by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Crosman’s 100 is a .177 caliber variation of the more plentiful model 101.
This report covers:
- The test
- Sight-in
- Crosman Premier Lights
- Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets
- RWS Superdomes
- H&N Baracuda Match
- Discussion
- Summary
Today is accuracy day for the Crosman 100 multi pump and I had to get out the trime! If you have been reading the blog for more than half a year, you know what that means. If not, you will.
The test
The test was at 10 meters indoors with the rifle resting on a sandbag rest. I shot 5-shot groups today because the 100 is a multi pump. I pumped 4 times for every shot. I said in the last report I was going to pump 5 times per shot, but after examining the velocity figures I felt 4 pumps were enough. Because I only shot 5-shot groups, I tried 4 different pellets, and when you see the results you’ll be glad that I did! Five shots are a fair indicator of accuracy. They are not as conclusive as 10 shots, but in a pinch they will do.
Sight-in
This rifle has been apart for an overhaul and refinishing, so there was no telling where the sights were. The first shot hit to the left (yes, RidgeRunner — my REAL left!) and a little below the target. As you know the rear sight on the 100 does not adjust in a precise manner. Two locking screws are loosened and the peep is slid in the direction you want the strike of the round to go. It’s fiddly and took me 5 shots to get on target.
Crosman Premier Lights
Because this is a Crosman rifle, I shot the first group with Crosman Premier light pellets. Not that anyone in the company today knows (or knew) anyone who worked there when the 100 was being manufactured, but I do it out of respect, I guess. Five Premier Lights went into a well-centered 0.556-inch group at 10 meters, which I thought was pretty nice.
The Crosman 100 put 5 Crosman Premier Light pellets into 0.556-inches at 10 meters.
Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets
Next up were 5 Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets. There was no way I was going to adjust the sights for them, so they hit where they wanted to, which was a little high and to the right. Five pellets made a 0.565-inch group at 10 meters, and I was starting to have confidence in this rifle.
The Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellets made a group almost the same size as the Premiers — but in a different place. Five in 0.565-inches at 10 meters.
RWS Superdomes
The next pellet is one I didn’t test for velocity. The RWS Superdome is very often among the most accurate pellets in air rifles. It’s certainly worth consideration. This time the gamble paid off, as the model 100 put 5 Superdomes into a group measuring 0.443-inches between centers. Notice that it is also very nicely centered in the bull. When I saw it through my spotting scope I thought I had found the perfect pellet. But I said I would test 4 different pellet this time, and as you will soon see, I am glad that I did!
Five RWS Superdome pellets went into 0.443-inches at 10 meters. The way the target paper tore makes the group appear larger. This is impressive. You would think this is the best pellet — right? Wait for it!
H&N Baracuda Match
Drum roll, please! The last pellet I tested was the H&N Baracuda Match that was in the velocity test. When I saw this group for the first time I knew it was time to get out the trime! For those who don’t know, I usually place an American dime in my pictures of my groups, so you get a sense of scale. The dime I use is somewhat of an icon and even has a story of its own. But sometimes I shoot a group so small that I need a smaller coin. I searched for a widow’s mite — the coin mentioned in the New Testament of the bible (Mark 12:42) — because it has the reputation of being very small. But real ones can be expensive and there is not a lot of agreement on which small bronze coin it actually was. So instead I settled on the American silver three-cent piece. Coin collectors sometimes call it the trime.
Five H&N Baracuda Match pellets went into 0.145 inches at 10 meters. This is as good as it gets, folks! I probably can’t do that well again in the next 100 targets — which suggests a test I might like to do. No, I won’t shoot 100 targets, but I’m not opposed to shooting 10. Then we could see whether this is a representative 5-shot group or just a random great one. This is the reason 10-shot groups are better when testing accuracy.
This group is smaller than it appears because of the way the paper tore. Five H&N Baracuda Match pellets went into 0.145-inches at 10 meters.
Discussion
This test turned out much better than I anticipated. The Crosman model 100 is quite accurate. The loading difficulty and faulty trigger are things I can work around for accuracy this good.
Summary
I’m proposing one final test, which would be 10 five-shot groups of H&N Baracuda Match pellets at 10 meters, which we can then compare to the last group of this test. That’s going to take an entire report to present and it’s going to take me a lot of time to do, so I will only do it if you really want me to. Otherwise, this is the final report.
