by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
l
Sig Sauer P320 M17 pellet pistol.
This report covers:
- M17 differences
- M17 pellet pistol
- My grand plan
- What’s up?
- Lookalikes are coming to the top
- Back to the M17 pellet pistol
- Operation
- Disassembly
- Same heft
- Summary
To all our American readers I want to wish a very happy Thanksgiving. Now, on to today’s report.
On January 19, 2017 it was announced that the U.S. Army had selected the Sig Sauer P320 pistol for their new Modular Handgun System. The full-sized gun is called the M17 and the carry-sized weapon is the M18. The rest of the U.S. armed forces also have or will have this sidearm. The nominal caliber for the U.S. military is the 9X19mm pistol cartridge that is best-known as the 9mm Luger.
M17 differences
The M17 is not just a P320 by a different name. The Army specified certain performance requirements for their pistol and they require Sig to maintain a strict separation in their plants between Army contract guns and similar civilian guns. This not only covers the finished guns but also all parts.
M17 pellet pistol
Today I begin the test of the Sig M17 pellet pistol — a 20-shot semiautomatic pellet pistol that closely copies the M17 service pistol. It comes in Coyote Tan — the same finish as the firearm, and, just like on the firearm, the metal slide is a little darker than the synthetic frame. On the firearm the slide is stainless steel. The pellet pistol slide is a non-ferrous metal. Both pistols have synthetic frames, though the firearm does has stainless steel inserts for wear resistance.
On the tour of Sig we watched them machine solid billets of steel into finished firearm slides.
My grand plan
Sig says the pellet pistol weighs and hefts very much like the firearm and I decided to check out that claim. If you have read this blog for most of this year you know what I am about to say, but I restate it here to inform the newer readers. At this year’s Shot Show in January, Bob Li of Action Support Games (ASG) introduced me to the CZ75 SP-01 Shadow BB pistol. He was so taken with that BB gun because of how closely it copies the firearm. I have already done a 4-part report on the BB pistol, and in that report I informed you that I purchased a 9mm CZ75 SP-01 firearm so I could evaluate Bob’s claim.
That started the ball rolling, and when I visited the Sig booth at the same show, Dani Navickas put the new Sig P365 BB pistol in my hand (still not on the market as of this writing). I was blown away by the small size of the BB pistol. Because it is an exact copy of the firearm, I bought one in 9mm, as well, so I could test both of them side-by-side, as well. That firearm has turned out to be my new carry pistol and is also my new favorite all-around handgun. A HUGE report is awaiting the release of that BB pistol.
And then in July Sig sent out an email announcing a limited run of commemorative M17 pistols for civilians. I tried to place an order for one, but they were all sold before I could get my order in. They had been probably all been sold since the SHOT Show. But Sig did have a similar 9mm P320 M17 pistol that was available (it gets confusing, right?). Would I be interested in one of them? It is a close copy of the Army M17 and, since the Army pistol started out as a P320, I was interested. A third order was placed for a third firearm that has an airgun equivalent!
What’s up?
What am I doing? Have I lost my mind? Why am I buying firearms to go along with air pistols? Isn’t that backwards? The answer is one word — realism. Lookalike airguns have been around for decades, but this new crop is so realistic that it bears further scrutiny.
These new guns weigh the same, look the same, have the same controls, handle the same and fit in the same holsters. You will have an extremely hard time telling one from another when they are both in your hands, and I wanted to be on the ground floor of this movement.
Lookalikes are coming to the top
When people ask me what’s big in airguns these days I always say hunting, and more specifically, big bore hunting. That is where the sharp point of the principal market increase has been for about a decade.
BUT — and this is a really big but — lookalike airguns have also arrived and are heating up to become the next major theme. Shooters today don’t have the same background as people from my generation. They haven’t been exposed to firearms through many diverse channels while growing up, so a realistic sidearm that’s a pellet or BB pistol suddenly makes sense in a way it never did in the past. It provides a way for a shooter to train on something that is realistic yet far safer and less expensive to operate, and that multiplies their possible trigger time. This new Sig M17 pellet pistol fits comfortably into this exciting category and I now have the 9mm pistol to compare it to.
That’s what’s behind this mega-series that I’m writing. I haven’t even figured out all the tests I need to do with both the airguns and the firearms they copy. But I will! I love my job!
Back to the M17 pellet pistol
Sig showed us this pistol while we airgun writers were with them in July (to see the development of the ASP20 breakbarrel rifle) and I was amazed to see just how accurate it is. We all shot it at 10 meters and one of our number — John Bright of Highland Outdoors in the UK — shot incredibly small groups. I tried to keep up with him to no avail. That Brit can shoot!
John Bright used the M17 pellet pistol to school the rest of us on how it’s done.
Operation
The pistol operates in the conventional way, by a CO2 cartridge in the grip. The cartridge fits inside a removable drop-free magazine assembly that also houses a 20-round removable pellet magazine. I reviewed the Sig X-Five ASP pellet pistol for you back in June-August of this year. You might think, like I did, that the M17 is just the X-Five in a different color, but you would be wrong. The magazine assembly of the M17 is entirely different than the one found on the X-Five ASP. In the M17 both the pellet clip and the CO2 cartridges fit inside the same drop-free mag assembly, where in the X-Five they are separate.
