by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Springfield Armory M1 Carbine BB gun.
This report covers:
- Maxed out
- The test
- Charging
- OOPs!
- Problem number 2
- How to get the empty cartridge out
- Cartridge out
- Will the second cartridge seal?
- Oh, boy!
- Daisy BBs
- Air Venturi Dust Devils
- Hornady Black Diamond
- Smart Shot
- Shot count
- Feed
- Trigger pull
- Summary
There is lots of interest in this BB gun lookalike! Several of you have owned Carbines in the past, or own them now, and reader Bob M is following this report and also reporting on his conversion of an airsoft Carbine from semiauto to full auto. While full auto is interesting to many, I don’t think the Carbine is the right gun for it. The firearm had a not-so-bright history with Rock-N-Roll.The M2 Carbine that is select-fire is known to wear out more rapidly in the full auto mode. More rapidly than what, you ask? Than the standard semiautomatic Carbine.
Maxed out
The Carbine is a weapon that is stressed to the limits of the technology that was available when they were produced in the early 1940s. It’s funny — shooters today think the Carbine cartridge is weak, and its ballistics seem to support that opinion. But the cartridge is rated to 40,000 psi (CUP, for you reloaders) which is well beyond the pressure generated by the .357 Magnum cartridge.
Wearout happens first to the replaceable parts — particularly the extractor. The barrel goes next, getting too large just ahead of the chamber and also in the bore. Finally cracks can develop in the frame, and when that happens the rifle can no longer be salvaged, though its removable parts may be used again if they are still serviceable.
Of course we are looking at the M1 Carbine BB gun that has none of these issues. However, I don’t think making it full auto is something I will ever do. But I’m also an old fogey. You can do as you please.
Today we are looking at the power potential of this CO2-powered BB gun. The magazine holds up to 15 rounds and also contains the CO2 cartridge and the firing valve. So, in reality, the magazine is an essential part of the gun’s powerplant.
The test
I will be testing a couple different premium steel BBs, and I don’t expect to see much variation in their performance. I will also test lead BBs and frangible BBs, just so we know the whole story. Let’s go!
Charging
The first step is to install a CO2 cartridge. The piercing cap is screwed in with the Allen wrench provided with the Carbine. That presses the CO2 cartridge against the piercing pin.
OOPs!
And that’s when it happened. My best-laid plans gang aft agley. When I tightened the piercing cap the gas hissed out very rapidly and never did seal. There are three primary possibilities when this happens. Either a seal is broken, or it is not properly seated (like an o-ring in its groove) or there is a piece of dirt on the seal that’s letting the gas escape.
Stuff like this happens to me all the time. Years ago I would just write a different blog and quietly fix the problem without telling you readers, but then I figured you must be going though the same things. It might be nice to see what I do with a problem like this so you have something to fall back on.
Here is what I did. Since this gun is brand new I reckoned the seals weren’t broken. There was probably either some dirt on the seals or they weren’t seated correctly yet. I would remove the empty cartridge and install a fresh one with some automatic transmission fluid (ATF) sealant on it. The new cartridge might blow the dirt out of the way and the ATF sealant might lubricate the seals, making them slippery so this could happen easier. If the seal wasn’t seated, another shot of CO2 might blow it into position.
Problem number 2
And that’s when problem number two reared its ugly head. The now-empty cartridge wasn’t coming out! It was stuck in the magazine and no amount of persuasion would budge it. A problem on top of another problem!
How to get the empty cartridge out
There are a couple ways to get the empty cartridge out. The quickest is to use a rare earth magnet of sufficient power to pull the cartridge out. Or you could drill a hole on the end of the cartridge and screw in a wood screw that will grab the cartridge right away. But I did something else.
I mixed up some JB Kwik, the 6-minute version of JB Weld, an epoxy that’s used for repairs. I cleaned the exposed end of the empty cartridge with acetone, then dropped the JB Kwik on the end and stuck the end of a machine screw to the blob of glue.
I positioned the head of a machine screw in the blob of JB Kwik epoxy that was on the end of the CO2 cartridge, and held it there for a few minutes.