B.B.,
I know it wouldn’t take much to push you to do the ten shot at ten meters group. How about an additional ten shots at 25 yards?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
That’s a lot of shooting! However, if I get at least one more group like this one, I will do it.
B.B.
BB being the best group is smaller then the .177 caliber I guess you subtract the 177 from the group. am I right?
Mildot52,
That’s how group sizes are calculated.
B.B.
Yes I always figured that
B.B.
Man that’s accurate! I guess heavier is better….I thought “usually” that low powered guns prefer lighter pellets, wrong!
-Y
BB
Nice upside down shooting. 😉
But why are the targets upside down in the pictures?
GF1,
Nice catch! I thought I was interested in what this old gal can do.
RR
You thought you wanted to know. 😉
Gunfun1,
The dime is right side up though.
Siraniko
Siraniko
BB explained below.
GF1,
To conserve on targets I cut 12-target sheets in half. Half of them will be hung upside-dopwn, because the extra paper I use for clamping to the pellet trap will be at the bottom of the big sheet, which on half of the half-sheets is now the top.
B.B.
BB
I was figuring you had a reason. Just wasn’t sure what.
Thought maybe you was testing me after I mentioned that time about backing up a bit on the picture taking to give more visibility of the target. 🙂
GF1,
Oh, I’m still doing that! 😉
B.B.
BB
🙂
B.B.,
Nice shooting. On further testing,… I say move on. You must have quite a back log. On the other hand, if the back log is manageable, then by all means have at it. You are the king of the hill after all. 😉 I am with you on the difficulty of repeating something great. It happens to me all the time. I have to see repeatability before making any concrete conclusions. Often times, it just comes down to an average of what it, or I can do. But hey,.. “There was this time when I got this awesome .xxx group”,….. 🙂
Off topic, but on the way posts appear in the comment section,…
As you have noted in the past, the blog is quite active. There is times when a conversation can go on a bit and then we run out of room. From there, things can get a bit confusing or we just start over at the bottom, for example. Is it possible to have the last comment just shift left at the start position, yet still remain under the last comment? It may not be something that you have any control over, but if you do, I thought that it might be worth consideration. Maybe no blog format does that. I would not know,.. this is the only blog I visit and post on with very rare exception.
Chris
Chris,
No control. That’s the way the software is written.
B.B.
B.B.,
You must have been thinking of British motorcycles, because that last group you shot was H&K Baracuda MATCHLESS! :^)
While I usually agree with anything Chris writes, I have a feeling you have created an itch with that incredible group. If you are thinking 50 shots total, would you consider 10 five shot groups vs. 5 ten shot groups? Scratch that. I think 10 five shot groups are a better test. It would weed out the occasional and inevitable lapse in concentration.
What would you extrapolate that five-shot group of 0.145 would have been with ten?
Michael
Michael,
Fifty shots with one of these pumpers is a lot of shooting or more correctly a lot of pumping. Fifty shots with a sproinger would be a lot of shooting. After a test like that BB would either be ready for Gold’s Gym or an ICU.
Michael,
I’m trying to replicate what I shot here 10 more times. That means 10 5-shot groups.
B,.B.
Michael,
I think BB told me recently to expect about a 40% increase with 10 shots.
Halfstep,
Well, a ten-shot group of about 0.26 of an inch at 10 meters is mighty impressive. :^)
Michael
Michael,
I agree, but that’s IF I was right about the 40%. I tried to find the comment where he answered me, but I didn’t have any luck.
BB,
My personal opinion is you should move on to another, possibly the 102 or maybe even a modern pumper like the 397 or 392. Of course you can probably dig around in here and find something on these.
You really need to get away from these fine antique air rifles and pistols for awhile and review some of the modern ones that are readily available and I am not interested in as RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns has enough residents for now. 😉
BB
Please do the 10 five shot group test. Validation of even a 10 shot group is sometimes daunting. Variables are so numerous and sometimes hard to account for.
I have much respect for the guys that want to move on to other things but some of these oldies are goldies. Just maybe marketing folks will bring a retro back to life. I have a 50 year old Walther LGV Olympia I got from a reader that you would take to the dance.
