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Ammo Welcome, fellow Jedi!

Welcome, fellow Jedi!

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

  • Back in the day
  • Parallax
  • Twist rate and rifling styles
  • Velocity versus accuracy
  • Oh, how far we have come!

I was going to show you a brand new spotting scope today, but something came up that I want to address. I don’t always respond to your comments these days — there are simply too many of them for me to cover. But I at least scan all of them and I read many of them.

Yesterday it dawned on me as I was reading the comments — many of you are ready to take your test to become full-fledged Jedi knights! A few may even go on to become Jedi masters. Well done, my enthusiastic Padawan learners!

Whenever I write about a technical subject I cringe, thinking of all the questions it will bring. That used to be bad, because I had to answer each any every question myself. But that isn’t the case anymore. I have been following conversations between Bulldawg76, GunFun1 and ChrisUSA and I am amazed at the level of expertise being displayed. I remember when each of them first started commenting on the blog, and they don’t seem like the same people anymore.

Back in the day

I remember in 2005 when this blog began, I fielded the typical level of technical questions. That went on for many years. I still get those questions from new readers, and I want to encourage them to write with all their questions because who else are you going to call? But I now see there is an advanced group of readers on the blog who can take the next steps in complexity.


Over the past few days reader Fido3030 has been asking questions about parallax. At first I thought his questions would be basic, but he soon got into an advanced conversation with GunFun1. I stepped in to clarify a couple things, but that conversation was what woke me up to the high level of understanding on this blog.

Twist rate and rifling styles

A couple weeks ago I read a different conversation about twist rates and pellet stability. The readers involved understood a lot more than my readers used to. One of them even referred to my 13-part twist rate report where I tested three different rifling twist rates and their affects on velocity and accuracy at differing distances.

Velocity versus accuracy

Then there was recently a new reader who said that a pellet gets destabilized when it goes supersonic. That used to be the prevailing wisdom, and there still might be a kernel of truth to it, but my 11-part Pellet velocity versus accuracy test that ended in 2011 disproved that assumption. Vibration and not velocity is what affects accuracy the most.

Oh, how far we have come!

I remember years ago having a long conversation with a reader about the two aiming points a scope sight gives you because of the curved trajectory of the falling pellet. He did not like that and asked me question after question until finally, he asked if it was possible to have the scope intersect the trajectory at just a single point. His rationale was that at all other distances — both closer and farther away — his pellet would be below the aim point.

Yes, he was right about that, but his reasoning was similar to the man who wants to drive his car on two wheels to save the rubber on the other two!

Strength in numbers

Tens of thousands of you readers have registered, but behind the scenes are a great many more who have not yet registered. I think it is not unreasonable to think that we may have several times as many who are not registered, but read this blog faithfully every day.

And numbers is the reason I don’t like to answer questions privately. I would rather share the answer with the readers, partly to spread the knowledge but also because my readers often know things I don’t. Having them look at the questions is a good way to ensure a quality answer.

This is now a mature blog with an unparalleled reader base. I will continue to write about the basics, because we get new readers all the time, but you veterans who are now also Jedi can expect some surprises, too!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

105 thoughts on “Welcome, fellow Jedi!”

  1. BB
    Really don’t know what to say. And you know me I always got something to say. But I will say thanks for your comments. I do appreciate that.

    But it’s not just me. I got to thank both Buldawg and Chris USA. We have had some deep conversations about things and results and how stuff works. Well and how it tends not to work how we would like. I think we just got in our blood to make something work better than it does.

    Know I have learned a bunch of stuff throughout time and had some good conversations with some of the older readers that use to comment everyday. TwoTalon and Wulfraed always brought some good conversations to the table.

    And maybe I should say that it sounds like I question something hat is brought up. The reason I question it is because I want to learn and mostly I hope somebody else learns something that’s being talked about.

    And really I don’t deserve any credit for anything. I guess I always see something that could be better when I look at. It’s what is in front of me at that time and I look for logical answers. I think that’s why Buldawg and Chris USA always comes into the equation. They are both always looking for the best. I think them to and me try to push the limits of something especially if someone says that ain’t happening.

    I’m like that. And really it’s a curse. I get myself in trouble all the time. Well at work anyway when I bring up a point about how something is. But really I don’t get in trouble but the people at work know I will push a idea. So when they bring that idea to me they know I tell it like it is. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

    And last but not least. I wish more readers would comment and share their thoughts when we get talking back and forth. I know some people don’t like to step into somebody else’s conversations. The way I see it the more the better. Everybody has a idea. Say it. All we will do is learn from it one way or the other.

    And I’ll quit rambling now. But thanks BB for recognizing us. But as I said before there’s more pieces to the puzzle than me. Hope I don’t sound like I’m a know it all. I just like when people learn.

  2. BB
    It was just over two years ago that I found this blog and began following it and made several friends with you being one of the most important in my learning and driving force to dive in head first into what has been more than just a hobby. It has been a savior of sorts for my health and sanity. Since my health failed in late 2013 I was left searching for something to allow me to use my hands and mind like I did in my 45 year career of motor vehicle repair and development.

    Not being able to physically do the manual labor on vehicles left me depressed and far to much time on my hands with nothing to occupy it.

    I found my old 1400 in the closet and that lit a spark that with yours and GF1s help put me on a path that has given me a new lease on life so to speak. I have always been one to crave all the knowledge I can find and absorb on whatever projects I take on and now that I have found just how much more there is to air guns than I had first thought I can not get enough. I am never satisfied with just factory stock performance since everything can always be improved with the right information available.