Cartridge out
Once the epoxy set up I let it cure for about 4 hours, as I pondered how to hold the screw for cartridge extraction. I decided to put the shank of the screw in a vise and tap the top of the magazine with a rubber hammer. As I pondered this after the 4 hours were up I grabbed hold of the machine screw to see if it was glued tightly and, lo and behold, the entire cartridge came out of the magazine easily! Of course it did!
When I played with the screw to see if it would hold I pulled the empty CO2 cartridge out easily.
I think the cartridge knew that I knew how to remove it and just gave up. Inanimate objects will do that when they know they’re beaten!
Will the second cartridge seal?
Now that the magazine was clear it was time to put in the second cartridge. For the first CO2 cartridge I had used a Sig CO2 cartridge, so I tried an ASG UltraAir cartridge next. I did that because CO2 cartridges come in different dimensions and lengths. If one is too tight, another one may not be.
Before putting this cartridge into the magazine I dropped in many drops (20?) of ATF sealant. Then the cartridge went in and suddenly everything was together again. This one hissed for a second then grew instantly quiet, telling me it had sealed. That is the sound of a seal being blown into place. The test to see if the cartridge is pierced well is to pull the trigger, so I did.
Oh, boy!
I had forgotten entirely that this M1 Carbine has blowback. When I pulled the trigger there was quite a surprising reminder, in the way of recoil. This little airgun has some kick. Put that in the plus column! Now we can get on to the tests that are planned for this day!
Daisy BBs
First up are Daisy Premium Grade BBs. Ten averaged 413 f.p.s., but the spread was pretty large — from 386 to 435 f.p.s. That’s 49 f.p.s. The 386 was the only shot that was below 400 f.p.s., so it was an anomaly. At the average velocity this BB develops 1.93 foot-pounds at the muzzle.
Air Venturi Dust Devils
Next I tried Air Venturi Dust Devils. At 4.35 grains I expected them to be a little faster and they were. That average was 422 f.p.s. The spread went from 392 to 437 f.p.s., a range of 45 f.p.s. At the average speed Dust Devils developed 1.72 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.
Hornady Black Diamond
Next I tried 10 Hornady Black Diamond BBs. But the first string started at 366 f.p.s. and dropped to 258 f.p.s. by shot 7. I stopped because the bolt was barely blowing back. With three function shots fired before the test started, that was a total of 30 shots on the CO2 cartridge. I thought that sounded a little low, based on the Pyramyd AIR description that says there are 40 good shots, so I changed the CO2 cartridge.
On the new cartridge Black Diamonds averaged 404 f.p.s. for 10 shots. The spread went from a low of 360 to a high of 418 f.p.s. That’s a spread of 58 f.p.s. At the average velocity Black Diamonds develop 1.85 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.
Smart Shot
The final BB I tested was the Air Venturi Smart Shot lead BB from H&N. Ten of them averaged 333 f.p.s. with a 43 f.p.s. spread that went from 314 to 357 f.p.s. At the average velocity this lead BB developed 1.82 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.
Shot count
The first good CO2 cartridge was in doubt after the second string, but this second cartridge is solid. I didn’t even fire a test shot to make certain the cartridge was pierced. I went right to testing. So at this point with 21 shots on the cartridge (due to me forgetting to release the magazine follower one time after loading), I recorded the next string of Black Diamonds that had averaged 404 f.p.s. at the start of the fresh cartridge. Here they are.
Shot…………Vel.
22…………..387
23…………..405
24…………..389
25…………..DNR
26…………..DNR
27…………..389
28…………..309
29…………..373
30…………..367
31…………..352
32…………..339
33…………..321
34…………..305
35…………..282
36…………..237
By the 32nd shot I could tell things were slowing down rapidly. The discharge sound was way off and the bolt was not coming back as hard. By shot 36 I felt I had to stop or risk jamming a BB.
You can pick the stopping place but this cartridge gave 32 to 36 shots before it was exhausted. So I’m calling the shot count 35 per cartridge.
Feed
I was surprised to discover that the BB feeds forward and stops in the breech. I assumed they were just blown out of the top of the magazine and through the barrel.
Apparently the BB is fed into the breech before the rifle fires.
Trigger pull
The non-adjustable single stage trigger breaks at 3 lbs. 6 oz. The break point is pretty consistent. It will be easy to shoot with.
