Diana model 30 gallery gun: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Diana model 30 gallery gun
Diana model 30 gallery gun.

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • Description
  • Caliber 4.4mm
  • The fix
  • Power was intermittent
  • Rifled
  • Discussion
  • Summary

Apparently there have been three Dianas model 30. Blue Book of Airguns calls them out and tells us the differences. Last week there was some confusion about which Diana model 30 airgun I was referring to in a comment, and when I clarified it one of our readers asked for a report. It happened that I then visited a friend who has a model 30 gallery gun, and he told me it wasn’t working. I said I would try to get it working again if I could test it for the blog, so here we go.

Description

The Diana model 30 gallery gun is a spring-piston rifle that uses a bolt to cock the mainspring. It’s similar in function to a great many other bolt-action airguns like the Schmeisser model 33, the Anschütz model 275, the Haenel model 310 that copies the Anschütz, and even the Czech models VZ35 and VZ48. All of those airguns are rifles like this one, but if we expand the list to include smoothbores we have to acknowledge the Mars models 85, 100 and 115. There are probably others I haven’t mentioned.

The gun we are looking at today was made from 1972 to 2000. According to the Blue Book there was a limited availability of them until 2003, which might be the remaining supplies being sold off. This model is virtually unheard of in the U.S., but common in parts of Europe and, oddly, in the UK, where they are seen in amusement park shooting galleries. This is a purpose-built gallery airgun that even has two shot counters — one to count the shots so the customer can be charged and the other to count the total shots on the gun for periodic maintenance purposes. That one is like an hour meter on a piece of equipment.

Diana model 30 shot counters
Shot counters for selling shots and for maintenance.

Caliber 4.4mm

Remarkably all these guns (that I know of) shoot 4.4 mm lead balls. I guess that is not unlike our American BB guns that all use 0.173-inch steel BBs. And I have a lot more to say about that.

The gun I was loaned had some balls in the magazine tube underneath the barrel that could be seen through slots in the tube’s side when the muzzle was held down. When I tried cocking and shooting the gun though, nothing came out — just like the owner told me.

Diana model 30 magazine windows
Three “windows” let you see what balls are in the magazine.

The fix

I figured the fix for any low-powered spring gun could be ATF sealant on the piston seal. This stuff fixes both CO2 and pneumatic seals, and I reckoned it would also fix spring-piston seals on lower-powered guns, regardless of whether they are leather or synthetic. I found no place to oil the piston, so I dropped about 10 drops down the muzzle and stood the rifle on its butt for several hours.

When I then cocked and shot the gun hours later it started firing intermittently. The number of good shots kept increasing until it was finally shooting a ball every time.

Diana model 30 bolt down
The bolt is down when it is at rest.

Diana model 30 bolt up
Lift the bolt up with no resistance. Now it can be rocked back to cock the rifle.

Diana model 30 bolt cocked
The bolt is rocked back, compressing the mainspring. Return it to the down position and the rifle is ready to fire.

Power was intermittent

I noticed that some balls were shooting much harder than others. At first I thought the piston seal was just getting soaked with oil, but this persisted and I looked for the reason why. I discovered it quite by accident.

Rifled

Most of these gallery guns are rifled and shoot balls. And they are all repeaters. They all have different magazines, and the model 30 has a gravity-feed tube that holds up to 125 balls.

I wanted to look at the rifling, so I shot a ball into a cloth to catch it for photography. That ball told me more than I bargained for.

Diana model 30 ball rifling 1
The arrows point to either side of the band of rifling engraving around the ball. This rifling is not engraving deeply enough!

At first when I looked at the shallow rifling cuts under a jeweler’s loupe I thought, “Wow — Diana sure made some fine rifling in this barrel!” Then it dawned on me — the rifling was fine because the balls were too small for the bore! These balls were undersized. That could also cause the power to be low. So I measured the balls and, sure enough, I was loading balls of different sizes! And probably so had the owner of the gun without knowing it.

I have two different brands of German lead balls whose tins both say they are sized 4.4mm. I have been shooting one brand for the past 20+ years. But when I measured these “4.4mm” balls, they actually measure anywhere from 4.34mm to 4.41mm Most measure 4.39mm which is close, but we aren’t playing horseshoes or throwing hand grenades.

Diana model 30 ball caliper
Sure enough, these “4.4mm” lead balls are on the small side.

The 4.4mm balls in the other tin I have all measure 4.4mm+. They also seem to shoot harder in this Diana 30, and the rifling has engraved them much deeper.

Diana model 30 balls
The copper-plated balls on top tend to be smaller than 4.4mm. The balls in the bottom tin are larger.

Diana model 30 ball rifling 2
The unplated lead ball is larger and grabs the rifling much better. Sorry the image is not sharp. This was a macro hand-held.

Discussion

This report sounds like a repair job, when it actually was more about learning an airgun I did not know and had no documentation for. In the beginning I didn’t even know how to load it. The owner wasn’t sure either, but a drawing showed both of us that the balls go in the end of the tubular magazine. A small wire spring keeps them from falling back out.

Diana model 30 loading ball 1
I prepare to load a ball. I didn’t know these copper-plated balls were too small when I took this picture.

Diana model 30 loading ball 2
The ball is dropped into the top of the magazine, where the spring stops it.

Diana model 30 loading ball 3
A small tool pushes the ball past the spring into the magazine. Gallery owners no doubt had speedloaders for this.

Summary

How about that? I didn’t even get through Part 1 this time. I thought this report would be cursory, but apparently not. On Monday I will finish describing the Model 30.

173 thoughts on “Diana model 30 gallery gun: Part 1



    • RR,

      I follow the British You-Tuber, Giles. His IWA report had a small bit about that gallery gun. I watched it three times — um…might’ve had something to do with the model ….of gun, of course. . I am interested in that rifle though. It might be as much fun as the drywall screw blowguns! Ha ha!

