by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Sig P320 pellet and BB pistol.
This report covers:
- The test — 1
- Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
- Experimentation
- Failure to feed
- Qiang Yuan Training pellets
- The breakthrough!
- The test — 2
- Back to 10 meters
- RWS Hobbys
- H&N Finale Match Light
- Summary
Today we look at the accuracy of the Sig Sauer P320 pellet pistol with pellets. I will tell you right up front — this day went differently than I expected. I actually learned a lot about the pistol, but also about myself!
The test — 1
Normally with a pellet pistol I shoot off a rest at 10 meters. I shoot 10 shots per pellet and then measure the groups, just as I do when I test air rifles. That was what I started out to do with the P320, only things didn’t go as I anticipated.
Sig Match Ballistic Alloy
I thought I would begin with Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets, so 10 were loaded into the magazine belt. They fit the chambers very tight.
I started shooting at the test distance of 10 meters, because when I’m shooting with open sights they are usually on at that distance. Not this time!
I used the 6 o’clock hold that I always use when shooting at paper bullseye targets. That’s the bullseye sitting on top of the front sight, when the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight and centered in the notch. If the bullseye was a clock face, I would be shooting at 6 o’clock on the dial. However the first shot didn’t hit the paper.
The cardboard backer behind the target seemed to have a new hole that was aligned with the center of the bull and about 4 inches below the aim point, so I stopped shooting. I moved up to 12 feet from the target and fired shot number 2. This time I aimed high and the pellet went to the point of aim, which perplexed me. The pistol was hitting right at the aim point. Twelve feet is hardly far enough for testing pellets, so I went back to 10 meters again and used an old Elmer Keith trick of holding the front sight high in the rear notch, and still using a 6 o’clock hold. When you shoot a 1911 pistol at 100 yards, that’s the sight picture you use.
The pellets all landed on target, but not in a great group. That was due to the lack of precision in the aiming — not the pistol’s fault.
Experimentation
It was time to experiment, so I did. And I decided to forgo the 10-shot groups. I tried Falcon domed pellets next, but they sprayed all over the place. That led me to think maybe the P320 wants heavier pellets. So I tried some RWS Superdomes. They were better, but still not good.
Failure to feed
There were some failures to feed with the Superdomes. The belt simply did not advance. The pellet wasn’t sticking out of the belt, either in the front or the back, but I decided to try another pellet.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets
I tried Qiang Yuan Training pellets next. They weigh 8.2 grains, so I thought they would be heavier and perhaps shoot higher (didn’t really know that for sure — it was just a guess), plus, after the failure to feed with the Superdome pellets, I wanted to get back to wadcutters.
The breakthrough!
When I loaded 5 Qiang Yuan pellets into the belt I discovered 3 Superdomes were still there. The belt had stopped advancing again. I left them where they were and just loaded 5 more pellets behind them. I decided to move up to 12 feet from the target and just shoot the entire magazine rapidly. And that’s when I discovered how the Sig P320 pellet pistol wants to work. Yes, I was only 12 feet from the target, but it seemed like every pellet wanted to go where I aimed! The three Superdomes went into the black where I was holding (center of the bullseye) and the 5 Chinese wadcutters followed right along. The 8 shots fired rapidly from 12 feet with two different pellets went into a group that’s about 2-inches across, measured on the outside.
Eight shots at 12 feet. Three were Superdomes and 5 were Qiang Yuan Training pellets. This group told me what I needed to know about the pistol.
The test — 2
The Sig P320 is a fast double action pistol, so I decided to test it that way instead of like a target pistol. I still shot at paper targets to get a record of where the pellets hit, but the accent was off of target shooting and on to hitting what I was shooting at! I’m not going to measure these groups to the thousandth of an inch because that doesn’t make sense.
Back to 10 meters
I now knew a couple things. First, the P320 wants to be aimed at the center of the target — not at 6 o’clock. That should make some readers who don’t care for target shooting very happy. It is also very much in-keeping with a double action trigger pull.
Next, I had discovered that the trigger, while double action only, is very controllable. Few people can shoot as accurately double action as they can single action, but a good DAO trigger does help things. I have a Glock 36 in .45 ACP that came from the factory with a mediocre (long and creepy) trigger, but I had it upgraded with an aftermarket kit that made it very nice. The trigger became both lighter and smoother. I can shoot groups at close range (out to 15 yards) that are quite respectable. This Sig P320 trigger is at least as good as the upgraded one on my Glock, and I find it easy to shoot.
So, five shots from 10 meters with the Qiang Yuan training pellets went into 2.6 inches — measured across the outside of the widest holes. They are a little to the left of center, but that’s me — a right-handed shooter — squeezing off the shots and pulling the gun to the left just a little. That’s common with right-handed shooters. Southpaws go the other way when they shoot with one hand as I do.
Five Qiang Yuan Training pellets from 10 meters. The outside dimension is 2.6-inches across.
RWS Hobbys
The next pellet I tried was the RWS Hobby. Five of them went into 2.1 inches at 10 meters. Again, they are a little left of center, which is me shooting double action and not the pistol.
Five RWS Hobby pellets went into a 2.1-inch group, measured across the outside of the group — not center-to-center, at 10 meters.
H&N Finale Match Light
The last pellet I tried was the H&N Finale Match Light wadcutter. Now that I knew where to aim (center of the bull) there was no problem keeping these on the bull or close to it. Five pellets went into 2.2-inches, and this time there were a little closer to the centerline. That’s not because this pellet is better — it’s me, learning how to shoot double action again.
Five H&N Finale Match Light pellets went into a 2.2-inch group, measured across the outside of the group — not center-to-center, at 10 meters.
Summary
If you paid attention, all three 5-shot groups in today’s test are in the 2-2.5-inch range. That shows the pistol is consistent and in today’s report it’s the shooter who needs more practice.
The Sig P320 pistol is a pleasure to shoot. I would recommend shooting pellets if you want to shoot at 30-50 feet. This is not a paper puncher. It’s for rolling a soda can around the yard as fast as you pull the trigger.
In this test you can see that I am improving my groups as I shoot. Double action is not easy — especially if you are used to great single action triggers with crisp let-offs. But the training value should not be underestimated. Even with a pellet gun, you are learning trigger control, so when you get back to your Sig firearm, it will seem a little easier.
I like the blowback on this pistol. It feels realistic, yet it didn’t cause any problems with accuracy.
The 30-round belt magazine works very well. Until today it never failed to feed, so pay attention to which pellet you shoot and there shouldn’t be a problem.
The trigger is the strongest feature of the pistol. You would pay a lot to get a firearm trigger as good as this one.
B.B.,
For some reason this one doesn’t excited me. I guess I’m among those who consider blow-back that does not even cock the hammer or striker to be an absurdity — like that BB gun Daisy made for awhile that produced a hokey ricochet sound. I understand the purpose of blow-back providing some realism to a potential training tool for owners of the firearm, but as I understand it, this air pistol lacks number of functional parts of the real deal, one of the criteria for a really good trainer.
On the other hand, I am pretty ignorant of the firearm. Is the P320 a DAO pistol like Glocks? If so. then this air pistol deserves more marks for realism than I thought.
(But I’ll bet it gets outshot by a certain air gun named for a playing card!)
Michael
Michael,
Yes, the firearm P320 also is DAO. I didn’t get a chance to shoot one at the Sig day at the range at SHOT this year, butI have looked at them and held them and there is a lot of similarity.
DAO is becoming the norm in semiautomatic pistols because it is safer than single action in the hands of a newer shooter. Because the trigger is both longer and harder to pul;l there is less likelihood of an unintentional discharge.
B.B.
I don’t understand how the trigger length of pull or weight impacts unintentional discharge, can you explain?
Why would you have your finger on the trigger if you are not ready to discharge? This to me sounds like it is designed to reduce negligent discharge. Which is a problem that I don’t think can be solved by making a firearm worse.
I remember a recent case where bystanders were shot that was attributed to a trigger like this.
Steven,
As a right-handed shooter squeezes the trigger back, he pushes the front of the gun to the left. It’s very slight, but it happens.
You might say, “Why don’t you just compensate for that?” We do, but it’s harder to overcome than you think. That’s why brilliant revolver shots like Ed McGivern and Jerry Miculek are held in such high regard. And it’s also what I meant by “…it was the shooter and not the gun.”
B.B.