    You have provided a wealth of that info and the solid foundation for all of us to grow and learn from each other weakness’s and strength’s and the place to come to gather and do that in leaps and bounds. I will always gladly share any and all discoveries and learned info with those here freely and as openly as possible.

    I will say you have given me a new direction for my life and helped to bring me back from a dark time in my life and for that I will say

    Thank You


    • BD
      Without getting into a big discussion. 🙂 I have learned alot with our conversations here on the blog and through or emails and texts, well and phone calls.

      Probably would not of thought about some of the things we have talked about if I wouldn’t of met you.

      One thing that stands out is that we talk about stuff and have our own ideas but we put our heads together and come up with something good. And with no arguing. I wonder if people think that when we are debating a subject. It’s not by all means arguing. It’s exchanging info that can make a difference. You know I have to say thanks to you for what we have accomplished.

      • GF1
        I feel the same way as I have learned more than I can remember from you in the two plus years we have been communicating with each other thru the various forms of media and phone conversations. You have to remind me at times of something we have discussed since I am not as sharp I used to be LOL

        I know you have definitely made me think and look at all aspects of our sport/hobby in a different way and helped me grow and improve in my quest for being the best I can be as well as have the best guns I can have to enjoy.

        I consider our conversations to be at most debates not arguments in that we have our own ideas on how thing should /could work and use our years of varied backgrounds and experiences to pool our thoughts for the best solution and approach to solve the goals we are after. It is always better to collaborate with friends that can discuss in depth subjects with a common goal of mutual respect and admiration for what each of us have to bring to the table.

        I have to thank you as well for all you have taught me over the years also and only hope that one day in the future we can get together and enjoy those experiences side by side, hopefully in the near future.

        Chris has helped as well even as a newcomer to the ranks he has had some ideas that made us take a second look so its not always necessary to have a lot of years involved in something to see things differently and have ideas that can be used and expanded on to help all in the long run.


        • BD
          That’s right about Chris USA.

          I think the big thing is we look at things with logic in mind and common sense.

          Just because your new to something don’t mean you can’t be good at it. I know from talking to you and Chris that you both have always been fast to pick up on stuff. I have always been the same.

          Just glad we are talking in a place where we all can see and learn.

          • GF1
            Yes on all accounts and I to am glad that we have a central place we can gather and discuss and learn together and BB is the root of that evil and deserves all the credit even if he will not accept it since if not for him we would never have been put together to grow with each other.

            So whether you want it or not BB many thanks to you for what you have created for us all.


            • BD
              Yep and as I said in the past. More and more pieces of the puzzle will keep appearing.

              Got a feeling alot more pieces will show as time passes and for along time to come at that.

              And air gunning will be a big picture in the future. No doubt in my mind.

              • GF1
                I believe you are right about air gunning being big in the future especially if the firearm laws go the way the liberals are pushing for them to end up.

                I bought a Benjamin 397 over the memorial weekend and got it yesterday and was very disappointed in it looks and performance, it made a lot of scraping noise pumping and was not accurate at 20 yards with the open sights due to the new powder coating or whatever black coating they use that made the sights very hard to see as compared to the older brass black coatings of the early ones. I am sorry to say that it is going back as I am not happy with it at all.

                That is why I would like to see Crosman build a multi pump gun based on the Mrod platform which I believe would be quite easy to do and keep the same trigger and repeater breech, shrouds and barrels. Basically just install a check valve in the front of the current valves and modify the air tube to have a long stroke pump arm and large diameter piston assy in the reservoir tube so it could be capable of being sold in all three caliber it is now and would shoot 25 caliber pellets at a decent velocity. It could even have the gauge block integrated into the valves nose so you would have an indication of the pressure you are creating in the valve to judge the power level each shot would have at a given numbers of pumps,

                I think it would sell as good if not better then the Mrods since it would be all self contained. Anyone else that feels the same way please chime in so that Crosman will see the interest level in building such a gun and the number of sales it could involve for them in the ever expanding and challenging market for the air gun enthusiasts dollars.


                • BD
                  Here was my response to when you mentioned you were sending the 397 back.

                  “It was a cool design for the time. But I think the world is ready for a more advanced pump gun. Would love to see a long stroke and big diameter tube like even the Marauder. Then have a similar breech that will accept a rotary magazine or single shot tray like the Marauder. Then have the barrel baffled and shrouded. Offer it in .177, .22 and .25 caliber. Heck maybe even a big bore pumper like a .30 caliber could work with a long pum stroke and big tube diameter. I think that would be a heck of a pumper to have. Wouldn’t care if they charged $400 for it even. Well cheaper would be better. But I think that would be a cool pumper for Crosman to make. Now I guess we need to bring that up on the blog today and maybe Crosman will hear about it.

                  Yep go ahead and mention on BB’s blog today. And on the GTA for that fact. Just mention we was talking about the 397 you just got and it was time for a modern pumper. It could be biult exactly on the Marauder platform. Same trigger even. Would just need a different valve and a pump mechanism. We do need to talk about it on the blog today. But for sure mention why it is time for something new. I’ll chime in.”

                  So yep would be cool if it happens.

                  • GF1 & BD76

                    Just wanted to drop in and say how much I agree with what’s been said. The debates between you two are invaluable. It’s almost like a mini blog at times. Folks can really absorb the info and the discussion makes for a good resource. Good work just by being yourselves. 😉

                    • PH

                      And you have been commenting for a short time. Don’t know how long you been reading the blog. But I do know I have read some interesting comments you have made. So thanks for your comments too. 🙂

                • BD76

                  I hadn’t realized how long the comments had gotten today. I’m hopping on here so Ill know you will see what was attached to GF1s reply a few replies down. Not bragging just thanking. 😉

                    • Punchin Holes
                      Sorry for the late reply but I think my sleep patterns are finally correcting there self as I was out like a light at 8 pm yesterday and slept all night. Finally.