Thanks,
Decksniper
I will shoot some 10 meter groups with my 100 and let you know the results. It’s a very accurate rifle and have got the best groups with Crosman Premiers and SuperDomes.
Bobbyjim,
Great! The more, the merrier!
B.B.
ok, just finished shooting. 10 meters and 4 pumps. Using a 3/4″ bull I got the following groups.
SuperDomes-.322
AA Falcons-.345
AA Diablo Fields-.463
Crosman HP’s-.217
Crosman Premiers are even more accurate but I have none left. Several years ago I mounted a scope and got the same groups at 20 yds with the CHP’S and Better with the Premiers. But these tired 71 year old eyes ain’t what they used to be.
By the way, my wife found this 100 in one of those free shopper magazines. Called and bought it on her own, it was my wedding anniversery present. Original owner who got it for his 14th birthday. All of $50.00 including the paper work were it had been resealed by an autorized Crosman repair shop.
Bobbyjim,
What a set of stories! My eyes are watering!
And what an airgun! I guess these things really are that accurate! Yippie! 🙂
B.B.
Bobbyjim, you are a fortunate man to have such a wise wife. 🙂
The Dave mystery
Thanks for saying she is wise, maybe it was me being wise for marrying her.
She is always on the look out for airguns. She found a Crosman 160 at a yard sale for $35.00. Recently told a customer at work that I shoot and rebuild airguns, he came back with a Crosman Piece Maker 44 And an old Crosman 1377, 2nd varient, both for free.
I resealed the 44 and it was in excellent condition. 1377 is now a 1322 and since I have all the equipment needed including a lathe and mill it now has a custom made aluminum 2nd varienth style breech, 2260 barrel, o ring piston, flat top valve and much much more.
Spell check changed your log in name and I didn’t catch it.
Bobbyjim
Nice. I would like to see a picture of that.
Gunfun1
Do you mean the 1377?
Bobbyjim
Sorry yep the 1377.
I like those guns. They are great to mod as well as the 2240’s. I like mine with long barrels and the 1399 stock. Oh and the Crosman steel breeches.
So she’s on the lookout for cool airguns for you…yes, you were definitel wise to marry her! Happy New Year to you and to all! =D
Tom
OK, just did a 10 shot group using unsorted Crosman HP’s. Measured 10 meters shooting at 6 o’clock on a 1″ bull. Got .394 off a bench using a throw pillow for a rest.
I think with Crosman Premiers I could bring that down to .250.
Bobbyjim,
What have I started? 😉 😉 😉
B.B.
B.B.
No one to blame but yourself. LOL
As they say: Old is new again.
This could turn into the best test of all time.
Wow, not bad at all, and the Barracuda Match comes close to the best I’ve seen from the Lothar Walther barrels on my 2400KTs. I wish my old Crosman 760 could shoot this well — I spent hours and hours shooting that gun and trying to improve my accuracy before I finally realized I could shoot better than that gun could. Though I’m sure my old 760 could have done better with today’s wonderful selection of pellets.
HiveSeeker
Your old 760 might have had a non rifled barrel. Might have been the problem with accuracy. Just depends on how old it was.
Bobbyjim
I have had both the old rifled and non rifled barrel 760’s.
I used them for pesting in barns and such. Had real good luck with 8 grain wadcutters. As long as I kept inside of 30 yards with both guns.
BB,
For the 50 shot test, my vote is yes if you have the time. As an alternative, send it to RidgeRunner and let let him do the pumping. But then getting it back…
Jim
Jim,
So let me understand. I ship it to RR, he pumps it for me and then ships it back for each shot? The test will be completed in 2078, at a cost of a quarter million dollars! 😉
B.B.
BB,
Not exactly. It was intended more as a joke. I meant let RR do the test and report back to you. He could do the pumping and shooting.
JIm
BB,
I’d like to see the 10, 5 shot strings. If not with this gun then some other one when you have a chance. But this one did shoot a pretty awesome group to use as a control…
Very nice shooting, BB.
Happiest of New Year wishes…
B.B., if you have time I would appreciate if you would shoot additional targets with the 100.
I feel that one group (of 5 shots) may represent the accuracy of the rifle but then, all factors considered, it could be a “lucky” group where all variables converged or an “unlucky” group where all variables dispersed.
