Air Venturi TR5 Multi-Shot Target Air Rifle: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

TR5
Air Venturi TR5 repeating pellet rifle.

Part 1
Part 2

This report covers:

  • A different day
  • The test
  • Get started
  • Artillery hold — no!
  • Heavy pellets?
  • Rear sight adjustment
  • The mess
  • Wassup?
  • RWS Meisterkugeln
  • JSB Exact Heavy
  • H&N Baracuda Match
  • What caused this?
  • Seen it before?
  • Discussion
  • Summary

A different day

Today’s blog will be different. Today you get to look behind the curtain and watch the wizard ply his tricks to try to fool Dorothy and her retinue. Today is accuracy day for the Air Venturi TR5 Multi-Shot Target Air Rifle, but as you will soon learn, it will be anything but!

The test

I shot from 10 meters off a sandbag rest. I used both the artillery hold and rested the rifle directly on the bag, to see which was better. I’ll describe it as we go.

I shot 5-shot groups because I was looking for one or more pellets that are the best. We’ll soon see how that turned out!

Get started

I started with the rifle held in the artillery hold. Once I got it hitting on the target paper I started testing with pellet after pellet. I initially thought lighter pellets would be best. Nope! They grouped in 2-3 inches every time.

What about heavier pellets? Nope again. They were slightly better but still not producing groups smaller than 1.75-inches. I tried domes and wadcutters. I kept going back to my pellet cabinet for something different. In the end there were 14 different types of pellets on the shooting bench!

TR5 pellets
Rather than list them all, these are the 14 different pellets I tried in the TR5. I couldn’t get any of them to shoot.

Artillery hold — no!

After several groups with the artillery hold I started resting the rifle directly on the sandbag and things got better — not a lot better, but a little better. I decided the artillery hold wasn’t for the TR-5 — at least not yet.

Heavy pellets?

The first acceptable group I got was with H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.50mm heads. It’s acceptable if you can accept 5 pellets going into 1.144-inches at 10 meters. And, they were centered 3 inches to the left and 1.2-inches below the aim point. Let’s talk about that.

Rear sight adjustment

The rear sight on the TR5 is a notch that moves inside a larger frame that stands still. It’s a sliding notch. It took me about 25 shots to figure that out. Of course I could have read the manual, but I’m a shooter — I don’t need no stinking manual! Once I figured it out I got the rifle sighted in — sort of. My point is — the TR5 sights do adjust as far as you need them to.

The mess

Instead of going group by embarrassing group with you, let me show you the product of my first hour of shooting. I had pellets wandering all over the target paper, to the point that I couldn’t separate them, because pellets shot at one target would land inside a group made by pellets shot at a different target. It was like watching a chase scene from the Keystone Cops. All it needed was a tinkly piano. If this had happened to anyone but me, it would have been funny.

TR5 mess 1
The first “mess”, with all the shots that hit the target paper. I put a box around that “best” group of Baracuda Match pellets. The aim point for them was the top center bull.

TR5 mess 2
Mess number two is fewer shots, because by this time I am wising up. Can’t pull the wool over BB’s eyes! At least not for two consecutive hours!

Wassup?

I bet you want to know what’s happening. So do I. But I promised to show you the best groups of the test, so except for that first group of Baracudas, here we go!

RWS Meisterkugeln

Resting the TR5 directly on the sandbag I put 5 RWS Meisterkugeln pellets in a tight 1.507-inches at 10 meters. The group size is very good, but the distance to the target should be 10 times greater! Ha!

TR5 Meister group
Five RWS Meisterkugeln went into 1.507-inches at 10 meters.

JSB Exact Heavy

The next group I will show was made by 5 JSB Exact Heavy domes. They went into a 2.243-inch “group” at 10 meters. I’m showing you this stuff because this is what was happening to me all morning long! Four of these pellets are in 0.963-inches and one is way off to the right. This is a clue as to what is happening today, if you have some experience shooting with open sights, but I’m not there yet.

TR5 JSB Heavy group
Five JSB Exact Heavy pellets are in 2.243-inches at 10 meters, with 4 in 0.963-inches.

H&N Baracuda Match

The last pellet I’ll show you Is the same H&N Baracuda Match with 4.50mm head that gave that first group I showed inside the box. This time 5 went into 1.432-inches at 10 meters. That’s so much larger than the first group that I knew I was finished shooting. And I also thought I might know what was happening.

TR5 Baracuda Match group
Five H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.50mm heads went into 1.432-inches at 10 meters.

What caused this?

What could cause today’s results? Well, first I would look at both sights. Are they secure or are they subject to move? The front sight is rock-solid with no chance of moving. The rear sight does rock from side to side, but it’s under spring pressure that holds it in place. I don’t think it’s the problem, though I will keep a watch on it.

Next, the barrel could be loose. If it were loose it could shift from shot to shot, causing what we see today. Only the barrel isn’t loose. Again, it’s rock solid.

If there was an obstruction in front of the muzzle it could touch the pellet on its way out and cause what we see here. But there is nothing like that.

The barrel could be dirty. Because the TR5 is a repeater with a tight breech and a mechanism in the way there is no easy way to just look down the barrel, but I will clean it before the next test, just in case.

Or I could be a lousy shot. Only I’m not. I’m no world champion, but I do shoot a lot better than what you see here.

The thing that I think is causing the inaccuracy seen today is one of the rarest things in the shooting world. We have seen it in other forms, but never like we see with this TR5.

I think the rear sight notch is too large! When I sight the rifle I can’t align the front sight with either the top of the rear notch nor can I accurately estimate the distance between the sides of the front site blade, to center it in the rear notch.

I will know when I mount a dot sight on the TR5 and test it again at 10 meters. Because if the rear sight isn’t it and if a clean barrel doesn’t make it better, this rifle is just not accurate.

