be confused with the equally coveted rating of "RRR" from Ridge Runner)
Ya'all get ya' some!
Chris,
How are you set up to shoot these indoors without throwing a lot of lead splatter around? Or did you just take a few shots to see how they held up and spun? Are you covered in ice and snow where you are, too?
I was wondering the same about pellet throwing.
Halfstep,
My indoor traps/stops are wood boxes. Steel plate in back. I mounted them to a 4×4. There may have been splatter, but I did not notice any. I think that most/all kept moving and hit the plate in the box.
Yes, 19 F now, 3-4″ snow with ice under. I cleaned off the car 100% and did some shoveling earlier in the AM. The Columbus area got 6-7″ which I am about 1 hr. NE of.
I will be adding an 11 ga. angle that will protect the bearing from an off hit. I will mount to a 2×8 or 2×10 in the future. Both are mounted on a horizontal surface at the moment and both work great. I will also do alternating florescent orange and green paint, fr. and rr., on the paddles in the future.
I had thought of having me a go at them with the .25 M-rod and some 33.95’s. Without checking Chairgun, I suspect that I might be exceeding the 20 fpe upper limit at 41′. Maybe? 😉 .22 and 15.89’s and 41′ was already pushing it.
I am assuming that Coduece did do an upper limit/failure/bend/broken test?,… thus establishing an upper fpe limit. Perhaps he shall see this and weigh in on the topic?
Chris,
Since you mentioned painting the targets I wanted to point out that I have had better luck putting brightly colored Duck brand duct tape on my targets when I can. It doesn’t chip off like paint.
Halfstep,
Good tip. Makes sense. Duck comes in every color/pattern imaginable any more. Thanks! 🙂
Chris
Yep fluorescent colors.
I think I will try some lime green and orange.
Although using camafloge colors for the surroundings can make it more challenging. Those little things is what makes you a better shooter. Especially pesting and such.
Halfstep
I think I like that idea. I do hate repainting them all the time.
Probably will work on the front of my squirrel feild targets as well as the hit and reset paddles on it.
Halfstep,
Upon closer examination,.. I see small chips of paint removed from the brackets. (to the front half and none on the rear half) Very small, but quite a few. So,.. to better answer your question,… there does appear to be significant splatter. I did 4 shots total, 1 each at the small and large paddles.
Anyone see the announcement of a new Benjamin PCP repeater?
Saw it last night but can’t find it today. Can’t recall what they named it.
Idaho,
Oooops,… see below.
Idaho
Is the one your talking about the one Chris just posted? Or is there another also?
Idaho,
This?
/product/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated?m=4569
I do NOT believe this! A (now regulated) Maximus owner and a repeater lover and they have to come out with THIS?!?!
Man,.. I can’t get a break! Another one to add to the “to do” list B.B..
Chris
I will not be getting rid of my .22 Maximus that is regulated with the Huma regulator like I did then you did. The gun just works to good and it’s one of those accurate guns I’m not going to let get away.
But I do see a .177 Benjamin Fortitude in my future for sure. All I have in .177 pcp is my regulated QB79. I’m very excited about this new Benjamin PCP.
And did you check out the shot count with their regulator. They say 90 shots. I’m getting 70 usable shots with my regulated Maximus. From what I see all the time with Crosman/Benjamin pcp’s is they state shots per fill all the time. Not usable shots per fill. So I’m a bit skeptical about the 90 shots per fill.
But all in all I’m very happy to see this gun happen. The next one I’m still waiting for is a Marauder based multi-pump. And if it ever happens in .25 caliber I’ll be all over getting one of those.
GF
Would you say this is a regulated Maximus?
Idaho,
0% doubt.
GF1,
It comes in .22 too. 800 fps as advertised. Mine is doing 781 avg. now as set w/27 even shots.
Maybe BB could have said to us,.. ” hey guys,.. on those regulators,.. you may want to hold off a bit.” Or maybe,.. he could have not,… as in no clue that it was in the pipeline.
Either way,.. I am happy to see it and happy with what I have too. I do love repeaters though. That is what bums me out the most.
Testing will tell,… but I think that I have a new #1 go to when somebody ask what they should get for a first PCP. Standing ovation Benjamin!
Chris
If they got the Maximus barrel fitted inside that shroud I say they got a winner.
And read Idaho’s comment bellow about the warranty. That just blows me away.
And yep I know it says it’s available in .22 caliber too. But I need a .177 pcp just like this for some 40 yard squirrel get’n. I don’t got no quiet .177 pcp’s right now. Makes it easier to sneak up on em for the next customer in line. 🙂
Chris
That’s the one.
Looks like Maurader competition.
Makes me wonder how they will continue to sell other models.
Idaho,
Well,… it is not a Marauder,… but it is a very fine first step. And yes,… it may push people to the lower end. In general, you do get what you pay for. And to your comment on it being exciting at the pace of development,.. yes,.. it is amazing. I did not see a repeater, shrouded, regulated Maximus coming along this quickly.
Chris
And look at the price. You couldn’t build one from a Maximus or Discovery for that price.
Let’s see add the cost of the regulator, the new breech that accepts a magazine, cost of a magazine, a shroud and baffles.
Yep they got a winner here. Watch out Gauntlet. Your in trouble now. 🙂
Chris
I meant to say Gauntlet. Some brain tic I switch those around.
Idaho
Also your talking to Chris and replying to me.
And to put it here in one place to your other question. They did base it off the Maximus/Discovery from what I see.
But I know how Crosman and Benjamin do their guns. The breech will attach to the tube with at least 4 smaller diameter bolts. She that means the air resivoir main tube will be drilled different for the rotary breech. And when Crosman/Benjamin does that they usually change bolt size and locations on the main valve. And the transfer port and barrel will be different for the new breech.
Messed with too many Crosman/Benjamin pcp’s over time. Pretty sure that’s how it will be. So the answer is some components from a Discovery or Maximus will work but not all.
GF and Chris
5 year warranty is impressive. Makes me think they put more into it than the Wildfire.
Definitely need a review.
Idaho
Wow really! Where did you see that? I missed it.
And good for Crosman/Benjamin. From what I know from getting parts from Crosman to build guns that they have excellent customer service and parts availability.
That’s one thing that keeps me from Umarex. Parts availability is like pulling teeth when you try to get something from them. That’s why when I see the Gauntlet I like what I see. But as the saying goes.” Once bit twice shy”. And yes I have Umarex guns I can’t get parts from..
GF
On the Pyramyd ad, right above the $299 price.
I saw on another forum
“It would appear to have a much more solid breech/airtube connection then the Discovery or Maximus.”
