Air Arms S410 TDR precharged pneumatic pellet rifle: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Air Arms TDR rifle
Both side of the Air Arms S410 TDR.

Part 1

This report covers:

  • Equipment malfunction
  • Why a pump?
  • A different test
  • Loading and cocking
  • No double feeds
  • High power
  • The end of the power curve
  • Low power
  • Medium power
  • Trigger pull
  • Butt adjustment
  • Observations so far

Today we test the velocity of the .22 caliber Air Arms S410 TDR Classic. Because it has a power adjuster, we will look at power on the high, medium and low settings. We will also look at the shot count, how easy the magazine is the load, the trigger setting and generally how the rifle functions.

Equipment malfunction

In Part 1 I said I would test this rifle out at the range because of the loud report, but an equipment malfunction plus the weather caused me to change my plans. The malfunction was my Hill pump that has been reliable until now. When I hooked it up to the TDR out at the range it failed to operate. That’s probably because I don’t use it very often and these things need to be exercised or they will seize up. I will continue to exercise it and hopefully get it running again.

Fortunately I hadn’t returned the Air Venturi G6 hand pump to Pyramyd Air yet, so when I returned home I unpacked it and put it into operation. This is the only hand pump I have that works at present, so I think I will buy it from Pyramyd Air. It’s the only hand pump that comes with the parts to overhaul it in the box with the new pump.

Why a pump?

Why am I using a hand pump for this rifle? Why not just fill it from my carbon fiber tank like every other PCP I shoot? Well, Air Arms puts a proprietary fill adapter on their PCP guns. It mates to nothing else. The threads are 1/8-inch BSP, so it will attach to almost all hoses, but nobody makes an adapter to go from the Air Arms adapter to an industry standard Foster quick disconnect adapter. So my CF tank won’t connect. I am not going to take my CF tank hose apart because I use it on so many other airguns, so another way to fill had to be found. Hence the pump.

If you want to see a picture of the fill adapter for the TDR, go to Part 1. It is shown next to the place on the rifle it must be installed.

A different test

My normal velocity test is shooting 3 different pellets to see their velocities. But when a rifle has adjustable power the test becomes more complex. So this test will be different. I selected just one pellet for today’s test — the JSB Exact Jumbo 15.89-grain dome. I will shoot that pellet on high power, low power and medium power. I will also get a shot count on high power and either low or medium power — whichever makes the most sense. That will entail a lot of shooting and should tell us what we want to know about the rifle. Let’s begin.

Loading and cocking

The 10-round magazine is advanced by the rifle’s action mechanically. There is no spring to be wound up or set. Therefore, loading the magazine is as simple as dropping a pellet into each chamber and advancing the rotary clip inside the magazine to the next chamber. There is nothing you need to hold or restrain.

The loaded magazine slides into the rifle’s receiver from the left side. The only precaution to take is to make sure the bolt is completely retracted and out of the way.

No double feeds

The bolt is stiff and hard to cock. I think it will break in as the rifle is used, but for this test I had to watch it or it wouldn’t cock all the way. It does advance the magazine to the next pellet though. If this happens, you can feed a second pellet into the breech. To prevent that just remove the magazine and cock the rifle. Then insert the magazine and everything will be fine. I had to do this one time, but the rifle never fed more than one pellet throughout the test.  Toward the end of the test after 80 shots had been fired I was getting used to cocking it and it did seem easier.

High power

I filled the rifle to 200 bar, which is 2900 psi. That’s the maximum fill pressure recommended by the manufacturer. Then I started shooting. The first 10 shots averaged 838 f.p.s. The low was 827 f.p.s. and the high was 853 f.p.s. That’s a 26 f.p.s. spread. At the average velocity this pellet generated 24.78 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

The second 10 shots averaged 868 f.p.s. The low was 857 f.p.s. and the high was 873 f.p.s. So the spread for this string was 16 f.p.s. At the average velocity the pellet produced 26.69 foot pounds of energy.

The third 10-shot string averaged 848 f.p.s. with a low of 825 f.p.s. and a high of 865 f.p.s. The spread for this string was 40 f.p.s. and the muzzle energy for the average velocity is 25.38 foot-pounds.

This third string was in decline for nearly all shots. It was clear to me the rifle was coming down off the power curve. So I say there are a total of 30 good shots on a fill when the gun is set to high power. The total spread for those 30 shots runs from a low of 825 f.p.s. to a high of 873 f.p.s.. That’s 48 f.p.s., which seems a little excessive.

