by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Crosman Mark I target pistol.
A history of airguns
This report covers:
- History
- Mark II
- The pistol
- Two power levels
- Grips
- Sights
- The trigger
- Power
- The pinnacle of its time
- Ergonomics
- Modified guns
- How long do they hold?
- Summary
I wanted to write about the Crosman Mark I target pistol today, but was afraid I might have reported on it too many times in the recent past. However, when I looked, I discovered that I have never fully tested this airgun for you! I wrote about it back in 2005 and re-ran that report in July of 2015, but apparently I’ve never gone all the way and done a complete test. That ends today.
History
The .22 caliber Mark I Target pistols were made by Crosman from 1966 to 1983. In 1980 Crosman removed the power adjustment capability from the gun, so those made from ’66 to ’80 are called the first variation, while those made from ’80 to ’83 without power adjustment are called the second variation. The first variation guns are considered more desirable, only because of the additional feature of power adjustment.
Crosman called it a target pistol — and they were right.
Mark II
There is also a Mark II Target pistol that was the same pistol made in .177 caliber. They also have two variations that either have power adjustment (1966 to 1980) or not (1980 to 1986). Mark II pistols could also shoot steel BBs through their rifled steel barrels. Twenty years ago I thought, and also unfortunately wrote, that the Mark II wasn’t as accurate as the Mark I. It couldn’t be, I thought, because it had a “compromise” barrel that handled both lead pellets and steel BBs. My assumption was founded on the performance of my first Mark II that was indeed not as accurate as several Mark Is I had the pleasure of shooting. But then I got a Mark II that could shoot just as accurately and I had to eat my words — or would have if anyone ever read them. The truth is, the Mark II barrel is not a compromise. It’s a rifled steel barrel that you can also shoot steel BBs though, but who ever would?
The pistol
From this point on I will refer to the .22-caliber Mark I that I am testing, but almost everything will also apply to the Mark II, except for the caliber. This is a single-shot target pistol that comes with an adjustable trigger, adjustable sights and, on my first-variation gun, adjustable power.
That Allen screw in front of the trigger blade is where the adjustments are made.
The rear sight has a push-pull adjustment for windage and an elevation screw for up and down.
Power adjustment is via the small screw in the front of the frame.
Two power levels
Aside from the power adjustment screw that I never fool with, the pistol also has two power levels. Cock the striker to the first stop and you have low power. Stop two gives you high power. I will test both settings for you with a couple different pellets.
Grips
Crosman put a very nice set of target grips on the pistol. For right-handed shooters there is a thumb rest on the left side. And lefthand grips were made. Unfortunately that renders the pistol either right- or lefthand, but not both. However, the grips interchange, left and right, and you can swap out the thumbrest grip panel for a flat left-hand grip panel if you want an ambidextrous handgun.
The Mark II pistol originally came with black plastic grip panels and the Mark I came with mottled red and brown panels, but since they are completely interchangeable you can encounter any grip on any model today.
Sights
This is a real target pistol, so the front sight is a target post with an undercut on the back side that keeps the light from reflecting back at the shooter. It’s crisp and sharp and just what you want for shooting targets. And they have paired it with a rear notch that adjusts in both directions.
Unfortunately the Marks I and II were designed in the 1960s, when push-pull sight adjustments were considered good enough for airguns. To move the rear notch to the left you first loosen the left adjustment screw then tighten the right one and the notch slides silently left. How far it moves is anyone’s guess as there is no index mark to watch.
Elevation is a similar drill, with a screw that raises and lowers the rear leaf, independent of any indicators. So sight adjustment on this pistol is by-guess-and-by-golly.
The trigger
The Mark I trigger deserves some discussion. For one thing, it is both single stage and two-stage — depending on the power setting. Cock the gun to the low power level and the trigger is single stage. I can feel some creep (starting and stopping) in the trigger as it is pulled in this mode.
Cock the pistol to high power and the trigger becomes two-stage. It’s very crisp and precise.
You can adjust stage two of the trigger extremely fine because the adjustment works on the sear contact area. In fact, you need to be careful when you do this because the trigger can be made so sensitive that it is unsafe. I have mine adjusted perfectly for the way I shoot and I will measure it for you in Part 2.
Power
The Mark I isn’t a magnum air pistol, but it does have decent power. Running on one 12-gram CO2 cartridge in the grip, it has all the good and bad points of that gas.
The pinnacle of its time
Looking at a Mark I today it may not seem so special in light of other modern pellet pistols, but for the 1960s and ’70s it was on a level of its own. Nothing we knew of could touch it until Smith & Wesson brought out their models 78G and 79G in 1971. Of course there were some other air pistols around that were wonderful at the same time, but guns like the Webley Premier were much more expensive than the Crosman guns and got overlooked by most American airgunners.
Ergonomics
Ergonomics, or the study of how a product fits the user, wasn’t a big thing in the 1960s. Oh, many people were aware that a P-08 Luger fit the hand quite well, while a 1911 has a grip that needs to be learned, but most gun designers never gave fit much thought. That’s why custom makers like Al Biesen stood apart.
Well, the Mark I and II pistols were made to fit the hand much like a Luger. Even firearm owners noticed, because the Mark pistols were also much like the Ruger Mark I pistol that preceded it by several years. In fact, the Crosman Mark I could be said to be a lookalike air pistol.
The Ruger Mark I was a popular pistol in the ‘60s. Crosman copied it well.
It was this fit that captivated shooters more than anything. A Mark I Target just felt right in the hand, with the implication that it had to shoot like it looked and felt. And that is the reason behind the pistol’s popularity, I think
Modified guns
I could do a blog or two on just the modifications that have been done on the Mark I and II chassis. The guns that Tim McMurray has created are astounding. But this blog will not go in that direction. I want to look at and test the box-stock Mark pistol.
How long do they hold?
A lot of modern CO2 pistols say to remove the CO2 cartridge when you are finished shooting. Sometimes that’s for safety (a charged gun can still shoot anything), but sometimes it’s because the gun can’t sustain the gas under pressure for a long time.
The Mark I is different. I took this one from my drawer of air pistols and am pretty sure it has been holding the same CO2 cartridge for many years. The gun was still charged with gas when I test-fired it. Maybe you should remove the cartridge for safety reasons, but the gun will not suffer physically if you don’t.
Summary
This will be a fun report to write. I expect to hear from many readers who own one or more Crosman Mark pistols.
Tom,
Thanks for this entry. I had a Crosman Mark II target pistol many many years ago in high school. It was my first BB gun and I have fond memories of learning to shoot with it.
Lysander,
Had one in high school? Lucky guy!
B.B.
Merry Christmas and happy new year BB.
Who would shoot Steel BB’s ? A nine year old . That is when I got my Mk 2. I shot everything through it. Darts pellets BBS pins wadded with thread matches nails. You name It.
Eventually it broke. So it sat for decades. Then when I got into airguns again I took it apart to repair it. I discovered it had a safety lever that was broken off. So I put the pieces in a box for a couple years. One day I discovered a safety lever on eBay. I bought it and a seal kit. It is now the pride of my collection. And shoots very well and is very accurate. Looking forward to your report. As always
RacerX,
That’s the sort of memory I was hoping to dredge up! Thanks,
B.B.
I purchased a Mark i about 5 or so years ago. it is the most accurate air pistol I own. The only air pistol I ever had was more accurate was a FWB 65, but sold it a year or so ago to buy a TX200 MK III. This Mark I will out shoot both of my S&W 79gs and my S&W 78g. I can hit tennis balls hung in a tree at 30 yards when shooting from a seated two hand hold, if the wind is not blowing too hard. This is a great air gun. Too bad it is still not being made. Keep thinking I’ll run into a Mark II one day and add it to my collection.
Jonah,
Me too, on the Mark II.
B.B.
B.B.
Way back when I first encountered Co2 pistols in the early 70’s I could only (unfairly) compare them to the Slavia 618 and Crosman 101 that I had direct experience with. I did not appreciate the affects of temperature on the gas and was disappointed with the accuracy.
Would you please elaborate on your comment: “Running on one 12-gram CO2 cartridge in the grip, it has all the good and bad points of that gas.”