The bottom of the mag assembly pops off and the back pulls down as a lever for piercing the CO2 cartridge.
The pellets and CO2 both fit in the M17 mag assembly. Push that button (yellow arrow) and the pellet clip (blue arrow) pops out of the assembly for loading.
Disassembly
One thing these lookalike guns do that appeals to everyone is disassemble. They don’t always have the same parts as the firearms they copy, but the method of disassembly is usually the same.
The M17 pellet pistol comes apart in a way similar to the firearm.
Same heft
Like the firearm, the pellet pistol has a synthetic frame and a metal slide. It has full blowback, so you get the impulse of firing and the weight of the slide gives a good whack to your hand every time the pistol fires.
I have both the pellet pistol and the firearm. I will tell you this — the P320 M17 firearm is a little different than the straight M17. I won’t bore you with the minutia, but my P320 M17 firearm is single action only while the military M17 is DAO. The pellet pistol is DAO as well, so when you fire the gun the blowback action of the slide advances the magazine to the next pellet but the trigger is still double action. That said, this is the lightest double action I have ever encountered. The specs say 6 pounds to pull the trigger and I have to admit that it feels that light. I think the next-lightest double action pull I have ever measured was more than 9 pounds.
The P320 M17 pellet pistol on top and the P320 M17 firearm below. The air pistol has an extended mag that’s also available for the firearm.
Summary
I have more to tell you about the pistol before we begin testing the gun, but this is where I stop today. Since I have already shot this gun for accuracy I know how this test is going to turn out, so if this pistol is on your gift radar, I say yes right now.
Spot the difference, a very realistic replica indeed.
Looking forward to the accuracy testing and
must add it to my short list as I only have one pistol
Friend Tom,
Not Airgun related but rather life saving related. Apologies.
My ccw has been a micro desert eagle for years. Primarily because of size. I understand .380 vs 9mm and capacity arguments but in my personal experience size matters because you may not carry. How do you carry the cz75 sp-01?
Kevin,
The P365 is larger than the Micro Desert Eagle, no question about that. But the DE holds 7? cartridges, while the 365 holds 11. I carry in an ankle holster that works well for either pistol.
The CZ75 SP-01 must be carried in an exposed holster as it is a very large handgun. So it’s not for concealed carry but for open carry that is legal here in Texas.
B.B.
B.B.
Happy Thanksgiving one and all!
Wish there was more to be thankful for this year…
-Yogi
Yogi,
I have asked the Lord to show me as many of His blessings as possible, so I can thank Him, and I have been overwhelmed. He is blessing me hundreds of times each day. And He told me He isn’t showing me everything — just what I can handle. Every day is Thanksgiving at my house.
B.B.
Amen!
Have a Blessed Thanksgiving!
“Every day is Thanksgiving at my house.”
Awesome! Amen to that. =>
BB
That is the truth.
B.B.,
Happy Thanksgiving!
May the year be full of God’s bountiful blessings for you and all your readers!
shootski
shootski,
I accept that. Thank you! 🙂
B.B.
Amen to that B.B. I hope this particular day of Thanksgiving was joyful for you and yours. God bless.
Looking forward to reading about this particular SIG as well.
Jim
Yogi,
I do not know if you are a believer; but feel compelled to share this with you:
For I know the plans I have for you.
Declares the Lord,
Plans to prosper you
and not harm you
Plans to give you hope
and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11
May you find more to be thankful for today and in the future!
shootski
“…a realistic sidearm that’s a pellet or BB pistol suddenly makes sense in a way it never did in the past.”
B.B.,
You nailed it there! When my Dad went for his training from a certified instructor to get the necessary letter to get a carry permit in his state, I offered him the use of my Crosman 357 pellet revolver. I said he hadn’t shot a pistol in a long time, and the air pistol functioned like a revolver and would be good practice for him.
He laughed it off, saying it “wasn’t a real gun.”
Lo and behold, at his course, the instructor was using…Crosman 357 CO2 revolvers (just like mine, hahaha!);
he told the class, “these function and shoot like actual firearms and will allow us to train more of you quickly
and without the need for an actual firearm range.
So yes, lookalike airguns, realistic airgun copies of firearms, have a very legitimate place in the shooting world.
Wishing a blessed and Happy Thanksgiving to all,
dave
A couple of questions (I have one of these already):
1. Red dot mounting?
2. Either on the Sig website, or the manual, there was a statement that BBs can be used also?
And a few comments:
– I see legislation coming soon to ban these…
– I hope we don’t see any of these used in “suicide by cop.”
– It is very realistic to my eye.
Richard,
Welcome to the blog.
For a red dot, use a wraparound mount that attaches to the rail in front of the triggerguard.