If we limit the rifle to just the first 2 magazines we get a spread that runs from 827 f.p.s. to 873 f.p.s. That’s still a total of 46 f.p.s. over the 20 shots, so we might as well include the third magazine. I will shoot the rifle at 50 yards and see what these velocity swings do to the point of impact.

After 30 high-power shots the gauge on the rifle said there was 145 bar of pressure remaining. That’s 2,103 psi.

The end of the power curve

I knew from looking at the velocities of the third magazine that the TDR was at the end of its useful shots on high power, but for the benefit of the newer airgunners I did fire an additional 10 shots — just to see what happened. Here are those shots in succession.

Shot……………Velocity f.p.s.
31………………….819
32………………….814
33………………….810
34………………….804
35………………….798
36………………….789
37………………….785
38………………….777
39………………….776
40…………………760

I’m not going to factor these shots into the calculations because they are clearly off the power curve. I just wanted to show them so you could see that the rifle really does have just 30 shots on high power.

Low power

After shooting 40 shots the rifle was sitting at 110 bar (1,595 psi). It took 94 pump strokes from the G6 hand pump to get back to 200 bar. Then the power was adjusted to the lowest setting and I shot 10 shots. They averaged 390 f.p.s. with a low of 385 f.p.s. and a high of 394 f.p.s. So the spread was 9 f.p.s. on low power. The average velocity is generating 5.37 foot-pounds at the muzzle. But nobody is going to buy the TDR to shoot this slow. This led to the decision to advance the power setting to medium and try another 10 shots.

Before I move on, though, consider this. You now know the range of velocity/power the TDR will give you. It should be possible to find several sweet spots within that range.

Air Arms TDR rifle power setting
This is where I set the power for medium.

Medium power

All I did to set the power to medium is turn the power knob until the indicator on the left side of the receiver was centered in its range. A session at the range is needed to confirm that this is where the gun wants to be. I had already shot 10 shots on low power when I started this session, and the gun was not topped off after those shots.

The first 10 shots on medium power (but the second 10 after filling the gun) averaged 761 f.p.s. They ranged from a low of 756 f.p.s. to a high of 767 f.p.s. — so the spread was 11 f.p.s. That’s considerably less than the spread of the first 10 pellets on high power. At the average velocity these pellets generated 20.44 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

The second string of 10 shots averaged 760 f.p.s. — just one foot per second slower than the first 10. The range went from a low of 755 f.p.s to a high of 766 f.p.s. That’s also 11 f.p.s. total spread. If we combine the two strings, the total spread is just 12 f.p.s. That’s almost one-quarter the spread of the first two strings on high power (46 f.p.s.). At the average velocity this string put out 20.38 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.

The third string, however, fell off the power curve. These were shots 31 through 40, because of the initial 10 low power shots. Here is the string.

Shot……………Velocity f.p.s.
1………………….754
2………………….745
3………………….751
4………………….739
5………………….740
6………………….733
7………………….734
8………………….734
9………………….729
10………………..728

As you can see, the velocity dropoff isn’t as severe in this fourth string as it was in the fourth string on high power, and it also doesn’t start with the first shot. Nevertheless, there does seem to be about the same 30 good shots at medium power as there are at high power. These shots are a lot more stable, though, and perhaps that stability will show up in the 50 yard accuracy test.

Trigger pull

As it came from the factory the test rifle had a 2-stage trigger that broke at 1 lb. 13 oz. The second stage was crisp without any creep so I left those adjustments alone. All I adjusted was the weight of the trigger pull. When I finished it broke at 1 lb. 5 oz. That’s light enough for me. The pull weight was uniform, shot to shot, which makes this an easy trigger to get used to.

Butt adjustment

While I was at it, I adjusted the rubber buttpad as low as it would go, to bring the cheekpiece up higher. It still lacks about an inch of reach for me in the offhand position (the scope is too high), but it will be pretty good off a sandbag, when I am leaning forward.

Observations so far

The TDR has all the power it’s advertised to have, but it’s much stabler on a lower setting. The shot count is higher than I expected, but it doesn’t seem to increase by a significant amount as the power is adjusted down — at least to the medium point. Thirty shots per fill are what you can count on from the medium to high-power settings.

The trigger is light and crisp. The trigger adjustments work very well.

The butt attaches and detaches quite fast. Once attached, the rifle is rock-solid. I look forward to trying the rifle at 50 yards.

51 thoughts on “Air Arms S410 TDR precharged pneumatic pellet rifle: Part 2


    • After almost a hundred strokes I’ll bet he’s happy to see that! Going to 3000psi is gonna be a bit of a chore for me but I wouldn’t mind trying out one of those .25 Mrods one of these days.