I am a bit confused by your response.
I am quite clear on the downsides of a hard trigger pull, I am unclear on how a hard trigger pull is safer.
Steven,
It’s not just a hard trigger pull. It’s also a long pull. People sometimes touch the trigger whewn they shouldn’t. If a pistol is cocked and ready to fire, touching the trigger can set off the gun. But if you have to pull the trigger back a log way and it is also harder to do, almost nobody does that unconsciously. That’s why police departments around the world favor double action only pistols. They get more shots than a revolver but have the same safe trigger.
B.B.
This entire concept violates the basic rules of gun safety.
Touching the trigger should set off the gun, that is the point of a trigger. These folks should not be catered too.
Normalizing and accommodating touching the trigger without intent to fire is going to lead to more accidental deaths not less.
Steven,
It may not sound right, in light of proper gun-handling guidelines, but police departments all around the country have reported far fewer accidental discharges from DAO pistols. Remember, police officers are not always training with their handguns. For many of them a handgun is just something they have to use, like the radio or computer. So, making the gun safer to use is a plus.
B.B.
I am not even sure how to respond to this.
Fewer? That there are any points to a serious problem. Any negligent discharge, which is what they are, should be a career ending event. Proper gun handling guidelines should be don’t touch the trigger until you want to shoot. That we consider this remotely acceptable speaks to a lot of problems we have in this country.
Treating a handgun like a radio or computer should be disqualifying for carrying one on duty.
Even considering that is appropriate to treat firearms like this goes beyond everything I was ever taught. Mind you by the NRA and other such programs.
I am sorry, but this is beyond my ability to understand and explains why so many of my fellow shooters leave the range when others arrive.
Steven,
Look it up. I am not making this up. I got this from a former law enforcement officer who trained his department to shoot. They were using Sigs for this very reason many years ago.
Yes there are accidental discharges. The Army has them, too. I remember when I was the payroll officer, the finance office where I picked up a paper bag with about $20,000 (the men liked to be paid in cash in those days) had a 55-gallon barrel full of sand that was sunk into the ground AT THE FRONT DOOR!!! It was there because we had to unload and clear our weapons before entering the building. Every year or two some second lieutenant would fire a round into the barrel, because he cleared his M1911A1 pistol incorrectly. He would rack the slide, then drop the magazine and pull the trigger. That was the end of his career, but if he used the barrel properly at least nobody got hurt.
My first sergeant did the same thing with a pump-action shotgun when he was changing the guard on my arms room. Put a hole in the ceiling and did who knows what to his underpants!
Police departments have the same kind of problems.
B.B.
I believe you, I am just horrified that this is considered acceptable.
I am glad to hear the military takes care of this correctly. Police departments should as well. I bet it would greatly increase the public’s confidence if such things ended a career.
Again though, that discharge was not an accident that was negligence. An accident would be tripping and falling and somehow setting off the gun due to pressure on the holster or something, you could not have predicted the outcome based on the steps taken. Clearing a gun incorrectly, is negligence. The outcome was predictable based on the steps taken, but it was ignored. He knew the right way to do it, he just neglected to do it correctly or to catch the mistake. Had the officer racked the pistol again, all would have been fine. When in doubt rack it again, twice to be sure. Belt and suspenders.
StevenG,
Idiot-proof guns might indeed promote idiotic gun-handling. You are right that no one should carry a firearm without learning how to treat it. But no one can make this world conform to that ideal. One glance at yoo-who-toob shows there are a lot of “idgits” out there who bought a hand-cannon to wave around in one hand while holding their 6th beer in the other.
One approach to the reality — that many gun owners have not yet learned or might never learn how to handle a gun safely — is to try to make it as fool-proof as possible.
Hence a pistol that won’t fire if it is dropped, that won’t discharge simply by having a finger stupidly loitering in the triggerguard, that is less likely to go off if it is casually waved around.
StevenG, which would you prefer, laws that require firearm coursework and passed exams before one can be licensed to purchase a gun, or few or no regulations for the sale of a gun in a world full of Glocks? The perfect, gun-educated world is not going to happen, so those are the only two choices.
Michael
StevenG,
To say that ADs within law enforcement is acceptable is a bit of a stretch. I would think they continue to train with the same emphasis on firearm safety as they did with single action weapons but recognize that, on any given day, YOU or some police officer with an otherwise exemplary service record can be human. That is to say, lose focus, forget under stress, or panic out of fear and put your finger inside the guard when you shouldn’t. At that point a bump against a door jamb or a piece of furniture is all it could take to disengage the sear and BANG. If that brief human failing results in a life changing injury or the death of someone, firing the cop or arresting you for involuntary manslaughter is not going to undo that. Training and DOA. Belt and a very effective Suspender, IMHO.
MIchael,
I would for police at least prefer the testing.
@Halfstep
If they are not terminated for that then it is accepted.
I can’t agree that we should support this kind of attitude towards firearms and supposed professionals. Would you be ok with a surgeon that accidentally cut your heart in half? Oops dropped the knife. Would you be ok with a lawyer that forgot to file your motions and had you lose a big case?
StevenG,
I guess I didn’t explain my viewpoint on this well. I believe punishment should be given, after all it is considered negligent among law enforcement and in civilian law. The thing is, someone is still going to eventually shoot someone because they were careless. Punishing that person won’t change the fact that someone is dead or badly injured. Using firearms that make this more difficult only makes sense in light of that. The damages awarded to victims, in the case of ADs in law enforcement, come out of the taxpayer’s pocket, after all, and I would rather see that cash spent in other ways, personally. Preventitive measures like DAO firearms doesn’t mean anyone has accepted poor firearm handling as OK. If everyone was trained to the high degree you have been and could count on never making a mistake with his gun we wouldn’t really need those pesky old safety buttons and levers would we?
Halfstep,
I understand now, you simply want to avoid the incident. My fear is that these crutches lead to more incidents, I bet many are unreported, and an acceptance of this behavior. In NYC in 2016 some bystanders were shot by a police officer and the blame at some point was on the very heavy trigger.
That LEOs are not required to carry their own malpractice insurance is a separate issue. The taxpayer should not be the one on the hook.
That you believe LEOs are not trained to the same level as a former boyscout and recreational shooter does not inspire confidence.
StevenG,
I’m sure LEOs get better training and more often than a Boy Scout. That you believe you or any other human is infallible is what I’m taking issue with. Also, I don’t think a single incident in NYC necessarily points to trend.
Halfstep,
You don’t have to be infallible to keep your booger hook off the bang switch. That you think they can’t manage this says a lot.
The AMT DAO 45 backup pistol may be one of the safest, and it has absolutely no safety on it.
To fire it you have to loop a rope through the trigger housing and tie the ends to a car bumper, a pole will work too, then lean forward while pointing at your target and run as fast as you can till you run out of rope slack ! …Keeping your arms very stiff of course.
Although the trigger housing is big enough to fit both index fingers so you can use both hands to fire it.
Definitely child proof and may even be adult proof for some. You really have to work to fire it. That faint snap you may hear is just the ligaments in your arm, or arms as it may be, repositioning from the strain. 🙂
Bob M
🙂
B.B.,
Most interesting… I have a Sig P250C in 9mm. The P250 also has that loooong DAO trigger pull.
The cost of ammo has come down but it still is a factor when it comes to decisions regarding allocation of financial resources. So, I don’t put in as much range time as I should to train myself for better trigger control. Sometime down the road I’ll have to get one of these. While it’s not a doppelganger for the P250, the trigger is the matter for me. Will help Mary Ellen as well.
And fun too. Not everything has to have a serious purpose.
Just now my springer is my focus, so the P320 will be on the wish list for some future purchase.
Thanks for your honesty regarding learning. Being the “Airgun Godfather, it might be tempting to never admit to not knowing something. I don’t see a lot of ego in you. At least not the kind that makes one defensive.
Your tests are so detailed and as such they really do become a teaching/learning resource.
I really don’t want to sound like a “suck-up.” Some years ago I decided that if I saw something valuable, admirable or useful, I would say so. Being a critic is no great talent and critics are a dime a dozen. There is always someone around who will point out an error or just bitch about whatever. But understand, it’s “for your own good.” If I can’t add value to the conversation, I’m certainly not going to detract.
