Benjamin 700 multi-pump repeater: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2

A history of airguns

Benjamin 700
Benjamin 700 repeating BB gun.

This report covers:

  • Wrong ammunition
  • Two big clues
  • Filling the BB gun
  • The test
  • Sight-in with Daisy BBs
  • Pressure too high
  • Hornady Black Diamonds
  • Getting used to the gun
  • Daisy Match Grade shot
  • Bottom line

Today we learn how accurate the Benjamin 700 multi-pump repeating BB gun is. And we will learn a lot more than that. Let’s go!

Wrong ammunition

Some of you know how I harp on calling a BB gun a BB caliber and NOT .177/4.5mm. Because it’s not! A steel BBs is 0.171- to 0.1735-inches in diameter. It may not matter to people buying one BB gun at a discount store, but to someone like me who has to shoot oddball new and old airguns from all over the world, it makes a big difference.

The Benjamin promotional pamphlet from the 1930s says these guns (the model 600, 700 and 300) use steel Air Rifle Shot of 0.175-inches in diameter. There’s just one problem with that. As far as I can tell, nobody ever made steel Air Rifle Shot in anything but 0.171-0.1735-inches. I wondered if it was possible that the Benjamin writers of that pamphlet were as cavalier back in the 1930s as BB manufacturers are today. Did they really want us to use Air Rifle Shot that is 0.171 to 0.1735-inches in diameter and not LEAD Air Rifle Shot that is 0.175-inches? They did emphasize not using lead balls in these guns.

Two big clues

First, I measured some genuine vintage Benjamin Air Rifle Shot and found them to measure 0.172 to 0.1735-inches in diameter. Second, I tried a real 0.175-inch LEAD Air Rifle Shot in the 700 and got it jammed in the feed mechanism. That was why I had to change this past Monday’s blog. Fortunately for me lead is soft and I was able to clear the jam by tapping on the bolt lightly until the lead ball sheared and could be chambered. I then shot it out and the gun was cleared.

Benjamin shot
Sorta makes me want to pull my hair out — if I had any to pull!

So, Pilgrim, the Benjamin 700 and any other Benjamin BB repeater from that era uses a STEEL BB sized 0.171 to 0.173-inches in diameter. That allowed me to conduct today’s accuracy test — without a single mis-feed!

Filling the BB gun

You guys wanted to see what it looks like to fill the gun, so I took a short video for you. I would like to thank reader Kevin Gallagher for editing this video and getting it ready for You Tube.

The test

I then shot 5-shot groups from 10 meters, pumping the gun after every shot. After watching me pump the gun, I hope you appreciate why I shot just 5-shot groups this time. Each time I shot I had to get up from the bench and pump the gun like you see in the video. Then back to the bag and settle in again.

Before the test started I had pumped the gun 5 times, then three pumps after each shot — until that stopped working. I will get into that in a minute.

I shot the gun off a sandbag rest and naturally used the open sights that came on the gun. I had no idea where these sights would be, but since they aren’t adjustable it didn’t make much difference. I just hoped they could get me on the paper.

Sight-in with Daisy BBs

First up were Daisy Premium Grade BBs. I had hoped to just begin shooting groups, but the sights were hitting several inches below the aim point at 10 meters, so I used the first 4 shots to figure things out.

I finally settled on holding the front sight very high in the rear notch. That elevated the point of impact to an acceptable level, though it was still too low. The five BBs landed in a horizontal group measuring 1.454-inches between centers. Given how I was guesstimating during sighting, I had expected a vertical group rather than a horizontal one.

Daisy BB group
Five Daisy BBs went into this horizontal 1.454-inch group.

I was actually surprised the 700 even hit close to the bull at which I was aiming. I didn’t have high hopes for it going into the test. Maybe this wasn’t such a bad BB gun after all! Notice how clean the BB holes are. The 700 has some velocity that helps punch cleaner holes.

Pressure too high

At this point I noticed the gun was getting more air with every shot and refill. The pumps were getting harder and harder, and the pump handle started coming back out of the gun after the fill was complete. So I tried pumping just twice between shots to get it back in the groove. That proved to be the right way to go. So, from this point on I pumped two times between shots.

Hornady Black Diamonds

Naturally Hornady Black Diamonds were on my list to try. Like Mighty Mouse, I reckoned they could save the day. And they did — sort of. Five of them went into 1.318-inches, but the interesting thing was these shots landed higher on the paper — well, most of them did. And the last three shots went into that small almost-cloverleaf at the top that measures 0.361-inches between centers. That was encouraging!

Hornady BB group
Five Hornady Black Diamond BBs made this 1.381-inch group at 10 meters.

Getting used to the gun

At this point in the test I found myself starting to understand the Benjamin’s ways and to feel it better. I could “feel” when it was pumped to the right pressure. And I knew that with time I would get to be a very good shot with this gun, as I learned its quirks. My next target will show what I’m struggling to say.

Daisy Match Grade shot

The last BB I tested was the Daisy Avanti Match Grade shot. I knew they were slightly larger than the BBs that had gone before and I thought that would help with the accuracy.

And, indeed, it did help! This time the Benjamin 700 put 5 BBs in a group at 10 meters that measures 0.867-inches between centers. Not only is this a good group, I got the feeling that the more I shot the gun the better it could get. Remember, I am interpolating that front sight to get the shots to hit up by the target. If I had a good repeatable sight picture imagine what I could do.

Ananti Match group
Five Daisy Avanti Match Grade BBs went into 0.867-inches at 10 meters. This is a good group.

Bottom line

Let’s get honest for a moment. I am shooting a BB repeater that I’m pumping a different number of strokes between shots. I am guessing where the front sight goes every time I shoot. The gun I am shooting is 80+ years old. Oh, and then there is this — I’m shooting a BB gun at 10 meters instead of five! Some of you thought I forgot about that, didn’t you?

This old Benjamin 700 has truly risen to the occasion. It’s quirky, retro and classic in a crusty, dusty sort of way, but this old girl can shoot. I bought her at an airgun show for $95 and then spent $168 getting her back up and running again. Was it worth it? I think so!

211 thoughts on “Benjamin 700 multi-pump repeater: Part 3

  1. Very neat.
    That’s a lot of work fur the shot.

    On the Diana chaser from yesterday.
    I read the instruction manual, and no where in the maintenance section did it SAY install it in the grip.

    But by the photo it alludes to that is what you are to do.



      • Ed,

        That would be what I would gather as well. I do believe there is some cartridges that do contain some lube for seals and such. Even so and even if this “maintenance capsule” contained more than the normal amount,.. 500 shots would be way excessive. 5, maybe. And why upside down? Quite the oddity to be sure.

        Chris


  2. CO2 Maintenance Cartridge?
    ASG Ultrair… P/A has them in the Airsoft Accessories CO2 section. Has silicone lube in them, Read comments section too. First I heard about them also.


  3. BB
    It’s a sad situation we have today. Some modern manufacturers with all our new technology can’t produce an airgun that shoots with better accuracy than what? …. A 70+ year old airgun.
    An outstanding example of simplicity and craftmanship. I think its value just went up considerably.


    • Bob M,

      That is why I always try to make room for these old gals at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns. I dare say that not very many of the modern airguns will likely be usable 100 years from now.


      • Bob, RidgeRunner,
        You guys nailed it. Even though the 37-year-old Webley Tempest I inherited from my Dad is not up to snuff compared to say, their all-steel Premier, it still exhibits nice craftsmanship; and, with good care, will be a family heirloom. I also have an old .22 Geco Carabiner that just turned 99 years old…and it still shoots great. As an engineer, I admire good designs; but I really admire old-world craftsmanship!
        Wishing a blessed day to all,
        dave


  4. B.B.,

    Nice test. Thanks to Kevin for the video work/edit. That was a lot of work and awkward work at that. Not like a swing arm pumper. I appreciate the effort.

    What’s it worth? Well, 95 + 168 = 263 (plus it comes with a 3 part review by an acclaimed gun writer and targets too!) Add 200+. 😉 It is fresh off a rebuild and a verified working gun. So at the minimum,… a cool 500!!!! 🙂

    The Blue Book puts a 95% at 200, so something to think about for those picking up old, non-working specimens. Add 10% for early versions marked 700 on the left side of the receiver. (later versions marked 700 on end cap) Add 35% for box and instruction sheet.

    Fine, fine test of an oldie, but goodie.

    Good Day to one and all,…. Chris


    • Hi Chris!! You are very welcome, I consider it a privilege to be able to help Tom. Sorry I haven’t been around here much, I’ve been spending WAY too much time and $$ on sites like GunBroker and getting some powder burners I’ve always wanted.

      Tom knows my story, but I kick myself daily for not buying a few Pythons, Diamondbacks, etc. in the early/mo\id 70’s when I was working in one of the largest gun shops in CT. Instead, I was caught up in the Model 29 and Automag fever of the day.