Seen it before?

I said we have seen this sight thing before in other forms. We see it every time I shoot targets with a rifle that has a tapered post front sight and a V notch in the back. They make it next to impossible to level the sights. But a square post in a square notch that is too big like we see on the TR5 is very rare.

Discussion

I still like the trigger on the TR5. Though its single stage it’s quite crisp. The firing behavior, though, is a separate thing. Today I shot the rifle a lot and felt, by the end of the session, that the TR5 I’m testing is a little too harsh. It doesn’t vibrate, but the initial jolt doesn’t need to be as heavy as it is. I think some Tune in a Tube might do wonders here.

I certainly do not need more power! The TR5 has all the power I need to shoot at targets and for plinking. It just needs to be smoother and have better sights (if it’s accurate, which I still have to learn).

Summary

In case you wonder whether I ever report when things don’t work right — there you go! I try to test things the way users will try to use them, though I’m not going to overlook doing something that makes the item perform at its best. However, when I test them, you get to see the results.

Okay, GunFun1, I’m now turning the floor over to you. Speak freely.

124 thoughts on “Air Venturi TR5 Multi-Shot Target Air Rifle: Part 3


  1. I have groups like yours after a bunch of work. At this point I can get 2-3 holes touching at 20yds, then there will be 2-3 that make the group 2″.

    I have a bugbuster on it that is known good. I put it on my R7 to check.

    The biggest plan for me it to cut the super long barrel down. I don’t know how much if anything it will help.

    I am hitting small pinecones at will at 15- 18 yds every time offhand. So it’s plinking okay. I wish the magazine could do single shot easily to take that out of the mix. I’ve been using a 1/4″ headphone plug to seat mine.


    • Edw,

      That sounds like a real challenge. It is so frustrating to get 2 or three that group and then have the group blow up. This gun is going to be interesting following what is tried and what effect it has on accuracy.

      Don


      • Yeah. Basically I polished the internals, lubed and cleaned the barrel. Kroil and JB paste till it was shiny. It was so dirty a jag wouldn’t nfit down there to start.

        There are several screws holding the barrel in. But it seems way to long.


        • Edw
          There is one main screw that holds the barrel in on the bottom of the breech.

          The others on top from the sight and front stock on top don’t really hold the barrel. They have spots cut in the barrel and the screws don’t really touch from what I can tell.

          But that’s why I took the front part of the stock off of mine too. I thought the barrel might be contacting the stock after it leaves the breech.

          Now with my 1377 barrel it is a floating barrel. Nothing for the barrel to vibrate on. I thought maybe that was the accuracy problem. But I think there’s more to it. Maybe shot cycle.

          What I thought about doing is go the opposite way from what I just did with preloading the spring more with that 3/8″ spacer. The TR5 spring from the factory has very little preload on it. Maybe a 1/4″.

          I have tuned guns with zero preload and even like a 1/8″ freeplay in the spring. I was thinking about cutting my spring in mine but I would like to have a replacement spring before I did that though. Right now all my extra springs are too big of diameter.


          • Here’s what I took off of the spring. I have SS .005 shims at both sides of the spring and a thin brass shim on the fresh cut spring side.

            I’m getting 2″ regularly now, at 20yds. But it’s still not great. It will be 3 groups with 5 shots. Two groups where pellets touch and another flier. No rhyme or reason to it though.

            Machinest at work is going to part and face the barrel this week. All I’ve got to do is set up his wifi :). It’s getting cut an inch from the frame, and the shorty bit is getting turned down for a super short option. We’ll see if either makes a difference.



  2. B.B.,

    Well, that was a big disappointment wasn’t it. Hope you find the cause of this terrible accuracy. Like you say, if after you clean the barrel and mount a dot sight, if the groups don’t improve, this airgun is a dud. A gun that’s not accurate is only useful as a club.


  3. I am sad and from the moment they gave a glimpse of this gun i was thinking we had the IZH 60/61 back or even better, but why not and why this? I know the Russian guns were not perfect though the trigger was… I just know i expected at least its equal. I could rail about my obvious disappointment and conjecture about how it made it into production. I am at a loss as how it can be so bad.

    Some things are so bad they make me never trust the brand or brands associated with them because the only way a product this poor makes it to consumers is if the manufacturer just doesn’t care.

    I hope you find a fix that does not involve rebuilding the gun.


    • Gunfun and I have been tweaking ours pretty significantly. There hasn’t been a simple fix so far, and still no love. But all it not lost. Gen2 will likely be better if it makes it. Right now I can hit small pinecones at will from 10-60 feet. That’s not bad, just not great.


  4. B.B.,

    Interesting. I am not an open sight shooter, but your description does make it sound as if left to right alignment would be tuff. It will interesting to see what the dot sight does to improve things.

    The P.A. reviews are few with a surprising amount of sub-comments. No one is claiming laser accuracy. Looking forwards to the next installment.

    Good Day to you and to all,…….. Chris


  5. BB
    I pretty well had the same exsperiance as you.
    Tryed a bunch of different brand pellets and shapes.
    Tryed deep seating and not deep seating.
    Tryed open sights and a scope. (better luck with the scope I will say that)

    And yes the gun does seem like it’s a more powerful gun by it’s shot cycle. It definitely has a abrupt thump to it.

    We’ll here’s what I did. First shimmed the spring for more preload. (3/8″ spacer)
    Groups got a little better at 10 yards. So tryed for first time out to 18 yards. Which is what I usually plink at.
    Groups at 18 yards were a bit smaller than my 10 yard groups with out shimming the spring. And what is funny is my shot cycle stayed the same as it was without the spring shim.

