By Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
My .22 caliber Crosman 180 is the second variation.
This report covers:
- Testing the gun as it sits
- Warmup
- Low power
- Why just 5 shots?
- High power
- Power adjusted higher
- Low power 2
- High power 2
- Power increased again
- High power 3
- Low power 3
- Shot count
- The cooling effect
- Trigger pull
- Summary
This old Crosman 180 is like an air rifle I have never seen before. Even though I have owned it for about 30 years, I have never really shot it that much. I certainly haven’t tested it like I’m about to!
I was faced with both adjustable power and two power settings, which makes the test infinitely complex. So, instead of testing three different pellets, I only used .22 caliber Crosman Premiers. When you see how complex this test is, you will appreciate why I did that.
Testing the gun as it sits
Initially I shot the gun as it was already adjusted. As I recalled, it shot Premiers at around 525 f.p.s. on high power in the past. I really didn’t know what low power was doing, so that was where I started. The CO2 cartridge that was in the gun from Part 1 was still pretty full, so I started with it.
Warmup
Some air rifles have to be exercised a few times before they settle down and start performing like they should. We see this in spring guns, PCPs and, although I have not noticed it in a CO2 gun before, I suppose they are like anything else. This rifle hasn’t been shot that much in the past 20 years, so it probably has a right to need a warmup. I didn’t plan on warming it up, but the chronograph told me it was necessary. Look at the first several shots.
Shot………..Velocity
1………………302
2………………285
3………………339
4………………377
5………………417
6………………426
7………………436
8………………434
Low power
The velocity seems to have stabilized at shot 7, so I now shot a 5-shot string. The low was 432 and the high was 451 f.p.s. The average was 440 f.p.s., so I think that’s where the rifle wants to shoot on low power. The spread was 19 f.p.s.
Why just 5 shots?
I’m shooting 5-shot strings today because I’m testing a CO2 rifle that uses a cartridge. At some point while I shoot it will fall off the pressure curve and mess up my test. The shorter strings give me more opportunity to test different things with less chance of a problem. If there is anything I want to know with greater certainty I can always shoot more shots.
High power
This first high-power test was also with the gun as it was adjusted. I fired 5 shots. The low was 513 f.p.s. and the high was 533 f.p.s., for an average of 523 f.p.s. The spread was 20 f.p.s. That is pretty much how I remember the rifle shooting.
Power adjusted higher
Now I inserted an Allen wrench and turned the power adjustment screw in (clockwise) many turns. I never came to a stop after 10 complete turns and I didn’t want to ruin anything, so I stopped and tested it set that way.
Low power 2
The average for 5 shots on low power now was 492 f.p.s. The low was 488 and the high was 498 f.p.s. Two things about this string. First, the average velocity has increased by 52 f.p.s. But also the spread of the string decreased from 19 f.p.s. to 10 f.p.s. The rifle became faster and also more consistent. As it is now set, this 180 is more powerful on low power than my Diana 27 (its average with Premiers is 442 f.p.s.). Since low power has to give more shots per cartridge than high, this may be a very good setting!
High power 2
Next I tested the rifle with 5 shots on high power. The average was 532 f.p.s. and the spread went from a low of 530 to a high of 537 f.p.s. Again the power increased, though only by 10 f.p.s. And again the rifle became more stable with a spread of just 7 f.p.s., compared to 20 f.p.s. before the power adjustment.
Power increased again
I was on a roll, so why stop now? Unfortunately, the next test showed me why. I adjusted the power up again and tested the rifle on low power. I won’t show the average, for reasons that will be obvious.
Shot………..Velocity
1………………496
2………………507
3………………484
4………………486
5………………476
6………………464
It’s pretty obvious the rifle has exhausted all the liquid CO2 in this string and is running on the remaining gas. In other words, we have reached the limit. There were exactly 30 shots fired in this test before the power started to drop. I don’t know how many shots were on the cartridge when the test started. And, since I don’t know how many shots were on the rifle at the start, I still don’t have a good shot count.
I dry-fired the rifle on high power 10 times and exhausted the remainder of the gas. Then I installed a new CO2 cartridge and started testing again on high power.
High power 3
On high power at this latest power adjustment the average for 5 shots was 537 f.p.s. The spread went from a low of 535 to a high of 541 f.p.s., so 6 f.p.s. difference. The rifle hasn’t gained much velocity, but it’s a trifle more consistent (6 f.p.s. versus 7 f.p.s. before the change). It’s really too close to call.
Low power 3
On low power, though, the results are very different. The average has increased to 526 f.p.s. for 5 shots. The spread goes from a low of 523 to a high of 528 f.p.s., so just 5 f.p.s. The 180 is now nearly as powerful on low power as it is on high power. We can look at that two different ways. Either I have found the sweet spot for the lower power range or I have lost the two-power capability of the rifle altogether. I like the first explanation — as in the cup is half full.
Shot count
Now that the power is set so that both levels are close, I can do a realistic shot count. I started with the 10 shots on the cartridge that were shown above. Then I fired 10 more blank shots on low power. Then I gave the rifle a rest to warm back up. I ate my lunch at this time, so it was about 45 minutes. At shot 21 it registered 525 f.p.s. Then 9 more blanks at low power, followed by a 5-minute warmup. At shot 31 it registered 488 f.p.s. That’s a definite drop from the 520s, so I fired just 5 more blank shots, then gave the rifle 10 minutes to warm up. If it’s just slow from cooling, shot 36 will be the same as or faster than 488 f.p.s. If it’s really loosing pressure it will be significantly slower. Shot 36 registered 434 f.p.s., so the rifle is definitely off the power curve with this cartridge.