      There is one bright spot though, I met my wife while working there. She was a newspaper reporter whose paper had closed and she was working at the pizza place next door. We had lunch & dinner there just about every day. Matter of fact, our 43rd anniversary is next month :))




          • Hey Kevin,
            I spent my first 40 years there; then transferred to Florida for work for 9 years;
            then got sent to Robins AFB for the last 11 years.
            I was born in Bridgeport Hospital, but as soon as she had her first baby (me),
            Mom decided that Bridgeport was “too dangerous” (this was back in 1959, haha!),
            and told my Dad to “sell the house and move to Milford…which he did.
            I have many fond memories of Milford (visited there a few months ago). =D
            take care,
            dave


      • Kevin in CT,

        I felt your pain when I saw your GunBroker comment; they have a Colt, all original, 601 up for a minimum bid of $89,999.00!!!! Back in the day, 1974, the BATF Stamp was more money than a like 601 Colt machine gun (NIB). price tag at Interarms.

        shootski


      • Oh, Lordy. To be able to take my wife out for pizza on ANY anniversary! Also, I’ve been stalking on Gunbroker, too. Almost pulled the trigger yesterday, so to speak.

        Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now in GA



          • Couldn’ stand or afford to stay in Blue NJ with it’s impending fiscal meltdown due to enormously underfunded pensions not to mention the State Income Tax, the property tax, the sales tax, the increased gasoline tax and the firearm codes where a air gun is considered a firearm. CT is not much better and when you retire, I advise you to get out of “Dodge”, too.

            For the newbies, DPRoNJ stands for the Democratik Peoples Republik of New Jersey


  5. B.B.,
    Considering all the constraints under which you’re operating,
    a 0.867″ group at 10 meters is not a good group
    …it’s an excellent group!
    Thanks for all your hard work on this report.
    I found it very informative. =>
    take care & God bless,
    dave


  6. Interesting old rifle – thanks for reviewing this one B.B.!

    Seems that BB guns CAN shoot decent groups. Would it be too bold to suggest that some companies should acquire a couple of these 700s and do some reverse engineering to see what they can learn?

    Talking about “old”, I wounder what percentage of the blogs readership remembers Mighty Mouse from back in the days of black&white TV and only two channels. …OK, so I am dating myself 🙂

    Happy Friday all!

    Hank


    • I, for one, remember the Mighty Mouse cartoon in black & white and how he “saved the day”. Also, remember only two channels and test patterns for most of the day until evening.




          • GF

            Now I got that Captain Kangaroo theme song running through my head !
            Time for extreme measures . Must break out the Jim Beam and put some AC/DC on the stereo. Must save my soul some way .
            Maybe finish off with IN-A-GODDA- DA-VIDA before I go to sleep or pass out..

            tt



          • GF

            Not using it yet. Found some problems for using it with the GMC . Where the battery is one problem . Where the jump start terminals are is another . DC cable would be a bit short .
            Bought a marine battery that was not too expensive compared to the BIGGER marine batteries . Should work OK for short runs.
            tt





                  • GF
                    Mostly at home. Shots are few and far between in general .
                    At the farm on a fairly calm day, I pick them off the top of an electric tower . This is in the fall when they flock up for the winter .
                    That is also where I do the target shooting and plinking . Many shots..
                    Nobody around for a long way.

                    Backup plan for the battery out there…
                    We just got a Harbor Freight store in town. Picked up a Tailgator generator .Big enough to run the compressor with room to spare. Might be a dumb idea . the only 2 stroke I have that uses 50:1 mix . Everything else is 40:1 .

                    tt
                    tt


                    • TT
                      Nice on the generator. But 2 stroke? I thought they were 4 stroke. They been doing that for a while?


                    • The difference between 40:1 and 50:1 is not that great. If everything else you have uses the 40:1, use it. With 2 strokes it does not much matter as long as there is oil in the mix.
                      A few people I know add oil to the fuel in their oil injection snowmobiles. That way if the oil injection quits or runs out of oil, there is still oil in the system. Too much oil just smokes a bit. Too little causes problems! Some have even disabled the oil injection system as they have issues.

                      Silver Eagle


                  • GF
                    Ran out of room.
                    This is a little one . easily portable . The bigger ones are 4 stroke, but a bit large to manage for a job like this . It’s Chinese like all the other Harbor freight stuff.
                    Supposed to run about 5 hours on a gallon of juice at half load . That’s a lot of fills.
                    Won’t run a microwave. Maybe a small coffee maker .
                    Have a bigger one for my house in case of power problems . It has saved me a few times over the years . Always seem to loose power when it has been raining a lot and the sump pump really needs to keep working.
                    tt


                    • TT
                      Ok sounds like it’s a nice little generator.

                      And I really need to get me a good generator. Our whole house is electric. We got the fireplace if it goes out in the winter. But nothing for if powers out in the summertime. I imagine it has to be a pretty big generator to run a air conditioner. Maybe one won’t run a A/C unit. Never checked it out. But I guess I should.


                  • GF

                    You have to add up how much power you need , and make sure the generator can handle it with room to spare.
                    I patch mine in through a box out in the garage on a 220 line . I turn off all the 220 breakers in the house and have 120 on all the other wiring that way .
                    Always remember to turn off the main breaker so you don’t try to backfeed the power company .The generator would be history.

                    I can use a kerosene heater for heat if needed. For cooking, I have coleman camping stoves .

                    tt


                    • TT
                      Thanks for the info. I haven’t messed with the home generator stuff. I need to look more into it for sure.

                      And yep the good ole kerosene heater and Coleman stoves. I have popped out the ole BBQ grill before when the power went out too.



                  • GF1,

                    I have a 2000 W Honda. Very quiet. Will do the fridge, 5500 BTU window AC unit, TV, computer, window fan and a light or two. That puts right at 1600 W which is 80% and recommended for the surge of a fridge. Propane tank burner for cooking. Propane wall unit for back up heat (non-electric). 2 cases of bottled water plus several gallons and 20 gallons of stored jug water for bathroom flushing. I big cooler for icing stuff.

                    It is minimum, but it works. Be prepared to pay up for a Honda. Also, the power “quality” is key for electronics. Consider that. I am not sure of the specifics, but the wave?/pulse?/variability? of a basic generator is too crude for sensitive electronics.

                    Will run 9 hrs. at idle and like 4 hrs. at 50% on 1 gallon. The only downside is a 1 gallon tank. 4 cycle.


                    • Chris

                      It’s the inverters you need to watch out for. They put out a square wave, or a modified sine wave, which is just a little different from a square wave but a long way from a sine wave.

                      tt


                    • Chris
                      If I go that route of getting a generator I will spend the money.

                      Although have made it all these years without. At least if the electric goes out in the winter you can set your food outside depending on the situation.

                      And don’t know about you if you watch them. But the Woolly worm catipilars are all black around here this year.

                      They say depending on the color from brown to black and where it colors their body will tell what the winter will be like.

                      I seen them brown for about 1/3rd of their body and black on 2/3rds of their body. And sure enough the first part of winter wasn’t bad but the second part was. And seen them with many different color combinations through the years and they hold true for some crazy reason.

                      You ever watch them?


                    • We finally bit the bullet and bought a whole house generator. After years of using fireplace and kerosene heat,, and then a smaller generator that we had to drag out and then run a homemade cable to the dryer outlet. We finally got tired of the whole mess and got one big enough to power the house,, including AC and a hot tub. It is all automatic. Power goes out,, 30 seconds later it’s back on. It even starts and runs for 15 minutes every month,, just in case. Quieter than the 5500watt one we used to have. They aren’t cheap, tho,, but we lose power at least 3 or 4 times every winter,, and twice so far this summer,, so to me,, it was worth it.

                      And BB,, I’m sorry I missed greeting you on your birthday,, so happy Bday from Pa.
                      Edlee


  7. BB
    A nice short video.

    And it’s nice that it worked out needing only two pumps per shot.

    And so those snugger fitting Avanti’s did the trick. Not bad at 10 meters.

    And if you sold this one do you think you would find another that shoots as well for what you have in it? Bet this is one that would sell for higher than what the blue book says. Of course to the right person looking for one. That’s even if if you wanted to sell it.


    • GF1,

      I have learned not to get rid of accurate airguns. While researching the repairs on this gun I learned how very rare it is. There seem to be more semiautomatic model 600s available than these 700s. And I have discovered perhaps one of the few people on the planet who can repair one.

      All that together makes this a gun for my estate sale. Save your pennies, RidgeRunner! 😉

      B.B.


    • GF1,

      I tested another gun this weekend by firing it fast and slow. The gun was a Umarex Beretta 92 A1 and I fired it with a 2 sec delay and a 20 sec delay. It is another gun that fires full auto, so I did that, too. I fired a little over five 18 round strings at 2 secs and over five strings at 20 secs, using Daisy Premium Grade BBs, and made a chart and graph of the totals.

      Then I set up a 5 yard target for 5 different BBs and shot a Mag full for each one. Then I did the same at 12.6 yards and made a chart with those velocities and also the 18 shot group sizes at each distance for each BB. (I only loaded 17 BBs in the mag when I did the 12.6 yard groups. It was a mistake on my part, but I wasn’t willing to shoot them over, so it is what it is) The gun shoots a pretty wide group at the longer distance, so I chose to just list how many BBs ( out of 17 )could be covered by a 4 3/4″ CD and how many could be covered by a 3″ disc.

