by B.B. Pelletier
Hatsan’s new 125TH breakbarrel is a large, powerful spring-piston air rifle.
Today, I’ll report on the Hatsan 125TH’s accuracy using open sights. It was a day of learning the rifle, and a lot was discovered. In the next report, I’ll mount the scope that comes with the rifle and test it again. But today it’s open sights all the way. When you read tomorrow’s report, you’ll understand how appropriate this test is.
The 125TH has a post-and-bead sight with TruGlo fiberoptic inserts. Fiberoptics are a poor choice for precision shooting because they cover too much of the target to aim precisely; but when you shoot outdoors on a bright day, they’re quick to acquire. Out to 25 yards, they’re adequate; but never choose them for long-range shooting or for hunting in the woods.
The rear notch on the 125TH is too small for the size of the front bead — hence I found it difficult to see any light on either side of the post when sighting. I also discovered that the barrel is drooping quite a lot; because even with the rear sight adjusted as high as it will go, I was still shooting below the aim point at 25 yards. That won’t get any better at longer distances, either. So, I think a scope will be better if I can get it to accommodate the droop as much as I need.
Beeman Kodiaks
The first pellet I tested for accuracy was the Beeman Kodiak. I selected them because I knew they wouldn’t break the sound barrier, and I was shooting inside the house. The distance was 25 yards, and I used a 10-meter pistol target. The hold was at 6 o’clock on the bull. The first group was the best one of the day. It won’t look that good to you, but I learned a lot from it.
Ten Beeman Kodiaks groups in this 1.272-inch group at 25 meters. Notice that the group is taller than it is wide. That’s important.
The group was 1.272 inches between centers, but it was taller than it was wide. The width is only 0.956 inches. This a characteristic that holds throughout this session.
Pellets that didn’t work
I tried JSB Exact 8.4-grain domes that went supersonic, but they were not grouping well. And Air Arms domes that also weigh 8.4 grains are equally bad. Both pellets broke the sound barrier and gave quite a crack as they went downrange.
The absolute worst pellet of all was the H&N Rabbit Magnum II. For starters, it’s designed with straight walls, so you can’t load it into the breech of a breakbarrel. You have to have something to press it in because your thumb isn’t hard enough to push it to engrave the rifling on the sides of the pellet. But I knew that going in. The first shot was about four inches higher on the target than any other pellet, and I hoped that I had found the miracle pellet for this rifle. Alas, the second pellet dropped about a foot (12 inches) at 25 yards, went through the reflector of my spotlight and popped the light bulb! Needless to say, I stopped shooting those pellets at that point.
Crosman Premier heavies
I figured the 10.5-grain Crosman Premier heavy pellet might do well, so I gave it a try. They grouped in 2.111 inches overall, but side-to-side the group was just 1.34 inches. Again, the group was taller than wide. I’m tempted to try this pellet again when the rifle is scoped.
Wrong hold?
I tried a different hold with the Kodiaks that were the most accurate pellet to this point. This time the group measured 1.71 inches between centers, but the width was only 1.152 inches. Again, taller than wide.
This second group of Kodiaks were shot using a different artillery hold, but it’s also taller than it is wide.
So, the hold didn’t improve things, but it’s now clear that the open sights are causing the problem. I’m not getting enough precision in the vertical orientation, which is why all the groups are significantly taller than they are wide. That means using a scope should show a marked improvement.
How the rifle feels
Whoever suggested trying to pull up on the trigger blade — I can’t do it because the thumbhole stock forces my hand to pull the trigger straight back. And the trigger is too heavy for good work. While there’s no creep in the second stage, there’s considerable travel that can be felt. I have the trigger adjusted as light as it will go, so this is a detractor.
The SAS works very well. I can feel some vibration with the shot, but it dies quickly, which must be attributed to the SAS.
The rifle recoils heavily. But it also rests very well on the flat of the hand, so it isn’t difficult to shoot. The best hold point is with the off hand touching the front of the triggerguard.
If the trigger were lighter, this rifle would be a pleasure to shoot. I’m getting used to the cocking effort needed, and I can’t wait to see how the rifle does with a scope.
A good day!
