by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- The “Dark Side”
- Early problems
- Modern precharged airguns
- Benjamin Discovery
- Slow conversion
- The $100 PCP
- Other changes in the PCP world
- Fill coupling standardization
- Price point PCP
- It’s no longer the “Dark Side”
This blog is read by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. When they are new to airgunning they usually land here first, or very soon after they start searching the internet for information on airguns. And some of these blog reports are found way more often than others. This is one of them.
We are seeing a huge influx of new airgunners in the United States. They are coming over primarily from the world of firearms, either because they can’t find ammunition or they don’t want to pay the high prices. And this has happened at the time when the technology of airguns has exploded! Ten years ago it was a real feat to shoot 10 pellets into a one-inch group at 100 yards. Today there are airguns that have made it commonplace when the wind permits.
There is also a large number of people who are buying firearms for the first time. The National Rifle Association puts the number of new gun owners at 10 million, or twice as many as there were active shooters in the United States a decade ago. We know that previously over 70 million housholds in America had at least one gun, but most were not active shooters. Well that number has now swollen by another 10 million, and these people are newcomers who need to learn everything about handing firearms. These people will be shooters — at least for a while.
These are adults who never previously showed any interest in owning or shooting a firearm, but for various reasons have changed their minds. No doubt many of them believe there will be classes available for them, and there are, but we all know how widely the quality of such instruction varies. I’m going to do my part to fill in the blanks for them.
Pyramyd AIR has asked me to update this report to help all the new airgunners. I wrote this one in 2019 — just a few years ago. Let’s see what has changed in the past two years.
The “Dark Side”
Airguns (pellet guns and BB guns) are powered by one of three principal powerplants. There are guns with a piston that is pushed forward by a spring to comprerss air to push the projectile and these are called spring-piston guns. There are guns that operate on carbon dioxide, a compressed gas, and we call these CO2 or gas guns. Then there are pneumatics that operate on stored compressed air. These further break down into single-stroke pneumatics that use just one pump of air, multi-pump pneumatics that the shooter pumps a number of times for each shot and precharged pneumatics (PCP) that are filled with compressed air from an outside source and are then fired several times before refilling. Today’s report is about precharged pneumatics, alone. Precharged airguns exist as both rifles and pistols, but this report will concentrate on rifles.
Back in the late 1990s, when precharged pneumatics were still relatively unknown to many airgunners, someone took license from the movie series “Star Wars” and coined the phrase the“Dark Side” to represent involvement with PCPs. At the time most airgunners identified with spring-piston guns and regarded precharged pneumatics as odd, different and too difficult to understand. At the time it looked like that would be the case indefinitely.
Early problems
Precharged pneumatics are not a new technology. In fact, they are the oldest type of airguns, dating back to sometime in the 16th century. The best guess puts them around 1550! Those guns, however, were each made by hand and were frightfully expensive. They existed at a time when repeating firearms were also the stuff of dreams, so in 1780 it was the airgun and not the firearm that became the first successful repeater.
There had been repeating firearms before then, but they tended to explode because of the dangers of loose gunpowder, which at that time meant black powder. Indeed Bartolemeo Girardoni’s son was killed when a repeating firearm he was experimenting with blew his arm off! Incidentally, the last name is spelled GiraRdoni — not GiraNdoni! Dr. Beeman has met with the Girardoni family and confirmed this. Unfortunately, the long article on the Beeman webpage still shows the old spelling. Girardoni invented the model 1780 21-shot repeating air rifle that served for 20 years in the Austrian Army and also was the rifle Lewis and Clarke carried on their journey. It is considered the most important rifle that ever existed, as its presence protected the expedition of soldiers in Indian territory.
The Girardoni repeating air rifle of 1780.
Precharged pneumatics were made right up to the 1920s, in the form of air canes. But they were still quite expensive and far from the mainstream of the shooting sports. After that time production quietly ceased and these airguns were unheard of for more than half a century.
Modern precharged airguns
In 1980 someone rebarreled a Daystate dart-shooting tranquilizer gun with a .22-caliber pellet rifle barrel and the modern PCP was born. That gun was called the Daystate Huntsman when it went into production. I owned one of these early Daystate Huntsman PCPs that I purchased used in the 1990s and I still own a Shamal PCP that Air Arms made in the early ’90s.
At first people were just glad that such an airgun existed. It was almost a science experiment. How it got filled with compressed air was secondary. And that was how the PCP we know today got restarted at the end of the 20th century.
For 26 years (1980-2006) PCPs were expensive and arcane. The cheapest ones cost over $600 in the mid 1990s and they all used their own unique fill devices that did not work with other guns. Ownership was considered a privilege and you almost had to appeal to a higher power to get someone to tell you how these airguns worked. If you were on the inside and used PCPs you understood them as well as they could be understood at the time. If you were on the outside it looked like a closed society. You had to wait for a tap on the shoulder to be asked to join the ranks. It was the reverse of communism. It was elitism.
Benjamin Discovery
In 2007 Crosman brought out the Benjamin Discovery — a single-shot PCP that sold for very little money (around $250 for the rifle, alone), compared to the other PCPs of the day. In fact, some airgun manufacturers said a PCP couldn’t be made to sell at a price that low. The Discovery was also made to operate on 2000 psi air instead of the then-popular 3000 psi. That made filling it with a hand pump much easier, so Crosman wisely bundled a pump with the rifle and sold it as a complete package for around $400. The rifle had the male Foster fill coupling that has since become widespread. And it came with a manual that explained everything about its use. No more secrets! In a very real sense the Benjamin Discovery was the Rosetta Stone of the PCP world. More than 4,000 of them sold in the first year, alone, making it every bit as popular as the AirForce TalonSS. A pity that it is no longer available, but there are other inexpensive PCPs that are even nicer.
Crosman had previously sold British-made PCPs under the Crosman name — which is how airgun companies used to break into the PCP market. But those guns had all the problems of the startup age — a lack of documentation and proprietary fill technology.
The Discovery was dirt-simple and taught shooters how to operate a PCP. It also taught Crosman how to build PCPs, which was just as important. Building the Discovery was a series of lessons for them. When they brought out the Benjamin Marauder the following year, they knew very well how to build PCPs, plus the airgun public was starting to accept Crosman as a PCP maker.
Slow conversion
I thought the Benjamin Discovery would throw open the doors to the PCP world, and it did for Crosman. But most of the other airgun manufacturers didn’t seem to grasp the importance of what had just happened. Well — happy days for Crosman and AirForce! They each sold tens of thousands of PCPs, while all their competition combined wasn’t selling as many as either one of them, alone. The door had be forced open a little farther.
The $100 PCP
The Benjamin Discovery was supposed to alert the airgun makers that customers wanted performance at a good price, but that didn’t happen right away. Oh, there were some cheap PCPs built in China and elsewhere. But that’s all they were — cheap! They lacked the thought, documentation and reliability that went into the guns that consumers really wanted. They also lacked an established support base, as in when something bad happens, who ya gonna call? At the same time the elite manufacturers continued doing what they had always done, by selling what they had always sold. They prided themselves by saying they were making airguns of unparalleled quality, but features like the Marauder’s power adjustments and adjustable trigger and AirForce’s ability to swap barrels and calibers at the drop of a hat were very big flies in their ointment jars.
So, I did an experiment with the PCP that I thought could be manufactured to retail for $100. I called it the hundred-dollar PCP. Dennis Quackenbush was kind enough to build one for me to test from a Crosman 2100B. He made it safe, but put absolutely no embellishments on the gun and “produced” it for so little that the retail of $100 was more than possible for a large company like Crosman.
I tested that gun and found that it worked good enough to warrant spending some development money on the project. Two years later at the SHOT Show Crosman informed me they had watched both the six-part blog report on that experiment, and the readers’ reactions, and it spurred them to come out with the Benjamin Maximus in 2017. And, in an odd twist of fate that I hope was a calculated decision on their part, they installed a barrel on the Maximus that they produced after a company-wide product improvement project on barrel-making. So, the Maximus came to market with improved accuracy over the Discovery and even over the Marauder that carried Crosman’s barrels. Since that time Crosman has converted their entire barrel-making process, and today every PCP barrel they make is made the new way. They even make their own .25-caliber barrels, which they used to buy from Green Mountain.