      I fired a full mag of each BB (18 shots) on full auto at the 12.6 yard distance and recorded the velocity that each string started at. That should give an estimate of what velocity the previous string ended at. It took about 50 seconds to reload the magazine, so there was probably a little warm up between strings, but not much. The Blasters put the most BBs in the CD sized circle and I seemed to have plenty of gas left so I fired another mag of them and they repeated that grouping. I then fired a single shot to see what velocity that string ended on. It was high enough that I was able to fire a mag of the Crosman( just trying to use them up, ’cause they’re pretty crappy BBs.) and the gun cycled through the entire mag, operating the blowback flawlessly. The group was horrible, though.

      The real surprise came when I changed out the CO2 cartridge. There was not a single puff or hiss of gas left in the container. The gun fired all the way down to a completely empty condition!! I duplicated this in other parts of this testing, so it wasn’t a fluke.

      I’ll post the 2 sec and 20 sec stuff first. I was shooting at a trap 12.66 yards away. At that distance a 90+ shot group is about 6″ wide and about as tall as the main body of a 2 liter pop bottle, regardless of what delay I used.





      • Half,

        Wow!!!,.. you are a testing machine and fine job with the visuals,.. as always.

        Blaster (plastic)? I do recall these being discussed in the past, but do not see them on the PA site. It is amazing that they did the best on accuracy.

        And, you are proving once again that a delay will not gain much. A good argument for doing fast semi or full auto.

        Chris


        • Chris,

          I bought them a little while back from a store in the UK.( A dive shop, if I remember right. ) BB had some included with a gun that he reviewed and I was intrigued so I sought them out. I will be trying them in other guns, as well.

          Half


          • Half,

            That does ring a bell now. Thank you for going the extra step. The higher fps seems to be making up for the lighter weight in accuracy. Like I said the other day,… shoot anything fast enough and it will go straight,…. well,… at least for awhile anyways. 😉

            Chris



          • Half,

            You are a tester. A good one at that. Not to mention,.., you can represent data quite well.

            Ok now,… (you knew there would be a catch to all of the “flattery”,… yes?) 😉

            So,.. onto my point,… You have seen me discuss and try various sorting techniques. You have see GF1 and I discuss such. You have seen the banter back and forth. You have seen results,.. or lack there of.

            Assuming the gun can perform the same each time (the ultimate),.. the next “ultimate” is to have the exact same pellet for every shot. This however,…. is not as easy as one might think.

            Now, onto my,.. pointed “point”,…. What are your thoughts on the whole matter of pellet sorting? Does it interest you at all? Is it all a bunch of “hooey”? What are (your) thoughts on the topic? Basic. Overall.

            Chris


            • Chris U,

              I guess if I were forced to give an opinion, I would be in more of the “hooey” camp.

              A) I’m not sure that the economical scales that one would probably use are accurate enough.

              B) I have Pelletgages in .177 and .22 ( so I HAVE obviously been on my own mission in this area ) and I have noticed that a pellet that won’t pass through a hole on one day will go through on another day. I assume that this is attributable to thermal expansion.

              C) Along those same lines, the materials that make up the “launch platform” of an air gun are subject to thermal expansion, so today’s ideal pellet head, skirt, and length dimension and overall weight, even if we could keep them constant, which we can’t, will likely be crap on another day when the gun is at a different temperature.

              D) The “overall” weight of the pellet is all that can really be measured. There is no method, that I know of, to measure weight distribution throughout the pellet. In the extreme, for instance, a bubble could be present far enough out near the periphery of the pellet that it causes an imbalance as the pellet spins, while at the same time, the pellet’s overall weight is within whatever arbitrary limit you set for it. The distribution could make the pellet head-heavy or tail-heavy, as well.

              E) Because of variations in material density, you could be rejecting pellets as too light, that are in every other, and I would argue, more important, aspect, perfect for shooting from your gun.

              And finally, F) I don’t think anyone has definitively proven what causes accuracy. Much has been written by smarter guys that me and they didn’t come up with “the” answer.

              Do I think that you MAY improve your groups in small measures, under SOME conditions? That answer would be yes, but beyond sorting for deformed pellets, I don’t think the results are worth the effort, for me.

              I wouldn’t share this opinion with you, normally, because I know that you put a lot of energy into this pursuit and I would be afraid you might think I was judging you or thought you were wasting your time. I’m not and I don’t, but I wanted to give you an honest answer, since you asked.

              I hope that you will, one day, be the guy that tells me exactly how to sort my pellets for some big improvements.

              Half


              • Half,

                I was expecting/asked for, more of a simple answer,… but hey,.. I should have known better. If you do it,.. it is all the way,.. or nothing. 🙂

                Thank you for your candid (and very complete) response and I can assure you that it is most welcomed and that never any offense was taken. And yes,.. I (did) ask because I respect the testing that you are doing. You do it well.

                You bring up a very good point that some aspects may be important than others. Question is,… what are those, exactly?

                Thank you very much. Being a wee tad hard headed,… I will most likely “bang my head against the wall” a bit more,….. but I am tending to sway towards the “hooey” theory myself. Then again,…. 😉

                Chris


                • Chris U,

                  It’s the ” headbangers ” that usually make the breakthroughs. I wasn’t kidding about you tellin’ me how to sort my pellets for maximum effect, someday. Hang in there for us lazy old farts.

                  Half


                  • Half,

                    Well, you are more skilled than I. Lazy?,… You?,…. I think not.

                    My “ultimate” thought? I do know that there is machines where you can place an object in the middle and “lasers???” measure all aspects and spit out a good/no good decision.

                    There is the weighing aspect. There is also the cupped pellet skirt aspect.

                    As I see it:
                    Pellet placed skirt down,… from that,…
                    1) Length is measured
                    2) ALL profile dimensions are measured
                    3) By spinning and reading,…. out of round, or concentricity could be determined at (all) points of the profile

                    4) Flip the pellet on it’s side and measure skirt attributes

                    5) Weight may have to be a separate process

                    Does such a “magic” machine exist already? Most likely. Would there be a market for Uber sorted pellets? Yes,… but I think maybe limited. 5$ a pellet anyone? 🙂

                    Given the possible pre-set parameter limits,… I could see 350 pellets sorted into 350 different categories.

                    At any rate,… Thanks again,…. Chris


                    • Chris
                      Here ya go again.

                      “I guess if I were forced to give an opinion, I would be in more of the “hooey” camp.

                      A) I’m not sure that the economical scales that one would probably use are accurate enough.

                      B) I have Pelletgages in .177 and .22 ( so I HAVE obviously been on my own mission in this area ) and I have noticed that a pellet that won’t pass through a hole on one day will go through on another day. I assume that this is attributable to thermal expansion.

                      C) Along those same lines, the materials that make up the “launch platform” of an air gun are subject to thermal expansion, so today’s ideal pellet head, skirt, and length dimension and overall weight, even if we could keep them constant, which we can’t, will likely be crap on another day when the gun is at a different temperature.

                      D) The “overall” weight of the pellet is all that can really be measured. There is no method, that I know of, to measure weight distribution throughout the pellet. In the extreme, for instance, a bubble could be present far enough out near the periphery of the pellet that it causes an imbalance as the pellet spins, while at the same time, the pellet’s overall weight is within whatever arbitrary limit you set for it. The distribution could make the pellet head-heavy or tail-heavy, as well.

                      E) Because of variations in material density, you could be rejecting pellets as too light, that are in every other, and I would argue, more important, aspect, perfect for shooting from your gun.

                      And finally, F) I don’t think anyone has definitively proven what causes accuracy. Much has been written by smarter guys that me and they didn’t come up with “the” answer.

                      Do I think that you MAY improve your groups in small measures, under SOME conditions? That answer would be yes, but beyond sorting for deformed pellets, I don’t think the results are worth the effort, for me.

                      I wouldn’t share this opinion with you, normally, because I know that you put a lot of energy into this pursuit and I would be afraid you might think I was judging you or thought you were wasting your time. I’m not and I don’t, but I wanted to give you an honest answer, since you asked.

                      I hope that you will, one day, be the guy that tells me exactly how to sort my pellets for some big improvements.”



                    • GF1,

                      It was a good comment. Very good. You?,.. not elaborate? Please share,… if so inclined. That (is) what I did ask, after all.


                    • GF1,

                      Ok. I (respect) your opinion and experience,.. as well as Halfstep’s. Of the two,.. you are probably the more experienced on the topic of sorting. That is what I asked for, from you, and Halfstep gave a more expansive opinion where as you were a bit more elusive,… other than to agree with Halfstep.

                      I am not trying to pit anyone against the other. You have done it. You have the experience. You have an opinion. If yours is Halfstep’s,.. then done.

                      How many other air gun enthusiast have found themselves in this sorting quandary?

                      If something made a difference,.. say so. If nothing made a difference,.. say so. If some things made a difference,… and others things not,… say so. If you are not sure and found the whole venture not worth it,… say that.

                      Right, wrong or indifferent,… I was just asking for (your) opinion and experience. Nothing more.