Summary
So far I like the realism, the fact that the sights adjust, the strong blowback and that the trigger is light and smooth. I do find the shot count to be on the low side, which is no doubt due to the powerful blowback.
As realistic as this little rifle is, it’s going to be on a lot of buyer’s lists. I sure hope it turns out to be accurate!
BB—-Last summer the airgun dealer told me that he would no longer come to my local gunshow (Middletown N.Y. ) I always bought my co2 cylinders from him, because he he sold them at a good price. So I dipped into my gun money and bought a lot of co2 cylinders from him. I now have over 300 Crosman co2 cylinders. Please test Crosmans cylinders in this carbine. I would like to know if they will work or leak in this gun. Thank you, Ed P.S. This gunshow never had more than 2 airgun dealers, and now they have none.
You can get good deals on Crosman CO2 cartridges on Amazon.com, I’ve seen them sell low enough that they averaged out to 42 cents a piece. Also, Wal-Mart usually has them for a good price.
Ed,
I tried to put a Crosman cartridge into this gun but it didn’t fit. I should have mentioned that.
B.B.
B.B.,
Ouch. For me that hurts, although not so much that I wouldn’t get one of these carbines if they are accurate.
I bought 500 Crosman CO2 cartridges from Pyramyd AIR a few years ago. With a ten percent off coupon they came to less than 40 cents a piece! I have sorted about 100 of them for length and diameter with a micrometer, but with a non-Crosman sticking in the carbine you are testing, I wouldn’t try even a skinny Crosman. I do have some Gamos and Daisys I could try.
500 Powerlets: /product/crosman-12-gram-co2-500-copperhead-powerlet-cartridges?a=76
Michael
Not accepting Crosman co2 is a big problem. I use them 99 percent of the time40 for $18 . Question is why not? They work in pretty much everything else I shoot. The stuck , leaking mag would have most people return it. Not off to a great start
That’s interesting. I have one from the same batch as yours BB and mine accepts Crosman CO2 without issue.
I stopped going to the Middletown NY gun show years ago. used to be able to walk around with a rifle slung for sale. there were many undercover guys would ask you to go in the parking lot so they can buy the rifle then nail you with some federal charge.
BB
It’s not so much I wanted it to fire full-auto as the challenge to make it do so.
I wanted to have the option and It was easier then I expected. In my first attempt I just dropped a washer in the action to see what would happen and it worked but it was not a reliable set up and it locked up the trigger after firing a complete mag.
After examining the way everything worked I came up with another option. Before I go any further I nee to state that my M1 Carbine is the wood stock Airsoft version and I’m assuming the trigger works the same with the BB version as they appear to be identical aside from the caliber. It may also void any warrantee ? However no parts were actually modified.
I will send two pictures. One of the trigger / sear assembly and another of the receiver assembly for reference.
The trigger has a spring loaded sear with an oval cut out that allows it to move. There is a brass bushing tube that surrounds the assembly pivot pin and the sear slides on that. I simply stuffed a small piece of hard Teflon like plastic into that oval slot to stop any sliding movement and prevent the sear from re-engaging the hammer while the trigger is being pulled.
There are trigger and sear springs, loose parts and screws that will have to be kept track of and dealt with but nothing requiring specialty tools. I’m not getting to deep into the procedure here. You should have some experience
Interesting point. There is a brass roller on the hammer that rides on the lower surface of the bolt to reduce friction and wear and a rubber bumper on the back as well as one for the bolt.
The lower receiver assy. The brass tube is tight in the trigger. but came out easier in one direction. The upper part contains the hammer and firing pin with a loose spring and moving part. OK, lost the pic, another try ..
B.B.,
I have not had any Co2 guns other than the 92FS w/laser and a 2240. The 92 piercing lever bent eventually. Maybe I tightened the adjustable lever too much, but I had well over 1000 shots through it with no issue. It seems like simple fatigue. When the allan screw piercing came out, I did a version of that and while it worked, not as perfect as I would like. The 2240,…. which I bought to modify, had issues with getting the first empty cartridge out. I ended up pounding the gun, (muzzle first) on the carpet and eventually it came loose. (15+ minutes) I never put another one it.