Other changes in the PCP world
During this fourteen years — 2007 to 2021 — other big changes have been made in the PCP world. Shooters have switched from 3,000 psi scuba tanks to carbon fiber tanks that hold a lot more air, yet weigh less. Retailers like Pyramyd AIR are now selling pre-owned carbon fiber tanks with extended lives at lower prices because they have an extended life, due to changes in the tank testing specifications.
Air compressors have been engineered expressly for airguns and the prices have dropped from over $3000 to under $1500 for a machine that will fill a large tank in minutes. I filled an 88 cubic-foot carbon fiber tank from 2200 psi to 4500 psi in 38 minutes, using the Air Venturi compressor.
There are also smaller and less expensive compressors made to fill just airguns and not tanks. The Air Venturi Nomad II is one that I tested for you. And Benjamin has their Traveler and Umarex their ReadyAir.
Fill coupling standardization
In 1990 no company’s PCP was compatible with the fill couplings from a different company. In 2021 the companies that still use proprietary couplings are viewed as troglodytes. The Foster quick-disconnect fitting has taken over the market to the extent that any company not yet on board is losing sales. The proof of that comes in the form of proprietary fill probes that are machined as male Foster fittings on their other end, plus numerous adaptors that bring the proprietary couplings into the real world.
Price point PCP
Then there is the phenomenon of the price point PCP — the value-packed precharged airguns that retail for just under $300. Not only have they burst the doors wide open in the PCP market, they have also encouraged manufacturers to sell their other products at more affordable rates. One outstanding example of this is the Air Venturi Avenger, a PCP that allows the shooter to not only adjust the power but also the regulator from outside the airgun! And it is just as accurate as a $1,700 Air Arms S510 XS. So it can be done. It just takes thought.
It’s no longer the “Dark Side”
The result of all these changes has opened the doors wide to precharged airguns. Consumers are now flooding in. Those who still refer to PCPs as the “Dark Side” are now officially dinosaurs. And the PCP is now developed enough for the person who is new to shooting to operate.
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.” – Yoda
B.B., So far, I’m still holding out against the Dark Side!
Although, I read all your reports on PCPs with great interest.
You may flip me one day. =)~
Keep on trying,
dave
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! One day you will be ours!
Most of my airguns are sproingers, but I have a compressor and a tank and a hand pump…
“One day you will be ours!”
Hahaha! RR, I could see maybe a 2000 psi rifle and a hand pump.
Too bad the Saxby-Palmer cartridge system got [foolishly] banned by ill-informed ignorant politicians.
I guess they would count as PCPs; and it was an awesome system for creating firearm replica airguns
that would feed cartridges and operate exactly like the real thing.
I had my eye on a Colt Peacemaker clone when the silly ban went into effect.
Umarex is doing a pretty good job of filling the gap with their CO2 replicas,
but it’s not quite the same as having a PCP cartridge, fully self-contained.
Perhaps some day a USA-based company, with a team of sharp lawyers,
will come up with their own Saxby-Palmer-type system
which never should have been banned in the first place. =D
Dave,
There are a couple of rifles like that. One of those companies is supposedly working on a pistol cartridge.
Cool! =>
Here is there site, but this does not look good right now.
http://inovairtech.com/
Dave,
My first two PCPs were a Talon SS and an Edge, both of which I filled with a hand pump. It was not that difficult. With the new hand pumps it is even easier. The Discovery/Maximus is a superb air rifle. You can also adjust and operate the Marauder at 2000PSI if you like.
I’m starting to feel like Luke in the cave…close to the Dark Side! =>
“I am your fadda.” (Oops, wrong actor. Retake scene.)
“I am your father.” (followed by amplified sound of breathing through air filtration system)
Hahahaha! Good one, man! =)~
I would definitely be interested in a .25 cal pcp cartridge for my .25-06 deer rifle so I could practice shooting my deer rifle in the basement. Nothing like practice for trigger familiarization and accurracy improvement. Shooting the real thing at $3 a pop is too expensive and that’s if ammo can be found, let alone not being able to get to the range. I’ve been meaning to get snap caps for it, and there is that laser target shooting app I’ve seen advertised, but there’s something satisfying about shooting holes in paper….
Getting over COVID that ran through the whole family. Kids bounced right back. Its been a slog for us adults.
Wow, Roamin Greco, I’m glad you guys are OK; and as for this: “a .25 cal pcp cartridge for my .25-06 deer rifle.” Yes, that would be very cool. 🙂
The DM
BB wrote a blog in 2007 about just this.:
“Saxby-Palmer Ensign – a precharged rifle from the past.”
If I knew how to link it, I would,,, but sadly that will be left to someone more knowledgable.
Ed
Ed,, I found it here:
/blog/2007/10/saxby-palmer-ensign-a-precharged-rifle-from-the-past/
Yes, that is a cool little rifle; thank you! 🙂
Take care,
dave
I got my first PCP in I think 2004. I quickly went back to spring pistons.
In the last month I got a Gauntlet, and an Aspen. 25 and 22 respectively.
In the last 15 years the game has changed, but not like night and day. Hand pumps are way better! That is a huge plus. I can pump to 3k psi without much effort compared to an old hill pump. But compressors are still priced out of easy affordability, and availability.
“But compressors are still priced out of easy affordability, and availability.”
Yes, Ed; that’s why I find the guns that can be used with a hand pump, or built-in pump,
to be the most intriguing of the lot…
(i.e. they will be the ones that RidgeRunner is predicting will push me to the Dark Side! =>).
I really like the Aspen .22 you mentioned, and that B.B. tested extensively here:
/blog/2018/11/air-venturi-seneca-aspen-precharged-pneumatic-air-rifle-part-5/
B.B.
Automatic transmissions, self driving cars, and PCP’s take all the fun out of it!
-Y
Yogi,
You are quite correct in not going to PCP’s. It is opening the door to a very slippery slope of effortless fun and your prized springers will soon lose the lure and luster that they once held. 😉
Chris
Yes, effortless is the problem.
Like using a laser pointer…
-Y
Yogi
I like when my airguns have that laser beam shooting problem.
Matter of fact that’s what I want in every gun I pick up and shoot. Laser pin point accuracy.
Yogi,
“If man was meant to fly…”
Now I do have to say that those self driving cars scare the bageebers out of me. They can keep them things in the cities for all I care. I don’t go there anyway.
RR,
The thought of self-driving cars used to bother me but seeing how many people drive these days is even more scary! Seems that a major portion of drivers learned to drive on the “Mario Kart” video game and think that high speed weaving in and out of rush-hour traffic will actually get them to work sooner.
I drive a 2018 which has lane change and back-up sensors that, while they are not a substitute for situational awareness do, an excellent job of advising me of potential hazards. The technology is available.
Would be nice if manufacturers had sensors on the passenger side of the vehicle to help the drivers who don’t know how wide their truck is and insist on encroaching into the opposite direction lane.
Cheers!
Hank
“…drivers who don’t know how wide their truck is and insist on encroaching into the opposite direction lane.”
Hahaha! They’re not just up there, Hank!
We’ve got a million of those guys down here in Georgia! =)~
Hank,
On the roads that I drive, if you are not paying attention you will not be on the road very long. Like I said, I don’t do them cities, or highways for that matter. The idiots can have them.
V2
They already have lane change alarms and even a tactile sensation when you do ( unless you have your turn signal on). Same for slowing you down when approaching a vehicle from behind. All that is in pretty much all the new cars.
That was actually disconcerting to me when I bought my last vehicle and I spent about an hour figuring out how to turn the damned thing off.
Ed
Ed,
Know what you mean, hate when the engineers design “wonderful” new features and don’t provide the owner a way to turn them OFF! Been driving in Canadian winters for 50+ years, I don’t need or want and an “icey conditions” alarm that goes off at 4 degrees C. In the fall and spring the darn thing startles me when it sporadically goes off. It’s more dangerous than the ice and there is no way to turn it off!