    So me and Edw was sharing some info on Part1. We both thought the factory barrel was too long and slowing the gun down. He was going to cut his barrel. I decided to try a 1377 barrel that I know was accurate out at 25 or so yards. It was very easy to put the 1377 barrel in the TR5. I wrapped the barrel one time with a shim I cut from a plastic 2 litre soda bottle. It fit tight and no air leaking at the breech when I did the tissue test. And the TR5 has one actual set screw on the bottom of the breech that secures the barrel.

    So what happened then. Yes I tryed all the pellets again with the 1377 barrel. And still one pellet won out on both barrels. And there is a second pellet though on the 1377 barrel that is shooting the same as the number one pellet. Yep here you go. The best pellet is the Daisy wadcutters. The pellet that is right with it with the 1377 barrel is the JSB 7 grn exacts. Then it has a third pellet now also which is the JSB 10.34’s.

    I can now hold about a 1-1/4 at 18 yards and around 2 inches at 25 yards. So I’m kind of thinking the barrel is the TR5’s accuracy problem. Well so far anyway. Sort of.
    I want to try a 12″ AirForce barrel next that I’ll have to do a little machine work to.

    But the big thing is the TR5 with the 1377 barrel does not group as good as the barrel did on the 1377 I took it off of. So there’s still something with the TR5 that is holding accuracy back. I’m leaning towards shot cycle.

    That’s all I got for now.


    • Oh and forgot.

      The wadcutters seem to be a little more accurate when I don’t deep seat them. The round nose was pretty much the same deep seated or not. But if I pushed the round nose back a little after deep seating they would try to fall out of the clips. So I just got in a habit of pointing the gun down when I load a clip.



      • BB
        I know what you mean about still to early. I had my TR5 longer than you but still feel there’s something I’m missing about it.

        And no problem on the report.


  6. I find it kind of strange that no one seems to have mentioned this, unless I just missed it, but what about the feed mechanism. How well does everything line up when you operate this thing? Are the pellets being damaged or loaded straight?

    As some have mentioned, including myself to a degree, the IZH 60 / 61 air rifles had a cult following. I never heard of them being great shooters, but they were neat.

    Now along comes a Chinese copy of an air rifle that did not have a stellar reputation…

    I would like to get my hands on a nice IZH 60 to play with a bit. 😉


    • RR
      Me and Michael talked about that in the comments on Part 2.

      I found if I close the cocking arm fast on my gun I believe I can feel the pellet catching. Especially the wadcutters. But if I close the cocking arm slow and gentle it loads very smooth.

      And while we are talking that. At first I thought one of the clips that came with my TR5 was producing better groups than the other clip.

      But the more I shot when it was stock and throughout the mods I was making I found it was just coincidence.

      And I hope Michael has some info today. He was having clip feeding problems and I posted some pictures on Part 2 of how the clip was positioned in the TR5 when it was loaded. He was having issues with that and found deep seating helped out. He was suppose to let me know if not deep seated pellets still loaded the clip ok in his gun.

      But I did notice when I was deep seating that some pellets were cocked a little. And even if I pushed them back to make sure they was flush. I really noticed it on the wadcutter pellets. So that’s when I started just dropping the pellets and pointed the gun down when loading the clips. I did get better groups on some pellets by not deep seating.

      This gun has been a interesting one to get to try to group. And I put as much time in with it stock and throughout the mods. But it’s been fun. 🙂


    • Mine feeds very smoothly. I’ve tried to go as slow as possible and it’s hard to feel when the probe hits the pellet. I was thinking about shooting a bit into a water barrel to check out the skirts.


  7. Gunfun1,

    I have been kept out of my backyard and basement range both by the constant rain the last few days. Our basement is flooded as I write this. Therefore, I have been kept from trying out my TR5 without seating pellets — to see if the clip is feeding properly now since I blew out the breech with my shop vac.

    My hope is that my TR5 is a rare accurate one, Hah. I also hope that deep-seating pellets doesn’t make it significantly less accurate, because mine behaves nicely action-wise if I deep-seat.

    GF1, with a 1377 barrel, your TR5 must look exceptionally cool. I like the looks of all snubbies.

    Michael


    • Michael
      Bummer about your basement. And you know I’ll be waiting for all the results from your gun.

      And I posted some pictures of mine in Part1 after the Crosman barrel swap and fore stock removal.

      But here’s another picture of it since you mentioned it today. This is without the little muzzle break sleeve I put on the muzzle end of the gun. And the factory barrel is above it so you can see how much shorter the 1377 barrel is.


      • Here’s the picture with the muzzle break sleeve on the front of the barrel. It makes it a couple inches longer.

        But in the above picture you can tell pretty good how much shorter the Crosman barrel is than the TR5 barrel.

        Oh and by adding the Crosman 1377 barrel the gun definitely hits harder than the factory TR5 barrel did. No chrony reading s but can just tell by how hard it hits the cans.



          • Michael
            Thanks.

            And it ended up looking that way because I was searching for accuracy.

            And I think I made a decision about mine after ready the comments today and BB’s report.

            Shot cycle seems to be something im kind of concerned about with this gun. Here in just a minute I’m going to detune mine.

            I didn’t want to cut the spring without having another to put incase it slows up to much. But I decided to take a little more than 3/8″ off the spring. When I do that I should end up with about a 1/4″ freeplay in the spring since the gun did have a very little amount of preload on it’s spring.

            I’ll put it back together that way with a light lithium grease lube and no spacer. So the gun will have less spring pressure than factory.

            And this is what kind of finalized my decision to cut the spring. I set the gun on my bag and held the gun with just my trigger hand and watched the gun shoot with out putting my face by the gun. The gun jumps forward and up and off the bag about a 1/4″. So I really think right now the guns recoil is killing accuracy.

            Remember my known accurate 1377 barrel is not as accurate in the TR5 with the pellets that have shot good in that barrel while it was in my 1377.

            Hopefully I can have a little shooting info today after cutting the spring and adding some lithium grease.


