by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Lov 21 is a CO2 target pistol; made in the Czech Republic. It doesn’t look like much, but people speak well of it in Canada and Europe.
This report covers:
- Learned a lot!
- The CO2 cap
- Velocity — H&N Finale Match light
- JSB Exact RS
- Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
- Shot count
- Trigger
- Evaluation
Learned a lot!
We learned a lot from new European readers’ comments to Part 1 of this report — especially reader H3P04. I told you the Lov 21 is an air pistol that I am completely unfamiliar with, and from the little I do know so far, it seems like a winner. Today we start finding out.
The first thing we learned is this pistol isn’t even mainstream in its country of origin! They know about it, but it doesn’t stand out, according to the comments made by several Czech readers.
The CO2 cap
I was asked by H3P04 to show the bottom of the CO2 cap, so here it is.
As you can see, there are no threads on the end of the cap, so it is not a bulk-fill cap — just a CO2 cartridge cap. The hole in the knurled side allows a bar to be inserted for more leverage when piercing the cartridge.
How was I able to pierce the CO2 cartridge, when the pin inside the cap is flat? There is a hole on the side of the piercing cap that accepts a small bar. Stick an Allen wrench in the hole and you multiply the force with which you turn the cap to the extent that a flat pin can be driven into a steel CO2 cylinder.
The Allen wrench in the hole gives a lot more leverage for piercing the cartridge.
Velocity — H&N Finale Match light
The first pellet I tested was the H&N Finale Match light with a 4.50mm head. They averaged 436 f.p.s. for 10 shots. The low was 433 and the high was 440 f.p.s., so a 7 f.p.s. spread. That is extremely tight for CO2. It borders on the consistency of a regulated PCP! I waited no longer than 10 seconds between shots, and only that slow because the Lov 21 is a single shot pistol with a lot to do to get the next shot ready. It seems safe to say the Lov 21 is not affected by the cooling of CO2 gas, which is a bigplus in a target pistol.
JSB Exact RS
I knew readers would want to see something more than just target pellets, So I tested the JSB Exact RS dome. It’s an accurate pellet that I would try in this pistol anyway. They averaged 443 f.p.s. with a 12 f.p.s. spread that ran from 435 to 447 f.p.s. That’s still pretty tight. I will shoot them for accuracy, as well.
Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
The last pellet I tried was the Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet. Weighing 5.25-grains I know this pellet will give higher velocity than the lead pellets. That isn’t necessarily a desirable feature in a target airguns. As long as the pellets move fast enough to cut clean holes in target paper, no additional velocity is required.
These pellets averaged 493 f.p.s. The low was 476 and the high was 500 f.p.s., so the spread was 24 f.p.s. The first shot was the only one that was below 492 f.p.s., so there might have been some first-shot dynamic happening, though I didn’t see it with the other two pellets.
Shot count
As brisk as this pistol is, how many shots might you get on a CO2 cartridge? At this point in the test I had fired 36 shots, so I continued with H&N Finale Match (436 average) and got the following results.
Shot……….Velocity
40……………432
45……………432
50……………428
55……………427
60……………422
65……………417
70……………419
75……………423
80……………411
85……………400
90……………383
95……………353
Looking at this string I would have thought the gun was out of steam by shot 65, but look what happened. It picked back up again and did well until shot 80. Know what that tells me? It tells me I can shoot a men’s 10-meter match (60 shots) and still have several sighters at the start. A women’s match of 40 shots is assured. At least that’s possible with this cartridge. Not every cartridge will have that much gas, so you might want to be more conservative, but I think there will always safely be 60 shots in a cartridge.
Trigger
The Lov 21 has a single-stage trigger. I told you in Part 1 that I thought it broke so light I would need to test it for safety from accidental discharge. This time I cocked the gun then bumped it severely in several directions and it never fired. I don’t like a single stage trigger that’s also light, but this one passes the test.
The trigger broke at 1 lb. 4.5 oz. average. It ranged from 1 lb. 3 oz. to 1 lb. 8 oz. I feel some creep in the pull, but it’s not too bad. I can do good work with this trigger.
Evaluation
So far the Lov 21 is showing a lot of good engineering. The one bad thing is the maker selected o-rings of the wrong material. They absorb CO2 gas and swell to much larger than their relaxed size. That makes it practically impossible to remove the CO2 cap until the gun has been depressurized for several hours, giving the gas time to bleed out of the o-ring. American gas guns had the same problem back in the 1950s, but when they found a material that sealed but did not absorb gas, they made the change. That problem was over by the 1960s.
Perhaps the Lov 21 engineers are paying it safe with this material. It certainly won’t leak! But it also means you cannot install another CO2 cartridge until several hours have passed. Also you must shoot out all the gas, as there is no other way to depressurize the gun.
B.B. Pelletier,
This is certainly shaping up to be an interesting pistol. High shot count, good trigger and consistent power output, what is not to like? Although the accuracy test is yet to come the numbers posted does raise one’s hopes. How unfortunate that this is not even recognized even in its own country of origin. Looks like a promising design to resurrect for teaching/introducing newbies to air pistol shooting.
Siraniko
On the crosman Mk guns you could pull rearward on the cocking tabs which would press on the valve stem to degas the gun.
Since the gun has a vague lineage of the crosman, have you tried that?
I am active looking for one of these to go with my Crosman MK I&II guns, and my S&W 78/79’s
They being distant cousins…
45Bravo,
No, I haven’t. I wasn’t even aware of the Crosman Marks having that feature!