Hank
“If man was meant to fly…”
He would be part of dinosaurs’ evolutionary tree…
-Y
Yogi,
That is what they are trying to tell us. I don’t buy it.
RR,
I live in southwest MI and people drive like maniacs here. I’m sure that it is even worse in other areas of the country. Where in the world did people ever get the idea that it was okay to drive 80 mph at one car length behind? And, it does not matter that the roads may be icy and snow covered. I won’t even venture onto the expressways if the roads are not clear. I get angry with people tailgating me at 70 and then cutting in and out of traffic. People drive so close together that it makes it very difficult to even merge onto the highway. Maybe it is time for self driving cars? I think we would all be safer on the roads now that people have forgotten how to drive. It’s just crazy out there and I no longer enjoy driving, even locally. We have 30-100 car pileups on our expressways here. That was unheard of 30 years ago. Apparently we have created a generation of idiot drivers. Done with my rant now.
Geo791,
LOL! That is why I stay off of those things and drive the back roads. I am in the “hills” of SW VA. Like I said, if you are not paying attention when you are driving, you will not be on the road very long. You will be into the trees or over the hill or a combination thereof.
A tactic I have is if someone is following me too closely I will slow down to the safe speed at which they are following. Using the two second rule, it can be pretty slow. Also putting on the brakes suddenly makes some of them back off a bit. Of course you still have the bunch who have no limbs on the family tree.
RR,
Then,… there is those that will close that 1 car gap to mere inches out of pure rage. That is the time that I wish that I had a big pick up with a homemade, low mounted, rear bumper made of MC12″ channel, well braced. A simple warning tap would be a full lock up! I am (not) that way,… but some people do not know when to quit or back off. “….. no limb’s on the family tree”,….. cute! 😉
I avoid the “city”, Columbus in my case, at all cost.
Chris
Chris,
LOL! Yes, the do. When they get that close, the brake lights come on and they lock them down. Sooner or later they either totally lose it or back off. Either one is fine.
Chris,
I have often thought the very same thing. Big old truck with like 500 hp and a big trailer hitch on the back. Hit the brakes…then mash the gas. Lesson learned.
Geo,,,
30 years ago puts us back in 1991,, and according to Wiki,, there were a number of multicar crashes in that year. In fact,, there was a 100 car pileup in 1965.
We may look back with nostalgia for the “old days”, but there were probably the same percentage of idiots on the road then as now. But,, the population has gotten bigger and so has the pool of moron drivers.
Ed
B.B.,
Good article. Things have changed a lot just in the short time I have been around. (late ’14) I have the .25 M-rod and .22 Maximus and love them both. I am thinking now that I might want a Crosman in house .25 barrel for the M-rod,… if it would be a direct swap.
Good Day to you and to all,…….. Chris
BB
After reading the yellow forum for a while I got the impression that PCP’s were referred to as the dark side of air gunning because they were about as powerful as a firearm at close ranges and people wanted to sort of keep them under the radar of the anti-gun crowd so as to avoid a landslide of restrictive legislation. Dreading the day someone actually took someone’s life with one. These are serious adult airguns that require serious supervision and training for use by young people. Heck even adults need a little education on them.
Well so far so good and hopefully they are still considered “Just Airguns” by most people who don’t own any of them.
It looks like firearm manufacturers that do not convert to manufacturing them are the only casualties and they may have committed suicide by allowing ammunition prices to go through the roof. The times are changing too. But as long as we have war, and bad guys still exist, there will be a need for firearms. Although hunters may be turning to the dark side in ever larger numbers as open hunting space slowly disappears.
One last thing. I’m not too sure well known firearm manufacturers should include their company name prominently on the airguns they make so as to keep airguns from becoming connected too much with firearms. Replicas, ok, but you know how confused anti-gunners are. I just hope a fully automatic revolver never shows up one day and supports their comments.
Bob M,
At one time I would have laughed at your comment concerning a fully automatic revolver, but now I know that it is possible. Not practical, but possible.
RidgeRunner
I guess the Webley-Fosbery might have been modified being a semi-auto and the Evanix Speed was actually a full-auto revolver but in a rifle and cheated with batteries. But your right, if there’s a will there’s a way.
Bob
or the Mateba Autorevolver. I like both, but both is like an answer but with no question. Revolver’s strong point is reliability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateba_Autorevolver
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webley%E2%80%93Fosbery_Automatic_Revolver
Doc
Bob M,
Actually, I was thinking of a firearm such as the Webley-Fosbery. I have seen a video of a bull-pup air rifle that used “casings”, but it apparently did not pan out. I imagine trying to find all of them little buggers afterward was not fun, even if they were red.
RidgeRunner
I actually have a select fire RAP4 M4 air rifle that can shoot pellets, bb’s, airsoft and two sizes of paintballs not to mention hard rubber balls and pepper spray capsules. It uses interchangeable barrels and plastic casings to shoot small things in the 1/2″ paint ball mags used. Paint balls use a thin metal casing to stack them too. The trick is to use a shell catcher net attached to the rifle. Talk about a time saver after a full auto event.
If I remember right P/A carried those rifles once but they were expensive, very good quality though.
Bob M,
I myself have fooled with quite a few selective fire/full auto weapons and airguns over the years. They are kind of fun for a bit, but I have always been the sniper kind of dude. One shot at long range is the way I play. 😉
RR
And that is the ultimate airgun challenge.
Bob
Yep I use a shell catcher on my semi-auto rimfire rifles. That way I don’t have to go around the yard picking up all those tiny rimfire cases.
yea, wait till somebody shows up at their job evaluation meeting with a PCP.
Bob M very good points. 60 fpe is 60 fpe!
-Y
Bob M,
The draw of the dark side is its power. 30 plus ft-lbs without an arm workout that would make Arnie sweat and without filling-loosening, scope-busting recoil. Even better; all that power without the sacrifice of accuracy. Not to mention follow-up shots available at the flick of a wrist. It’s tempting, very tempting. I don’t think I can resist much longer. Have already caved in and bought a stirrup pump. A PCP can’t be too far off in the future 🙂
Bob R
You said it all. Awesome Instruments. I don’t shoot a 308 firearm for fun myself. From the hip ? not so bad ! You know it’s like buying a HD Sportster … Only a mater of time before you get a full blown hog.
A hand pump will eventually get old. I got my FX Independence to eliminate the needed workout. I think any one will do with a compressor at hand. The Seneca Aspen in 22 would be great if you don’t want to go crazy shooting mass quantities of pellets at a time. A PCP is an eye opening experience for a firearm shooter. A guaranteed smile maker. 🙂
Bob M
BB,
I began my journey through the world of airguns just before the Discovery came to be. At that time the world of PCPs was indeed the world of the elite. A modest price air rifle such as the BSA SuperTen was still a big chunk of change. The Korean air rifles were popular because their price tags were very reasonable, but you had better know something about PCPs if you were going to own one because the quality was not so great and you were going to have to tinker with it. Even the price of a good quality sproinger was not that much of a bargain.
Today you can own a nice sproinger for about what it cost back then. As for the PCP, for what you would pay for an “entry level” air rifle then you can buy a real nice PCP today. I am not talking inflationary dollars either. A SuperTen then cost about $700. I bought a used Gamo CFX for $150. That was a good price.
My head spins with what I see these days. Why am I willing to spend so much for something like my HM1000X? Because not so long ago something of that quality, accuracy and power would have cost over $5000 and it would have been custom made by someone like Gary Barnes. I know. I discussed such with him back when his air rifles were costing about that.
Today, you can buy for a very modest price what we only dreamed about not so long ago. Thank you BB.
B.B.
Right now, all my airguns are CO2 powered. However with the arrival of the lower price compressors, I will eventually buy a PCP rifle. It’s just a question of which one.
I had a chance a few years ago to shoot someone’s Air Arms T200 Sporter. Since then I’ve been thinking that the T200 might become my first PCP. One question I have for you about it, can the removable air cylinder be installed and removed while pressurized?