To me, for me,…. this is unforgiveable that any maker would make the tube ID so tight that it has issues with any cartridge. This has pretty well soured me on Co2 guns, albeit with very limited exposure. Today’s gun reinforces that feeling. I know they have been around for many years, so I am just the odd duck out I guess.
Nice job on the JB Weld rescue! Nice to know that it works that well. Will the average consumer be as savvy? I hope it does shoot well and makes many people happy.
Good Day to you and to all,………. Chris
Chris
Did the Co2 cartridge slide in easy? If so I’ll bet it had the same problem. The seal on the cartridge may have been too wide and got stuck in the area of the puncture pin as it was pushed down. I doubt the cartridge expanded from being over tightened, but who knows without an accurate measurement before and after use.
Bob M
Chris,
I would hate to see someone give up on CO2 because of bad design and manufacture of a CO2 capsule by the same people who design and manufacture the CO2 pistol it is going in.
Chris,
I have a lot (too much, probably) of experience with CO2 air guns, and you simply had a double-dose of bad luck. I always apply a BIG drop of Pellgunoil directly onto the seal before installing the CO2 cart. If the cart seems unusually tight, I’ll pull it out and slather a bit of silicone oil on its sides and install it again.
My advice is to get an inexpensive CO2 air gun like the Umarex Broadax (which ought to be named the instant smile) and, ahem, give it a shot. CO2 air guns are the most fun to shoot of them all, in my opinion.
Michael
Michael
I’ll second the Broadax. Have one. Nice gun till the seal crapped out.
Got a Colt Python that uses the same clips as the Broadax. Basically the same gun with a different body.
I started using some lithium grease on the head of the cartridges when I got the Colt Python after the Broadax seal failed. Haven’t had any problem with the Colt yet.
But yep both not bad pistols for the price. Actually pretty accurate. I have to say though I like the Colt Python better because of the adjustable rear sight. Makes it real easy to dial in to your personal type of holding and sighting the gun. But they are pretty well throw away guns if they break unless you can find parts for repair.
Gunfun1,
Thanks for the lithium grease advice. That is one I never thought of. That should ease the tip of the CO2 cart as it is installed and maybe prevent abrasions on anything inside, too.
Michael
Michael
And even something to do with the cartridge temperature. It helps some way.
That’s the best I can say. I’m not a scientist. So can’t explain it. But I know when I find something that works I keep trying it. How else can I say it. 🙂
Chris,
I’m with you!
Though I do vent Co2 (and a bit of methane) I have never been a Co2 gun admirer.
I keep on looking at the 2240 and re-reading Hiveseeker’s guest blogs but always shy-off making a buy.
I understand and expect to see slight variances in a product but now reading that Co2 cartridges don’t conform to a (mechanical) standard I can’t see myself ever buying anything that is Co2 powered. IMHO, the format is too limited in shot count, temperature sensitive, costly and inconvenient (something else to run out of).
Now that PCPs and HPA sources are more common I would hope to see more HPA powered pistols and replicas available in the market.
Cheers,
Hank
Hank,
I never vent methane. I have massive releases! BRRRRRAAAAAAAAPPPPPPP!!!!!!
LOL!
Hank and RR,
The methane might cause detonations in an airgun, be careful! ;^)
On the other hand, it would be inexpensive if someone devised a way to fill CO2 reservoirs at dairy farms. We have a lot of those around here as well as just over the state line up in Wisconsin.
Michael
Hank,
They are what they are and fine for that. Getting a cart. stuck because of lack of tolerances is unforgivable,…. from any maker. Fire the gun to dislodge. Special lube at cap area. JB Weld and magnets. Yes,…. I am sure all of that is the manual,… somewhere,….. not. 😉
In fact, a split tube, that when unscrewed,… exposes 1″ of the cartridge may do it. Something to grab on to or get pliers on. No different than what is done now,….. just not a piercing cap in the pure sense.
Chris
Chris USA,
I have always found the 22XX to be FUN plinking airguns. With minimal care you can just grab a target (of some sort) a tin of pellets, Pellgun Oil and a few CO2 Cartridge/Capsule and PLINK! Just don’t expect much more than plinking fun.