        • GF1
          So which do you think led to harder hitting and more accuracy? The shorter barrel, a tighter bore or both? I assume you used the clip with both barrels.
          Bob M


          • GF1
            But then you mentioned good pellets in the 1377 barrel did not do as well in the TR5 so it must involve the mag and feeding system as well.
            Bob M


            • Bob
              I think the Crosman barrel is better than the TR5 barrel.

              The Crosman barrel in the TR5 seems to be not as pellet picky as the TR5 barrel.

              But after detuning I’m thinking shot cycle had something to do with the accuracy too.


          • Bob
            Probably tighter barrel and shorter barrel helped accuracy. I know it had to speed up with the Crosman barrel because the pellet hit harder at a farther distance.


  8. B.B.,

    I think the relatively low power of the TR5 is its saving grace, especially given that as a bullpup, the powerplant is right next to the shooter’s cheek. I do think TIAT would be a good thing, and I intend to apply a small amount on my TR5.

    Accuracy is something I still can’t report on with mine as I have only been able to plink at aluminum pop cans from a very short distance. Off-hand I was not able to miss the large cans at 15-18 feet. But your observation about the rear sight makes perfect sense, of course. I seem to recall last generation Benjamin and Sheridan pistols having a rear notch too wide to allow them to be accurate.

    Michael


  9. BB

    Even if some accuracy fix is discovered it may be too late. This rifle is already out there. Somebody forced this gun to market too early and with a name that includes the word “Target”. When this happens it reflects poorly on the brand.

    Deck


    • Deck
      I agree. They should of tested more before releasing it. And yep “target” was a wrong word to use.

      But on the other hand it’s not a bad plinking gun even as it comes out of the box. I could hit 12 oz. aluminum cans all day long standing and unsupported at 10 or so yards. And bench rested at 15 yards.

      Now after the mods I did I’m hitting the cans out at 18 yards standing unsupported and hitting the cans bench rested at 25 yards. And I think I keep forgetting to mention the gun is very easy to handle. And another thing that I don’t think BB mentioned but the trigger blade is adjustable also.

      So both before and after the mods the gun is a good plinker. But no way a target gun. And I think that people that have or had Izzy’s that they was hopping the TR5 was here to replace it. That was probably another bad start to the TR5. Comparing it to something it isn’t.

      So all and all. For the money I would buy another. Matter of fact I want to get a green one like Edw has. Looks nice to me in green and with the mix of black with it.


  10. Comments concerning the Benjamin 310.

    Last Saturday, I was given a Benjamin 310. I’ve looked for a reasonable priced “tootsie” roll Benjamin for several years and now I have one. You ended the 310 series in Part 8 with the below statement:

    “I have thought about getting a new striker spring to see if I can restore the power to the gun. As it is, it tops out on 5 pumps and there is always air remaining after the shot. A fresh spring would take away the air remaining after the shot, and would give much more power on pumps 6 through 8.”

    Have you ever followed up with those thoughts? Jt60vette’s entry below also addressed the remaining air after firing a shot. Is it possible that Benjamin designed the 31x and 34x series airguns this way? My Benjamin 137 however does not retain air after firing a shot.

    From Jt60vette, November 20, 2018
    My 310 is presumably a little earlier with the 2 piece bolt and a flat faced rubber pump cup which I had to replace with a later style. I tried 4 of my 312/317s and all retained air after firing with 4 pumps so that must be pretty common.

    Just wondering. Hope to see you again at the Texas Airgun Show.

    Jonah


    • Jonah,

      It is very common for the 31x guns to hold some air. Usually it is not a problem unless you are trying to maximize power. There are two typical reasons for this to be a problem.

      One the gun has been left cocked for long periods of time scragging the spring. New spring needed.

      Second if it has the one piece bolt that is hollow for air transfer the cam that seals the bolt may be set too tight. If the bolt handle does not close tight against the tube it will restrict the transfer of air from the valve reducing the volume of air from the valve. Adjust the cam so the bolt closes all the way.

      Sound like you got a good one that has not been abused. They are fun guns and some are very accurate. The 310 is a smooth bore so its range will be limited.

      Don




      • BB
        I think you will do better with the dot sight then the factory open sights.

        I still want to put my dot sight on my TR5. But if you read my comment above to Michael. I decided to detune my TR5 today first. I want to mellow out the shot cycle. To me it’s just to much for this gun. Maybe I’m wrong. But it seems that way to me.

        In other words the factory barrel just might be good and a little tune in the tube is all the gun needs when it comes out of the box.

        What do you think about those ideas?


  11. “But a square post in a square notch that is too big like we see on the TR5 is very rare.”
    B.B.,
    After reading all the comments, I have just one dumb question, related back to your statement above.
    Do most airgun manufacturers have someone, an actual shooter who is familiar with airguns (like AirForce did with you), sit down and wring out a prototype before they go into production?
    It seems like a tech who is an actual shooter would have picked up on this right away.
    Or perhaps they thought, “Most people will scope this gun, so we won’t waste time fixing the open sights.”?
    Maybe I’ll go work for an airgun manufacturer after I retire from the Base…
    …then again, that might not work out so well…

    Manager#1: “Hey, our new tech, Dave, says the open sights on our new rifle ‘stink to high heaven.’ So, should we re-design them?”
    Manager#2: “What?!? No way! I’ve got 20,000 sets of those sights on order from our subcontractor; if we change the design now, I won’t get my bonus…and neither will you.”
    Manager#1: “Oh, uh, er…got it. Soooo…we fire Dave, right?”
    Manager#2: “Of course…AND shred his report!”

    Just a little humor for the day from my quirky brain; I’m sure airgun manufacturers are above such things. =>
    Thanking you for another great report,
    dave


    • Dave,

      Some manufacturers (Sig and AirForce) do and others (the Chinese, except for the one that makes the Seneca Aspen) don’t.