      Jim M.



  1. B.B.,
    This is a cool gun with a neat mechanism; I’ll be interested to see the accuracy.
    I like to see reports on these gallery guns; it brings back memories of simpler times.
    Some of my first shooting was with a Winchester model 62 gallery gun in .22 short at a county fair.
    Knocking over those moving mechanical ducks and rabbits was fun!
    And who doesn’t remember the old Thompson full-auto BB guns every carnival seemed to have?
    You tried to shoot out the red star to win a prize, but the carnie always showed you a tiny piece you missed, haha!
    In these days where young people are too attached to their electronic devices,
    I would LOVE to see a revival of shooting galleries, with guns like this Diana model 30,
    where kids could hold a piece of wood and steel in their hands and shoot actual targets
    …not some fake ones on a screen using a fake electronic gun simulator…oy!
    Yes, these “blast from the past” reviews are most enjoyable!
    take care & God bless,
    dave


  2. B.B.,

    You have probably covered this before, but I am curious about “best” accuracy from a BB gun — or rifle — either modern or older. I know about the Daisy 499, and the 10m accuracy it is capable of. What is the “most” accurate BB gun/rifle you are aware of — both older and modern? Is 10m the practical maximum for a BB? What velocity would you say is likely the maximum a BB could be shot at without losing accuracy?

    For perspective, as I ask these questions, I know a rifle shooting lead balls can have both velocity and accuracy out to 100-plus yards, but I suspect the much lighter BBs — whether copper, steel, or lead — would only be accurate out to some considerably shorter distance. Also, does round shot (BBs) suffer any disruption like pellets do when they go from super- to trans-sonic?

    Lots of questions, I know. Thanks in advance.

    Jim M.


    • Jim,

      A BB gun’s distance is not 10 meters. It’s five. I think they starting falling apart at 10 meters.

      Supersonic BBs? Don’t know because I have never experienced them. The 499 is the world’s most accurate BB gun, hands down. It shoots at 240 f.p.s., so there’s your best velocity. Some readers have tweaked their 499s up to around 400 f.p.s. and they claim even better accuracy but I will let them explain that.

      B.B.


      • Thanks B.B. Ahh…my brain and typing fingers had a disconnect. I was thinking 5M, not sure why I typed 10M.

        I know Chris USA replaced his 499 spring with a Red Ryder spring, and has reported good results.

        Jim M.


        • Jim M,

          For sure. It is every bit as accurate and increased the accurate range. Man,… I do not shoot that thing enough! When I do,… I can not seem to lay it down. It for sure comes in handy in the Ohio Winters when I want a nice, accurate, indoor shooter. This time of year,… I am shooting outdoors as much as possible.

          Chriss


          • Chris,

            Did you find a write-up somewhere, some directions on how to make that swap, or did you just dive in and figure it out as you went? Any additional parts needed, or is it a pretty straight-forward swap?

            Jim


            • Jim,

              It is pretty straight forward. The safety spring will be the biggest pain. 2 BBQ wood skewers got the old main spring out but putting the new R.R. in requires a bit more platform for compression. A 13/16″ OD washer if I recall. ID ?. I did mine without it, but it was a challenge. I do have some links,.. I think,… and notes,… if you would be interested.

              I used a TX200 piston seal too which is pliable, unlike the hard plastic seal that it comes with. If I do recall, the difference was slight, but I like pliability in a piston seal. I had it handy, it would work, so I used it.

              Chris


            • Jim,

              Also,… just get one first. You may like it just the way it is (you will like it!). Then,… if you want to extend the accurate range a bit, you can do the spring mod.. Or maybe I forgot and you already have one?

              Mine will keep 10 bb’s in 9/16″ at 24′ all day and could do it before and after the mod.. At 41′, it raised the POI 3″ and kept the accuracy which was if I recall,.. right around 1″. FPS was 247 and went to 412. Trigger pull stayed around 2.5# and the cocking effort went from 5# to 10#.

              At any rate, if you want to know more on the mod.,… let me know and I will see what I can dig up for you.

              Chris


              • Chris,

                Thanks for the info. I am likely to get a 499, sooner rather than later. I’m not anywhere near as much of a tinkerer as you and some others here on the blog. I have removed a couple of stocks to apply Tune-in-a-Tube, but haven’t even attempted that on some side levers I have, which would require a mainspring compressor…..

                I do still have your email, and will reach out if I get to feeling adventurous enough to tackle that project. Making time would really be the bigger issue. It seems I barely get enough time to shoot much these days.

                Thanks!

                Jim


      • BB
        You forgot something in your statement about the 499’s accuracy.

        “The 499 is the world’s most accurate BB gun, hands down. It shoots at 240 f.p.s., so there’s your best velocity. (For the 499)? Maybe.

        Like you said about Chris and others that have upped the power.

        Maybe a desiged for high velocity accurate bb gun could be had. Maybe not. But it is a interesting thought.


        • GF1,

          Well,.. I kept the accuracy and upped it by 150 fps.,…. so yes,… it can be had. All of the credit goes to Cobalt though. I just followed in his foot steps.

          Chris


          • Chris
            Not what I’m talking about.

            Let’s try a velocity around 900 fps or higher.

            Maybe that’s the thing. Maybe 1200 fps is needed for a bb to be accurate at say 35 yards or so.

            That’s the thing. Is there a bb gun available that has a a nice barrel like the 489 that can make power like a PCP gun does.

            From what I seen I don’t think that combination has been tryed yet. But I may be wrong. But that’s where I was going.


            • I like where you are taking this Gunfun1,

              A PCP power plant behind a 499 barrel, that could work very well as you could adjust the power to get the best possible accuracy at a given distance.

              I think the key is the tight barrel of the 499, I think that is what makes it so accurate.