It will be very interesting to see if they put an accurate barrel and decent trigger on it.
Idaho,
Now look and see what ya’ started,…… 😉
Chris
OOPS!
It is fun to see the crazy pace for new competing models.
I’d like to see stats on how many of each are sold.
Going by Pyramid most popular lists it would seem Crosman is in the lead, but I imagine have felt the heat from the Gauntlet (got it right this time) and the Urban.
Hoping to see the same happen with with electric pumps and tanks.
Idaho,
Sooooo,…. how are you and your new “toy” coming along? Get that tank yet?
Chris,
Still waiting for the tank. Keeps getting delayed. I guess they must be selling like hotcakes. So for now its just a pretty thing to look at. If it takes too long I may wind up ordering one of those cheap compressors.
Idaho,
(Thanks for the update). You still need a tank with a compressor,.. or at least most people do. GF1 has gone direct. It will get there. I wish you the best and hopefully it will not be much longer.
Cancel and a re-buy is another option if you are not liking the current option/service. Not sure what route you went on that.
Idaho
After reading the specifications.
It’s a single stage. And by the looks it looks Discovery/Maximus trigger to me.
GF
Kinda makes sense. Unlikely they could put in a Marauder trigger at that price, plus why would anyone buy a Marauder?
If they could it would be in a class of its own, assuming the barrel is decent.
I’m wondering if the LW barrels would fit.
Idaho
Right on the point about buying the Marauder.
And on the Lothar Walther barrels. It depends on what breech design the Lothar Walther barrel is suppose to go in. Crosman changed barrel diameters for the Marauder’s and 1720T and such. Also transfer port locations. So you would have to see what’s what you know what I mean.
Idaho,
I am not sure where you were coming from on why anyone would buy a Marauder,… but never the less,… I think that the real question is why would anyone ever buy a Maximus,.. now?
There is probably a marketing lesson in there somewhere. Maybe? 😉
GF1,
Really???? + shroud, + repeater, + regulator, + breech…. I would say that have done squeezed every drop of blood/$ out of all that and still be able to put it out at that price. On the trigger,.. I am happy with mine,… post “tune” of course.
Chris
I don’t know if your questioning this comment or agreeing with it from your reply.
“Chris
And look at the price. You couldn’t build one from a Maximus or Discovery for that price.
Let’s see add the cost of the regulator, the new breech that accepts a magazine, cost of a magazine, a shroud and baffles.
Yep they got a winner here. Watch out Gauntlet. Your in trouble now. “
GF1,
Well,.. it would seem that you were complaining about the Maximus trigger. With the added features, I thought that it was an awesome upgrade at a very good value as offered. The trigger can be MUCH improved (as you know),.. unless they also did something similar to what we have been doing. If they read this blog, they would be stupid to have not done something. What was it?,… 5-6# pull, or something to that effect.
Chris
No. No trigger complaining that I see in my comments.
And yep giving Crosman the at a boy for the new PCP and it’s features. Been saying that it needed done long ago.
And yep had the same thoughts if they modified the trigger like we have. But if they did the set screw mod they would more than likely put it in the owners manual.
Now if they did the spring mod like a did. Then they probably wouldn’t write that in the manual. It would eventually show up on the parts digram though.
Chris
I did not mention anything about the Maximus or Discovery trigger today in my comment about the new Fortitude.
And yes I said that the other day and yes that is still a true statement by me.
Right.
GF1,
I do recall this:
January 12, 2018 at 8:32 pm
Chris
The Discovery and Maximus triggers are junk.
Seriously think about the trigger on your Air Arms Tx 200.
That trigger blows your Maximus trigger away. And that’s not even close to the best trigger. Get you a FWB 300 and then you will know what I mean.
You can only improve something so much. If you keep trying to improve. Sooner or later you may as well of started out designing something better from the start.
** No, it is not a TX200 or a FWB300 trigger,… but it can be made darn good with little effort.
Read above.
Posted in wrong place.
GF1,
Well, I do agree. (If) it is the same trigger as the stock Maximus, then yes, it is not very good. It is what it is. For a stock trigger and what little needs done to make it much better,.. it should be better straight out of the gate.
I think that we agree,… I think? 😉
Chris USA,
If you watch the review of the custom regulated Marauder on AEAC you will hear Steve chastise Crosman pretty hard ( well, hard for Steve. He’s such a nice guy ) because they have such a crappy trigger on it. I think it is either a liability issue or perhaps they can avoid a warranty replacement later on if everyone immediately tears into their gun to fiddle with the trigger as soon as they receive it. Sneaky buggers !
That could give the Gamo Urban a run for it’s money if it is accurate. It has a larger tank, a regulator and comes in .177. All pluses, but it needs to be accurate.
Speaking of the Urban and accuracy, this is for Geo 791, if he’s out there.
Wednesday it was over 60 degrees here so I took my Urban out to do more 50 yard shooting in what I thought was going to be calmer weather than what I shot in the last time I reported my results. I was wrong. The wind was from another direction and it was swirling around, for lack of a better term, and my 50 yard results were all about 1/4″ worse than the last time I shot. I was thinking of your specific requirements with the bird feeders at 25 – 30 yards and decided to move my operation to a spot where a 6′ picket fence gave me absolutely calm conditions to shoot in at a measured 31 yards. I reshot all the pellets that I gave the 50 yard results on the other day and made a chart to show you that you are going to get sub inch groups from most all of those pellets at the distance you told me you would be shooting at.
Halfstep
I remembered something about your China Diana that you did. Your crowning the barrel made me remember it.
But didn’t you do something on the lead in chamfer on the breech end of that barrel.
Something like you chamfered it bigger to help pellet transition to the barrel. Well if you didn’t get that right it’s going to cause accuracy problems possibly. And that would be if the bolt don’t seal good to the barrel.
I believe you said still did. But wanted to know for sure after remembering.
GF1
Had already found the inaccuracy issue before I did that, otherwise I would have just lived with it for fear of messing up an accurate gun. The way this gun is made the bolt seals inside the breech. That’s where the o-ring is and the barrel starts on the other side if the o-ring. I used a conical mounted stone in my lathe to gradually open the barrel’s breech to the size of the hole in the receiver to eliminate the step, then I polished it with all the care I could muster. It feeds nice now and I really think I was careful enough while I was doing it that it didn’t make the accuracy worse.
Halfstep
Yep remember now.
