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Education / Training Rifle stocks: Part Two

Rifle stocks: Part Two

LG55 Tyrolean
This Tyrolean stock was made to be the perfect interface between the shooter and the rifle. When it fits well, it really is!

Part 1

This report covers:

  • A lot has happened
  • From Not the way it has to be
  • Along came the fool
  • Weihrauch HW 30SW
  • Summary

I started Part 1 of this report in this way, “After yesterday’s report I had to address today’s subject — rifle stocks. The stock provides the way the shooter holds the rifle, yet some makers treat it as unimportant window dressing. I won’t ask why that is. I will only talk about the importance of the stock in hopes that those who do see this report consider what is being said.”

A lot has happened

That report was written in April of this year, but I never imagined it would balloon into such a huge topic of its own. At the end of Part One I left myself a list of topics I would try to address in Part 2:

length of pull
verticality of the pistol grip
ambidextrous stocks
width of the forearm
Wundhammer palm swell

I wanted to address some of those topics today, but allow me to refresh your short-term memories on what has popped up on our radars in the interim. I suppose it began when I wrote the report  titled, Not the way it has to be. I thought I was writing about today’s airgun marketplace, and in a sense I was, but lookie what popped up.

From Not the way it has to be

“This is a biggie. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SEE BOTH SIGHTS WHEN YOU HOLD THE RIFLE THE WAY IT SHOULD BE HELD! And what do you suppose that leads us to? That’s right, our last topic.”

I personally prefer wood for a stock. But that video of Kirsten Joy Weiss hitting an egg at 300 yards with an offhand shot was real. The video of Matthew Quigley hitting the bucket at whatever distance you prefer to imagine was Hollywood. There ain’t no Matthew Quigley but there is a Kirsten Joy Weiss, and her rifle had a very adjustable synthetic stock. Tom Selleck, who played Quigley, is an actor. Kirsten Joy Weiss is a shooter. Both are very good at what they do but she is the one who can shoot. And she used A PLASTIC STOCK. What does that say?

There is nothing wrong with synthetics when they are used in stocks. As long as they are up to the task, synthetics are fine. But when manufacturers take license to make stocks they think their customers want because they look a certain way, then there is a problem. When the stock is designed to look cool without any shooter ever holding a mocked-up version of the stocked rifle, you have a problem.

I’m not going to step on my own toes by mentioning everything that’s yet to go into the rifle stock series, but there are some basics that must be observed if you want to succeed.

Length of pull for sporting stocks should be between 13.5 and 14.5 inches for most adults. If the rifle is for kids consider strongly making this length adjustable between about 10 and 13 inches. For target rifle stocks that will be held offhand consider 11.5 to 12.5 inches as the optimum adult range.

The cheekpiece, if there is one, needs to be high enough to see the open sights, if they are there. Don’t make it so high that the open sights can’t be seen comfortably. [Boy, if credit was given for prophecy, I should get some for that statement!]

Along came the fool

In the report titled, The fool with 100 airguns I confessed that my airgun collection is an embarrassment of riches. I gotta lotta airguns. I just don’t have one that I know and trust for my dirty work of pest elimination!

I asked you readers for your suggestions on what my ideal pest rifle should be. And true to form you all went your own ways. Some thought I should use a PCP. Others thought in terms of money, as in — how should BB do this without spending any money, or at least not a lot of it? Others recommended airguns that were their personal favorites — which was what I asked you to do.

In the end I went my own way and selected the vintage Diana model 35 as my go-to pest rifle. But before finalizing the decision I shot it in the report titled, That one airgun. Good thing I did because I discovered that The 35’s trigger is too heavy and I can’t see the front sight well enough to hit my target offhand. Well, that won’t do! What to do, what to do?

Weihrauch HW 30SW

What about my little HW 30S? That one is accurate, has a killer Rekord trigger and accepts interchangeable front sight inserts. Then a reader told me to shoulder the rifle and look through the sights. I did and it wasn’t good. I couldn’t see both sights unless I held the rifle weird. I did that to test it but I want my pest rifle to be a natural shooter. So I wrote the report titled, Should I? And then listened to a lot of you tell me what to do.

In the end I did two things. I contacted Steve Corcoran to have a custom stock made for the rifle and just yesterday I bought a take-off factory HW 30 stock of the old style. That’s one I can carve up, if I need to. And all of this came from my need for a simple air rifle I can shoot using the open sights it came with.