I have exhausted the first cartridge to remove it, so I’ll have to wait for the next one to try this. Thanks!
B.B.
45Bravo,,
I just tried it and it does work as you said. Some gas from the o-rings had leaked into the reservoir and came out when I pulled the ears back.
B.B.
Cool glad I could help.
That’s why we are here, to share information and experience.
It’s great on the Mk series when the velocity starts dropping, and you need to change a cartridge.
Bravo
That’s good info about the degassing.
I was thinking to myself that would sure be a bummer to have to wait 2 hours to shoot the gun again.
You got that right.
Like the umarex offering of the Chinese xs-60.
Great gun, but poor engineering of the co2 cap and oring choice. They swelled to twice their size.
And had to wait for them to shrink.
Bravo
I remember BB mentioning that on one of them guns he tested too.
Don’t like that engineering at all.
Yes, it was the Umarex Fusion. Great gun, extremely quiet, mine was accurate once I found the right pellet.
But the piercing cap was overly complex, and the oring swelling issue.
I bought replacement orings that cured the swelling problem.
And I eventually replaced the end cap with a bulk fill cap.
I eventually gave it to a friend who lives in an urban area so he could shoot in his back yard..
The silencing system was very good on that model.
Bravo
Did you bulk fill Co2 or HPA?
I had one of their guns they called the $100 pcp.
It basically was like you described on HPA.
I bulk filled with co2, it was fairly efficient on co2, I had read many mods to make it hpa, but didn’t want to mod it for that. I already had several pcp guns.
There was no need to go through the work to make a 600 fps .177 single shot hpa gun when I already had a discovery with a TKO in the closet.
I really like the vintage guns.
My modern pcp guns each fill a power niche.
Some are 5-7 ft lbs. for small pest control and plinking,
another is 12 fpe, for general purpose precision plinking and slightly larger pest,
Another is 19-20 fpe, and magazine fed
and another is 40 fpe for somewhat larger things, and longer range plinking..
I like plinking you can tell.
My 40 fpe .22 is the same gun as my 12 fpe gun, it’s a custom Airforce talon with a lot of R&L parts.
It’s 40 fpe on air, but 12 fpe on co2, and a shot count measured in the hundreds per co2 fill.
Bravo
Yep I had a few AirForce guns. None on Co2 though.
Now that’s something I haven’t tryed yet.
Maybe I will end up with another Talon SS and running on Co2.
I was trying to build a GUNPOWER STEALTH
Which is a UK version of a .22 talon SS with no power wheel, and limited to 12 ft lbs.
with a shotcount of over 500 shots per fill using HPA.
Airforce is all about raw power, they won’t even talk to you about what springs and valve combo to build a sub 12 ft lb. gun.
One day I was running low on air, so I dug out the co2 adapter, and an old 9 oz paintball tank, and fired it up.
With out any changes, i put it over the chrono, it was right at 12 ft lbs, much quieter (which with a R&L shroud it was very quiet anyway,) and I just had to hold over to a different mildot out to 50 yards.
It gave me the power I wanted, the shot count I wanted, and was very consistent as co2 guns tend to be until they run out of liquid.
With the single shot design, gun cool off isn’t a problem.
It’s a perfect 50 yard and under plinker.
I tend to grab that rifle when I go to the range with the powder burner guys and I bring an air rifle.
Out to 100 yards, I will stand toe to toe on hpa, with any gun they bring to the line.
Under 50 yards, they don’t even try to shoot some of the small targets I shoot.
9mm hulls at 50 yards, and empty .22lr hulls at 25 yards.
45Bravo,
AirForce does sell a tank with a MicroMetered valve. That one gets under 12 foot-pounds in their Talon SS on high pressure air and gets many shots. I have even blogged it for a test on a .177 Condor.
/blog/2008/07/the-airforce-condor-part-4-micro-meter-tank/
B.B.
Bravo
Sounds like fun gun to me.
I’m going to check it out.
B.B.
Interesting report! Seems to shoot very consistently. Can the “old” O rings be changed out for new better material ones?
Otherwise you have a heck of a safety feature. Shoot 50 pellets and wait 2 hours…
-Y
Yogi,
I don’t see why the o-rings couldn’t be upgraded.
B.B.
Hi all!
Yes, this is 3 years later, but I managed to acquire one of these Lov 21 pistols (new old stock) here in the UK recently. I wanted to record and share my experiences.
FIRST IMPRESSIONS
The plastic is tough and the metal is solid! Mine came with 2 identical piercer caps for 12g CO2 capsules and the seller kindly threw in a few spare O-rings for them. For those that don’t know, the O-ring goes around the lip of the central cylinder of the cap. When in place, the O-ring touches both that cylinder and the inside of the gas chamber cylinder in the handle, thus sealing the gas chamber.
FILLING
First, remember to push the cocking wings forward before loading a new CO2 capsule, like the instructions say! Otherwise, if the valve is open, all gas exhausts immediately in a few seconds! (how did I find that out?) If anyone is interested, I can upload a copy of the instruction manual. I did use Pellgun oil on the capsule end and on the O-ring too. Seems to be fine.
SIGHTS
I had to work a bit on the rear sight to ensure that it operated smoothly for U-D adjustment (I bent the engaging tab a bit, and added a thin washer and spring (cut from a biro pen) around the bolt. All this to ensure that the adjuster bolt engages properly and smoothly with the rear sight plate. For L-R, loosen one side bolt and tighten the other, to jig the sight plate across. Crude, but it works. None of these adjustments have clicks, so it’s very much shoot a group, adjust, shoot another group, adjust, etc, until you’ve dialled it in, then leave it there!