Halfstep,
Yup, I’m still here 🙂 Thank you for posting those results. They are very credible. The 2″ groups at 50 yards are a little disappointing but I’m sure that the wind was a big factor at that distance too. The 31 yard groups are very good and definitely a MOA of a sparrow’s head. I found your post easily by using ctrl+f and entering urban in the search. That’s how I find things in a blog that I’m looking for. Appreciate your taking the time to post these results…especially the 31 yards groups for me specifically. Oh, and it’s not the feeders I am dispatching sparrows from, it’s my bluebird nesting boxes. I have four of them out back. If I’m lucky I may get some tree swallows in one of the boxes. I have to keep the sparrows away from them too. I’ve seen sparrows fight the tree swallows right down to the ground.
Geo
Geo791,
I’m pretty sure that you are the only one I know that has bluebird boxes. Around here Purple Martins and bats are encouraged because of the number of skeeters they can eat. Do bluebirds serve a similar purpose or are they desirable for some other reason? You will also have to explain about the tree swallows. Are you saying that they are desirable as well? The only nesting boxes I have ever put up were for Wood Ducks.
Halfstep,
Some people call them bird houses but in regards to bluebirds we call them nesting boxes. Bluebirds are beautiful little birds and fun to watch. As far as I know they have no special attributes other than just being pretty birds. Tree swallows are similar to your purple martins. They swoop around and pick bugs our of the air while flying. They are a lot of fun to watch also. Last year the coons got into one of my bluebird boxes and killed the babies. I had predator protectors on the front even but they got them somehow. When I discovered what had happened I drove right out to Home Depot and bought 4″ PVC tubing and put that over the steel fence posts which I had mounted the nesting boxes on. But the damage was already done. Next spring that will no longer be an issue. The house sparrows start nesting early in the spring so if they can get into the bluebird boxes first then we won’t have any bluebirds. The same with the tree swallows.
So I have to keep a watch out and when the sparrows start trying to nest in the boxes, out comes the airgun. They learn quickly that the boxes are not a good place to roost. I may not be able to hit them with my RWS 34 but I can sure scare the heck out of them.
Geo
Halfstep
Did you mean Maximus when you made this comment? You said Marauder.
Marauders have excellent triggers.
“Halfstep
January 14, 2018 at 10:37 am
Chris USA,
If you watch the review of the custom regulated Marauder on AEAC you will hear Steve chastise Crosman pretty hard ( well, hard for Steve. He’s such a nice guy ) because they have such a crappy trigger on it. I think it is either a liability issue or perhaps they can avoid a warranty replacement later on if everyone immediately tears into their gun to fiddle with the trigger as soon as they receive it. Sneaky buggers !”
I should rephrase that.
That was a Marauder that he was talking about?
GF1,
I stand by my comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MsQUzPQr1w&t=461s
Here’s the video.
GF1,
I stand by my comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MsQUzPQr1w&t=461s
Here’s the video.
Halfstep
The Marauder has probably the best sport trigger around. That is if you know how to adjust it.
Hope your not comparing it to a competition trigger. Or have you shot a air gun with a competition trigger yet..
Anyway I would like a few links of some guns you shot with a better trigger than a Marauder rifle.
And you know you can’t trust everything you read on the net. 😉
GF1,
I’m not judging the trigger at all. I was just informing Chris USA that there was a video on AEAC that criticized it on the custom shop gun. I would like to hear how you like your custom shop Marauder compared to your regular Marauder.
And for the record, WE are actually on the net.
Halfstep
Well my answer would be as good as yours.
We both haven’t had a custom shop gun.
That’s my point.
And you know how you are and you know how I am. We can discuss this till next year and neither one of us will be happy with the answer.
Here we go again. 🙂
Halfstep,
I like my stock M-rod trigger and like my (simpley modded) Maximus trigger. I doubt they changed the trigger on the Custom Shop M-rod. It is too well known to be good. If they changed it at all, then bad on them for trying to cut corners to gain else ware.
I rewatched the AEAC video and Steve is specifically complaining about the hard first stage. He says they could easily do better because others- and here I’m not sure if he is referring to other companies or owners who mod their triggers- manage to do it and shame on them is the way he put it. He may be referring to some change that they do in the custom gun. I don’t know. I just offered the reference because I thought it was relevant to the discussion about triggers that was going on at the time.
Halfstep,
(Any and all) info. is always appreciated. At least we are all lucky enough to be able to trust what we read here. And for that,.. I am grateful. The trigger could have been poorly adjusted and/or poorly lubricated.
Chris, and all,
I know it is getting late but let me jump in here. I spent a long time adjusting the trigger on my Marauder and never got it the way I wanted until I took off the cover and looked inside.
Once I saw how I had the trigger adjusted it was never going to work the way it was supposed to. It takes very very small adjustments. If you have turned any of the screws more than one turn you have gone too far. I set mine up with the cover off so I could see what was going on. I then put it together and made about a 1/8 turn on one screw and it has been fantastic ever since. I could have turned the screws forever and never got it correct without seeing what was going on as I set the screws.
Just my two cents.
Don
Geo 791,
After I got done with that test session the wind died down so I wired up a 2/3 sized 8 oz. pop can and a Vienna sausage tin at 75 yards. I fired 20 rounds( 2 mags ) at each can, after refilling for each string, from a sand bag at that distance and never missed. I know you were interested in how handpump friendly this gun is so I want you to know that during all of the 31 yard shooting and this long range ( for me ) shooting at cans the gun was never filled beyond 170 bar (2400 psi)
Halfstep,
75?,…..VERY impressive! 😉 Fine shooting there now!
Chris USA,
Well it was from a sand bag! But I’m just excited to have a gun capable of that level of accuracy. If you read the reviews on Amazon, Walmart, Pyramyd AIR, Airgun Depot, you’d get the impression that every brand of PCP at any price level was capable of it. I don’t know if I have just had bad luck, but this one is a first for me, and I’m way happy, especially at the price. ( and I have another one that is still in the box, tee hee hee)
Halfstep,
Ya’ did good there air gun bro’. 🙂 I would say that you got a good one. We all know that no matter what “they” say,.. they ain’t all good ones.
Halfstep
Nice to see the Urban shooting well. With that BSA barrel I suspect they all do.
When do we see a report on the one in the box? 🙂
Idaho,
I don’t really know, to be honest. I may do some 12 yard indoor shooting soon, just to make sure it functions, before the return period expires. I always do that just to find the pellets that might show promise at longer distances. I just got 4 more pellets delivered today that I have never tried before. Will need to run them through Urban #1 and the stormrider. It also looks like I’m going to be doing some machining on the stormrider before it’s over with. It will need to calm down and/or warm up some ( neither of which are currently in the forecast ) before I do anymore long distance outdoor stuff.