              Mike


              • Mike
                Yep that’s what I was thinking also.

                I know alot of things have been tryed in the past. But what keeps going through my mind is they may have given up right at the point where a break through was about to be made. You know in relation to medical research like with cancer or such. I believe there is more to be found in certian instaces that they just haven’t run accross yet.

                And that brings me to my Condor SS regulated bottle testing. I wanted to get the right working pressure figured out before I ordered the 22 cubic inch regulated bottle that I’m going to tether to the Condor SS.

                I have been shooting it pretty heavy over the last week or so. Basically concentrating on it and not shooting other guns. Well I found a working pressure that the gun is very accurate at and making decent power. In other words very consistent 10 shot groups now.

                I shot from high to low fills multiple times and found the guns sweet spot for it’s working pressure. It likes between 1400 to 1700 psi. So I ordered a 1600 psi regulated pressure 22 cubic inch bottle. They had a 1800 psi bottle available but my gun started falling apart on accuracy up at that psi. So I ordered the 1600 psi bottle. I hope I made the right choice.

                But yep if what I just mentioned could be applied to a accurate bb gun barrel like you said. We just might have a accurate bb gun out to longer distances.

                But that’s the problem. Is there anybody out there that wants to put the time in to develop a bb gun past what it is.


                • GF1,

                  You should do fine with 1600 PSI. When I tested my custom built Talon SS I got from BB’s friend Mac several years ago, the top of the power curve was at 1800 PSI. It really depends on how the valve is adjusted. Most people just waste a lot of air with these things.

                  As for a long range bb gun, you would end up with the same issues of muskets versus rifles.


                  • RR
                    Yep I think I’ll be good with the 1600 regulated psi. I’ll know soon enough. The bottle is suppose to be here today.

                    And about a higher powered pcp bb gun. I’m still thinking that 50 yards could be doable. That QB79 I had running on the regulated HPA bottle did pretty good out at 25 or so yards with bb’s.

                    Like Mike said. I believe the key to it working out would be a good barrel like the 499 has. Then add some consistent velocity and it might just work out to 50 yards.


                    • GF1,

                      Something I have thought about for sometime now was to take a cheap .22 break barrel sproinger and insert a 499 barrel with a small magnet near the breech.


                  • RR
                    And that to would be interesting.

                    You could always swedge the barrel a bit smaller to hold the bb in place. You would have to swedge it just right so it would hold the bb but not be too tight.


                    • GF1,

                      I have some real small magnets. I would drill a small hole in the side of the 499 barrel and glue one in to hold the bbs.



            • GF1,

              I see. Sure, why not? The first thought that comes to mind is the hardness of the bb and the barrel. Is a bb “hard”? Is the barrel “soft”. “Dead soft”. It could be that the Feltman’s had very hard barrel to withstand high volumes of steel shot. Or was it lead shot? Lead shot I think.

              But yes,… a high volume, high fps, (steel) bb shooter would be very interesting. Something that could re-use the bb’s.

              Cool on the Condor. It sounds like you have it figured out. Keep us posted.


              • Chris
                And I’m thinking more on the lines of a single shot pcp bb gun that uses a something like a 499 barrel. I think that just might work to get out to 35 yards. And maybe even 50 yards.

                And yep I hope I made the right choice on the working regulated pressure for the bottle. It’s suppose to be here around noon today. So I’ll know something later today.

                Any more shooting with your Daystate?


                • GF1,

                  No shooting today. Weather is off and on rain all day. Things are dripping wet now. Tomorrow should be good. I will use today for cooking, do some pellet sorting, get some targets ready and get a test plan together. With a new gun, I like to have a test plan to basically stick to so that I can focus on one or two aspects at one time.

                  High speed (steel) bb’s may be an issue since they won’t be able to seal tight in the grooves and lands of the rifling like a lead ball or pellet would. A poor seal would not be good for a PCP,.. or any air gun for that matter at least when it comes to getting maximum speed. A coat of oil may assist with a seal. A bb shooting 1000 fps (plus) would be interesting to see.

                  You could get a 499 barrel, make a breech to accept a .22 nail gun cartridge, glue a bb to head of the cartridge and remote fire with something like my nail gun cartridge reactive target. The barrel is already threaded at the breech end. That should generate enough power to test high speed bb theory/accuracy. Disclaimer: At this point you now have a firearm. Making the same thing happen with air would be a bit more challenging to get the same speed.


                  • Chris
                    Not even thinking about a rifled barrel. More on the lines of a precise 499 barrel. Then control it with a adjustable striker and spring and transfer port adjustment like the Marauder’s use.

                    And about velocity. I don’t see it hard at all for a bb to make 1000 fps with the pcp power plant. Remember BB’s are litter than most .177 caliber pellets. Plus contact surface for less resistance.

                    Heck one steel bb shot from the hpa QB79 shot at 800 fps. But that was a rifled barrel also.

                    All I know is I would like to see it tryed.

                    And it has rained here for the last 3 days. Today is the first day with supposedly no rain. It is calm out so far today. Hopefully it stays that way and I can get some good testing done with the Condor SS.



              • Jim
                I have shot the .177 Gamo and H&N round balls out of springers and a Discovery matter of fact some years back. Wasn’t bad but wasn’t as accurate as a pellet was out of the guns.

                And I’m still thinking strictly a steel bb. That’s what I want to see happen. A accurate bb shooting gun out at longer distances with food velocity.

                I still think a precise 499 barrel fit to a pcp would be the experiment to do.

                And talking rifling with a lead ball like your saying. I don’t think a round ball be it lead or steel needs to spin like a bullet or pellet to stabilize.

                I’m guessing that bb shot out of a 499 bb gun doesn’t even spin. The bb just gets pushed out of the barrel. No rotation at all.