I have my own way for testing and can be “fussy” because I am entertaining myself and have no reports to write 🙂
I don’t shoot unsorted pellets when testing for accuracy or looking for the “golden” pellet and usually shoot five 5-shot groups and average the results to draw any conclusions. I sort for weight and head size.
For semiserious shooting with unsorted pellets I will shoot 10-shot groups and measure the core group ignoring “fliers” writing them off as poor shooting on my part or nonconforming pellets.
My rifles tend to shoot tight groups so with 10-shot groups I am often left to wonder where in the hole most of the pellets went. To deal with that issue I have a special target (a page filled with rows of small targets) that I shoot one pellet per bullseye. The target gives me a new bullseye for each shot and I can clearly see where the POI is relative to the POA.
Happy Friday All!!
Hank
Hank
That’s the way I do it too. I make 9 quarter inch black dots on a white piece of copier paper with a 1 inch red circle around each.
Sometimes I shoot 1 shot at each dot. Sometimes 10 shots at 1 dot. Then sometimes only 5 shots at one dot.
It all depends on what gun I’m shooting and what I’m looking for by how I shoot at the target.
Vana2,
I shoot for self entertainment, too. So, this is how I make sure that it takes a long time when I’m shooting to test a new gun at 10 – 20 yards.( too much exercise at farther distances) I make a dot on my backer board, which is usually made from a cereal box, then I pin a Post-It sized piece of paper under it. I have the scope or sights adjusted so they hit the paper and not my dot. I shoot 5 shots then move or replace the paper square, depending on how big the group ends up being, then shoot 5 more shots. Now I have a record of two 5 shot groups on the paper as well as a 10 shot group captured on the backer. Sometimes I will collect as many as 7 or 8 5 shot strings on the backer just to see what kind of group I can expect to hold over a full CO2 cartridge or air fill and how the smaller strings loosen up or tighten up as the velocity drops. Setting a new target every 5 shots eats up a lot of time but I feel that I learn a little more about the gun in the process.
Hi HalfStep,
Yup, a can of pellets will keep me smiling for a couple of hours 🙂
Like to practice in 5 yard increments – starting at 5 yards as I feel it is as important to know my hold-over at very close ranges (like when shooting rats in a barn) as much as it is for longer ranges.
I like your approach in using cardboard and collecting mulit-group stats on one post-it.
I have a 12-up target that I print, stick to cereal boxes (with spray adhesive) and cut apart for use. The cardboard backing is good as it leaves a pretty clear pellet hole and you only need one push-pin to pin the target to the backstop.
I don’t mind the stroll to pickup and place targets. Think it is important to memorize the shooting distance, see it, pace it off and check the results for every target… part of the “programming” 🙂 Besides, it gives me a chance to regain my focus and some good exercise. LOL!
I’ll typically pin these targets up every 5 yards and bench shoot 3-shot groups without compensation at the scope magnifications I normally use for hunting (4x and 9x). The targets are collected and labeled. A set of targets will have a hole punched at the top and threaded on to a string or ty-wrap so I can see the POI relative to the POA at different distances visually.
Find this approach helps me with estimating my compensation. I will often refer to the target-set as a reminder before going for a walk-about or I am doing off-hand practice with compensation.
Don’t remember if I sent you one of these targets so I will try attaching a full scale one to this post.
Too cold for shooting today – Hope we get a break in the weather!
Hank
Hank
5 yard increments starting at 5 yards.
I can see the starting at 5 yards. But every 5 yards on out. What I have seen is the hold under or over from 5 yards out to about 25 yards doesn’t change that much. It’s out past 25 yrds. is when it starts changing progressively more. I have always done every 10 yards from 10 yards out to 100 yards. And that’s on certian guns. That’s usually the higher power guns. But most of my guns I will check them at 10 yards out to 60 yards at 10 yard increments. And that’s the lower powered guns.
Hi GF1,
I understand where you are coming from and 10 yard increments are fine for most shooting. And I agree that the compensation doesn’t change much in the PBR (Point Blank Range) zone.
I practice at close range to be sure that if a rat pops up at ten feet that I remember that the there is a an inch and a half to two inches (depends on which scopes and mounts I am using) between the center of the scope and the center of the bore. Seen more misses at close range than I would like to admit to 🙂
When hunting, fast seat-of-the-pants compensation adjustments take some real skill. Maximum effective range (for me) means that all shots are within a one inch circle… a minute of a squirrels head? So, for me 60 yards is about my limit right now. Working on it.