On the 22XX family of CO2 guns the piercing pin can sometimes be overtightened driving it into the capsule and gets stuck. A Field Expedient is to simple pull the trigger and “shoot” (the hammer impulse) is sufficient to dislodge all but the most recalcitrant capsule. Do be careful to point the open tube in a safe direction (down) as the remaining gas may have sufficient energy to launch the kicked loose capsule.
shootski
Shootski
The 2240 and 2300’s and such are nice shooting Co2 pistols and can be heavily modified if you do some internet searching.
I built many based off the 2240’s and no regrets yet.
Gunfun1.
I’m with you on the more fun 22XX!
I have a 2300SLE and even have a custom target grip for it, adjustable palm shelf and all…shoots pretty good too! The others have some sweet custom breeches, roller triggers, Seers, hammers, adjusters and lots of BLING going.
I even have the DAQ breech & barreled 2550 with his CO2 Bulk fill tube extender. That one shoots some pretty heavy .25 pellets very well; sad the Diana pellets that Dennis specifically rifled the barrels for are GONE!
The Crosman Custom Shop has done some of the kids well but the cottage industry built on the 22XX is as vast as you say :^)
shootski
Shootski
Yep with 2240’s and such. And for the multi-pump people the 1322 and 1377’s have mods galore available too.
Definitely a modular design. I like that.
Shootski,
I’ve done that before with the 2260. I didn’t know how or why, but I know cocking and pulling the trigger kicked out the cart.
Doc
Doc Holiday,
Yea! I don’t know/remember how I learned to do that either????!!!!!
shootski
Chris,
I have a Crosman 2260 that also has C02 carts stick from time to time. I’ve only used Crosman C02 Carts. in it. You’d think, since it’s the same brand, they’d make them where they wouldn’t “stick”.
Doc
Chris USA,
I have noticed that some of the Crosman Carts get a rough surface feel if they are exposed to humidity and hand salts and then sit around for a time. A quick wipe with a plastic scrubber takes the surface corrosion off them. Seldom have an issue with them sticking.
shootski
Shootski
I have shot alot of Co2 guns and have used Crosman cartridges. Never had any stick either.
And never had that rough surface your talking about either.
Maybe the sticking cartridges is about what the room or outside temperature is. Not sure just throwing that out there.
The CO2 comparison
You can see the difference in these two cartridges. On the left is the Crosman and on the right is a Swiss Arms. Two Crossman’s failed to seal and work and the Swiss arms had no problems. I suspect the metal seal design not the rifle seal.
Full-auto is very dramatic but not too fast as BB found out with the bolt movement but shooting Airsoft BBs was not very accurate or constant for distance. Just a lot of fun. I will probably leave the BB version, when I get one, semi-auto just to preserve it longer.
Bob M
The only problem I ever had with a CO2 gun came about as a result of using cartridges much like the one on the left – that was only with one gun though, the two 12g cartridge version of the Umarex Lever action. In that gun the cartridge seals by the neck sliding into an O-ring so a cartridge with a “cap” on it can tear the O-rings up. Since replacing the rings I’ve only used smooth-necked cartridges and have had no further problems.
B.B.: “I think the cartridge knew that I knew how to remove it and just gave up. Inanimate objects will do that when they know they’re beaten!” That sounds like a better strategy than the one I have learned over the years. I’ve found that if a fastener or part is stuck fast, you merely need to get everything aligned so that your hands will strike something hot or sharp if it suddenly lets go. Works like magic!
Nowhere,
That’s brilliant! I have done that, but never made the connection. Another tip for m,y toolkit! 😉
B.B.
Just a thought
The rapidly escaping CO2 exits through the two holes in the screw on cap when it fails to seal. I wonder if it simple iced over and froze in place. Did it bust loose and easily slide the rest of the way out or did it resist all the way out ?
It just may have warmed up and melted the ice too ?
Bob,
That might have happened, but the cartridges keep sticking. I now use a rare earth magnet to remove them and they come out easily. Just not a lot of extra room in there, I guess.
B.B.
BB
Yes the cartridge space is narrow and I imagine there are slight differences in each companies design.
I have a real hard time getting those magnets off my fridge.