You might feel from these targets that I had a bad day, but with what I learned about the rifle I think I had a very good day. Next time, I’ll know two pellets to try going into the test, and I’ll also know the best hold to use. Until I did the pellet velocity versus accuracy test a couple weeks ago, I wouldn’t have known that it’s harmonics and not velocity that opens these groups. Let’s see what I can do with that newfound knowledge.
What is it?
Can any reader identify the tool in the photo below, and tell us what is it used for? It will play a part in an upcoming blog.
What is it?
The tools seems to be used to compress or at least hold a spring but it’s kinda hard to tellwithout any size reference point, the threaded rod could be the size of a pencil or the size of a cigar…
So I’ll take a guess that it’s to compress and “set” a spring or it’s used to shorten a replacement spring.
Do I win something? A tour of the legendary Gaylord estate and gun collection plus a backstage meet and greet with the family cats?
J-F
J_F,
Not bad for a Canadian! Right the first time.
B.B.
I’m really struggling to remain optimistic about the Hatsan 125th. The SAS apparently works very well but how it works is still a mystery to me.
I’m not an airgun tinkerer but will guess that the allthread with nuts at the end and washers in the middle is a home made device to set a spring.
Since this is an airgun tool I can hear Vince laughing at my guess now.
kevin
Hey Kevin,
the SAS ist simply a piece of dampening rubber-like compound around the pin that attaches the rifle’s system to the stock. Have a look here: http://www.hatsan.com.tr/images/airguns_photo/sas_detay.jpg
It is comparable to a washing machine that has a rubber mat between its bottom and the floor to fight vibrations and keep it from moving.
I would like to like this rifle also, but my experience is to be suspicious because the fixes like the SAS look to me to like a solution to a problem that will create another after some use. I wonder how the guns harmonics will be affected when the rubber bushing in the SAS ages. Looks like another thing to fuss over. The idea of a .177 cal springer that achieves very high velocity and accuracy, is an oxymoron.
Mel,
Thanks for the link to a diagram of the SAS system used in this Hatsan. I understand the theory.
Don’t know what the reality is though. In your diagram there’s a “dampening rubber-like compound around the pin (forestock bolt?) that attaches the rifle’s system (the action?) to the stock.” I assume that one or both of the trigger guard screws/bolts secures the stock in the rear as is traditional. If this is true, then by using your washing machine analogy this is like setting a washing machine on “a rubber mat between its bottom and the floor to fight vibrations and keep it from moving” and then securing the washing machine to the wall with a large bolt. Since the washing machine if firmly secured at one point what good will the rubber mat do at a second point?
What am I missing?
kevin
Good question – I bet the rear screw is also fixes in one of these white rubber rings.
Frankly, I don’t really trust this system to live forever. It works with subwoofers and washing machines, but these don’t have to send a pellet to a tiny target 30 yards away….
Kevin,
You are also right, but J-F beat you to the punch.
As for the Hatsan, I, too, am struggling to like the rifle. I see the potential, but was hoping for tighter groups with the open sights. Too bad they are fiberoptics!
B.B.
B.B.,
Yes, J-F and I were typing at the same time late last night. Just a lucky guess on my part. I’ve never set a spring.
Considering the fiber optic sights on this hatsan you shot some good groups. At 25 yards I assume that front sight covers at least a half inch of target area. Suppose fiber optic sights have a place in the shooting world but they don’t belong in the same County of precision shooting.
kevin
Kevin,
At 25 yards the front sight covers about two full inches of target. Of course this doesn’t matter when I use a 6 o’clock hold, except that I can’t see the sides of the front sight in the rear notch, so aiming with these sights is more like a guess.
For pop cans on a sunny day they are great. For serious shooting fiberoptics are useless.
B.B.
B.B.,
Two inches?!! Good grief.
With rare exception all the new introductions of airguns seem to be incorporating design changes that are driven by marketing departments rather than shooters. I’m not picking on hatsan.
How about introducing a new springer that has an accurate barrel, decent adjustable trigger, wood stock and an option for a set of adjustable iron sights (front globe that accepts inserts too please).
The Bronco sells. The marketing departments can take full credit for calling this new introduction a RETRO REVELATION.
kevin
Kevin,
That was what the Bronco was all about. I hate to say it, but there is almost no competition in the airgun industry today and it is easy to “develop” great new airguns when you give some thought to what you’re doing.