                • GF1,

                  We are back to a musket versus a rifle. A ball does indeed need a spin to stabilize. It just does not need as much. Most muzzleloaders designed to shoot ball have a twist rate ranging from around 1:35 to as little as 1:65.

                  Militaries used muskets because they were faster to reload. Their accuracy was deplorable. That is why they used mass formations and closed on each other and blasted away. The snipers used rifles.



                  • RR
                    I’ll wait for BB’s blog to comment.

                    But I’m waiting to see what fun he’s talking about that is similar to 499 barreled pcp shooting steel bb’s.

                    Heck I could even bring up air soft guns right now. They are smooth bore. And they do have the hop up to induce spin. So spin does do something. But it’s more to give distance to the air soft ball. Not necessarily accuracy.

                    But we’ll see what BB’s report is about.


              • Jim and everyone,

                You do realize that these comments are leading to a blog next week?

                Everything you are talking about has been discussed and tried before. I have even written about some of it. Now I guess I have to write something new from the standpoint of accuracy from a smoothbore barrel and round ball accuracy potential.

                B.B.


  3. B.B.

    I’m looking to read more on the Model 30 – looks like it might be an excellent plinker! Do you think that something might have a place and be marketed in North America?

    Reading the blog on the Model 30 brought up memories (from the late 70’s?) of shooting a tethered rifle that shot round lead BBs. When the Feltman submachinegun was mentioned in the comments I googled it and that’s to one I remembered! Always thought it would be cool to have one for my own shooting arcade.

    Hank



      • B.B.,

        That would be the Holy Grail of airgun memorabilia. I might have to look up what a new one runs and see what the operating parameters are. To stand up to carnival/fair use they would have to be made very substantially,.. of which,… I am sure that you will be paying for.

        Chris



        • Chris USA,

          Reb would be the one who can say if it was legit or not considering he ran one of those concessions years ago if my rememberer remembers right.

          Siraniko


          • Siraniko,

            …. “it looks a bit “fishy” and legit at the same time”,….. (just like) the carnival games. 😉

            Yea,… Reb might know a bit, but I am not having any luck finding the “new” source for them. I would think that you could buy just the guns without going for the full set-up.

            Chris




        • Hank,

          If it was not for the fact that I have so many antique air rifles around here to plink with I would likely be giving this one serious consideration myself.


          • RR,

            I know what you mean. Being the kind of guy that believes in having the proper tool for the job I have ended up with more airguns than I ever thought I would.

            For decades my FWB 124 was all I needed or wanted. I stumbled across this blog while looking for information to service the 124 and couldn’t believe the groups I was seeing. Started reading regularly and became ensnared by the Great Enabler!

            I have traded in my firearms for air rifles for 10 meter, hunting, pesting, plinking, field target and formal target shooting. My “problem” is choosing which one to invite out to my range for some exercise 🙂

            Been carrying my 101 around when I’ve been doing chores – there is always some time to take a break for a dozen shots or so eh?

            Happy Monday RR!
            Hank



            • Hank,

              Soon I might be carrying my 101 around a bit. I have it all torn down now and have started the refinishing. I really need to get on with it so I can start on my next project.


  4. Hello BB and to everyone on here.
    I’m pretty new here on this forum, at least with posting, reading it for a while now.
    And I have to say, it is always exciting what I read here.
    Good Job to you BB and all the other forum members.
    I was just browsing around a few days ago on the Diana website in German, and they show there a new Rifle like this one, and deriving it to this Diana. But now it is called the “Oktoberfest Gewehr”.
    It don’t say anything about availability or prices or if it will be available here in the US.
    I shot a question about that to Diana via e- mail request.
    If interested here is the link:
    https://www.diana-airguns.de/produkte/produktnews/news/diana-oktoberfestgewehr/
    I hope you can read and understand that it is in German.
    BB and everyone keep up that good work.
    Juergen.



      • Thank you BB, thanks for the welcome.

        So far I have found only one online airgun store that carries them, and is a German based store.
        It is called GSG Sport here is the link:
        https://www.german-sport-guns.com/shop/de/Diana-Oktoberfestgewehr_1830000
        I don’t know how, or if the delivering to the US.
        But I will try to keep an eye on it.
        It was there for sale for 179.00 Euro,bthat would be roughly $210.00.
        I checked Krale Shietsports website, but couldn’t it find there.
        Maybe I will find some more, and I still have the e-mailed inquiry to Diana Germany out, so maybe there will come something up too.

        I hope you can get one for yourself BB.
        Im interested in that one myself, cause we had to move ourself 2 weeks ago.
        And where we moved from I could shoot out to 50 yards, and was in an rural aerea, now we had to move in an apartment complex in a 2 bedroom appartment.
        And here I can shoot only to 5 yards into an own made BB-trap and pellet-trap.
        And of course it have to be very quiet what I shoot.
        That means mostly only my Red Ryder, hand bb-guns or equivalent is in order to shoot right now, but that’s not a big deal I was only a plinker for tin cans or paper occasionally before.
        I have to find a gun range now if I will go further in distance and here around is not much in the backhand, I will figure out☺.

        Sincerely Juergen.


        • Juergen,

          Welcome to the blog, and thanks for the links you provided above. Wilkommen! Sind Sie Deutsch? Wohnen Sie in Deutschland?

          I was about to post this link when I saw yours. B.B. — if you need to remove this, I will understand. The HAM guys wrote about the new Gallery Gun here: https://hardairmagazine.com/news/diana-umarex-germany-day-iwa-2018/

          “The Oktoberfest Gewehr uses unusual 4.4 mm (yes 4.4 mm) round balls instead of the standard 4.5 mm (.177 caliber). This was so that unscrupulous competitors could not bring their own BBs from home, thus gaining an unfair advantage! The Oktoberfest Gewehr holds 100 round balls in a tubular magazine under the barrel. It’s cocked by pulling back on a lever behind the barrel, as you can see below.” (Pics in article – JM)

          Jim M.