There is a ratio of negative to positive feedback. We tend to focus on and more easily recall the negative. I’ve heard various combinations, but it goes something like one negative comment wipes out 20 “attaboys.” I know that it’s true for me, just human nature, I guess. Anyway, thanks for your work to faithfully bring these tests every day.
Grandpa Dan,
Check out this one: /product/sig-sauer-p250-co2-pistol-metal-slide-black?m=3714
Michael
Michael,
So cool! Thank you!
Now I’m weighing whether I can avoid the doghouse since I just bought a Benjamin Maximus in addition to a gas spring rifle and I have the Gamo Hunter that I started out with. .
I think that caution is the better part of valor just now.
Dan
Dan
Now ya know I want to hear about your Maximus when you get it.
What caliber did you get?
GF1,
Not to preempt Dan,.. but I asked that question the other day,…. .22.
I still can not believe that you went to the “light” side,….. 🙁
Chris U
Done went through a bunch a bunch a air guns. Did the dark side bright side and left and right side. 🙂
Now it’s kick’n back time. Just following my old saying. Simple but effective. That’s why the springers and Co2 guns.
Matter of fact getting ready to get a 2260. Basically a .22 caliber Discovery on Co2. How do you think it will shoot. Wait a minute that’s kind of a trick question ain’t it. 😉
GF1,
You have FOR SURE been around the proverbial air gun “block”. More power to ya.
Chris U
A blessing and a curse at the same time.
But thankful I have got to do what I done with air guns. Wouldn’t have it any other way. 🙂
Gunfun1,
Got a 2260 I think you will love it. The one I got had a bur at the transfer port so I almost sent it back but decided to clear the bur myself using a small chisel and file to remove the errant metal and it shot quite nice after that.
Before about 2 inches at 10 meters, after less than one half inch at 10 meters, all the room I have.
Mike
Mike
Thanks.
Everybody that has em likes em. And always recommend em.
I look at them like they are a Discovery on Co2. Kind of sort of.
But from what I see that they are equiped with they should be a fine shooting gun. And I bet out at 40 yards. Maybe even 50 yards or so in the right hands.
Definitely in the right price range too.
Just wish I had 40 to 50 yards to play with, as accurate as it is at 10 I think it would place well at longer distances.
Mike
You know that makes me think of something.
I hear people say they wish they had the longer distances.
Do you have relatives or friends with a area that could be shot at that’s not in he city or such?
Or have you thought about going to the local shooting range. I don’t know what you think about that at but the shooting ranges by my house do allow air guns.
I would check into it if I was in that situation. Matter of fact that is what I had to do with my firearms before I got this place. It was either at my brother’s house or the local shooting range. Which at that time both were very inconvenient. About 25 miles from my house. But it still allowed me to go out and exsperiance other distances than what I could shoot at with my air guns at home. The last house I lived at was better.
Anyway you know what I mean.
Dan,
🙂 You have indeed stepped upon a slippery slope. Proceed with much caution,… 😉
Dan
I too am looking forward to hearing more about your Maximus in .22 cal. If my RWS 34P that B.B. is evaluating here in the blog doesn’t turn out to be capable of 1″ or less groups at 25 yards, then I will be considering the Maximus also. Both of us are having similar accuracy issues with our springers.
GF1 and Chris USA both have a Maximus and have stated that they like it a lot because of the weight, accuracy, and being able to fill it easily with a hand pump. I definitely do not want to spend $300 or $400 on a scuba tank, or $600 to $1200 on a compressor. Hand pump is my only option for HPA filling.
As Tom said in the Responding to GrandpaDanblog, I just want a tool. I’m with you, low cast and simple is best. Not looking for the ultimate in accuracy, just enough to “git’er done.”
Received the Maximus on Thursday but have not had time to take it out of the box. Between family travel, illness, a church event and getting the gardens ready, there’s been no time for my pursuits. If all goes well this afternoon, we should finish the garden, then it’s my turn! Next weekend we have a niece’s wedding out of state but should be back home late Saturday. So I’m planning next Sunday afternoon to be my “Maximus get acquainted day.”
I’ll keep you in the loop.
Dan
Dan
Thanks for your reply. I look forward to your postings about the Maximus. Now this rifle appears to be a TOOL plenty accurate enough for pesting. Did you get a hand pump to fill it with the rifle?
Quite the interesting chain of events. Thank you for pressing on. The belt feed,.. or rather lack to feed,.. is interesting. With the pellets (not) sticking out from either side of the holder(s). I have to wonder if the pistol has one of those spring loaded barrels that “rides” on the front of the holders. Perhaps the rounded breech end does in fact stick back in the holder to some degree? That might explain the difference between the domes and wad cutters.
It is only a guess.
Good Day all,…. Chris
B.B.,
I had a thought about the accuracy results you published when I read Part 4 this morning.
There is at least one P226 ASP “accurizing” video on youtube. In one of the videos, the author has wrapped several layers of electrical tape around the barrel to keep it from rattling around inside the slide, similar to what a lot of folks do to the muzzle end of a Crosman 1077 barrel. The claim is that it improved accuracy of the P226 ASP tremendously. Since the P320 ASP comes from the same folks at Sig Sauer (and probably shares some of its internal design with the P226), could that be the root cause of the 2+ inch groups?
Link is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKUYn8fyVHk
Dave
[P.S. Be gentle — it’s my first post. I’m glad to meet you, as I’ve been playing sponge with all of your blog entries for the last six months!]
Dave,
Welcome to the blog.
Yes, the internal tolerances of these pistols can be large, but that is by design. To operate under poor conditions (when they are dirty, full of water or mud and just to continue to fire when they haven’t been cleaned), the maker will open up the tolerances. They can be accurized like the You Tube video shows, but you probably give up some reliability in the process.
I used to accurize 1911s, and tightening the tolerances was the trick. But my guns were only for punching paper — not for combat.
B.B.
Dlvoots,
Welcome to the blog. That’s a neat way of possibly enhancing the accuracy. Please be aware that B.B. will have to return the unit after his evaluation for it to be sold by PyramydAir at a reduced price unless he decides it’s a keeper and buys it.
Siraniko
Thanks for the kind words. Figuring out things like this has been an itch I just can’t seem to scratch for most of my life. Pretty much made a career out of diagnosing things.
Dave
Dlvoots, (a.k.a Da’ Sponge) 😉
I say welcome too. I like your fix it and make it better attitude. A few other’s here are similarly inclined. You should fit right in! 🙂
So,.. do have any airguns/shooting experience?
Chris
Da’ Sponge? I really like that! Gotta go back into my profile to see if I can use that as my handle.
Let’s see… about me? One of the nicest back-hand complements I ever received was from an Aerospace and Defense partner I was working for at the time. He told me one day I was the most Eclectic S.O.B. he had ever met.
I was the nerdy kid with glasses who showed up every Wednesday night at the local YMCA to shoot .22 rimfire competition, and continued it through high school via the ROTC program. During that time, I was also taking organ and piano lessons, taught myself guitar, and got my first job in a music store teaching guitar and keyboard.
My parents never allowed me to have a firearm, but they didn’t mind if I had a cartridge collection. Of course, nobody in any gun show would sell that nerdy kid with glasses a real gun, but nobody cared about him buying ammunition. Consequently, I ended up with all kinds of wacky things like a 20mm anti-tank round, a 25mm Hotchkiss round, and lots of standard ammunition. My mother made me drill a hole in the cases of the scarier ones and remove the powder, but I still have them.
They wouldn’t let me have a real gun, but they gave me a Genuine Sears / Crosman 126 .22 pumper that I used to shoot for hours in the basement. It’s been resealed twice now, but it still shoots quite nicely, especially with JSB 15 grain pellets.
Got a degree in music and taught myself electronics by reading magazines in the bathroom. Learned enough about it to pass the electronics aptitude test for IBM in the early 70’s and had careers in hardware, software development, education / course development, aerospace & defense consulting, and business analysis. I used my music degree by playing in a rock band for the better part of 16 years while I worked my Day Job. Retired last year after 43 years of service. Shot that model 126 in basements and garages the whole time.
I bought a Daisy 753 in the early 90’s and decided that plinking AND target shooting were my two favorite passions. Added a Crosman here and there, but pretty much stuck with the 126 and the 753. Still shooting them as we speak.