Are there other “great” ideas? Heck yes, but I can’t find enough airgun manufacturers who are willing to build them. Crosman has been the only one, so far.
I’m having fairly good results after mounting a Mendoza peep on my .177 95. Not sure if I will retrofit a custom front sight until I experiment with some smaller aperatures ( waiting on a 7/32″ x 40tpi die). I do know I’m not interested in the 1250 fps powerplant, the Hatsan 1,000 fps is enough cocking effort for me.
Mark
I have found that the Lyman aperature inserts fit into my Mendoza receiver sight bought in 2009. I have also modified the fiber optic front sight assemblies on some guns to mount a Lyman 17A front sight. You cut a dovetail into the ramp then use epoxy to secure it, and fill in any goofs you may have made milling in the dovetail. You could probably do the same thing with some styles of muzzle breaks. Just mount the front sight onthe break/handle. On the Bronco ,if you cannot get the factory shims ,you can cut them from plastic containers, and trim to fit.
I’ll go along with the other comments. My guess is that it would be used to compress and measure a spring. It relates to measuring a spring to find a replacement for a power plant where parts are no longer available.
– Looks like the threaded rod I used as an “axle” for my homemade spinner targets… not that I think that’s what it really is!
Question: What are the H&N Rabbit Magnums for? I’ve never heard of ANYONE getting even minimally acceptable accuracy out of them but H&N has a good reputation and I’ve found that their other pellets work very well for me. The sub Brown-Bess accuracy of the Rabbit Magnums is therefore a bit of a mystery to me.
If you look at a H&N tin, they have two little indicators on the lid. One for accuracy, and one for distance. From what I can tell so far, they are pretty close to being right.
twotalon
Nowhere,
Whoever “invented” the Rabbit Magnums is not an airgunner, nor has he ever tried to shoot his product. This is what happens when somebody has a job instead of a profession.
B.B.
I find it a bit sad how Hatsan screwed up this rifle. First, the stock: It is exclusively for right-handed shooters, for no reasons other than its looks. It would have been a snap to make it ambidextrous. Second, its trigger is a close copy of the Tx200’s excellent device, and yet they made it too heavy. Third, it is another huge overpowered rifle that is solely made to satisfy the guys who rather want to miss their target with 100fpe, instead of punching the bullseye with 3 fpe, or getting the squirrel with 12fpe.
I think you’re right. I own 2 Hatsans, a cheap old springer and a detuned PCP.
The springer isn’t buzzy but is still a bit harsh and crude.
The PCP is awesome, it’s detuned for our Canadian market so I get a LOT of shot per fill and it’s not too loud and is backyard friendly.
J-F
Isn’t that your tool for scragging springs? That would be my guess…..and I think this rifle is all wrong for .177.I wish they had sent you a .22 or .25 version.
I think that shock absorber is the cause of the groups being more vertical.I doubt it is velocity variation causing it.I think the material is more compressed horizontally than vertically…..and that is “shaping” the harmonics.The good news,if I’m correct,is that is some proof that it works,and just needs adjusting to even out the difference.
Frank,
Well that’s an interesting thought! I will ponder that to see if there is a way to test it.
B.B.
Frank,
J-F guessed the purpose of the tool first, but you were the first person to mention the term scragging. Good memory!
B.B.
I gave the blog a quick read early (for me) this morning……then went straight to the reply.I felt pretty dumb once I read the comments after I posted.LOL! Familiar feeling too 🙂
Maybe shooting a group of 10 when the scope is mounted,but over the chrony too…..may “proove” the theory? If the shots that open the group vertically aren’t on the upper and lower velocity extremes it would at least suggest another source.
It just seems to me that the vertical section of the rubber bushing,compaired to the horizontal section……has much less material to absorb vibration.All this is conjecture though,because I can not visualize the behavior of the fasteners where they make contact with the stock (i.e. is there compression of the bushing,and is it variable??)
I have to agree with Mel. I am sorely disappointed with what they have done with the trigger. At one point I was seriously considering a Dominator, but with a trigger pull like that… Maybe this review can be pointed out to them and they will fix it (yea right, just like Gamo has).