Speaking of which, I will be interested in hearing more about your results with those JSB Straton Monsters if you shoot more of them. Do you have a tank of some kind coming to you? I know that you could only shoot your gun ’til the shipping charge was gone and you mentioned a tank, but I wasn’t clear if that was eminent or not. Also, I don’t think you told me if all that weather I saw in your pics was in Idaho or not. If you are in Idaho, how come you have such easy access to an air fill up. Diving or Paintball? Better get ya a handpump, too. All that white stuff looks like it would be pretty tough to drive through just to get air. ( Did I really use ” just ” and “air ” in the same sentence? There goes my DARKSIDE card )
Halfstep
I’m in northern Idaho. We have over 50 lakes within 20 miles and a SCUBA is popular. In fact nearby lake Pend O’Reille is about 600′ deep and there is a Navy base where they do submarine research. They did Navy training there in WW2.
I can get fills for $5. If I ever get a tank! I have a 95 cf carbon fiber tank ordered that’s been delayed. My thinking is either an inexpensive compressor or a second tank and just have them filled at the dive shop, no hand pump. One good thing with filling at the dive shop is good clean dry air.
For now its the down side of the DARKSIDE. 🙂
Idaho,
Dive shop air will be primo. Plus,.. you have a (primo) air rifle. You did right. Same shoes?,.. I would do the very same thing. That is my “un-asked-for” 2 cents. 😉
Chris
Thanks, I appreciate the input. I’m not getting the shoe reference.
Idaho,
If I were in your shoes,.. I would do the same thing.
That is a compliment by the way ,.. if you still don’t get it.
Another way,… if I could get 5$ dive shop air in a big tank and had a high end PCP, I would never consider a pump of any sort.
Idaho,
I guess I have that simplified, elementary school image that you end up with of each state. I see Idaho as vast, perfectly flat expanses of plowed dirt with potatoes under it just waiting to be dug up. LOL On that note, you seriously could settle a difference of opinion that I have with my wife. I won’t tell you my position so you won’t have to field questions about bias if this ever goes to court, but is an Idaho Potato just a Russet Potato that was grown in the state of Idaho? I’m serious, we need to lay this to rest, once and for all.
Halfstep,
I typed in Idaho Potato in Wikipedia and was led to quite the page of info.. A quick 10 minute scan found no references to Idaho potato’s specifically. They are grown all over the world.
I think that an Idaho russet is the same as any other russet. If I had to guess, they have done, and still do, a very good job of advertising a product of their state, though not exclusive to their state.
Chris,
I felt like what I found on the web was inconclusive, that’s why I wanted to hear it straight from an Idahoan’s mouth. Resident expert, so to speak.
Halfstep
The funny thing is I’ve never seen a big potato farm! I believe they are grown in the valley flats in the southern part of the state. I’ve lived here 20 years but my work has kept me so busy I’ve only been to Boise, the state capital once.
Idaho is the steepest country I’ve ever lived in. It’s all mountains. Its wild and free, very few people due to the rough country. The history of the north is all about silver mining.
Here’s a story of how wild Coeur D’Alene was such a wild dangerous place Wyatt Earp came as sheriff to try to tame it. Turns out he was really more about getting rich running dishonest gambling establishments and got run out of town.
http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/idaho/most-dangerous-places-id/
I attached a relief map that shows it quite well. We are located in the middle of the cluster of lakes you see in the north. Lake scenery is spectacular due to the surrounding mountains. Mountain sheep and goats are a common sight. Don’t spread this around. We have too many city folk moving in.
You made me curious about potatoes so I did a little google search.
Idaho is the biggest producer of spuds in the country:
https://www.potatopro.com/news/2011/potato-production-united-states
And here’s a rather dated promo video that talks about the types grown. Perhaps the answer to your potato dispute is there somewhere 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJEwlQI2_dY
Idaho,
Thanks for the response. I will check out the links you provided.
Idaho
My $300 China compressor is still chugging along. And still as fast as it was when I got it.
I just timed my Maximus fill yesterday again. About 1-1/2 minutes from 650-3000 psi.
Definitely $300 well spent so far.
GF
Good to know. Do you have any filter or water trap other than what it comes with?
Chris
I do wonder about gunk and moisture from small compressors causing trouble down the road. If those carbon fiber tanks were not so spendy it would be an easy choice to just have 2 and fill at the dive shop. I think I still may go that route. I’ve called a couple dive shops and they are open all winter. Bit of a surprise.
Idaho
Nope. And clean and dry as a whistle still.
Idaho,
You are the exception for the most part in that you have a dive shop so close and cheap. Sure, get all the tanks that you want,.. but I would stick with the primo air.
On filters, there is one called the Diablo. People that thought that were getting nothing through, got a bunch of water trapped. I do have a LP 5 micron filter on my set up and 0% issues. That is even on tear down/mods.. I would not mind having a HP filter, but I will be sticking with what I have for now.
Halfstep
Ain’t noth’n to it the way you do it. 🙂
Now for a hundred yards. 😉
GF1,
Offhand? 🙂 Hey,… in my book,… 75 is good.
Chris,
If you reread my first comment , I admitted the sandbag right up front. Sorry if you were mislead. I’m praising the gun, not my ability. But now I have something that will reveal whether or not I CAN shoot. That may end up being more af a “private” moment. 😉
Halfstep,
Of course I assumed sand bag. Still, that is some fine shooting at them there little can thingy’s!
Just sayin’. I would be proud and you should be too.
GF1,
Hell, I got no idea how well I shoot. Never had an airgun that gave me a fair accounting ’til now. That was my point.
Halfstep
Well now that you say that. Show me a list of what you had/have. That’s always interesting to see.
And don’t even ask me what I have or had. I can’t remember what I just said. 😉
But seriously. You haven’t had any air guns that shoot as well or better than your Urban?
And I would like to know if the Gamo Urban is good from gun to gun. Or you just got lucky this time. It would be nice to know what others have encountered with the Urban also.
GF1,
The Urban gets reviewed well and some of them are folks that seem to go at it like I would. I have a second one that I will be wringing out eventually and will be able to give you my impression of at least 2 of ’em.
I have the same issue that Geo 791 has with springers, that being, I just can’t seem to shoot the finicky darn things accurately. I have a RWS 45, a RWS 52, a FWB 124, and I know they are good guns but I just can’t seem to shoot ’em. ( and they are well behaved and cared for, so they aren’t candidates for anyone’s Home For Wayward Guns, before anyone asks 😉 ) I have a pair of 2260s, a QB78, a pair of Daisy CMP 853s, which are very accurate but at short distances, a Daisy 777 pistol, same deal as the 853, 3 1022s, a pair of Wildfires, a Gamo Coyote that is pretty accurate, but in .177. I have half a dozen springers that I bought at deep deep clearance prices in .177 and .22 and in one case ,both calibers. I have a 2200 Magnum multipump, again not too shabby as long as the distance is not too long. Lots of CO2 replica pistols, both BB and pellet, and they are great fun for what they are and what I do with them.