The other possible PCP that I might consider purchasing is that new Mauser K98 PCP coming out later this year. I’m eager to read your review on that one.
Charles,
I don’t have a clue about the T200 tank, other than why would it exhaust air when removed from the gun? That is a CO2 fault, not one found in a PCP.
However, as the manual doesn’t address it, I have asked Tyler.
B.B.
Charles,
Okay, Tyler tells me I am right. You can disconnect the tank without losing any air other than the small amount that has been released for the next shot. There is no way around that.
Taking the tank off the gun is the normal way to refill it. If you think about it, if it lost air when off the gun you could never fill it off the gun and put it back on without major air loss.
B.B.
That’s what I had thought. The removable air cylinder was one of the T200 Sporter features that appealed to me. I’m thinking possibly to have 2 or 3 cylinders so that as one gets low on pressure, remove it, install the next one, and keep on shooting.
By the way, do you happen to know when this year the new Diana Mauser K98 PCP might be released to market?
Charles
You get 60-70 shots on a tank unless you crank it up. It will go up to 12-14 ft-lb JSB 8.4) if you do it, but will give you fewer shots.
tt
Charles,
Diana told me the 98K PCP would be here early this year. Before summer.
B.B.
B.B.
The T200 tank has to be removed to fill it . There is no air stored in the rifle. Air only gets released from the tank when you fire it.
You can use a S200 tank on it too, but that one can be filled from either end . The front fill uses the standard AA adapter. Both tanks use the same screw on adapter for the back end. You will need a DIN adapter to use this.
tt
TT,
Wait a minute! There is a firing chamber that has air in it. When the tank is unscrewed air is lost — right?
B.B.
B.B.
Not on mine.
The striker bashes what could best be describes as a firing pin. The pin bashes the air release valve in the end of the tank to dump air into the rifle.
tt
TT,
That’s correct. And when the tank comes off there should be a small amount of air remaining outside the pin you described. That’s the air I am talking about. You may have a tank whose pin is perfectly sized to not lose air. If so, that’s great. I have never seen one like that, but it sounds like you have one.
B.B.
B.B.
I have one of each kind of tank. S200 & T200 . Both work the same . No pressure remaining after a shot. It all gets dumped into the barrel.
My FWB 800 will have pressure though. It has a reg.
tt
TT,
I spoke too soon. Actually the pin in your tank is not contacted by the striker. The pin bears on a projection in the frame of the gun and gets pushed open as the tank is screwed tight. The striker is on the other side of the valve that sits between the tank and striker.
B.B.
B.B.
Mine no workee that way.
tt
TT,
Okay, it has been years since I saw an S200, so I must have it wrong. I know yours is a T200, but I think they are similar.
B.B.
B.B.
It really makes no difference anyway . What is one shot more or less when you get this many shots anyway.
tt
Happy Presidents’ Day to all my fellow Americans. I view the self-driving car as my car of the future when I am no longer able to drive myself due to physical deterioration that comes with old age. Reflexes, quick decision making, eyesight all deteriorate so either someone drives you to the store or doctor or where ever you want or need to go or you can still rely on yourself. Now we have Cortana, Alexa, Google and Siri to do things for us on the internet so why not, “Hey Google, drive me to the mega Pyramydair Store”? Regarding PCP’s, here’s a more powerful air rifle, less sensitive to hold and no need to cock that spring or gas piston 10 times or so when you’re thinning out the herd of feral soda cans. Of course, the exercise of doing so is excellent for maintaining your upper body strength. I think the PCP is the air rifle/gun of our future whether we want it or not.
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now Happily in GA
Fred, welcome!
I had a friend visit from the DPRoNJ, and we shot some air pistols.
He really liked my Crosman .177 CO2 revolver, so, after he left, I mailed it to him as a present.
Then he called me, and asked why I had sent a “firearm” to the DPRoNJ.
Apparently, CO2 revolvers are considered firearms there…how sad!
You won’t see such things in Georgia; this is a very airgun, firearm, and knife-friendly state.
For example, just a few years ago, our Governor passed sweeping knife legislation.
There is a massive knife show each June up in Atlanta with hundreds of booths and thousands of people.
However, some people would buy a sword cane, and then go over a few blocks into another county
and get arrested for having an illegal weapon. This was very tourist-unfriendly.
Hence, with the stroke of a pen, our Governor made all knife laws null and void,
and instituted ONE law for ALL counties in Georgia.
Basically, anyone can have any folding knife with up to a 5″ blade (even automatics),
and if you have a Concealed Carry permit, then there is no limit on the size of a concealed blade.
Sword canes and the like are also legal.
Plus, we shoot our airguns in the backyard.
And legally bring our CCW pistols to church to prevent evil.
*shrugs*
I wish more states would copy these laws. =>
Enjoy your new freedoms,
dave
Dave
Go Georgia.
I think your governor needs to quietly meet behind closed doors with some other state governors if you know what I mean.
I hear you; Amen to that! =>
Dave,
the way the firearms’ law reads in NJ, anything that propels a bullet or pellet or other metal object via rubber, explosion or air pressure is considered a firearm. They also include sling shots as firearms. It’s a very draconian State as respects 2nd amendment rights.You can only get a concealed carry permit through a judge and then only if you show immediate need such as you have a job that requires one. I’ve been in GA since 2016 and never looked back.
Thanks for your welcome!
Fred formerly of the Democratik Peoples Republik of NJ now happily in GA
“They also include sling shots as firearms.”
OK, Fred, my NJ friend didn’t tell me that; but perhaps he was not aware of it; that’s insane!
Really, I feel sorry for those who must live under such a regime. #_#
I moved from the Tri-State area (CT) to Florida, and then Georgia (transferred to Robins AFB).
Both Florida and Georgia have very common-sense gun laws…thank God…literally. =>
Robbins AFB? You’re a hundred fifty miles South. I’m up here in Cumming, GA – aka the Georgia mountains. I try to go for a bicycle ride several times a week where even the downhills seem to go uphill! Regarding slingshots, the way the bill was written originally, the legislator wanted to outlaw “slung shots”. We know this as a sap or a piece of lead encased in leather that many police used to carry and use with effect to the head of recalcitrant citizens. The individual who was typing the bill never heard of a slung shot and thought the legislator had mis-spelled sling. As these things go, no one ever reads a bill thoroughly and the bill was voted, approved and signed off by the then Governor (whomever that was) and the rest is history. By the way, the law also reads that the weapon in question must be capable of harming a person. That’s why air soft guns and paint ball guns can be sold in NJ without requiring a FID or purchase permit.
Fred formerl of the DPRoNJ now happily in GA
Fred, my apologies!!!!
I never saw the email alert telling me of your reply till today when checking on emails!
Yes, as you noted, most shooters are up on what a “slung shot” is. =>
“As these things go, no one ever reads a bill thoroughly and the bill was voted, approved and signed off by the then Governor (whomever that was) and the rest is history.”
Wow, that’s sad, but thank you for the update. =D
Take care,
dave
BB,
You forgot to mention that the dark side has cookies….amazing cookies.
Just sayin
Tyler
Tyler:
Chocolate chip or White Macadamia Nut cookies?? Or both?
Wm. Schooley
If you have to ask, you aren’t on the right side
Tyler,
Off topic, but the “can I help you” pop up on the PA site is really annoying. I used to be able to X it out, but now it just stays there with no way to make it go away,…. the (entire) time I am surfing any page. Is this something new? Should a pop up blocker fix it? B.B. checked into it and it went away soon after, but now it is back.
Any suggestions are appreciated. I would settle for an X out option after the first pop up.
Thank you,……. Chris
The X to reduce it should still be there, just harder to see on the white background I think. I will pass along to our IT squad and see what they say. I have noticed it more myself recently and I agree, a little annoying.
Tyler,
Now it will not do it. The blue header stays at the bottom left. That is fine. My pop up blocker is on and has been on, by the way. The full pop up with picture of person is what would not go away (just a bit ago) and this weekend.