                      Chris


      • Halfstep
        Man that’s alot of work.

        What I thought was interesting was that some of the bb’s sped up at the 12.5 yards compared to the 5 yard velocity’s. And it was also interesting that the blow back funtioned all the way down on the cartridge fill.

        And it seems the plastic blaster bb’s are pretty accurate. And a question. Will the blaster bb’s penetrate a aluminum can at the 12.5 yards? And I might not be commenting in the right spot. But yep I like the way that pistol is performing.


        • GF1,

          I actually did the 12+ yard groups first, so the gun was probably warmer, overall, than it was in the other parts of the testing. I gave it a lot of time to warm up after each set of tests, since I had to change my setup, pour a fresh drink, notate group sizes, make a fresh drink, etc, but there could have been a little bit of residual “cold” in the gun for each of the latter tests. Messing around with the gun after all of this testing, I did have a cartridge that definitely shortchanged me on gas. I only got 4 mags out of it, so there may be enough variance between cartridges to account for the difference that showed up in my tests.

          BB reviewed this gun before I started reading his blog and I just went back and read it. His results were very similar to mine in the areas that we tested similarly. He noted how efficiently they were using the gas, also. He got higher velocities than I did for some reason, though.

          Half


          • Half,

            Lest we not forget the optional? beverage,…. 😉 Being viced, sandbagged and such,… no chance of things going awry,… ehh? Responsible enough. Just stay aft of the trigger. 🙂

            Chris


          • Halfstep
            Yep on the results.

            But I still would like to know if the plastic blaster bb’s will penetrate a aluminum can at the 12.5 yards.

            I almost ordered some back when you posted the UK link but didn’t. I was waiting for your results since you said you would be testing them out.


            • GF1,

              I have shot them informally in a few guns and have gotten close to 150 fps more than with a steel BB, every time. They shot about 3 inches higher out of this gun. By the way, I didn’t mention it before, but this gun is shooting right on for the 6 o’clock hold, height-wise, but 3 inches left at 12.5 yards. I didn’t really check at 5 yards. I wish the sights would adjust. I hate having to remember to hold off.

              Half

              Half


              • Halfstep
                Yep I don’t like to remember hold offs either. Definitely note time when that happens.

                And now that would be interesting to know. The WildFire or 1077 with the blaster bb’s.


            • GF1,

              Oh,.. before I forget,…. I was bouncing between 24 mag. and 34 mag. today (separate groups) and no difference in hold over required. So yes,… the FFP is working out quite well. I had some descent light at target today and was able to do 34 quite nice.



          • Halfstep
            Thanks. And nice. That’s what I was hoping far.

            That just might be the ticket to get more accuracy at a bit longer distances. The higher velocity of the plastic blaster bb’s.

            And it might even add shot count to a Co2 cartridge. I know if I use a lighter pellet in my Co2 guns I get more shot count than with heavier pellets.



              • Halfstep
                I thought for sure I commented to this reply from you.

                But that would be something I want to see.

                Maybe the higher velocity will be the trick with the steel bb’s.

                But now the guns you are talking about are rifled. Either way would like to see the info.


    • GF1,

      They have got this gun working at a very high level of efficiency, and that’s with a very nice recoil as well. You can pretty much fire it as fast as you want and the velocity will be plenty stable and the shot count will still be high, for this type gun. I won’t lie, I would like to have it be a bit more accurate, but you can’t have everything, I guess. This will have to be the action gun that I limit to the 7 yard distance.

      What’s your impression?

      Half


  8. B.B.,

    I reread the previous reports and I cannot find mention whether this is actually a smoothbore or not. If it is a smoothbore then this is probably the one for testing how accurate a BB can be at a distance. I do note that this was with properly fitting BBs and a faster velocity than most other BB guns.

    Siraniko


  9. Silver Eagle

    Ran out of room again.
    I didn’t think there would be much difference if it was mixed a little thick . I know some motors are touchy about fuel though. Would need to try it .
    Have run a snow blower on 50:1 snowmobile gas . Smoked a little and did not have quite full power, but it worked.

    tt


    • TT,

      See bottom. Also, the maintenance guy we had at work was a real motor head and said that gasoline had the most bang for the buck/horse power, followed by natural gas,… followed by propane. So, another consideration.

      Chris



        • TT,

          Ok. I was told by a lawn care/lawn equip. sales company that said that they only run high test in all small engines (-20 HP) (2 and 4 cycle) and that high test has many of the things that things like Sta-Bil has in it. I do Sta-Bil and change out gas in all motors yearly. What I have left in the Fall, get’s dumped in the Rav 4, (not 2 cycle mixed).

          At any rate,.. we are sharing info. that will hopefully help someone. Or confuse???? 😉

          Chris


        • TT, Chris, & GF1,

          Regarding the gasoline subject: First of all, ALL fuel can contain up to 10% ethanol and the service stations are not required to reveal it. Second, don’t think that premium (high octane) fuel does not contain ethanol too, because it does. TT, you are correct about gas turning bad. This can happen in as little as 30 days. The best thing we can do to protect our small engines is to use Sta-Bil in everything. I always put 1 oz into a 5 gallon container when filling it. Then you won’t have to worry about putting it in the engine’s fuel tank. The ethanol in fuel attracts moisture and the Sta-Bil will extend the life of the gas to 6 months or more.

          There is a lot of confusion about using premium fuel. I am sure GF1 knows this, but others may not. Premium fuel should only be used in an engine if the manufacturer recommends it. Premium does not mean the fuel is better than regular fuel. Premium’s fuel is intended to be used in high performance engines with higher compression ratios. Premium fuel actually burns slower than regular fuel to prevent detonation (spark knock) in these engines. If you use premium in an engine that does not require it, you are wasting you money….and contrary to popular belief, it does not yield better fuel mileage.

          A little more and I will get off my soap box. Guys, don’t buy cheap fuel. Only buy “Top Tier” fuel from stations that are designated as selling Top Tier. Okay, now all fuel is basically the same as it comes from the refinery. Additive packages which contain detergents and other good stuff are placed in the delivery truck’s tanker before the fuel is pumped into the service station’s storage tanks. I’m sure you’ve heard of summer blended fuel and winter blended fuel. The winter blend additive package has chemicals in it to help prevent gas line freeze, and other things to make it burn better in cold temperatures. It also cost more too so you will see slightly higher prices in winter usually. You folks down south don’t have to be concerned with that though.

          It’s all about the additive packages guys. Do your own research on the subject, but this if factual.
          The best fuel you could use in your small engines would be fuel without any ethanol. Ask you local service station if their fuel has ethanol in it and what percentage. They probably won’t have an answer to that question. Some pumps will have the percentage of ethanol posted but others will not. The government would like to increase the allowed percentage to 15%, and that would be much worse and yield even lower fuel mileage. Okay, I’m done.


          • Geo,

            Thank you. I have known about what you stated at one time or another. Time goes on and things get muddy. Or we forget. 🙁 I get Consumer Reports magazine and they touch on this topic from time to time.

            You are correct on the Ethanol providing less power. You would think that Ethanol blended gas would be cheaper, but I do not think that is always the case. By using this, you are actually using/buying more gas. While not sure, a gallon of Ethanol takes (more fossil fuel to produce) than a gallon of petroleum based gasoline, (all) things factored in. So munch on that fact environmentalists. I do believe the Ethanol is better for emissions though.

            On my way to work in the early AM, I catch a bit of a fairly extensive, but brief farm report. Yes, the corn producers would love to see that 15% blend. Good for them, but how much so for the rest of us, overall? Farming, livestock or crop, is insanely analytical and scientific these days.

            Chris



  10. TT,

    I just know the Honda’s put out “clean” power,… quality enough for electronics. The one you have may do so as well. I have seen even the cheaper small one’s run forever, like 10 days, 24/7, so need to really pay up,… sometimes.

    Chris


  11. GF1,

    I have seen them. I saw an all black one the other day at work when I came in. We will see. I never give any of that much consideration.

    By the way,… my house is all electric too and probably smaller than yours,…. but what is the highest Winter bill you get? I have had 300/mo. some years in bad Winters.


    • Chris
      My electric bill runs about $160- $180. Have seen $250 when it’s in the teens for a week or so.

      And we watched the Woolly worms since I was a kid. They hold pretty true. Nature has a way of being like that. What about the Farmers Almanac. My dad kept a eye on it. He even wrote down the weather every day on the calendar. And I’m talking indepth. Barometric pressure, humidity, rain, wind speed and direction and temperature. Even how dry the ground was or how moist. And I remember alot of praying for the timing of things. So what made the difference. I think it all made a difference and it all adds up if you pay enough attention.