      Other than that, you are starting to sound like me. Come in off the ledge and we can talk about this calmly. 🙂

      B.B.



      • RidgeRunner,
        When I said “airgun manufacturers are above such things,” the implied second half of that statement is that there are other types of manufacturers who are not. And I know that because in my 37 years in engineering, I have worked for some of them. Hence, I only had to alter a few words from real life in order to come up with that closer-to-real-life than most people would believe scenario. =>
        Thanks man,
        dave
        P.S. And thanks again for that pic; I’ll let you know how it goes over tonight!


        • Dave,

          I apologize if it sounded as though I did not understand your implied humor and was in the least bit chastising you. Anyone who has breathed air on this earth for any length of time will likely understand your humorous implications. I myself am still dealing with such and should not take them so seriously anymore. “They” are not going to change, so muddle on and don’t let them spoil the tea.


    • That made me laugh Dave, although it is too close to real life to be funny. I think that we all have, at one time or another, bought products that were not as thoroughly tested as we expected. And my personal list includes cars, but let’s keep the focus on airguns.
      Best,
      Henry


      • “I think that we all have, at one time or another, bought products that were not as thoroughly tested as we expected.”
        Amen to that, Henry! And I’m with you on cars.
        But if we keep it to just airguns…
        RWS 45 in .177, R7 in .177, Tempest in .177 (two), HW97 in .177, Crosman 38T (four), Crosman 38C, Crosman 130 (two), Diana model 25 in .22, Crosman’s Single-Action Six in .22, HW30S in .22, and Colt NRA Peacemaker 7.5″ CO2 Pellet Revolver in .177…
        I either love or loved them, and was happy with all of them. =>



  12. A quick update.

    The detune ended up going well, notice I say ended up going well.

    I cut to much off the spring and had about a 1/2″ of freeplay in the spring. Basically a 1/2″ movement of the cocking arm before the it starts compressing the spring. Which is what’s there is after the shot is fired.

    We’ll absalutly a different shot cycle. Very smooth the gun didn’t even bump. Only one problem I think a pea shooter shoots harder than what it did. The pellet just lobbed out of the barrel.

    So here’s the ended up going well part. I ended up putting the 3/8 spacer in and the gun ended up right at zero free play in the spring. Remember the factory legnth spring had some preload in it. And alot of preload when I put the 3/8″ spacer with the factory legnth spring.

    The gun is now dead calm and poi was just a little lower but now I’m going through both sides of the 12oz. aluminum can at 18 yards. Instead of just one side of the can.

    I think I hit the sweet spot on the spring for the compression the piston makes with the seal. In otherwards no blow by past the piston seal.

    Oh and yes I’m now doing pellet touching groups at 10 yards and right at a 1-1/8″ at 20 yards consistently. And yes it’s a great day for shooting outside today. Absalutly calm out.

    So now I am very close to grouping with the TR5 and 1377 barrel as my 1377 did with that barrel. So shot cycle definitely had something to do with my TR5. Or it was the combination of things and I finally found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But it hits on target now. I can aim at the edge of the can and knock it flying now. Where as before this last mod I had to aim center mass to make sure I hit the can. Finally I got somewhere today.

    Now I’m going to try the other pellets again. I might even try the TR5 barrel again. Or maybe not. Now I don’t want to change it since it started working. You know what I mean. 🙂



      • Edw
        The only way to know how much was to much of the spring taken off would be keep shimming up till you see a increase in velocity and it peaks. Then if you add more shims you don’t get a increase in speed.

        That’s about the only way I know to find out what spring legnth to use in a gun.


    • That’s great GF1, congratulations! For what you say it looks like the piston was not sealing completely and it was reaching the end of the chamber a little too fast. Is the piston seal material too hard? Whatever the case, the de-tuning as you call it, has done a lot of good for the TR5 cycle, and its precision. A nice lesson in there for all of us interested in the inner workings of these guns.

      Now, I know I am asking a lot, but if time allows it would be interesting to see what happens with the no-preload spring length and the original barrel. With luck, the groups and the ‘aluminum chrony’ could answer two big questions, barrel quality and length.

      Anyway, keep us informed on the results with different pellets.

      Best,
      Henry


      • Henry
        Thanks. And I don’t really want to change my TR5 now after my results today after detuning.

        I think what needs to be done now is somebody (BB) should try shooting his TR5 with the dot sight. Then do a tune in the tube lube on his gun and see what happens.

        I think that’s really where the TR5 is at right now. I think it is a good gun as is. It just needs a little lube to mellow out the shot cycle. Wouldn’t that be great if that’s all they forgot to do when they made the gun. 🙂


    • GF1,

      Way to go! Tinkering comes out on top once again. 😉

      To me, keep a spring right at full extension length. Beyond that, thump.

      I am thinking shot cycle. Release, extend, bounce (due to air cushion), extend, rest. Upping spring strength may increase power (fpe), but keep that length the same. Correct length may be the key to all springers. 0 preload at rest.

      Chris



        • Larry,

          Not familiar with the 124/127’s. Bottom line,… I do not know. I do think that most springer guns are over-sprung. What it comes down to is for air gun manufacturers to their homework. A weaker spring that is (past) 0 preload (still under load) may do just fine. GF1 has proved on several occasions that chopping a spring has 0 effect on power. So,… if it ain’t giving you more power,…. then it is probably messing with your shot cycle,…. giving you a harsher (thump) at stroke end. Pure guessing,… with a bit of experience.