BBs? They will fit in this magazine, but why would anyone do that? The pistol is designed for pellets so BBs will be inaccurate — even more than they normally are, because the barrel is too large.
B.B.
Thanks for all our blessings everywhere, including this special group.
Jumpin
The question about BBs was in regard to doing transition practice, not shooting for accuracy on paper. It sure would be cheap practice at $7 / 4000 BBs…
I read on Alder’s Blog that the slide plate is not removable, just there for cosmetic accuracy, so you can’t mount something like a Romeo on top. (There is a video on YouTube that says it is removable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTzZnJBYBmg)
Thanks for the reply.
Actually, the slide plate is in fact removable – but I have no idea if it is anything at all like on the real pistol.
Being in Canada it’s impractical to ever have a real pistol, so there’s no chance I’m paying hundreds for optics, but I was curious to see if there was a way I could mount a cheap optic on it.
I did take some pictures of the plate removed though:
https://imgur.com/a/SSmZ9oY
happy Thanksgiving to all.
B.B., this is a very good report. to quote rigde runner,”you are the great enabler”. It seems like karma that I chose the Sig-MPX in FDE way back when it came out. The pistol would make it a set.
Gerald
Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate and to our foreign friends, take a moment to meditate on all you have to be thankful for (this blog is one for me!). BB, I’ve kind of fallen in love with Kahr’s line of pistols – the polycarbonate, DAO 9’s. I use the CM9 as my CCW and just acquired the p9 (if you watch Blue Bloods, that’s the sidearm the Danny Reagan character uses). Kahr was the back-up/off duty firearm of choice for NYPD but the brass decided the trigger pull was too light and removed it as an option . NYPD insists on a 12 lb trigger which is why the police there have a 20% accuracy score. My Kahr has a 7 lb, non-stacking pull and it’s very smooth. I wish now that there was a CO2 replica for me to train on but nothing available to date. Just wanted to let you know that there are other semi DAO’s with relatively light trigger pulls.
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now Happily in GA (another blessing!)
Fred,
Thanks for that. I was not aware there were other DAO triggers that light.
Happy Thanksgiving.
B.B.
A Blessed Thanksgiving to All!
This is a little off subject, but since it is Thanksgiving I thought many would enjoy watching this today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR6yA59LcRQ
And then for your listening pleasure we have this golden oldie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o4x_-sHcdo
RR,
Thanks for that link. I haven’t thought of Alice’s Eatery in ages. Had a right proper chuckle!
Half
Halfstep
The local radio station plays Alice’s Restraunt every Thanksgiving. KSHE95. I just got through listening to it.
It’s like a Thanksgiving tradition here. What can I say.
My comment about the look alike guns is positive overall. Umarexs line is appealing to me, I have a luger, and the Mauser broomhandle. I also have the Gamo PR 776 revolver. I have a airsoftTaurus 9mm, I got a great deal on it, its allot cheaper than a “real” Beretta, yuk yuk. What I have discovered is, practicing with a good lookalike, translates directly to firing a powder burner. I went to the range with my brother, to shoot .22’s, and his new Berretta.
It took him a second trip to the range to get on the paper reliably.I had no trouble, after a sounding shot, with double taps and triples.I was aiming at a 1′ bull at twenty yds, and getting nice clusters. He’s getting a trainer for Xmas.
Mechanical reliability is an issue with many lookalikes, I modded the gamo to shoot well but I wish it came from the factory made better. How do folks store their collections of co2 guns? They start to take up allot of space..
Happy Turkey day folks!
Rob
B.B. and everyone,
I am thankful for this blog and all of the great people posting on it 🙂
HAPPY THANKSGIVING DAY!
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
And thought I would say what I just got with a Black Friday deal.
But first this was kind of strange. Got a email saying PA was having a 11% off and free shipping on orders over a $149.00. so I hurried up and got my items in the shopping cart. Went to order on the PA site and the sale was gone off the top of the website. Still haven’t seen it anymore. So never did get a code.
Then I got a email from AGD. They have the same sale all weekend long. And just say’n since I’m pretty sure they are a part of PA if I remember right. So ordered from them.
But anyway back to what I ordered. And this had to do with what I have been trying to figure out. I want to get a spring gun or multi-pump gun to have in case my hpa compressor needs rebuilt or fails. That way I can keep shooting till I repair the compressor. And yep I do have a hand pump as a back up for the pcp’s too. Oh and I do have .177 guns already. The FWB 300 and HW30s. So what I want to do is get something in .22 caliber and .25 caliber so I have something to shoot in all calibers.
Right now the gun I just got is in .22 caliber. The .25 caliber gun is going to need a bit more research before I get the one I want that will do what I want.
And here’s what I got.
/product/benjamin-392-pump-air-rifle?m=205
And got this scope mount for it. I already got a extra Hawke 3-12 power sidewinder laying around. And I already got a idea what I’m going to do to the scope mounts for some extra attaching security.
/product/air-venturi-intermount-fits-benjamin-sheridan-multi-pump-rifles?a=2015
Just figured I would mention it if anyone was interested.