Last year, I found a Benjamin PCP pump in a discount store for $35, brand new. It didn’t work, so rather than return it, I learned how to reseal it and got it working. My wife let me buy a .22 Discovery to go with it, and it’s been downhill from there (!). Started rebuilding / resealing the guns in my small menagerie that stopped working over the years — a Crosman 1077 and an old 1377 and got them working good again. I’ve got an old 2200 Magnum in pieces as we speak.
The Discovery has been a love / hate relationship since I got it, mainly due to my own expectations (about now is where B.B.’s knowledge comes in). It leaked out of the box, but instead of sending it back, I decided to fix it like I did the pump. A little chamber oil into the pressure tube healed things nicely, but then I had to deal with my own expectations about fit, finish, and accuracy.
It didn’t shoot a 1/2″ group at 50 yards out of the box with the first ten pellets, and it drove me crazy until I digested enough B.B. knowledge to understand the deeper parts of the technology involved, and the realities of manufacturing fit and finish to that price point. Thankfully now that I’ve played sponge, it’s more love than hate these days. I’m a lot calmer, because I have a much better understanding of what’s required to accomplish a goal like 1/2″ groups at 50 yards.
My heart went out to B.B. when I read his series on the Taurus PT1911 pistol he picked up, because I’ve lived that entire story many times in my life. And just like he wrote, I’ve never regretted learning how to make something better instead of simply sending it back for another one.
My newest passion? Teaching myself to shoot pistol. THAT’S why I was literally jumping out of my skin, waiting for B.B. to finish this review.
There! Did I answer your question? :o)
Dave
Dave,
Answer it? I say you did,.. and the some! 😉 I admire your drive to study and learn. It is good to hear that you are not new to shooting as well. That does help a lot. I found the blog about 3 years ago and have been hooked ever since. My first purchase was a 92FS pistol, followed by a TX200 and a LGU, both in .22 and springers. Then the M-rod in .25 customized with a RAI stock. Finally the Maximus in .22. I like them all, but my favorite has become the Maximus for it’s light weight, feel, looks, handling and performance. Oh, the 499 and a 75th. Red Ryder.
My shooting time seems limited, so I opted for the Shoebox pump and Guppy tank. Fill and go and very enjoyable and convenient.
Like you, I have taught myself many things. The majority of my background is mechanics with a good does of QC later. Since a small kid, I have always torn into things wanting to know the how’s and why’s. That is a trait that can serve a person well in life.
Sorry for the delay in response. It appears the you posted at about the exact time that I logged off. I am for sure an early to bed and real early to rise type.
Welcome again and looking forwards to seeing you around.
Chris
Dennis got inch and a quarter groups at 10 yards with the SIG P320.
Coduece,
The caption below the IPSC target image in Dennis’ report does say that (and I had to go re-read the article to make sure). But if you look at the paragraph above the image, Dennis says 20 shots went into 2.01 inches, and then he goes into Accounting Mode to identify smaller sub-groups.
My take on the accounting method of scoring is that he would not be consistently able to put 10 rounds into 1.25″ and 5 into .75″ in a repeatable manner simply by shooting one out of the box. However, he could consistently put 20 into 2.0″ out of the box, and in that 20, there would be significantly smaller sub-groups. If you remove the accounting description of the 20, then overall, his results are pretty consistent to what B.B. reported (B.B. implied that with more practice, his 2.5″ groups would shrink).
This is my take on both reviews. Out of the box, it looks like it will make a fine training gun for general draw, presentation and rapid fire practice at 7 meters. Also, as long as I do my part correctly, I’ll be able to nail soda cans via slow fire ten meter shooting all day long, since that 2 inch group is smaller than the width of a soda can. That works for me.
The icing on the cake? I’ve known for decades that what lights my candle is Taking A Broke Thing And Fixing It. The definition of the word Broke is as broad as stars in the sky, and if I decide that Broke means 2 inch groups should be 1.5 inches or less at 10m, then I’ll tear into it, research things, try things, replace things, cry over things, curse things with a Mighty Curse, and generally have a grand old time as I’m doing it. I might Get It, or it might Get Me, but it’s okay either way. At the end, I’ll know a ton more than I did going into it, and I’ll use it for the next struggle.. A more philosophical way of saying it is that it isn’t the destination, it’s the journey.
Dave
Honestly I didn’t mean to instigate a diatribe. My respect for B.B., his knowledge,and abilities is as broad and deep as anyone’s. my apologies.
Coduece,
HAH! I’m the one that needs to apologize to you if it sounded like a diatribe. The teacher in me jumped out. I didn’t mean for it to sound so forceful. Sorry about that.
Dave
N p,we’re all in this airgun fraternity together. I say we airgun buffs have a big shin dig somewhere centrally located, and put a face with a handle.
Divoots,
Welcome to the party!
Yes, the journey is discovery and being. Very Tao. Joseph Campbell said, “If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it’s not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That’s why it’s your path.”
Michael
So, I stumbled upon this today, not exactly airgun related, but a relatively famous instagram person died this week. The cause? Her whipped cream thing broke and hit her in the chest hard enough to stop her heart. It’s tertiary, but the part that fueled the whipped cream maker is literally a 12g NO2 cartridge, which one would be hard pressed to tell apart from a CO2. Just remember to be careful with those things folks.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/06/22/whipped-cream-dispenser-explodes-killing-french-instagram-fitness-model/?utm_term=.c0021e6abdfa
BB
While looking at youtube videos on modding Sig CO2 guns I ran across one where the shooter was using plastic BBs. I recall that you had some that were unmarked and packaged with a gun you were reviewing and that you didn’t know anymore about them(at that time at least) and there was some interest in them on this blog site so I thought I’d mention that they are called ASG Blasters. I don’t know if they are sold here as every source I found was in the UK. They sell there for around 5 pounds. If this is already widely known here I’m sorry for taking up your time.
Halfstep,
ASG uses the Blaster name for their steel BBs in the U.S. Thanks for thinking of me.
B.B.
Halfstep
I really want to get my hands on some of those plastic bb’s.
GF1′
I sent inquiries to several UK shops that sell these to see if they will ship to the US. I’ll let you know what I find out.
Halfstep
Yes please let me know what you find out. Will be waiting to hear.
GF1,
Both of these companies emailed me that they ship to the US. If you google “blaster plastic bbs” you’ll see both of them listed in the results. Their current price for a 1000 count bottle including shipping is approx: pullthetrigger.co.uk – $13.76 shootingandscuba.co.uk – $11.50. It will change as the currency exchange rate changes and the first one said they use paypal. I wonder if PA would be willing to carry these? (hint,hint)
Halfstep
Thanks for that. And that’s a pretty good price. Especially with shipping included. 500 of the plastic bb’s would be comparable to a tin of cheaper pellets at 500 count.
And I do think I will get some from the place that accepts pay pal. Think I’ll get a couple thousand just for the heck of it.
And yes totally agree. Wish Pyramyd AIR would carry them.
GF1,
You’re welcome.
Just bought a couple of co2 blowback replicas and I may try some in them at some point. Let me know how your experience goes if you do order some.
Halfstep
Will do.
I got some multi-pump guns I want to try them in. As well as some Co2 pistols.
GF1
Which pistols. Mine’s the S&W 40 m&p and the Sig 226 pellet and bb which has been a ball I might add !
Halfstep
I have these two. And the Python is actually pretty accurate out to about 20 yards if I do my part shooting pellets out of it. The ISSC M22 is a blow back bb pistol. It has a nice blow back too when it shoots.
/product/colt-python-357-co2-pellet-bb-revolver?m=4060
/product/issc-m-22-co2-air-pistol?m=3773
Ouch
Yep trigger control. I think I just mentioned that in a recent comment about shooting a air rifle standing unsupported.
Alot of things need payed attention to when you don’t have your gun supported on a rest. Well you do have to pay attention on a bench too. But more so not bench resting.
Do some practice shooting a air rifle standing unsupported. Then bench rest it afterwards and see what happens to your groups. Check your previous bench resting groups to your bench resting groups after standing unsupported. Bet you will see some things you were not aware of before that in you hold and trigger pull. And among other things.
I know this is drastically off subject but I think it’s something to think about.
One of the R/C air plane catalog websites is doing something really cool for the youths and R/C flying.
First I should say that the world of R/C flying has caught up with the modern world. For some time actually. Now days people buy pre-built planes made of balsa wood and covered with cool coverings of different design patterns and colors and such. Well among other materials.