      • Reb,

        You can always adjust the MRod down to operate at 2000 PSI. Your shot count will be a little lower and you will have to pump it up more often, but it is a lot easier to top off when you do.


        • But the .25 uses so much air I’d feel obligated to get it as close to max pressure on each fill as I could without overly straining my wrists.
          I’m working on table muscle but you gotta get them outta the way in order to use it.


          • LOL! How well do I know! My handles are constantly bumping into my belly. The extra mass does help when the pressure reaches the high end though.

            Another question is, do you really need the .25? The .22 can take tree rats out to 100 yards. I have been going back and forth about these two for some time now. The one thing in favor of the .25 from my perspective is that should I desire to go to a bigger caliber, the .25 is easily converted to .30.

            Now we are into the realm of air hogs. I played with Lloyd’s .357 Rogue for a few months. Try feeding an air hog like that with a hand pump.



      • BB
        Yes it will. It will thread directly on to the threads of the AirArms fitting.

        I have used that fitting also on my FX and Hatsan QE probe.

        You leave it screwed on to your AirArms fitting and just use your foster female quick connect from your hose to connect on that fitting that I provided the link for. You never have to take that fitting off of your AirArms fitting. Just connect and disconnect as you like from your foster quick disconnect.


      • BB
        Look at your picture in part 1. The fitting I gave the link to screws right on to that brass fitting. The brass fitting still slides on to your gun as normal. You just use that Foster male fitting to connect to a foster female quick disconnect fitting that’s attached to your fill device.


  1. I looked to see if PA offered this gun in .25 but only saw a listing for .177.
    I like the idea of a brief case carbine but the price on this one blows any budget I’ll have for a long time.


    • You and me both. The only room I have at my budget is for the guns with the onboard multi pumps. I’ve got a Crosman 66 that I modified with a weaker valve spring. It would be interesting to see what it cronies at. Is it you or Slinging Lead who has the pumper that chronies at 770 with 7.9 CHPs?


      • I did get that velocity outta my Remington Airmaster! I can’t remember but I believe that was with 14 pumps and the only power mod so far is just sealing the breech block to the barrel with shoe goo and ensuring the transfer port was burr free. It’s my most accurate and reliable .177 but that took other details like trigger polishing and a full length barrel stabilizer.
        I’ve got a BB stop to reinstall so I may go back inside it before much longer and thinking about addressing the innards of the valve but I’ve also got two 766’s to rebuild first.
        My project right now is a Crosman 2200 magnum I have apart on my coffee table.





            • I thought all 66’s were rifle barrels but I found out differently. This 66c was. I shimmed the barrel inside a half inch steel tube with electrical tape spacers. I used a 760 barrel band that I reamed out to hold the tube. Works pretty well so far. You can use half inch aluminum tubing but I used to steel for extra barrel weight up front.


              • I did the penetration test on a 9 ply board with JSB 8.4 Extracts. The Leverage shot them two pellets deep. The Crosman 66 with 14 pumps drove them a pellet and one millimeter deep. I would guess 700 + fps. What do you think?



                • Only a chronograph could tell you how fast the pellet’s going but it sounds like you’re probably somewhere above 8 and under 10 fpe.
                  Which is very good for such a gun but overpumping is hard on some of these inexpensive pumpers and will wear them out sooner than finding a sweet spot to enjoy the balance of accuracy and power. My 760 is valve locking before 10 pumps but my Airmaster always uses all 14 pumps every time, even so I usually don’t go over 10 which is good for about 50 yards, I save the 14’s for 75- 80 and shoot 9.8 Winchester round noses.


  2. Pertaining to the fill connector, after i replaced the standard cylinder on my AA T200 with the type that uses this weird connector, I couldn’t use my Hill pump either. I ended up getting a longer micro bore hose and an adapter from Joe Brancato. They will work for Air Arms, Hatsan and FX I believe.

    The one from PA is the same and much cheaper, and I used one for my AT44. You simply screw it on to the fill probe using tape and then you can use a Foster type quick connect.


  3. B.B.

    I’m back on surface, that was quite an educating and fruitful time in the deep 🙂 And I’ve got something misterious for all. My catch today (actually – yesterday) is this:

    http://i61.tinypic.com/4kdwg8.jpg

    That’s the long-waited main coupling for Mk.II. I’d call it “an alpha detail”, the thing that starts everything and holds everything together. I can see it in my crystal orb – strange-looking pieces of steel, aluminum alloy and titanium coming together to form something weird and ugly…

    duskwight


    • Duskwight
      Nice piece of machining.

      Only one thing looks kind of scary. Kind of a thin wall on that big diameter at the bottom of the part.