          • Hallo Jim, ja ich bin Deutsch und spreche und schreibe Deutsch immer noch sehr gut.
            Nein ich lebe hier in den Vereinigten Staaten von America (USA) oder Amerika.
            Seit 2002 sind wir ich und meine Frau hier hergezogen.
            With leben hier in Lucedale Mississippi.
            But I also speak and write English too.
            Thanks for the welcome Jim.
            And your welcome I will try to dig up some more about this Oktoberfest Gewehr.
            And I for sure let you guys know what Diana will answer to my e-mailed inquiry.
            I basically asked in that e-mai if they sell this gun here in the US and for what price and from wich sources.
            Always have fun, happy plinking and straight shooting.


            • Juergen,

              Danke für ihre Antwort. Ich habe Deutsch im Gymnasium studiert, aber es war vor viele jähren, und ich habe zu viel vergessen. Ich wohne im Kansas, nahe Kansas City.

              Es ist mir eine Freude!

              Yes – I would be interested in hearing what you find out about whether that rifle will be available here in the states.

              Thanks!



        • Jnjhess, I’m with you, man!
          In Florida, I had a half acre of woods next door where I could shoot;
          And our neighborhood was only 1/3 populated and outside the city limits.
          Hence, airguns, crossbows, and even .22 LR were all OK.
          Here, we are on 1/4 acre, surrounded by neighbors.
          Still, I have a 15-yard airgun range for quiet airguns (like my HW30S).

          However, our rescue cats have taken over the shooting bench and trap table.

          So most of my shooting is on my indoor 5-meter range at the back of my clothes closet.

          *shrugs* At least I can shoot anytime, day or night, rain or shine. =D


          • Hi, Davemyster.
            That looks pretty good there, my setup is not that much sophisticated yet.
            So far it is made out of an big sturdy cardboard box, in Wich I layered 4 more layers of thick cardboard in the back, then I filled it with a big layer of crumpled up new papers and another top layer on top of that to hold it in place.
            And in front I tape a piece of poster board with the target in front of it.
            And the latest addition to it is after I took my Daisy 880 out to shoot it too, I figured that kind of backstop will not hold that pellet up.
            So I added a piece of plywood a half inch thick behind it on the backside on the outer side of the box.
            Saving up for that nice pellet trap with Stella backstop and ductwork putty that PA has for sale I think it is $69.95 or something around that.
            Yup it is bad if you live inside city limints and surrounded by neighbors.


          • Dave,

            That picture is worth a million!,.. and illustrates (very well) to what lengths we shall go to shoot our airguns. 41′ is my indoor limit in the Winter. But hey,… I do have to get me one of those fancy signs. Though,.. I might have to change up the wording just a wee bit. Single,.. and shoot across my living room, dining room and front hallway. And,.. I do like to “relax”,.. within limits.

            Very nice!,…. Chris 🙂 Thank you.




          • Thank you BB for that info.
            Will be looking out when it will appear on PA website.
            And yes I have thought myself to get a Daisy 499 BB.
            Really interesting gun, also like the Daisy NO. 25.
            Got a little bit a table for this classics.
            What will be also interesting when it comes available will be the Legends Cowboy Action Repeater BB gun.
            This thing looks really like a Winchester 1894 and is much more affordable than the Walther pellet version of it.
            I know it will not be a good as the Walther one, but only half the price.
            And I like that idea with ejecting BB-shells.☺



              • Thanks for the heads up about that BB. Will be still looking out for it.
                Gives me time for it to save for a Daisy 499.
                Or anything else what I have in mind.
                As a teenager I used to shoot this Diana 30 at the local fairs.
                Would bring back some good times.☺


  5. Michael
    We was talking the other day about shakiness and shooting and flying RC planes.

    You mentioned watching the radio control air planes hard to tell them apart from a full size plane flying at different heights. Then about seeing old full size p51’s flying over.

    I worked by a small airport. We use to see P51’s and other old warbirds fly over for a landing. Nothing like the sight and sound of a old Merlin or rotary engine and the old bird majestically passing by.


    • Michael
      Oh and I guess I should of mentioned I forgot what report we was talking on. I erased my emails so couldn’t reference back to reply there. That’s why I replied here.


      • Gunfun1,

        I found it!

        Your are right about the roar of the P51. I could hear it about a minute before I saw it, but I knew it was getting closer. What a glorious sound! Classic, big displacement, American motorcycles and hot rod cars. To that for a while now I have added to that the sound of a P51.

        There’s somebody nearby who has an early ’30s Ford Coupe with a hot rod engine, no hood, chopped and leaded close to the pavement, fat tires with plain rusty rims, and a natural, rusty, raw metal finish all around. No chrome or paint anywhere, including the exposed engine, a very industrial look, kind of like an automobile version of a bobber.

        Michael


        • Michael
          Yep with all you mentioned.

          And that old 30’s coupe from the way you described it is what they call “rat rods” now days.

          Kind of reminded me that back when we was kids and messing with muscle cars. We would sometimes drive the cars around primered in like gray or brown or black with no intensions on painting them. Was just the thing at the time.


  6. B.B.,

    A question for you,….

    Bench shooting rest. Are they specific for the type of shooting you are doing? Are they specific to the gun you are using? (powder burner, air rifle, PCP, springer, etc.?)

    You can have solid rest that adjust front and rear and can weigh a substantial amount. I have a plastic one that weighs 5#. Some absorb recoil. Then there is sand bags. They run the gamut on material, weight, size, fill, configuration and gun contact material. I used to use a hard front rest with a thin foam pad on top and if I wanted a rear support,.. I would “shim” with whatever was handy. It worked pretty well.