  12. GF1,

    Wooly worms and generators???? I could have sworn this was an air gun site? Mmmmm? 😉 Whatever is going on, it is like family among the poster’s. 🙂

    Yes,… there is much to all of that. It is fun and not always accurate,… but yet there is probably something to be RE-learned amongst all of the live time radar and such. The Farmer’s Almanac is a blast to read. If you think about it,… it is not un-like us trying to figure out air guns and air gun ballistics’,…. and predict. Record data, compile data, analyze data and attempt to predict. 😉


  13. Edlee,

    Yes,… a whole house gen. is the way to go. The older one gets,… the less a power outage becomes a memorable “adventure” and much more of a hassle. Very nice,…. enjoy! 🙂

    Chris


  14. Old things and alcohol
    Pertinent blog entries for me today. I’m getting older and plan to have a little Jose Cuervo with his Margarita Mix today. ( The in thing to drink living next to Tecate ) Today is my birthday and I’m now as old as BB but hopefully nobody can tell … I cover my bald spot with long hair. 😉

    I tried something an old friend does. He avoids going to the doctor hoping his ailment will disappear and go away so I thought I would stay in bed all day and avoid getting older by skipping my birthday. But being old I forgot and left the bed to answer the phone. Should have known better, it was one of my daughters wishing me a “Happy Birthday!”
    She was totally unaware of the damage she may have caused making me a year older. “Que Sera, Sera !”

    GF1
    Do you keep a ledger? … How can you possibly remember all the unfinished blogs and projects people are into ?? Perhaps I should be asking you what I forgot in the future 🙂
    Yes I remember the 50 yard Nova Freedom test and the Dust Devils in the extended HellBoy, or … was that the DPMS SBR ?

    As for old TV shows, I remember them all … especially when someone, shall we say, reminds me.
    My dad was a TV repairman at Olympic Radio and TV in Queens NY and we had some of the first. I liked Andy’s Gang, all the westerns and cartons. Especially the politically incorrect ones ! Remember when Betty Boop was a dog?
    Bob M


    • Hey Bob M,

      Happy Birthday! and many more healthy decades!

      Check out my post a ways up to Kevin in CT about the Colt 601…

      Now that would be THE B’day gift!

      shootski



      • BB
        Thanks, You are a sharp one for sure.

        You know I sometimes feel a little bad about going off topic, let alone off the subject of airguns entirely and you can tell others do as well. But I got to thinking, most people seem to enjoy it to a certain extent.

        Unlike most blogs that strictly deal with specific airguns or equipment I think this one deals with “Airgunners” as well as new and historical airguns and equipment. Where else can you learn about airguns in general and specific items from experienced knowledgeable people sharing information and receive some wisdom of age to boot.

        But then I think you figured it out already It’s in the header. A place of learning and discussion.

        Thanks for hanging in there with us BB

        Bob M




      • Geo,

        Considering the alternative,… I will take all of the future birthdays that I can get! 🙂 As a funny side,.. I often have to think about how old I am when someone ask. It is something that I never give thought to. I keep it simple and just go with,…. ” Uhhh?,… Mmmm?,…. Late 50’s,…. -ish.” 😉 Early, mid and late defines it within a 5 year frame and that is close enough for me.

        Chris


        • Chris,
          From your discription we are the same age…ish. I am mature enough to think about retirement but not ready to set a date for it. Besides, I enjoy what I do for a living.
          On entertainment age, I remember going to the drive in with friends to see Billy Jack.
          Gerald


          • Gerald
            How old are you?

            I can’t retire yet. I’ll be 57 in October.

            But I’m definitely ready for retirement. Definitely know how I’ll spend my days if I could. And working ain’t one of them.


            • Cheis,
              I turned 58 in July. That puts retirement less than a decade away. It is about when you can afford to not work any more. For most people it is in their mid sixties. That said, work has to reasonably enjoyable or it will annoy you to death to early.
              Gerald




                  • Gerald
                    It should of been happening this year. Had it all in place. Then got sick. That was at 47. That changed everything.

                    Got things in place now. Just hope it all continues to work. 62 should be it for me. But as it goes. That can get screwed up at anytime.

                    I hope I can do it before I can’t move no more.

                    Definitely know I enjoy my time off. Got too much things I want to do. But no time.



    • Bob M
      First Happy Birthday.

      And nope no ledger. I guess my mind remembers things I’m interested in. Usually it’s something that is being talked about triggers my memory is the best I can say.


      • I have a neat little program on my computer called iDailyDiary. I have kept a daily journal with it since 2007. It really comes in handy because it has a search feature. I can track things like doctor’s appointments, lawn mowings, furnace maintenance, computer work notes, and many other things. I always record the day’s temperature and notes on what the day is like. It’s interesting to go back one year and read what you were doing on that day a year ago. I used the free version for several years and liked it so much that I bought the paid version because of all the added features and spell check. It also has the capability of creating categories to make searches easier. It’s one of my favorite programs. Oh, and it’s great for making notes on shooting sessions and a picture of groups can be added to the notes too.

        I travel with a friend and help him install captioning phones for the hearing impaired. I always make notes when I get home in my journal as to how the installs went and any issues we ran into. He is 82, and not very computer literate, so I help him if he runs into trouble connecting to the wifi or finding the password for the network. Most of the clients are older and don’t have a clue because their kids or grand kids set it up for them.


        • Geo,

          Very nice. It is amazing what technology is doing these days to assist the older folks. Ok,…wait,… I think I am one? :0 Ok, maybe not yet,… but getting there all to quick! 😉

          My folks are 80 and they do better than I do. Dad was showing me something on the I-Pad the other day and the next thing I knew,… it was talking to me!!!! I darn near threw it across the room! 🙂

          You do well my friend,…. Chris


        • Geo
          Guess I’m old fashioned in this way.

          I still use my calendar to write down dates.

          And I really don’t write down much data on shooting anymore. I use to. Same with my racing days. It’s just there anymore if you know what I mean. I know what works. And I know what don’t. What more can I say.


  15. Hey Chris USA,

    To keep this Airgun related think dual fuel… We used to have a deep cycle battery bank and a DC motor generator as our backup. We switched to a whole house generator, once prices started to get reasonable, that runs on natural gas and can be switched to the propane tank (in a blast hut out back) as back up. We are lucky to have the natural gas otherwise we probably would have gone with diesel and #2 fuel oil as a backup source. Fortunately electric power conditioners are getting better all the time and we got rid of the DC motor/generator set a few years back. You gets what you pay for with the backup systems as long as you do your homework.

    shootski


    • Shootski,

      Yup, another option. Solar panel system options too. That motor head maintenance guy installed a bigger whole house system as a side job and was given the older, smaller propane unit. You can convert propane to natural gas with some carburetor conversion parts, which he did. He did that also with a small std. gas gen. for his motor home and converted it to propane.

      I live in the country and propane is the only option at this point for a whole house gen. set up. For me, the 2000 Watt gas, 4 cycle Honda does just fine, for now.

      To keep on (get back to) the air gun theme,… you don’t want your PCP pump to be without power,.. now do you? 😉

      Chris


  16. Geo791, et al,

    Go online and check out pure-gas-org which lists where you can buy ethanol-free gas anywhere within the U.S. and Canada. Many marinas carry it and then there is also aviation fuel which is of a higher octane still but has a small amount of lead in it which would clog a catalytic converter. OMG, that would mean that light aircraft with internal combustion engines and almost everything else on the planet are known to cause cancer in the state of California!

    Chris USA, et al,

    Propane has more BTU’s than natural gas. Raw natural gas straight from a well also has more BTU’s than what is delivered to the customer via underground transmission lines, after it has been stripped. What you get is a “watered down version” which is less efficient since it doesn’t burn as hot.

    For a back up emergency generator I would highly recommend a tri-fuel which can run on gasoline, propane or natural gas. I have had one since pre Y2K which is set up for natural gas. It is only a 6 KW (running on gasoline) but puts the home on life support during emergencies. It runs two refrigerators one freezer, a gas furnace, water pump (1500 gallon cistern from spring), a few lights and last but not least a beer meister! It is both electric and pull start and has a Honda 11 HP engine, to date it has logged a little over 408 hours. The non pressurized (no oil filter) Honda engine requires an oil change every 100 hours, not too bad, I would avoid any generator/engine combination which requires an oil change at 25 hour intervals. Some do and would be a PIA, and expensive,
    especially if it is powered by gasoline. The better units have hour meters or you can add one (recommended) and if it is set up to run on propane or natural gas remove the float and needle valve from the carburetor to protect them from unnecessary vibration since they will no longer be dampened by fuel in the bowl.

    Shootski,

    I bought my first handgun (new NIB) in 1965 upon graduation from high school. It was a Colt Government model chambered in .38 Super, at the time it cost considerably less than many of the current look alike BB guns of today.

    Back in the early eighties, I subscribed to Gun List and Shotgun News. There were two notable listings in the latter, the first was a new Browning M2 HB (manufactured by Savage) for $3,500 and the other was for a fully operational M48 tank for $ 55,000! Ah, the good old days!

    Remember Winky Dink on Saturday mornings?

    Bugbuster


    • Bugbuster,

      Thank you for the correction on the BTU comparison of propane and natural gas. Also, thank you for all of the other fine information. I went to the pure gas site. There is some, but none around me or at least not in my usual travel path. I do run a bottle of that fuel system cleaner through the car a couple of times every year. Probably nothing more than “snake oil”,… but I do it anyways. 🙂

      Chris


      • Chris USA,

        You are welcome.