Thanks,
Hank
Hank,
Well the good points are the power over a number of shots and the ability to shoot round after round without cocking a spring.
The bad points are the temperature effects that you poijnted out and the cost vof the gas.
B.B.
Thanks B.B.
I keep on thinking about a Crosman 2240 but am still dubious about Co2. Canadian weather would limit it’s use to a couple of months in the summer. Sub-zero temperatures all winter are no good for Co2. The spring and fall temperature swings can be extreme as well – run the furnace at night and the airconditioner during the day.
Guess that a 2240 would be more to satisfy my curiosity rather than fill a need. Playing around swapping parts would be fun though – I have read Halfstep’s guest blogs a couple of times.
Have a great weekend!
Hank
Hank
I think you meant Hiveseekers guest blogs. He done a bunch with the Crosman custom shop 2240’s.
OOPS!
Yes – I meant Hiveseeker’s guest blogs!
Sorry about that!
Hank
Hank
Thought that’s what you meant. 🙂
Hank,
You can shoot CO2 guns in winter with making adjustments for the temperature. I have a 2240 that I have been inspired to modify due to Hiveseeker’s guest blogs. Here it is a high of 24F today and 19 tomorrow. To take the 2240 outside I know that it has to warm up after 3 or 4 shots. the other plan is to crack open the window and close it between shots. I guess where there is a will, there is a way.
Gerald
Gerald,
Thanks for the comments, As I said, I keep on thinking about getting a 2240 and putting a longer barrel on it.
I could see carrying it around for plinking and pesting while working on the property. 460 fps in a .22 pellet is enough for pests at close range – I’m not a pistol guy so it would have to be very close range!
The local (Canadian) airgun dealer has one on sale for $80. It may still happen. Darn, now I am thinking about them again!
Hank
Vana2,
I’m going to make this decision even harder for you! Check out quackebushairguns.com on his currently available page for 2540 (not a mistake) and other goodies!
shootski
Shootski
That is something I have wanted to do to many times and other things come up.
I would like to even do a .25 caliber long barrel 1322/77 with a steel breech and 1399 stock.
There are kits out there that will convert a 22xx or 13xx series guns to .25 caliber.
And why would anyone want do that? Just because you can. 🙂
Gunfun1,
With the right length barrel (12-16″) a hopped up valve and a larger CO2 source volume the .25 is a real pest thumper. I got one years ago and will never part with it…just too much fun making rats bounce! I really like the threaded barrel on Dennis’ steel breach over the set/grub screw(s) approach.
Certainly not a THUMP like an HPA conversion or one of the .25 caliber PCP Quackenbush pistols; or newer builds by others.
Plus…it shows DAQ’s progression as a builder from early efforts to current with all the other DAQs of various calibers in the gun room.
shootski
Shootski
Knowing how I am. If I did a 2240 based .25 caliber it would get turned into a regulated bottled pcp.
Just way too much cool stuff for the Crosman 22xx, 13xx and Discovery’s and Maximus and Marauder’s now days it ain’t funny.
Some pretty cool guns can be put together if you dig deep enough.
Gerald
I have shot my old 1077 in the past outside when it was cold. I just didn’t rapid fire it. And I was able to compensate my hold pretty easy if point of impact changed. I also had some 2240’s I converted to rifles with the Crosman steel breech and Discovery barrels and 1399 stock. They shot good in the cold too. And I’m talking upper 20’s and lower 30’s Fahrenheit.
Gunfun1,
you probably have more cold shooting experiance than I do. My point in the discussion is not to avoid CO2 shooting in the cold but to be awair of their limitations. I have the M17 pellet pistol that is a great replica of the PB model. In this weather I take time inside when refilling the pellet belt to give the pistol time to warm.
Gerald
Gerald
Right. I was just say’n what I have seen with Co2 guns and shooting in colder temperatures.
And yes the warm up in between when reloading is a help with shooting Co2 in the cold.
This may sound crazy but I have taken my side pistol grip cover off and cupped my hand around the Co2 cartridge and blew warm air on the cartridge to continue shooting in the cold.
And you can go as far as keeping a new cartridge under your arm pit to keep it warm and ready for when a old cartridge runs out.
What can I say. And yes I have done crazier things when I was a kid but we ain’t going there. This is a family oriented blog. 🙂
GF1, A big LOL.
Gerald
Well I left that pretty wide open didn’t I.
I meant other heat sources that don’t involve body heat.
🙂
Hank,
Do you or a friend have a basement large enough to shoot in? Local city ordinances don’t allow me to shoot outside in the back yard. So I shoot in my basement where the temperature is reasonably steady in the upper 60s F to low 70s F.
I have a 2240 and a custom shop 2300KT (pictured below). They are both very good pistols for indoor shooting.
Cstoehr,
Nice pistols – thanks for sharing the pictures!
Sorry that you are restricted by the city ordinances. Guess that someone was not careful enough and they thought it necessary to a law for safety reasons.
I can manage an honest 10 meters in the basement and do a fair amount of target shooting over the course of our long winter.
I am fortunate to live in a rural area where there are no restrictions on what I can shoot. Built myself a 55 yard shooting range in the backyard that sees a lot of use in the warmer weather.
My interest in the 2240 is for mainly outdoor plinking. If the 2240 muzzle blast is similar to that of the 1322 it might be a bit loud for in the house.
Hank
Hank,
Since I don’t have a 1322 or a sound meter, I really can’t say which is louder. Pyramyd AIR does rate the loudness of the 2240 as higher (4-Medium-High) than the 1322 (3-Medium), but only they can tell you what the equivalent difference in decibals is. I don’t think the 2240 is too loud for indoor use, but that is a personal opinion.
As for the city ordinances, I support them. In my neighborhood, the houses are much too close together to risk an errant or ricocheted shot hitting a pedestrian on the sidewalk or a car on the street.
Here’s another picture you might like. The Diana Chaser is similar to the 2240, although Pyramyd AIR rates the loudness of the Chaser as 3-Medium. For a short while, I was using a BSA 30 mm Red Dot Sight on the Chaser before I replaced it with the BSA 2X20 mm pistol scope. The picture shows the view I saw through the BSA dot sight at 10 meters to target. I don’t yet have a similar picture of the view through the pistol scope.
Cstoehr
If you can get a picture with the scope view it would be a great comparison.
I’m betting the scope cross hair is finer than the dot your seeing with the red dot sight.
Gunfun1
I think I tried and failed to get a satisfactory picture of the view through the pistol scope. Getting a picture with the dot sight was relatively easy because I was able to position the camera lens as close to the dot sight as I wanted. The long eye relief of the pistol scope complicated things significantly. I only have a very cheap Vivitar digital camera that was a 5 year service award from my employer.
Cstoehr
And ok you used a actual camera and not a camera on a phone.
The phone camera will compensate the distance away from the scope. Focus wise I’m talking. I use my pointing finger on the scope and my thumb set on the phone. That way I can stabilize the distance with the phone to the scope. All I do then is wait for the phone camera to focus then click the shot. It’s actually alot like shooting.
I learned that from using my I phone scope adapter. It’s just much easier with the phone scope adapter.
Oh and nice award though. But maybe not the right tool for the job. And not saying that in a negative way.
Cstoehr,
That looks like a well balanced pistole not just the weight but the features also. I bet it shoots very well.
Benji-Don,
Shooting the 2240 at 10 meters bench rested using the 2X20 pistol scope, I got 5/8″ groups with RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle, RWS Hobby, and H&N Sport pellets.
Shooting the 2300KT 0.22 caliber pistol at 10 meters bench rested using the Williams notch sight, I got the following 10 shot groups: RWS Hobby, 0.625″; H&N Sport, 0.875″; Beeman H&N Match, 0.688″; Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum, 0.813″; and Meisterkugeln Rifle, 0.938″.
Cstoehr,
Thanks for the group sizes, they are very good. I have a 2240 but I could not help myself and turned it into a rifle. It may be time to change it back. I have been having good luck with the AA Falcon pellets in quite a few guns.
Don
Benji-Don
If you like the 2240 rifle, then you will like the Chaser rifle. I was shooting my 0.22 caliber Chaser rifle on Saturday. I put a UTG 4X32, adjustable objective rifle scope (SCP-U432AODT2) on my Chaser rifle. At 10 meters shooting from a bench rest using the Stormrider magazines, I got 0.5″ 7 shot groups using Meisterkugeln Rifle, Hobby, H&N Sport, and Gamo Match Diabolo pellets.