As I remember, this 180 gave me about 35 good shots in the past, so I’m about where I have always been. I could easily shoot to 40 shots, though past 25 yards I would notice the pellets striking lower after shot number 30. I like where this one is now performing on the lower power setting, and that is how I plan to shoot it from now on.
The cooling effect
Many CO2 guns have a cooling effect from the gas that lowers the velocity as they are fired. This 180 doesn’t seem to have one. I took about 20 seconds between shots because this is a single shot and also because I was hand-recording each velocity, but with that I never noticed any decrease from cooling.
Trigger pull
I told you that this 180 has the very fine and very adjustable Crosman trigger, and I have it set exactly as I like it. It’s two stages, but I can’t feel the hesitation at stage 2, so in effect it feels like a single-stage. I have the overtravel set to stop the trigger at the moment of sear release, which feels perfect. The trigger breaks at 2 lbs. 2 oz. I have tested finer air rifle triggers, for sure, but never on an airgun that costs under $400.
Summary
There are probably a host of other things I could have done but didn’t in this test. What I was going for was a solid baselining of the rifle, which I think I got. Heavier pellets will shoot slower and lighter pellets will go faster. Since this is a compressed gas gun heavier pellets won’t be that much slower and lighter pellets won’t be that much faster — that’s the nature of pneumatics and gas guns.
I’m ready to test the accuracy next.
B.B.,
Not surprised that it needed some warming up. Unused for several years some dirt probably had to be blown out of where it was sticking the mechanism up before it could perform. Setting 2 is most likely the sweet spot for this 180. By the time you have adjusted it at setting 3 the spring is probably all let out this allowing no difference between the low power and high power setting. I trust that you will be doing the accuracy testing on setting 2.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Yes, that is my plan.
B.B.
BB,
I would think you might want to back off just a little on the power setting so as to have more of a difference between high and low power, although now you do have a pretty tight spread.
BB,
As for a laminated stock being more cost effective today, it can be if you compare it to a nice grade of walnut. It also depends on how the stock is shaped, such as with a FWB300 which has a very fragile stock. Even a plain laminate like this 180 has would be much stronger.
RR,
Oh! I forgot! I was supposed to show the laminations today!
Oh, well! Next time!
B.B.
A couple of my Crosman 2400KTs that use CO2 also start off slow and gradually “warm up” to a higher velocity, occasionally making the second 10-shot string faster than the first. Interesting to see the hammer spring adjust on an older gun; I think the Crosman 2300s is the only modern gun that offers that.
HiveSeeker,
If you are fond of the 2400KT, you owe it to yourself to seek out a really nice Crosman Mark I.
Michael
B.B.,
Forgetting to show the laminations is like leaving something behind when you visit a friend. It’s your subconscious providing an excuse to go back. :^)
The compactness and sturdy “bulldog profile” of the 180 has always appealed to me. And these 180s have almost as much thump as one can get from any production-line CO2 air gun. The Hammerli 850 provides perhaps just a tiny bit more (and is an excellent air rifle — I have one in .177), but there is nothing like a genuine classic. The 180, especially your second variant with the adjustable trigger and trigger-guard safety, is from Crosman’s zenith of design and quality, their Golden Age.
And what a golden age it was! The 180, along with the 150, 167, 338, 600, 38C, 38T, Mark I, SA-6, Crosman/Hahn 45 and 1861 Shiloh are quite an impressive bunch of CO2 air guns for one company to have produced during a couple decades. (I left out an equal to each of these, the Crosman CK92 only as it was made in Italy by Kimar.) One could do well to collect just the air guns I just listed.
In a practical, vermin-eradicating role, the 180 2nd variant is the obvious champion of them, too, a great piece to start that collection.
Michael
What is the advantage of a trigger stop ? I would think that hitting a wall would be similar to jerking the trigger, but in miniature.
John,
If the sear has already been released, what else is there for a trigger to do except return to its uncocked position? A trigger stop might eliminate overtravel in the second stage and shorten the time for the trigger to return.
Michael
John
It gives you a more precise feel of when the shot goes off.
You set the stop so as soon as the shot goes off the trigger moves no more.
And some guns it’s a bit of a a way to tune in your hold technique if you use trigger follow through.
Best I can say is that I think if you ever get to shoot a gun with a trigger stop I think you would like it.
John,
I don’t know what the official purpose of a trigger stop is but I find that having one keeps me from moving the gun as much while the projectile is still moving down the barrel. I have found that it makes the most difference in bb guns (which tend to have low velocities) and in lower powered pellet guns because it is a relatively long time after sear release before the projectile is out of the barrel and no longer under the influence of gun movement. I also think that triggers with high pull weights cause you to jerk the gun because you are squeezing so hard then suddenly there’s no resistance. With a stop you are squeezng exactly as you were before release, it’s just against the stop now. I believe that Gunfun1 is right when he predicts that you would like one if you ever fired a gun equipped with one. It doesn’t cost anything to try one. Just fold up a small piece of paper and stick it behind your trigger with a piece of tape. Remove paper if the trigger can’t move enough to release the sear, add a little more if you still get trigger movement after the release. It doesn’t even have to be neat If you’re just trying it out. It will work well enough for long enough for you to see if you like it and want to put the effort into doing it permanently. My 2 cents, hope it helped.
B.B.,
Do you know if the Discovery, Maximus, and Wildfire share the same compression tube? I know that aftermarket regulators are available for the Discovery and Maximus. It seems to me that one would make a dramatic improvement in a Wildfire.
Michael
Michael,
I doubt very much they do. The Marauder is rated to 3000 psi. The Wildfire is rated to 2000. The difference in cost for reservoir tubing for those two different ratings is too great for Crosman to ignore.