Front sight is just the plastic clam shell formed into a post. Mine is not quite square and inline with the top of the rear sight plate and later, I will carefully sand it flat. It may need a bit on the side too, as there is only a sliver of light either side of the front post. I’ve read that some users file open the rear sight notch slightly, but I think sanding down one side of the front post may be easier.
PERFORMANCE, FEEL & SHOT COUNT
The pistol does shoot quite briskly as previously noted – I measured 430-490fps depending on pellet mass (3.4 – 4.0 fpe). There’s only a slight increase in power with pellet mass. Wadcutters create beautiful clean holes in the paper. Speed is remarkably consistent, just as BB found. The trigger is metal blade, single-stage, light, and very useable. It’s enjoyable, and I think it’s the best single-stage pistol trigger I’ve ever used. To be clear, the Baikal IZH 46M for example has a much better trigger, but the Lov 21 one is predictable, consistent and most of all pleasurable.
I got between 40 and 50 shots per 12g capsule, and after the last shot, there is a clear “sigh” of exhausting CO2 to indicate emptying of the capsule. So this is much lower than BB’s experience. I’ll try a different brand of capsule, to see if I can get more shots. I had no issues unscrewing the cap. I don’t know if this is because the O-ring material is different to the one BB has tested, or for other reasons. However, no need to wait for an hour, and I have a second cap anyway.
The handle on the other hand is a bit irritating because of that angular hump in its back. I find it awkward to form a repeatable grip. On release there is a bit of torque that causes muzzle to flip slightly, and the handle can accentuate that. However, with practice, I could get the reaction and follow through quite uniform and repeatable shot to shot.
IS IT ACCURATE?
Well, as our US friends sometimes say, “You betcha it is!”. It actually surprised me: one string of shots – at 10m standing Olympic style – started 10, 10, 10 and made me giggle out loud. The hump in the grip and the slight flip does make it harder to be consistent than say, a FAS 604 or Baikal IZH 46m, but it’s not far off them. I’d say it’s slightly better than the CO2 Victory CP1 for target shooting, mainly because of the light and lovely trigger. I find the trigger and sight picture to be way better than the Gamo Compact (which has a stiff-ish trigger and sight width too narrow for my liking for target shooting). The Lov 21 is clearly inherently accurate. I have not shot it for accuracy rested, but standing, Olympic style, I was shooting 84/100 fairly easily consistently.
CONCLUSION
A quirky, interesting pistol and I’m really happy to add it to my collection. It is accurate and engaging to shoot. As a cheap first target pistol, the Lov 21 would be fantastic.
Chuckglider,
Better late than never. That’s a thorough review! Thanks,
BB
Hi BB and the group. I like the looks of this pistol. To qualify, I like the looks of the Webley Tempest, and the Cometa Indian. The fully adjustable rear sight looks very nice. The tight velocity of the pistol also intrigues me. I am hoping it has a good enough barrel , that you will do good on the accuracy test. The light weight trigger pull should help the accuracy.
Best wishes
Harvey
Yes, what you have got is definitely not the bulk fill cap. So it is just “battered” piercing cap.
The original pins have seen are just a 2mm wide, 6 mm long piece of steel – i have one at my table now. No point, no taper, no nothing. The allen wrench for additional leverage is badly needed. Plus if i remember correctly the old co2 bulbs were a bit easier to pierce than the new 12g.
Newer version of the piercing pin is a bit shorter, tapered, hollow – so it goes in easier and after piercing has a better flow. I will try to somehow upload o photo if anybody cares to see the difference.
Still if anybody has the problem of bent/destroyed piercing pin/cap and wants to get a new one for this type of gun drop a line to Tau Brno. They do cary spare parts for many older czech airguns – and they should be able to communnicate in English.
I did have a look at the cap you posted in Part 1 – and it seems that there is more wrong with it than just bent piercing pin… ther seems to be very little left of the pin at all!
I did take a picture of the both caps I have. https://ibb.co/isN7Fv – left ist newer design, right is original. But there seems to be some chaos in this. If you look at mine caps (from drulov du-10, should fit Tau 7 and 5, and as far as I was told also Lov 21) and at the drawing in manual in part 1 the piercing pin should stick out a lot out from the cap.
However your Lov 21 seems to have the pin inside of the cap. Wether any of them or just some new version – that I do not know. It may be that just the drawing in manual is wrong.. . But I did have a look online and the cap can be bought here localy – e.g. http://www.colosus.sk/redukce-lov21-na-co2-bombicky/ And there the pin is also “sunk” within the cap – but definitely you can see it.
In your cap it seems there is only a bit of metal left – so I am surprised you got it working at all 🙂
Plus concerning the allen wrench for leverage – user manual tells you to use it, it is not expected you would pierce many cartridges by hand, it just takes a lot of force to grip it tightly enough.
well… I thought I will let it at that, but you probably know that nagging feeling – that you dont have it all completed. So I did a quick research online here in the languages not available to USA citizens 🙂
It seems that there were two approaches to the 8g vs. 12g dilemma.
The older designs (Lov 21, Tau 5, Tau 7) were originally desiged to use shorter 8g capsule. When 12g was to be used, the cap was redesigned – made the pin is sunk to the bottom so longer cartridge fits.