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Today’s report hasn’t been an open letter to airgun manufacturers, but if any of them read it and DON’T get the point, they ought to go out of business!  The point is — there are very few airguns today that are made for shooters. Most of them must be modified in one way or another or scoped and it seems like the industry is building them with that in mind. Stop it!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

110 thoughts on “Rifle stocks: Part Two”

  1. B.B.

    Have wood rasp will travel…..

    FWIW-The Microplan graters work well too. Sandpaper is your friend, 60, 120, 180, 220, the rest is up to you.
    ARH London stock oil works great and is easy to use. Take your time.

    PS If you choose a HW 50, I have an old style OEM HW 50 I would be willing to donate.
    PPS if you need to add material Bondo works well, need to paint the stock though.

  2. B.B.,
    This report has given me much food for thought.
    I’ve been giving a lot of thought to getting a steel breech for my Crosman 362.
    I thought about which breech would be best to use with an open rear sight.
    I thought about which breech would be best to use with an aperture rear sight.
    I thought about which breech would be best to use with a scope.
    In the end, I decided (yet again) to leave the gun stock for now, and shoot it a lot more.
    My reasoning?
    Although it is synthetic, the stock is well-proportioned, and the rifle balances quite well.
    The stock is nice and slim, but not too slim, and affords a good grip.
    When I snap the gun to my shoulder, the sights line up as they should.
    While the front sight was thinned by me (for personal preference), the rear aperture is fine “as is.”
    The rifle is light enough to be great for shooting offhand.
    Besides intrinsic accuracy, this gun has the ergonomics to allow for good practical accuracy.
    It’s easy to pump, and fun to shoot.
    Kudos to Crosman (other manufacturers should take note!). 🙂
    Blessings to you,

  3. To be fair, most people mount scopes on their airguns. So I can see why airgun stocks are optimized for scope use. Then again, for some rifles, could it be a case of Lost In Translation? “The Americans use a cheek weld, give the ones we ship there, a different stock”. So someone who uses a chin weld tries a cheek weld, not doing quite like an American does. Thus those just a little off for most people stocks.

  4. Then there is another problem. Let’s say manufacturers start making stocks that allow *most* people to use the open iron sights well as B.B. wants. Then of course, the shooter changes his mind and wants to add a scope. Now we have to add a base with droop compensation and scope rings at least tall enough to accommodate the 50mm objective bell of my monster scope I bought. Now, when we snap that gun to our shoulder, all we see is blackness.

    If all guns were made with the HW98 style adjustable cheek piece and recoil pad, life would be good, but our wallets would be a lot thinner! Boo hoo!

    What is a manufacturer to do? They are is quite a pickle. Not only do they have to design a stock to fit the most common facial structures, but they need to accommodate those of us who add scopes and then take them off again! Compare the sticks on the Benjamin 392S/397S (made for scopes) and the Crosman 362 (made for the open sights it comes with).

  5. Tom,

    Now comes another consideration. What position do you think you will be using the rifle when you take a shot? Will you be prone, sitting down or upright? None of those positions will be satisfied by a non adjustable stock. In my case I’m determined to shoot offhand (with iron sights) most of the time so I have accepted that my length of pull will be short when I have to take a shot while sitting or prone.


    • Siraniko, your comment bring up a question in my mind. Do competitive 3 position airgun shooters adjust their stocks when they change positions? When hunting, there is not always time to fiddle around with equipment. Heck there may not even be time to adjust scope settings or you risk losing the shot. But in competition, I imagine there is time between shooting prone, sitting (kneeling?), and standing to make adjustments for best accuracy. But I wonder….

      • RG,

        The reason for 3P competition is to introduce variables to shooters that will take a certain amount of adaptability to overcome. I am not certain, but adjusting a stock during competition is probably not allowed and getting it right for each position will likely be too time consuming. Compromise and adaptability are the keys and reasons for 3P shooting. Precision shooting requires strength, endurance, skill and lots of money.

  6. BB,

    LOL! Quite the conundrum you have put forth!

    A note to the manufacturers. If you put open sights on your air rifle, make them usable. Your stock should be shaped for such. Yes, it is impossible to fit everybody, but synthetic stocks make this so much easier. Adjustable butt pads, length inserts and adjustable cheek rests can make it quite possible for a customer to “adjust” the stock to “fit”. An adjustable stock like KJW uses is more expensive, but knowledgeable shooters will spend for such.