RidgeRunner,
Actually, Gamo HAS changed their trigger this year. I hope to get a new rifle soon to test it. At the SHOT Show they had a sample trigger that felt very smooth, but I want to see one under s realistic load.
B.B.
Not having taken one apart, but would the trigger pull of this particular type benifit from lighter springs?
RidgeRunner,
Maybe, but probably not. Just as with the powerplant, the strength of the springs have little to do with the operation of the trigger. It’s more a matter of the proper geometry of the levers, and I guess Hatsan just didn’t get it right. Possibly the trigger could be improved with longer adjustment screws to change the geometry, bit that remains to be seen.
B.B.
The tool is used for setting “new” air gun springs.
Bob,
You got it!
B.B.
This question was sent to the wrong address, so I have reposted it here for Jerry.
Hello, Tom,
Having just come from your website, I am AMAZED at the prodigious output you create, and its overall quality.
Your commentary has affected my interest in the airgun hobby since I became interested in 2008.
I own these air rifles:
BAM B-26 .22 cal (tuned by Mike Melick)
CZ Slavia 634 .177 cal (tuned by Gene Curtis)
Walther LGR Match
My brother in SC became quite interested in airguns (pistol and rifle) several years before me, and he became friends with Bob Werner and Gene Curtis. I have learned a good bit from you, and from those sources. I believe I have some nice rifles, and now, I am adding one more.
After much consideration, I have today called PA and ordered a walnut stocked Air Arms TX200 MKIII.
One more interesting connection. My neighbor (who lived in the same block till last year) is David Enoch. I was speaking to David about my desire for a TX200, and he told me to call his brother Bryan, who had one he might sell or trade. I was considering a swap for my Walther, as I really don’t do any 10M shooting. The LGR was a gift from my brother (spare you the long story), and I admire it, but shoot it sparingly.
Anyway, Bryan tells me that he has a TX200 MKII, which once belonged to you, and that it was tuned and had a custom trigger job. We spoke about the rifle, and Bryan gave me quite a sales pitch.
However, the more I read (especially on your blog posts), the more I felt I should just order a new one. I don’t foresee getting a PCP. This is quite likely to be the “ultimate” air rifle for me. I live on a greenbelt (city property) with a creek and thicket on the other side. I can set up targets at up to about 50 yds, shoot right off my back porch. The nearest house is 130 yds distant, and I feel pretty safe shooting carefully in my own private “range”.
So, I’m mainly a plinker and target puncher. We have informal gatherings with the “North Texas Airgun Militia”, and usually spend most of a Saturday shooting each others guns, swapping, and trying to show off. Great fun. We would love to have you join us some time. I plan to go the Little Rock show in April, perhaps I will be able to meet you there.
Now, sir, I know this might be an all too common request, but I lean on your generous nature for a fellow Texan…
I ordered a Leapers/UTG 4-16×44 scope. I am in doubt about that selection. Not sure if UTG is really as good as the normal Leapers, and not sure if such a big/heavy scope is a good choice for my type of shooting – mostly casual plinking and target shooting done informally at 40 yds or less. Link:
/product/utg-4-16×44-ao-swat-accushot-rifle-scope-ez-tap-illuminated-mil-dot?a=3900
If you would be kind enough to suggest a new scope from Pyramid (or affirm the one I have ordered) I would appreciate it greatly. I have a budge of about $200, but would like to save a few bucks for pellets…
regards,
Jerry
Jerry,
Okay, lots of things to address. First, Leapers owns the UTG brand, so when you say UTG, you are saying Leapers. There is no difference in quality.
Second, the scope you have selected is a fine one. Very good optics and quality. Unless you can think of a compelling reason not to buy it, I would say you have found an ideal scope for a TX 200.
Third, my old TX 200 Mark II was tuned by several people, but Ken Reeves of Ohio tuned it last. It has a beautiful tune and shoots like a house afire, plus the dark walnut stock is beautiful. The reason I sold it is my current TX 200 shoots just as nice and I didn’t want to start a collection of TX 200s. There is nothing wrong with that rifle, as far as I know.