Yeah, 5 yard increments are close but that gives me a lot more practice and practice is good 🙂
Hank
Hank
And scope height and reducing scope magnification help with that too.
That’s were good ole Chairgun helps out.
Hank,
I don’t have those targets so I will copy them with your permission and print them as I need them. Thanks.
You may have misunderstood my method (perhaps because I didn’t explain it well, which would not be surprising. As I pointed out to BB on yesterdays blog, I can’t use my hands here. 😉 ). I collect the multiple strings on the cereal box backer and individual strings on the Post-It sized paper that overlays it. I try to keep the cardboard backer sort of small to fit in a sandwich bag and both the Post-It and the backer are pinned to a heavy cardboard target holder. I don’t currently hunt with my guns, but if I ever do in the future, I could see adopting your training regimen to make aiming as instinctive as possible.
Your remark about gluing to cereal box cardboard should ( but probably won’t) vindicate me with my wife. She thinks I’m nuts because I don’t want her to throw out any tin cans or cardboard without letting me pass judgement on whether or not I can use it as a target or as stencil making material. Until I got you on my side I was just a ” Hoarder” ! 🙂
Halfstep,
Toss out the terms like, “recycled, repurposed, resourceful, environmentally friendly”. Then again,.. if you have “been there, done that”,… you are on your own! 😉
Chris U,
I do but I can tell by the look in her eyes that what she’s hearing is , ” more junk, more trash , more garbage, more crap …”
Chris U,
On a different note, Steve at AEAC on YouTube has his review of the Diana stormrider out now. He is kinder and gentler than I have been about my guns but he had pretty much the same experience with his test gun as I did. And he did test a production model with the lower case “s” in the name. Funny how the upper case “S” on the pre-production guns made them performed better. 🙂
Halfstep,
Mmmm,.. sound’s like the “S” (pre-prod.) gun might have “cherry picked”? At any rate, you have given us enough info. to say that we might want to sit this one out.
Well I was skeptical when they said a Diana was going to be a Chinese gun.
I know I got that China HPA compressor and my QB79 that’s doing good so far.
But I just don’t seem right for a German air gun manufacturer to go Chinese.
Halfstep,
“Hoarder” is a nice term… My wife just calls me a junk collector 🙂
I print my targets on 8.5 x 11 sheets which get perforated, labeled, punched and stored in a 3-ring binder. I’m not as diligent as Chris USA in keeping notes but I like to keep my targets and I always have a steno pad with me when I am shooting.
Cardboard, tins, plastic, glass, etc. are classed as “recyclable materials” and as such is kept separate from the garbage. Seeing that I am the one who puts the stuff out, I get first dibbs on what gets squirreled away.
Please feel free to copy and distribute that target – hope you like it!
Hank
Hank,
Should have said ” ..make ranging” not “aiming” .
B.B.,
This ol’ gal did better than I expected! But don’t overtax yourself on our account. I would suggest 3 more 5-shot groups at 10 meters with the Baracudas; and if they are even close to being as small as the previous group,
then perhaps 3 more 5-shot groups at 25 yards. That should be sufficient to rule out any anomalies and to give a good fell for the close and intermediate-range accuracy of this classic old rifle.
Keep up the good work, and have an awesome New Year!
dave
I meant “feel,” hahaha!
Dave,
That’s a good plan. If I get another 5-shot group that’s close to this one in the first 3-5 groups, I will stop and back up to 25 yards.
Thanks,
B.B.
BB,
Ditto what Dave said. Efficient plan!
Halfstep
Writing a reply right now about the crown.
Go to the very bottom.
Hey all,… I received my Coduece spinner(s) today. (1 of each) Ordered on 12/26 and received on 12/28. Packed very well and they are every bit as nice as B.B. described and how they are shown on the Airgun1 site. Looking forwards to using them, however it may be a few as it has been -2 F the previous 2 mornings. This AM was a balmy +9 F.
I would have liked to thank him in the comments here,.. but since has not been around for a few days, he must be busy filling orders.
Oh,.. a link,…: video too.