    I used to own an AirForce Edge. The stock on such is simple, yet adjustable six ways from Sunday. It was meant for child size shooters, but was easy for this over six foot dude to adjust to fit. Many of today’s stocks have adjustable cheek risers and adjustable buttpads. It is not that hard or that expensive to do. All it takes is a little experience and thought.

    A note to BB. I have no experience with a Diana 35. I am going to assume (there is that ugly word) that something can be done with the trigger. There is an HW30S front sight on the way to you. In combination with a rear peep and a little trigger work, this should make that Diana 35 of yours quite the deadly backyard shooter you desire.

    • BB

      RR has sent you an interchangeable front sight for your Diana 35 which was your original choice for handy pesting. You may want to sway your thinking back to it. My Diana 35 in .177 with Hobby 7.0 gr has twice the energy (8.7 fpe) as my HW30S in .177 with JSB Express 7.87 gr (4.4 fpe). Yeah, you have two stocks coming for the Weihrauch but one is for your new wood working endeavor and the other is an heirloom addition to a great little air rifle. Nothing gets wasted.

      Just saying.


      • Deck,

        Those R7/HW30 front sights are nice. Although I put the Truglo front sight and Williams peep on the HW30S here at RRHFWA, there is a set of standard sights sitting here ready to go back on if needed/desired. 😉

        • RR

          Your HW30S seems set up for quick pesting, hint hint BB. I don’t remember if yours is .177 or .22. You must have the older no longer offered Williams peep, or an older or modified Weihrauch stock. The current Williams peep bottoms out against my HW30S stock. Not wanting to cut a notch in stock I switched to a plastic peep made for Beeman AR2078A. It works fine but I would prefer a Williams that fit.


  7. BB,I have a question ? Why don’t you just use the Dragon Fly in .22 for your pesting go to rifle and it has a nice wood stock that works ? Take Care ,Robert

    • Robert,

      I considered that but it’s a matter of timing. I may not have the time I need to pump the rifle and if a second shot is needed I wont have it, either.


      • BB,I have the Dragon Fly one ,and leave it pumped up and unloaded as it doesn’t need to be cocked to pump. It has the magazine for follow up . BTW, that Dragon Fly 1 has a better stock as to handling ,for me., Robert

      • Ah, we circle back to the original question: what airgun does B.B. (individually to him, not some theoretical person) *need* for his pesting problem? Considering all the suggestions (most were valid and excellent) that B.B. has rejected so far, we can probably narrow the answer down. But then B.B. may end up with a gun that in actual practice or useage may not be what he wants or needs. So there is a lot of theorizing but in practical usage, another solution may be needed. I’m interested to find out how the story goes and ends and to learn along the way.

          • LOL! It will depend on what you consider average. The “average” airgunner does not have the antique airguns laying about. BB will likely settle on a sproinger with lower power levels than most modern sproingers on the USA market. His Diana 35 will likely fit the bill quite nicely once he fiddles with the trigger and put a different front sight on it. An HW50 is probably the only “modern” sproinger that will fit the bill.

  8. Tom,

    On ideal air rifle all of the buttstocks would have a greatly adjustable length-of-pull and a greatly adjustable cheek riser, like dedicated 10 meter air rifles have. They would be genuinely ambidextrous. The triggers would be crisp and also easily adjustable. All air rifles should have manual safeties and come with sights. They should have integral Weaver rails. The cocking geometry should make for as easy a cocking effort as is possible for the power level. They should be as lightweight as possible but also come with weights that can make them balanced for the shooter and heavier overall if he or she so desires.

    Finally, they should be available both with wood stocks and high quality polymer stocks.


  9. In the group young teenagers that I learned to shoot with accuracy was the most important thing followed closely by speed. Our quarry (insects, pest birds and small game) rarely sits still for long so you had to aim and shoot fast to get a shot. I still shoot fast – usually breaking the shot within a second of making the cheek weld.

    For that kinda shooting the rifle must fit well to come up for proper sight picture. Add to that that we were out growing our rifles and regularly had to modify the stocks to suit. Wood stocks ruled.

    The thin, hollow plastic stocks on bb-guns aren’t adjustable. The synthetic polymer stocks (like on my HW50S) could be modified but I’d hesitate to attempt it.