    One thing I do know,.. since I bought the MTM rest,.. my shooting is very steady even at higher magnifications. Steady is good. As illustrated from comments on this blog,… getting older often leads to less steady. Not so good, so much. 🙁

    So,… is there anything to be learned? With all of the options out there and costing anywhere from $30 to $300++,… what is a fellow to do? Do we use the rest only to sight in/test when we want precision,.. and then move to a front rest only? If we are less steady,.. then is a rest our only option?

    “Bottom line” you ask? For those that may be thinking about a rest,… what are the pro’s and con’s of what is offered out there? $ saving is good. Getting it right the first time is good.

    What is “good” in regards to a rest and what is there to consider?

    As always,…. Thanks!,… Just an idea,….. Chris 😉




      • B.B.,

        Well,… some historical perspective is always a good thing to put things into,… shall we say,… perspective! 😉

        I am thinking more of my fellow shooter,… who may be getting less steady,.. shall we say,… and how they, or me,…. can choose the best rest for the gun we are shooting. What I have is working well and is an improvement. But, is there better? What should I have considered? I rolled the dice on what I bought and it is doing well. But,.. I was a bit lost when searching for what I “thought” might work best. I figured that you have been “around that block” a time or two and might have an opinion on the matter. So yes,… maybe another blog idea.

        Chris




    • Chris,

      When I first began shooting my Diana 34P, I also purchase a set of Caldwell shooting bags. They seem to work very well for me. I can slide the small bag used at the back of the stock forward or backward to raise and lower the POA. They hold the rifle very steady and work well on my shooting table outside, or inside. They didn’t cost a lot and are light and easy to carry downstairs when I want to shoot inside as well.


      • Geo,

        Thank you. I did heavily consider them. Some front bags weighed 20# from what I recall. “Light” is a surprise and not something that I think would be a sought after feature. The rear stock on the RW is heavily undercut on the bottom and would react very differently to bags as opposed to a more conventional stock. Front to rear placement on the rear bag would result in very rapid POA changes. I may get a set yet.

        Chris


        • Chris,
          There is a set of light bags available. I think I saw a review of this by Matt Dubber. It’s what you want to pack when you travel to a shooting event.
          Gerald


        • These are the shooting bags I use: Caldwell DeadShot Shooting Bag Combo $29.99

          Made of durable, water-resistant 600 Denier polyester
          Quick-connect feature makes bag transport easy
          Front bag dimensions: 10″ wide x 8 1/2″ high x 6″ deep, rear bag
          Place them on almost any shooting surface
          Bags are shipped pre-filled with ground corn cob granules


          • Geo,

            Very nice. Corn cob granules. I can see how they kept the weight down now. I think B.B. has mentioned crushed Walnut shells in the past too.

            I may get a set yet with my next order. My only thought is having to adjust for each shot. The hard rest pretty well locks that in,…. but also requires an adjustment when switching elevations, even on the same target page. Raising the rear up (shouldering more) can fix that too though.

            Chris


          • Geo,

            I have those same bags, plus the Shooter’s Ridge “Monkey Bag” Rest. It’s a great little bag for when you don’t want to haul the larger ones around.

            Jim


  7. Well here is some info with my tethered Condor SS.

    Yes is what I will say first. Got the regulated pressure right. Yes getting very consistent velocity. Well group wise anyway. And I have not chronyed it yet. But I will at some point. And yes my hold overs are still the same as unregulated shooting with the proper fill pressure. And another yes. Getting 150 shots per fill with the 22 cubic inch Ninja bottle filled to 3000 psi down to the 1600 psi regulated pressure.

    Definitely happy with the set up so far. Here’s a couple pictures of how it looks on the bench and bag rest.



      • GF1,

        Glad it all worked out the way you wanted. Consistent shot control is a very nice thing to be able to attain. Lucky for you that you could get a spec. regulated tank for the reg. pressure you were seeking. Or, is the tank adjustable as well?


        • Chris
          And the thing too is that this bigger cubic inch bottle will work on the Gauntlet. But I would need a different bottle for the Gauntlet because it operates at a different regulated working pressure. Which would be no problem. He’s got the 22 cubic inch bottles regulated from 800 psi up to 1800 psi. Like in 200 psi increments.

          And the Ninja bottles are adjustable as well as the Air Venturi bottles. They just use different types of washers.


    • GF1,

      I thought you were going to swap out bottles. OK.

      Most people do run the AirForce air rifles way too hot for the best accuracy. It is that old need for speed thing.


      • RR
        Originally I was going to use the AirForce Co2 adapter and regulated bottle. Problem is that adapter doesn’t flow as much air as the bottle that comes on the Condor SS. And then also I would loose the volume that the AirForce bottle gives.

        So that’s why I tethered. I picked up volume using the 22 cubic inch bottle and let the bottle that came with the Condor SS do the work. The 22 cubic inch bottle is just along for the ride telling the Condor SS bottle how much air it can have.

        Plus I like that the 22 cubic inch bottle still will fit in my front jeans pocket fine.

        And also read my comment right above to Chris about using the bigger 22 cubic inch bottle on other guns that take the smaller 13 cubic inch bottles.


  8. Wow! What service! I post a question asking if someone can tell me the name of a German gallery gun I vaguely remember reading about and BB quickly clears up which gun I was thinking of and provides information about it. THEN he immediately gets one and starts a blog series about it AND I find out Diana is set to produce a new version AND it will be available from Pyramyd Air! I feel like I found a genie in a bottle and was granted three wishes! Many thanks for all this.

    P.S. To those considering the 499: Just get it. It’s perfect for indoor target shooting. It is small but still OK for an adult.





    • Carl,

      Very nice! Have fun and sell a bunch of your awesome spinners! 🙂 Keep the pics coming ((if you have time)). Always a very nice treat to get live reports from the field.