At any rate, thank you for the quick response and anything that can be done. The full pop staying is definitely a no-go for me. On a displeasure scale of 1-10,… about a 99! 😉
Thanks again,…. Chris
Tyler,
An update,…. there IS an X there, but is (very) light blue on a white background. It works, so no issues. I am not sure if it went away, got lighter in color, or what,….. but no problem now. Sorry to have bothered you if this was all on my end and due to my lack of attention. I recalled it being more obvious before,…. but my “recall” ain’t what it used to be either. 😉
Chris
Mr Gaylord:
As Yoda might say, “Excellent article you write today.”
And so from your experience and contacts in the PCP industry, is it true that by the day after tomorrow we’ll see a price point PCP brought to market that’s been reduced in power to 5 foot pounds, costs $100 for juniors to buy for them selves out of allowance money and be submitted to the necessary committees to be certified as 3P rules compliant? 🙂 🙂
Oh well, we can still hope!
Respectfully,
William Schooley
BB,, I bought a Crosman Challenger 2009 that was supposed to be an upgrade from the standard Challenger because it had a better barrel. I was under the impression that the original dated from a couple years earlier. Is the Challenger a forgotten airgun? Mine was able to win me a few medals at the VA wheelchair games for the several years I competed. It was able to shoot with and beat quite a few Anshultz and FWBs at that level. I am not of Olympic quality,, by a long shot,, but the rifle was,, and is, still more accurate than I am. I thought that it predated the disco,, but would be interested on it’s place in the timeline.
Edlee,
Did the Challenger 2009/PCP predate the Discovery? Not really. When we developed the Discovery, Crosman already had the CO2 Challenger. When they saw what the Disco could do they converted the Challenger to air. So it came out a year or two later. They were talking about making the conversion in the year when they were working on the Disco (they were also talking about the Marauder that year). I think if the Discovery hadn’t happened the Challenger PCP wouldn’t have happened, either.
I certainly have not forgotten about the Challenger. In fact, until very recently I only owned one and wanted to also own an Edge that I now have. The Challenger is a favorite of mine.
B.B.
This is what keeps crossing my mind.
I can only imagine what it would of been like if I had my Hatsan Bullmaster when I was a kid.
Back then I would not of even thought that there was anything dark about a pcp. Matter of fact it would of been a bright side.
Go pcp’s is what I say. Nothing dark about pcp’s to me.
Gunfun1,
That, when you were a kid, could have reeked havoc on bb gun fights.
I leave this, although it is strictly tongue in cheek.
~ken
Ken,
While I never participated in bb gun fights,…. a powerful PCP in the hands of an unsupervised youth (then or now) would not be good (at all). Instruction and supervision early on. Respect for the fact that you are (in fact) firing a projectile,… even it is (only) at 250-300 fps. More than enough to,…..?
Good point,…. for then,.. and now.
Chris
Chris
Back then I got my first .22 rimfire gun and I was 11 years old. And it was even a semi-auto.
And think about this power wise. A average pcp today can make around 60 fpe. Some higher and of course some lower. Then look at a standard velocity long rifle rimfire round. They make a average of around 110 fpe. So almost double the power of what some pcp’s make.
So can you imagine that. A 11 year old kid shooting a 110 fpe rifle that fires semi-auto at that. And mind you we got to run around the farm pretty much were ever we wanted.
Times were a lot different back then than now. A lot different.
Gunfun1,
Many things were different back then. On the whole, I think most (not all) kids had some respect for that firearm, especially kids growing up on the farm (or ranch). Nor do I think most kids would have shot anyone with a pellet shooting air rifle, although I expect some would and some have.
I do believe there is a disconnect for many (or most) when contrasting firearms with airguns. I expect 99% or more who post here understand that less fpe does not mean safe. I shutter to think of shooting someone (or being shot) with a lead pellet from an airgun that produced even 12 fpe.
I have never thought of the fpe of a Red Rider. I was shot with such, and while hardly safe, nothing penetrated and I was never hit in the head area (thankfully).
BTW, I didn’t grow up on the farm but I have cousins who did and I got to shoot more than a bb gun when visiting them.
~ken
Ken
In my opinion I don’t even care for the thought of how air soft guns are used and even paint ball gun.
I was taught that we used our guns on the farm for getting food or eliminating pests. And of course plinking fun. We were not suppose to point a gun at something we were not going to shoot.
And this may sound silly but when we did play war or cowboys and indians we used sticks as our guns. Or sticks as bows with no strings or arrows. In other word it was obvious it wasn’t a real gun or bow and arrow. But that’s how we had to play when we was kids.
Oh and yes we got in some good trouble when my buddy got hit in the eye when we was playing bottle rocket wars. So as it goes I still believe upbringing had a lot to do with it.
My daughter’s are 18 and 21 now and have been shooting since around 7 or so years old. They know gun handling for some time now and much better than some adults I have seen with guns. My oldest daughter would say dad did you see what they guy just did when we would go shoot at other places. Needless to say we have left certian places for just that reason.
Gunfun1,
I can appreciate what you are saying. Air soft and paint ball competitions amount to training, which can be very good or very bad. I don’t know how a person’s brain handles these things, but I have no doubt some learning occurs, whether intended or not. They are shooting at other human beings. I wonder if any law enforcement or military units conduct such competitions. At any rate, I can see how competing with air soft and paint ball can potentially translate into shooting someone with a fire arm (which happens often enough, anyway). Regardless, it matters whether there is someone to set and enforce rules, as you obviously did when you were growing up.
Psycho-Cybernetics, by Maxwell Maltz, was published in 1960. His premise is that our brains accept mental exercises and training as actual training. Again, as you have alluded to, that training can be good or it can be bad as it generalizes across situations.
I haven’t participated in air soft or paint ball competitions so I don’t know how doing so with any frequency would affect me.
Lastly, I can appreciate leaving a situation that must be deemed unsafe.
~ken
Ken
Yep.
Chris USA,
I definitely agree about the supervision. I don’t know how many people (of any age) ended up needing medical attention due to bb or pellet wounds, but I know the number is much higher than it should be.
~ken
Ken, (as an add on)
As I recall,…. (way) back,…. I do not think that I ever got into trouble for shooting my 1 year younger brother with a bb gun. As I recall,… he never had a bb gun. Birds,…. that I DO remember. The black ones. (Only) the black ones! They were never close enough to “lob” a bb at for the prized “kill shot”. What I (do) remember is something along the lines of me going after my little brother with a garden hoe. As I recall,…. such activity was (strongly) discouraged back “in the day”. At least,.. that is what my butt remembers,……… 😉
FYI: Country upbringing,…. us kids were “forced labor” 😉 for garden “maintenance”,…. (endless weeding, back breaking picking,… RE-picking,… cause you ALWAYS missed some). So,….. garden tools,.. their use and their ability to “remove” things were learned early on. As I recall,… that was my “misguided” train of thought at the moment of my little brothers impending doom. 😉
LOL,….. Chris (Of course,… we were reminded too of how many much less fortunate kids were starving in “Africa” and why we should be happy to work in the garden and,.. of course,.. why we should eat ALL of our green beans.)
Looking back,…. all in all,… not a bad youth.
Chris USA,
How funny. I just wrote of visiting my cousins “on the farm”. I had fun with them and got to shoot their pellet rifles and .22’s. I almost wrote that I envied them. I left that off because it would only be right to then mention the parts I didn’t envy so much. I didn’t so much grow up in the country or the city; it was somewhere in between, I suppose “small town” is correct. And “all in all” I agree, not a bad youth.
~ken
Ken
You know what as a kid we never had bb gun wars. I will say we did have bottle rocket wars. And my one buddy did get his eye messed up with a bottle rocket. He can still see but it looks like he has a cat eye.
And what we did as kids was shoot at dirt clods in the fields or bad tomatoes we would pick off the plants with the garden work we had do on the farm and other vegetables also. We would also put the little plastic soldiers out in places and shoot at them.