                      Thanks for the vote of confidence for GF1 and myself but as you say we are just being ourselves and throwing ideas at each other to see if we are on the same page or if there is something one of us has missed or not thought out fully. We started these debates almost from the start when I first found the blog and started asking questions about the new guns I bought or things I had issues with or discovered.

                      GF1 was very forthcoming and from that we have developed a close friendship and respect for each other and the experiences that our life’s backgrounds has taught us and have used it as an advantage to both learn and gain more knowledge together. We have also bought and sold guns and part between us so that we have an even better respect for what each of us are capable of and the willingness to share all we can with the both of us as well as anyone who wants to know also.

                      That is what’s so great about this blog in that pretty much nothing is off limits and can be discussed openly and freely between all who care to participate.

                      Did you read the post between us about the need/wants for a new high powered multi pump gun based on a marauder platform with it being basically identical to a marauder only be a pump gun instead of a PCP. Keeping all the best of the marauder parts integrated in a MSP gun in all three calibers. If you want one and would buy it if it was built please let it be known here and on any other forums you visit as well so Crosman will heart it loud and clear.

                      If they build it I will buy it.


                • BD
                  There was no place to respond below when you was replying to Punchin Holes.

                  But yes I agree. The word does need to be spread that Crosman should biuld a modern pumper off of the Marauder rifle platform.

                  It would be a premium pumper. The power would be there. The trigger would be one of the best out there for s pumper. And it would for sure have to be the winner as the quietest from the factory pumper. And a repeater at that.

                  If Crosman don’t biuld this gun they do have a problem with whoever is running their marketing department. If this gun we are talking about doesn’t get biult I will be very disappointed in Crosman.

                  And if they snooze they loose. Look at all the different types of guns Umarex is putting out. If Crosman doesn’t biuld it I bet Umarex would.

                  Come on Crosman are you listening!

                  • GF1
                    I sure do hope they are reading and listening to what their customers want as I would be one of the first in line to buy a marauder based pumper for sure.

                    It would be even nicer of a gun if they left it just as is other than extending the valve nose to hold the check valve as well as the gauge so you could see the pressure you built up in the valve and also keep the hammer spring and stroke adjustments so you could adjust it to be capable of pumping up ten pumps and get 2 to 3 shots out of it at a low velocity for the 10 pumps or turn it fully to be a full dump at ten pumps for full power shots.

                    I bet it would be possible with the slightly over 1″ id tube bore and the long stroke it would have with the stock reservoir tube to create at least 1000 to possibly even 1500 psi valve pressures at 10 pumps so it could be tuned to get 3 500 psi shots or one 1500 psi shot for various power levels in one gun.

                    I sure do hope they listen as you say if they don’t Umarex or another company will.


                    • BD
                      Couldn’t you imagine having a pumper that was designed after the Mrod when you was a kid.

                      I could imagine it.

                  • GF1
                    Boy do I ever wish I had a access to a Mrod based pumper as a kid since I believe there would be far more coon skin caps made back then and maybe I could have got that elusive buckskin colored coon that alluded my 1400 for over ten years.

                    With the Mrod based pumper it would have been far more accurate and had the power to reach out farther to touch him as well.

                    Please Crosman build it and they will come and buy it.


                    • BD
                      I said this before and I’ll say it again.

                      Just as you said. Kind of like the baseball movie. “Feild of Dreams”

                      “Biuld it. They will come”

                      And don’t know about you. But back when I was a kid and I got my 392 all my buddies freaked out about the power it made compared to their 880’s and the 760’s. We rotated shooting each other’s guns so everybody got a chance to shoot my Benji. Including me!

                      But yep if the Mrod based pumper was available back then and in .30 caliber. Me and my buddies would of been in heaven.

                  • GF1
                    It was the same with my friends and myself since I had the 1400 and they had the 760s and 880s so I was top dog as far a power was concerned and we did rotate guns at times but not that much as it was not long we all had shotguns and 22LRs also.

                    A 30 cal or even the 25 cal Mrod pumper back then would have been cool as all but think about it you could likely not find ammo very easy for it as 177 and 22s were about it as far as pellets went and then it was either daisy or crosman brands at that.

                    I guess if they made the gun then they would have ammo available for it as well.


                    • BD
                      I’m up early too. Getting ready to shoot my .25 Mrod to get some groups out at a 100 yards for me and Chris USA little friendly best group at a 100 yards before the weekend is over competition.

                      But yep was just dreaming about what it would of been like if I had the Marauder based pumper back then. Guess I forgot to include the pellets in the dream too. 🙂

  3. B.B.,

    Thank You for the mention. Most of all, thank you to you for assembling the vast treasure chest of knowledge that lays before us today. Dig in past the articles and onto the comments and therein lies the real treasure and gems.

    Those comments,.. the “gems”,.. are the collective knowledge of people from all over the world. Each one seemingly with their own particular “niche” and specialty. I too echo the comment that,.. I wish more readers would post, share their personal likes and interest and ask more questions. We all learn from each other and you B.B.,.. have given us all the platform and forum to do just that. On topic, off topic, “way” off topic,…..it’s all good here.