Bob, My Crosman Powerlets look nothing like the one on the left in your picture. There is a cap, but it is smoothed so that there is no rough edge. I always put a dollop of Pellgunoil directly on the seal in the air gun, so everything is quite lubricated to make seal issues less likely.
Michael
Michael
I am suggesting that the cap circumference is too big to easily fit in the small space where the neck drops into the area with the puncture pin and seal. Tightening it down only wedges it into the space and it never bottoms out to contact the seal after the pin has started to puncture it. The result is all the CO2 dumps out into the magazine space and escapes into the air and the cartridge gets stuck in there.
The hole in the center of the magazine seal retainer that screws down and retains the seal in place is just not big enough to permit any wide neck cartridges to slide through completely and seal. Any wide necked ones that do happen to get wedged in by really tightening down the retaining screw cap and manage to reach the seal are hard to get out.
I believe you need to either remove the seal retainer and drill out the center a tad or only use a brand of narrow necked CO2 cartridges that will fit.
I don’t believe there is any ‘o’ ring seal in there. Just a disk that gets compressed to seal.
Bob,
I agree that sometimes the tip is too wide to get in there. At times I have tightened enough that I can feel the tip force its way to the disk. Other air guns, nope. No go. That’s what I have the other brands for.
I suppose one could remove a tiny bit of metal on the tip with a lathe and metal file, being careful not to heat the Powerlet too much or accidentally pierce the tip. But they are pretty sturdy. On a whim I tried to cut the fat end off of an empty (a craft project that didn’t work out), and it was more trouble than it was worth, so I stopped partway through.
Michael
Bob
To me it looks like the cartridge on the right has a smaller head and neck. So that probably helps.
I would like to see both cartridges in a side by side full picture. To me it looks like the body diameter might be smaller with the one on the right too.
How does the smaller cartridge on the right work in Crosman guns?
GF1
Here is the same pic uncropped. I measured and the Swiss Arms on the right is shaped differently in the neck area for sure and that tip is thinner as well as the entire cartridge. Not by much at all but it just may be enough to work.
I usually only use Crosman cartridges because they are readily available and have worked with everything I have. In hind sight some have been harder than others to install, leaking quite a bit, but never resulted in a jammed cartridge.
I was made aware of the problem from reading a review on the Airsoft version and the writer was really peeved about it but others were just fine. I was ready for it and sure enough it failed to seal for me with this rifle. Probably like discussed before, varied manufacturing tolerances on both sides.
Just like some pellets and BBs work better than others this rifle may prefer thinner necked CO2 cartridges… some do some don’t . But that Swiss Arms cartridge went in without so much s a hiss.
This mag is a solid heavy chunk of metal with a close tolerance cartridge cavity unlike a lot of others and it may have something to do with it.
For all I know the bottom of the cavity may be a little tapered. If you install a Crosman cartridge backwards it jams up tight. Not so with the other one.
I’ll just get some slim cartridges for these rifles. Problem solved !
It sure wont stop me from ordering the wood stock model when it comes out. By the way … the manufacture has made a folding metal stocked M2 version but I have never seen it for sale in the U.S.
There are pictures of it in the instructions.
Bob M. Perhaps it was designed around a thin cartridge ?
( clicked to edit and lost the picture ) try again !
Bob
It sounds like the Swiss Arms are a little smaller.
And like I mentioned above to Shootski I have never had a Co2 cartridge stick. I wonder if the room and outside temperature have something to do with it also. Maybe like what climate you live in.
B.B.
Sent an email last Friday (for a possible gust blog subject) with two attachments – did it arrive or end up in the junk-mail folder? Was wondering if the subject was suitable.
Thanks
Hank
Hank,
I received that but haven’t had time to read it yet.
B.B.
OK, Thanks for the reply B.B.!
Cmz128——My problem is that I want to use the 300@ Crosman cartridges in the M1. I do not want a gun that does not use them because they are the most common brand of cartridge in my area. ——Ed
B.B.,
Multiple questions all interrelated:
Are you using more than one magazine during the testing?
The 15 round magazines will be available to purchase as spares for USD $35-40.00?