Most of the guns that I’ve bought lately have been inexpensive guns that I had realistic expectations for and many of them have delivered beyond my expectations. The most expensive guns I have are the three German springers that I listed in the beginning and I feel that they don’t hit what I aim at because I suck at shooting them. That’s on me.
I want a .22 PCP that shoots accurately, the way they get reviewed. My .22 Marauder has been a disappointment, based on user reviews and gushing video reviews. The stormrider was supposed to be the next best thing since sliced bread and for just a handful of change, according to the reviewers. That turned out to be a load, IMHO as they kids say these days. So I guess I’m a little bitter because I was looking for the Holy Grail of PCPs, cheap AND accurate, and I have been lead to believe that that was obtainable by a lot of folks out there in Reviewer Land and I didn’t have that experience personally. I really didn’t want to spend $ 1500 bucks on an airgun, but thinking back on it, I may have SAVED money and spared myself some frustration if I had just jumped in with both feet like Idaho did when he decided to go PCP.
Anyway, that’s why I’m so excited that I got an accurate gun that is made as well as the Urban is and why I point out whenever I can that I think it will end up being the gun that you were expecting the stormrider to be, if you grab it at the price I got it at, or will still be a value at it’s regular price and it just ain’t gettin’ the press it deserves. GF, I would like to know what others think about the Urban too, but it’s never brought up here. Marauder, Wildfire, Maximus, Guantlet and Discovery dominate the cheap PCP category in our discussions.
Halfstep
Yep you didn’t talk to me first before you got your .22 Marauder. 😉
And more food for thought. The other reviewer’s and what they said about the China Diana. So then can we really use what other reviewer’s are saying about the Urban that you say is out there?
Really my point is. I haven’t heard by many at all about if one Urban to the next is good.
So at least you got another. So that’s a start. And then what will be interesting is if it will like the same pellet as the one you have now.
And yep that is funny that all the other guns you just said are talked about here and not the Gamo guns. I do wonder why that is.
Halfstep
I spent a lot of time thinking over the accuracy issue. I have far less gun savvy than most of the members here but I do know I won’t buy anything without a high end barrel.
To me the hammer forged BSA barrel on the Urban makes it a great value.
That’s why I wonder about a LW barrel fitting the new Fortitude.
One other thought on accuracy, I considered a Talon, but in my view a good tight stock is part of the equation and that design does not meet that ideal.
I believe the Urban does not get recognition here because the Gamo name is mud. And perhaps rightly so. That doesn’t make it a best buy. In fact, the whole receiver is BSA and likely more refined than any of its competitors. And… the stock looks great. It’s on my short list for a second PCP.
When you have the time, I’d really like to see you post up a nice review on both yours showcasing the value and see what conversation gets going.
Halfstep
it should say, “that’s doesn’t mean its not a best buy” (it is in my books)
Idaho,
I don’t really know how to do a guest review here. I’m doing good to put my thoughts out there, informally, and I type with one finger, which is a real pain and the reason that I prefer spoken communication. It is widely known in KY and the surrounding states that I can definitely TALK.
If you look back over the past couple of weeks in the comments you will see where I have posted info that I thought might be of interest to others here regarding my tests with this Urban and I will post stuff on my other one as I am able to fool around with it. I don’t know if that stuff is what you are interested in, but most of my comments have pictures and graphs and such that you should see if you scroll down the comments. I have already lost track of when I posted what, so I can’t send you right to it, sorry. Maybe you have already read those comments.
I just had an exchange with GunFun1 about how this just doesn’t seem to be a gun that is owned by the folks that read this blog. Or it’s owned by people that are too bashful to post comments about it. I was hoping to get a wider discussion going but have only found a passing interest in it from the regular contributors here that eat up anything related to airgunning. Bless you all, my brethren.
I’d have to guess that many of their springers are the reason the brand is viewed with distain. If that’s the case, everybody listen up, their PCPs are made by their BSA component and should never be compared to their Big Box Store springers. Whole different animal. One might even say as different as a Diana Model 56 Target Hunter is to a …stormrider, for instance.
Halfstep
I’ve seen your reports, although maybe not all, and find them interesting. I wasn’t suggesting a formal guest review, but just an informal one kinda like what I did with the Wolverine. I did it because a couple members were interested. Nothing fancy or detailed. I’m guessing you saw it. If not I’ll find the link for you.
The Urban I think could generate a lot more interest, especially if you just point out what makes it stand out (easy to do) and put up a couple targets at 25 and 50 showing what it can do. With two of them it would be extra good!
You do pretty good with one finger 🙂
Idaho,
I did read your big reveal of the Wolverine and look forward to further installments. These updates, from time to time make me think back to the Saturday Matinee serials that I saw at the ” Pitcher Show ” as we called it, every weekend as a kid. Never knew what might come next ,but I always wanted to be there to see it. There are several things from my youth that I really miss ( my YOUTH being right up there as number one ) and the cartoon and serial before the double feature is way up on that list. And they replaced them with commercials, of all things. Who’da thunk it ?
Halfstep
I know the Urban is basically a BSA.
And thinking about that. Not many people even talk about those.
Halfstep
Forgot.
What magnification and hold over did you use at 75 yards?
GF1,
I was using a Mantis 3-9 X 32 scope set on 9X. The scope was zeroed at 30 yards ( may actually have been shooting a smidge high) The drop at 75 yards was 3 1/2 dots which turns out to be about 11 1/2 ” at 75 yards at that power. ( I may not always have this info for you because it isn’t something I’ve have had to pay much attention to in the past, being that I haven’t shot an airgun at this distance before because of all the reasons I discussed elsewhere today) I started with the third dot on the top of the can and after about the 15th shot I was putting the fourth dot in the middle of the can, as I recall. It was very satisfying. 20 shots then a refill to 170 bar and another 20 rounds.
That’s very impressive shooting Halfstep 🙂
Hi Chris,
Just saw the Fortitude today. Read the specs, saw “regulator” and “repeater” and my first thought was “Chris is going to go ballistic on this”
Hey, the way Crossman reuses parts and bits are interchangeable you may be able to add a magazine to your Maximus. Here is hoping as I will be looking as well.
Hank
BB,
I don’t know if you read this stuff on the weekend or not, but I was never clear on whether you were actually sick when you took your “sick day” the other day. When I was still working, MOST of my sick days were in quotes ( they were officially called Personal Business Days, but they were generally used whenever the two days at the end of the week were just not enough “ME” time). I hope that was the case with you, but we are having a flu outbreak here in KY that apparently made the national news, so I thought I’d ask after you and send a get well wish if you are under the weather.