      Chris



      • GF1,

        Just got back from shooting and mowing ( not at the same time) 😉

        Today was windage check at various yardages. (.25 Red Wolf)
        1) 25, 30, 40 and 50 to start, no adjustment.
        2) Adjust the 50, 3 clicks in and verify
        3) Walked it back to verify at 40, 30, 25 and 20 while at the same time verifying hold overs/unders from previous shooting sessions. Windage is 100% on now.

        Next up was some 50 yard for accuracy. Fresh fill. I did 10 shots (plus) 1 pellet that was at extreme on weight,.. but same head.
        Target 1) 9/10 = .714″ and 10/10 = .899″ (1 unexplained weighed and head sorted flier blew it) ??? 🙁
        Target 2) 10/10 = .847″

        The “extreme” weight on the “off” pellet was only +.6 grains on the first target and +.5 grains on the 2nd target and was fired as the 11th shot. Both pellets landed too close (or) inside the other 10 shots. I need to ponder that test some more. 🙁 At least, the 50 yard is repeatable within 1/4″ so far. 🙂

        So,…. not much learned. Groups were good, but not as good as last weekend when they were closer to 1/2″ for 7/10. Finding JSB pellets in 25.39 grain that vary in head by much is a bit tuff. I got 2 groups of 6.37mm and 6.36mm with about a 60/40 respective split.

        I was rushing a bit at the end to get the grass mowed before it got too hot. I broke my own cardinal rule of not rushing and being totally relaxed. 🙁 Bad me.

        All in all,…. not a bad day,…. Chris

        I am thinking next time out might be some 100 yard testing. 🙂 Still need to study the head and weight issue a bit more too.


        • Chris
          Windy off and on here today. So not to good for testing out the Condor SS more.

          And not bad on the 50 yard shooting. Just for the heck of it next time out try a couple 10 shot groups at 50 with some unsorted pellets and see what happens. I’m curious to see how much it changes your group size.


          • GF1,

            I want to KNOW when I am shooting a pellet(s) that is off from the sorted ones AND how far off they are. How else will you ever know what the “fall off” point is? Prior test were done with unsorted and sorted. Very few test. The sorted did better,… but who is to say that I could not get “lucky” and pull 10 random ones that are all pretty close???? Close enough to not matter. JSB’s are pretty good right out of the tin,… ehh?

            JSB 25.39’s are all pretty close on head, but I did get a bit of a “bell curve” on weights. So far,… weights seem to matter little,… at least in the +.5 ~ +.6 grain range.

            Chris


            • Chris
              Some guns will shoot pretty much the same from day to day. Some guns won’t.

              What I try to do is see what a gun will do day after day and see if it repeats. Then make a change like sorting pellets or such and then shoot day after day and see.

              Sometimes what you think is happening on 2 days of shooting doesn’t happen on the next 3 days.

              It’s the guns that will repeat day after day are the ones I’m looking for now days.


              • GF1,

                So what you are saying is that temperature, climate and humidity have no effect on what is required of hold overs on any particular day?,….. It is all the gun? That seems to run counter to what you have said in the past with regards to taking detailed notes of weather and such.

                Why would one gun (not) be sensitive to climate and another be?

                X gun, X pellet, X climate. What of the 3 will change most often and likely have an impact on the other 2?

                Chris


                • Chris
                  I dont see anywhere in my comment that I said that.

                  And yes that’s exactly why I say shoot multiple days. There are lots of different variables that play a part in how the gun groups.

                  What needs done is to find out if there is consistency from day to day with groups.

                  That’s what I mean. Groups will change from day to day some amount.

                  So what I’m getting at is maybe if you shoot enough. Certian days with unsorted pellets might get better groups than with sorted pellets.

                  Shooting and notes is the way as you know.


                  • GF1,

                    Ok,.. we agree on that. And yes,.. there are may variables that (can) come into play. You did however (seem) to make a distinction from a gun that will shoot the same day in day out,… and,… others that will not.

                    “That’s what I mean. Groups will change from day to day some amount.”,.. you say. I do not disagree there at all.

                    My question is why? If not the gun, if not the pellet, if not you,… then what?


                    • Chris
                      Some guns that do repeat theirselfs from day to day may have to do with tolerances of the barrel and other things of the gun. More forgiving as to pellet fit and such.

                      Maybe those gun’s that repeat from day to day are more forgiving with hold and such.

                      Probably comes down to variables of the guns characteristics if you know what I mean.



          • GF1,

            Well,.. your weather is about 24 hrs. ahead of mine,.. most of the time anyways. My tomorrow is like yours today.

            By the way,… the Ghost peppers are starting to come off. Rather wicked looking little creatures they are! Aldi’s has some Carolina Reaper pepper paste if you are interested. A squeeze tube. I did a pea size drop in about 3 tablespoons of salsa and it did kick up the heat nice but was still perfectly edible. A,… lingering “warmth”,.. shall we say. 😉


            • Chris
              We have a Aldi’s pretty close to us. I will have to check out the pepper paste.

              And wonder why they are named “ghost” peppers. I think you know what I mean. 🙂




              • Decksniper
                Just checked my emails and reading the replies.

                But yep on the sorted and unsorted pellets. The more days spent with a gun shooting the more you will see.

                Just when I think I got something figured out it changes. Go figure. Definitely will make you hmm sometimes.





  9. I did hear a story from the guy who runs the toys that shoot show. Originally the show was held in a church and there was a prayer session directed at the attendees and vendors. I guess B.B. was drove all the way from Ohio to Texas whereupon arriving home his car broke down in the driveway. If that’s not an example of the power of prayer I don’t know what is.
    Carl


  10. B.B.,

    Here is another “one” for you,….. like you need more,.. ehh??? 🙂

    Today,… I was verifying hold over and under. I have previous notes. Good notes. Verified with multiple shots,.. notes.