Since they contain the 15 pellets, valve and barrel loading system the only thing the rifle actually consists of is; the stock, blowback system and trigger group; how different will each magazine/rifle combination perform?
shootski
shootski,
The gun comes with just one mag, so that’s all I am using/testing.
B.B.
At least in my findings thus far, using two different mags doesn’t seem to yield any drastically different results. Bear in mind, this magazines only contains the valve (like most CO2 pistols for example) while the hammer is contained in the rifle. The only time I have seen drastic changes in velocities from mag to mag are on guns where the hammer is on the magazine (like the Hellboy).
Tyler@PA
Thanks for dropping in.
I wonder if this solid metal mag with its close tolerance design and mass actually retains a lot of the cold developed from rapid shooting and lowers the pressure some as you continue shooting? I know full-auto really make the mag cold but I have not checked the FPS yet to verify.
Need a warm up delay period between to see if it gets faster again with the same cartridge.
Bob M
Bob,
If I shoot the first mag taking one shot every 1-2 seconds, by the time I reload and fire the first shot of the second mag, the CO2 has warmed enough to produce a higher first shot velocity on that second mag than my last shot of the first mag. That’s at least what my experience has been so far with the gun.
Tyler
Tyler@PA
So it does cool off enough to effect the velocity of each shot with rapid fire and change some with varied times between shots. I thought I noticed a drop off in performance firing full-auto but as we all know that’s to be expected with CO2. Perhaps it’s a little bit more pronounced with this solid mag slowing down the warm up time. Still as long as I am aware of it I can easily live with it. I really like this Carbine and I expect the BB version even more. Thanks for the info.
Bob M
B.B.,
I grew up on Westerns and WWII movies; so I always thought the little carbine was right in line with “God, Mom, and apple pie.” Apparently, I’m not the only one who thinks so: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/9/12/a-look-back-at-the-m1-carbine/
I like this BB version, and hope that it proves to have the accuracy for a nice back-yard-killer-of-evil-tin-cans. =>
I was wondering about what you said about the design being maxed out for its time, and “Wearout happens first to the replaceable parts.” Would those same issues be concerns if you bought a modern one?
Like this: https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/firearms/auto-ordnance-aom130.asp
or this: https://www.inland-mfg.com/Inland-Carbines/M1-1945.html
Or do you think the modern metallurgy with which they’re made would make those issues less of a concern?
I really have more use for this CO2 version, and no use for the firearm version…yet I want one anyway. =)~
Thanks for another great report,
take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
The modern ones do not hold up as well as the government ones. Don’t buy a new one. For the same money you can get a very nice original gun.
Modern metallurgy COULD make a better gun, but they typically don’t.
B.B.
“Modern metallurgy COULD make a better gun, but they typically don’t.”
Thanks for that intel, B.B.! =>
Hi BB
Re: OOPS and Problem Number 2
Most of the time when a co2 cartridge gets stuck like that the problem is caused by the uncontrolled escaping gas which causes the temperature in the neck area of the cartridge to drop to around -78°C or -109°F. The piercing pin, being a very hard, high quality metal needed to stand up to the rigours of constant piercing and the cartridge being just cheap steal have a very different co-efficient of expansion. The cheap steel of the cartridge shrink fits itself to the piercing pin and there will be no release until things warm up. If there is a metal burr or chip between the pin and the cartridge then you may need to mechanically separate them when they warm up.
In your situation BB, after about 4 hours, everything warmed back to normal and separated easily.
Normal shooting of co2 guns never get cold enough to seize things up like that although some action pistols with heavy blow back can cause the co2 cartridge to seize for a short period of time. The STI Duty One is one of my guns that suffers from this problem but only takes a few minutes with the co2 cover removed to allow the cartridge to warm up enough to be shaken free.
Cheers
B.B.
I didn’t see if you, Tyler Patner, or anyone else tried Umarex CO2. Have you tried the Umarex cartridges?
Charles,
I tried Umarex cartridges and they didn’t fit. In that case it was just the neck that didn’t fit.
B.B.
So let me make sure I understand which CO2 fits:
Crosman – No
Umarex – No
Swiss Arms – Yes or maybe?
Who else?
Right now all I have are Crosman, Umarex, and Swiss Arms CO2 and all three of them fit in every CO2 gun I have.