Halfstep
You must not reread (all) the comments on a blog from time to time that day.
I asked him that and he said he actually was sick.
And I know it is easy to miss things from time to time. But just say’n.
GF1,
I spend more time rereading the comments than my wife thinks is healthy, but, let’s all ‘fess up right now. We ain’t never going to be tied to this blog like you are. 😉 🙂 I’ve had you come back with an immediate response to one of my comments in the middle of the night. LOL Thanks for that heads up on his condition, though, and I’m glad I gave him a shoot out. Feel Better, BB !
Halfstep
Yep. 🙂
Halfstep,
Yes I read the comments.
Yes, I have been sick. I work for myself, so sick days are not an option — not if you want to read a blog every weekday.
“Me” time? I stopped having that a couple years ago.
B.B.
BB,
I hope it’s not serious and you feel better soon. Also, thanks for the dedication and tenacity, but self employment kind of sucks if it precludes all ” Me” time IMHO. Repost some of your old stuff. I’m starting to get a grasp on just how old the regulars are here and I’m guessing we won’t even notice if it doesn’t extend beyond few days. LOL 🙂 Get Well.
Halfstep,
That was quite the collection that you rattled off above. There was a fellow here that when he bought air guns, he bought 2. That may have been you. At any rate, I am curious as to what is the goal/purpose of buying 2 of something? If it is for any collector value, I would think that an unopened box with purchase paperwork would be worth the most.
For all: As a side note for all,.. I went over the Crosman site and I did not see the Fortitude listed yet. I thought that curious. Curious too was that PA has it in with the PCP’s and not the new products. Odd too is that no one seems to have had the “heads up” on the release. We all check out other sites from time to time and usually there is at least a hint of something coming up. From what I have seen,.. we see hints, then more info., then pre-release testing with more info. and then finally an official release. (then of course the infamous wait because they never seem to have made enough ahead to fill the initial orders)
I just find it interesting that the Fortitude was released in a manner that did not follow conventional release protocol. Perhaps B.B. could shed some light on the topic?
Chris USA,
When I buy two guns at a time it is primarily so my grandson will have one to shoot with me. Secondarily it’s so another family member can shoot with me. And lastly it is so my buddies can shoot with me. I would rather shoot with or against someone than to shoot alone. Buying in pairs is why I gravitate toward inexpensive guns.
Was the Fortitude even displayed at SHOT show last year? When I read about it here yesterday it was a total surprise. Maybe the usual suspects will have access to them now for review.
On that note, Steve at AEAC just reviewed the custom regulated Marauder, if anyone is curious about that gun.
Halfstep,
I remember that story now. Thanks for the refresher. Hopefully we will not be having this same conversation 6 months from now,.. but no guarantees on that. 😉
Aside from 2x the expense, the idea does make a lot of sense.
Halfstep
I asked above what hold over and magnification you used when you did your 50 yard shooting.
Did you miss the comment? Interested in the info if you have it.
GF1,
I saw a request for that information on my 75 yard shooting. I typed you a response and there was either a glitch of some kind or I forgot to click the” Post Comment” button before I closed my browser. It was late last night, just before I went to bed.
If the 75 yard stuff is what you meant here it is again.
I was using a Mantis 3-9X32 AO scope. It was zeroed at 30 yards and I had to hold over 3 1/2 dots. That worked out to be about 11 1/2″. Shooting at the cans I started with the 3 dot at the top rim of the can and by around shot 15 I was holding the 4 dot on the middle of the can, if I recall right.
When I did the 50 yard shooting I was trying to miss the aim point and I wasn’t worried about holdover and stuff like that.
When I did the 30 yard shooting, that’s when I zeroed the gun.
Halfstep
What magnification?
Halfstep
And forgot. What sight in distance.
Chris
Other sellers have the fortitude listed so folks can line up with a purchase before its available.
The gauntlet was sold that way but I didn’t see if it started that way or they were just out of stock when I was looking.
Perhaps this is the new normal for the hot PCP market.
Everyone get in line!
Create a buying frenzie before anyone finds out if its even any good 🙂
Idaho
Read below me and Chris’s comments.
Idaho,
Yea,… I don’t know,… I really don’t. You and me,.. and others think that they should test the heck out something (PRE-release) and then use that to promote sales. At 299, they upgraded the Maximus a bunch. Almost too much. It does make one wonder what corners (may?) have been cut to get it to that price point.
Chris
I have seen Crosman do that in the past. Pyramyd AIR will have them listed and Crosman does not show them anywhere yet.
Hey y’all,
7 twelves is dragging me down mentally and physically. Couple more weeks of it, at least it’s winter and nothing much else to do anyways. In response to Chris I just figured out how to high level destructive test my targets and hope to post photos of the results later this week.
Carl
Coduece,
Well there you are! 🙂 I was thinking of e-mailing you and hitting you up for a 2% cut in due to all of my “promo work”,…. 😉 (just kidding ya)
Great news on the destructive testing. Looking forwards as to just what you end up with. I should make those brackets next week. Have a go at that bearing and see where that fpe comes in at. I am very happy with my purchase, quality, shipping and overall service.
I worked 7 twelves many years ago when I was just a young pup. 58’s later in my late 40’s and early 50’s. Not so much now. I am not a young pup anymore. Be careful and take care.
Chris,
Almost 53 and being called a young pup,I knew I liked you!
Carl,
About a year and a half before I retired I worked a 12 and 6 16s one week just to see how big a check it would be. I almost couldn’t dress or feed myself by the end of it and I was probably dangerous to be around. So I know what ya mean.
A couple of comparisons on the Fortitude and the Maximus:
Maximus,.. 41.7″, 5.0#, 135 cc tube
Fortitude,.. 42.6″, 5.3#, 135 cc tube
That tells me that it is probably the same barrel, since it is not shorter.
The 135 vs 135 cc is interesting as the regulator should give less space for the HPA charge.
Chris
Soon as I get one I’ll let you know for sure. 🙂
I already put in for a email notification for when they come in.
And you know me on the single shot stuff. Makes me wonder what size magazine the breech will accept. The reason I say is the Marauder pistol uses a different single shot tray then a Marauder rifle. So might be it’s own magazine. Either way I hope they will make a single shot tray available for the Fortitude.
GF1,
Well, I would hope that it would be a M-rod mag.. Also,.. it is “Hot Buy” at the moment. I wonder if it will go up and by how much? 0% I would hope. Really?,… That would be a waste of a good repeater. You already have the single shot version in the Maximus.