The drulov DU-10 took opposite approach. They made the pressure chamber longer. So in here you can fit 12g capsule with the cap that has the piercing pin sticking out – the standard one for Lov21 and Tau. As that is 5 shot (sometimes 6 shot, as it has linear tubular magazine and more shorter pellets may fit in) repeater, 12g was deemed as standard, otherwise you would be changing cartridges too often. If in a pinch and you would like to use 8g in Drulov (and similar designs) then there is an insert provided that offsets the shorter cartridge by missing length.
you can see the Lov21/Tau 7 caps side by side here: https://ibb.co/k79jTF. still your pin is in a bad shape, or just seems so on the photo.
And this also clears the manual drawing question – the original piercing cap looks as pictured, but of course in US you have the “optional” one for 12g capsules, which looks different. Gues they did not make the manuals specially for US during the cold war 🙂
H3P04,
Thank you for the fine information and photo’s you have provided. Your input really added much to the conversation.
Mr. Phosphoric, we thank you! And now I know who to ask for questions about my CZ634. Of course like most CZ’s, it rarely needs an answer.
Sure, anytime 🙂
If you need anything form the old country I would be glad to help – Czech/Slovak airguns, German too. I may not know it all, but it is easier to find out if you speak the language 🙂
Concerning your CZ634 – if it is Slavia 634 made by CZ Uhersky Brod, these were for last 2 years made some 150 clicks eastwards in Slovakia (where I hail from). No big difference, used to be one country until some 15 years ago… Now the company produces them under new name – so any news concerning Slavia rifles you can try to search for Perun 734 (or 730 if old 630 was what you are interested in). So the same gun under new name, with higher model number should be produced for soem years. However the rumors go that the “old” ones are somehow better – but that may be just remembering the old days.
BB,
There seems to be much confusion about that pin in the cap. From the illustration you had in Part 1 I would say this pin is for pushing open a valve or a piercing pin on the attachment that screws onto the smaller cartridges.
The good news is that from the photo of the bottom of the cap it seems that this pin can be easily changed out and replaced with a pin that is pointed. For those with access to a small lathe, that should be quite easy to make. For those who don’t, I well imagine that if you hunt around a bit you will find someone who does. 😉
RR,
If you read Part 1 you will see that I said that pin was to open a valve — not to pierce.
Also, it isn’t as easy to change the pin as it looks. That e-clip is just the beginning. The cap is an assembly that is either pressed or brazed together.
B.B.
BB,
Another thought. In Part 1 you show a picture of the “cocking wings”. I am assuming that in the photo they are “at rest”. Have you tried pulling them toward the back to see if they will push open the valve so as to degas the pistol?
As on Drulov DU-10 pushing those back shuld de-gass the pistol. However usually manual says that this may be hard to do if there is still liquid co2 in the pistol. It is not recommended to force those. The metal on the “wngs” is not steel and may crack if pushed hard enough (even happens with wear after firing thousands of shots on some guns – the metalurgy was not prime concern for that part – this happened on my DU-10, with no loss of functionality). In such case the manufacturer reccomends to “dry shoot” several shots. Easy with DU-10 but probably not so much fun with Lov21.
RR,
I just caught the recap of the Mid-west Air Gun show down in Grove City, OH on the web site. It looked like a very nice one with good support. It looks like they really have their act together. If things ever settle down,.. it looks like a good one to hit. Thanks for the heads up on it. I had found them before,.. but was unaware that they were doing a show until you pointed it out. From my local,.. The P.A. shows, Findley and Grove City are all about 1~ 1 1/2 hrs. drive.
Chris,
You really need to attend a few. Even if you do not buy anything, it is a most interesting experience.
B.B.,
Fine performing so far. Looking forwards to the accuracy testing. Several questions:
1) Does it have any recoil/muzzle flip?
2) What is the height, length and weight? (the 92FS I have comes in at around 3#)
3) If the rear bolt has no mechanism to lock it in position,.. what is preventing the bolt from blowing back upon firing?
I would be tempted to reseal it if the seals could be easily accessed and replaced,.. just to eliminate the having to wait to change the Co2 cartridge. Also, I would be inclined to keep this one in the collection just for pure uniqueness alone.
Chris
Chris
BB—- I chronographed my Diana Mauser 98K ( with the vortek 16 joule tune kit installed) . It averages 685 fps. I am using .22 cal hobby pellets. When I bought it, I had P.A. do a 10 for 10. They got a velocity of 930 fps with Hobby pellets. I am happy with the results. ——-Ed
Ed,m
I remember you had a lot of cocking problems with that rifle. Not only was it hard to cock, the butt slipped. How is it now?
B.B.
Ed
That’s cool. I looked at those guns. I was very happy they made it as a air gun replica. I like that. Wish they would make more.
I was kind of turned off that they used the 460 platform. But detuning is definitely a option as you proved.
I bet it’s a much more enjoyable gun to shoot now. And I’m even going to bet it is probably more accurate now.
Good stuff. Glad you got it how you want. 🙂
B.B.,
Impressive shot count. That is another thing that reminds me of the Slavia APP 61.
I’m starting to have some love for the Lov!
Michael
I took the liberty of finding the below, in case any of you would like some peeks inside the Lov 21.
Michael
http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/006238/6238232.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2rf4js8.jpg
http://tufotki.pl/e2tkM
Mike,
Very nice. I love to see the inner workings of things. It looks as if the one set of photo’s was of a slightly modified version. Side bolt handle added, possible spring and ball detents added to the bolt, case “milled” out for handle to “lock down”, front peeper sight added. Interesting,…. Thank You.