    I like and strongly prefer wood stocks because they are easy to modify and there’s something about a wood and blued steel rifle that feels right to me.

    Ultimately, if form follows function and it functions well, I’ve become more tolerant of the modern Mattel-o-mattic stocks… I can’t see the stock while looking through the scope 😉


  10. *** OFF TOPIC ***

    I just finished making a Gun Cart and thought I would share it with you.

    I’m fortunate to have a backyard shooting range and can be plinking at a moment’s notice – grab an airgun, a can of pellets and step outside.

    When tuning or testing I have to make several trips from basement to bench to get setup for the session so I decided to make a cart to be able to move everything in one go.

    The cart is based on a 3-wheel jogging stroller. I stripped it to the chassis and added a wood tray, a cylinder for the air tank and a couple of Kolpin gun grips.

    I mounted the cylinder (a piece of 8 inch PVC pipe) directly over the rear axel to keep the weight of the HPA tank at the center of balance and used a strip of packing foam around the tank to secure it.

    The wood tray is attached to the frame to provide rigidity. I’ve added a cradle for the LabRadar and a magnetic mount to secure the shooting rest. A couple of plastic utility boxes hold cleaning equipment, tools, targets, pellets and whatever other miscellaneous odds and sods that I need at the bench.

    I’m pleased with the end result. Balance is good and the loaded cart is easy to maneuver through doorways and out onto the shooting range. Except for the Koplin gun grips and the stroller I got at a garage sale ($20) everything was made from stuff I scrounged.

    A fun project!


    • Hank, Nice set-up!
      I have a stripped down three wheeled ‘dual baby’ stroller. I transport a 50gal plastic trash can on it.
      Great for rolling over uneven ground, up and down hills with a hand brake and wheel locks. Small trash can wheels are useless in the dirt. ‘More much gooder’ than a 4-wheel cart. Easier to push than pull. Save them for pulling behind the driving lawn mower.

      Now all you need is to do is mount an anti-aircraft sight on the cart, install a lever to pull the triggers and tip it up to aim and fire! ( full-autos may be more effective ) 🙂

    • Hank I love that. My youngest is 10 now, so I have a couple of those in storage. I wonder if I could make one so I could remove the mods when and if I become a “Pappou” (grandfather).

      • Roamin,

        I had to cut padding and drill out rivets to remove the things that were not needed and in the way so mods on my cart are permanent. Yours may be different.

        My granddaughter calls me “Poppa”. She’s having a birthday soon… 16 going on to 29 😉


    • Doc,

      Same question here. Do R7, deluxe 30S stock, and the synthetic stocked 30S have the same issue?

      From the photos, HW50 seems to be high as well. Among the quality breakbarrel springers, I think there is only HW35E left.


      • Fish,
        you may be right. Hopefully someone that has them will let us know! I’d hate to buy one and be let down. I don’t mind buying something then doing stuff to customize it, but I’m not one that likes to buy something to have to work on it to make it right. Used is one thing, but new, no. Should be right out of the box. Just me.


        • We cannot change the winds; we can only adjust our sails. I gave up on hoping to be heard by the airgun manufacturers long time ago. I sometimes tell what I think is the best, but I know I won’t be heard at all.

          Seems like, among all the quality springers in the market today, there are only HW35E and Diana 48 that still offer standard comb height. 35E has some cheekpiece, but the design appears to be very reasonable. I’ve actually seen plenty of add on comb risers for 35E online, which tells me that the stock might’ve been drown with the open sights in mind – just my opinion.


          And there is the 362, so I still have hope. As soon as the 367 is out, I’m buying one. Sad thing is I have doubts about 30S just because of the same concern you’ve stated – at least, until I hold one.

    • One reader, HiHiHi reported on this. Look here and scroll down to his comments with pictures of the HW30S and HW50S sight pictures.

      • RG, yes, I remember.


        So, according to hihihi’s experience, HW50S’s comb height works well with the open sights.

        BB, what’s your experience, aiming with your HW50S? Perhaps, HW50S might be the one after all.

        Where’s hihihi been by the way? 🙂


        • Fiush,

          “The HW 50S is a delightful little breakbarrel rifle with just a bit too much power to suit me. The trigger is superb and I like the accuracy, but I need to find a way to shave about 10 pounds off the 37 lb. cocking effort, to make it a spring gun that’s also fun to shoot.”