Again. Happy Thanksgiving.
GF1,
I really have to warn you about that scope mount. As it mounts on the barrel, it can place a strain on the solder joint and break it loose. That is a problem many have had with it.
Baker Airguns has a mount that fits over the breech block, thereby avoiding that issue. It also allows you to use Weaver, Picatinney and dovetail mounts. You might reconsider that mount.
RR,
I think he bought one that fits over the receiver assembly and includes the piccy rail. I, on the other hand, just received in the mail yesterday, the mount that you are warning about. I wasn’t aware of the other mount, darn it!
Does it break the barrel loose from the pump housing because it wedges between them as you tighten it or is it because the weight of the scope twists the barrel left and right ’til the joint gives?
Half
Halfstep
Yep and I just posted the picture of it.
Half,
I am not certain of the wedging, but the weight of the scope and mounts eventually break the barrel loose.
Now this barrel mount would likely work well on my Crosman 101 if it fits the barrel diameter. I may end up trying this setup out in the future.
RR
Nope your thinking of the Crosman barrel mounts.
The Air Venturi mounts go on the breech.
Go to the link I gave for the Air Venturi
mount and look at the second picture. It wraps around the breech. That’s the only reason I got the mount. Distinctly because it don’t mount on the barrel.
And my additional security I’m talking about is what I’m going to do with the two clamps that mount on the breech. I’m going to drill holes in the side and tap each hole and put setscrews in that will keep the mounts from rotating. What I’m going for with that is so the scope and mounts won’t cant to one side or the other like the barrel mount ones do and you loose your windage sight in. Although the set screw in the side of the Crosman barrel mount ones should help stabilize it too.
Anyway I been wanting one of these 392’s again. Had one as a kid. They were nice solid air guns back then. And just want to see if I feel the memory again when I hold one again and here that pump clack again.
I know not a great reason to make the choice to get it. But hey you know how that goes. 🙂
RR
Here’s the picture of the mount.
OK, that will work. You might consider a little scope tape in there.
RR
Yep that would probably be a good idea. That is depending on how precise the fit it is.
I will look into the tape though when I get it.
GF1,
On another totally different subject, I am most interested in acquiring an HW30 for my grandson.
RR
I’m thinking you will enjoy a HW30s as much as your grandson if you get one.
I still have that Williams peep sight on mine with the Gehman adjustable peep on it. It’s a nice little combination. I have already taken squirrel with it out hunting with my squirrel dog. A very nice relaxing setup for sure.
GF1,
I also was thinking of a peep once he learned the regular sights well.
RR
Let me know if you get one.
On the subject of CO2 guns most especially lookalikes, I myself do not have much interest in them. Having said that, if this one is real accurate I may change my mind. Also, I am hoping one day that someone will adapt this belt feed to powerful and accurate air rifles of the HPA kind.
RR
Yep I would love to see a belt fed pellet shooting pcp rifle that advances the belt off of the trigger mechanism.
I’m thinking it would be cheaper for us air gunners to buy then the semi-autos like the Hatsan Sortie-tacts and FX Monsoons and Revolution’s and so on.
GF1,
Oh I don’t know about that, but it sure would be fun to have a belt fed “machine gun” something like a MG42. Air Ordnance has the SMG22, but by using the belt links as the “chamber” you are limited to the power level and with it and the Sig belt you have a lot of “leakage” with such. I myself would need the links to be quite robust and seal well or have a probe strip the pellet and insert it into the chamber and seal it.
There is still a ways to go with this.
RR
Definitely a ways to go. But also alot of things happening in the air gun world now days. I would say it might be a possibility one day. We’ll see.
I am pretty sure that the Sigs the army have adopted are falling apart
I got this gun delivered yesterday. I caught it on sale at AGD and had some bonus points so I jumped on it. Was afraid to wait ’til after the full review, since it hadn’t even started ’til today. I think it is still on sale and if GunFun is right you can get another 11% off that.
Half
Halfstep
From reading the comments above. I’m guessing you got the Crosman barrel mounts. And you got the 392?
And I didn’t see the sale your talking about.
I’m thinking only the 11% off and free shipping over a $149.00.
And I would like to know how yours does if you did get the 392.
Gunfun,
I’m sorry. I guess I wasn’t very clear about which gun I was referring to. The M17 is on sale at AGD. I just checked and it is still on sale.
As for the 392, I already have one and I can’t get the rear sight low enough to keep from shooting over the top of my aim point. At 40 yards it might be on target if I crank it all the way down to the stops, but then the adjustment screw is sticking up in the middle of the rear notch. Even at that I have to get my face down to an uncomfortable position on the stock. I discussed this some time back when the topic was peep sights. I bought a Williams peep and I can’t adjust it down far enough either. It’s like the barrel is bored or mounted with an upward slant. I asked, back then, if anyone else had this problem and didn’t get any response, so I think it is a defect in the gun. I’d like to know how your gun shoots, at say 20 yards, with open sights, before you scope it. My gun is over 3 inches high at that distance with the rear sight down as far as it goes.