B.B.
B.B.,
No, no. Not the Marauder. The Maximus, Discovery and Wildfire.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael,
Oops!
Yes, they are probably the same. Makes sense they would be.
B.B.
B.B.,
There are goshdarnnitall too many different models to keep track of. Believe me, I know! :^)
Michael
Michael
Discovery and Maximus does share the same air resivoir tube. That is what you mean by the compression tube right?
The Wild Fire is a different tube on the back side where it goes into the receiver. And the 1077 tube is the same on the backside as the Wild Fire. But it has a different valve block that that has the Co2 piercing pin and seat for the Co2 cartridge. And of course the 1077 front side of the tube is threaded for the piercing end cap. The Wild Fire has the foster fitting on the muzzle end of the tube.
And the Marauder tube is different and bigger diameter than the others mentioned. So no on the Marauder tube.
Hope I didn’t jumble that up to much. But that’s it.
Gunfun1,
Yes, I mean the air reservoir tube. What I REALLY am wondering is if an aftermarket regulator for the Discovery/Maximus would work in a Wildfire.
Michael
Michael
Ah now that’s interesting. I never thought about internally regulating a Maximus or Discovery or Wild Fire for that matter.
From what I seen on my Wild Fire I would say yes a internal regulator from a Discovery or Maximus would work in the Wild Fire. They are the same diameter tubes and should butt right up against the valve block.
Of course that would reduce some volume in the already short Wild Fire air resivoir tube. But the regulator should make up for it and still increase the shot count.
I like your idea a lot. If you find a regulator ror the Maximus or Discovery post a link. I would be interested in one for my Maximus and Wild Fire to try.
I would have to take the 1077 Co2 tube off though and put my Original Wild Fire tube back on though. Don’t know if you remember that I converted the Wild Fire to Co2 with a 1077 tube and parts when I got rid of some of my PCP stuff.
Michael
I see BB took your link you posted from the other air gun company.
The regulator is made by Huma air regulators.
But anyway here is something that I seen when I was reading the instructions for installing in a Discovery.
“11. You can adjust the hammer spring tension. When you are testing/adjusting your rifle using a
chronograph, please remember to take sufficient time between the shots for the regulator to recharge
the regulated chamber volume.”
So the regulator would work in the Wild Fire I’m sure. But might not be good for rapid fire according to the instructions to give the regulator a chance to recharge as they say. But I bet you probably wouldn’t even notice when rapid fire plinking. I think it would do fine in the Wild Fire.
I can’t fault anyone for removing it. P.A. does pay the rent around here, after all. :^)
Michael
Michael
Yep I know. But it’s a bummer that good information can’t be shared freely.
That’s why I try to post links directly from a manufacturer of that paticular product instead of from suppliers like PA and such.
Michael
Well I just ordered one for my Maximus.
Thanks for bringing the subject up.
GF1,
The reason I haven’t purchased a Wildfire is that the shot velocity drops quite a bit with every single shot. I’d like a consistent string, even if that means the Wildfire has slightly less velocity for the first, say, ten shots than it would have stock.
The High Pressure Huma models are adjustable from 100 to 170 BAR. The Standard Power ones adjust from 70 – 150 BAR. Their Low Power “Universal” (which means custom shop, machined for your air gun) regulators can be set from 60 to 110 BAR or from 70 – 150 BAR. For a Wildfire, wouldn’t that mean I would want the 60 – 110 BAR regulator?
It also seems to me that the “recharging” of the regulator between shots is faster the lower the pressure the unit is set for.
Michael
Michael
If it was me I would go for 70 bar.
That’s a little over 1000 psi. I think that would still give you a good shot count with good velocity.
Michael
Oh and yes probably would give that faster recharge to balance the regulator out between shots.
Michael
Here is direct link to the company that makes them. They are not direct competition to PA so the link should be ok I think.
https://www.huma-air.com
BB,
When you say you fired blank shots I assume you mean without a pellet. It seems to me that the valve would act differently without the back pressure that would normally be created between it and pellet, skewing the shot count. I usually chrony my co2 guns with a light, a medium and a heavy pellet from a fresh cartridge to the point were the liquid is clearly flashed off.( I use the same method to determine that as you did, so I’m happy to see that I was thinking right on that point.) I seem to remember that the shape of the shot curve changed with the pellet weight, with the heavier pellet giving the most shots. I don’t think they were necessarily the greatest number of useful shots, just the most shots ’til the liquid was gone. Since your results here match your memory of the shot count you got in the past, you have me second guessing my results. Have you ever witnessed this?
Halfstep,
I have to agree with your reasoning. But I do this for two reasons that I think are sound. First, as you note, the results I get align with what I already know about the gun. With or without pellets the numbers come out the same. Second, I observe the CO2 gas creating a vapor at the muzzle with the blank shots. It seems just as pronounced with or without a pellet.
I imagine if we conducted a really well-controlled test, that the shot count might actually differ by a shot or two. But the savings in time for me is too great to overlook.
B.B.
BB,
I hear you! I enjoy finally being able to fill my time with stuff like this, though. For the last twenty years before I retired I worked way too many 70 and 80 hour weeks. Also, I’m still trying to learn, through personal experience, many of the things that I’m sure you already know in your sleep. I’m enjoying the journey and just need some reassurance, some times, that I’m still on the right path,so thanks for responding.
Halfstep
You spend any shooting time with your Diana stormrider?
GF1,
Got sidetracked today by a chance to go to a buddy’s farm to shoot firearms. So I’ve been burning up a brick of .22s in my Browning Lever Rifle. Raining through the night and tomorrow so I may do some indoor chrony work with the stormrider tomorrow.