P.S.,… the first pic/link would not load,… it said “forbidden”,… or something to that effect.
Chris,
I can’t get it to load either — now. Ten hours ago it was A-O.K.
All of that internal scalloped bracing must be how a plastic pistol can be made to feel solid in the hand.
Michael
Chris,
Are you one of the guiys here who has done power mods on the Daisy/Avanti 499? Awhile back someone here posted a URL for his web page detailing his work on the 499 in text but mostly very many detailed photos. Do you happen to have that URL by any chance?
Michael
Michael,
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/page-17
Yes I am and yes I did do the mod. and posted the link. It is just a Red Ryder spring. Cobalt kept the 499 seal, but I plugged the RR seal and used it. We both are shooting the same fps. I suggest adding the washer and making the little tool/spring compressor that he did/made. Other than that, it is quite easy and makes a huge difference. The accuracy improved as well,.. but then it is shooting 150 fps. faster. I modified the front lip of the RR seal as well. The 499 seal is hard and the RR seal is much more pliable.
Cobalt would be the best to ask any specifics to. I am more than happy to be of any service as well.
Chris
Dagnabbit Chris, you were 6 minutes faster on the draw than me.
You young whippersnappers!
Slinging Lead,
Well,.. I’m not so sure on the “young” part. The older I get, the more things “snap” and I end up feeling “whipped” by the end of the day,.. so I guess you got it close enough. 😉
Yea, those guys are pushing every limit. A RR with a 499 barrel, drilling out the shot tube/air tube ID as well as the air window. Custom spacers and shims,.. you name it. They are picking up new (old) ones all the time and have a pretty good idea of the design changes over the years. Definitely a good source of info. for anyone interested in the small lever actions.
Chis,
That does not seem to be the web page I am looking for. I saved just a small portion of it before my new anti-spyware became computer-crashing-ware. However, below are some clues:
1. The person posing with the work in the photos is wearing a denim shirt.
2. A stubby Philips head screwdriver with a blue rubber grip is used.
3. A small wooden headed mallet is used.
4. Step 26 is “Remove the Abutment.”
Michael
Michael,
None of that rings a bell with me. Are you looking for something very specific like a step by step tear down with photos? There is 17 pages there, so it may be on an older one. I had thought that you were just wanting to a RR spring swap.
Chris,
The page might be by Cobalt. It is EXTREMELY detailed, with probably 50 photos and / or steps.
Another clue: the homebrew fork tool is not made of wood but looks to be a metal fork tool attached to the end of a vintage push drill or screwdriver. The shaft is chromed steel, but the handle is wood and egg shaped.
Michael
The 499 in the photos has the folded steel plain aperture peep, not the more elaborate one with turret adjusters. Also, the work table is a rectangular work table covered with a white sheet.
Michael
Michael,
I am running out of stuff for you. If all you are trying to do is tear it down,.. I can talk you through that. I did some internet search and did not run up on much, but did find a 4H youth club thing/airgun-video/instruction,.. but it would not let me view it because I did not have Microsoft Office. I think it was 25 minutes long.
Chris,
Thanks for trying to help.
I think I’ll just painstakingly go through every single comments section of every blog entry from early May on and eventually get it. I am nothing if not intractible! ;^)
Michael
Michael
I think you may be referring to Cobalt327’s post for hot-rodding a Daisy. It isn’t 499 specific, but it does have a great number of very detailed photos. Definitely one for the archives.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/
Michael,
I did some more looking at my notes.
169750-00 Plunger Assy. That will get you the spring, latch rod and seal. Like 7$ shipped.
Trigger pull unchanged (2# 5 oz.)
Cocking effort from 5.5# to 10.5#
Spring 499 .695 coil diam., RR .710
Wire diam. 499 .079, RR .096, Both 7″ long
FPS 247 increased to 412
The washer needs to be 13/16″ OD per Cobalt and I figured the ID needs to be .408+
The spring tool looks to be a piece of 1×2 with 2 rods added to make like a 2 prong fork (1/8 or 5/32) rod with 6″ exposed per Cobalt
That is all I got for ya bud. I thought that I would just save you a bit of time on researching the topic.
Chris
BB—Stick on sandpaper ( stairs, skateboards paper) on the butt plate cured the slipping problem. Cocking is easier, but it is still not a pussycat. I can plink with it for 2 @ hours without too much strain. Before I got this rifle, my C1 was my hardest cocking rifle. I seldom used it. It is amazing how much easier it is to cock now. If only it had a lighter trigger ! ——Ed
Tom, a couple notes on the Czech CO2 guns:
First, I bought an LOV 21 pistol at the Grove City show last weekend and could not figure out why it included a little plastic bag containing a short piece of round rod – sure enough, it’s a tommy bar for the piercing cap! The action on this one feels slightly gritty so it may be worth cleaning the innards. These pistols were offered by the Plesinger crew around 2002 IIRC – I remember missing out on one for $70 at the old Little Rock show.
Second, all the Czech CO2 guns I’ve had were equipped with flat-face piercing pins; that’s why a cap tightening tool is normally included with the accessories. I suppose the engineers wanted to ensure an ample gas flow by punching out a circle vs wedging a pointy pin into the cartridge. An exception of course is the APP-661 with a tapered hollow flow-through pin a la Crosman 2240..
Don,
Welcome to the blog.