I bought the Benjamin Intermount to try to use a scope in the scout rifle position on the barrel. Now that I know that could break the solder, I may try a lighter red dot sight.
Half
Halfstep
Soon as I read you had the 392 I remembered you was having problems with it shooting high.
What distance are you shooting it at? I will have to try when I get mine and see what happens before I scope it.
GF1
3″ high at about 20 yards with 6 o’clock hold on a 1″ black dot. And thanks for checking for me. I hope yours isn’t like mine, because I know you will probably want to try the peep sight at some point and it won’t adjust down far enough either. Well it will adjust down enough but you can’t put your cheek on the stock to use it. Your eye will be too high in the air to look through the peep hole properly.
I wonder if I could rasp an anti-cheek riser into my stock to solve the problem. Might look weird, but could work….hmmm.
Half
Halfstep
You made me think of something. I never had sighting problems when I had mine when I was a kid. I was probably about 12 or so years old when I had it.
What I’m getting at is maybe the stock is made for smaller people or youths. The Walther LGU I had kind of had a high comb and was like you describe with what you are getting with your 392 as far as getting the line of sight right.
I’m not no super big guy but I’m not small either. I’ll see what it feels like when I get my 392 and let you know.
And no this gun is not getting a peep sight or even a dot sight. And I really want the scope mounting to work out. I want it scoped. I’m hoping I can get some squirrel hunting in with it. I know I took my fair share of squirrels when I was a kid with one and it was unscoped back then. But that’s the way I shot back then also.
I’m excited to get it. And even more so to see what it’s like after hearing about your exsperiances. I hope mine does as well as I remember it from the one I had as a kid. We’ll see.
Thought of this the other day.
Does the 30 minute edit feature delay our reply’s 30 minutes before they post now. I’m guessing yes.
So that now means if we are talking back and forth in a conversation it will take longer to see the other person’s reply until their 30 minutes is up.
Is that true?
If so maybe good in a way as to less comments to oversee on BB’s part. But also maybe less responses because of not being able to answer back for whatever reasons that could be going on with that person at that time. Maybe why less reply’s lately. Don’t know. Just a thought.
GF1,
The clock says 4:03, You posted at 3:53, that means the post is now?
Mike
Mike
Right now it’s 3:32 when I’m replying to you.
GF1,
You are Central time, right now 4:38 Eastern time.
Mike
edited to add there is no delay
Mike
So yep mine is still the same as before we had editing. My post always is a hour later than when I do it.
So wonders what happens if you make a reply and it may not be right. Does everyone see it. Then if I change it to something completely different in that time frame of 30 minutes. What reply does everyone see?
I’m guessing the last reply I make in that given edit time of 30 minutes.
Not that it all matters. But do you see what I mean.
GF1,
I guess they see it as you posted it, if they refresh the page after your edit they will see the new post. To keep from confusing each other I would say leave the original post and edit in the correction below, unless it is just a spelling or grammar thing.
I have a 300 dollar China, YONG HENG pump in my sights at $221.90 I should pull the trigger. No trouble with yours yet? Have you had to change the oil or anything?
Mike
Mike
Your probably right about the posting and refreshing.
And like I mentioned to Chris when we was talking the other day. No problems yet with the China compressor. Knock on wood. And nope no oil change yet. Getting a little discolored but not bad at all.
GF1,
Yes I saw you mention that to Chris, but stuff always has a habit of breaking without any warning.
I think I would change it before it gets dark, oil and cooling are the most important things for sure.
Mike
Mike
Yep on both accounts of oil and cooling.
But surprisingly there seems to be very little color change of the oil. But then again I don’t work it hard. The most my compressor see’s is a minute and 30 seconds just filling guns. So it really don’t run long at all. And it’s temperature gauge usually only see’s 40 Celsius per gun fill.
Basically I don’t think I’m working the compressor hard at all. But as it goes falure can happen at any time. That’s just the way it goes.
GF1,
From what I have seen when I have tried it,.. if I post and wait 15 minutes,… then edit the post,… I still only have 15 minutes left. The clock starts from the original post. I do not think it will affect the # of post’s at all in any way.
Chris
Chris
What I mean is. If I post right now.
And I don’t edit my comment. Does it take 30 minutes before you or other readers see it?
GF1
My post below popped right up, no delay.
GF1,
When you and I were posting back and forth the other day, about the new edit feature, we were seeing each other’s responses in “real time”, so I am going to say there is no delay.
Jim M.
Jim
Yep believe your right.
Air Gun Storage
Above 1stblue asked about storing his growing collection of CO2 airguns.
For starters a metal two draw locking file cabinet works just fine. Then you may have to move on to a 6′ double door locker with adjustable shelves. It helps with long guns that eventually seek shelter.
If you get seriously expensive airguns a real gun safe is highly recommended.
Now by this time your closet may be getting pretty full so a metal door with a dead bolt lock adds to your peace of mind.