    I echo what Gunfun1 and Buldawg76 have already said. I think the 3 of us share that need to always make things better. To never leave well enough alone and to always try to push the limits, on whatever it happens to be at that moment. A curse and a blessing at the same time. But,.. in that,… I have learned so much, so fast,.. that growth can not help but happen.

    If anyone here deserves a big thank you, besides you B.B.,… it would be Gunfun1 and Buldawg76 who for some reason have stuck with me through all my adventures, and…, misadventures. “Took Me Under Wing” so to speak. For that,….. Thanks Guys. You 2 are a good reminder,.. a “check” if you will,.. on how much I still have yet to learn.

    I only came here in the Winter of 14/15. Yes,.. I have come along way in pretty short order,.. in retrospect. I am not sure if I am worthy of any title, mythical or otherwise,.. but if anything I ask or share helps anyone else,.. well then,.. that is all that really matters.

    Finally,….. “Come on” all you readers that read and never post, comment or ask questions. You will not find a better place,.. or an easier place to do it.

    Thanks again B.B.,….. Chris

    • Chris USA
      Pretty much everything applies to you also that I just said to Buldawg in my comment above.

      We get into conversation and we discuss and we find answers. And I do thank you for that.

      And you know I give you trouble mess’n with you about stuff to try and about learning. But hope you don’t take it seriously. You know I do tend to be persistent at times. But there’s usually a reason behind it. Mostly to learn and verify something. Kind of like the LGU you got from me. I knew how that gun shot. I knew when you got it what to expect from it. And I knew you would become a good shot with it. Remember when I told you keep shooting out farther and you thought 50 yards would be hard. And I remember mentioning just wait till you shoot out at a 100 yards or farther and see how easy 50 yards becomes.

      And da grazz hopa has become a good teacher too. When the student teaches the teacher is when a good thing happens. And yes I’m still learning. 🙂

      • GF1,

        Thanks for the kind words. Count on me to ask “why”,… 5x over and to come up with crazy sounding ideas. I still want to do an M-rod arrow shooter. And yea, the 41′ to 300′ feet has been interesting and fun. You always said that you did better further out. I seem to also, yet there is no logical reason for it.

        Friday off,… again…… 🙂 Will be doing 100 yard conformation test for sure. Oh yea, I seem to remember someone mentioning something about shooting 2×4’s. Pardon me,… while I consult my notes.

        😉 Chris

      • GF1,

        What would you think of a weight that had a 45 degree cut at the rear? Short side to the top. The blast would hit it and force the shroud down,… or at least it should. I have the stuff I need, I just need to get a machine shop to do it. I stopped by one on the way home. Too busy and all CNC. The owner was into paintball and knew all about HPA and the Shoebox’s. In fact,… he tried to buy the Shoebox operation at one time. He knew all the names of the people and had them saved in his phone. Small world.

        • Chris USA
          That could put pressure on the shroud to make it go down and possibly keep pressure on the barrel too.

          But also that blast that comes out of the barrel and goes into that open area where the spring is before it hits a baffle as it comes from the factory, well even with a weight in front of the baffle. The air pressure equalizes. When it hits and rebounds back to the barrel. With that angle cut at the top your talking about could disrupt the pellet for a split second unequally. And that could make the pellet clip the baffles or weights in the shroud.

          That’s why I mentioned to you to add a air stripper to the muzzle end of the shroud. It won’t have the silencing effect but it will keep the pressure equal and plus add weight. And your out father on the shroud so it will act like more weight if it still equal to the weights you have in the shroud now. You could keep all the factory baffles and spring in also. Or keep your weights in the shroud plus the extra weight of the air stripper. Half a dozen one way or the other.

          Oh and yes I hope you will do the 2×4 penetration test Friday. Oh ok at least before the weekends over anyway. 🙂

          • GF1 and Chris,USA
            Don’t forget that the shroud support at the muzzle end of the barrel has the 6 holes in it that direct some of the air on every shop backwards towards the breech inside the shroud as well so not sure how much some 45 degree cuts in the rear barrel weight would affect holding the barrel down.

            I think for it to have any real effect it would have to direct the air to the outside of the shroud which would increase the noise level quite a bit since the baffling would be negated in that configuration.

            I am also not sue how much an air stripper would help as well with pressure equalization since by the time the air reaches the end of the shroud and would pass by a stripper it has lost most of it velocity from the baffles and holes in the shroud support directing the air blast around inside the shroud. I do have an air stripper for the Hatsan that I tested on it when I first got it and did not find that it made much if any real difference as far as accuracy or gun movement is concerned. But that was in my infant times with air guns as well so it may have been helping and I did not notice the difference. I have an LDC on it now that was bought very soon after I got the gun since it is not backyard friendly at all without it and makes it a deadly powerhouse long range gun being almost silent shooting.

            It would need an adapter to thread onto the end of the shroud for the stripper to attach to as well and I have seen them on eBay for sale the can be used on a Pod or Mrod to mount the stripper or and external LDC but the seller is out of them right now so cannot provide a link. I believe they were around 25 bucks and it replaced the shrouds end cap with external 1/2-20 threads on the forward end to attach the stripper or LDC on with.


            • BD
              Agree about that end peice with the holes on the end of the barrel. I myself wouldn’t do anything inside the shroud to up set air flow in an unequal way.

              And the only reason I suggested adding a air stripper to the out side of the barrel was to add weight. That way all the eternal baffles and spring could be kept in the shroud.

              It was just a way to add weight to the muzzle that might look cooler than just adding a chunk of metal on the outside of the shroud.

              Wasn’t about trying to make it quiet with a LDC or anything like that. And for the most part I believe air strippers weigh more than the LDC’s. I was just trying to say another way to add weight to the muzzle of the shroud.