Side note: I was woken up at 1 AM by a coyote about 20 yards, if that, from the bedroom window. On another nature related note,.. I cut up a 1/2 loaf of stale bread into about 1/2″ pieces, shoveled the porch right outside the window where sit and tossed the pieces out. It took a bit for the birds to find them,, but now the “buffet” seems to be open. 🙂 Glad to feed the little critter’s. I am waiting for the squirrels to find the bread. They will get a free pass though. Too cold to shoot outside. I see 4-5 daily running up and down trees everyday.
Chris
Yep I do with the Maximus. But it don’t have a shroud and it’s .22 caliber. I need a nice quiet .177 caliber gun for some squirrel getting and pesting. Seriously the extra noise is not good.
And yep them coyotes are hungry right now. As well as the other critters and birds. I saw a big red hawk circling around yesterday. He swooped down and got a big red squirrel setting up high out in the middle of the branch. It was wide open clear pick’n for the hawk. And the hawk acted like the extra weight of the squirrel was nothing for it to fly with.
And forgot.
Haven’t seen any deer for the last 2 weeks. Usually see a big buck and a smaller one with about 3 or so doe. I was wondering what happened to them. Figured they were bedding down with the super cold weather that’s been going on.
But yesterday about 3:00 pm a heard of them ran across the feild around my 100 yard mark. Two big buck in the front followed by some mature doe. Then 3 more younger bucks and some younger doe. Then more young buck and doe. 16 in all by time they got through running across. And of course one smaller doe that was limping on it’s front leg. It was lagging way behind. So you know what that means for that one. The coyotes will get fed soon.
But was happy to see them. And haven’t seen them all run together like that for along time. Especially with deer season happening throughout.
Chris
And I just had a thought.
Remember awhile back when PA listed the new regulated Marauder rifle for sale. The delivery date kept getting pushed back. Then all of a sudden you didn’t hear anything about it. Then it pops up for sale on the Crosman site as a custom shop gun.
I wonder if this another one of those teasers like that.
GF1,
Sorry,… but that would be just plain wrong. P.A. better get a batch and keep getting them. I would expect that they will stay on back order. Get some, gone, get some, gone, repeat. The 499 was that way. As soon as they get some, they are gone (per PA staff, via phone). I was lucky and got mine after a cancellation.
That whole wait/delay/back order stuff is just plain wrong/messed up too.
Chris
Same thought here. But is exactly what happened with the regulated Marauder.
And yep I would pre-order Fortitude right now. But I don’t like the back order stuff either. That way your money is tied up in a sense. I know they don’t charge till they ship. But you have to make sure that money is always in the bank account for when all of a sudden it does ship.
So yes 100% I hope this ain’t one of those situations.
Chris
Oh and go to the Crosman website right now and see how much Crosman wants for the custom shop regulated Marauder rifle.
All I got to say is that better not happen with the Fortitude.
Chris,
I was just getting ready to check out the length of the two guns for comparison. I don’t know about the baffles in the Fortitude. It would seem the barrel would need to be shortened with a shroud and baffles in the Fortitude.
If Crosman is using the same technology to make the Fortitude barrels they should be similar for accuracy. I hope they are not using the Marauder barrel in .22 caliber that would be a mistake. I think the quality of this gun will all be dependent on the barrel. They hit a home run with the inexpensive Maximus barrel.
I will be waiting for accuracy reviews before jumping on the band wagon. I would be interested in one in .177 caliber. If they offered a L/W barrel as an option that would also go a long ways in putting it at the top of my list.
The competition is making it a good time for air gunners. Wish I could look ahead about three years and see which ones come out on top. Well maybe not what’s the fun in that.
Don
Benji-Don
You just gave me a heart attack.
Crosman better well not use the .22 caliber Marauder barrel. Now a .177 Marauder barrel ok. And on that note. I really really wish they would offer a Fortitude in .25 caliber. I really was hoping for a .25 Maximus even but Crosman never did it.
GF1,
Based on the length they do not have room for a full length Maximus barrel. It looks like the length of a Marauder shroud? You know how they like to mix and match parts on the new versions. I will order one but not untill I know what the barrel is. If it is the Marauder barrel, look at the breech? I will not be as interested. If they come up with a barrel as good as the Maximus I will be interested.
Just think if the come up with a barrel in the 20 to 26 inch length on a gun that uses the 13xx breech configuration like the Maximus great. But just think if they have an option for a 20 to 26 inch L/W barrel that fits that breech for less than $150. Look at the after market impact. When you are ready for a new gun gist buy a L/W barrel. If the barrel was less than $99 they could not keep them in stock.
If the Fortitude barrel is as good as the Maximus barrel then the L/W barrel would not be necessary. I still would like to see the option though.
Don
Don,
The breech is of interest. Does anyone recognize that breech from any other existing model? Maybe they are setting up a new line of exclusive parts?
Chris
Crosman changes their breeches around.
This is something that I showed Dave when he was making the AR butt stock adapters for various Crosman/Benjamin guns.
What Crosman is known for is changing up the breech and bolt pattern.
They do make modular guns in these line of guns. But they are smart enough to make changes in a up comming gun so you can’t adapt them in one way or another. And that is more true in the last few years.
All in all though Crosman/Benjamin guns in certian models can be switched around. You just got to research to see if what you want to do can be done.
GF1,
Yea, I got to learning that with my 2240 conversion research. I thought that if anybody was going to recognize that breech from (anything that exist now),.. it would be you.
Chris
The only breech that uses the same size air resivoir tube that accepts a rotary magazine is the Marauder pistol. And the 4 bolts that hold the breech in place are in the wrong place to work on the Fortitude.
Saying that. I believe the Fortitude is it’s distinct own breech.
Now as far as barrel swapping goes. Maybe there is one that will fit from the other guns that use that similar style breech. But then again no way to know till you get a barrel in hand to see. The outside diameter of the barrel could be different. They might of changed transfer port locations. And the barrel might be turned down to a certain diameter and legnth to slip in the breech.
Wish I could say. But no way to know for sure with a new model until you have it in hand.
You know how those car manufacturers are. Something that looks the same on the outside don’t always mean that it will bolt up on the other side.
Benji-Don
Don’t tell me your basing the Marauder’s off the .22 barrels too.
I have had very accurate .177 and .25 caliber Marauder’s.
Seriously I hope you and Halfstep aren’t thinking that way. The .22 Marauder barrels were hit and miss. Believe me I know. I had a couple gen1 and gen 2 Marauders. And there was no change from gen1 or gen2 .22 caliber Marauder’s. They had problems with the .22 barrels.