Cstoehr,
I guess we think alike, the Chaser pistol-rifle combination was on sale a couple days ago and I ordered one. It should be here later this week. I am amazed at the features that come with the gun.
Benji-Don
My best 7 shot group yet at 10 meters bench rested using the 0.22 caliber Chaser rifle with the Stormrider magazine and the 4X32 rifle scope. 0.22 caliber Field Target Trophy, about 3/8″ (0.375″) center-to-center.
Here’s my 2240.
Here’s the 2300KT with the Williams notch sight mounted on the back.
Cstoehr
Those are good looking pistols.
And I have been forgetting to comment till your picture reminded me.
The Air Venturi intermount for the Benjamin 392and 397 works great. Just incase someone might be thinking about scoping or putting a dot sight on their 392 or 397. I even hold onto the the front of the scope and intermount to pump the gun. No point of impact change yet. Definitely a rigid set up.
/product/air-venturi-intermount-fits-benjamin-sheridan-multi-pump-rifles?a=2015
I’ve also got the Chaser pistol in 0.22 caliber. All three pistols, Chaser, 2240, and 2300KT are all very similar. One of these days I’m going to do some side-by-side shot testing of these three. I just can’t seem to find enough time for it.
The 2240 has walnut grips from Archer Airguns and the BSA Edge 2X20 pistol scope. The 2300KT has maple grips from Crosman Custom Shop, the 10.1 inch 0.22 caliber barrel, brass trigger shoe, and brass muzzle. When I get around to it, I’m going to put another BSA Edge 2X20 pistol scope on the 2300 KT. My Chaser pistol also has the BSA Edge scope on it.
Cstoehr
So you like that scope then.
What parallax is that scope set at?
Do you think it would work outside at around 20-40 yards? Focus is what I’m talking about. How much is it? Does Pyramyd AIR stock it?
Gunfun1
Here’s the link at Pyramyd AIR.
/product/bsa-2×20-pistol-scope-duplex-reticle?a=657
2x magnification
20mm objective lens
1″ tube
10mm exit pupil
25 feet field of view @ 100 yds
11-20″ eye relief
50 yds parallax setting
1/2 MOA
6.8″ long
7.5 oz
For 10 meter target shooting indoors, I like it a lot. I also tried a Simmons 4x pistol scope on the 2240, but it didn’t work as well for me. I think the combination of 4x magnification, long eye relief, and 50 yard parallax combined to magnify the variability of my aim and produce larger groups than with the BSA 2x pistol scope. Basically, it seemed to me to be harder to maintain a clear, stable view of the target with the 4x pistol scope. Every little shake of my hands seemed to be magnified exponentially.
My view through the BSA 2x pistol scope is much more stable.
Cstoehr
That sounds like a nice scope. I think it would work fine for outside shooting.
And yes that’s why I like lower magnification shooting. That scope wiggle thing. Lower magnification tends to eliminate that.
To me a low magnification scope is better than a dot sight in certian instances.
Plus with that low magnification you can get away with a higher parallax setting and still focus fine ad multiple distances.
Gunfun1
“To me a low magnification scope is better than a dot sight in certian instances.”
I completely agree with you. Take a look at the picture I posted above for Hank of the view through my BSA 30 mm dot sight at 10 meters to target. The BSA pistol scope gives me a much better view at that distance.
Cstoehr
Ok I’ll check it out. I didn’t see it.
Cstoehr
Checked it out.
Left you a reply above.
Hank,
Our Georgia “winter” was a balmy 60 degrees today, but we do see temps down to 15 degrees.
My CO2 revolver, a first variation .22 caliber Crosman 38T, gets shot mostly in the house.
“Sub-zero temperatures all winter are no good for Co2.”
I feel for you, man! One of my friends in Maine said it was MINUS 6 degrees at Eagle Lake, where he is doing geological work. I don’t even know if my CO2 revolver would work under those conditions, and I have no desire to find out!
Stay warm & happy shooting,
dave
Dave,
60 degrees would be nice, wouldn’t mind that all year round. The weather this year has been lousy – snow with unusually cold temperatures followed by days of above freezing temperatures that melts it all. “Damp-cold” 35 degrees is far more uncomfortable than the normal dry 20 degrees that is typical this time of year.
Good news/bad news/good news… Been making sawdust, the first fork did not work out but the second one is looking very nice!
Working on a traditional fork has reminded me of the techniques that I used as a kid, think that you will like it.
Santa brought me a Do-It buckshot pellet mold and I have begged 40 pounds of used car-wheel weights from the local garages – the next mild spell will see me casting a bunch of ammo.
Take care,
Hank
“Damp-cold”
I hear you; we had a bunch of that before it warmed up; I’ll take 20 degrees and dry any day over 35 and wet. #_#
“Working on a traditional fork has reminded me of the techniques that I used as a kid, think that you will like it.”
Hank, I’m sure I’ll love it! My wife said, as a kid, her brother was a crack shot with his [traditional fork] slingshot. I’ll be happy if I can make some soda cans dance at 10 yards. =>
Thanks & take care,
dave
Yes, the Luger grip angles are like nice bucket seats, the .45 govt.frame more like bench seats in the family wagon.
The Crosman 600, the S/W 78, 79g, and this Mk I are all on my wish list. Nice looking pistols, and good ergo’s too.
Rob
BB,
Now ya gone and it. Got me thinkin’ CO2 now.
RR,
Look outside and it will pass.
B.B.
BB,
Yep, does it every time.
BB
And where on the front of the frame is that power adjusting screw? I’m thinking below the barrel at the front of where the trigger gaurd starts.
And glad the gun still was holding Co2. But now what happens when you install a new cartridge and the seal took shape of the old cartridge you had in there all that time. Will the new cartridge fit the seal the same?
I think just for extra insurance to not mess the seal up that I would not leave a cartridge loaded in the gun. Even if that old cartridge does hold seal. Why take the chance. Especially with a older gun that you might not be able to get parts for anymore.
GF1,
Yes, that is where the power screw is. I left the cocking knobs in the picture to show it.
We shall see about whether the seal still works.
B.B.
BB
Does the power adjuster adjust the striker spring pressure or open or close the transfer port passage to the barrel?
GF1,
It adjusts the striker spring pressure.
B.B.
BB
That’s what I thought by looking at the top picture.
I bet you could use that screw to tune the pellet velocity to get the best accuracy out of that pellet.
I found that to be the case with my 392 I just got. It shoots it’s best at 3 pumps with the JSB 15.89’s.
You should do a test with a pellet you find to be the best. And shoot some small 5 shot groups after adjusting the screw a few turns at a time in or out and see if accuracy changes. And by that I mean group size. Not point of impact.
B.B.,
What a classic!
Shortly after I became an airgunner, I read about these and bought a MK II. It wasn’t extremely accurate — because I was the one shooting it. I will have to check the barrel to see what condition that bore might be in.
I then read that they had smooth bore barrels, unlike the MK Is. So I bought a MK I. Very nice. And I was a less lousy shot with a pistol by then. The MK I might have power adjustment, but I would have to look. One of the two pistols has black plastic grips instead of the wood grain. I found a New Old Stock pair of Crosman lefty grips for the Marks on a certain web site and bought them to put on the MK I.
I need to find the time to dust those off. I know just which drawer they’re in, too. :^)
Ah, from the golden age of Crosman.
Michael
Michael,
Now that’s a story! And now that you know the Mark II barrel is rifled, I bet it will become more accurate.
B.B.
B.B.,
I know for certain that I am!
Michael
B.B.,
Now that I think about it, I picked up a Smith & Wesson 78G and 79G around that same time and was struck by the similarities between those and the Marks.
Michael
Michael,
The S&W pistols were designed by an engineer who worked for Crosman prior to joining S&W.
B.B.
B.B.,
I have two 78Gs, but I remembered incorrectly about the 79G. I don’t have one of those. I bought the second 78G because it is an early one with box and manual. It has the trigger adjustment. Either it or the my first one was made in the actual S&W firearm plant.