/blog/2017/11/codeuce-spinner-targets-part-2/
Chris
Like to see what you think about spinner plinking. I don’t remember. Have you had any spinners yet before these? And of course how you like Codueces spinners when you get them in action.
GF1,
No spinners before these. I can not imagine much better and B.B. said he has never seen any spin better.
Chris
Yep very fine spinners. And definitely spin free from what has been said.
What I wonder is how long they spin. Probably will work out with spring guns or even single shot pcp’s and even bolt action magazine single shots. With those type of guns there would be time involved with loading for the next shot. So the spinner would have time to slow down and stop.
But now if you take something like a 1077, WildFire of FX Monsoon or a Hatsan Sortie that can rapid dire. Then you might have to wait inbetween shots.
Don’t get me wrong I 100% like Codueces spinners. But as it goes in saying. There are proper tools for certian jobs.
I myself like the flip up paddle spinners that have multiple paddles and another paddle to reset. I also like the ones that have two paddles that are attached in the middle with one on top and one on the bottom. And if course the feild target type that have the shades of critters and such with the reset paddle. Them are all nice for rapid fire when you have a hand full placed in the yard.
So I guess it all boils down to what kind of gun your using and what type of shooting you want to do. I’m thinking that Codueces spinners will be great for how I think you will use them. As long as your have’n fun I suppose.
GF1,
Well, if nothing else, it is a very good start. My go-to has been the std. 15 oz. (steel) cans, painted fluorescent orange, on sticks. Those “shred” nice and make good “trophy’s”. 😉 They are “action targets” as well, as they fly all around. Plus, if you can punch (both) sides of a steel can, you know the airgun is critter worthy at that range.
You sound as if you have quite the selection, so rapid fire of anything ought not to pose an issue for you.
Hey Chris,
Try some of those white plastic 4 or 6 ounce containers they sell drinks/yogurt in. Stuff them (tightly) with a plastic bag and seal the top with some CA glue or RTV.
Hang ‘um on a string or roll them along the ground. I always have a couple out on the shooting range to entertain me if I get bored with paper – love the way they jump when you hit them 🙂
The soft plastic takes a pellet well and doesn’t leave shreds of metal lying around.
Hank
Hank,
I like it. The white plastic does seem softer than the clear. Tying them off seems good too. I have blown many a can out of sight in the woods, from the bench. The ol’ range might take on a new look next year? Thanx,… Chris
(If you want, you should post some of your set up pics, *sometime*, to give some of the newcomers a look-see of what can be done to a range,… if you want. You have a nice one. Oh, the lap top bench side might be a good one too. That, I still remember.) 😉
Chris
Yep on the above. Got got 4 of the double paddle above and below spinners. 2 of my angle iron spinners I made. 2 sqerrial shoot to reset field targets. One spinner I made that holds a can on a hook. 1 paddle spinner that has 4 paddles across the bottom and one on top you shoot to reset the 4 paddles. Them are all 50 yards and in. Then I got a tin can tyed to a stick with about a foot and a half of yarn at 60, 80 and 100 yards.
So I guess I could find a spot out in the yard for a couple of Codueces spinners as well.
🙂 Although it’s getting to be like a obstacle course in that area of the yard when I cut grass on the riding mower. And I do leave my targets up year round.
But you should try to tie your florescent cans to a stick with yarn like I mentioned. That keeps them from getting knocked off somewhere where you can’t see them and they still fly up in the air nice.
And actually when I shoot my WildFire or Daisy 74’s or my Colt Python or the Steel Storm or my ISSC M22. It’s usually at a couple cans thrown out in the yard and then go to town.
The spinners and cans out in the feild are usually with my FWB 300, HPA QB79, Maximus, 1322 with the long barrel, 760 and HW30s. Well mostly the Maximus at the 60, 80 and 100 yard cans.
And yes glad you are getting started in the spinner stuff. Now you got to get you some more fast action guns beside the Beretta I believe you said you have. And now the 2240 your getting ready to mod up. Always seems to be more and more choices to make. 🙂
GF1,
So,…. GF1,… back to the 2240,…. we talked longer barrels,… we talked Maximus barrels,… THEN,.. you say who said anything about using a full length one? What is your opinion on (what would be) the ideal Maximus barrel in a Co2 application? Any mods. to anything else?