So really no kit building like in the older days. Back throughout time you picked a kit for your skill level at the time. Then built and covered it yourself as you liked and chose a engine and radio and props and so on. Now it’s pre-selected packages mostly. No learning how to put it all together. Just buy and fly.
Well that company has put together a program that helps kids learn how to build and redisign a famous classic older kit that has been around for years and has taken many forms over the years. Now they are teaching the kids how to design and understand what that plane is and what things mean about the plane and the rest of the componants. Then of course fly their variant of that old classic plane. They will even have advance projects going into college.
Now to me that’s cool stuff. That’s how to get the kids off the couch and involved. Maybe they will actually have a understanding of how that plane and system works and could make a difference later on in life.
The Embark and school programs are cool. It’s very important programs like this happen. And I should note another program that I guess is still going on. I think it’s called take a kid fishing.
I can’t even speak enough words to say how important it is to teach our kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews and so on about these things that need passed on to generations.
Told you it was way off subject.
No Gunfun1,
You are not off subject or topic you are spot on, it is a very different world we live in now than when we were youngsters and I am not sure that it is a good thing.
Taking the kids of today and teaching them some of the simpler things in life that we took for granted is a very good thing.
Technology is a great thing but sometimes it is better just to get out with other folks and have fun.
Mike
Mike
Man that take it for granted thing really makes me think now days. It’s really hard to comprehend sometimes. There was no thought about how or why we was doing something as kids. We just did what was for that time. As long as we wasn’t hurting someone or something why not do it. And then if you helped some one out. Well all the better.
But back then it seemed people encouraged learning about how and why a family did what they did. You got taught what you needed to know to do what you had to do. No laws saying that’s not acceptable or you shouldn’t be doing that. Most of the time we learned what we needed to do to survive.
But like you said. If we got the chance to have fun doing the things we learned. All the better.
Gunfun1,
I haven’t seen any of their planes overhead since we moved next door to an FAA navigation installation, but not too far away there at least used to be a club that had its own airfield where they flew 1/4 scale gas powered planes that had ten or twelve foot wingspans. It was not possible to look up and know — except for the sound difference — between a P-51 Mustang at 4000 feet or a model at 400. (And I work not far from a small airfield with Mustangs and Spitfires of the 1:1 scale variety, but you can hear those before you see ’em.)
I don’t know if there is a 1/4 model of a B-52 Stratofortress, but perhaps it would be bigger than many small 1:1 prop planes.
Michael
Michael
The 1/4 scale planes are cool. Especially with the power to weight ratios the engines make compared to the full scale planes. Very realistic flying.
And just think. Another thing that might not get taught to kids nowadays.
What about the muscle car era. That was definitely something that should be taught about the American heritage in schools. It’s a part of history that many where involved in but not many of those people left to tell about it.
It’s a shame how things keep getting pushed aside anymore.
It’s like we are not wanted to to tell our kids about how things use to be. To many important ways of the American Life are fading. The programs to advance kids n the things we use to know is very important. There’s alot of smart people out there still that know this stuff. It’s just learning how to make it continue is what’s needed now.
Gunfun1,
I hear ya. I just got a new cell phone. A flip-phone. No touch screen. No Wi-Fi. No junk. No contract. 800 minutes for a year, and I’ll use only 200.
You talk like the machinist you are. Highly skilled heavy machine repair, to further your point, has more openings than qualified applicants in the U.S. Or ask anybody under 25 if they know what “Tool-and-Die” is.
I do find that young adults are generally curious about a lot of stuff from a mere 30 or 40 years ago, however. That youngster will ask you what tool-and-die is after saying, “I have no idea what it is.” They are described unfairly by we old fogies, I feel.
They do respect that I’m not insulting to them and that I’m candid about stuff, and that makes them much more likely to listen and ask questions. We need to stop golden-aging everything. The good old days were old, but they were not all good or all bad, just different.
For example, I had a couple students ask me how 8-Tracks worked. So I explained them to ’em, the good: portable tunes in the car or on a boombox! And I told them the bad. Horrible audio quality, songs would get interrupted for the head (explained magnetic heads to them, too.) to move, etc.
And muscle cars. Gorgeous, strong, sexy, powerful, the throaty roar of a souped V-8, acceleration that makes your molars ache. Slap/Slop Sticks! The bad? Terrible mileage and emissions, unsafe, good for maybe 100K miles if you replaced or rebuilt the transmission once. Low-tech tires. And ultimately, today there are customized Japanese and Korean sports cars that are just as fast, more reliable, longer lasting, and certainly no more dangerous, perhaps even safer, although if you care about safety at all, you’re not going to push any of those cars to its limits on the open road.
Michael
Michael
My complete thought is that I want the kids to know what was. But now know how to fit it in with what is.
When knowledge is grasped with enthusiasm you will more than likely have better results.
I like to think the kids could put there take on what was and expand it into the the technology of today. And I mean in ways that what was could be done in ways that could make something better with less involved to make it happen.
Lik the RC planes. Design that same 40 something year old plane in a way that the kit is easier to build and is stronger but lighter. And could fly longer with less radio and planes receiver batteries. Or more efficient wing and fuselage design that makes the plane fly more efficiently but still resembles that classic air plane.
And back to the original purpose. Have kids get involved with things. And have a company inspire it. Not a organization.
Michael,
This is the biggest one I’ve seen. It’s too small for 1/4 scale, but it’s still big enough to require a decent sized truck to haul it around.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbITzCI2AU0
Dave
Incredible!
Dave, now you got me doing it! Check this one out while I try to get a particular scene from Dr. Strrangelove out of my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elfj4ytDAJc
Michael
And this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZeGylHqo7M
HAH! Yah, the aerospace and defense guys used to live, eat, breathe, and sleep this kind of stuff.
I always thought there was a kind of paradox with the bigger ones — the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly and maneuver (up to a certain point). It’s the little ones that make you crazy, as they are a lot harder to control. Turns out, the atmosphere doesn’t really scale all that well. Go figure, eh?
Dave
Dave
Just love the RC plane stuff.
And now for something completely different:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knb3qNq-Uho
Michael
And more cool stuff.
Divoots
Cool stuff.
To further expand on GF1 post I agree whole heartedly that in our society’s current state that there is very little training or teaching in schools or at home even that is in no way preparing our youth for the cruel and unforgiving world we are leaving them to grow up and live in.
I know I was taught gun safety at a very early age starting at 4 years old and by the age of 8 I was hunting with a 12ga shotgun by myself with my fathers permission and I bought the gun with my grass cutting money. My best friends were hunting with me as well and we all had shotguns or 22lr rifles as well as our air guns.
I was also taught how to think for myself by being allowed make mistakes so that I would learn from them and not repeat the same ones twice. I had to work for what I wanted so it was taken care of to make it last. I still have that shotgun some 50 plus years later. it is understandable to not want your kids to do without or fail at what they want to do but some failure and mistakes have to be allowed to be able to learn and retain that knowledge gained.
The problem as I see it is our youth is not being taught what is needed to be a productive and contributing part of the very society they will have to live in the rest of their lives. There is far to much coddling and hand outs for non productive behavior that our youth expects that they don’t have to account for their actions or be held responsible for them. Also when are so called leaders and people in roles of authority are not held accountable for their actions that result in accident, mistakes or tragedy. We are sending a very strong message to our youth that they can do as they please with no consequences or punishments placed upon them.
Our schools have succumb to the dumbing down syndrome that our corrupt leaders of this country have so slyly inserted into mainstream education in todays schools. It is a sad thing to see college student asked very basic questions during the last years election that 95 percent of them could not answer correctly. The answers to the question were on a middle school level of basic education. These will be the leaders of this world in the future. Scary for me to even consider.
Its very refreshing to see some companies trying to engage todays youth in activities that create more thought and creative intuition than sitting behind a game console or PC playing games that serve no useful purpose other than to dull the lines between reality and fiction or cause the youth to think what they do on the game is capable of being put into their actual daily lives and routines.
I am doing my part to teach my grandkids what our school system is unwilling to teach them in this very messed up system we call education.
Just my 2 cents worth.
BD
Buldawg
Glad you posted. Well said and thanks.
Things do need to be in place to teach our kids. Alot of important history and knowledge being lost now days. In way to many ways.
Company’s would benefit more than they can imagine if they would put a program in place to get the kids involved.
Just got to add.