Halfstep
Sounds like you had a fun day.
And yes k on the stormrider.
But darn everytime I get a new gun I’m all into it. Just got to know what it’s about. You know what I mean. 🙂
Halfstep,
Noticed the lowercase “s” did a lot of searches and still found no one else talking about it.
For anyone else my comment has to do with the badge on the stormrider, the one BB is reviewing says “DIANA Stormrider”, Halfstep’s says “DIANA stormrider”.
Small thing but it is one of those things that makes you go hum? what is up with that?
Mike
Airgun Depot just put up a new ad for a gun and scope combo and the photo they are using has a capitalized gun.
BB said in part 1 of the Stormrider review;
“Fill port is exposed
On the flip side, Diana gets a slap on the wrist for leaving the fill port hole open and exposed. There is no cap to cover it. That can be remedied with a simple piece of Delrin, machined to fit through the port hole that goes through the end cap. Either that or something else is needed to cover that hole.”
Halfstep if you have your stormrider handy does it have a fill port cover?
If it does then I think Diana put out a pre production unit, the Stormrider for review and corrected some issues that the reviewers mentioned, then released the stormrider. If not, well I do not know.
Mike
Mike In Atl,
There is no cover or plug and the instructions warn you to make sure the ” fill adapter and filler (probe and port) are clean from dirt. sic
I will be turning a cap with an Oring inside it to provide a snug fit over the end of the tube. I’ll drill a hole through the cap’s side that will align with the fill hole so I can just twist it to cover or expose the port
So much for that theory, do not see why they did not do that in the first place.
I have seen some other guns that have that very same protection of the fill port. Simple, cheap and effective.
Looking forward to your experience with the stormrider.
Let us know what you think as you get to know your new rifle.
Mike,
Will do, and I saw that same protective cap on other guns,too. That’s how I was able to “invent it”. 😉
BB
I like this little gun your testing. I wish they still had that system on the 2260.
Michael
Thank you much. I bookmarked the links.
And you know those regulators should slip right into a .22 Marauder pistol and a Crosman 1720T. And I’m probably forgetting others that have similar diameter tubes too.
But definitely going to check into getting one for sure. If it works out in my Maximus I might get one for my Wild Fire too.
GF1,
I checked it out. What did that figure out to in U.S. dollars, with shipping? What do you think of it for my PCP Maximus? If there is 2 models, which do you think would be good? Anxious to see how yours does.
Chris
I’m emailing you a link right now of the one I ordered today for my Maximus.
GF1,
Thanks. I will check it out in the AM most likely.
Chris
I also attached the PDF file of the installation instructions and how to adjust the regulator with the link for where I ordered it from.
It’s a USA air gun company. I should have mine in 2-3 days it said by USPS. It was a $115 plus $11 and some change for shipping.
And to me that’s money well worth it. Especially now that I’m hand pumping. I want as many usable shots per fill as possible now. When I had the Shoebox I didn’t care.
And I almost bought another 3000 psi HPA Air Venturi bottle that’s regulated at around 1200 psi like I had on it when I first got the Maximus. I have it on my QB79 and it gets a ridiculous shot count on it. But the bottle is to bulky and awkward to mount on the Maximus. So this internal regulator is just the ticket I’m looking for now.
B.B.,
I received my first P.A. catalog in quite a long time,1 year?. I was beginning to think that this was a pay to play deal as I have not ordered anything in quite awhile. I see you have 4 feature articles in it. Yes, you have done them before, but I do not recall 4. Is this something that is required of you?,.. or is it a reformatted blog article? Is all of that work up to you to do? All seem to be related to a past blog.
I am just curious to maybe get a peek “behind the curtain” in a day in the life of an airgun writing legend.
Chris
Chris
I probably shouldn’t be answering this. But from what I remember Edith did the catalogs. And yes I could tell that things changed after her passing.
And another reason I miss her.
I hope BB isn’t mad I answered. And maybe he can tell more of how the catalog transpired.
GF1,
I know cost are involved, but I always was sure to pass any extra catalogs along to whomever I could. That ought to be worth something to P.A.. Plus,.. I think sometimes us ol’ timers prefer to just sit down and look through a catalog with the morning cup of coffee on the weekend.
I can only guess to the extent/depth of Edith’s involvement,… but suffice it to say that once something got in her radar,… things happened!
Chris
It’s kind of funny you bring this up about handing catalogs out. I almost posted this earlier but decided not too.
But we had our annual insurance update going on at work Wednesday and Thursday. Well when I went in for my turn to talk to the person at one of the 5 tables after talking about things it was time to sign papers. He saw I was left handed. Then he goes I’m right handed but left eye dominant and that’s why I shoot my pistol competition left handed.
I go really. I’m left handed but right eye dominant and shoot my guns right handed. We talked more and found he competition shoots centerfire pistol long range iron sights and rimfire .22 pistol silhouette. He was retired and was doing the insurance job for something to do.
But I told him about the PCP air guns and shrouds and a bunch of other air gun related stuff. And went out to my car and gave him my last PA catalog I had. But he was happy we talked and I told him about the PA site and the blog. He said he would definitely check out the site and guns.
But I thought it was cool that we ended up at the same table and found we had similar likes. Had a good time talking with him even though it was a short time.
But yes agree need more catalogs to distribute.
GF1,
Oooops on the last reply. It started a new thread. At any rate,.. a quick check of my catalog inventory revealed that I have 6 through 12 volumes, only missing 7. So,… I guess that they (do) cater to their customers after all. I do remember getting 3 and 4 of the (same) volume over a several months,.. usually after an order. Those, I was happy to pass on. I guess that the releases are timed to what is currently on the market, be it 3-6 or 9 months.