So yep if I had the semi-auto Bullmaster back then it would of been a blast. And heck what am I saying. It’s a blast now. 🙂
Gunfun1,
I did participate in a few bb gun wars; that was bad enough although we were fortunate that no one got more that a little bruising; it could have been, especially if there had been head shots.
I have seen bottle rocket wars and roman candle wars; never wanted to participate.
I think we mostly shot at tin cans.
Although I did get to work in the garden, I lived in a small town so the scale is smaller than on the farm.
I agree, the Bullmaster and numerous others are a blast.
~ken
Ken
I just replied above about air soft and such. Read that comment please.
I agree with B.B.’s point about PCP’s being an elitist pastime, at one time. I got ‘hooked’ in the 80’s by Bob Beemans glossy airgun catalogs. This was before the www. It was a clique of sorts, a subset of more mainstream gun owners, I’d say. The elitism displayed by well heeled nerds is also a fetish?As far as the “dark side” The thing that can get lost is the benefit of having the significant design constraignt of a self contained powerplant like a springer. It leaves what is essential. Sort of like a simple single shot rifle. Why try to mod a traditional breakbarrel into something else? leave it alone, start with a clean sheet of paper. You wouldn’t turn your Remington falling block into a semiauto? I think there is a real benefit to use the advances of PCP technology at the entry level.
With a few mods, the inexpensive Diana Bandit is easy to pump up, powerfull, accurate. I think the Crosman pistols are nicer, tho.
Best, Rob
See item 6 in this interesting document; remember – just because you’re paranoid does not mean there isn’t someone or something out there trying to get you, your rights, or both.
FawltyManuel,
How right you are!
~ken
B.B.,
As you were, I was a customer of Robert Beeman in the 70’s. I already had my Sheridan Blue Streak. I became a victim of Dr. Beeman’s advertising acumen. He described in some detail why it was better to have air being compressed and heated at the time of the shot, rather than having air released and expanding from a reservoir.
He discussed the quiet spring piston rifles versus the loud multi-pump, co2 or other guns holding gas in a reservoir. Of course, integrated sound suppressors has changed that somewhat and the really large caliber rifles are probably not louder than their firearm counterparts.
Of course, his bread and butter came from imported adult air guns and most were piston driven.
I purchase my first break barrel, an El Gamo, based on that information.
Even so, I would have loved to have gotten a Yewha 3-B Dynamite.
/blog/2005/12/air-shotguns-part-5-the-yewha/
I knew many years ago about co2 powered tranquilizer rifles, but this is the first I learned there was PCP model.
I suppose all I really want for Christmas is a Benjamin multi pump with a nice steel barrel.
Thank you for another interesting report.
~ken
B.B.,
The Dark Side has always been brighter for me!
When I was a young boy i owned Daisy, Benjamin, Sheridan and even a Crosman or three.
Then when I was thirteen (1962) my family traveled back to my birthplace and through some luck I got a tour by the Senior Docent of the musical & armor sections of the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna, Austria. I got to see amazing works of art in steel, wood, silver gold and brass; both musical and weapons. The item that has stayed with me to this day was getting to hold (with conservator’s gloves on) a repeating precharged air rifle of indescribable beauty and the craftsmanship of Girardoni himself or more likely one of his Lehrling (apprentices) stupendous work.
I was shooting in competition at the time with various rifles but got a really fantastic break when I got my first Hämmerli AG, Single Shot Cadet followed by Cadet Mehrlader (Repeater) 80 shot magazine (lead balls) only. Then I joined the US Navy and only shot firearms, cannon, missiles and rockets for a while! My very next air rifle was a .177 Hämmerli 450 overlever Match Grade Rifle followed quickly by a hand pump and a Hämmerli AR50 my very first 200 Bar PCP in the very early 1990’s. Since that time I guess I have been a member of the elitist Dark side of Airgunning!
I own a bottle gun that is a Repeater from the early-mid 1990’s that came with four different caliber barrels as well as some other interesting capabilities. Most airgunners of that time didn’t treat a PCP owner as something special; it was much more derisive than that. I think that the POOR treatment of early (late actually) adopters of the Dark Side is what caused the circling of the PNEUMATIC wagons and failure to share anything more with the POGO STICK SHOOTERS! I carry on to this day owning among the very first Discovery, Marauder and my beloved MEDIUM and BIG BORE Quackenbush DAQ MASTERPIECES.
That’s my take on the early days.
All you (way late) PCP adopters realize you stand on the shoulders of some very brave Modern PCP Era Airgunners!
shootski
Shootski
I really enjoy museums. A first hand look into the past of the most treasured items known to mankind.
I was fortunate to be able to go to the NYC Museum of Natural History many times and got to see the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when a Fast Frigate I was deployed on in the Navy went up the Sacramento River. Scared the heck out of a lone old fisherman in his row boat when we arrived.
I had a friend who worked at the Smithsonian and one day I met one of his coworkers who happened to be stationed at a remote NAF Airbase in England right after I left it. Well one thing led to another and I was invited to a grand tour of Silver Hill. The name given to the many warehouses containing all the Smithsonian’s aircraft and a few extra items seeking preservation that are not on display. Like an automatic horse shoe fabricating machine Who knew? And the original Star Wars space ship.
Having worked in Aviation my whole life I recognized and understood all the effort that went into all those creations and I was absolutely awestruck. Most interesting was the variety of aircraft guns. Many were huge. Many aircraft still had bullet holes in them from battle engagements. Some I never knew existed.
I always planned to revisit many alone when the kids were all grown but after visiting the San Diego Aerospace Museum I was kind of disappointed. School kids all aver the place, a mad house. I would really like to see the NRA Museum one day.
I think I have some airguns that may be museum items some day. They seem to come and go fast these days.
Bob M,
Same here! Since a little kid I realized that museums contain mankind’s real history without the revisionist if hand of historians…if we just looked beyond the display. Places like Silver Hill are especially fantastic because they contain the stuff not yet in museum displays and the people working on them typically know more REAL history of the project and item than any Phd. I walked around a corner on my first visit and there was the Enola Gay fusalage and engines! One pannel had areas that they were testing finishes on to find out how well they dealt with being touched so of course I touched her!! I also ran into an old RF-8 cockpit not yet in work at Silver Hill (now on display at Udvar Hazy) that I had logged hours in! The same thing happened at the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola where I found a T-28C that I had flown both as a Student and later as Flight Instructor; never imagined I would have objects from my life showing up as display pieces in museums.
Do go and see the NRA’s Firearm Museum you will not be disappointed! I have spent hours walking and looking at the many fantastic displays. One that is also a surprise is the museum in the BATF building near the Pentagon. One final place that you should visit is the boneyard at Davis Monthan.
shootski
“There is no dark side of the moon… actually it’s all pretty dark.” (As I remember the Pink Floyd line)
As adult airgunners, I think that many of our friends in the firearm community treated us like people who were not in full command of our senses. “Whaddya want with that thing? For that kind of money, you could have bought a real gun!”
I am lucky enough to still own the first airgun that I ever had – a Slavia 618 that I received for Christmas when I was 10! The second – a Blue Streak that I bought when I was 14. And the third – a HyScore 815 pistol (Diana 5), when I was 16. I still shoot them all and enjoy them (almost) as much as the first day that I got them.
To me, it’s all about having fun shooting. Whether it’s working on my offhand position on paper, or dealing with those pesky soda cans that seem to encroach on my existence, there is something relaxing and ‘centering’ about being able to shoot in the basement, or the back yard, without having to drive 25 minutes to the range.
If I do buy a PCP, I expect it to be as much fun to shoot as my other airguns, or firearms, only slightly different.
To quote (or maybe misquote) a phrase a target shooter I used to hang around with: “May all your 9’s be 10’s, your 10’s be X’s, and you have no held rounds.”
BB,
I have yet to turn to the “Dark Side” myself, but am getting psyched up for it. Hopefully one welcome consequence of the increasing popularity and affordability of PCPs will be to see lousy magnum springers consigned to the dustbin of history. You know the type: junk from the Far East and Near East that won’t hit a dinner plate at 25 yards, but the unsuspecting buy on the weight of the impressive fps claims on the packaging.