I just was told by Tyler that you bought the other pistol. I tried to buy it from him this morning because my CO2 cap is now stuck tight in the gun. The knurled cap unscrewed and popped the e-clip out of its channel, leaving the rest of the cap stuck tight.
You haven’t got any spare Drulov DU-10 caps, have you?
B.B.
BB,
I don’t have any extra Czech-style caps beyond what came with the guns – is it possible your problem is due to swelling of the O-ring seal and it will be removable after it goes back to normal?
Don,
It’s been 24 hours now and still no budge. I will get it. I just don’t want to harm the gun in the process.
B.B.
BB
I really think now you should not of pierced the cartridge how you did.
I thought that in part 1 but let it slide. Those adapters are there. For a reason.
Well at least something learned.
GF1,
Didn’t you read Don Raitzer’s comment? All of his Drulovs are pierced the same way.
B.B.
BB
Yes I did. But did you read what he said about the engineers and the adapter.
“Second, all the Czech CO2 guns I’ve had were equipped with flat-face piercing pins; that’s why a cap tightening tool is normally included with the accessories. I suppose the engineers wanted to ensure an ample gas flow by punching out a circle vs wedging a pointy pin into the cartridge.”
And why do you suppose yours is stuck right now?
GF1,
You don’t understand the dynamics of the cartridge in the gun. The pin may be stuck inside the cartridge, but the cartridge cannot be stuck in the gun. The pin is the only thing it can be stuck to.
B.B.
BB
But yes I do. That’s exactly what I meant with my last question.
I bet the cartridge is stuck on the pin. I thought you mentioned it bent the pin even.
GF1,
If the cartridge is stuck on the pin and the pin is stuck to the removable cap, why is the cap still stuck in the gun? The cap should remove with the cartridge still stick to it. Nothing holds the cartridge in the gun at this point.
Something else is holding the cap inside the gun, now that the knurled ring that is supposed to hold it has been removed.
B.B.
BB
Ok got it now. Guess didn’t understand how it was working.
Could the outside diameter of the cartridge got swelled out when you was tightening on the back of the cartridge to peirce the pin. I think you said it was a little harder to do than normal because of the flat pin instead of a pointed pin.
So now the sides of the cartridge is flarred out inside the gun.
GF1,
I suppose that could have happened. Also I could have pushed the other end of the cartridge into the tapered end of the chamber it fits in and just jammed it. That’s sort of what I think happened.
B.B.
BB
Take the pistol over to your buddy Otho’s house. Have him drill a hole in the end of the cartridge and tap some threads in it. Then you can thread a small bolt in it. Get a bolt that sticks out past the grip of the gun. Then you can grip the bolt with some vise grips or pliers and it should pull right out. Bet it will come out pretty easy.
GF1,
Can’t get to the cartridge — the cap is jammed tight. The cartridge is inside the grip, hidden by the cap.
I know how to extract stuck cartridges. All it takes is a wood screw and a pair of pliers.
B.B.
BB
I’m not paying attention today. I went back and read that a part of the cap is stuck in the gun.
I guess that’s the threaded part. Think it’s to big of a diameter for a easy out to work. Sometimes at work I get a 1/8″ diameter metal dowel rod about 4 inches long and sharpen a point on it.
Then I take a hammer and tap on the rod while I hold the point on the side and go in the he direction to unscrew.
Sounds like a pain the butt to me.
GF1,
You just described how we used to remove a large nut (I think it was called a gland nut) on a Harley. A chisel against the point of one of the flats.You had 6 chances to remove it before yo0u had to buy a new one.
B.B.
BB
Yep pretty much just like that.
I hope you get it out. Sure would hate to have to split the gun open to get it out. Guess that’s the last resort.
Thanks guys for the information on my BSA Multishot. It was most helpful. Now all I have to do is get up the nerve to attempt disassembly. It all begins when you remove that first screw. It has to be taken apart before any parts are ordered to know what to order, and also to order any part I screw up during disassembly/reassembly. And maybe I should try to call them (parts people) and find out if any special tools are needed. Its going to be fun and if I fail, then there goes a rather expensive airgun down the tubes.WooHoo!!
Reallead,
This guy, John Bowkett at; http://sillyfokkerrc.wix.com/john-bowkett-website may be able to give you guidance in your repair, he is in the UK but has a phone number in his contact section.
Tools, you will need a pin spanner and a hex key does not look too complex I gave you a link to the whole fill piece but you will probably only need to replace the o rings, possibly the spring and ball.
Heck give him a call, can’t hurt.
You will also need some molykote 111 for sealing, from what I have read do not use anything else.
Gunfun1—– I can not tell if the Diana Mauser 98k is more accurate after de-tuning. I shot it with the open sights before the tune kit was installed. After the the installation, I removed the open sight and replaced it with a Gamo target peep sight ( with an adjustable Merit disc). The rifle is much easier to load. The open rear sight over hung the barrel breech and made loading difficult. I wish I could call it a replica. In my opinion it is more of a caricature. It does not balance like a Mauser 98, the stock is thick and club-like, the grip feels like a ball or knob instead of a mauser grip, the sights are different, etc. It is accurate and fun to shoot , but a Mauser replica, NO. I collect millitary trainers, so this rifle is a must for my collection. I have 7 German .22 cal trainers . 3 are made by Norinco. I have several Mauser 98,s, and I have shot my friends Czech 47 ?. They all feel like a Mauser. This Diana does not. It is a clumsy, heavy , poorly balanced air rifle that has a superficial resemblance to a Mauser 98. If a better 98 style air rifle ever comes along, I will put this one up for sale. By comparison, my Gletcher Mosin-Nagant m 1944 is a near perfect replica. My only complaint is that it shoots BB,s instead of pellets. Other than it is what a replica should be.—–Ed
Ed
Tell me this.