Finally, I hope you can come out to the airgun show in Malvern (no longer Little Rock) this year. I would like to meet you. But there is a big bore shoot near Sulpher Springs next weekend. Did you know that? David plans to come, so maybe you could ride with him. You would get a chance to see some of the greatest big bore airguns that exist, plus meet some of the legends in our hobby like Larry Hannusch, Dennis Quackenbush, Ed Schultz, John McCaslin and others. There will be plenty of smallbore shooting there, as well.
Hope to see you soon,
B.B.
Jerry
You have selected a very fine air rifle! The one I ordered has bluing that looks like black chrome. I have an embarrassing wealth of nice airguns, and this one is my favorite. I curse myself for not ordering the walnut version. I would have gladly paid the premium if I could have chosen the stock I would be getting. But the beech version I have is nothing to sneeze at. It glows.
The TX (I call it Tex) is not a 10 meter rifle, but it has shot the best group out of all my rifles at 10 meters. I saved the target, but Mrs Slinging Lead reorganized the room where it was kept, so perhaps archeologists will find it in 100 years or so.
Experiment with pellets and you will eventually find airgun nirvana. Also, I would suggest buying some rubber O rings from Home Depot and put them in the slots on the cocking lever that seem to be designed for them. This will protect the finish on the barrel shroud.
As for airgun nirvanas, B.B. promised nymphs and I’m still waiting.
Matt61
Matt,
It’s been like summer here in Texas and the nymphs and midges have certainly been out in force. I’ll scrape a few off the windshield for you. 😉
B.B.
Hi BB,
I drove up the Sacramento Valley last Sunday and saw a sign advertising an eating establishment. The sign said “only 6 more bug splats until you reach ….” So I can contribute some windshield scrapings if you need more!
Thanks, BB. I will report back how it works, my concern was mainly weight, but did not have reports telling me UTG was as good as any Leapers. Hope to see you this spring, maybe next week…
B.B. JERRY’S COMMENT ABOUT HIS SLAVIA 634 MOTIVATED ME TO ASK THIS QUESTION. WHAT IS THE ACCURACY OF YOUR 631 ? I HAVE A 634 AND THE ACCURACY RANGES FROM UNDER ONE HALF INCH TO THREE INCHES. I REMEMBER THAT YOU SAID YOUR 631 WAS SQUIRRELY. I ASSUME THAT IT WAS DIFFICULT TO SHOOT. I NOTICED ON MY 634 WITH A SYNTHETIC STOCK THAT THE FORE END IS SLANTED. I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS CAUSING THE VERTICAL SHIFT. YOUR COMMENTS WILL BE APPRECIATED.
BUBBA8,
First, please turn off the caps key.
I reported the accuracy of my 631 in this report:
/blog/2011/12/new-bkl-mount-adjusts-for-barrel-droop-part-2/
Just after that was published several people agreed that they were getting about the same accuracy with their 631s and 634s.
A slanted forearm should not cause the groups to open as long as the action is properly bedded. But I would check to be sure the stock screws are all tight.
I would then look at the pellets you’re using. Only certain pellets will be accurate in your gun.
Next I would consider that, because it is a breakbarrel, your rifle is harder to shoot accurately. Therefore your artillery hold has to be perfect. You can’t rest the forearm on a sandbag or accuracy will suffer.
B.B.
Ken, my CZ-634 is very accurate and consistent. I shot a nickel sized 10 shot group at 30 yds (front rest) just the other day. The best pellet I have found is the JSB Exact 8.4 grain, but it does OK with RWS Superdome and a few others. This gun was tuned when I got it, and has never been touched since I have had it. I’d guess it has had 2000 pellets in three years. I just measured a very consistent 735 FPS last week.
Bubba8, my Slavia 634 was tuned by Gene Curtis. I don’t believe it required anything extensive. My brother has one like it. I’ve had it three years, shot a few thousand times. I use mostly the JSP 8.4 gr pellets.
Both my brother and I have had no issues, and get great accuracy. I shoot quite a bit off a front rest and hold lightly, but have it tight to my cheek, but I do not find it to be very sensitive to hold.
I know another shooter in my informal group with a 634, he swears by his too. I did run across this commentary thread, with the obilgatory slander comments about the Slavia mixed with some possible wisdom.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1198106317/Is+it+really+a+Crappia+634-
Everybody,
I ASKED for the 125TH to be sent in .177 caliber because I wanted to test it that way. Hatsan has so many new products (new for the U.S. market, anyway) that I will be testing a boatload of others this year. This is just the first one.