          It’s too large and heavy for what I want.


          • BB,

            I see. Too large, heavy, and powerful for what you want. Makes sense. Then 35E is not the one either…

            Okay, HW50S will not be the one. Still, I wonder if you have the same issue with 50S, aiming with its open sights – might answer Doc Holiday’s question? Although, if that’s a concern, I’d suggest not to buy online until holding one in person.


        • Fish, HiHiHi said he’s taking a break from the blog because the website offers him a pop up of a spinning wheel every time he gets on the blog site. Every…time. My conclusion after offering him some suggestions based on my (limited) knowledge is that his browser settings are so locked down that the website thinks he is a new visitor every time he visits, so he gets the spinning wheel every time. Since he is unwilling to change his settings for this site, he’s stuck with the ‘wheel of fortune.’ However, if you reply to one of his old comments, he might get an email and then respond.

  11. BB,
    It’s ever a learning experience to hang out with BB and crew and talk about air guns. Thank you for your very enjoyable blog, BB, reading it and the Readership contributions has taken me from being a casual plinker to being a real airgunner. Stop chortling Yoda.

    I have a suggestion. Don’t give up on your Diana 35 with the tapered front sight as a go-to pester. A few years ago, I made a front sight mod to solve the problem of not being able to see the tip of the non-interchangeable tapered front post well enough on my Diana 24.
    I cut a length of copper household wire, hammered it flat, clipped off a suitable length, filed it to shape and glued it to the front face of my existing tapered post, with medium body cyanoacrylate. A touch with the file while in place trued the shape and made the top edge wide enough for me to see well for a 6:00 hold. No it isn’t a masterpiece, but it is very serviceable and easy to do. Ok, so the trigger is harder to pull than you like it, but this idea can solve one of two problems.

  12. B.B. and Readership,

    Want to be legal at Three Position? Or at least know something about it: https://airgunwire.com/2022-2024-three-position-air-rifle-rules-released/

    Also Roamin Greco asked if changes can be made.
    “…athletes may make sight, stock or accessory adjustments or changes on
    their rifle…. There are timed preparation periods during transitions and sighters are shot.
    For those that want them they (2022-2024 Rules) are available for downloading on the Link above.


  13. BB,

    I’ve done some research and come to the conclusion that the majority of the airgun manufacturers are not large enough companies to blame the management. You were right; it’s people who make the difference in airguns. Today’s subject is also another good example, I think.


  14. I am not against raised combs, but if you design such a stock, at least, don’t bother to add open sights on the barrel. If a rifle has open sights, it should have standard stock, no raised comb.

  15. https://img.coverstand.com/65619/748599/article_assets/43-1729702942-628c8aa783ad8.jpg

    Well, I’ll stop complaining here. What works for me might not work for another. So I hope to see many different stocks out there. Like shutguns, just pick the one that fits you.

    This guy, for example, needs a Monte Carlo stock:
    Gunfitting seems like a more important issue with clay shooting. After all, it is said you aim a rifle, you point a shotgun.

    The point is, I want to be able to see the open sights when I hold the air rifle – that’s it. There is so much to learn in this hobby. I wish I were aware of these earlier. I was just lucky that Diana 27 was a perfect fit for me, and I had the privilege to grew up with one. I know that 367 will be a good fit too. About the Weihrauch springers though, I think I’ll need a vacation in Arizona. 🙂

    • Fish,

      So if what you quote is true for everyone: “After all, it is said you aim a rifle, you point a shotgun.”
      Why does my Mossberg 590A1 have Tritium front sight and a Ghost Ring rear sight? I have used it for aiming (even in darkness) and not just for looks. Lol!

      Watch out in the Slot Canyons!