What would you think if they made a big caliber pcp that did feel like the firearm. Like what you described. In other words it holds like the firearm but shoots like a PCP. In other words. Smooth.
Would you like the smooth accuracy of s PCP. Or a replica spring gun that could resemble a firearm recoil?
No trirck question. Really I want to know what you like in a military trainer as they are called too. What would like the guns characteristics be that would make you say this one is it.
Ed,
I still have a 25-yard test coming for the 98K with a scope.
B.B.
Mike-thanks for the link. I decided to go ahead and try the disassembly of the Hornet. At my age I know when I get to a spot when its not wise to go any further without consulting someone. Anyway, much to my delightful surprise I found out that the “guts” of the gun dont have to be tampered with to remove the fill valve. Instead of pulling out all the valves, seals, springs, etc from the airtube, the airtube is designed to slip off and away from the valves. It unscrews just forward of the rotary magazine. After its unscrewed it just slips off and viola-the airtube (the only part I needed off the gun) was in my hands. Another thing I really enjoyed during this experience was everything was pretty much secured “hand tight” instead of being put together with the usual “railroad torque” tightness found in other things.After disassembly of the fill valve, I found the little brass piece that actually seals the air from coming out. Its shaped like a tiny truncated shaped pistol bullet with sealing rubber covering the tapered part of it. The rubber was wearing out and rubber debris was interfering with the bearing surface.I went to that link but didnt see that part-it looked like they redesigned it and now it looks different. No matter for now-I cleaned off the debris and installed the piece back inside. Upon reassembly I filled the gun with air and no leak! I got lucky-had to be the easiest airgun fix Ive ever attempted. No doubt Ill eventually need a new part to replace this one so Ill take down their phone #. Thanks again for your response.
Good deal Reallead, glad you got it sorted, and without parts. YAY
Mike
Pacala
Thanks for sending the link. Mike in Atl sent a line also. They’re pretty much the same but Im keeping both. From studying the pics in the links, it appears BSA, Bowkett, or someone else redesigned the part as what is shown now in the link doesnt look anything like what was in my particular gun. Also, the links show a ball as one of the parts of the assembly. My gun has no ball so this is indicative of a redesign. Instead its got this piece that looks like a small truncated cone shaped pistol bullet with a seal attached . After a little cleanup of the valve and a slight dabbing of silicon grease, the gun’s fixed, which was what I was hoping for. Sometimes parts are not needed in a repair. Thanks again-yours and Mikes’ efforts are appreciated.
BB—I think that the “98k” will be very accurate at any distance up to (at least) 50 yards. But when I shoot my “98”, it feels like a heavy, clumsy, chunky, muzzle heavy air rifle. Do you remember the old saying–the Americans built a target rifle, British a battle rifle, and the Germans a hunting rifle. Mausers ( firearms) balance, point and handle like shotguns, more than rifles. This Diana does not have the same characteristics as the firearm .In my judgement, as an air rifle, I like it a lot. But as a replica, it falls short of my expectations. —–Ed
Gunfun1—Read my comments in my post to BB. I do not expect any trainer (.22 LR, springer, co2, pcp) to be able to replicate the sensations of firing a military firearm. To satisfy ME, a replica must have the same stock configuration, sights and balance , and trigger as the original. That is why my Crosman M1 and my Gletcher 44, Umerex 1911, Crosman 78, S&W 586 are my favorite guns. ——Ed
Ed
Yep just read your comment to BB. Now I know what you mean. Thanks.
The balance of a gun makes a difference to me even with non military training air guns. That is one reason I think I can shoot the HW30s so good unsupported. It just seems to fit right in place when I hold it. I guess natural is the word I’m looking for.
Gunfun1—–My Bronco would be on my list if it,s stock matched the 1903 Springfield rifle. I am looking for a stock, or a junk Bronco so that I can try to alter the stock to match the 1903. My wood working skills ( or lack of) are in the “rabid beaver” category .——Ed
Ed
I say go for it. You might just surprise yourself and it be a really cool gun.
BB
Regarding “All pneumatic and CO2 airguns are stored with air or gas in them, if possible. It keeps the valves sealed against contaminants in the air.” What about storing SSPs like a Daisy 853?
Cobalt
Probably some air left in them after the shot. Just like the multi pumps.
And don’t know about that on Co2 guns. Think I would rather not leave the seal smashed for long periods of time by leaving that he cartridge in. Yes no leak down probably if left in. But the seal probably took a shape of the cartridge that was left in the gun. The next cartridge might be dimensionally a little different in a way that could cause the cartridge to not compress the smashed seal from leaving the other cartridge in the gun over a long period of time.
I know, I know. Done been talked about before of what could be. Just stating what I seen happen with Co2 seals from the cartridge head.
Cobalt327,
Single strokes are different. Their pump piston seals are also their inlet seals. They have to be softer to function. Therefore all the manuals warn not to store them longer than 5 minutes with air because the seals will deform and extrude.
B.B.
Excellent, thank you!
Might pertain more to bulk filled CO2 guns. My 853 doesn’t retain any pressure after being shot. Imma just not worry about it- if storing the 853 empty was a big problem, it would have surfaced before now.