Regarding the overpower situation — yes, it definitely is. But I also wanted to see if this rifle was going to be as rough as the other overbore magnums I’ve tested and I don’t think it is. It is better-behaved.
I am approaching this test like a person who knew nothing about airguns and trying to discover this one as it reveals itself to me — rather than coming in with a basketful of preconceived notions.
B.B.
Is it the pivot bolt from a poorly made chinese springer? A very limited abacus? A very light barbell? Alligator tooth floss? An airgun, made by the CIA, that is disguised as a threaded rod, two washers and two nuts? A device to get rust and grease stains on Edith’s fine linens?
I pieced together something similar from found parts to press headset bearings into the steer-tube of bicycles. It works pretty danged well, and being free, costs a good bit less than the alternative.
http://www.jensonusa.com/!AaOxDgryYkMQEPCRn5uFnQ!/Park-HHP-2-Headset-Press
This is not to disparage the manufacturer, or the retailer. Park Tools and Jenson USA are both excellent companies to do business with. My point is that a little ingenuity goes a long way.
I love cliffhangers!
SL,
Ah! Yes, but the headset press has two cushioned handles! You forgot to mention that!
B.B.
I know what the tool is, and JF got it right off the bat, but was wondering if it could be re-purposed. Perhaps the manufacturers that over market rabbit pellets , fiber optic open sights, 1600fps .177 cal airguns, and other dubious designs, would benifit from a “headset” like this. Might keep the good advice they are given from going out the other side of their heads. Needs rubber washers though to be OSHA compliant.
A slight incremental decrease in hand discomfort is well worth $140, versus the small piece of foam pipe insulation that could be wrapped around any wrench. This discourse has shown me that I am clearly in the wrong industry.
If I was smart, I would have started a bank, and then cashed in for my shrewd decisions, and then accepted bailouts from the taxpayers for my bad decisions. You just can’t lose that way. Dang these ethics!
TH magazine articles too! BB, is there a hobby or activity that you have NOT written about?!? I built a pi detector out of a kit I got from Gary in Canada. Even wound my own coils following his instructions. Works well!
/Dave
/Dave,
I have always been curious about pulse-induction detectors. I know they are supposed to go very deep and not be bothered by salt water or mineralization (if I remember correctly), but when I was in the hobby they couldn’t discriminate. So they were great from relic hunters and gold seekers, but not so good for coinshooting.
So how do you like yours?
B.B.
BB,
It pretty sensitive and does find about anything that conducts electricity, but unfortunately it won’t discriminate so it’s not great for coin shooting unless you like to dig up pull tabs too… It’s mostly for relics, finding plumbing and the like, and I’d guess it’ll work for nuggets, but I haven’t found any yet…. I’m still experimenting with various coils, so I haven’t used it as much as I’d like, burns it’s been a fun project!
/Dave
Everyone,
I just got news from Pyramyd AIR that Bill Sanders, former director of Air Arms, passed away last night.
Bill made Air Arms into the company it is today. He made many contributions that set the bar very high, and he will be sorely missed.
Edith
Bill was the guy who made Air Arms build the 10-meter youth rifle for our NRA Sporter-class competition. Then the NRA closed ranks and excluded it because it cost too much. He never regretted his moves, though.
He really loved his airguns. Especially the TX 200, which I hope they continue to build as they have all along.
B.B.
Yeow, that is frightening to think that the TX200 might not always be around.
Matt61
<blink> <blink>
Isn’t the rear sight mounted to the base-block of the barrel? I could understand a “droop” complaint if it were on the receiver and the barrel lockup was a bit slow.
Or is “droop”, in this instance, defining a mis-alignment of the barrel to the base-block itself?
Wulfraed,
The barrel is mounted in the base block. It’s pressed right into it. Your point is well made, but nevertheless the gun does shoot low and I can see that the barrel is angled downward from the spring tube.
B.B.