Chris
I don’t remember what issue it was that I described the front cover.
What is on the cover of the one you just got?
GF1,
The one you described was Volume 8. The latest 12 shows a guy holding a Umarex Gauntlet. You are “out of the loop” dude! Heck, for as much as you buy,.. they ought to be sending you hard bound copies and signed by the head honcho himself!
Chris
Probably 5 orders in the last couple months.
No new catalog since the one I described.
Seriously.
GF1,
They (always) sent one with (every) order. Maybe cutbacks? I don’t know. I am just happy to get mine.
Chris
And how come me and you are the only ones commenting.
Guess everyone else is on vacation tonight.
GF1
I too am left handed but right eye dominant. I learned to shoot shotguns and rifles right handed at an early age. I also learned to shoot a bow left handed for the same reason.
Geo
Same for me except for bow and arrow, well and a slingshot. I still shoot them right handed too.
But you know what’s funny. I can throw or catch a ball left or right handed.
Chris,
Yes I write the articles and yes, it’s part of my deal.
And yes, I get some of them from blogs, but they all are rewritten.
B.B.
B.B.,
I just read all 4 and they are all excellent,.. as usual. I can se a lot of similarities to the blog style and format, but I can also see that in having to put it into a somewhat condensed form,.. you have to make every word and sentence count.
In fact, of the many catalogs that I have given away over the years,.. the receiver was always floored by what is out there in the air gun market today. Moreover, they always commented on how much they liked (and learned from) the articles which often led to furthering the air gun discussion. Firearm shooters sometimes don’t realize that the same principles apply to air guns,.. just on a somewhat smaller scale. I will add,.. that is (if) the firearm shooter knows anything at all about the principals of shooting and ballistics. A surprising amount do not.
Chris
Chris USA, I order from PA all the time and it’s been probably a year since I got a catalog either. The shipping slip always says 1 Pyramyd AIR Catalog as one of the items but it’s never in there anymore. 🙁
Halfstep
Same here on the shipping slip.
GF1,
Good story. If they send me one, they had better send 2. Because (I am keeping one) and the other happy to give away. I am reminded of all of the stories about people having old catalogs and using them as a point of reference of days past. I have a small collection, but P.A. seems to be hindering the furthering of that,.. at least until today’s mail.
Chris
I have not got one in some time.
Wonder what catalog you got. The last one I got had some revolvers on the cover with a old latern if I remember right.
Did you get something different this time?
GF1,
It’s almost 10:00 PM and I just got the mail out of my box and guess what was in it! Yours will probably come any day now.
Halfstep
I do hope so. We’ll see.
GF1,
I read both attachments regarding the regulator for the Maximus. I have seen that in the past, probably from you and doing something to a Discovery. This looks worthwhile, but a bit steep at 115 plus S/H.
At any rate,.. (How do you go about deciding what to set it at?)
– Do you factor in what the gun currently chronys at?
– For example, say I fill to 2000. Shoot 30 shots. Note shot string fps and ALSO note the reservoir pressure along the way. Do I chose a pressure setting that is at the top end of my “sweet range”?
– Or, do I shoot for accuracy and note the reservoir pressure along the way, then set the reg. for the “sweet spot” based on accuracy?
– You mentioned before about filling to 2,500, I think. That did not work due to partial valve lock. 2000 seemed to be the best. With a reg., can a higher fill be used with no ill effects?
Installation looks simple enough, but I do not want to get into repeated tear downs either, just to readjust. There was also a brief mention of enlarging the transfer port. I am assuming? it is a similar set up to the M-rod. My M-rod is stock on the port, but I figure that it might be worth a try on the Maximus if I am going to have it on the bench anyways.
So,… I get one. Then what? How do I decide what to set it at?
Oh, one more thing,… since I have the 2 gauges on my Guppy tank, I suppose that I good hook up the gun, (tank valve closed) and take advantage of the 2″ gauge that reads reservoir pressure with much more precise markings? That is assuming that I will be paying attention at all to what the reservoir pressure as the gun currently is.
Thanks ahead for any help/answers. Chris
Chris
Here is the pressure I will set the regulator at on my Maximus when I install it. 1100 psi.
There’s two reasons I’m choosing that psi. First reason is I know the poi starts falling off when I shoot longer distances like 100 yards with my gun at a little over 1000 psi. So I want the regulator to stay above that psi. That’s why I’m choosing 1100 psi. Plus that will give the most shot count because that’s where the gun can still shoot on poi and still use the least amount of air.
The other reason I know that 1100 psi will work is I had that regulated Air Venturi bottle on my Maximus in the beginning. What was cool about that set up is I could watch the gauge on the Air Venturi bottle drop as I shot the gun. But the gauge on the Maximus would always show 1100 psi. But if I continued to shoot the gauge on the Maximus would start dropping along with the gauge on the Air Venturi bottle. So at that spot that means your off the regulator. In other words under 1100 psi you would see the gauge on the gun dropping. And of course that’s where I could see my poi start dropping at longer distances. And I keep mentioning longer distances. The reason I say is because at distances like 50 yards and in I wouldn’t see the poi drop yet till like 900 psi. I shoot also at longer distances with it so I want it set at the spot where I know poi won’t drop at longer distances. Again that’s why 1100 psi.
And when you read the installation instructions you noticed there was 2 ways to put it in. With or without the Maximus gauge. Well I’m choosing the way with the Maximus gauge.