      • Shootski,

        Let me tell you why, because it was not designed for ‘clay shooting’ or such patterning. I bet it doesn’t even have mobile chokes. 590A1 has several models, but from what you commented, I’m guessing yours is fixed cylinder bore. 🙂

        The only shotguns, that I know of, that have such front and rear sights are for turkey hunting and wild boar, deer and other big game hunting. There are smooth barrel slug shooters with fiberoptic sights and even cantilevers. Also, there are tactical ones with such sights, which yours could be listed in that defense category. But you can hunt deer or wild boars with yours if you wish. There are shotguns even in bullpup, ar12, ak12 and the long list goes on and on, they come with all bunch of chokes so can shoot any rounds. All kinds of aiming aids on them. There is even a triple barrel that is sold here in the US now, that has front and rear opensights and a cantilever – you can remove the butt if you wish. There is everything…
        – Up there, I am not suggesting the rifled sabot shooters, because I think they shouldn’t be considered as shotguns. They are pretty much rifles. I am talking about the smooth barrel slug shooters that can shoot rifled slugs, buckshots and such. Smoothbore, fixed cylinder bore – no mobile chokes, and can have red dots or scopes mounted on them in addition to the open sights. With a quality smoothbore cylinder choked shotgun that has quality fiberoptics, you can shoot very accurately up to 150 yrds or even more, using quality rifled slugs. I like fiberoptics on shotguns by the way. I’ve seen slug shooting overandunders that come with front and rear fiberoptic sights and cantilevers for scope or red dot mounting.

        I don’t know much about special turkey hunting shotguns, but with turkey chokes and shotshells, I am guessing front / rear sights, red dots, and even scopes make a lot of sense.

        In the comment, I said “Gunfitting seems like a more important issue with clay shooting. After all, it is said you aim a rifle, you point a shotgun.” — Here, I’d like to underline the words, ‘clay shooting.’ Or bird hunting… In those cases, you point and shoot; you don’t aim. And that’s where the gunfitting becomes so important. Some models have adjustable combs – usually trap shooters – and shims to adjust the butt – both or one of those features. No adjustable rear sights or cantilevers on them.

        With a well patterning side by side, if you get the gunfitting well, thanks to the chokes and different shots, you can hunt anything, from ‘clays,’ to rabbits to ducks to geese to turkeys to deers to wild hogs or to whatever. I know a guy that hunts wild boars with a 20ga SxS. A shotgun is all you need.


        • Fish,

          Totally! Cylinder Bore and a very heavy (thick walled) barrel. Shoots far better than most smooth bore with some slugs and the “0” family of lead ball if the Hulls are correctly loaded with Wad, Ball, filler, and a Mylar wrap.
          I have shot Skeet, & Trap for the experience it provides but not enough to write home about.


          • 590A1 is the best pump action. You said thick wall barrel; it must be the $1000+ version. Worth every penny.

            I shouldn’t write about skeet and trap either. I want to get back into clay shooting, but this time with a 12ga gas operated semiauto. Unless you spend a fortune, a fine patterning double barrel is hard to come by. With a semiauto, you deal with one barrel only. If it comes with shims and an adjustable comb, I can easily pattern it as 50:50 or 60:40.

            I can only afford seldom casual clay shooting though. Some folks easily get carried away. I don’t understand how they are not kicked out of the house after dumping that much $$s on clay shooting. 🙂

          • shootski,

            There is also adjustable ribs on some trap guns…

            Well, all learned by reading and hearsay – avid hunter older cousins whom I had looked up to. I’ve only shot a couple of double barrels and a single barrel. To be honest, to answer your question, I had to talk about stuff that I don’t know much about. More than likely, some info in my comments up there are not that accurate.

  16. My turn again.
    So, it just goes to show. Before you ‘Buy’ an airgun the first question is, “What do I want to use it for?”
    This is a good example of what may happen when you fail to answer that question and act accordingly. I know BB is well aware of that and this is just a professional challenge for a blog.

    What we got ‘heah’, is just the reverse. Give me a hundred airguns and hopefully I can find one that will work. 🙁
    I said it before, rifles have EVOLVED into the AR or Chassie System for a purpose, to improve things and make them infinitely adjustable or easily modified to perform many functions and capable of accepting accessories.
    Granted, making it look beautiful is not one of its easy modifications but then again, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. I draw the line at the toilet paper mount. But, that may change if I venture out into the desert. Now what did I do with the canteen mount?

    • Bob M,

      Just like we don’t fly Doped Cloth and Wooden Spar/Frame Biplanes much anymore…things change! Can’t find much mirror polished Aluminum anymore either.
      I personally think the days of wooden rifle stocks are going to go the same way…objects of curiosity and purchased in fits of nostalgia.


      • Perhaps, not Doped Cloth and Wooden Spar/Frame biplanes, but there are now anodized aluminum tubing that is fastened together with bolts, and wings and tail covered with pre-sewn Dacron envelopes, the ultralights…

        I believe there will always be wooden stocks. However, I agree that majority will be synthetic.