I know what you mean. If the barrel was straight but misaligned because the bore in the base block was off you’d think that the droop would have affected the sight-line almost as much and in the same direction as the bore-line. If that were so, droop wouldn’t affect the open sights that much. And if the droop was from the lockup itself, it wouldn’t affect the POA/POI relationship at all.
I’d be curious if the barrel was bent. BB, if you sight down the bore with the breech open, does it look straight or is it bowed?
Vince,
It looks straight to me.
B.B.
“slow” was supposed to be “low”, but I think everyone got my intent.
If the barrel to base-block alignment is straight, and the sights are on the base-block, excessive low-shooting would be something I’d classify as “poorly regulated sight selection” — though spring gun recoil may make it difficult to figure out what is needed… On a firearm, where a faster round exits the barrel before recoil lifts it upwards, a shorter front sight might be called for (conversely, some of those heavy slow moving rounds may require a front sight that is tall enough that the barrel really is pointing below the point of aim to allow for recoil lift).
BB,
I hope you are going to use that threaded rod to set a lighter spring and detune this monster a little. With my 36-2, much of the original spring’s power apparently went toward creating buck and snort. This one is likely the same way. I believe that is intentional “marketing” preying on the ignorant. Recoil in firearms denotes kinetic energy in the projectile, but the weight of a pellet is so infinitesimal that similar recoil is almost imperceptible in a small pellet rifle. However, add a little unnecessary preload and more spring power than necessary so that the piston slams to a stop, and you’ve got a “magnum” that the manly men will shoot as long as it doesn’t tear itself to pieces. I think the SAS is a clever bit of misdirection.
On the other hand, this one does produce the stated power, and will probably shoot under an inch at 25 yards with a scope, so it isn’t the worst springer you have ever tested.
BG_Farmer,
No, I wasn’t going to take this rifle apart. But I am going to show how that tool is used and what it can do.
I still like the 125TH. If I can get 3/4-inch groups at 25 yards I’ll be happy with a rifle of this power.
And no, I don’t think the SAS is misdirection. I’ve shot enough magnum springers to know how they normally feel. This one feels better to me. A gas spring would do the same think. I guess.
About the fiberoptic sights, I guess you’re right about people using them when their eyesight goes bad. I never considered that. I just thought those folks would go to a dot or a scope, but I guess fiberoptics would give them an option.
B.B.
BB,
Scopes and dot sights aren’t an option, nor even peeps in most cases — only “open”. I know of at least one match that even outlaws the fiber optics, but that is on the hard-core side of thing. I wasn’t trying to contradict your view on FO sights (which I find myself agreeing with for the most part), but I’ve found their use interesting and the ability of people to adapt to and even excel under less than ideal situations, as always, fascinating.
I’m obviously never going to compete in such a match then… Not with rifles, at least… My eyesight just can’t handle notch rear sights anymore. Pistols, maybe — though the 10″ sight radius of target guns is pushing it.
As for fiber optic… The only set I have are the optional ones for the AirForce stuff. Normally I’d slide the scope on the Condor, but I thought I’d be able to set the open sights for closer range work. Problem: the red dot front is too small relative to the overly bright rear green dots. Especially since yellow-green is the eye’s most responsive part of the color spectrum.
I’m jiggered if I know what that tool is for. A 25 yard indoor range! The difficulty with this rifle is that with the choices available, anything else has just about no chance.
Duskwight, surely you imitate some other designs in your work rather than creating something completely new. If you are using established principles, I don’t see any reason why the gun would have catastrophic failure.
PeteZ, I seem to remember your bet and perhaps even the $200 figure mentioned, but by you, not by me. 🙂 Hope you get better soon.
Kenholmz, sorry to hear about your wife’s difficulties. You might want to check to make sure that she didn’t have a stroke.
J-F, interesting reference about Afghanistan. I believe the only person to successfully conquer the place was Alexander the Great who didn’t have any modern technology. I actually came across a documentary that claims there is an enclave of people from the region speaking a version of ancient Greek, so they definitely stayed. Also, I think it very interesting that the the Gurkha Kukri knife with its distinctive blade shape is almost identical to the Kopis sword design of the ancient Greeks. That would be quite the coincidence if those two designs evolved separately in two completely different regions that just happened to be linked by Alexander the Great.