The sooner the disease of springer magnumitis is cured, the sooner quality, mild mannered, highly accurate sub 12 ft-lb springers will again get the attention they deserve. To paraphrase another line from Star Wars, “Your father’s HW35e, Luke. Not as random or as clumsy as a big box store, 1600fps, Turkish mega-magnum springer; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.” 🙂
Bob,
I AM your PCP, Luke!
B.B.
“The sooner the disease of springer magnumitis is cured, the sooner quality,
mild mannered, highly accurate sub 12 ft-lb springers will again get the attention they deserve.”
Amen, Bob! I long to see those days! =>
BB,
The comments of the previous blog post were also carried over! I was surprised the 99 comments appearing.
Siraniko
PS Section Fill coupling standardization 1st paragraph 3rd sentence, “The Foster quick-disconnect fitting has taken over the market to the extent that any company not yet on board is loosing (losing) sales.”
Siraniko,
Fixed it. Thanks,
BB
Chris U,
So glad you are up to posting. It is refreshing to hear from you, Kate and I are at the cabin, spent the last two days working on the tractors. Looks like the dozer is working but still have hydraulic issues with the skiploader.
Spent two days wrenching, Hope tomorrow will get better.
Don
I was just scanning through the blog last night and did not even notice the dates.
Wishing Chris the best.
Don
B.B.,
“Those who still refer to PCPs as the “Dark Side” are now officially dinosaurs.”
I am Dinosaur!
As I said in my comment above in 2019 the Dark Side has always been brighter!
It will always be that way until the SNOBBISH Pogo Stick Shooters give some love!
“But the humans will give no love”
DARK SIDERS lament:
“You see I’ve been through the desert (DARK SIDE)
On a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert, you can remember your name
‘Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain”
apologies to America!
shootski
Shootski
Still a Dinosaur too.
B.B
I think that the first two paragraphs, carried here from last week’s post, along with the 2019 comments, could be left out. By the way, on your phrase “It just takes thought”, we might add “and cheap (Chinese) labour”…
Once again a great reading.
Bill,
I am afraid you may be right, although I did buy a Maximus for $145. I do not think I would want anything cheaper though. These old gals here at RRHFWA have spoiled me to quality manufacturing.
I was a bit surprised at the number of comments and was happily reading along till I ran into an imposter. Turned out to be me of course after I read the date..
I wonder if American Airgunner boosted sales of PCP’s?
I guess the future of PCP’s is looking good. My daughters still think I’m ‘playing’ with kids toy guns. OK some actually are but they just happen to be in the airgun collection. They remain “In the dark” about them there PCP’s and hopefully so will all the grabbers.
B.B.
I thought Theoben made the first “modern PCP”?
I wish all the PP PCP people would go back to firearms. They have brought their ammo shortages over to pellet land.
How about a review of the Leshy 2? Very inovative and the only PCP that tempts me over to the Darkside.
-Y
Yogi,
You really need to start with a Maximus and a hand pump. Seriously.
That’s where friend GF1 started FM on the road to the Not-Really-Dark Side. Liking it and also liking the HW95 “sproinger,” so FM is enjoying the best of both worlds – PCP and springers. Where to next? The choices are endless, only limited by budgetary concerns. Springtime for FM! And PCPs too.
FM
Glad you like the not so dark side. I have always thought that all along. Really they are so simple or as how anything goes you can get deep into them. I just call them the “Dark Side” well because that’s what we all called them.
I mean really if we want to think about it it’s as simple as hooking up a air hose and filling the gun up and shoot till its empty and see what pressures the gun performed the best at. Then start repeating those full and empty pressures that give the best shots.
And what is more simple then a air container built into the gun that gets pressurized. Then a valve releases air to the barrel when the gun is fired.
As it goes things that we don’t know about yet or understand yet are usually not easy to accept. But I believe once a person does try the dark side they will be surprised how easy they are to shoot. I always explained to people its like holding a light cue stick for pool and the gun just sets there when you shoot. They are just so smooth.
Anyway enough rambling for now. Time to start thinking about lunch pretty soon. And I need to try to get some trigger time in on the new Marauder pistol I got yesterday (second one now over the years). Darn Dark Side Anyway. 🙂
Yogi,
The EDgun Leshiy 2 seems to be a very nice package. It is small and light weight with a lot of power and features.
If you don’t need a semi-automatic with all that power, you might look at a marauder pistol. It is accurate, and has a great 2 stage adjustable trigger. Although it is not regulated, it has a fairly flat shot curve, it is light weight and can be fitted with a folding AR stock. The Prod with an AR stock and Donnyfl Tanto is 1/3 the cost of the Leshiy 2. It works great out of the box for me (after trigger adjustment to my liking), but if you want more power, more air, regulator, etc, there’s a mod for that. – Don
Don,
If I am going to go Dark I’m going Deep Dark!
I have a D LP-8 magnum, a D 6G, and a D 10M.
I got pistols covered.
-Y
Yogi,
Alright . Now I get it. Sounds like fun. 🙂 Don
Hi, my name is RidgeRunner. I am a dinosaur.
BB
Count me in as a dinosaur too. The dark side is an attractive forbidden fruit handle.
Not to worry that owning PCP’s makes your springers boring. No airguns are.
Deck
Gracious no! I usually shoot my sproingers more! There are just times that I like to stretch the legs out there.
BB-
Quite the surprise this am to see over 100 comments this early. Was there something in the air? Phase of the moon? Weather? Oh yeah, reading for comprehension. I remember now. All from 2019. I really was hoping fellow Buckeye, Chris from USA, was back.
Where does AirSoft and paintball fit in the timeline of PCP standardization and supply chain. Seems like those activities were major drivers.
Paco,
Airsoft and paintball are two almost entirely unrelated things, though airsoft does now cross over into BB guns. Both were developed for different reasons.
Here is a little of the airsoft history:
/blog/2014/05/airsoft-primer-part-3/
/blog/2011/02/why-airsoft-guns/
BB
BB
Now there’s is nowhere to make a new comment at the bottom. Only way to make a comment now is if you reply to somebody.
Hmm. Now it’s back at the bottom.
GF1,m
You just have to scroll down far enough. 😉
BB
BB
I know, I know. But I did. It went from the last comment to the category section for stuff on the PA site and then the section with the latest comments.
And remember I’m on a so called smart phone. So I might
see something different on my phone than on a desk top or laptop.
Anyway on with the blog. 🙂
BB-
I reread those articles and I didn’t see anything about HPA airsoft guns. That was what I was referring to. Seems like paintball and airsoft have the numbers that PCPs lack?
B.B.,
I have and shoot mostly springers, but I do own and on rare occasion shoot multi-pump and single-stroke pneumatics. I bought a Benjamin Marauder when they had been out for only six months or so, and I have not shot it since it was perhaps two months old. So I have shot it perhaps 30 times and not since 2010. At that time I bought a Hill hand pump, the consensus best then.
For a few years my brother-in-law (not an airgunner) asked me to bring it over, but each time I explained to him that it was too much work to fill it. He would then say, every time, “Leave the bicycle pump home, those are silly. We’ll use my shop compressor.” I’d then ask, knowing the answer, does it fill up to 3000 psi? He’d look at me with a puzzled look and say, “No. But neither does a bicycle pump.” I’d then explain that the Hill pump worked like a bicycle pump but was engineered for much greater pressures and required incredible strength to use. End of discussion, every time.
The world doesn’t need cheaper PCPs or more affordable electric or gasoline pumps. The world needs a low psi PCP. Make a PCP that can be filled with the shop compressors half of us already have.
Michael
Michael
100%
I have been all for a low pressure pcp. Benji-Don’s low psi air gun experiments have been very interesting.
You can get an airgun to work at or above shop compressor pressures, you just need 3 things, a large enough plenum, a large enough bore diameter, and a long enough barrel.
(Think potato gun made from PVC pipe)
I have launched AA sized batteries at dangerous speeds with only 150psi.