The first one I got is a later one and is the very first .22 air pistol I’ve ever had. The guy I bought it from said he had Greg Gunter (I think I have that name right) reseal it and hot-rod it. I chronied it at room temperature, and it was shooting in the mid-500s (fps) with 11.9 grain Hobbies, which if I’m not mistaken is well over 7 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. It actually has a tiny bit of recoil and muzzle rise and is probably the loudest CO2 gun I have, except for my Palmer Cap-chur.
I recall both of them being tack drivers at 25 feet or so.
Michael
B.B.,
It bothered me that I wasn’t certain of the name of the CO2 tuner, so I looked at one of your very old reports on the S&Ws. DAVE Gunter. your velocity numbers, with the very same pellet, are what I recall mine doing, so I thought perhaps I conflated memories of your report and my actual air pistol. So I went into the basement and dug out both of my S&Ws and both Crosman MKs. On a paper tag I tied to the later, hot-rodded 78G I saw in my handwriting a list of velocities ranging from 535 to 547 with 11.9 gr. Hobbies.
Michael
Michael,
Yep. That’s hot for a 78G.
B.B.
BB
And I just noticed something. It looks like the pistol can be cocked from either side of the gun.
Although it looks like the grips are more for right hand shooters by looking at the top picture and the bottom picture. But I suppose a left hand shooter could still shoot the gun with those grips that are on the gun.
Gunfun1,
It is pretty uncomfortable and awkward to shoot left-handed. The thumb shelf protrudes quite a bit.
But we lefties have a number of options, and these pistols are worth the trouble. I lucked out and found a set of Crosman lefty grips, so they made them and sold some. Or one could make a lefty pair of grips.
Michael
Michael
Since it looks like the gun can be cocked on either side it makes me wonder why Crosman didn’t put ambidextrous grips on the gun in the first place.
And yep there are options as it goes. Maybe if someone wants to get into stock making, pistol grips might be the place to start. Maybe one day I’ll have more time. Then I might just try making some for one of my 1322’s I have. Sounds like some fun modding to me.
Gunfun1,
Probably because they were touting it as target gun and therefore had target grips mainly for the right handed shooter?
Siraniko
Siraniko
Possibly that could be it I suppose.
Although here is one of Crosman’s modern target pistols and it has ambidextrous grips.
/product/crosman-2300s?m=928
And it even says it has 2 power levels. I see it has the adjustable spring pressure adjustment for the striker spring. I wonder if it has two stage cocking. I never have owned the “S” model but I have bought parts through Crosman to modify a Discovery I had. Kind of interesting. Seems that Crosman did carry on with the features from the pistol BB is reviewing today.
GF1,
Regardless of what hand you shoot with, you use both cocking knobs to cock the pistol. Reach over from the top and pull both forward — just like an S&W 78/79.
And you are also right about the grips. A lefty can shoot the gun with the righthand grips.
B.B.
BB
Ok never thought that about reaching over the top and using both knobs to cock the pistol.
And how does that Ruger cock. It looks like there is a place to grip at the back of the action and you pull back. Is that right?
GF1,
That’s correct on the Ruger. You pull back on those two ears that stick out. I have a Bull Barreled version of that firearm that will put 10 shots into a 1/4″ hole at 40 yrds from a sandbag. They are terrific guns just like the pellet version.
/airgun-experience/why-the-sig-sauer-m17-asp-won/
Speaking of replicas, here’s a report from Dennis Adler, wherein he runs the Sig M17 pellet gun against his 9mm M17 in a number of training drills at 45 feet, for those who want to see the accuracy of real firearms in combat use.
Also GF, I have some very exiting stuff to share on that Onix PCP pistol that I mentioned here a few days ago. I was up until 6:00 this morning testing and fiddling with it, but I have more to do today and when I finish, I’ll share what I learned with you guys.
Half
Halfstep
Cool. I was wondering if you found any info on that pistol you got. Will be waiting to hear what you found.
LOL! This is a little bit off topic.
I was reading the Airgun Experience a little bit ago and Dennis Adler was talking about the new Sig ASP M17 and I noticed something. The new Sig Sauer P320 / M17 is an updated version of the venerable 1911! Except for the punky NATO round, the U.S. military has gone round full circle!
/airgun-experience/why-the-sig-sauer-m17-asp-won/
RR,
I just posted that same link. When will I learn to read the whole comment section before I post a comment?
Half
Half,
LOL! That’s OK. You posted for a different reason and in a response. I just stuck mine out there for everybody and nobody in particular.
Now I know why the P320 and the M17 are supposed to be great pistols and that is because the basic design of these pistols was perfected over one hundred years ago.
R.R.,
Not having a full sized newer Sig pistol…yet. I have only a theory that time will prove or disprove. The 1911 has a barrel that locks up with the slide and provides repeatability of POI as long as the slide to frame clearance is maintained and the barrel bushing remains stable. Only time and many rounds will prove my theory that 1911s have an inherently better design for long term consistent POI.
Did Browning really get the design as close as automatic pistol function will ever be to perfection!
Let the flaming begin!!! Lol!
shootski
Shootski,
I am certain you already know this, but not only was Browning famous for the .45 ACP and the 1911, he also invented the 9mm Parabellum and the High Power pistol which the rest were designed around.
I have on my asbestos jammies. Good night ya’ll.
R.R.,
John Moses Browning was an Outlier!
I have gotten to shoot most of his intentions to include the the land, sea and airborne Version of the M2!
The current climate in the world of airguns seems to be ripe once again for an Outlier(s) to make a giant step forward. Can we predict the ones who might be such outliers; are they at FX, Air Force, SigAir or some garage/shop getting ready to take those giant steps?
Will they get the support they need to make the breakthroughs?
shootski
Shootski,
I too have had the pleasure of shooting the Ma Deuce and many of his other designs, though I have not had the pleasure of handling the B.A.R.
As far as Outliers in the airgun world, all you have to do is look around and you see them everywhere. The early development of the PCP by Girandoni and others. Lincoln Jeffries is the father of the modern sproinger. AirForce brought the PCP to the commoners. Ed Schultz and team, first at TCFKAC and now at SigAir. FX has taken the PCP forward with leaps and bounds. Dennis Quakenbush and Gary Barnes have helped reintroduce the world to big bore airguns. The list goes on and on.
But let us not forget our very own Tom Gaylord. Through the years he has introduced to us this magical world. Without his writings, most of us would know little or nothing of it. He has also worked with, pushed and prodded many of these other Outliers to bring forth the worthy ideas that have become and will become the modern airgun.
We do indeed live in the dawning of the Golden Age Of Airguns. Will we see any giant leaps forward? Who knows. Let’s find out.
This was the blog that finally got me registered! I’ve been a reader for years.
I still have my Mk I, purchased in the late 60’s. I wish I had taken better care of it externally, but with your recommendation to use Pellgun oil regularly, I can tell you it still shoots very well. Not as good as my Izzy 46M, but hey… It has the fake wood look grip panels, and the power adjustment screw looks as ‘adjusted’ as your photo!
I also used it to teach my son to shoot, and use it, although not so frequently, to this day.
I’ll be following this series with great interest. On my Mk I, I don’t seem to remember the two power level cocking. I’m out of the house, so I can’t check it. Maybe that was a optional feature???
Steve
Mondial88,
Welcome to the blog. I’m glad we coaxed you into registering.
Wow — you still have a gun you bought back in the ’60s! Impressive.
I think you will find your pistol has two power levels. It wasn’t an option; they all had it. You are probably used to pulling the cocking handles all the way forward.
B.B.
Mondial88,
Welcome to the blog. One of my Marks didn’t register two power levels and I believe I discovered that the trigger adjustment can be turned in so far that the high power doesn’t catch. I could be wrong,it’s been awhile, but it may be worth a look if you find you really don’t have two settings.
Half
Half,
Thank you for that info. That is something I didn’t know!
B.B.
BB
I had a perfectly new Mark I in the early 70’s and keep it looking NIB but my wife kept pestering me for exotic stuff like food and clothes for her and our baby daughter and had to sell it. I was between tours of duty in the Navy. Letting go of my 68 650cc BSA Mk IV Spitfire motorcycle really hurt too. I worked two fulltime jobs to get it before I was married.