If this Springfield Armory M1 won’t accept all of these CO2, that’s a major buzzkill, and I may just not buy one!
Air Venturi / Springfield Armory need to fix this problem immediately!
Cstoehr
The Swiss Arms worked perfectly. Read my new entry below in the blog
Funny timing, for this post. Yesterday, finally decided to give the “shadetree gunsmith” repair shot to a 52-year-old Crosman 38T .22 passed on by a cousin decades ago. It started leaking about 5 decades ago, and put it away at the time, intending to get it fixed. Never happened.
Having read B.B.’s recommendations for curing leaky seals, applied some Barr’s AT leak-fixer to the CO2 seal; also – this was probably overkill and/or useless – fitted a tiny o-ring to the Crosman cartridge, which went nice and snug around its neck. Crossed fingers, inserted cartridge, turned locking screw slowly, worn screwdriver slot not helping, but finally got the cartridge to seal, though some gas did escape. Then fired a “dry” test shot, and was happy to hear the solid report.
Loaded up with some vintage pellets which came with the gun, set up a half-assed target in the backyard, and opened fire from about 45 feet away. I was happy with the 2 pellets which hit with a good, solid “thwack.” The 3rd went off somewhere Not so much with the 4th…never moved, because at that point all the remaining gas discharged. Considering no success was expected, it was not a bad show for a defective revolver in need of some TLC, so off it will go to a professional who knows what to do and how to do it. It is a fun plinker, with enough power to make it a good “coup de grace” tool, as needed. It was fun bringing it back to life, if only briefly!
The CO2 M1 is quite nice, but given historical/collecting interests going back to foolish teenagehood, will hold out for the Umarex MP-40. Back then, interestingly, there was an M1 manufacturer/parts suppliers not far from home. Having been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to fire the .30 M1, FM believes it is a respectable weapon, even today.
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_bullseye.html
BB
An ‘Old fogey’ ? …. “Old fogey” ? … Does that mean I’m going to be one in less than 48 hours !! ? Or am I one now? Somebody forgot to tell me, if I am.
Always considered myself a very mature young stud. Yeah … that’s it. … that sounds much better.
Perhaps you meant to say “I had experience full-auto shooting in the past and reached my point of satiety.”
I think you have to be in your ninety’s to reach that classification in life these days. 😉
We will let you know when you really reach it but by then you probably won’t remember anyway. Where was I now?
Bob M
B.B.,
It’s Here! Swarm Gen 2 at PA!!! Can’t wait for the review, Hint Hint.
/product/gamo-swarm-fusion-10x-gen2-multi-shot-air-rifle?m=4792#9551
Doc
Doc Holiday
Now that is looking real good. What more can you ask for in a magnum? I know, I know good accuracy. The .177 pellet may make more sound than the rifle at supersonic speed.
Bob M
Bob,
I myself would be the .22 cal. If one was to get the .177, just shoot heavy pellets. These velocities are usually done with super light weight pellets. All that said, I am hoping Gamo will come out with a little “lower” powered version.
Doc
Well well now.
Look what I found.
The one on the left says ‘Crosman’ in it …. The one on the right says ‘Copperhead’ o.n it
The Copperhead was a used one I found and it slid right down into the M1 Carbine and bottomed out on the seal with absolutely no resistance.
Bob M
Thanks to everyone who commented on my comment about Co2 and cartridges getting stuck. Shootski’s idea of firing it to dislodge was most interesting and also the addition of lube to the cart. cap area by others.
Thanks all,……… Chris
Cstoehr——–ditto—-and the sight is not adjustable for elevation.——Ed
Shootski—–I have a Gletcher mosin nagant m 1944 and 3 magazines. They are similar to the carbine magazines—-they contain the co2 cylinder, the valve and the bb,s. They have different velocities, the 2 spares are faster than the one that came with the 44. This is a good reason for an adjustable (for elevation) rear sight. If you are shooting at tin cans, at 5-20 feet, a fixed sight might be ok. If you are shooting at bullseye targets, at longer ranges, you will need to adjust the rear sight for elevation. ——-Ed
Ed
Agree about having a adjustable rear sight.
Everybody holds and shoots a gun a little different. A adjustable rear sight helps.