              • GF1
                Yea that would be a way to add weight on the barrels end without disturbing the baffling but I know my air stripper is not near as heavy as my LDC is on the Hatsan but then the LDC is 8 inches long also but its all aluminum to so its still light for the size it is.

                If I did do something like that it would be just a weight with a 3/8″ hole in it for the pellet to pass thru as I do not like the look of a stripper at all and would prefer just a black weight out on the end of the shroud.

                If you remember my 25 has that end cap with the holes in it outer diameter to resemble a muzzle flash suppressor but does not add any real weight to the shroud or barrel.


                • BD
                  Is that the one I made for the 300s when you got it from me.

                  That was aluminum if I remember right. But yep if you like that look then you could make something to slip over the shroud real easy.

                  • GF1
                    No the end piece I am referring to on the 25 is one I bought off of EBay that replaces the shroud end cap and has about 30 holes around it OD to resemble a flash suppressor on a firearm like an AR-15. it weighs next to nothing since it aluminum and pretty much hollow.

                    The one you made for the 300 I got from you is one the end of my juniors barrel to replace the front sight and cover the groove for the cross pin.


                    • BD
                      Yep I remember that one now you got for your .25 Mrod.

                      And now I remember about the junior too.

                      Something like you got for the Mrod but made out of something heavy would be nice.

                  • GF1
                    Yea I would want the weight to be over the shroud rather than out on the end of it so it does not add to the length of the gun at all,

                    I will just have to see once I get it all together.


                    • BD
                      Maybe you can weight the barrel in your .177 Mrod you use for your feild target matches.

                      It might just tighten the groups up on it too.

                  • GF1
                    Yea I may try that and speaking of FT matches I am up this early as we are having our monthly match today so just getting caught up before I leave in a few minutes. Then after the match we are rearranging the whole course to prepare for the Southern open that is going to be the 24 Thru the 26th of this month and is a sanctioned match.

                    It should be fun as we are shooting international rules on Saturday of 25 lanes with one target per lane and 2 shots per target for a perfect score of 50 and then Sunday it will be US rules of 15 lanes with 2 targets per lane with 2 shot per target for a perfect score of 60 and a total score possible of 110 for the two days.

                    PA will be there on Saturday holding some fun shoot games after the match so that should be interesting as well. they are the only vendor that will be there as far as I know at this time.

                    I had also thought about adding the weight on the barrel inside the shroud but behind the front shroud support so it does not affect the baffles at all. it would be between the breech and the front support. I know it would take more to do the same as if it was around the outside of the shroud but it would still retain the stock sleeper look. I am going to look at all the options and test it first on the 25 as I am not sure if the 177 really needs any extra weight as its more me not holding the gun steady than the gun itself not staying on target.

                    But got to run to get to the match so will talk later.


    • Chris,USA
      Don’t discount yourself so much as you have asked many questions in your short time in the air gun world, but in order to even know what to ask is showing that you indeed understand far more then you realize.

      I second all that GF1 has said as well in we may give you a ribbing at times but its because we know you are hungry for knowledge and by having that thirst it makes us all drink from the cup of knowledge and therefore learn together.

      You know we will always be here for you to question and pester for those burning cinders of information you seek to become better and better everyday. I agree with you as well in that I can only hope this report will cause more readers to become involved in posting and sharing their knowledge as well since everyone has something to bring to the table regardless of if they feel its worthwhile or mot it needs to be put out there for us all to taste.


      • BD76,

        Thanks again to you as well. I love the fact that you try to take things to the extreme limits and will pursue it relentlessly. I can not wait until you get the Franken-M-rod together and see what it does. That will be so cool. I am going to perfect my 100 yard before going full bore on a tune. At 7 shots at 1 5/16″, I figure I have a pretty good chance at a sub 1″. Testing will tell if I got something going for real or if it is luck. I think a weigh and head sort might be in order to push me over that edge.

        Thanks for all the help,…. Chris

        • Chris,USA
          This is true as I am never truly satisfied with the toys I build as there is always something else that can be or needs done. I just emailed the Guy on my valve and adapter and he said he would be making the adapters tomorrow and I am first on the list for one. So he already has a valve with my name on it and hopefully by this weekend I should have the parts on their way to me to build my gun.

          I think if you sort pellets and keep practicing you will achieve the 1″ groups at 100 yards you are after but the sub 2′ groups you have now are still something to be proud of indeed. Their are many a firearm that do not group that good at 100 yards so time and practice will improve your shooting and confidence.

          Always here to help one and all.


    • Chris USA

      Just wanted to hop on and say I have enjoyed your “written accounts”. I have enjoyed the discussions you have been involved in because I want to know the answers to a lot of the questions you ask. I have found it doesn’t really matter what you know and what u don’t. You just gotta know where to look and how to ask. I hope Ur having fun with the mrod at longer ranges man sounds like a blast.

      • Punchin Holes,

        Thank you. Well, now that your here, you can ask them all yourself. 😉 Good to see someone jumping in there and not just sitting on the side lines. As for the “written accounts”,… well, I try to just relay what my experiences are as I experience them. Really nothing different than what any air gunner goes through.

        As B.B. noted in his article, it is really cool to see someone new and see them ask questions, get them answered and find a new direction/path/goal. Then to see the progression as they go forward.

        The M-rod, not in it’s original stock, really fits me. That and the fact that there is not a bunch of thump and bump that a springer generates, even the smoother ones, of which I have 2. That makes a big difference in what happens before/after the pellet leaves the barrel. And yea, that long range stuff is a blast.