        I always mix additives to my stored fuel also, including diesel, especially stabilizers such as STA-BIL or Star*Tron for gas, but diesel requires a different type. On average, I log approximately 75 hours a year just mowing my yard with my zero turn Walker T25i mower which uses around a gallon of fuel an hour. Under ideal conditions, which doesn’t happen often, especially this year, it takes slightly less than five hours to complete.

        How far do you live from Youngstown Ohio?

        Bugbuster


      • Chris,

        If you use Top Tier gas it has enough detergent additives to keep the engine pretty clean of carbon deposits. Seafoam is good stuff too and it doesn’t hurt anything to use a can now and then to keep the fuel injectors clean.


    • Hey Bugbuster,

      I think I remember that tank for sale.
      In 1965 I bought a 1936 Reo Flying Cloud from a farmer with no engine! I didn’t buy any guns because I was broke after buying the 1962 V8 401 thinwall cast Buick motor, two 4 barrels and a manifold for them. That project took two years but it kicked some but and my wallet.

      shootski


      • Shootski
        The old nail head Buicks.

        I had some early 60’s Skylarks with that engine.

        You know what the old switch pitch Buick trans were? What was cool is Buick, Olds, and Pontiac used the same tranny bolt pattern. That was a heck of a tranny behind a long stroke Olds engine. Especially later on when the aftermarket higher stall converters came about. Don’t know if you know but that lower stall worked great for putting power down after the car got out of the hole. Especially when bottling the car. Aka nitrous. 🙂


        • GF1,

          The transmission that came with it was a Buick one that they only had for two or three years. I think it was called a Hydramatic two path turbine. I didn’t use it. I mated it with a BorgWarner 4 Speed manual with short shaft to the posi 4:11 rear. Great car wish I had had a little more money to dump in it.
          I sold it and bought a Italian Alpha Romeo Giulia Sprint and headed of to college.

          shootski


          • Shootski
            That was the 2 speed version kind of like the Chevy and Buick, Olds, Pontiac powerglide tranny.

            Later in the late 60’s Buick had the switch pitch in the 3 speed auto. Heck of a combination with a big block. I used them in a reverse manner. Use sthe stall out of the hole and look cool them up after the car rolled out. That way it was kind of like a direct drive with a stick shift. And all you had to do is flip a switch.


          • I wish my phone would stop charging things up.

            “I used them in a reverse manner. Use sthe stall out of the hole and look cool them up after the car rolled out.”

            This is what it should say.
            I used them in a reverse manner. Used the stall out of the hole and locked it up after the car rolled out.


      • Shootski,

        I used to enjoy working on vehicles, now I detest doing so. I am dragging 71 and pushing 72 real hard. My first vehicle was a 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 2 door hardtop which my father had purchased new. The original engine was either a 332 or 352 CID, I don’t remember which with any certainty. To the best of my memory, I believe that it started using oil and my father, a machinist by trade, rebuilt the engine. Possibly, it was bored .010 oversize and there was a process done at NAPA which would knurl the piston skirt to take up the slop if you will. Apparently, the skirts were too brittle and weakened by the knurling process and would break off, then you would get piston slap. At this time we pulled that engine and installed a 410 CID E 475 engine which came out of an Edsel. Had it up to 115 mph on I-70 and still had more throttle available, scary with glass belted tires. Those days are long gone.

        Everyone,

        Hold off on the Bug A Salt, there is a new model out now which is slightly more powerful than the 2.0 version, claimed to have better sights, plus the safety can be overridden for rapid fire.

        Bugbuster


  17. .22 pellets in a .25 can????

    Just some FYI for anyone interested,… I was trying the .25 HN Barracuda’s, 31.02 grain in the Red Wolf the other day (again) and in the can was 50 or so .22 pellets, which as best I can discern, are .22 HN Barracuda Match pellets weighing 21.14 grain, which I also happen to have a can of.

    The .25 can was mostly full and a 200 count can, so this represents about 25%. I have always kept my .22 and .25 pellets in separate locations and only have 1 caliber gun outside at a time. Also, if I had noticed this before, they would have been sorted right away. They are several years old and thus far, the HN’s have not outperformed the JSB’s in either caliber.

    Even after spreading them out to sort, the .22’s blended in rather well and I found myself missing a few over several sorts. They both have a similar body style. Just passing this along.


  18. A wee bit of levity for the day,…

    I just went down the 150’ish step trip to the mail box. Round trip. I open the mail box and there atop my mail sat a GIANT spider. We are talking a Turkey platter sized critter here now!!!! Ok,.. maybe not quite,… but it was BIG!

    Further inspection revealed a nice little spider nest way at the back of the box. Mmmmm? Meanwhile,.. spider “Mom” appeared to stand firmly atop my mail,.. unmoving,…defending her future man eating brood. I was pretty sure that I heard a growl and the glowing red eye’s indicated they she meant business.

    Battle for ultimate mail box domain was about to ensue!

    Long story short,.. I broke off a big branch from a downed tree limb and proceeded to “dual” it out with the afore mentioned “beast”. I won,.. after a lengthy battle. 🙂 I do however have to tape back up what is left of my mail. And,… oh yea,… get a new mail box too. 🙁

    Anyone that has been around here awhile knows that spiders are not my most favorite of Nature’s critters and I will readily do battle. That why I keep a shovel at the ready and,… a loaded .25 M-rod,…. for the really BIG ones.

    Hope everyone is having a fine day!,…. Chris 🙂

    ** True story,.. I swear! Well,.. most of it anyways. There was a spider, there was mail, it was atop my mail… spider is now in spider “heaven”. The rest can be attributed to a bit of “literary license”.


    • Funny story. Here’s another, my wife has a friend who was driving her car somewhere. She saw a spider in the car and immediately pulled over to the side of the road and exited the car. She refused to drive the car home and her husband had to come and get the car. I guess he found the spider at some point and removed it. But she wasn’t about to get back in the car with a spider in it. I believe they call that “arachnophobia”, or fear of spiders. As I recall, there was a movie by that name too starring John Goodman.



        • B.B.,

          We just got us one of them there fancy Rural Kings the other day and they had a whole huge set up them Bug-O-Salt thingies. Morton salt canisters right there beside! Camo, black, you name it. Even pink camo ones,.. for the female persuasion!

          Chris


        • B.B.,

          In retrospect, I would have got one. I paused and then decided to wait. First, I wanted to do some research on any mods. on converting it to a 4000 psi PCP, launching some .25 cal’s at around 800-900 fps. If do-able,… the price seemed pretty good. 😉

          FOR SURE!!!!,… I did get a BIG smile and the first thing I thought about was you and this blog!

          I remember (very) well when I woke up all blurry eyed one morning and saw a plastic “toy” featured for the day’s blog! I was like,…. ????? 😉

          Chris


        • B.B.,

          No, I do not have one of those. I told my wife about them shooting salt to kill flies. She didn’t like the idea of salt flying around in the house though. Guess it’s just an outdoor tool?


          • Geo
            If you use table salt it’s so fine you would probably never know any was shot. And I’m sure it’s a small amount when it does shoot.

            Don’t know about your wife. But my wife and daughters would rather not have any bug in the house. Especially any that sting or bite.


        • BB
          The Rural King by me had them on sale awhile back in the paper ads. My wife went to get one and they said they didn’t have them. Didn’t know what she was talking about. And yes I was disappointed.

          Go figure. Just my luck. But I will get one just to have one.

          But I’ll tell you what a 1/4 teaspoon of table salt in my 1322 with a long barrel and 10 pumps does a number on any insect I have shot at.

          But the repeating Bug A Salt I’m sure is cool for last follow up shots.

          Another got to have gun. I bet it’s fun. Guess I better mark it on the calendar to get one from PA on my next order. Otherwise I’ll forget again till I get reminded again.



          • GF1,

            It just opened like 2 weeks ago and I was in hurry when I went in and just did the perimeter loop quickly. Very nice. Like a TSC on steroids. We have a TSC too and from what I saw, they might be in trouble by store comparison. The Rural King took over a defunct Super K-Mart and used every square inch of it, and then some.

            On the Bug-A -Salt,… there was an (entire) aisle with 1 side full of them. Like 200 easy if not 300 units. The pink camo’s where on a big end cap. The store (really) seemed to embrace carrying them for some reason.

            Next time in I will give them and the store a closer look over.



      • Geo,

        I might have seen it,.. once. We have the Brown Recluse and Wolf around here and they can do some nasty stuff. The Recluse can cause you to loose a limb from a bite,…. but that is only about 5% in most cases. In lesser cases, they just removed the dying and decayed flesh from the affected area,…. yea ha!

        So yea,… whatever you call it,…. never been a fan of ’em. 🙂

        I had one “rappel” it’s way down from the car visor, just yesterday,… while driving. Fun! Not. A small one mind you,…. maybe tea cup saucer sized? 😉

        Chris


        • We have those spiders here in Michigan too. Those wolf spiders a big and hairy…and, they can jump too. I think the recluse spider is also known as the fiddler spider because their body is shaped like a fiddle.