Otherwise, I think the lesson of Afghanistan is that it is very difficult to conquer AND that there is nothing worth there to fight for by a conquering power.
Matt61
Matt,
I doubt Alexander did any significant fighting in Afghanistan. The Greek settlement was, I believe, a colony planted to be a cultural beachhead, possibly a place to put (“reward”) unruly veterans. Afghanistan (along with most of what Alexander “conquered”, including parts of India) had long been under the rule of the Achaemenid Persians, by defeating whom Alexander became “great”. I think you would be amazed at the extent and sophistication of the Persian Empire (esp. under Cyrus and Darius), not just in terms of technology but policy, both in war and peace, and one of Alexander’s best moves was to integrate and more or less continue that empire rather than try to destroy it. His successors were nowhere near as wise and quickly lost control of their pieces of it.
BB,
I’ve seen a different perspective on the fiber optic sights lately. Some of the people shooting ML’er matches are using them to great effect on 25 and 50 yard targets. One lady (yes, it does happen) shot a 50-4x at 25 yards with them recently — that would be well under an inch (more like 1/2″ c-t-c), and, of course, it was offhand. The folks using them tend to be those that can’t see normal sights, so we are not talking about superhuman eyesight! I suspect that having no good alternative and some practice with those sights is the key. One question I have for you is: why does light in the middle matter on these when you have two “illuminated” dots on the rear sight, which should center the front sight just as well? Also, I think that holding on the center might work better than 6 o’clock with these sights.
Hi All, the good news is my wife is home. Although there is a lack of certainty because of lack of evidence, it seems most likely she suffered a vascular spasm. That’s not pleasant but it also isn’t a stroke. She is doing well and pleased to be home.
B.B., I appreciate the added explanation about the fiber optic sights. When I can I hope to add experiential learning to this to better understand. As an aside, I will really miss being able to drive up for the LASSO; so close yet so far away.
Ken
Ken,
That’s good news on your wife. And I understand how you are feeling by missing the LASSO shoot. Two years ago I missed the Malvern airgun show and I was bummed! Things will get better and this will be a memory before long.
B.B.
The Quattro trigger seems to be shipped to the US with adjustment screws that are too short to give any real adjustment, swap them out for ones with a bit more length and it will improve a LOT.
Hatsan Shooter,
Thanks for the suggestion. I had figured that out already, but I like to test guns the way the customer gets them. Not everybody can make modifications to their rifle and I think it’s important to acknowledge how the gun is as it comes from the box.
B.B.
B.B.,
I have the Hatsan125 (Walther Talon Magnum) in the .25 caliber and have put about 300 rounds through it. It just keeps getting better!!
1- the trigger is much better now than when just out of the box and I have not adjusted it. It is not as good as my Marauder trigger, but certainly better than many airguns I have shot.
2- at 20 yards resting my elbow on a desk, I can get 1/2 ” groups repeatedly. It does have the Nitro-Piston, the Quarto trigger, and the SAS system. This is using the H&N Baracuda
31.02 grain dome pellets averaging 649 fps.
3- the 27.8 grain domed Benjamin .25 caliber pellets averaged 790 fps, close to the advertised 800 fps.
4- this gun is heavy but I have found a nylon sling that loops around the barrel and stock that helps with the weight and aiming.
5- the scope is a UTG 3-12×44 range estimating Accushot swat scope with a side-wheel that is perfect for the distance this gun is effective.
6- this gun is quickly becoming my “go to” gun for the pesky backyard raccoons.
This is a great power house for only $299 with the Nitro-Piston @ Pyramyd AIR.
1SuperTenere
Just a clarification: the scope that came with the Walther Talon Magnum is a cheap Optima scope that I upgraded to the UTG. An offset mount helped with eye relief.
Another rant about this rifle: Have a look at the trigger’s shape. These curved triggers are put on some rifles with a reason – to allow the shooter to pull the trigger straight towards his hand when a rifle stock has a grip that extends backwards. For example, the Air Veturi Bronco would profit from such a trigger, just as most rifles with traditional hunting stocks.
Only that this Hatsan has a thumbhole stock with a grip extending downwards. This, it would need a trigger blade that extends downwards as well. This is what happens when airgun install a nice-looking feature without grasping the concept behind.