  4. B.B.,

    Is there any pellets that will be more accurate the further out I shoot? Also, I am worried about my springers loosing air pressure if I have them cocked, as when hunting.

    Second thought B.B.,…. forget it,….. I think I know the answers. 😉

  5. BB and All,

    I wish to thank you guys for all the knowledge you have past on to me. To learn is why I came here and to learn is why I am still here.

    I usually do not have to much to say for two reasons. One is I do not have much time to give to this. The other is to paraphrase; “It is better to remain silent and thought the fool, then to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”

    That may be why others do not comment. So many confuse ignorance with stupidity or foolishness. But how do you eliminate ignorance without questioning and commenting. Yes, like me at times you will stick your foot in your mouth. If you keep it clean, it won’t taste too bad. You will also learn and after a while you will not be sticking it in your mouth as much.

      • BB,

        Oh, it was love at first sight. The soul searching was that I knew it needed to be disassembled and repaired and I did not know if I could do such as I had no experience with tearing down sproingers. In the end I trusted what you and Mike had said and went for it. I am so thankful I did. She has been my favorite shooter since.

        As I said, I have learned a lot here.

    • RR
      I wish people would ask whatever questions come to mind and to give ideas they have.

      Everybody starts somewhere. I can’t remember how many crazy questions I asked growing up about a lot of different things.

      But what I can say for sure I’m glad I did ask those questions. And it’s always been a hands on thong with me. And when I didn’t and tryed some of my own ideas I had some very interesting outcomes. Some bad but also good. So it was definitely better to ask about something for sure. Saved time and money amoung other things like frustration when it didn’t go as planned.

      And just to say. It’s really more foolish to not ask a question than it is to ask. You never know what my come about.

    • RR
      I will say it must be nice to be flexible enough to be able to get your foot in your mouth when you do say the wrong things as its been so long since I have been able to do that that I just eat crow nowadays. It easier to put in your mouth but the feathers are more difficult to get out of your teeth. LOL

      Truthfully though the only dumb question are the ones that are not asked as I believe that no one here will on purposes belittle or put anyone down for not knowing the answers to all the questions as I know I sure don’t myself. If you do not know then your only way to find out is ask and I cannot think of a better place to do so.


      • BD,

        I have had a lot of practice putting it in there.

        There are no dumb questions, but there sure are some dumb answers and I have given quite a few of them over the years.

        • RR
          Yea I had plenty of practice with putting it there as well but now cannot get it close so just eat crow instead.

          I have given my share of dumb answers as well when my mouth gets ahead of what little mind I have left.


    • R.R.,

      On being the “fool”, both the above questions were asked right here, by me. The first one B.B. replied to and was very matter of fact,… no there is no pellets that will do that. The second one, a few readers more “in the know” had some fun and came back with replies like “I don’t think it will a problem” or “maybe a little, but not enough to worry about”, etc. 😉 It was like 6 months later, after I had torn down the TX and learned quite a bit more,… that I realized what I had asked and the answers I got. Good one guys!

      I would ask all over again,.. without a doubt,.. because at the time,….. those were (very real) questions for me.

  6. B.B.:

    You know, I almost always read all the “chatter” that follows one of your posts. I learn a great deal from the posts, but the subsequent “conversation” often includes important additional information and clarification that arise from other readers questions and such. Not reading the follow-on comments is like only reading half a book.

    That said, I wish there were some way of being able to sort all the comments that follow all the posts by subject. If I’m looking for info on how to optically center a scope or what mounts to use with a given scope / rifle combination I don’t always find all the available information because it might be in an off-topic conversation following a report on a new 10 meter pistol.

    Anybody else in the same boat here?

    St. Louis, MO

    • Motorman
      I have mentioned in the past that the comments tend to have a lot of good info that gets talked about off subject.

      If that could be accessed at will that would be a very good thing.

    • Motorman
      I can barely find the topics the reports are about myself much less the wealth of info within the post in the reports so that would be a wonderful thing to have available but likely a monumental task to accomplish.

      I know I have to most always resort to asking BB if he has reported on what I am seeking so he can provide the link as I obviously never use the correct search keywords to find what I heed and after hours of sorting thru the monthly logs I find it much quicker just to ask here and someone will usually post the link to what I needed.


  7. All,
    Thank you all for the help and stimulation I’ve received here. One of the neat things about airguns is that many are inexpensive enough and not as heavily regulated as firearms so a person can tear into them and modify them and try to make them better. The results of experiments can often be tested at home without the need for a trip to a range.
    I fired thousands of shots testing the effect of oil on BB’s, all in my basement. Couldn’t have done anything like that with firearms.
    I cut an off-center hole in a scope endcap.
    I twisted it in different orientations, and as you predicted, as long as i could see the crosshairs the groups didn’t seem to move. This kind of experimenting wouldn’t happen on a firearms blog.
    A big thank you to BB for making it all possible

      • Gunfun1
        Thank you for suggesting the concept! Also, in my mention of the oiled BB experiments i should have credited you and ChrisUSA for parallel experiments for confirmation, and mostly for letting me know someone else was actually interested in some pretty obscure experiments!
        And that is what BB has brought together….curious minds, willing hands, polite mouths and helpful spirits!

        • Fido3030
          The oiled bb experiment was more you and Chris USA.

          And that is a good point. Interest. I don’t shoot bb’s really, always liked pellets more.

          But definitely interested when somebody shares info about all other subjects that is brought up here.

          That’s what makes this blog work. All the different information that is brought to the table.