But the story ends well. I have three of those BSA’s and two Crosman Mark II’s and two Mark I parts guns now. Never did run them through a chrony yet. I wonder if the Mk II’s had the power spring set to high?
Just noticed, the Umarex Legends Cowboy lever action CO2 rifle is in stock. I can see an engraved and plated one just around the corner to match the Colt pistols. This may be costly for me !
Bob M
Speaking of 2240’s
Check out Baker Airguns ‘ BA Custom PCP Pellet Rifle ‘
Bob M
Bob M
Yep that’s what I’m talking about.
Looks pretty similar to my moded Maximus.
GF1
No doubt about it Crosman made a tinkerers dream with that airgun design. I have two 1377’S and a 2400 custom carbine myself.
Bob M
It looks like Baker air guns started out with a Maximus or Discovery and added the 1399 stock and dressed it up with some of their accessories they sell.
And a fine looking air gun I should say though. 🙂
GF1
Says he started with a 2240 and probably used the Discovery barrel as well as the air tube. But you got to wonder, why turn two guns into one? Purely a fun project to create a new model airgun.
If you got the parts from a donner or purchased them individually I could see it being cost effective. otherwise you have a lot of left over parts from two guns. Or …. you could use them to make a short barreled CO2 Discovery ! 🙂
Bob M
Bob M
Why he started with a 2240 I don’t know. I’m guessing he possibly gets lots of parts through Crosman so he gets a discount on the gun patrs. All I see is hegot a Maximus or Discovery and a 1322/77 or 2240 pistol grip and added a 1399 stock. Then the dress up parts.
And yes other guns can be made from left over parts if you do buy one gun to make another.
Heck at one time I bought a bunch of 1322/77 refurbs for $30 just to get the pistol grip assemblies to make the gun like I posted the picture of. And yes people bought the other parts to make other guns from.
It all depends on the cost at a given time what works out the best. But yep Crosman made a very modable or should I say parts changing friendly platform.
Bob M,
I am building a 1377, right now. A friend of mine talked me out of my previous one that was very accurate. My new one has a two stage adjustable trigger and a maximus .22 caliber barrel. I am making a stock and pump handle after reading Vana2’s report. If I am not too embarrassed I will post a picture when I get it all together.
I hope it is more accurate than my last one, but will probably be lucky if it is as good.
The 2240, 13XX, guns are a good platform to work from. So far I have had the best accuracy from the .22 caliber Maximus barrels.
Don
Don
I guess we all have some regrets for letting something go. Especially when you have invested so much in it or find out it can no longer be replaced. Replacing it with a better one really helps !
Post a pic for sure. You might get some good recommendations if you ask.
The internet has done wonders for the airgun sport.
Bob M
BB,
I have 2 Mark Is and a Mark II. I bought the Mark II for $ 39.92 ( marked down from $69.99 ) from a local sporting goods chain in 1981, about a year or two before they went out of business. I was given one Mark I about 1985 by a friend and co-worker because he got it in a firearms trade and was totally uninterested in “bb guns” and he knew that I was into airguns. I got a second Mark I from a very close friend after he went through a bad divorce and it was a gift from her on their second or third anniversary and he hadn’t shot it in years and he didn’t want the memories attached to it,so he gave it to me.
The two Mark Is have the power adjuster and the Mark II does not, just as you’ve said, because the .22 cals are pre-1980 and the .177 is post-1980. The curious thing is that the way the .177 pierces the CO2 is different than the .22s. It doesn’t have the lever in the cap like your gun and my .22s. It has a “button”, for lack of a better word, that you set against a hard surface while you push down on the gun. Was that part of the second variation or is it yet another variant?
Here’s some pics.
pic 2
Half,
I’ll address this on Monday. May I borrow your second image for Monday’s blog? Full credit to you, of course.
The button was an earlier piercing method that did not work as well as the later lever. The lever is more common. At least that is what I have always believed. I could be 180 out and not know it.
B.B.
Well it looks like we are in for a interesting Monday’s blog.
BB,
You or anyone else is free to use anything I post here. No credit required. I always get more from your blog than I can ever give hope to give back.
I can’t say for certain, but since the button is on the gun that I purchased after 1980 and the levers are on the earlier models ( one of which I know is original ) I think the lever was first and was later changed to the button. The lever type may be more common simply because the gun was made that way for more years. All just my best guess, though. The parts lists and owners manuals on Crosman’s website only address the button piercing cap.
Might make a good research project.
Half
Half,
I am hoping Crosman didn’t do it that way, because that means they were cheap[ening the product instead of making it better. But my gut tells me that you may be right and I have been deceiving myself all these years.
I will look into it.
B.B.
BB,
Telling myself that they did it to make it look more like the firearm is how I, personally, am able to sleep at night over the change. 🙂
Half
Half,
I researched the matter and you are correct — the button was a later design. I guess it was cheaper to produce.
B.B.
BB,
My MK II also has a different cocking knob. It’s knurled.
Also, just as you predicted, one of my MK Is has black grips and one has the brown swirly wood look grips.
Half,
That’s not the cocking knob. That is the loading bolt handle. The cocking knobs are midway up the gun and on both sides.
B.B.
BB,
You are right, of course. I was confusing it with my 1377. It is an older model that does have a cocking knob in that position and a sheet metal cover over the loading port, rather than the side bolt that they come with now.
Half
The MarkII’s box had more info about the gun than you get these days in the whole manual.
How’d that get in there??
“Good Day to one and all,…… Chris”
Had to get that out of the way. Internet down for 36+ hrs. for some obscure reason. Missed my early AM read and quick comment. 🙁 Been going through withdrawals all day! 😉 Perhaps the blog should have a “addict-ativity” rating from 1-10? 🙂 I am way past 10!
Chris
Chris
Welcome back. And how bout it. Lots happened in the last 36 hours.
But at least you can go back and read it all and catch back up. 😉
Can you breathe now? 🙂
GF1,
OK now,…. all caught up. Pushing 100 comments already for a Fri. blog. Cool topic and comments today.
Chris
Chris
Yep and go back to yesterday and the day before. More cool stuff.
Or maybe go back even more days. 😉
GF1,
It crapped out right after I posted yesterday early AM. All caught up now. “Comments RSS” is invaluable.
Chris
Chris
At least your back on track. 🙂
Chris USA,
Probably related to the internet outage experiences by CenturyLink customers.
Most of us who post on the comments are also at 11 too.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Yes,… Century Link. ATT got involved somewhere along the line as I also have Direct TV.
Glad to be back. Whew! 🙂
Chris
Siraniko and Chris
I have Direct TV and had no problems.
Well I do use the WiFi on my phone when at home. And 4G if out and about.
But been off work and home all these days for the holiday and as I said no problems.
GF1,
No issue with Direct TV. Them,… and Century Link seemed to have “hooked up”. Like air guns anymore,…. it is tuff to keep up on,.. who?,… own’s what?,……
Chris
Chris
I would say ATT is where it’s coming from. That’s who I have to pay my Direct TV bill to now.
And what can we do but pay the bill.
GF1,
Search CenturyLink. They had a (major) outage. Working today so no time to read up on it, but there appears to plenty of stuff on the web covering it. Will I get a prorated bill with credit for no service for 36-48 hours? Yea,… right. Like that would ever happen. 😉
Chris
Chris
Right don’t hold your breath. I’m sure they won’t do that.
GF1,
Speaking of .25 Gauntlet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m31uEinNLY
RR
Well what did you think about the .25 caliber Gauntlet from the video you posted? Looks to me like it’s right on track with the .22 reviews I seen and my.177 Gauntlet.
If I didn’t already have my .25 Condor SS I would get one of the .25 Gauntlets. Well and I’ll have to wait a bit longer now after getting my Hatsan bullmaster.