The reason for that is like when I mentioned above that I had the Air Venturi bottle on my Maximus. Well I knew what I filled the bottle up by the gauge on the bottle and the gauge on my hand pump. The gauge on the Maximus always shows the regulated pressure. So that way I can see if I have the regulator where I want it. That being the 1100 psi. If it shows up below that 1100 psi that means your off the regulator and it’s time to fill the gun. So that’s why the gauge from the Maximus will stay when I put the regulator in my Maximus.
Now if the regulator ends up showing under 1100 ps or over 1100 psi I will probably take the gun back apart to readjust the regulator and put back together and see what happens. But if I’m like 1000 over say like 1200 psi I’ll probably leave it alone. But if I’m under 1100 psi I will take it back out and bump the regulater up to try to get at or a little above 1100 psi. I don’t want it shooting the whole resivoir under as you call it the sweet spot. I would rather be over that sweet spot a little than be under any amount and the gun not be on it’s full potential.
And no I will not mess with the transfer port opening it up and I won’t do anything with the striker spring. It’s all good as it is. My .22 Maximus is very accurate from about 2200 psi down to the 1100 psi.
And that brings up the last thing. I might fill to 2500 psi with the regulator since it’s a little over the 2200 I fill to now. But more than likely I will just stay at a 2200 psi fill. Remember my whole purpose is to not have to pump as much. So 2500 would just increase my pump time some.
Phew that took a while. Hope I got it all. 🙂
GF1,
So, if I have right,.. I want to shoot until I see the POI drop off noticeably and then set the reg. slightly above what the gauge says at that point?
I went back and looked at notes and found some data on 15.89’s and 18.13’s. I was noting the fps and fill pressure every 5 shots.
2000 fill, 15.89’s, 1) 806 fps/2000 psi.,……..18.13’s 1) 765/2000
20) 785/1320 20) 740/1200
25) 749/1125 25) 691/950
30) 692/900 30) 618/750
The 18.13’s used air faster, but I shoot 15.89’s anyways. So,.. from that, it looks like my set point to be around 1200 and get about 25 good shots. If I fill higher, I could get more shots.
As for any accuracy testing vs shot count,.. I did do 30 in 1″ at 50 yards with the 15.89’s. By 34, the POI definitely dropped. If I was going to go hard core and do it again, I would back the test down to 40, 35 or maybe even 30. Maybe even do the 1 shot per bull method as well.
Well, that did not quite work out. 🙁 I was trying to save vertical blog space. At any rate, the readings to the right are for the 18.13’s.
Chris
And my answer below was based on the JSB 15.89’s too.
My Maximus did not like the JSB 18.1’s
Chris
Yes you do have it right.
And your shot fps to psi is pretty much how mine looked. So that 1125 psi at 749 fps is what I would call the lowest I would go.
So basically around that 1100 psi I was talking about setting my regulator at.
Which thinking more about it I will set mine at 1200 psi when I install it in the Maximus. Basically that way it should be always above the poi fall off point. And that way shouldn’t have to take the gun apart again to readjust the regulator.
So 1200 psi it will be for my regulator too.
GF1,
It has been about everything I can do not to order the repeating breech kit for the Maximus. Now I am thinking regulator. That budget friendly Maximus is looking to be a money pit. Don’t get me wrong, it is 100% excellent as is. Looks, feel, weight and accuracy are all there. It might be worth it.
Hey, I need a Winter project anyways,… right? I have been “good” too. I have not bought anything in quite awhile. It’s past due time,… right? Plus,.. a magazine would help to keep track of shot count as well,… right? The regulator will surely improve groups too,… right? Right?
My infamous “steel resolve” seems to be fading. Oh no! 🙁
Chris
Well I think you just talked yourself into a regulator and a repeater kit. 😉
And you really like that repeater stuff don’t you. I don’t like the repeater’s. I want single shot or I want a semi-auto. One way or the other. Nothing inbetween.
Plus to me with a repeater and semi-auto for that fact it makes me shoot to fast. Plus more variables that could go wrong with the shot. And again a big thing now is I’m hand pumping. I want my shots to last as long as possible before I have to pump the gun up again.
And that’s probably why I will leave my Wild Fire Co2. I was thinking about putting the PCP air resivoir back on and one of these Huma regulators in it. But thinking more about it. I will just leave it Co2. Probably not worth the extra cost of the regulator and pumping it again. Just to easy to throw a 12 gram Co2 cartridge in and shoot when I do get the urge to shoot it.
But on the other hand i am exited to put the internal Huma regulator in the Maximus. I do think it’s a good choice. And if it does fail it’s easy enough to take back out.
GF1,
Yes, I do like repeaters (magazine/drum like the M-rod). It is nice to not have to fumble with a pellet for each shot. Yes, it does allow for faster shooting. I think it also helps to keep me in the “zone” better by not having to come up off the rifle for each shot.
I did look at the BNM repeating breech more and one thing I did not realize was that it appears the barrel will be raised. Duh 🙁 I am not sure, but I think all the kits are meant to be used with added shrouds, which also means a new barrel band. I did not plan to add a shroud. Even if they did sell just the breech, then at least a new (taller) barrel band would be required to make up for the increased spread from air tube center (to) barrel center. Or, leave it hang out there, 23 3/4″. Their site leaves a lot to be desired on product description and applications. I did watch their 2 videos. Super easy to do.
I also looked at the TKO moderators. They do quiet it a lot from the videos and have the “cool” factor to boot. Since I have the Hunter version, I would make up something on my own, but have yet to find anything with a 1/2-20 female thread that I can use for a starting point. If you remember, the cap body would (not) come off,.. just the final cap that has that 1/2-20 thread. Noise is a non issue for me but it would be good for hunting so as to minimize spooking of prey from shot to shot.