How often do you hear kids be proud and enthusiastic about what they learned and did and tell about it and spread it to other kids. Maybe some. But not much.
Just wonder if they really would even be excited about the things we just talked about now days. And again. How do you really make that interesting for kids now. Do something that they themselves learned and accomplished. And most importantly are proud to pass on and be happy to do.
I also agree with Steven g in that the only truly safe way to prevent ADs is thru education and training period. I never have and never will trust any one else to handle a gun safely. Especially any govt or gun maker that thinks they are smarter or capable of making a gun foolproof since no guns shoots anyone ever by itself. There has to be a person that has the gun in their hand or on their possession that is handled improperly for it to fire.
Making it DAO only serves only to create a false sense of security in the hands of someone that probably has no business with it in the first place. To even think that a LEO has not had countless hours of hands on training with their sidearm is scary as hell to me. They should be required to demonstrate the highest level of competency to be allowed to carry any weapon. Even then that is no guarantee that they are competent when their life or those of other depend on that training.
I for one do not and will not ever own a DAO only pistol period. My pistols are either revolvers with a hammer or semi autos with a hammer that can be cocked to make it a single action pistol if so desired.
It is only the person holding the gun that can and should be blamed for any AD while they had said gun drawn from a holstered or any other position that said gun is transported in by that person.
I for one am glad I live in a open carry/ concealed carry state that takes the second amendment seriously and does not infringe on it in any way. We are also a castle doctrine/stand your ground state as well. I was raised to shoot first and ask questions later.
BD
Well said, BD. My personal EDC is my Indian Arms .380 – a Walther PPK knockoff, because of the DA to SA, it’s stainless steel, and has been totally reliable for 40 years. After I polished the feed ramp I don’t remember ever having a jam or feeding problem.
Larry from Algona
Hey Larry
I either carry a Colt Mustang 380 for the concealed carry weapon and a Ruger P89 for my open carry weapon. Both have been gone thru and have never failed to feed in the 20 plus years of owning them.
When I really want to get attention I will put my 77 model S&W model 29 Dirty Harry special in blued 8 3/8 ” barrel in an old western style low slung holster with the cartridge loops in the belt of course filled with 44 mag rounds.
BD
BD – I’d also like to say I agree with your philosophy of trigger action in regards to safety. I like the Colt Mustang but what appeals to me about the Walther style action is that first DA trigger pull in place of the “cocked and locked” method used by the colt. For everyone that gripes about the lack of safety, where is the safety on a revolver? I don’t even like automatic safeties on airguns. I think you where totally right about that false sense of security. Even the bear trap safety to me is false security. Plus I miss the ability to uncock an air rifle if desired. I may have bought my last air rifle tho, on B.B.’s recommendation I got a Walther Terrus. It really brings back memories of the older German air rifles like the FWB 124/127.
Larry
I have always been taught to treat every gun as being loaded until I confirm otherwise even if you just unloaded it in front of me I still double check by cycling the action and dropping the magazine if it has not already been done. Never to safe IMO and doing such it becomes habit and instinct that requires no thought.
I realize the colt is not a DA semi auto but I have practiced and carried it so long in my back pocket with a round in the chamber uncocked. It is second nature for me to cock the hammer back and take the safety off as it is coming out of my pocket so it ready to fire when the sight picture is acquired. So it being a SA style semi just means there is more practice required to commit to muscle memory the steps for it to be ready to fire before its raised to do so.
The safety on a revolver is that the hammer has to be cocked for it to fire either by a DA style or SA and cocking the hammer manually. I agree that it is not really a true safety since if the gun is dropped and it lands on the hammer it will fire. Some revolvers have a blocking bar that can be rotated into position between the hammer and firing pin with the hammer half cocked preventing the hammer from being able to strike the firing pin if dropped.. But the only true way for it to be safe is to leave the chamber empty that is lined up with the hammer. Or buy one without a hammer at all which I despise completely since it can be only DA.
I to hate the auto safeties on any gun not just air guns since it takes the control away from me and as you say they can fail just as easy as they are set. The beartraps I see as necessary to prevent the idiots from having fingers chopped off by careless misuse and the fact that in this day and age where one can sue for any reason even if it is clearly their own ignorance in the safe operation of said gun. It give the manufactures some sense of security in that it should prevent loss of digits if used correctly.
I do prefer to be able to decock the rifle as well so a beartrap is a bit of an annoyance. I do not own a Terrus but do own a 124 and can agree that it is one of my go to guns for a lazy day of plinking out back . It just like I said that the world is not even close to what we grew up in anymore. I do prefer the simpler times of long ago.
BD
BD
Amen,
But I still prefer to be able to uncock without the beartrap – hold that barrel down!
Again, don’t you think it encourages people to neglect safety?
Larry from Algona
Larry
I agree on the being able to uncock when desired. Yes having a beartrap does make people less conscience of staying safe due to the inherent nature to trust it to prevent lost digits.
The Field target club I shoot in has members that will not let you forget to hold the barrel or lever in one hand while loading with me being one of those. I would rather be frowned at than have to rush to the ER with the severed digit on ice.
BD
BD
I’ve found a good periodic safety review is to go plinking with my Chinese B3-2. No safety, no beartrap underlever where you have to risk a finger or thumb loading a pellet. Also, with the direct sear I expect the sear to slip at any time just like my Beeman RS1. Believe me that thing scares me to death but boy, am I safe when I handle it. The icing on the cake is that it is remarkably accurate for a $50 gun.
Larry from Algona
Larry
I to have a Chinese finger trap in a B3-2 also so am well aware of the lack of safety for the shooter. They do shoot pretty good for a 50 buck gun. Its the only one I have that you have to be on guard at all times.
BD
Hi BB,
My expertise pales in comparison to your trade-craft, but I have done multiple evolutions through Navy Small Arms School, San Diego, under the tutelage of Army Sniper Dave Melton, as well as a 3-day combat scenario course presented by Huntington Beach PD. My handgun skills far exceed my rifle skills.This being said, I purchased two SIGs from Pyramid, a 226 and a 250. I have decided to carry them in lieu of my S&W .357 Airweight 7-shot and/or GLOCK 9mm for legal reasons. As between carrying the SIGs for self-defense (i.e., close-quarters combat), there is a definite advantage to having a CO2 cartridge at-the-ready to arm with a twist of a thumb screw as opposed to having to install one through the rear of the grip, and having to firmly squeeze the grip to arm it. I wear a tactical camo shoulder holster with mag pouches into which I’ve stuffed 8 magazines and two CO2 cylinders. This is a lot of firepower for most close-quarters gunfights. All of this being said, I’ve tried a variety of ammo in these pistols. Naturally I wanted to load everything up with the BlueFlame ballistic tip or Crosman #LF1785 bullets, but neither works in these SIGs. If you try them, they’ll jam the magazine in the weapon. The Crosman ammo can’t even be inserted! I next tried Nobel 500 Superpoint 8.2 gr. ammo. It worked well at 15 to 20 feet, penetrating a frozen block of modeling clay to the full length of the pellet. I next tried GAMO Raptor ammo. It did not perform as well as the Nobel. The GAMO ammo does not stay seated as well as lead rounds in the rotary magazine. The last ammo I tried was CROSMAN Destroyer 7.4 gr. which loads very securely into the magazine, feeds almost perfectly during sustained rapid fire, and penetrates the frozen block of modeling clay as described above. This is the ammo I’ve decided upon, as I feel it is capable of inflicting significant injury in a close-quarters gunfight. I sure would NOT want to have 16 rds of Destroyer ammo pumped into me at close range. The moral of all this drivel is, the most expensive ammo isn’t necessarily the best.
idefendm,
Welcome to the blog.
B.B.
Idefendom,
I am a bit confused here,…. Are you carrying pellet pistols for self defense? Or,… just for self defense (practice)?
I think all would agree that they would not want to be hit with pellets at close range. I also think that (no one) here would agree to carrying a pellet pistol for self defense.
Chris, I agree. I always considered that I was just barely having a defensive arm with my .380.
Larry
Chris U
That’s what I was wondering.
It’s going to hurt I’m sure. But the way we say it in my neck of the woods. It’s probably just going to piss that person off.
Definitely not a good idea in my opinion. A firearm is what I want for self defense. I don’t another situation to even think about happening after I pull the trigger. The way I see it is it better be over at that point.