Need more room for all your airguns and accessories? OK, empty a bedroom… well I suppose you could leave a convertible couch in it, and fill it with industrial shelving, lockers and gun safes … voilà, problem solved. However I would include the aforementioned steel, dead bolted, door and window bars, not to mention increasing your insurance.
Now … If that begins to be a real inconvenience don’t worry ! Rental storage is widely available in infinitely optional capacities. Hope this helps anyone getting seriously interested in Airguns ! 🙂
Speaking of giving thanks on this fine, first rainy southern CA day in months, occasion. I sincerely thank Tom and everyone in this blog for sharing their knowledge, help and recognition. I consider this site more than an airgun blog. A place where mature sincere knowledgeable airgunners gather to share their interests in life as well as their airgun hobby.
When I was younger I wondered why people were praying to God for everything from passing a test to winning a lottery when word was out that ” God helps those who help themselves “. I stopped praying for things and started thanking Him for the blessings he bestowed on me that enabled me to be successful on my own. People just need to recognize them.
I celebrate Thanksgiving every night by asking His forgiveness for any wrongs I may have done. Thanking Him for all the blessings I received and asking him to help others and guide the world into becoming a better place. It has worked for me !
Bob M
Bob
Yes.
Happy Thanks-giving to all,…
It would be hard to beat all of the great “thanks” related comments already posted. Me? A job, bills paid, a warm house, no lack of food, a newer car, my health and the health of my family. The gravy on the taters would be a savings and enough left over to indulge my air gun interests. Last, but certainly not least,…. I am thankful for all of the great folks here. Simple enough.
Chris
Happy Thanksgiving everyone,
Pyramyd AIR sent me a Thanksgiving card so I will pass it back, boy am I stuffed.
Now perhaps a short shot of Scotch.
Mike
edit to add, bummer the gif does not dance here.
It was expected to jump between the image above and the one below.
They missed doing the mil-dot cross hairs on that one! Looks like about a one dot low and one dot left to me. 😉
Chris,
I guess they pardoned the Turkey this year, would have been cool to have the cross hairs in there.
Mike
Chris
Ain’t that what they call Kentucky Windage.
Yep your definitely right. They should of had a reticle on that turkey. 🙂
Chris
Don’t know if you seen it. They have the Diana Chaser air rifle kit on sale for $99.00 right now.
I know you mentioned the other day you was interested in one but they were out of stock. Both .177 and .22 caliber are in stock right now. Just thought I would mention it.
GF1,
I did see. I spent the morning looking into any mag. issues (load pellet skirt first????), reviews, etc.. Then, B.B.s had the trigger go from a nice 2.5# back to 5-6# for no reason. Also, the lack of any leade. I want it scoped and have one that would work,.. with rings, but then a red dot, reflex, laser might be nice and keep it more compact and light. Rail is pretty minimal. I did some scaling on the computer screen (based on the overall length of the pistol) and came up wit 2 1/2″ at rear and 3/4″ at front with an overall of 4″. The barrel band has that P/W under,… so a laser might be an option there too.
I missed the 15%. It looks like the 11% is (not) combined with free shipping if under $150. I do believe that they offered that recently, but with a lesser off %.
I was even thinking of .177 unless someone offers some opposing info.. I will be looking at it fresh in the A.M.. No rush here as I can not shoot in Winter like you. 3-4 tins of 25.39’s are all I (really) need.
Chris
Chris
Ok thought I would mention it. Didn’t know if you seen it.
And no the 11% is not free shipping under $150.00. But I thought you said you was going to get some pellets with the Diana order if I remember right. A pellet order won’t take nothing to make $50.00 more to make your 11% order.
Let me know if you go for it.
GF1,
My “gut” now is no. I might try to get a 15% plus the $150 free shipping (gun + pellets) over the Christmas holiday,.. if it happens. Even it is the same deal as now,…. I have no rush. If going .177,… I was thinking the JSB 10.34’s that you like. The leade can be polished/tapered. The trigger can be lubed better,… I am sure. The backwards loading mag.?,… what idiot thought that concept up?
Another thing,… I do not know enough about electronic sights. I have looked through an open reflex and liked it a whole lot. Even switched the view/reticle. Lasers would be sweet,… but not so sure if they would show well in daylight,.. if needed. I need to understand the power levels/ratings first and the MOA of each. Not much use if the dot/laser covers 3″ at 25 yards eh? 6″ at 100 yards seems to be about the worst I have seen. That would be 3″ at 50 yards,… ? 1 1/2″ at 25,….?
Chris
Chris
Haven’t seen many lasers that work good in daylight.
The good ones you tend to have to pay a price for them. I got a good one and you can definitely tell the difference in performance compared to the lower cost ones.
And yep you need a small dot for a dot sight to work good. Also the dot sights with multiple brightness settings is a benefit.
GF1,
On a laser,… a good one,… that is still only good at a fixed yardage,.. yes? Just like a scope. If the laser is dead on at 50 yards and you are shooting 100 yards,…. then a laser (still requires a hold over),… just like a scope?
Chris
Chris
What I mean about a good laser is how far out you can see the dot in the daytime.