Anxious to see how your regulator does. Me, I am not sure what I am going to do. The regulator might be the best bang for the buck, should improve accuracy even more as well as increase shot count per fill.
Chris
Yep I checked out the BNM site throughout time.
What interests me on their site is the .25 caliber kit for the Discovery or Maximus. I could see me getting another Maximus then putting the.25 caliber kit on it. I would for sure put a Huma regulator in it too. And on that gun I would for sure open up the transfer port orifice. I have thought about that many times. I still may do that at some point in time.
And yep will let you know how the regulator goes. I think it will be great. The only thing that I can see happening is it could get a slow leak. That will make me mad if that happens. I sure don’t want to grab the gun the next day to shoot and it’s out of air. That’s the only thing in the back of my mind that bothers me about the regulator.
Chris
And I should rephrase that.
I do like a single action or dual action revolver.
GF1,
I am curious as to why you think a .25 kit would work on a Maximus. I see that P.A. sells replacement M-rod valves,.. and the .177 and .22 are the same valve. The .25 is a different valve. I would think that the .22 Maximus valve would (not) be able to dump enough air at once to propel a .25 pellet properly. Somewhere along climbing the ladder of calibers,.. I would think that the valve/valve internals must change as well.
Then again, I believe the Air Force line allows barrel/caliber changes (with the bolt, I think) without valve changes. So,.. maybe I am thinking wrong. Thoughts?
Chris
I had .25 caliber Marauder valves in .177 Marauders and .177 Marauder valves in .25 Marauders. Seen absalutly no difference in performance.
GF1,
Well, that is certainly interesting. It almost seems that there is some sort of “self-leveling/compensating” effect going on there. If more is needed, more is given. While I do have the same mod. experience as you, I did note (above) that the 18.13’s used more air than the 15.89’s,.. from the same gun with the same fill. Perhaps that somewhat supports that theory?
Chris
The .25 Marauder valve is a different part number than the .177 and .22 Marauder valves. And the .25 Marauder valves were anodized gold and the .177 and .22 valves were natural aluminum color.
But like I said. No difference in performance. The .25 uses a bigger inside diameter transfer port orifice so that’s how it’s probably able to get more air flow to the valve.
And back to the .25 Maximus conversion. Of course it’s not going to push that bigger diameter heavier .25 caliber pellet as fast as a .22 Maximus. Just like the .22 Maximus isn’t going to shoot as fast as a .177 Maximus.
Same for springers or multi-pumps and Co2 guns.
They are only going to shoot as fast as physics will allow.
GF1,
I guess that my point was that yes,.. it will push a .25 and yes,.. it will not push it as fast as a .22. But,.. could it be pushed harder with a different valve. That was the point. Maybe a .25 kit is asking more of the valve that what would otherwise be ideal.
It goes back to the “just because I can” mentality. I suppose that you could put a .45 cal. barrel on a Maximus, but is the valving best set up for a .45?
Chris
Right. You can cheat physics so to speak by making the transfer port orfice inside diameter bigger. But it still only going to flow so much. It might pick the velocity up. But probably not much.
And I was expecting the BNM .25 conversion for the Maximus/Discovery to only get the pellet out the barrel at I bet 600 fps. And that might even be on the high side. But if it’s accurate then it might be worth it. That’s still a fair amount of energy and plus the bigger mass of the .25 pellet at just 24 fpe would put a thump’n on a critter at 25 yards.
And thats another thing to think about. Accuracy. I don’t know what barrel company they use for their .25 conversion. I’m just wondering if it will be as accurate as the Maximus barrel.
And I meant to the barrel. Not valve.
“But like I said. No difference in performance. The .25 uses a bigger inside diameter transfer port orifice so that’s how it’s probably able to get more air flow to the (valve).”
I do NOT have the same mod. experience as you,… Oooops! 🙁
Chris
Your just too funny sometimes ya know that. 🙂
I have my “moments”. That’s a good thing,… right? 😉
Chris
Yes. 🙂
GF1,
This doesn’t have anything to do with the thread that you and Chris have going, but you asked yesterday about my stormrider. I did some shooting with it in the house today and I thought I’d share the results. I filled it to 200 bar and fired it 35 times with a light pellet, a “normal” pellet and a heavy one, all of them lead. They were RWS Hobbys, Crosman Ultra Magnums and JSB Monsters. I just shot them over the chrony with no real regard to aim, so no groups to report, yet.
Here’s the chart.
And here’s the graph.
Halfstep
I was going to say maybe fill a little less then you would have that steady drop of velocity.
Or maybe just keep your fill you have. The guns probably going to shoot high for a few shots in the middle and start going low gradually.
But you never know till you shoot at paper. I have seen chrony curves before that I thought was going to cause problems with my poi. But got very consistent accurate shots.
I’m definitely waiting for your shooting results. And I myself would try all 3 pellets on paper. You just never know.
GF1,
I just filled it to 200 so I could shoot it down and find out where the sweet spot was on a couple of pellets. Then I’d have some idea where to fill when I started shooting for accuracy. Seems like that’s what BB usually does. I’ve just about settled on 175 bar. It would give all three of these about a 25 fps range over 10 shots.( I took close up pics of my gauge every 5 shots so I could correlate the pressure to the velocity. I just don’t know how to add it to my graph 😉 )
For the accuracy part, I plan to fill the gun to 175 bar, shoot ten shots, then refill to 175 and shoot the next pellet and so on. I’ll try about 25 different pellets at 12 yards (may just do 5 shots on each pellet for that part), the best ones will get tested further. I haven’t decided whether I’m using the shot tray or the mag. I have some JSB Beasts that won’t fit in the mag, so I know they will get the tray.