        • Fido3030,

          Thank you. I have been very impressed with your resolve to testing. Very controlled and well thought out. Heck, you even built a special device to hold the “test subjects”. 😉

          I love that kind of stuff. Keep it up and keep us posted as to the latest findings.

          • Chris USA
            Thank you! I’ve always enjoyed experimenting. Teaching school i would assign things like drop a marble and use something to make it take as long as possible to stop. The winner dropped it in a jar of Vaseline. Or, build a catapult to shoot ping pong balls the farthest. Most used bungee cords The winner filled the ball with water. Lots of fun and taught critical thinking.
            This is a really neat place to meet people like yourself, BB, Gunfun, BD and so many more, who think critically and are supported and are not made fun of. It didn’t just happen…thanks again BB!

  8. Dewalt airgun that looks like an AR15:

    In view of the recent Supreme Court ruling, sales of this new product may skyrocket.
    Washington thinks they are going to take away our guns, so check this out.

    NAIL GUNS! (You don’t even have to REGISTER them or have LICENSES for them!)

    AND, you don’t have to worry about them being CONCEALED!

    Just a LOT of good stuff you can do with them!

    Once in a while something so totally cool comes out that even a guy who doesn’t normally even know what he’d like for Father’s Day or Christmas would immediately ask for it:

    Thank you, DeWalt!!!


    New Nail Gun, made by DeWalt. It can drive a 16-d nail through a 2×4 at 200 yards.
    This makes construction a breeze, you can sit in your lawn chair and build a fence.

    Hundred round magazine.

    Someone invades your home, just nail their ass.

    No registration required!

          • Pete,

            You will have Chris USA experimenting with pnumatic spearguns next.

            Chris, when you do please do not shoot one out of the water with the string attached to the spear.


            • Jim,

              Been there, done that. 🙂 Daisy 880 with the shroud cut off. It fit an aluminum shaft arrow real nice. It worked, but lacked the needed power. Fired level with 12 pumps it hit the ground at 20 yards. The M-rod has a 1/2″ barrel, so I will have to get some tubing and make an adapter to install it into the breech. With the M-rod., it would be real easy to do.

      • Pete in The CSea
        Yep I used to have a nitrogen powered one that you put the spear in and leaned against a piece of wood or other semi hard object to cock it to load the spear into and it was like a crossbow on land and would shoot the spear out to 100 yards easily. it was very deadly out to 20 or so yards underwater as well.

        It has since lost all pressure and I have misplaced the spear. Neat gun indeed and yep no license required.


  9. B.B.,

    I was a reader of this blog for quite some time before I started to periodically chime in with a question or two. This blog has provided me with the vast majority of however much I understand about air guns (and firearms, for that matter). I have written this here before, Tom, but it cannot be said enough: you are a natural teacher, a rare and precious type of person.

    Thanks so very much, Obi-Wan,


  10. Gosh, and I thought I was the only one that learned a lot from this blog! I worked for a gunsmith back in 1962 and 1963 and have been an amateur gunsmith on firearms ever since. Started working on airguns about two years ago and will be learning until I finally die. Have sure learned a lot here on the blog. Thanks all.

    Fide3030 mentioned the off-center hole in a scope endcap discussion I guess I missed. I assume it has to do with determining parallax in a scope. Please explain that again for those of us that missed it.

    I’m now faced with an HW35 I got very cheap to “fix”. The Trigger was out of adjustment, but that was easy. But the .177 barrel is way too rough to shot better than about 4 to 5 inch groups at 25 yards, if that good. Seems HW35 barrels are not easy to find at decent price. Can’t decide if it’s worth tracking down a barrel or maybe just parting out the gun. I need another airgun like I need another hole in my head, ha, ha.

    Thanks BB for keeping up the blog.

  11. Geez gang, I’m gettin’ all misty over here. Time for a group hug, couple verses of “Teach the World to sing” & doughnuts, then we can all go search for that Unicorn that farts Rainbows?!? All seriousness aside, never miss a day here. Thanx. Shoot/ride safe.

      • That. was. funny!!! The person that wrote the copy was almost as good as you & Prince Charming should win an Oscar for Best Dramatic Actor in a non dramatic role!

    • Beazer,

      🙂 x3. I am with you on the “mushy” stuff. Time to move on,…… which brings me to the question of how can I tune an M-rod to shoot this new can of .25 cal., 50 grain pellets at somewhere around 1500 fps? Ok,…. I would settle for 1400. Ideas anyone?

      • Howdy C U, well, throwing caution to the wind & totally disregarding Ridge Runners advice i.e. “It is better to remain silent and thought the fool, then to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”, I’d say go with a minimum of a 96″ twin cam & 6 speed tranny. Now you know why I sit at the kids table & am not allowed to say anything without adult permission!?! Shoot/ride safe.

      • Chris,USA
        You got to get a new Cothran valve like I am and put a 5 pound hammer in the Mrod with a 50 pound spring and you will be shooting those 50 grain pellets at 1500 fps with no problems of course you will only get one shot per fill but it will be a Blast. Pun intended.


        • BD76,

          Rest assured, I will be hitting you up on tune tips. I can not wait until you get yours up and shooting.

          Any kind of “time line” on that? I know you will have it maxed out with (all that you have deemed to be the best) of components.

          • Chris,USA
            I talked to Don Wednesday on my valve and adapter and he was supposed to be starting on the adapters Thursday and he already has a valve reserved for me and I am first on the list for an adapter. So I am hoping by Monday that I hear from him saying my parts are ready to get paid for and shipped.