      • Shootski,
        Sooo? … that’s why I got the China made Model QB-25, Tech Force Contender Model 89, TF-78 Gold, Crosman Vantage, Evanix Speed, AR-6 and Carbine … and Pistol, 1077W, Under Lever and PCP K98 Mausers, M1 Carbines, Diana 350 Mag, Two Marauders, Dragonfly MkII, and TX200. I guess the good imitation wood stocked ones like the 1944 Mosin Nagant and Legends Cowboy don’t really count?
        I won’t mention the ones that only have some wood like the Walthers lever actions, and various Airsoft’s, like the M14, IDF Galil, AK-47, 1921 Tommy Gun, 1894 Lever Action and so on.

        “Objects of curiosity and purchased in fits of nostalgia”? I could have sworn it was for other reasons, but you could be right.
        I really like all the modern and assault type black rifles I have like the … Well, you get the idea. I could be here half the night. OK, just one the Armadas, I have two. Just in case.
        Enjoy the weekend. Ahaa, I have to mention my newest favorite, the Western Sidewinder…
        Ugly, Black and Beautiful!

        • Bob M,

          At least you didn’t go for the Western Swine…Lol!
          Nice power out of the Sidewinder even on the low power setting.
          How is the accuracy?


          • Shootski,
            So far, I have only fired it at a 4×4 fence post nearby without a scope mounted, just to see how it shoots.
            For all practical purposes there is no first stage trigger resistance. You simply position the trigger back to a firm stage two and the slightest movement with hardly any resistance past that and you hear what sounds like a balloon popping in front of you.
            Not too back yard friendly, but definitely not a sharp crack.
            The test target from AoA put 5 JSB Jumbo Monster Redesigned 25gr .22 pellets into a single hole at 20 yds that measures just under a half inch edge to edge.
            The trigger is set at the company, and they do not recommend any changes. Actually, there are no adjustments. Perfection right out of the box.
            FPS, 10 shots, Hi 902, Low 890 at an average power setting that they recommend you leave at the factory setting. A wicked compact black metalic work of art.

        • FawltyManuel,

          The only cloth covered airplanes (wings only) i have ever gotten to fly are Piper J3 and Super Cubs but they have Steel/Aluminum tube frames and spars.
          Flying a Fokker Dreidecker would be fun for sure; even a faithful reproduction!


          • Shootski,
            Many years ago, I remember seeing a poster that had a picture of a Dreidecker parked next to a Lear Jet on the tarmac. The caption (attributed to the owner of the planes) was: “Hell, anybody can fly a Gates Lear Jet!”
            I understand that landing the Fokker was a real handful, considering the ‘smallish’ tail feathers.

            • billj,

              Tricycle gear are always easier to land than a taildragger! You can porpoise down the runway with either; but the taildraggers are far more prone to do it if you touch down on the main mounts first instead of all three at the same time.
              Sometimes you can even do a “spectacular” nose-over if you hit the brakes.


              • shootski, Sopwith Camel had rotary engines where the cylinders themselves were also turning with the propeller. I believe the purpose of that craziness was for air cooling. So imagine the gyroscopic effect of the rotating mass of the cylinders in addition to the taildragger design – must be a delight to land!? 🙂

                • Fish,

                  Many of the early Radial (also called rotary engines by some) engine powered airplanes had the bank(s) of cylinders rotating with the propeller. Beside air cooling flow it eliminated the need for a flywheel in the design.
                  I flew (fixed) Wright R-1820 and R-3350 with variable pitch props with either Superchargers or Turbo Compounded in a number of different aircraft. The P Force on the single engine aircraft could flip you off the runway if you messed up and didn’t mind the max MAP or put in enough RIGHT rudder on the takeoff roll . In one aircraft, a taildragger, if you went above a certain Manifold Air Pressure during run-up on the ground it would compress the main struts enough that the prop blade tips would throw chunks of concrete ramp around.
                  What a blast to fly those old girls!


                • There was a very small racing aircraft called the Gee Bee R that had a powerful engine, a short fat fuselage, small wings and control surface area and if it went too slow there was not enough air going over the flight controls to stabilize the aircraft and it would rotate around the engine.
                  Probably broke the pilots neck before it crashed.
                  That was hard to fly and dangerous. But it won races if you were good enough to fly it.