For one thing you don’t know what the other person could be carrying also. That’s a drastically dangerous situation to be in. No playing around at that point in time. Especially if I’m trying to live.
I gathered the same info from Idefendom;s post that he use a pellet gun as a form of self defense. he also stated something about it being due to “legal reasons” so not sure about that either.
it just reinforces my stand on the fact that that other country on are extreme west coast is a place I have no desire to ever visit and definitely not live.
I can say for myself that if someone ever tried to stop me from attacking with a pellet gun they had better aim for my eyes because if I can still see them I will be the last thing they ever see again. I would wager to say that while yes the pellets would hurt they would only be skin deep and not stop or even slow down the majority of attackers in a CQG scenario. They would not slow me down at all. I am with LarryMo in that I feel under powered carrying my colt 380 but not as much as I would with a pellet gun.
When at Harley we had a former police officer that in his 20 plus years on the job he had been shot by criminals carrying 25 and 380 caliber hand guns. He always wore a heavy bikers leather jacket for the main reason “before the readily available bullet proof vests of today” that the bullets he was hit with bounced off the leather jacket leaving only bruising and sore muscles from the impact to his body.
I have had far worse things happen to me in bike wrecks while dirt biking and have always been able to make my way home with broken bones and severe road rash that would make being hit by a pellet gun at point blank range a walk in the park.
A realistic pellet pistol for use a practice aid is very effective for developing muscle memory but never should be substituted for a real firearm in a life or death situation.
BD
Buldawg
Can’t say nothing more but yes. Agree with what you said.
GF1
Yes it makes you wonder about some peoples thought processes.
BD
Buldawg
A big yes.
This was talked about in 2013, airguns are not firearms, not useful for self defence. Perhaps a firm grip on a 2240 with a metal breach could be a useful hand to hand combat club, but not as a defensive gun. See; /blog/2013/02/dont-use-airguns-for-self-defense/
Michael
Yep.
And the 2240. Still kind of light for pistol whipping.
Ok, so use a framing hammer.
Mike
Or that. But keep the air guns out of those situations.
If you are carrying a air gun I think maybe your setting your self up for a problem.
The hammer might just go over better if there ever was a trail. But then again speculation on my part. The lawyers tend to twist it up however they want.
All I know is I’m keeping the air gun use for enjoyment. Not all that other stuff. There’s just to much of the insignificant use of firearms as it is.
I just wonder how people can think something could work out. Maybe they really don’t comprehend the outcome of a situation. Or they don’t value life.
Yes airguns are for fun, not defence. Unless you are attacked by a group of feral soda cans I would not use airguns for defence.
Mike
Yep.
But I hear them feral cans come in packs up to 30 at a time.
They are definitely on high priority alert at my house all the time.
Shoot em on sight is what happens around my neck of the woods. 🙂
Shoot first, ask questions later.
Mike
In more ways than one.
Well, now that we’ve welcomed Idefendm to the blog, maybe he deserves to be heard out. I wonder about the legal reasons. I have a cousin in Texas that cannot legally carry a firearm – or even possess one. When I was there for a visit he asked me about using an airgun for home defense. I’m afraid I wasn’t much help but I sure felt his pain. I guess the only thing I could tell him was that I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by six.
Larry
Larry
Controversial subject for sure.
Curious to see what he says also. Hope there is a good reason why he chose a air gun. We’ll see.
Using the link Mike in Atl provided, I went back and reread all 136 comments on this subject. There’s no doubt self defense is something we are all concerned about and also no doubt that there are some people that just cannot legally make use of firearms.
I’ve noticed that those of us that can and choose to use firearms legally can be somewhat imperious to any query regarding the use of pellet guns for self defense. What’s a person that fears for their safety to do? And, what are we doing to help? Are we not here as a community of like-minded individuals encouraging each other regardless of any comments “off topic”?
I hope we haven’t turned Idefendm off of the blog completely.
My apologies for sounding like a preacher.
Larry
Yep and we are waiting for his response.
Larry,
I suppose that something,.. is better than nothing. I am reminded of the ol’ adage of,.. “bringing a knife to a gun fight”. I felt that is was imperative to speak up for anyone pondering such tactics,… just so that they realize that they are in fact at a (distinct) disadvantage.
Add to that,.. that the owners of medium caliber firearms that have spoken up and still feel that they are somewhat disadvantaged.
Add to that,…. that pellet pistol is every bit as real as the real firearm to any law enforcement officer. Just watch the evening news if you question that comment.
Proceed with caution. Better yet,.. avoid any people and situations in which you are forced to brandish anything weapon like.
As for anyone legally impaired from owning a firearm,… in many cases that is probably a good thing. For others that have been on “the straight and narrow” for sometime/longtime,… one might wonder? Mute point really. Gun rights are definitely not heading that way. Besides,.. criminals can and (will) get guns anytime they want.
All I can say is to stack whatever odds you can muster in your favor,.. regardless of the situation.
Chris, I agree 100% with every one of your points. I just try my best to look at both sides of an argument – I’ve found my eyes opened before by doing so.
Larry
And on Chris u’s point.
Why can’t a person legally own a firearm anyway. You know what I mean.
And yes. The criminals will get firearms. One way or another.
On that note. If someone is going to enter my house to steal or whatever is on their mind. In my opinion they ain’t thinking to logically. Matter of fact who knows what their thinking if they are brave enough to attempt that.
Gaurentee you I won’t have a air gun in my hand when that happens. They will not be exiting my house the way they came in. If a person is like that they apparently have no respect. And if my life and my family’s life is in danger it’s just not going to be a air gun that I will protect them with. When it’s a life threatening situation. It’s all business at that time. No playing.
Like you said. Better to be alive and tryed by 12 than dead and carried by 6.
Larry,
I was just pondering ol’ model citizen Gramp’s down the road that messed up in one way or another many years ago,… which now has the local drug/meth/opiate addicted punks eye balling his house for a quick “score”. (Fictitious situation in my world),… but you have to think,… ol’ Gramps has no way to defend himself. Add in that ol’ Gramps lives in the inner big city,.. and the stakes go way up.
Yes,.. an opened mind and eyes go along way to keeping proper perspective.
Chris U. and Gunfun1
I suppose most of us here on the blog are in agreement on the points Chris listed. Those of us of the Senior persuasion are probably jaded enough with life that even societal laws are not sacrosanct – You’ll pry my gun… etc. I think most of this group has spent many of these last years struggling with developing a moral code that they plan on meeting their maker with that supersedes that which society has to offer. Hence the I’ll let you try me before burying me.
Personally, I am perfectly legal here with carrying concealed but it was not so many years ago that I lived in an area of downtown Seattle where I found it prudent to carry even before I was licensed.
Larry
Larry
Probably true in more cases than people say.
Be it air guns or firearms.
There are alot more firearm choices that can be made for self defense than air guns.
Don’t get me wrong. There are powerful big caliber air guns now days. But they don’t fill the bill you know what I mean.
A self defense gun needs to be reliable. It needs to be able to fire successive shots one after the other if the need arises. Also it has to knock down the attacker. People that are shot do tend to try to make that last shot of their living will before it is their end. So even when you hit your opponent they could still be firing if so equiped.
But back to air guns. Even though we now have big bore high powered pcp air guns. And there is pcp’s that can shoot rapid fire. From what I seen they are not reliable as in firing all the time to protect life. And they are not by any means concealed or carry guns. I had some different types of semi-auto type pcp guns which was rifles.
I can tell you from exsperiance they would not be my choice for self defense.
And again on your last statement. You carryed before you was legal. So who knows what beple have behind their backs nowdays. You know what I mean.
Right, Gunfun! It also makes life interesting. I’ve been known to frequent some pretty shady bars (still do) and I can tell you everyone is very polite and respectful of each other because of that behind the back thing. Now, that’s my kind of crowd!
Larry
Larry
And think about that one magic word.
Respect
That makes a difference more ways than one can imagine. A lot of things could be a different outcome if respect was thought about.
Larry
All true.
And you know I’m sure we all live them times growing up in one way or another.
All I know is I didn’t make it this long by accident.
Yes respect is not only to be given and received. But definitely to earn.
Well, I see I’ve been censored. I’m a big boy now, so when I see I’ve made a mistake I’m willing to own up and try to make amends.