And yes dot placement on the target at different distances and heights in relation to how the laser was sighted can be tricky.
In otherwards the pellets not going to hit where the laser dot is placed on the target.
GF1,
So a head “aim” will get you a chest shot? I think I got it. Sounds good for a bigger target. I think that I will look into other options. If sighted at a fixed distance,… (something) to reference hold over and hold under would be a good thing,… even if it is not mil-dot exact.
Chris
Chris
A red or green dot sight would be easier to use than a laser.
A dot sight is used pretty well like a scope. You put on target or hold off when needed.
A laser is the same. But your seeing the laser dot shining above or to the left or right of the target or below it. It’s different when you are looking out at your target and where the laser dot is shining compared to looking through a scope or dot sight.
I can’t explain it correctly. You have to try both to see what I mean.
Mike
That’s the email I was talking about today I got this morning. It’s the one that directed you to the PA site.
At first it said the 11% off and free shipping. Then all of a sudden it was gone.
Maybe someone at PA jumped the gun and wasn’t suppose to release it yet this morning. ???
GF1,
You could be right, but we will have to wait till tomorrow to find out for sure.
I am kinda interested in seeing just what the prize package will be for the Backyard Brawl contest, the rules said $3,000.00 worth of stuff to be picked by Pyramyd AIR.
Mike
Mike
We’ll see about the sale.
And maybe someone on the blog will win the contest this time and tell about it.
GF1,
Just got the email, 15% off or 20% off select brands, Black Friday Sale starts now.
Mike
edit to add only the receiver of the email gets the 15% off so don’t revel the secret code. shhhh….. the 15% ends tonight at midnight.
Mike
Right. The thing to do is hold off on ordering. There will probably be better sales by tomorrow.
But the thing is what you want might be out of stock by then with all the people ordering.
Backorders are a bummer too.
GF1,
Not ordering a thing, money is low, just giving you a heads up but I am sure you got the email as well.
Perhaps I can swing the China compressor, wish Pyramyd AIR would get it in their line up they might even be able to sell it cheaper than your 300 or my 221.90. That would be sweet and I am sure they would fly off the shelf.
You mentioned before about a belt feed semi auto if I had a few bucks lying about I might consider one of these, kinda cool; /air-guns/rifles
Any way just holding my money and giving a look at compressors, the hand pump is not bad, but if you pump up the gun 4 times in a day it makes you think, I need a better way.
Mike
Mike
Yep I have thought about getting one of the MCX and converting it to HPA with the 13 cubic inch Air Venturi regulated HPA bottle.
And I’m thinking PA will not carry the China compressor. Right now it looks like they don’t carry the Shoebox compressor anymore even. That’s all probably got something to do with Air Venturi owning PA and wanting to sell their compressors.
And also that’s another thing. If I remember right on the Shoebox site they are selling the Freedom 10 HPA compressors for $499.00.
And also the guy that I got my China compressor from in California has I believe 10 available right now for $165 + $34 shipping. So they actually have came down in price since I got mine. Heck I may just get another for just in case purposes.
GF1
15 and FREE got to me! Ordered this and the silver X5. (5 hour window). Tried to get a 4,500 compressor but it wasn’t in the works.
Bob
Cool and check out me and Mike’s conversation about compressors. Maybe you can still get one.
GF1
Looks like they just added a high compression pump to the top of a regular HF China garage compressor. Very ingenious. Just remove the head and install it.
I have two of those low pressure compressors and they are poorly constructed.
Gold colored pot metal elbows instead of brass and sharp edges in the plastic auto shut off valve cut a rubber seal inside … but it looks like he removed all that stuff for HP air. Will look into it thanks. Watch that air oil separator.
Bob
Let me know if you do get a compressor and what kind. I do think you will like it better than hand pumping.
GF1
Looks like Air Venturi is using the same China made compressor with all the bells and whistles in a convenient package.
I will not be filling large storage bottles, only have one, so I do not need a water cooled compressor. A fan will do for filling one airgun now and then. I have plenty of inverters for DC power but I like having one built in. Cost is not much of an issue for me so I plan on getting a AV Nomad II when they are available.
Bob
Yep I don’t even have any bigger bottles. I just got the small 13 and 20 cubic inch bottles. I just fill the guns. Hopefully that helps mine last for a while.
And I wonder what compressor type the Nomad uses.
As a replica and for training, is the P320 M17 misleading like the cheaper P320 in that it is not necessary to rack the slide after inserting a magazine?
Gordonsbuck,
I do not understand what you are trying to say. As a single action only pistol the P320 M17 must be racked to both cock the striker as well as to load a round into the chamber.
The DAO M17 can be carried with a round in the chamber, but the double action trigger must be pulled to fire the gun. If it was single action, the activity of loading a round in the chamber would also cock the striker. So the trigger could fire the gun also, but it would be much lighter and crisper to pull.
Either gun, with a round in the chamber, can be fired without being racked.
B.B.