And speaking of the bullmaster. It’s cycling flawlessly with the JSB 10.34’s. And here’s one for ya since I’m a glutton for punishment. I got a bunch of the Daisy wadcutters I use for my WildFire plinking. So had to try them in my bullmaster. Heck they are 3 times less per tin than the JSB’s. And you know I’m shooting the bullmaster now and not the WildFire of course. 🙂
But have not had any cycling problems with them at all. The wadcutters with that flat nose I figured would sure cause feeding problems but nope. And another surprise. I have got several 1-1/2″ groups at 50 yards and 1-1/4″ groups at 35 yards with the Daisy wadcutters in the bullmaster. So very happy with that. At least I know I can use the Daisy wadcutters for plinking now. Oh and incase you missed it the bullmaster is well under a inch with the JSB 10.34’s and at a 1/2″ at 35 yards. And it’s basically what I was hoping for. I can get those feral cans all the way out at 60 yards with the JSB 10.34’s. The bullmaster is definitely a fun gun. And it’s even good on air use.
GF1,
When I saw that I thought of you. My thoughts? Not for me. Neither is the Bullmaster.
I am thinking I need to get another PCP. What yet, I do not know. I my hold out for the FX Dreamline.
As far as sproingers go, I am quite impressed with that HW30. If I get another “modern” sproinger I may end up with one of its bigger brothers.
I am glad you are enjoying that Bullmaster.
RR
Yep hav’n a blast with the bullmaster. I got my other guns out shooting with it today. But for some reason my bullmaster keeps cutting in line in front of the other guns. I’ll have to see if I can teach it some manners. It is awful “bull” headed though. 😉
But yep those 30’s are nice guns. And if your talking about it’s bigger brother the hw50 I’m sure you’ll like it too. Had one of those too. It was fun to shoot.
GF1,
I have been thinking of the HW50, but I also have an HW35 or HW95 on my mind. I will likely want something that if I feel like taking out some bushy tailed tree rats it will be up to it. I will also need something for my grandson to grow into. Right now that HW30 is just right for him and is one sweet shooter.
RR
Then you probably don’t need to get the 50. Got a good bunch of squirrel out to 35 yards with my 30.
Try some JSB 10.34’s in your 30. I think you will be happy.
GF1,
You said that before. I’ll have to see how it shoots and then I just might give it a try. I do prefer a little more oomph though. If the HW30 seems close I may end up with an HW50.
I have been thinking of getting a Marauder pistol and building a PRod Double carbine.
Whatever I figure to do next will likely be quite a few months from now though. There are a bunch of other things that will need my attention and money.
Such is life in the fast lane.
The Crosman 38T .22 revolver a cousin passed on to me, never had problems caused by leaving a CO2 cylinder in it. Eventually, due to age/use the seals deteriorated and gas started to leak. This one’s a keeper and will have it rebuilt.
A blessed and pressureable 2019 to all ye Airmen-and-women!
Basil,
Don’t forget to try some ATF sealant in place of Pellgunoil first. It seals about 80 percent of the leakers I encounter. Guns as old at 70 years.
B.B.
Thank you for the tip! Time to put these tips and suggestions in Notes or plain paper for easy access by Fawlty-brained types. 😉
FM
How long did it take for the seals to wear. Are you talking about the seal for the Co2 cartridge? Maybe leaving the cartridge in caused premature wear? Well again depends on how long it took for it to wear.
What I always wonder is why wouldn’t a person just shoot the Co2 out from that cartridge in the first place. Then you start with a new cartridge for the next session.
I can see leaving the 88 gram cartridge attached to a gun or bulk fill bottles. But don’t see it worthwhile for a 12 gram cartridge.
This 38T is circa 1965; cousin used it, quite effectively, as a rat-killer for the rodents in the green areas of the condo building where he lived. He wouldn’t change out the cylinder until the gas was exhausted, over a hunting period extending for days or weeks. After he moved, he gave me the gun, and it worked fine until the early 70s or so – I did tend to shoot it until the gas ran out, but the CO2 cylinder seal finally started leaking and the gun was put away. Will try the ATF trick and see if it will temporarily resuscitate, but still want to have it rebuilt. It’s a nostalgia thing – and it is a nice shooter, despite its limitations.
FM
I believe that BB is talking about the internal seals like o-rings and such. I’m not sure the ATF sealer will work for the cartridge seal.
If you try it and it helps that seal let us know. If it works on that seal also that will be great. But I bet you will almost have to use the ATF sealer on every cartridge to make sure that seal does not leak for that particular cartridge.
Basil,
Not ATF. ATF Sealant. Read this:
/blog/2016/01/a-proven-co2-fix-for-leaving-guns/
I does work on multi pumps, as well.
B.B.
BB
He probably meant ATF sealer. He just phrased it for short as ATF on his last comment.
But maybe not. Let’s see what he has to say.
Thank you; yes I knew you wrote “ATF sealant.” Fawlty writing, that was.
I have been working on a replacement of my previous 1322 with the Maximus Barrel. A friend of mine talked me out of it. It was one of my most accurate guns. I hope the new gun is as good or better. The new gun started out as a 1377 pistol. I put a 1322 metal breach along with a Maximus Hunter barrel on it. I then added the following trigger parts from a Marauder Pistol:
ITEM #,…PART #……………DESCRIPTION
29B……….2220-013……….SCREW, ADJUSTER……………………$12.35
29C……….2220-022……….SPRING, LINK…………………………….$3.09
29D……….2220-015……….HOUSING, ADJUSTER………………..$15.00
29E……….2220-024……….SPRING, SEAR……………………………$1.48
29F……….2220-026……….SCREW, 0-80 x .125, PPH…………….$1.15
29J……….2220-021……….SEAR…………………………………………..$5.25
29K……….2220-025……….PIN, DOWEL, .125 X .375 3……….$1.15
29L……….2220-023……….SPRING, TRIGGER………………………$2.24
29M……….2220-020……….LINK, TRIGGER…………………………..$5.36
29N……….1763-055……….SET SCREW, 4-40 x .312, OV PT……$1.15
29P……….2220-019……….TRIGGER……………………………………..$5.42
…………………………………………………………………..Total……………$53.64
29………….2220-103……….Assy, Grip Frame………This might be a better deal
I did not try to go this route. It is the same Assymbly from the Crosman Silouette PCP pistol.
I am stilll using the plastic pviot pin/barrel band drilled out for the longer barrel and the front blade filed off. I did add a solid steel pin though made from a drill bit. I may get a metal pviot pin/barrel band or just free float the barrel. I have had good luck with a free floated barrel on these in the past.
When I first put the barrel on and shot it a few times it sounded anemic and retained a significant amount of air after each shot. I reamed out the transfer port untill the walls were very thin on each end. I then added about 3/8 ths of an inch of preload on the hammer spring by puttting a plug in the tube cap. I may add a spring guide and a stronger spring later if these changes does not take care of anemia.
I also worked a little on the barrel crown and leade to smooth things up but will hold off untill I get some trigger time in and see what the accuracy turns out to be. I have a couple more Maximus barrels to try if this one is not up to shuff.
I then made a wood stock and pump handle inspired by Vana2’s report. Let me say up front I am not artistic at all. I tried to have funktion over form. It least that is my excuse. I think I spent more time building jigs and tools than I did bulding the stock.
Here is a picture and I am off to get some trigger time wish me luck.
Don
Don,
Nice job! Nice, comfy porch as well. Always interesting to see what you come up with. Aren’t we over-scoped a wee bit? 😉 I just love those part’s costs. Very reasonable in my opinion and super great that they are even available to the consumer. A (TRUE) model for the industry.
Chris
Chris U,
Can an accurate gun be over-scoped? I am expecting great things from this gun, time will tell. So far so good. I will say that the scope is fantastic. You replied while I was writing the comment below.
And yep the tuned stock triggers can be very good but not as good as this one. So far this gun is so easy to shoot from a bench rest, easier than my M-rod. The flat base and vertical sides on the pump handle lock right into the rest. I also made the pump handle longer than stock just for the rest.
Don
Don,
Quite true on the over-scoped comment. Though some,…. ok most,…. would consider it over-kill by a long ways. I,… on the other hand tend to side with you. You want to show what the best is?,…. put the best sights on it you have. No excuses that way,… at least on the sight view part of it.
Chris
My 13XX seems to have some promise. I finally get to shoot it after a couple of weeks putting it together.
Chris U, you will recognize the scope, I picked based on the one on your Red Wolf. It is a very good scope. Mine does not focus less than about 13 yards. Not a big deal on a longer distance gun.