          • Geo,

            Yes, the same. The “fiddle” comes from a mark on their back. The topic came up awhile back and I looked it up and yes you can see it,.. but it is not always obvious and can vary a bit in shape.

            That would be one to maybe do a capture, observe, verify and kill as opposed to a straight up kill on sight. I would rather verify that I had one in my house (possible others?) and attempt to take some counter measures. Do I do that? No,… but I should. Sadly, my instincts kick in and they meet their demise rather quickly. Once mashed, ID is a mute point. Something to think about doing though.

            Chris


        • Chris
          And just think what would of happened if you had a Bug A Salt.

          One blast in the mailbox and you would of been done.

          Well unless it was one of those spidy’s that was on steroids. 😉


    • Chris
      Brown Recluse and Wolf spiders here too.

      Got bit by one by the side of my elbow in my late 20’s. Still got a scar from it. And the Wolf spiders around here will jump knee high or more. Never been bit by a Wolf spider. But don’t want to find out either.

      And spiders don’t bother me. But I hate when they pop out of nowhere on there web hanging down at you staring you straight in the face.

      And have you ever seen any Banana spiders. They are bad boy’s too. And they make humongous webs. Usually going across the paths in woods. Not no fun hitting them when your blasting around a corner on a dirt bike or 4 wheeler and you get a face full of webs.

      Next time I run across one of their massive webs with them in it I’ll snap a picture and post it here.


  19. Sorting,…

    As many of you know, I have been playing with the various aspects of pellet sorting. I finally watched some video’s for the first time yesterday on the topic. Same as what I figured, but some new stuff as well.

    At any rate,… here is a link that is 6 parts (5 videos) from a fellow that takes this to inth degree for anyone even casually interested in the topic,..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbacOhMREB8

    I will be out today trying a few test of my own.
    1) Head sorted and then 4 pellets of one weight and 1 of another. (test = weight variance impact)
    2) Head and weight sorted and then 4 pellets of 1 skirt depth and 1 of another. (test = skirt depth impact)
    3) Random from the tin for comparison and for initial warm up
    ( All testing to occur at 50 yards)

    Back later,…. Chris



      • GF1,

        Nothing conclusive on shooting sorted pellets. 🙁 Long story short,…. 3 of a like type would make a nice tight hole. Then, the other like type (the 4th) would land off. Then,…. the 5th (odd pellet) might land in the middle of the 3 like ones.

        Of course there was some variance, but you get the idea. I am pretty bummed and will have to reconsider things. “Back to the drawing board”,… as they say.

        50 yards was a good choice as all of the groups were no more than 3/4?. Most 1/2″. I may push it out to 60 to get things to spread a bit more?


        • Chris
          I’m thinking that you should of weight sorted some pellets. And then pick 10 pellets that weighed the same.

          Then measure the skirt depth. Then shoot each pellet at a dot on your paper. In otherwards 10 dots on the paper and note where it hit on the paper.

          That way it will be easier to see where each pellet impacts verses trying to figure it out in one group. Not trying to tell you how to do it . Just saying the way I have done it in the past.


          • GF1,

            I not only head sorted, but also weight sorted. The skirt depth pellets were all of the same weight and head.

            Normal is to:
            1) Head sort, then
            2) Weight sort, then (now)
            3) Skirt sort

            I have not tried the 1 shot, 1 bull method and really do not see the need to as long as I can ascertain what pellet hole can be attributed to what pellet, especially the off pellet. That was another reason for maybe moving to 60.

            Regardless, my sorted pellets should have grouped and the off pellet should have landed off from the main group,…. even if by a little,… with repetition. Especially when I have taken away 2 of the most common variables,.. being head size and weight.


            • Chris
              Right if you know what each pellet is hitting at. It just makes it easier to see where each pellet hits if you do it the way I’m talking about.

              And you know that the next time you repeat your test you will probably have different results.

              The only way to get better results is make your shooting distance closer. And know that there will always be the chance for flyers to happen. No matter how hard you try to eliminate variables.


              • GF1,

                When five 1/4″ pellets land repeatedly into 1/2″ ~ 3/4″ at 50 yards,… closer is (not) the answer.

                1 shot per bull is nice and keeps things all separate,.. and such,… but it does not make it easy to compare group size.

                B.B. had pondered maybe taking this up. I guess that maybe he thought that he would just sit back and see what (I) came up with, first. No doubt,… he has been on this “block” before. Or at the least,…, has known/knows a few well renowned shooters that have,… and maybe still does. Perhaps B.B. is thinking that,.. “I would not touch this with a 10′ pole”,..? Perhaps not?

                The whole discipline is not an easy one, nor a quickly done one. Me? I will continue and re-try. Winter is coming up and I am sure that I will give things a further go. At least the sort bit.

                You? You have mentioned measuring length. Other things too. So,… in (your) opinion,.. is any of it worth it? Partial sort? Full, heads on wash,.. and sort to the inth degree? Lube? If you were to do it (again),…. what would Gunfun1 do? And of course,… why,.. or, why not.

                What say you? 😉



            • TT
              More or less that. What I believe happens is the die from the back of the pellet isn’t as consistent as the left or right side die when the lead gets squeezed.

              That will then make the head of the pellet weigh different from one pellet to the next.

              Chris sorted some skirt depths the other day after I suggested it to him. He found a almost a .010″ difference in skirt depth.

              What I was hoping he would do is note the skirt depths and see how those pellets fell when aimed at it’s on bullseye on the paper.

              There should be a point where the skirt depth changes the pellets head weight and changes how the pellet hits. That was what I seen in the past when I tested it. But it has to be tested on multiple groups with the same repeated as I described.


              • GF1,

                I did do that. Exactly that. To a T. Remember, I did 30 pellets and listed the depth/spread/% of all 30. I have done some since. Bottom line, the “off” pellet is not (consistently) showing up as an “off” shot.


                • Chris
                  Yes I remember.

                  But see what I said. There will be a point where a say 4 pellets with a skirt depth that are pretty close to the he same. And the other 6 that are say deeper will produce another poi result. At some point one of the pellet that is the deepest will produce a different result than the smaller depth.

                  And I’m going to post a picture of a group here in a second with my .25 Condor SS. And I purposely done something on the first 3 shots to show something.


  20. Chris
    Ok here is what I’m talking about. This group was shot at 50 yards. The group I shot is even 20 shots. So add up the odds there. And even a 7 mph crosswind from right to left.

    The first 3 shots I circled in black was done purposely. It was done by holding my trigger finger low on the blade down by the trigger gaurd. I found if I do that it throws the shot. All of the other 17 shots are with my trigger finger positioned higher on the blade. Up on top of the blade actually.

    So what I’m saying is sorting is part of it I guess. But even if you have that rest there might be something you still haven’t figured out on your gun.


    • GF1,

      Yes. Quite correct. It may be something else.

      The whole point of sorting is that you have eliminated variables,… so,… that you can focus on the other “finer” aspects (like you have illustrated),… that may or may not exist.

      So,.. I shall inquire once again,… would you sort again? If so, why and to what degree? If not (or not certain aspects),… why also. Do you remember well enough what made a difference worth doing? Or,.. did you finally just call it quits because even though you went to extreme efforts,… you still had fliers that were not explained?


      • Chris
        With the guns I have right now and the results I’m getting I have no need to sort for how I shoot.

        Do you remember me saying I took the baffles out of my Condor SS. I thought that was my accuracy problem. But I also did 2 things besides removing the baffles at that time. I started making sure the pellets were fully seated with a fair amount of thumb pressure when I load the pellet. Then I messed with changing trigger finger location on the blade.

        I found by testing separately that each made some difference. And done together it was the magic technique. So yes the baffles are back in.

        Now what needs to happen is I need to shoot several 100 yard groups and see what happens. The problem right now is the soybeans are in full growth. So no shooting out in the feild right now. The best I can do now is 130 yards if I set a target paper out past the feild at the tree line. So just not going there right now. I want to get some consitentcy at a 100 before I stretch it out farther.

        But so far now. No I don’t need to sort. My guns are getting what I expect of them at 50 yards.


      • Chris
        I got this email notification but didn’t not see your comment here.


        GF1, Oh,.. before I forget,…. I was bouncing between 24 mag. and 34 mag. today (separate groups) and no difference in hold over required. So yes,… the FFP is working out quite well. I had some descent light at target today and was able to do 34 quite nice.”

        Nice on the scope results. But I wouldn’t of changed that variable if I was testing the other things we talked about with sorting.


        • GF1,

          I have tested it before,.. so I was fairly confident. I just thought that I would pass the info. along, since you showed some previous interest in FFP scopes. And no, I would never adjust the mag. level in the middle of a group.




          • Chris
            I should of posted this earlier so people know what we are talking about.

            “GF1,

            Ok. I (respect) your opinion and experience,.. as well as Halfstep’s. Of the two,.. you are probably the more experienced on the topic of sorting. That is what I asked for, from you, and Halfstep gave a more expansive opinion where as you were a bit more elusive,… other than to agree with Halfstep.

            I am not trying to pit anyone against the other. You have done it. You have the experience. You have an opinion. If yours is Halfstep’s,.. then done.