                  • Bob M,

                    My Mother collected spoons and one of them had a Gee Bee Model Z relief in the spoon’s bowl. It must have been intended for ice cream social after the World Record setting flight…that never happened. I believe they did set a record in the R model.
                    I used to look at that spoon all the time when I was a kid and imagine being at the controls of a racer.

                    I have felt the Need for Speed (rotating) from my earliest days…CAT SHOT


  17. Just noticed there is a new animal of an airgun, the Bush Pig in 45 cal.
    Now I could see the Rattler and the Sidewinder from Western Airguns, both are deadly serious, but a Bush Pig? Not sure I would admit to owning a rifle called a Bush Pig. A Wild Boar 45 Carbine sounds a bit more intimidating. Just my opinion. 😉

  18. B.B.,

    I have been thinking on and off over this Memorial Day weekend about this sentence in your Summary: “The point is — there are very few airguns today that are made for shooters. Most of them must be modified in one way or another or scoped and it seems like the industry is building them with that in mind. Stop it!” Only if those manufacturers aren’t building these: “…but there is a Kirsten Joy Weiss, and her rifle had a very adjustable synthetic stock.”
    Unless you are extremely lucky (or adaptable,) get a custom WOODEN stock, or near custom WOODEN stock with some well thought-out adjustable appendages Life is Good won’t happen.
    Why? In this world of Mass Production catering to the cheap throwaway folks can you ask for something that will cost more and sell less from the Mass Production manufacturers?
    That build for the Shooters is just not going to happen until the cheapness is beaten out of “consumers” of the Trash on offer by most merchants.

    So when are you going to begin the beat downs?
    A good start in my opinion would be to set a reasonable minimum acceptable THREE (3) MOA Limit for any airgun to be acceptable tied to a range that that sets the maximum limit for that particular airgun.


    • Shootski
      Speaking of record setting aircraft, check out, “List of aircraft losses of the Vietnam War”, in Wikipedia.
      Well over 10,000 if you count UAV’s.
      My mothers second husband bragged about playing inside the record holding Lockheed 5C Vega, the Winnie Mae, when he was young. Of course, that was before fences were put around airports.
      Now I will never admit to playing inside the latest version of the Spirit of Saint Louis, but I had to keep an eye on it and check for leaks when I was alone with it overnight inside a DC-9 hangar on NAS North Island.

      Now to airguns. Wooden stocks could very well be a thing of the past someday. (Or, should that be, very well could be?)
      My Western Sidewinder only has a plastic like cheek rest and a rubber coated pistol grip and butt pad. You know how the saying goes, “Wood … We don need no stinking wood!” 🙂

      • Bob M,

        When you say latest was that Spirit II or Spirit III?
        It drives me almost to excessive drinking to see aircraft on Static Display, Mounted on Pedestals or hung from Air Museum ceilings that have multiple entries in my Logbooks! I guess that is better than the ones in Boneyards or scrap piles….


        • Shootski,
          I know what you mean. Kinda makes you feel like you’re a living antique.
          It was Spirit III, Spirit II went out in flames in the San Diego Air and Space Museum fire.

  19. Happy Sunday, y’all!
    I decided that the Mark2 that B.B. enabled me to buy would be nicer with a bit more scope power.
    After missing a chance at the last 6X BugBuster, I went for a Hawke 2-7X32 scope…I’ll just keep it on 7X. 😉
    After taking the two shots at the right, just to make sure the scope was working, I started on adjustments.
    The next shot landed a bit to the left, using 30 clicks.
    That gave me that data point I needed to “guess” the clicks for windage and elevation.
    God must have guided my hand, as the next 5 shots were on the money (at 15 yards).
    The stock fit is good for giving me the proper eye relief on the 7X setting.
    Overall, I think this is a good marriage of scope to rifle.
    Happy shooting to all,

    • thedavemister,

      That scope looks good on the Mark II!

      You certain your not a bit underpowered on magnification with that scope Dave!
      I’ll bet you will be on the low end of magnification before you know it.
      Especially for shooting Off Hand.


      • shootski, you could be right; but I figured I’d sight her in on the highest power; I’ll likely re-sight her in at 25 yards; then, if I need to shoot closer, I can dial down the magnification for an offhand shot. 😉

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