/product/athlon-optics-8-34×56-argos-btr-tactical-rifle-scope-ffp-ill-apmr?a=7832
Another thing I forgot to mention is that the hammer is locked by the sear so it cannot be cocked without pulling the trigger until the end of the hammer is past the sear. Not a big deal and could be fixed using the a hammer designed for this trigger group.
The gun is still anemic I started out using 10 pumps and after the first two (not sure why they did not show valve lock) each shot was lower on the target. I will need to pull the valve and see what is going on.
The target below shows my progress so far. I shot Crosman Premiers 14.3 gr 5 pumps, Falcon 13.43 gr 6 pumps and JSB 15.89 gr. at 12 yards. I tried using 7 pumps on the JSB pellets and the first two shots showed valve lock, I then used 6 pumps for 5 more shots.. The Falcons were the best.
I then moved to 25 yards and shot two groups the first was with the Falcons and the second was with the JSB pellets all with 6 pumps. The Falcons were the best again. I think the valve caused the JSB’s to have the vertical group.
We I say the gun is a success so far. With the new stock set up for bench rest it is a pleasure to shoot, solid as a rock and once the rest is set up for vertical on the rifle it stays there from shot to shot even removing and pumping between shots. The follow through is great, the cross hairs stay right on target all the way through the shot till the pellet hits paper.
The gun should get more accurate with more shots and when I learn what it likes.
The next step will be to get out the Chrony and work on the valve. It may loosen up with more shooting but I think something may be binding up. I have not had this problem before.
Below is the target, sorry I had it upside down in my hurry to test out the gun.
Don
Don
And you didn’t have the target posted yet when I commented.
Again looks like it’s shooting nice.
I haven’t tried a 13xx or 24xx series gun with a Maximus barrel yet. But looks like a nice combination so far. The Discovery barrels have done good for me in the past on these guns. And I have been wanting to try the Maximus barrels to see what they are like in these types of guns. They are for sure good barrels with the Maximus guns. And looks like they are doing good with the 13xx set up.
Do you have a .177 barrel to try with the gun you made? I have had good luck with the Discovery.177 barrels. Actually they worked better than the .22 Discovery barrels. They shoot flatter and make better velocity. If so I would like to see a comparison in groups if you get a chance to try it.
GF1,
I do have a couple of .177 Maximus barrels. I have not been as happy with them so far but my experience is limited. Once I have worked out the tune on the .22 barrel I will try a 177. Remind me if I forget.
Like I said before I think the Discovery barrels are the same as the 2260. I want to get a 2260 at some point and try both a .22 and .177 Maximus barrel on it. I think the Maximus barrel on a 2260 would make a great gun with no other changes. Kate won’t let me play with Hers so I need to get my own.
Don
I have not tryed a .177 Maximus barrel so you are right with what you seen.
And why get a 2260 when you got the gun you just made.
I say try the
177 barrel on this gun you gave already. And it may be a good thing and show if one caliber might be better than another for a pumper.
I would like to see the results.
GF1,
This gun is getting my best effort both the good and bad. I would like to see a 2260 with a Maximus barrel. I don’t think it will be better but would be better than a stock 2260, especially with the 2240 valve to give a flatter power curve. Just my pondering.
Have you ever seen a 13XX with this kind of valve lock?? I sure have not. This is a first for me. Sometimes they keep a little air on ten plus pumps but this one stores more air after each shot. If the valve volume was large this could be good and give a couple of extra shots. I have never went the steroid route before but may on this one, if I have to work on the valve anyway. This pump force was increasing at the end of the stroke on the first pump. So the piston is hitting the end of the compression chamber. It would be nice to eliminate the plastic piston guide for an adjustable metal one.
I just remembered that my buddy who got my last gun like this has an older version of the 1322 with the brass valve that he wanted me to have. I now think I have a good reason the get the pistol from him and use the best parts from both. I don’t remember if they have the plastic piston guide, I think not. He is only a couple of hundred miles away, do I drive or have him mail it?
Now if this gun had the piston geometry of the Apache Fireball and the valve volume it would compete with the PCPs. So far the Apache Fireball rifles have the best pump dimensions I have tested. It can even power a .25 caliber with a very reasonable amount of effort.
Don
Can the barrel and the pellet make the valve act that way?
And does the 2260 have a different valve than a 2240? I haven’t checked the part numbers.
GF1,
Ok great question. I will answer the second question first. I looked it up and see that they have the same valve. So the valve is better tuned for the 2240 than the 2260. I would guess it is the barrel making the difference.
Ok so here is my question. As long as there is liquid CO2 in the capsule if you wait long enough there should be no power curve other than that caused by the change in gas volume in the CO2 cartridge. If anything that should increase the velocity as the liquid is lost due to more gas volume. So what gives the vapor pressure of the CO2 should not change as long as liquid is available. If you wait long enough there should be a perfect gas pressure for each shot. Guess it is all temperature related???
For the 13XX it is not my first rodeo, Yes the barrel and pellet make a difference but this is my first one to show this degree of valve lock. I am sure it can be fixed, one way or another. I don’t want to add weight to the hammer/striker that will only add to the harmonics of the system. I wonder if somehow this valve is allowing more area from the exhaust valve to be acted on by the valve pressure?? That will be the first thing I look at other than some obvious binding in the valve guide.
I have already had this gun apart more than is good for it but the valve will have to come out. Based on what I have done so far a new 1322 is a small price to pay if needed. Or even better get my Buddies old 1377 version with the brass valve.
Don
With the 2260 as in tuned better for the barrel. I’m guessing you mean the longer 2260 barrel compared to the shorter 2240 barrel and the velocity difference being better with the longer 2260 barrel. I’m thinking that’s more about the barrel than the valve. But then again. Does the 2240 use a different size transfer port opening than the 2260. That will make a difference too.
And Co2. Yep that’s whole different ball game.
And why do you think the brass valve from your buddy is the way to go? Maybe it’s more about the valve you have not working right? But yep if you get your buddy’s brass valve and things change. Well then you need to determine what with the valve made the change.
Well sounds like you got some stuff going on to keep you busy for a while now
And since we are talking pumpers. Did you see the comment I made that my 392 shoots the most accurately at 3 pumps. I wonder if that would change if it had a different barrel or a different valve or transfer port opening. Questions, questions. Always more questions all the time.
Don,
Nice testing, as usual. I think that 15 yards is the min. on the scope if I recall. My “long” indoor is 41′, but doable with the Athlon. Glad you tried one. I really like the FFP feature. Indoor is not much good with the RW, M-rod and Maximus,…. with the exception that it (is) trigger time. I do suppose that (is) always a good thing to keep the “feel”. I can not speak to the performance issues of your build, as have not played with the parts like you have. Best wishes though on getting it all figured out.
Chris
Don
Very nice job. To bad there isn’t a power adjuster for the striker spring from Crosman that fits the 13xx series guns like the 2300S uses. Then you would have the complete package.
Definitely a nice job though on the stock. And you must have a long arm reach. That’s a long legnth of pull on your stock. Just say’n. And nevermind my comment. Really I would be proud to own that gun you made. I don’t think I could do that good of job on the stock. Well done. 🙂
GF1,
I may put a power adjuster on the gun at some point. The way the gun is acting I really don’t think it would make a difference. I added 3/8 th inch of preload and not much change. I need to look at the valve.
I left the stock long on purpose but it seems to fit ok off hand. I plan on cutting it off and maybe add a rubber butt plate at some point. I think my wingspan is about 6 feet so not a long pull for me. So far I am happy with the way the stock came out. It is not Purdy but is seems to work well. Especially the pump handle, It came out great I added a few inches on the front.
Here is a picture
Don
You did a great job on the stock and it has nice grain.
What kind of wood is it. And how long did it take you to make the stock?
GF1,
I think the wood is Douglas Fir, it came from some old drawers I took out of the house this year and couldn’t throw away. The drawers are about 80 years old so the wood is very stable and has fine grains. It is a soft wood so it is easy to work with. I put some varathane on it to help protect it. I will ask my Brother in Law he is a cabinet maker and knows wood.