Halfstep
Yep definitely a good idea to document air pressure in relation to shot count.
And at 12 yards I would have a very hard time determining what was the best pellet. But then again if I shot at 12 yards everyday I would probably get good at it at that distance.
Agree with GF1 that 12 yards may not determine the best pellet. One that shoots good groups at 12 yards may open up a lot at 25-30 yards. Also, a pellet that shoots poor groups at 12 yards may shoot good groups at 25 yards. Maybe this is not true of PCP airguns? I’ve read this regarding breakbarrel spring guns.
Geo791,
I’m just starting at 12 yards. BB does 10 yards all the time before going out farther with the more promising pellets. I happen to have 12 yards available indoors so that’s what I use. If it’s good enough for the “Godfather”, it’s good enough for me. I also believe that I’ll get more meaningful results at 12 yards indoors than I will outside in the blustery wind conditions my area is facing lately.
I think, generally, a bad pellet at 12 yards would be a worse pellet at 25-30 yards, with the odd head scratcher thrown in there to keep this hobby of ours interesting.
GF1,
My pellets aren’t as well behaved as yours. Even at just 12 yards some of ’em will let me know right off that they ain’t gonna mind me!
Halfstep
All you got to do is talk to them and feed them nice and they will behave good for you. 🙂
Chris,
You commented on the steady up and down of BB’s test gun’s velocity. These are my results. Light and heavy pellets don’t do as well as “regular” ones, apparently.
Chris,
I just looked back at Part 2 of BB’s report and it hit me that the Crosman Primieres that he shot to get that result is (at least, I think) the same pellet I’m calling Ultra Magnum. If it is then my gun never backtracked with them either, although it did with the other two. The weight is the same, in any event, and I got 45fps more out of them. I also got my 35 shots in by the time the tank had a little over 95 bar left. Another thing to point out about the velocity is that PAs listing says “up to 900 fps” but my owner’s manual says “950 fps,max” and I got a little over that with the lead Hobbys. Maybe mine is just a “hot” one.
Halfstep
And I know this off subject just like the whole weekend has been.
But I just tryed drawing a different target design. And this is out at 60 yards not my normal 50. Hey they cut the corn the other day so I can start stretching out again.
The shots are more vertical than I like. But still happy with the target. I can still reference the center if I shoot the bullseye out. And that’s the Maximus and it’s dead calm out.
Oh and I been hitting a green bean tin can at a 100 yards pretty consistent this evening with the Maximus.
But here’s my target.
GF1,
Like the targets and especially the results. What is that, 3/4″ ctc? What pellet?
Halfstep
About 1/2″ side to side. And 1″ vertical. And yep center to center.
GF1,
Nice shooting at 60. I would take that. Off subject? Hey, we have been having some good air gun related topic discussions going on. That counts in my book.
Chris
I agree.
Halfstep,
Nice work on the shooting and data collection. Your graph is sweet and really makes things clear to see. It will be interesting to see the accuracy in relation to the curve. It can surprise you like GF1 said. You will just have to shoot and see. On shooting at 12 yards,.. that is a good start. My long indoor is 13.6 yds. I have never seen a pellet get better at further out. If one ever did, it was me and not the gun. If your gun is super accurate though, you will have a tuff time seeing much of anything useful at 12. POI from pellet to pellet will show up pretty good though,.. higher/lower.
Keep us posted when you get to get out. It has been nasty and cold here too.
Chris USA,
When you test a lot of pellets, as I do, you learn much about them at 12 yards. They include some odd brands that I never hear anyone talk about, because I’m always looking for a good CHEAP pellet to feed my repeaters.( they think that because I like playing with them they can just eat me out of house and home) I have partial tins of pellets that I wish would just run away, since they haven’t shot well in anything up to this point, when they’re gone, I won’t be replacing them. 12 yards will reveal the real stinkers, usually. I don’t usually spend time testing my wadcutters, at all, in guns that I intend to use at farther distances. I think that that would be a case where one could be mislead by 12 yard results into thinking that a pellet might be accurate at long range.
For the longer range tests at 25 and 50 yards I intend to refill to 175 bar after each 10 shot group, just because the reservoir is so small on this gun. The accuracy over the curve part that you seem to be most interested in will come after I have found ( I hope) one or more accurate pellets in the other stages.
HS
I have watched a few YouTube reviews and most reviewers say that the JSB 15.89 gr pellet gives the best groups in a Diana Stormrider. These seem to be a “go to” pellet for many airguns from what I have read. Btw, did you watch Tyler’s video review?
Geo791,
I watched it a day or two after he put that up and pre-ordered the gun the next day on the strength of the video. About a month ago I ordered four 500 count tins of those JSB pellets while I was waiting for my gun only to have, a day or two after I received them, BB post a report here that got such bad results with them that he didn’t even post the customary target photo with ” THE DIME “. LOL I’ll know soon enough, I guess. As for the other videos you spoke of, I haven’t seen them, I guess. Were they of actual stormriders( Stormriders) or one of the other brands and names it’s sold under? I have seen some of those but didn’t understand the languages.
Halfstep
There is a YouTube video review at those other guys web site in “under pressure”.
Also, there is a review at Airgun Nation though the one they reviewed was a .177 and pre-production. They did show accuracy from several different pellets.
https://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/diana-stormrider-pcp-air-rifle-test-review-177-caliber/
This review was for an Airmax Varmint aka SPA PR900W and it appears to be the very same rifle with the exception of an adjustable trigger.
https://ruclip.com/airgun-video/LKz34ZnUBVo/reviewing-the-airmax-varmint-aka-spa-pr900w-diana-stormrider-artemis-smk.html