Put a fresh magazine into a completely empty Sig P320 M17 pellet gun that does not have the slide pulled back. Do not rack the slide. Pull the trigger. Does the gun fire? The $80 version of the Sig P320 would fire. I don’t have one but feel sure that the real M17 would not fire.
Gordonsbuck,
I don’t have a Sig P320 M17 pellet pistol. I’m not sure one even exists. This pellet pistol is the real M17.
My P320 M17 is a firearm.
B.B.
Sorry, I was talking about the Sig Sauer P320 M17 pellet pistol.
B.B.
You made the following statement: “The pellet pistol is DAO as well, so when you fire the gun the blowback action of the slide advances the magazine to the next pellet but the trigger is still double action.”
I believe the part about the slide advancing the magazine to the next pellet is incorrect. Before I began shooting my M17 pellet pistol, I did a simple test to confirm the magazine belt’s direction of rotation. Leaving the CO2 chamber empty so that the pistol would not fire, I loaded one pellet into the belt and positioned that pellet at the top of the magazine. After inserting the magazine into the M17, I pulled the trigger once. As I pulled the trigger, I could hear the magazine advancing during the first stage of the trigger pull. After I removed the magazine, I could see that the pellet had advanced one position due exclusively to the trigger action.
With the magazine removed, look into the grip from the bottom and pull the trigger. You will see two levers move backward into the magazine well in concert with the movement of the trigger. Now while looking into the grip from the bottom, move the slide without pulling the trigger. You will see when the slide moves those levers do not move. Those levers insert into two windows in the front side of the pellet clip to advance the magazine belt, and those levers move only when the trigger is pulled.
Charles,
Thank you for the clarification.
B.B.
I have the older, cheaper version of the “Sig Sauer P320 M17 CO2 pellet pistol” which Pyramyd AIR lists and describes as “SIG Sauer P320 CO2 Pistol, Metal Slide, Coyote Tan” and currently sells for $80. With my gun completely empty, I can insert a fresh magazine and immediately fire it without cycling the slide. Is it necessary to first cycle the slide of your “Sig Sauer P320 M17 CO2 pellet pistol” or will it fire without cycling the slide like my older version does?
Gordonsbuck,
Because the new Sig Sauer M17 P320 ASP, CO2 Pellet Pistol, Tan, catalog number PY-4695-9302, is double action only, it does fire without cycling the slide first. Just put the magazine in, pull the trigger, and it fires.
Now I’m not a gunsmith, and I don’t own any firearms. So if you were to disassemble a gun that is striker fired, I wouldn’t recognize the part that is the striker. Where I’m going with this is that because the Sig Sauer M17 pellet pistol does not have an external hammer, it may lead people to believe that it is striker fired. For all I know it may indeed be striker fired. However, I have removed the slide from the Sig Sauer M17 pellet and observed the action in action (no CO2 or pellets loaded of course). The Sig Sauer M17 pellet pistol has what appears to me to be an “internal” hammer. The slide does nothing but blowback to simulate recoil. The trigger is doing everything else. The trigger advances the pellet belt, cocks the “internal” hammer, and then releases the hammer to fire the shot. It’s the cocking and release of the “internal” hammer that makes the M17 pellet pistol trigger double action only. That is also why the M17 pellet pistol will fire without first cycling the slide.
Thank you. Although I do not own the firearm version of the M17, I feel certain that the slide must be cycled manually before the first round can be fired. That being the case, the pellet/CO2 version is less of a replica and not as useful for training purposes. On the other hand, I understand that these differences probably do not matter to most people.
B.B.
Thank you for your thorough reviews! I am Sig P226 (US version) owner looking for a trainer. I like the idea of the M17 magazine – CO2 and pellets together. I like the 19-round belt in the X-Five. However, I want to be a better P226 shooter. Are the controls the same between these three models? Are their holster sizes different? Which do you recommend for training?
Thanks!
St. George,
Welcome to the blog.
As long as you are only talking about the Sig-branded versions of these air pistols, yes they are the same as their firearm counterparts. I can’t say the same for other brands that may also claim the Sig name.
B.B.
You should consider the KWA airsoft pistol M226 for training. /product/kwa-m226-le-ns2-airsoft-gas-pistol?m=2503
B.B.
I have a suggestion that may help to answer Gordonsbuck’s questions (see above) about the M17 pellet pistol. In one of your next installments, perhaps you could show the disassembled M17 pellet pistol with a focus on the back of the action in the gun frame.
I would also like you to answer this question, that part that appears to me to be an “internal hammer”, is it a hammer or is it called a striker?
Charles,
I will see what I can do.
B.B.
B.B.
Sorry so late on the comment. I really didn’t think you’d write one on Thanksgiving (bonus). I didn’t see a quick link on the pistol to PA’s site (Sig Sauer P320 M17 CO2 pellet pistol). No biggie, I just usually click on them to “check” out the hardware.
Looking so forward to the rest of this report!
Doc
Doc,
Every link in this story goes to the Sig P320 M17. Click on any photo.
B.B.
BB, Sorry, its working for me now. Too much turkey I guess
Doc