      Sorry for the criticism but don’t mean it as negative. Was wondering if that’s a high stress point there. Could possibly crack?


      • Gunfun,

        If it could, it woud not be there 😉 There’s no stress points there, no vertical load, this part works along the axis of the big bore and the load is pressure, so that’s just like 60 mm thick bar.
        All the load goes to that squarish piece to the rear, one with diagonally placed screw holes. And that is made exessively strong, with 4-5 time the reserve on actual load. If I could, the thing would be even more “chiseled” but there are some production restrictions on serious “lacework”.

        duskwight


        • Duskwight
          Ok was just wondering. And it’s always nice to try to make them weigh less. Or chisled more as you say.

          Do you have a idea about how much the gun will weigh when your done. Or maybe I should say what your trying for.


          • Gunfun,

            The Big Idea is “as little as possible”. The bitter truth would be “heavier than any usual springer anyway” 🙂 I hope for 4-4.5 kilos.

            Trust me, I’m doing my best to cut off as much material and drive weight out of it as much as possible, leaving as much “air” in this airgun as I can with my current level of skill and computation abilities x or / available production and raw material options.

            E.g. I would gladly use magnesium alloy chrome-lined pipe for the compressor and “aircraft armor” lithium-titanium-aluminum alloy for receiver with titanium and tungsten-doped titanium for syncro unit and some stuff made from carbon fiber, with trigger and pistons being the only steel parts (for wear resistance and sheer weight), machined on 5-axis high precision CNC machines. I would – heh 🙂

            However, as much as I am sorry to point this out for myself, my choice is limited with several sorts of steel, 7075 alloy and some titanium. I have access to simple CNC, milling, lathes, laser cutter and EDM machine – and each one has a limited access window that requires some social engineering _and_ money. And a very limited supply of workforce and worktime. So for me it’s no Silicon Valley of 2015 or even NASA of 1969 (I’d love to), it’s London and Blitz is upon us or, maybe Ruhr 1944 with Mighty 8th above us.

            So I have to improvise – and use more durable materials (heavier ones) “laceworking” them at the same time opting for simplest of forms to prevent workers from fails. Just to give an example – the detail you see was re-engineered for 50% after meeting with production capabilities. Receiver is reworked 4 times. Cocking mechanism – twice. All that just to stay within limits of machines’ and people’s capabilities.

            duskwight


            • Duskwight
              I totally understand what you mean about improvising to get the job done.

              We have to do that alot for different situations. The simpler it can be done usually means less room for error. Well as long as it doesn’t take away from what the finnish product can do or how durable it will be.

              And I’ll bet you’ll end up with a wonderful air gun and we won’t even be able to get one on this side of the pond. I believe they are not selling guns to the US anymore are they?


    • duskwight,

      I’m sorry but my computer is infected with a virus that Apple calls Opera — a search engine. It has taken over my computer like a virus and now it has gone buggy. I wasn’t able to see your part until today. Nice job! You should design airguns for as living. 😉

      B.B.


      • B.B.

        You are overestimating my modest capabilities. First of all I am nothing without many people around me, who help me. I just make an idea and some drawing. Anyone can dream and imagine anything. But it’s people who make your dreams turn into metal – they are the deal.
        And in fact – I didn’t invent anything. I just took (copied) well-known and many times copied solutions and brought them all together. Well, maybe some airgun company will be stupid enough to waste some money on crazy guy like me, but that would be a definite folly – I am no engineer in any way, so perhaps they have a “stubborn dreamer” position for guys like me 🙂

        duskwight



  4. Hi B.B.

    A quick question on the power adjuster found on some PCPs…

    If the tank-pressure/valve-spring/hammer-spring controls the volume of the “pulse” of air available for the shot and the power adjuster is a variable orifice throttling the air flow to the pellet, what happens to extra air that has been released from the tank but restricted by a low-power setting on the power adjuster?

    Thanks,
    Hank


    • Hank,

      There is no additional air released. The air port that is controlled by the power adjuster is located at the end of the reservoir.

      When the air port is reduced, it’s like a door being made smaller. As long as it is open the crowd can walk through, but when it shuts they stop. If the door is smaller, fewer people pass through while it is open.

      B.B.


      • That makes sense, I was thinking that the adjuster was outside the reservoir and down-stream of the valve.

        …like your analogy – had a good visual of a crowd pushing and shoving all trying to get through the door at the same time. 🙂

        Thanks B.B!


  5. Not specifically on-topic, but timely, and quite possibly of interest to this group: it seems that one Marilyn Williams has successfully defended herself from a couple of would-be burglars…with an M-Rod.