    Then,… today I might get a change of 1/4 ~ 1/2 mil dot in hold over/under. Usually closer to 1/4 dot. Mmmmm????

    I do know the pro’s will use side wheels (big ones) that have 3 ranges of temp readings. Maybe other stuff too. Humidity as well I am sure.

    So,… How common is it that your (known/usual) hold over is a bit off due to temperature and or climate changes? What is the “pros” take on the topic? Is that why they have sight in sessions prior to competition,…. because those changes (do) occur on a day to day basis? A (warm up session) is something different than a,.. (“I need to verify my holdover”) session,. I would think.

    One would like to think that after they have put the time and effort into establishing accurate hold overs,… that the work is done. Done. Perhaps,…. not?

    As always,… Thanks,… and just an idea,…. Chris 😉


    • Chris
      Waiting to see what BB says about your question too.

      And I have seen my holdovers vary from a cooler day outside to a warmer day. And that was from shooting from the breezeway where the gun and scope stays a pretty consistent temperature.


      • GF1,

        Me too. I have seen,.. or at least suspected such in the past. But with a high mag. scope, solid rest and decent gun,…. I now can more clearly see and be assured of what I am doing and separate the me from the other things.

        Perhaps the more refined aspects can be lumped into a blog titled,… “What to do when it comes time to split hairs”,…?



        • Chris
          Here ya go.

          This was 4 guns shot yesterday and today. Weind was off and on both yesterday and today.

          But not only check out group size. But check out the poi change. And the group’s shot are 10 shots at 50 yards.

          I think that target shows pretty well what can happen on one given day to the next.



          • GF1,

            Not bad. But,… I would not draw too much from that,.. myself. One,.. I think too many shots per bull and two,… too scattered.

            On sorted and unsorted shooting,… that is just what it is. A true test will take into account all variables and have them quantified. It is too easy to sort both head and weight. There is no excuse to not do it. That is one more thing you can control. If you are going to introduce some “off” pellets into a test,… at least know what they are. How else do you accurately access your results?


            • Chris
              They were all 10 shot groups.

              And that’s exactly what I’m talking about. You need to shoot multiple days with unsorted pellets and multiple days with sorted pellets and compare.

              That was only 2 days of shooting. That’s not nearly enough days to see the varition of the group’s.

              And really the test should be indoors in controlled conditions if you want to get true results.

              And just curious. What are you doing with your sorted pellets that don’t seem to be accurate enough for you out of your guns?


              • GF1,

                Yes, I caught that they were 10. So were mine on Sun. and the “off” pellet(s) landed too close to the rest to show.

                +.5 grain and +.6 grain, same heads, on the 11th shots.

                Less shots per group may be needed. Plus, we are talking 3 test here,
                1) head sort
                2) weight sort
                3) Day to day change (possibly due to climate conditions)

                So far, they all shoot well. Nothing specific does best. “extreme” pellets on head and or weight are used to introduce into the main group. Point is, I know what those are too and then possibly correlate a cause/effect.


                • Chris
                  Sounds like alot of days of testing and a long time to do shooting just 1 day of the week.

                  And I guess your leading up to try to beat your hundred yard shots of the past?


                • Chris
                  Ok here is a third day of shooting the same 4 guns at 50 yards. And yes these are 10 shot groups. And yes unsorted JSB pellets right from the tin.

                  Oh and it’s even a fine steady sprinkle outside. And absalutly calm.

                  But take note how the poi of the group’s changed also today from the groups above.

                  I won’t post no more days of shooting. But maybe you can see how groups change from day to day.

                  Got to shoot and collect data. As I always say.

                  And yes that is a flyer on the Gauntlet group. As it goes. Where do they come from.


                  • GF1,

                    Kind of hard to see without a side by side. My bottom line on shooting from the tin VS sorted is,…. if you get the same results, or near, all you have done is determine that your choice of pellets is pretty good “from the tin”.

                    My question is why do you get a flier? Yes, it could be many things. But, I am exploring the weight and head sort issue in relation to that question. Only by weigh and head sort of ALL pellets will I know if it is head or weight related. If it is not,… then it must be something else,… me?,… gun,… ???. But,… at least I WILL know that it is not weight or head related.


                    • Chris
                      I done the head sorting and weighing in the past. Still got flier’s.

                      And tryed different brand pellets back then too. What I did find though was that the JSB pellets had less fliers than the other brands right out of the tin or sorted.

                      So maybe it’s something to do with the way the pellet is shaped and maybe the balance of the pellet. What I mean is maybe the weight is more in the right place with JSB pellets.

                      Sorting for weight and head diameter is one thing. But probably more to it than just that.

                      But the flier’s definitely make you go what the heck when they happen.


                • Chris
                  Oh and forgot.

                  How do I know it wasn’t windy out when it was sprinkling rain.

                  When wind socks or flags get wet they are weighted down from the rain. They usually give a false reading when they are wet.

                  Can’t watch leaves on trees blowing either for the same reason.

                  But wait. How do I really know where that shot will hit?




  11. B.B.,

    Ever heard of a Western Ward 489A? Side loads in the side of the butt stock. .22 LR. Seen pics. The fellow that has it thinks it worth about $15,000. ???? I do not know. I am sure that he bought it at rock bottom prices at an auction. Like a $100, or less.

    Chris


  12. PRECISION What is it?

    We can learn a great deal about what we think it is here on B.B.s blog (his blog is about airgunsmiths not specifically ballistics) but the best source I have found that continues to grow better with time is at this link:

    http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Home

    It will take some reading and probably a bit of head scratching but you will understand what PRECISION means to a shooter. It’s got some math, but not too much, but it also has graphics if you don’t want to go into the math.

    Probably find new ways to see how good that last group was by various known shooting professionals standards.

    Take a good look and you will learn at least one thing new.

    I promise.

    shootski



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