            How many other air gun enthusiast have found themselves in this sorting quandary?

            If something made a difference,.. say so. If nothing made a difference,.. say so. If some things made a difference,… and others things not,… say so. If you are not sure and found the whole venture not worth it,… say that.

            Right, wrong or indifferent,… I was just asking for (your) opinion and experience. Nothing more.

            Chris”

            And here is what I agree with about Halfstep’s comment.

            “Halfstep
            September 2, 2018 at 5:25 pm
            Chris U,

            I guess if I were forced to give an opinion, I would be in more of the “hooey” camp.

            A) I’m not sure that the economical scales that one would probably use are accurate enough.

            B) I have Pelletgages in .177 and .22 ( so I HAVE obviously been on my own mission in this area ) and I have noticed that a pellet that won’t pass through a hole on one day will go through on another day. I assume that this is attributable to thermal expansion.

            C) Along those same lines, the materials that make up the “launch platform” of an air gun are subject to thermal expansion, so today’s ideal pellet head, skirt, and length dimension and overall weight, even if we could keep them constant, which we can’t, will likely be crap on another day when the gun is at a different temperature.

            D) The “overall” weight of the pellet is all that can really be measured. There is no method, that I know of, to measure weight distribution throughout the pellet. In the extreme, for instance, a bubble could be present far enough out near the periphery of the pellet that it causes an imbalance as the pellet spins, while at the same time, the pellet’s overall weight is within whatever arbitrary limit you set for it. The distribution could make the pellet head-heavy or tail-heavy, as well.

            E) Because of variations in material density, you could be rejecting pellets as too light, that are in every other, and I would argue, more important, aspect, perfect for shooting from your gun.

            And finally, F) I don’t think anyone has definitively proven what causes accuracy. Much has been written by smarter guys that me and they didn’t come up with “the” answer.

            Do I think that you MAY improve your groups in small measures, under SOME conditions? That answer would be yes, but beyond sorting for deformed pellets, I don’t think the results are worth the effort, for me.

            I wouldn’t share this opinion with you, normally, because I know that you put a lot of energy into this pursuit and I would be afraid you might think I was judging you or thought you were wasting your time. I’m not and I don’t, but I wanted to give you an honest answer, since you asked.

            I hope that you will, one day, be the guy that tells me exactly how to sort my pellets for some big improvements.

            Half”

            Chris
            Alot of shooting needs done to see if results repeat. Yo might be fighting the devil here so to speak. And probably making your shooting very unenjoyable right now.

            Just shoot and see what happens. Then take notes. You might just stumble on to something you never expected to happen. Things show up all of a sudden that you just go wow about.

            I know. Not what you want to hear. Or maybe I’m totally off what you are looking for. You tell me.


            • GF1,

              That is fine. As for enjoyment, I like to test something new when I shoot. An informal plan if you will. It could be anything.

              As for what I was looking for from you,…. (your) experiences.

              As a (fictional) example,….

              – I started out head sorting with calipers and found that when I shot pellets of the same head, my groups were better, but not always.

              – I next went to weighing and combined this with head sorting. I saw even more improvement,.. but not always.

              – Not happy yet, I went measuring pellet skirt depth and overall length. This again produced better results than before,… but not always.

              – Then washing pellets, as a first step. Then lubing pellets. Then,….. ?

              **** At this point you have tried 1 thing at a time and formed an opinion of each aspect and it’s perceived impact along the way. You are now doing all of the above to every pellet. Maybe you dropped some steps after trying them awhile? Maybe you feel that some steps are definitely worth the effort? Maybe you did all of the above right out the gate? Was there EVER any repeatable methods/results that you were happy with and used without fail?

              So what I was after was for to (you) to share (your “journey”) with sorting. The up’s, the down’s, your discoveries, your thoughts,… {then}, as you were doing it/living it.

              Chris


              • Chris
                Kind of like you described. But back then I was try different brand pellets to see what did or didn’t work in the guns I had.

                Sorting did help with certian brands. And then I found that JSB pellets where doing just as good right out of the tins what I was getting with the other brands that I sorted.

                So basically the JSB pellets do give the accuracy right out of the tin that I’m after. I can tell pretty easy if a gun is going to be a shooter when I try the JSB’s. Haven’t had other brands do better than JSB’s right of the tin. Had some brands almost equal JSB’s but not many.


              • Hey Chris USA,

                Im going to be way too frank. In my opinion you are chasing your tail over pellets.
                I think head size is important and so is weight but only as a percentage of the total measurement.

                As an example; in .177 a thousandth of an inch has significantly more of an impact than in .575 all other factors being equal; most importantly the barrel PSI behind the projectile.

                IS that a TRUE statement? Why?

                My opinion is that it is far more important and effective to study and practice fundamentals. Next is to KNOW your arm both technically and ballistically.
                And finally to find and then know your best projectile and if possible stockpile it by the case(s.)

                These three are by far more significant in my experience and that of many shooters far more capable than me.

                If after all that you have time (and the desire) left over you can measure individual projectiles since you will KNOW if the maker has closer diameter control or weight control, on that Lot of pellets.

                The study on “flyers” link that I shared with the blog a few days ago should make all this utterly clear.

                One final point. Do you think B.B. takes the time to scrutinize all the pellets he uses in his tests? Do you accept his results at least most of the time? Maybe we can get B.B. to answer that himself

                but then you already knew that is my position.

                shootski


                • shootski,

                  Unless I say otherwise, I do not sort pellets. I don’t believe that most shooters do, either. I want my tests to be the best they can expect under similar conditions.

                  Never forget that Dr. Mann spent 37 years and a small fortune trying to discover the reason behind fliers and never conclusively did. But he still wrote the only book that has ever been written about the subject — “The Bullet’s Flight, From Powder to Target.”

                  B.B.


                  • B.B.,

                    Happy Labor Day!
                    Thank you for your quick reply.
                    Dr. Mann would have enjoyed the current matmatical theories on flyers and how they substantiate his diligence, tremendous efforts and the yeoman effect to set it down in the book.

                    shootski


                • Shootski,

                  I have been thinking about you all afternoon,… as I am doing study on some the links you have provided in the recent past. Primal Rites is the main one at the moment and technique is the topic of current study.

                  So yes,… you can say that I may have changed course in my approach to accuracy. Notes made, more reading to do, more notes to be made and then of course, put this all into practice. While already aware of many basics, I was unaware of some of the truly finer points. Finer? Perhaps not. Perhaps main points.

                  At any rate,…. with limited time behind the trigger,… technique (which is a far reaching topic as you know) will be my next pursuit. One can think that they have “graduated” and then when they really dig into things,…. they are just a snot nosed 1st grader on their first day of school. 🙂

                  “… way too frank”,… you said? Frankly, I was a bit let down,… 😉

                  Thanks for the help and pointing me in the right direction on the finer points,… Chris


                  • Chris USA,

                    Happy Labor Day!

                    May your labors provide you good result and more joy.
                    We are all just students of the art of KAPOW!
                    Some few style themselves as Masters of the Art…

                    shootski


                    • Shootski,

                      A happy one to you as well!

                      As for “the art”, “KAPOW”, “style” and the “Masters”,…. I shall be happy with doing better than I have done prior. Progress. That is all I seek.

                      Chris


  21. By my count this is comment #200,
    I just wanted to be added to the hooey side of the pellet sorting debate. If I have to do that much set up to shoot well it has taken most of the fun out.
    Gerald


    • Gerald
      Exactly. Find what works in a gun and if it repeats results is what I’m after. And you come to find after you shoot long enough their will always be flyers. They are just going to happen. So that’s why I stopped sorting a long while back. Buy quality pellets and you can get away with not sorting for the most part.


    • Gerald,

      I agree…measuring, weighting, and sorting would not be worth the insignificantly smaller groups. Would definitely take all the fun out of shooting. GF1 has the right idea. Select the best pellet for your particular airgun and stay with it. I did some measuring of several different pellet brands and found out what I needed to know. JSBs were very consistent in head size. RWS Superdomes were very consistent also. Crosman domed pellets were all over the place on head size. My actual groups with my Urban indicated that JSBs were in fact the best pellet for my rifle. Groups with Crosman pellets were significantly larger. I am trying some H&N FTT pellets because Halfstep’s testing in his two Urbans indicated that they shot the smallest groups. I have yet to prove that is the case with my Urban though.


      • Geo791,
        I am on the Gunfun1 side of using quality pellets. I have not gone to measuring pellets but I have tried most of the ones you mentioned. I have a Marauder that likes the JSB’s so much better than any other pellet I tested that it is all I’ll use in it. I am using Air Arms pellets in my Gauntlet and they are doing quite well. GF1 suggested I try the JSB’s in it but when I placed my last order they were out of stock. I did get a tin of H&N FTT and gave them a try. They are not as good as the AA’s pellets and they hit about an inch and a half lower at 30 yards. A 7/8″ group compared to a 1/2″ group. I found that odd as they are very close to the same weight. I put a post it of the needed holdover on the tin so I remember it next time I load them.
        Gerald


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