Don’t know if ya all heard me say I got a .22 caliber Tx 200 Mrklll. Not a carbine model. The full length one.
Heard they don’t shoot as well as a .177 model. Found out that’s not true. This gun shoots as well as the .177 I got some time back. Plus has alot more energy at the target. Maybe Chris U is right about the .22 caliber guns. It definitely puts a thump’n on my steel targets.
And yep tryed it scoped and with my trusty ole Tasco red dot that has been on more guns than I can remember. And just a quick note. I haven’t yet put a new battery in it since I got it. Probably around 2009 I’m thinking. And I should say now since we are talking Tx. The .177 Tx did exceptionally well with it out to 50 yards. And that’s bench rested. The Tx’s are a bit heavy to shoot unsupported as Chris U mentioned also.
And yes it does like the JSB 15.89’s the best. And yes I have learned again. Yes again to trust the sight. The red dot hits no matter what if I aim center mass out to 50 yards. And that’s zeroed at 35 yards wich I find to work best at that distance.
Ok I’ll be quiet now. Figured I would share the info though for the people who don’t have one (yet). Notice the word yet. 🙂
GF1, Before I had any PCP’s,.. The TX got shot a lot. It will punch holes in both sides of a steel can at 50 yards. I am pretty sure it will do it at 70 too, but it has been a long time since I tried it. The Maximus is doing 824 (15.89) and the TX is doing 643 fps (15.89). My TX likes the 18.13’s better and the LGU likes the 15.89’s best. The Maximus likes the 15.89’s. The TX has the HO Vortek kit in it. It boosted the fps by around 30, but also smoothed it out some more. And yes, I do believe the .22’s will carry further, be more stabile out further and have more retained energy at target. Like I said, it is all relative.
Chris U
Do you shoot the LGU anymore?
GF1,
Not much. The TX and LGU just got shot today. 20 and 10 shots respectively. The main reason that I got them out was I was having eye/scope/?/? issues and wanted to compare what I had. It was super bright out and I get a lot of reflection off the front of the house and the shed.
Chris U
That’s where the breezeway is nice again also when I shoot inside. I’m always in the shade.
Just wondering do you wear a hat when you shoot? I do. I make sure I pull it down so it’s touching my scope. It definitely helps when outside shooting in the sun. Well come to think about it with open sights and red dots too.
GF1,
Yea,.. I need to do something. I did get a hat, but took it to work. I am not much of a hat wearing person at all. My eyes are sensitive to bright light anyways. My favorite shooting days are cloudy days.
Chris U
Same with my eyes too. And the only time I wear a hat is when I shoot. And if it’s sunny out when I 4 wheel. But as far as going to work or the store I don’t wear a hat.
And got some clip on shades I wear on my prescription glasses too. That seams to help also.
Gunfun1—–I just got back from a local gun show. I saw a Mauser 71/84 with a short barrel and magazine tube. I think that a German gunsmith converted a military rifle into a sporter, perhaps 100 years ago. Even this rifle had better balance and pointed better than my Diana 98. I have both the HW30S and a 20+ year old Beeman R7. I know what you mean, however the R7 has a stock that fits me better than the 30. I have to strech my trigger finger to reach the trigger on the 30. the R7 puts my finger on the trigger perfectly. I wish that we lived near each other, so that you could try both of my rifles. How old is your 30? I bought mine new , less than 2 years ago. I wonder if HW has changed their stocks recently. ——-Ed
Ed
Just got mine with PA’s birthday sale. So it’s new. Maybe 3 weeks old.
I don’t have a old one or a R7 to go by. What do you see different that they changed?
Gunfun1——-The most important difference is that the pistol grip dimensions have changed. The R7 grip puts my hand closer to the trigger. A person with large hands and long fingers would probably feel cramped on the R7 stock. I have a medium size hand and the R7 was probably designed as a youth stock, the 30 more for a large , adult hand. ——–Ed
Gunfun1——-Both the R7 and 30 are superior to the Diana 98 with regard to a natural grip that allows easy, almost instinctive pointing.. ——-Ed
Ed
So then is the R7 weigh less then the HW30s?
And I find my HW30s to be on the small side. I was thinking it was more of a youth gun. I guess the R7 must be much smaller then. I would like to shoot one of them one day.
Gunfun1—The R7 and the HW30 are the same size, same gun. There are minor differences in the iron sights. The stocks have small differences. They weigh the same ( minor difference due to natural variations in the wood. ) Mr. Beeman imported the barreled actions from HW, and put on American style stocks when they arrived here.—-Ed
Ed
Your R7 is a older one isn’t it. Check this out I was just looking at them on the Pyramyd AIR site. There is some differences in the ones being sold now. Check out the specifications.
/product/beeman-r7-air-rifle?m=1899
/product/weihrauch-hw30s-air-rifle?m=2018
gunfun1—-2 of these new R7,s were on the table at a recent Middletown N.Y. gunshow. I was not comfortable with their stocks. I also prefer rifles with iron sights. My friend bought a HW30S and I shot it several times. I decided to get one. I need 2 of these rifles because I have 2 ranges. One in the basement and another in my backyard. I often found that when I wanted to shoot my R7, it was at the wrong range. Now I have one at each range. I had been waiting to get another older R7, but I got tired of waiting. There are no air gun shows near where I live. ——Ed
Ed
All I know is I’m very happy with my HW30s. Nice little guns.