Below is a couple of interesting videos.
They can get a baseball over Mach 1 with only 300 psi.
And go up from there pressure wise..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqidD7kVnxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAOCiNhQW2Y
Bravo
Oh I know. Remember I work at a machine shop. Back when I was a kid when I started working there we would make air guns out of the air nozzles that we would blow our parts off that we machined. We would attach a steel barrel around a foot long and about a 1/8th inch inside diameter. We would save the the steel balls from bearings we replaced on the machines.
Needless to say they was pretty accurate and would dent a old galvanized steel trash can at about 20 yards. Oh and they broke out light bulbs pretty easy too. Of course that was a accident. 😉 And that’s how we ended up getting in trouble at work. No more air guns made after that. Or should I say. Allowed. 🙂
Michael,
From the Dark Sider:
The consumer/residential shop compressor is never going to fill the bill for a PCP even if you keep it connected to the air supply; which had better include a big tank. The issue of practical barrel length is also a consideration even for bench rest shooters there comes a limit. You need at least CO2 level pressure to shoot effectively beyond 10 Meters so 800 PSI (5516 Kilopascal [kPa]) is about the minimum. The question of shot count is in the typical airguners requirements and that drives on board pressures to some degree.
As far as your Marauder and Hill pump why don’t you get a pair of steel SCUBA tanks (cylinders) and cascade them for lots more fills than is possible from one cylinder. Better still, for ease of carry, get some extended life SCBA or regular CF (carbon fiber) 4,500PSI and cascade those. Cascading will lower your trips to the fill station dramatically! You already know you need a Dive Shop, paintball shop or fire station that will do your fills to the higher pressure. Last but not least one of the small portable airgun hpa compressors will fill and refill your Marauder more times than you will probably shoot it in a lifetime.
You are missing out on some fun shooting with your Marauder!
shootski
shootski,
“Cascading will lower your trips to the fill station dramatically! ”
That’s good, because the nearest fill station to me is likely a few hundred miles away. In this part of the country there is almost no diving, and paintball facilities (mostly 3000 psi) usually close after being in business for a few months. Fire departments nearby won’t fill large tanks at 4500 psi due to wear and tear on what they view as life-saving equipment.
I’ve looked into renting several full 6000 psi tanks at a local welding shop and cascading them in my garage, but it is very expensive and might void my homeowner’s insurance.
As B.B. has written in this blog in the past, if the hammer falls slowly enough, it can be done.
Tim MacMurray invented the USFT, which operates from 1300 – 1650 psi and produces field target velocities for dozens of shots. That’s getting closer anyway.
/blog/2007/08/usft-rifle-part-1/
Michael
Michael,
bummer about the dive shops and fire stations. I thought people would dive the lakes and quarries!
shootski
shootski,
There are a couple dive shops on Lake Michigan, but they go out of business (season is only 3 – 4 months) by the time they’re on google. ;^(
Michael
BB, The ‘Dark Side’ started when Adobe invented Photoshop, not when Lewis and Clark went for a walk to the west coast, IMHO. As far Georgia’s gun laws go, that’s fine, it’s their civil rights laws that are suspect. And, since when can a 16 year old boy afford an AR15? Elitist pastime? We’re way past that now. I support the right to keep and bear arms forever, some training and teaching should be mandatory . You can double post that if want too. Thank you BB.
Be carefull out there.
R
B.B., this is a great update; but just for fun, it needs a new toon. 🙂
Dave,
That is cool! 🙂
BB
🙂
I quite like the idea of a pre-charged pneumatic. Shame that the self-contained pneumatic power and pellet units, like the old Brocock cartridges, didn’t take off.
Is / was there such a thing as a CO2 powerlet combined pellet cartridge?
Hi,
Not that I recall. But there was a device to use a 12-gram cartridge to refill a bulk-fill gun.
BB
HIHIHI, I was just reading some of B.B.’s old blogs about those cartridges and other, similar inventions.
/blog/2006/11/nothing-new-under-the-sun-whats-the-problem-with-primer-powered-pellets/
Thanks Roamin Greco. The link leads to an interesting article too.
I had been interested in firearm cartridge alternatives for airguns, ie cartridges that contain both propellant and projectile.
Compressed air inside a cartridge with a pellet on top seems to be the only system I could find information on, ie the ‘Brocock air cartridge’ ( /blog/2006/01/brocock-air-cartridges/ ).
But it did make me wonder if, instead of compressed air, anybody had succeeded using a liquid gas like carbon dioxide as the propellant.
Happily it is still possible for me to buy what is called an ‘LEP compressed air revolver’ (and a hand pump and the compressed air cartridges). 🙂
hihihi,
Mr. Hollowpoint has posted some youtube videos of him using helium. Here’s one in which he shoots a custom 20 mm (.80 caliober) air rifle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAjZ8GYdqx8
Michael
Thanks Michael, I watched that video: what a canon!
I wonder how helium would perform in a precharged pneumatic cartridge (ie the Brocock cartridge).
hihihi,
A couple of reasons the Brocock cartridge was outlawed in the UK is it could be pressurized to give beyond 12 FPE. It could also be modified into a firearm cartridge.
There have been several attempts to modernize the Brocock cartridge over the years, but it is possible for one of the seals to leak, turning the cartridge into a missle. Not good.
As for CO2, it is a large molecule compared to the mixture of air, which is mostly nitrogen. It has a slower expansion rate, hence the lower power output. The helium atom is much smaller than the nitrogen atom. It expands faster than nitrogen, which in turn will produce higher power levels.
That is your science lesson for the day. Your homework is to find out why airgunners do not use hydrogen, which is the smallest atom, in their PCPs.
RidgeRunner,
Smaller atoms in the gas is like finer black powders. And as for hydrogen, all I can offer is, “Oh, the humanity!” =8^0
Michael
Thanks for the science lesson RidgeRunner.
And the history lesson too. I actually thought that the Brocock system was outlawed for political reasons.
Interesting to consider molecule sizes in relation to expansion rates and energy potentials.
Homework: easy, they don’t wanna get wet. 🙂
Admittedly, I know nothing about PCPs except in theory and what I have read in this blog. I know just a smidgen more about CO2, but not much more. I’m thinking of an idea where I remove the bolt on my Rem. 700 bolt action hunting rifle and replace it with a new bolt that essentially is the heart of an airgun, with the compressed air or co2, valve etc. Triggered by the rifle’s own trigger. One would take spent brass, pop out the primer leaving a hole, pop in a correct sized pellet or slug in the front, and when the bolt closes, a seal on the face of the replacement bolt would seal the back of the case in the chamber. Air would blow through the empty primer hole and blow the pellet out of the barrel!!
Advantages: same trigger, same stock, same scope, same balance, same reloading motions, but basement and hearing safe. Can use back issues of deer hunting magazines for targets. Can it be done? If the bolt was too small to hold enough air / CO2, perhaps the source would need to be a bottle hooked up to a high pressure hose attached to the back of the bolt, but something that might fit in a sling or backpack. For some reason, this idea keeps coming back to me. My deer gun is a .25-06, so I’m thinking .25 pellets would work. Similarly for .30 cal, which would be a good portion of the market with all the .308 and .30-06, .300 Savage, etc. bolt rifles out there.
Roamin Greco,
If only .25 caliber meant .250 or .251 instead of the .257 or .243 in the firearm World you would be closer. The other issue is twist rate that isn’t usually optimal. The bolt volume available alone might be enough for one or two shots with CO2 probably not with HPA before needing a refill. A tether system would obviously require some way to plumb it to the air bolt temporarily.
Not impossible but would it sell?
shootski
RG,
My DAQ Shot Pistol uses .410 Brass Hulls that Dennis mkes. I looked at MAGTECH’s .410 Brass Hulls with a primer pocket. I would need to bore out the base of the Hull to allow for the same ID for the airflow to the bottom of the Wad! I would also need to cut down the MAGTECH Hulls from 2.45″ to 1 8″ to fit the air pistols chamber. I suspect you would run into similar issues with any cross deck of firearm items to airgun use.
shootski