It took me a couple of weeks to build the stock. Much of that time was spent making jigs and tools. I made a router table that attaches to my table saw for a fence. I would say a router is mandatory in making a stock. As a machinist you will have no trouble making a stock. I am way better with metal than wood. The big difference with wood is you need to wait between steps for stuff to dry, not my personality. I like to weld it and use it immediately. With wood most of the time is waiting on glue or finish to dry. The stock was still tacky today but I went ahead and put it together for testing. I just can’t wait.
The pump handle is two pieces of wood glued together and the stock is three pieces of wood. The stock was three pieces because I felt it would be easier to fit to the pistol grip that way. I filled the pistol grip will aluminum plate and JB weld so I could get a better fit and add an extra screw to the stock. I wanted to stick more to the gun and not step on Vana2’s stock series. I don’t think I can as mine are very crude compared to his.
Don
My dad mad guitars as his hobby. Way to much time involved with wood working.
Like you mentioned. I work with steel. I want to see my results right now too. Never did like to take the time for woodworking.
One of these days though I’m going to give it a try. Making a stock that is. God only knows how that will go.
Don,
That picture alone shows some real craftsmanship. Cutting a rough shape and shaping it is one thing. Getting the action to fit INSIDE would be quite another thing,… I would think. Fine, fine job for a first attempt.
Chris
Chris
Remember when I made a 1322 into a rifle using Discovery parts and stock.
Definitely had to do some routing work to get it to fit the pump mechanism.
Benji Don did some fine wood working. Hands down he did a nice job on his stock.
GF1,
I agree. Inletting the action and all of (inner) contours of the wood is what has me interested.
Chris
GF1,
Up close it is not a work of art. Well maybe caveman art. Well maybe not even that. It is harder to see all the flaws from the pictures.
Don
You know what. When a person makes something they know all the flaws that the finished product has.
But when someone else see’s it they usually have no clue of all the flaws that the maker knows is there.
Really you did a fine job on your stock. 🙂
Don,
What about gluing popsicle sticks together to make a stock? That is more my “speed”. 😉 Hey,… I did do a pretty mean log cabin back in the 1st grade! 🙂
Chris
Chris U,
The key is to take your time and think it through. I have no doubt you can do better than I did. I had two lines on the bottom of the stock. The line I cut was the wrong one. It followed the lines of the Crosman plastic stock. Mine was supposed to have a bottom line parallel to the barrel for bench rest I cut the wrong line. I do not have patience to start over.
Pic2
Backside
Sorry to post so many pictures but you had to see this one..
Chris,
My cousin made fiddles as a hobby. He made two out of matchsticks. I don’t know for sure how many he made but he is a real craftsman. He could actually play the matchstick fiddles. Here are a few pictures I captured from a video made for the South Haven Tribune in an interview.
If anyone is interested, I have the original video interview which is pretty interesting. He shows some of the various stages and tools used. The video is only five minutes long but the file size is about 20 MB. I would be happy to email it to anyone interested. I’m pretty proud of my cousin. He is 87 years of age now and I have not seen him in a while.
Geo,
That is some incredible woodwork there, I am guessing all of the pieces were not matchstick art.
Mike
Geo,
Those are the work of a master, beautiful. I could not make a fiddle like that no matter how much time I spent.
Thanks for the pictures.
Geo,
That is some pretty cool stuff. I have not heard of matchstick art in decades. I remember hearing of it as kid. The other pictures are great as well. He is a fine craftsman in the truest sense.
Chris
Chris,
I saw a full-sized Rolls Royce Silver Ghost made from matchsticks in the Ripley’s Believe-iI-Or-Not museum in Orlando.
B.B.
B.B.,
With the work on my 13XX I almost forgot. I am pretty sure that my cousin had a Mark II. It was a great shooter. Him with the pistol and me with the Benjamin 312 ruled the town that summer in Idaho. One day we were in his bedroom and he was putting in a new CO2 cartridge and some how it got away. I mean the CO2 cartridge. I do not know what he did but it circled the room at least two times with minimal damage and missed both of us. Can you show how the cartridge is held in place while tightening. For some reason I think he released the clamp. While we lived through that mistake it did start a summer of building rocket motors and other not so …. devices. Those were the good old days.
Don
Don,
Look at the screw threads on the cap in Monday’s blog. It is next to impossible for the cartridge to get away like that.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks, I know the gun was new in the mid 1960’s and looked like the Mark I and II. It also shot BBs. If I can track my cousin down I will see if he remembers. Maybe it was a Daisy 200?? and it was not as accurate as I remember.
Don
Do you remember the Co2 airplanes and cars that was tethered to a line you secured for point A and point B?
The plane and cars had a special valve you attached to the Co2 cartridge you placed in the plane or car. It flipped open then sent the car or plane flying down the line. Was pretty fun stuff. And you wouldn’t believe how fast they got going. Too bad they don’t make them now days. I would definitely have the air plane one.
What a beautiful day this has been so far. The air is warm, the wind is calm, the sky is bright and the Webley Service Mark II and I have been spending a good bit of time on the back porch.
What are you doing reading this?! Go outside and shoot!
Well, I just spent a bit of time with the Webley Senior. Resting it directly on my bags and holding it as lightly as I can it was shooting about eight inches high! That was at ten yards and the sight is adjusted down as far as it will go!
Her and I are going to have to spend a lot more time together.
RR,
“Her and I are going to have to spend a lot more time together”,……..?
Being married and such,…. not so sure that is a good idea. 😉 Or,… at the very least,…. you might want to clarify.
Soooooo?,….. What is the plan on the 8″ high @ 10 yards? B.B.’s report’s are of no help?
Chris
Chris,
Kathy doesn’t get too jealous most of the time. When she is feeling a little neglected though, she is not shy about letting me know. 😉
As far as the Webley Senior, I will have to learn how she likes to be held. 😉
RR,
Maybe ask the guy that owned it last. 🙂 That (is) a pretty big difference in trajectory.
Chris
Chris,
Indeed! I will have to be looking her over very carefully and possibly going inside.
One possibility is the combination of how I was holding / resting her with the recoil. I was using two bags, resting the compression chamber and the pistol butt directly on the bags and holding her as gently as I could to squeeze the trigger. The recoil of this pistol is surprisingly considerable and is toward the rear as in a powder burner. This causes a considerable muzzle jump and if the pellet is still in the barrel at that time, the shot is most definitely going high.
Other contributing factors are the mass of the pistol and the angle of the grip. Most Webley pistols are a bit more massive than this pistol and the grips slant more to the rear than this. The slanted grip repositions your hand AND places more mass of the pistol forward of the fulcrum point. If all else is equal, you have less muzzle rise. My Izzy has a very angled grip and has almost all of its mass forward of the fulcrum point. Add in low mass of projectile and low power level and you really have to pay attention to notice any muzzle rise.
This is one of the contributing factors of why so many have trouble shooting accurately with a 1911. The grip is more vertical, centering more of the mass over your hand. Combining the power of the .45 ACP round with this and you have a generous muzzle rise.
As with the 1911, which happens to be my favorite handgun, I must learn her ways.
RR,
A tight(er) hold might be my first try. Also, Shootski mentioned minimal finger pressure on some gun he was shooting recently. I forget the details now, but only one finger really applied any real pressure to the grip. Pretty much like proper rifle method. The rest,… were just along for the ride, so to speak. Good luck.
Chris
Chris,
Probably the 1911. Your middle finger pulls the pistol in tight and your ring and pinkie just barely touch.
It will take me a while, but I am quite confident I will learn how she likes to dance.
BB,
Do you happen to know how much the Eley Wasp pellet weighs?
RR,
I just weighed some for you. Most were 14.4 grains, with some going as high as 14.6 grains. They were pretty consistent.
B.B.
Thanks!
RR,
I see B.B. weighed some. I did find this in his past articles on the gun,….
“The .22-caliber JSB Exact RS dome weighs 13.43 grains, compared to the Wasp’s 14.5.”
So,… that falls right in line.
Chris
Hajimoto posted a nice video review of the new Gauntlet .25 caliber a few days ago. He gets a little deeper into the inner workings of the rifle than most other reviewers. A couple of things I found particularly interesting. One was the cracked air stripper, and two, the fact that the .25 barrel OD is the exact same size as the .22 barrel OD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNwNaAHl-CI&feature=em-uploademail