I have had gen 1 and 2 Marauders in .177 and .25 caliber and every one was accurate. And I had multiple guns of each.
Don’t know if that’s what you and Halfstep are thinking. If so I have to ask if you tryed any .177 and .25 Marauder rifles.?
GF1,
You make a good point. I did let my experience with the .22 barrel cloud my thinking. The .25 barrels were not made by Crosman. Don’t know if that is still the case but they are excelent based on all the folks I know about. And pretty much the same with the .177 Crosman barrels. I have not owned a .177 or .25 Marauder.
If the Fortitude uses the Marauder barrels that would push me to .177 unless they have changed the process for making the .22 Marauder barrels.
If I was getting my Marauder today it would be in .25 caliber. I am now a happy camper with my hammer forged .22 caliber barrel.
I should be getting both a .177 and a .22 caliber Maximus barrel any day now. I have decided to have both of them machined to fit my Crosman 101. So testing should start in a couple more weeks.
Don
Benji-Don
Sorry to sound so harsh. But I have heard that over and over about the Marauders.
It is a shame I will say though about their .22 barrels. And I don’t actually understand how Crosman let that happen. I’m sure there had to be a reason. Even so they should of corrected it.
And yep who knows on the Marauder barrel process. But I do hope Crosman hears again. And from what I seen. There is more chance of getting accurate guns than not. Well everything except their spring and nitro guns. I myself think they are hurting their reputation with those guns.
I’ll tell ya. If it was me and I was a in a position to control Crosman. I would sure be eliminating some products. I know they are trying to reach multiple types of shooters. And that’s great. But some of the products definitely need to be rethought. It might be hurting them more than they think.
And as far as the Maximus barrels go on your 101. If it works out. There will be more 101 Maximus barreled guns in the future from your work you will do when you get the Maximus barrels.
I do hope Crosman is reading again.
GF1,
I just cannot let this go without backing up your comment about Crosman listening.
At this time the 2260 barrel from Crosman is about $15 less than the Maximus barrel in 22 caliber so the 2260 barrel is half the price of the Maximus barrel. I forget the price of the Marauder barrel but I am pretty sure it is more than the Maximus barrel in .22. As good as the Maximus barrel has turned out to be for an additional $15 dollars not to use that technology in the Fortitude would be a big mistake and would really give me a bad taste from Crosman and push me away from my allegiance to them.
Here is what I have heard: the Maximus barrel is honed before adding the rifling. If that is making all the difference then how can it not be done in all the barrels for their medium to high end guns (Maximus on up).
I am still not convinced what the problem was with the Marauder barrel in .22 was but I am sure that harmonics and dynamics was a big problem for that barrel. I know you think it had to do with the size of the bore. I have pushed pellets through my .22 Marauder barrel and it felt about right compared to other barrels. So I can’t say for sure but my feeling is more towards harmonics and dynamics. Only Crosman knows if the Marauder barrel has the very good accuracy from its length or from the additional process in manufacturing the barrel. Knowing Crosman why would they add 2 inches to the 2260 and Discovery barrel for the Maximus? That is not the way they normally go. I think the 2 inches made the difference in changing the harmonics and dynamics of the barrel. Both of my Maximus barrels do a little better with a little weight on the end. On the 2240 it is fully floated from the long metal breech. On the Maximus the weight is probably not needed because it has the barrel band near the muzzle.
Obviously this is all conjecture on my part. But I will be waiting for the accuracy tests before I buy the Fortitude especially in .22 caliber. If they do the barrel right that will make a very good gun for the money. If they do the trigger right they will have a great gun for the money and I will be jumping on the band wagon and it may be the first gun I buy in both calibers and all three if they add .25.
And another thing why did they quit making the single shot trays the aftermarket ones are loose in my gun.
I will get of the soap box now.
Don
Benji-Don
And I can buy your thought about harmonics verses bore size.
What I have actually thought in the past is that the barrel length and the outside diameter of the barrel might be the cause.
Well and the inside diameter of the barrel too. But not fit of the pellet but how thick the barrel is. A example. Some guns have standard barrels and some have the bull barrels.
All in all. Something went wrong with the .22 Marauder barrels most of the time. But some were good. So that always gets me too.
But whatever the reason that the Maximus barrels seem to be the best. Well that’s what Crosman should be doing then I believe.
Don,
Good points all he way around. If they are using the Maximus barrel, (then they should say so),.. as I think that it has been very well received.
A L/W M-rod barrel on the Crosman site goes for 100+,… so I doubt they are using that on the Fortitude. The L/W 2400 barrels are like 50$, but shorter. Heck, maybe the Maximus barrel is more accurate,… now wouldn’t that be a kicker!
Bottom line,… we need us some more (facts) up in here,.. ehh? 😉
See my cmt to GF1 above. Yep and yep.
Chris,
Just realized you were talking about the Crosman site with L/W barrels. I wonder what took them so long. I can see ordering one or both of those barrels in the near future. Having a .177 L/W barrel for my Marauder with the corresponding breech and bolt will be like having two guns. The more I think about it the more it is moving to the top of my list. I will see if they sell the barrels separately? and what the price is.
Don
Benji-Don
From what I have seen from Crosman custom shop guns. They usually don’t have part numbers for custom shop gun parts. And Crosman won’t sell parts without a number.
Not saying it couldn’t happen for some reason. But I don’t think so.
Yep, that has been the case in the past. But especially with the .22 barrels they had better make these available. My guess is they will with some outcry from us.
I have been comparing what I can discover and believe the Fortitude has a 20 inch barrel just like the Marauder. Don’t know about the fitment in the breech for the transfer port.
Don
Chris
I just checked the Fortitude today.
Guess what. They moved the availability date back to the end of March. It was the end of this month.
Looks like Deja vu with what happened with the regulated Marauder release.
GF1,
Yea,.. I don’t know dude. They sure did not do anything to promote it’s release. Then… the usual push back and wait. Not good.
Perhaps BB could share some of this “mysterious” marketing strategy with us in a blog someday? For the average “Joe”,… it does not make any sense and really just plain ticks us off. Note to Crosman,… ticking off your customers is NOT a desirable sales strategy.
Perhaps they can see their way clear to get BB on the top priority list and get one in his hands so that we can (at least) read about it?
Chris
I got idea why but I won’t post why. I’ll email you.
Chris,
It’s called search engine optimization or SEO.
All top dealers do it. The first listing of an item gets top placement on the search engines, so when the items do come out, they will be seen first.
Now you know what it’s like to see something at the SHOT Show that you may not see for half a year!
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you for that insight. I had not even thought of that, though I am surprised no one else did. So much for the old school marketing approaches any more,… ehh?
Chris