            Yea I am looking to build it so that with a few easy adjustments I can go from a 65 fpe gun shooting the 33.85 JSB to a 96 fpe gun shooting 50 grain slugs at around the 930 fps range for both.

            It will be a fun project to play with and tune.


  12. I started reading this blog on and off September of 2014 and resolved reading the entire content from 2005 soon after. Reading the everything including the comments enriched the knowledge gained as that increased the number of viewpoints. I am now up to that month and soon will catch up from when I started reading.

    As one fellow airgunner once remarked to me we are enrolled in this course. The best we can do is to help spread the knowledge.

    Many Thanks from a Padawan.

  13. BB,

    I do appreciate that you pull comments and questions from the replies here and post the wisdom and/or wizdumb on your regular blog. I don’t always have time to read thru the comments, and tend to skip it for blog posts I have less interest in (sorry for the sacrilege, but handguns and BB guns don’t interest me much). So, it’s good that the more interesting comments and replies get reflected back into your blogs, thanks for that. Like Siraniko, I too have spent many a productive hour searching through the blog archives for answers to the mysteries of airguns. Please keep up the good work, this is one of my regular reads.

  14. Gunfun 1
    I never tried to check for parallax with the hole in the end cap that way. I’ll try it out. I have reset parallax in cheaper scopes for use on rimfires or airguns but just moved my eye around. Never thought about parallax on red dots.

    • Jonah
      It was BB and Fido3030 idea about trying it with a scope lens cover.

      I just brought the test to the table to try and see what they come up with. I tryed by setting a air gun rifle on a bench rest. Then I held the butt pad on the stock. I held my head back behind the gun and moved my head in different places and shot groups by keeping the reticle on target.

      I was calling parallax the focusing of the scope at a given distance and wasn’t taking into account that it could also affect sight picture in relation to head placement.

      I just was bringing up the fact that I could still shoot good groups as long as I could see the reticle and place it on the target.

      Why I mentioned it is that I was surprised that I could still shoot that good of groups. I was always taught that cheek weld was a important thing. So it really opened my eyes (pun intended) when I tryed the experiment I mentioned. Then Fido3030 verified with the lens cap experiment. But that’s how that all came about.

  15. Hi BB and the group. It was sometime in 2014 I joined the group . For the most part, always stressed in my earlier posts I was a newbie. In this hobby, with so many aspects of air gun shooting I will always be a newbie, in one form or another. I look forward to each daily blog and the comments from your faithful readers.You guys are a bunch of cool dudes. One thing I have found, is lot of you come from technical, mechanical fields . So, the air gun
    mechanics fit right in with us old car and motorcycle guys. Best wishes to you and May The Force be with you .

    • Harvy
      Agree about the cars and motorcycles and mechanical stuff. You wouldn’t believe where I went and what I tryed on Radio Control airplanes. Another hobby that has interested me since I was a kid.

      But one thing that always comes to mind no matter what hobby I was involved with at the time there was always at least and I’ll say that again at (least) one person that was willing to spill their knowledge with what was at hand at that time.

      I’m glad I have been lucky in life to have met those type of people. Really glad.

  16. GF1 and the group. RC planes were a bust for me. I never could control the aircraft when it was flying towards me.
    Same kind of thing, like backing up a trailer. I hope there is a medical term for that , rather then stupidity . I am at the point in this hobby, about 2 years, where I really do not know what my preferences are . For a newbie, have a nice collection of BB pistols , several of the standard pump up pellet pistols. One of my favorite pellet pistols is the Crosman 2240 . That has to be the most bang for the buck out there. One thing for sure, BB will review some new
    gun that will tickle my fancy, but cost is always a consideration. I need to find more information on on lightening up the trigger pull on my Browning Buck Mark. What a cool little springer for indoor shooting. I always enjoy your comments GunFun 1.

    • Harvey


      And yep that’s what is hard about the R/C planes. You have to picture your self as being in the cockpit of the plane when you fly them. It has to become second nature. If you have to take time to think about what your next move is. It will be too late. You will be in the ground.

      And something I try to explain to people about the planes in s I can feel the sticks to n the controller feel mushy or real responsive depending on air speed, wind and throttle. It’s crazy that your eyes and brain can connect the feel of some me think with out actually touching it. If I’m remembering right the full size fighter jets that are fly by wire had to have some type of feel or resistance programed into the flight stick so the pilot would have a sense of feel when they were flying. Otherwise they would over control the plane and have more chance for a crash to happen.

  17. B.B.

    I love the star wars reference. I always muse to myself about how I should let my feelings rule me and succumb to the dark side. All that power with less discipline needed for the light sight. (Spring piston rifles, is how I made the joke to myself) I could get excited about making a shot and then maybe not miss the next one because I changed some small nuance.

    I always joke to myself when I am frustrated with the shot sensitivity of my springers and the sub par triggers of my pumpers.

    I read the comment you made about wants and sometimes the want is better than the have. I’m reluctant to buy another rifle just to find I had unrealistic expectations. It is only 20% gun after all. 😉

    • P.H.,

      With you on that last line. The M-rod fell into that category, but I went there anyways. Glad I did. It flipped that 20/80 to 80/20. I am getting results that are definitely not typical for me.

  18. Most of the things I love about this blog are all related to how much can be learned here. The post itself and the back and forth of the comments never fail to educate and the really great thing is that the “professor” of the class (BB) is just as willing and eager to learn as the students. I also like how much mutual respect and plain decency is shown between the commenters – that is a rare thing on the internet!

    Haven’t seen a comment by J.Lee for a while and miss them – his posts always reminded me of the writings of Admiral Jacky Fisher:-)

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