          Chris



          • Chris/GF1,
            I may have spoken out of line here.
            When I bought my FWBs the “great 800 fps wars” were in progress. For the technology of the time, maybe Feinwerkbau thought that was what was needed to put them over the top. Since those two and a Wischo 55 were the only air rifles I had ever shot, and since several decades have passed since then, I have to confess that I really don’t remember what all the shooting characteristics were. Subjectively, I knew they all shot great, accurate, and were terrific for harvesting rabbits.
            Over the years the 124 got broken and had the stock repaired, and since my brother had this arranged, I’m pretty sure the spring and piston seal were also replaced, probably by parts from Maccari. A few years later the piston seal on my 127 blew and I got a replacement kit from Maccari. It was pretty obvious that his technique was to use a shorter spring with a spacer for his upgrade. I replaced the spring and seal and lubed it using a Moly paste around the seal and the ARH spring tar (on the spring) I also purchased.
            To this day, if I was going rabbit hunting, I would most likely take one of these FWBs before my RWS 34, HW 95, or Walther Terrus. Probably because that set trigger feature of the 124/127 just fit my style of hunting better.
            Bottom line I truly agree with you both – especially since you were saying the same thing. (big smile)
            LMo


            • Larry
              Thanks for the reply.

              And I still have a early 70’s ARH catalog from when I was in my early teens that has both guns in you mentioned.

              I wanted alot of guns out of that catalog but never got one. Dirt bikes and cars got my attention plus had my rimfire semi-auto and shot guns and Benji 392. So I was ok.

              But I do wish that I could of got some of those guns back then. I would get some now. But I want good ones. Not something I got to go through and see if things are ok.

              I think the wrong place in time for me. Maybe not though. Who knows what the future will bring. 🙂


              • GF1,
                I guess I was fortunate at being in the place/time I was for airguns, motorcycles, and cars. Of course, there was the little thing in Viet Nam going on.
                I wish I had more of an upbringing like you did, tho. I had a LOT of catching up to do. My first experience with shooting anything was an M-14 in USMC boot camp. A while later I was stationed at Cherry Point, NC in the air wing and got so bored with no transportation to get off base I went to the 1stSgt and asked to be able to go to Nam on the next set of orders in place of whichever Marine was scheduled. I was told the scheduling was already set and I would have to wait for my own orders. I grabbed a bus to get to Jacksonville (Camp Lejeune) went to the local motorcycle shop and asked for the biggest off road bike they had. I explained I could get orders for Nam in a matter of months and it would have to be big enough to make the 1120 mile ride down to Naples, Fla where I would be able to leave it with my kid brother. He quickly saw a way to unload the BSA 441 Victor he had in stock that didn’t look like was going to sell. I had the same experience with motorcycles that I had with guns so of course I said I would take it. I didn’t test ride it or do any compare shopping so it was a pretty scary experience a couple of weeks late when I came back to pick it up for a long weekend visit to my other brother in Greenville, SC, a 350 mile trip. Long story short, I learned A LOT about motorcycles on that trip. I got my orders about 6 mos later – to JAPAN.
                Returning from Japan, I was stationed at Courthouse Bay, Camp Lejeune and worked under the Maintenance Officer on the Amtraks there. His wife was having a baby and could no longer climb in/out of his immaculate 1971 (and a half) Datsun 240Z. I bought it and that was the highlight of my cars. I had to leave the car with my aforementioned kid brother because I got orders overseas again – this time to Okinawa.
                Again, after a couple of years as a Staff Sgt I found myself, unmarried and having food and board supplied, that almost all of my pay was discretionary spending. That’s when I discovered airguns. I wrote to Dr. Beeman and never heard back. I wrote to Robert Law of ARH and received a nice letter back so I decided he would get all of my business. I ordered a Webley Premier Mk II pistol which I still have and what I determined was the most powerful springer I could find which appeared to be the FWB 124. I got his most expensive options of stock and tune. I still have that rifle.
                As for buying the old guns, you may have missed out, but you seem to be able to turn the new ones you buy into “great” ones – a wonderful talent that you have generously shared with us.
                The future? Quien Sabe?
                LMo


                • Larry,

                  You brought back a memory for me. When I was going with wife many years ago, I owned a Yamaha 200 scrambler. We took it off road but it wasn’t really a dirt bike and didn’t do that well. I got tired of the ring-a-ding two cycle and started looking for a 4-stroke bike. One of my friends had a BSA 441 Victor for sale. Okay, that’s big single cylinder thumper. That thing vibrated so badly I couldn’t read the speedometer. It was a real shaker. I took my wife to be with me to try the bike out. I was used to Jap bikes with the brake on the right and shift on the left. I turned a corner which had some gravel on the pavement and when I braked to slow for the corner, nothing happened and I ended up laying it down right there in the gravel. My wife still remembers getting her leg burned on the stupid heat shield. Note: English bikes are backwards with the brake on the left. Lesson learned, and guess you know I didn’t buy that BSA. Later I bought a Yamaha 650 4-stroke. That was a great bike and I found the quality to be vastly superior to the BSAs and Triumphs of the that period in 1970. Thanks for the memory.

                  Geo


                  • Geo791,
                    Great story! I see that you had already been corrupted by the rice burners before testing this classic bike. (smiles)
                    Like I said, I learned a LOT about motorcycles on my trip to visit my brother (at the Bob Jones Academy) in Greenville, including how to stand on the pegs and karate kick the kick starter, tearing into the Amal carburetor to scrape scale off the slide, carry spare head and tail lights, thanks to Lucas electrics, and watch my mileage to keep track of when I was low on gas. I’m sure there’s more I’ve forgotten to mention.
                    My next bike was one I bought in Iwakuni, Japan – a Suzuki 120cc Cat – a model that never made it to the States in the 3 high, 3 low configuration. Had a SUPER wide power band for each of its three gears so it was an ideal plonker (not to be confused with plinker).
                    After my air gun years (part one) I resumed my love of motorcycles with a Triumph Tiger followed by a Bonneville.
                    I now have a Harley but figure at my age now I need something lighter. I may just get a Royal Enfield Himalayan.
                    LMo
                    P.S. BTW, I’m planning on an almost cross-country trip in a couple of months to Ohio to ride the triple-nickel. Plan is to head south to pick up the beginning of the loneliest road in America, aka Rt 50. If anyone lives close to that path I would absolutely love to visit and buy you lunch.