    If you’ll pardon the outclick, anyone interested can start with a few links here (full disclosure: that’s me), or you can Google search something like “Marilyn Williams sharpshooter ROTC” and find it yourself.

    I think it’s worth seeing as a data point. The ironies, at least from what I’ve seen so far, are substantial, and she herself cuts a pretty impressive figure with her attitude. (Her attitude, of course, is what won her the fight in the first place.) The funny part is that, again from what I’ve seen so far, nobody in “authorized media” land–which is usually so quick to focus right in on the details of the gun–has even noticed that it’s not a firearm. And to her substantial credit, Ms. Williams isn’t offering it, either.

    Cool story.


    • Kevin Wilmeth,

      Yes, cool. Not the smartest, but cool. Read the post and saw the video,…she kept pulling the sling over the manometer/gauge. Maybe nervous? Yea, I think she was “in the know” ane was enjoying her “5 minutes”.

      Good for her, and good post. She used what she had. Airgun or not, a well placed shot, or even a poorly placed one,…would put a hurtin’ on the burglers.


  6. Even granting Gunfun1’s point, it seems like pumps have not quite reached the age of interchangeability. I will be interested to see the testing for the sweet spot of power adjustment in view of all of my reloading for the M1. While Matt61 ammunition is now close to perfect in terms of manufacture (thanks to the bullet comparator), matching the ammunition to the gun is a whole different thing wherein I am a novice. As I recall, you just go up the power range for a given bullet and weight and powder in increments and see by trial and error what is the most accurate. There are a few other things like measuring the chamber length and selecting bullet weight for your twist rate and maybe chronographing, but it seems to be essentially a trial and error process. The only other tip I’ve heard was from Clint Fowler who said that if your group has vertical stringing, you have too little gas, and if your group has horizontal stringing, you have too much gas. He was referring to adjustments to his gas system. However, I suppose you could adapt this principle to varying the amount of powder for a given bullet. And in airguns the analogy would be more direct with the amount of air. I wonder if anyone else has heard of interpreting groups this way.

    Michael, the only part I remember about Eli Wallach’s gun examination is how he rolled various cylinders in his hands to find which one he wanted. Was that his version of a no-go test? 🙂 A more thematic question I’ve had about that movie is why he is the Ugly. None of the main three were beauties. And if you want ugly, the worst was Clint doing his long march in the sun as part of Wallach’s reprisal. Those outbreaks on his face were really gross. Extreme thirst is supposed to be truly agonizing.

    But perhaps Ugly does not really refer to looks. It’s more like the phrase “wins ugly” to mean improvisational and kind of wild. Isn’t Wallach’s introductory scene about him smashing through a window in some disarray?

    Matt61


    • Matt61
      Search “male foster fitting” on the Pyramyd Air home page and check out all the fiitings, hoses and adapters that come up for HPA ( high pressure air ) use.

      A person could rig up a lot of different setups if you got in mind what you want to do and check out what’s available.


    • From what ive read you would want to select the bullet for what you want to accomplish then adjust the powder to an accurate load. If long range target a midweight boattail, hunting a flatpoint, etc, want flat over short range a lightweight, close range big game heavy, close small light, long range small light or mid weight deer mid, so on and so on. Unless your trying to slow it down start at max load then work down the powder. If no load gets it accurate try another weight bullet in the range of weight for your purpose and try again. Or same weight different brand… its a headache if you dont find it before the fun of that particular mission runs out, that’s why most people just go through a few factory loads and take the best they can get.


    • Matt61,

      If you watch the original movie trailer, it identifies Clint Eastwood as “The Good,” Eli Wallach as “The Bad,” and Lee Van Cleef as “The Ugly.”

      I’d have to look at the scene again, but I remember it being as follows: Tuco immediately rejects the last Colt’s cylinder by removing it and putting it aside. He then examines, as you describe, the cylinder of the Colt Root and puts it on the action of the Navy. Then he reaches over to the first Colt put on the table, removes its barrel and loading lever, peers through the barrel and then assembles his “Frankencolt,” rotating its cylinder and listening to the clicks, a sound which he then shares with the shopkeeper.

      Michael


  7. Hi Tom, what did you mean when you said “but nobody makes an adapter to go from the Air Arms adapter to an industry standard Foster quick disconnect adapter.”? Wouldn’t this (http://www.airgunsource.com/ninja-high-pressure-stainless-steel-female-quick-disconnect/dp/1758) or this (http://www.airgunsource.com/male-quick-disconnect-coupler-1-8%E2%80%9D-bsp/dp/2160) fit on the adapter, considering the threads are correct? You would just choose the male or the female one depending on what you currently have attached to your hose, no?

    Thanks
    Henry


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