First: My apologies to our gracious host. B.B., after many years of self-introspection I realize that I have a tendency to push the envelope, a trait that I find extremely difficult to shake.
Second: My apologies to anyone that may have seen my post and felt offended
Larry from Algona
Larry,
No need to apologize. It’s just that many parents share this blog with their children, so I have to make sure it’s suitable for everyone. 😉
B.B.
Larry
It will be all right. I had to go to the back of the class and sit in the corner before too. 😉
And I could of swore you had a post before my last one last night.
Oh well as they say. Live and learn.
GF1,
Your at the front now??? I had been wondering where you have been. 😉 Kidding aside,… my teacher’s preferred to put the “troubled ones” at the front of the class and made it a point to direct random questions at them. GULP! 🙁
Now,.. one of two things will happen,… you will assuredly confirm to the rest of the class that you are in fact,.. a/and will be,.. a dummy,… OR,.. you will at least make some effort to study a bit and at least be able to get the answer in the “ball park”.
Thinking back,.. that one class did have a pretty awesome view (at the back) of some really nice woods. A young fellows thoughts can be known to wander when faced with such a dilemma. Mmmm? Roman history?,.. or pondering that squirrel or bunny you see off in the distance? 😉 Well that,… and the girls. 🙂
Chris U
Trust me. Back then the last thing on my mind was what was going on in that classroom. Couldn’t wait everyday for that bell to ring for the end of the day. Freedom finally is what I thought. Well of course till I got home and helped with the chores around the farm. After that it was on the dirt bike with the fish’n pole strapped to one side and the gun on the other side. Then come home for supper then back out till about 9:30 or so. And do it again the next day. Of course that’s when I was around 10 years old. Stayed out later as I got older. My parents didn’t care as long as I got done around the house what was needed. And I got up for school the next day. But you know what. I graduated a half year early. And it wasn’t cause I was trying to be smart. It was so I could be free. So I thought anyway. 😉
Larry,
🙂 Care to do an “edited” version? From your previous comments,… I am sure that it was on point.
Naw, Chris. Thank you anyway, sir. My spleen is vented and sometimes it’s better to just let that sleeping dog lie. (I love to mix metaphors because, well, it’s just wrong.) Besides, that ship has sailed.
Larry
Larry,
Understood. ( I, as well, am prone to using,.. over using???, metaphors) See ya’ around. Back to the ol’ grind in the AM.
Well, guys, I live in CA where it is a misdemeanor to carry a concealed firearm, and a separate misdemeanor to carry a loaded one — without a permit of course. The so-called Virginia State Troopers multi-state permit is NOT recognized in CA. CCWs are not readily handed out here. I had one for many years, but decided to let it lapse. Those of you who are fortunate enough to live in states where carrying a gun is a God-given right are VERY lucky. If you shoot someone in self-defense in CA, there is going to be legal drama. Ask me how I know? I’ve been a criminal defense trial lawyer for 42 years. If you’re carrying a handgun here for self-defense, you should probably be wearing a body cam. Even then, no statement to the cops! You have the right to remain silent. Exercise it! Like W.C. Fields said: “Talk’s cheap. Whiskey costs money.” You can yap about shooting an armed assailant or adversary, but if/when you actually do it, try to be somewhere other than California. All the hype about high-powed high-capacity pistols as defensive weapons is interesting, but over the decades I have represented a substantial number of shooters and murderers who have have caused devastating effects to their victims with .22 caliber weapons using LR HP ammo. The round obviously doesn’t have the stopping power or heavier grain bullets, but it can, under certain circumstances, kill someone plenty dead.The damn bullet bounces around in the body like a ping-pong ball tearing the crap out of everything. If you’re carrying a loaded/concealed handgun in CA without a CCW, and God forbid get in a gunfight, it’s almost a given you’re going to lose your weapon, and incur thousands in legal fees unless you were protecting a 90-year-old granny from being gang raped and beaten to death by gang members — on video. Now, in my home, it’s a whole different deal. Massive/sustained firepower! Meanwhile, I’ll carry the little toy SIGS. If some Highway Patrolman confiscates one of them, I promise not to cry. I won’t be going to jail for carrying them concealed/loaded, I won’t be posting bail, and I won’t have to spend thousands of dollars hiring some fool lawyer to represent me. 🙂
Idefendm,
Idefendm,… I get it. Very clever. (Thank you) for the added insight. Please do not get the wrong idea from all of us here on the blog. You seem more well versed than most and should be, given your profession. If you do however want to learn more in depth on the topic of airguns,…. you can not have landed on a better site or better people.
Chris
Try this: http://try.usconcealedcarry.net/uscca-6things-facebook/?tID=5903644055c31.
B.B.,
Thank You! I can now say that based on your review, I am now the proud owner of a P320 ASP. Went out with my son-in-law and grandson on a “Boys Day” last weekend, where we went to pawn shops, tool stores, gun shops, and ate food that was really bad for us (chili-dogs with onion rings, anyone?). Grandma, Mom, and the granddaughter went off on a “Girls Day”, where they ate salads and other proper food and shopped for clothes. Then we meet at the end of the day, had dinner, and watched a movie together. Good Times!
The Boys went to one of the larger local gun stores that had a large and significant Sig Sauer display. Lo and Behold, they had two P320 ASP pistols; one in black and the other in Desert Tan. After about 20 minutes of agonizing and soul searching, I plopped down my hard earned allowance and walked out with the black one.
Just as you noted, I also experienced occasional jams with non-Sig pellets, but the Sig pellets loaded and shot just fine. I also experienced the partial-belt advance if you started squeezing the trigger but did not fire. So far, I’ve chalked off all of the hiccups to Getting-To-Know-It-Better and I just keep plugging along.
Actually SHOOTING it (as opposed to reading about it) has been an extremely humbling experience. Remember, this is the Nerdy Kid who shot competition rimfire rifles but has absolutely zip experience with a pistol, competition or otherwise. Of course, that was the whole reason for the purchase in the first place — phase one is to teach myself to shoot minute of soda can accuracy at 7-odd meters with a training pistol. Phase two? Dunno yet. Still working on Phase One.
I’ve read all of your how-to-shoot-a-pistol blogs and initially I figured it would be an easy struggle to undertake. Boy was I wrong! I’ve been experimenting with different variations on your 1911 hold mixed with a two handed stance with fair to middling success, so I have a couple of questions. They are:
1.) Given how beautifully this thing mimics recoil, is your 1911 hold the method of choice, or would a two handed weaver-like stance work better for simple plinking and active target shooting (one handed 10 meter competition is not part of the picture……yet)? The blow back definitely rattles my cage in a positive way, but I’m not sure I’ve got a lucid plan for working blow back into my shooting skills.
2.) Would my personal dilemma make a good subject for a new teach-me-how-to-shoot blog, as in Novice Buys A Training Pistol (Thinking He Knew Where To Start), And Is Finding Out He’s Not Really Sure If He’s Starting Out Properly After All? I’d love it if my trials and tribulations served to help others in similar situations.
To recap, my goals are to — A.) Shoot reasonably well at 7-10 meters at soda cans and other active targets for the sheer thrill of it, B.) Occasionally punch holes in paper targets for score, so I have an objective way to gauge my progress, and C.) NOT learn any bad habits while accomplishing A and B that I would have to unlearn, should I decide to actually shoot 10 Meter competition some day.
Thanks!
Dave
Dave,
The Weaver stance or some variation of it is better for action targets. My one-hand hold is for bullseyes.
Number two sounds like a great idea. You already are shaping it in your mind, as the working title suggests.
On the paper punching, if you mean bullseyes, then the one-hand hold is a must, because that’s what you find in competition.
B.B.
B.B.,
I had to laugh at myself as I’ve been practicing dry firing with it, so as not to loose the sight picture on follow-through. In spite of everything I’ve ever read and everything I’ve ever been taught (rifle-oriented), I found myself flinching in anticipation of the blow back phase. And it isn’t even there, because I’m dry firing!
Most times as I complete the trigger pull, the sight picture goes completely haywire for no good reason other than I’m cringing in anticipation. Go figure, eh?
Gonna be a Loooong Learning Experience. But fun.
Dave
I mostly pass on blowbacks due to wasted gas and low shot count. I have a very nice Tanfoglio branded Co2 “target” pistol that shoots great but moving the metal slide cost too much gas, about one cart for two mags. I just stick to DAO non blowback for backyard practice.