                  • Geo791, when I was in my early 20’s, I owned a Yamaha 180 scrambler. That one later begat the 200 you owned. I test rode a BSA 441 Victor many years ago. In high school (class of ’72) a mid 1960’s BSA 500 twin was my transportation. Almost bought a new leftover Yamaha 650 twin, but ended up getting a new 1976 Honda CB750K model instead.


                    • Birdmove,

                      You can’t go wrong with a Honda. They were great bikes back then and still are today. If you like quiet and smooth, Hondas can’t be beat. I almost bought a Triumph Bonneville but then when I compared it to the Yamaha 650, the Yamaha was an easy choice. The Triumphs had antiquated pushrod engines with a lot of vibration. The Yamaha 650 had overhead cams and put out 53 hp in a 460 lb bike. Same hp as a Volkswagen beetle. One of my buddies had a Triumph 500 Trophy. Every time we stopped he had to check the screws that would vibrate loose. Oil dripped from the Triumph’s primary chain case too. My Yamaha was all gears and never leaked a drop of oil.


                    • Birdmove,
                      Since I missed my test ride of my 441, how did your test ride go? Maybe if I test rode it I wouldn’t have bought it but I surely would have missed out on a lot.
                      Larry from Algona


                • Larry
                  Thanks and I just try to make them how I like them to work.

                  And bet that little 240Z was a screamer. I liked those cars.

                  But yep I was into dirt bikes and muscle cars back then. Perfect timing for a kid getting his license in the mid 70’s.

                  Yep them were some fun times back then. Well and now too. 🙂


                  • GF

                    A lot of people tinker like that but you (and a couple of others in this group) are very giving of help/instruction to the rest of us.

                    The 240Z was the best car I’ve ever owned. While in the service I seemed to switch duty stations every year to a year-and-half so inbetween moves I usually piled up my leave time to take the full 30 days. On one such transfer I grabbed a military standby flight to Seattle, where by then my whole immediate family moved, including my kid brother who brought along the Z. I picked up the car and drove cross country to my next duty station on the East coast but took a little side trip thru W. Virginia to look up Robert Law at ARH. Grantsville, W VA was a pretty little town located on the east side of the Appalacian Mountain range. Picture 7 miles going up mountain roads with no straight sections and then going down another 7 miles with no straights. I had that car going as fast as I could manage and never got past 2 gear.

                    I got my license in the early 60’s so my muscle car at the time was my mom’s ’56 Chevy.

                    I was at ARH to buy a scope for my 124. Robert Law wasn’t available but one of his service guys showed my around the shop. He was particularly happy to show off the shops spring compressor that they had built themselves. Pretty massive compared to the one I have now.

                    LMo


                    • Larry
                      Please stop. I’m just hav’n fun. Really I work on stuff just to see what it can do. If I accomplish something great. If not I learn and go on. I got to entertain myself some way. You know what I mean. 🙂

                      And yep I always liked the twisty’s as we called them as a kid. I always liked drag racing and getting from point A to point B as quick as I could too. But them back roads really showed if you knew how to drive. Every night and I mean every night I was power sliding (drifting for the younger folk) my 72 Z28 4 speed through the corners on those back roads. It was what we called no man’s land in the sense of cars back then. Anybody that was out there was to show off how they could drive. No cops no speed limit. Nobody that wasn’t suppose to be there. We just ran em hard and had fun. Darn them days was so cool. Oh and just to say that was the mid to late 70’s. How about that. A kid buying his first car with grass cutting money that was about 5 years old when I bought it. 🙂

                      And lucky you to seen the ARH shop.


      • Chris
        Definitely no sense in overpowering a springer. Just extra wear and tear on the gun. Plus a more pleasant shooting gun when you get that spring calmed down.

        That’s the way I do my springers. 🙂



  13. GF1 & BB
    When you mentioned what happened when you fired it with one hand and it jumped up and forward a bulb lit in my head.
    I’ll bet the angled down action combined with the impact of the slightly preloaded spring thump just throws the barrel all over the place. Ever so slightly as it may be.
    The artillery hold would be useless if recoil was not in line with the barrel.
    The slightest change in the vertical hold would change the impact point also, jumping a little left or right.
    Bob M


    • Bob
      Yes I was waiting to see if anyone would mention it. I absolutely believe that is what is happening with the TR5.

      The smoother you get it to shoot the better.

      And that’s why I keep one finger on my fore hand rested on the top off the stock when I shoot off a bag. The gun does shoot better that way.

      See the TR5 just needs some new learning. I think after some more time with mine I will get what I want out of it. Matter of fact I’m real close now.


      • GF1
        Another thing you did was remove the fore stock, muzzle break and shortened the barrel. That reduced the amount of mass weight out front and that reduced the amount of momentum it developed throwing the rifle off target when it was fired.

        Now you just gotta wonder, how much good engineering was really put into that odd looking original Baikal…. and ….. discarded or overlooked in this recreation !
        The stock was designed and gripped in a different way that probably helped it remain stable too.

        This rifle probably needs an entirely different hold to get the most out of it.
        Bob M


        • Bob
          Yep plus I wanted the barrel to free float. Look at the Izzy and see how much barrel it’s got exsposed.

          Like I mentioned. I don’t want to play musical barrels with this gun since it’s finally starting to group good. I have a .177 Maximus barrel. I think I’m going to get one of the green TR5’s and do some barrel changing and see what happens.

          And here is something I thought about doing too. I have some Crosman barrels that will work that are like the 1377 barrel I used in my TR5. I have some that are even Lothar Walther barrels in .177 and .22 caliber. What I thought about is making the green TR5 a .22 caliber. The barrel will fit just the same as what the .177 caliber 1377 barrel fits like. And what I will do is drill 1 clip out to accept .22 caliber pellets. That would be a cool gun too. And I bet ya I won’t have no pellets falling out when I get through drilling that clip. 🙂



  14. I’m both disappointed and relieved. I bought an IZH 61 a few years back. I like everything about it, but accurate it is not! Out of the box, the barrel was grotesquely dirty. Initially My gun shot 2 inches to the right at 25 feet. Someone suggested a severe re-crowning; so I drilled out 2 inches of the muzzle with a 3/8i inch drill bit. (The steel is very soft). I am now getting quarter sized groups that are only 1 inch to the right at 25 feet. I’m using a red dot, but it’s spooky to see the dot floating so far to the right of the barrel. I guess my hopes that the TR 5 was an improvement on the IZH 61 have been dashed! I do like the gun though, it’s a ball to shoot. I just have to accept its limitations. For me, I won’t be replacing it with a TR5.


  15. Those are the skirts after being shot into water. The magazine is just holding them up for the pictures. I think the indexing of the mag isn’t close enough and the probe has mangled them.



    • Edw
      Oh ok.

      And I don’t think it’s the probe.

      I think the pellets are coming out of the clip just enough to bend the skirt when the clip indexes.


      • How so? The pellets don’t extend from either side of the clip. They are seated with a 1/4″ audio plug that pops them in place about .002 from flush on the skirt side.




          • Edw
            They could come out. Indexing and cocking could bump the clip enough to make the pellets fall out enough to catch as the clip index’s. I had pellets fall out of the clip when I was loading the clip in the gun even after deep seating.

            But in this case I believe you said the magic word. The pellets with the bent skirts didn’t show the rifling on the bent part of the skirts.

            So still maybe not the probe. And but maybe the probe.

            To me it sounds like a indexing alignment problem that would cause the probe to hit the pellet.

            Maybe blow out your breech area where the clip is loaded. Maybe it’s not indexing right for some reason.


            • I don’t think the pellets are moving. I can drop the loaded clip after seating with my tool and they don’t fall out, just tried 3 times on concrete. That makes me think indexing too. But it’s likely hitting one side of the breech. that would account for the flat. Probe it hitting close enough, but the breech is flattening the skirt a tad.


              • Edw
                No I don’t think the skirt is hitting the breech when it’s loading. The head of the pellet would show the damage.

                I think when the cocking arm is opened that possibly the probe could still be forward and catches the skirt as the clip indexes.

                Remember when I said I wish they would of made the TR5 a single shot. All of this is what I was talking about.


              • Edw,

                Unless you are firing into the five gallon bucket (preferably from an elevated position) almost vertically, there is a strong possibility that your pellets are contacting the side of the bucket which will cause the denting of the skirt. I do not believe that the probe is causing this issue but to verify, once the clip is fully loaded with pellets place a witness mark on the inside of the pellet skirt at 3 o’clock and repeat your test. A small scratch done with a box cutter or exacto knife would work.

                On your rifle, can you release the pellet probe without cocking the rifle?

                I would strongly suggest that you no longer drop test your loaded clips on concrete because it could damage them. Wood would be a much better medium because it will not ding the plastic. Did you ever notice when you drop a bolt on concrete that it most always seems to land right on the start of the threads and buggers them up?

                Good luck with your testing.

                Bugbuster


                • Bugbuster,

                  One of the best I have seen is a piece of 4″ PVC pipe packed with pillow stuffing. A bit more hassle to recover, but it seems the best. With water, if the pellet deforms in the least bit, it could “plane” off in a side direction and strike the bucket side.

                  Actually, I am surprised that a 5 gal. of water will even stop/slow the pellet enough to not deform it more than what Ed’s pics have shown. Very surprised. I would have expected it to go straight out the bottom.

                  Chris



                  • Chris USA, Gunfun 1,

                    At this point I believe that the 5 gallon bucket was only partially full of water after looking more closely at the fired round nose pellets which exhibit signs of them striking something other than water at an oblique angle. The pellet heads are bent off to the side. If the bucket was full or nearly so, it would have a 13″ to 14″ water column which I believe would even stop a round nose pellet fired from a low powered springer such as this. Obviously, a wadcutter would have been a better choice. Since the rifling engraved in the pellet is not that pronounced to begin with, it could easily have been swaged out or nearly so from the excessive impact with the bottom of the bucket.

                    GF 1, a few days ago we discussed how to leave the clip fully in the TR5 so that it would be fully protected within the receiver. I suggested leaving it with four pellets ( 2 through 5) in the clip and you suggested leaving it empty (a safer way if the rifle is not secured and there are children or idiot adults around). To leave the clip out simply close the cocking lever on the last (number 5 pellet at which time there will be 3 empty chambers exposed) shot left in the clip, re-cock the rifle, remove expended clip, return cocking lever to the latched position and fire the last pellet, clip out, gun empty!

                    Bugbuster


                    • Bugbuster,
                      The bucket was full to the top, except the displacement my forearm made, so about 3/4″ low. I was shooting at 90 to the water, they definately didnt hit the bucket sides. Like GF1 pointed out the skirts that were bent showed no rifling marks, but were bright. So it looks like the pellet head is going cleanly into the breech, then the magazine scoots over a bit and the skirt bends on the breech. At least that’s my latest theory.


                • Bugbuster
                  But Edw pointed out that you could not see any rifling marks on the pellets he recovered from the bucket of water where the dented skirt was.

                  If it was bent after firing you should be able to see the rifling marks at the dented spot also.


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