I do believe, without checking, Hiveseeker said something in the 52″ range would be ideal. Benji-Don had nice results with a full length Maximus barrel.
I dare to even ask,.. with much trepidation,… but,.. your thoughts? 😉
Chris
Here is what I said.
“I don’t remember we determined that. I remember you asking about the longer barrels.”
Yes I have determined the longer barrels have worked the best on 2240’s on Co2 or HPA. And even on the 1322/77 pumpers.
So I think that answers that. 🙂
GF1,
Your comment of,.. “I don’t remember we determined that.”,… makes me think that you have other ideas. Full length Maximus is the plan at the moment.
Chris
Haha. Yes I do have different ideas.
I did try the Discovery barrels and I like them. But not the Maximus barrels that should be as accurate as the Discovery barrels. If not more accurate.
But the (we) part of determining has been (me) not we. 😉
Now (you) need to get some barrels and determine. 🙂
And ok I’ll stop messing around.
Yes I think the Maximus barrel would be my choice. And I know the Discovery barrel works great.
GF1,
Good. At least I have the barrel scratched off of my “to get” list. 😉
But then,… there is the question of other,….. 🙂
Chris,
I would get two Maximus barrels then you will have one to cut off and try different lengths.
Or you can wait for me i am getting ready to order two or three and may do some tests with shorter barrels. On second thought you dont want to wait on me i have too many projecs going now.
Don
Benji-Don
Something to remember if you do get a barrel and cut it off to different lengths. They might have the last couple inches of the barrel choked down on the muzzle end.
So if you cut the barrel you might loose accuracy. So when you test for velocity also test the accuracy after each time you shorten it and re-crown it. Also remember to face the barrelI off perpendicular to the bore. And I like to go a little deep on the crown just to make sure it’s back from the face if it’s not been machined off perpendicular.
You probably know all that. So just a reminder.
GF1,
I have heard that the Maximus barrels are chocked I do not know for sure. If I was looking for accuracy and velocity only then I think the full length barrel would win out every time over a shorter barrel no matter which end was cut off. Only way to know would be to give it a try and check on paper.
As long as the gun has the 1399A or another stock the long barrels do not seem to be a problem shooting unless you are in brush. Not sure about a moving target. I like a long barrel on a shotgun?
Don
GF1,
When you put a new crown on a barrel is it just a interior chamfer ? If it is, what angle do you make it and do you just use a countersink in the tailstock or do you turn it with an angled RH tool? Does it require lapping or polishing afterwards, in you experience?
Don,
I am VERY interested. The barrel looks to be the most expensive,.. at least on one site that is not Crosman (it is a Maximus barrel). P.A. does not offer them.
**If you do not mind me asking, I assume that you are going through Crosman and am curious as to what their cost is?**
I do not really have a good way to cut and re-crown, at least not any that I would have confidence in. The best I have is some horizontal band saws at work. GF1 might have a point on the choking. I do not know if it is. Cut the other way is an option, but without seeing one out, I am not sure of what machining has been done at the breech end.
Chris
A little Hardinge lathe is nice to have. Works great for barrels and air gun stuff. I lov’em. They are my favorite lathes.
But yes the cutting off really should be square. No slanted stuff. Same with the crown. It needs to be centered to the inside diameter bore of the barrel. The crown centering is the most important part. And of course deburring the crown with some light grit sandpaper and followed with some scotchbrite.
Chris,
I have been going through Crosman for the barrels. On the parts PA sells there is not much markup. But on many sites there is a big markup. PA does not sell the Maximus barrels so I bought mine through Crosman. The cost was $28 for the Hunter barrel and $30 for the original barrel. The Hunter barrel I bought is part # 6-GBMP22-001.
If you go to the Crosman site under “support” you can download the exploded diagrams and part numbers for most of their guns. You can also contact me at the handle I log in with here @ comcast.net. That is my email address. If you figure out the riddle.
Don
Don,
Mucho thanks for the info.. Yes, that one site marked them +2x. I have the Maximus, 2240 and M-rod diagrams already downloaded. Thanks for the E contact as well. I may ask, but for now just figuring out what is what and what is where, cost and features, if different. Talking here helps to inform others as well, within limits.
Crosman is like the poster child for how to do a site, service and parts (for a airgun manufacturer). Good costs too.
Thanks again,… Chris
Benji-Don
I actually did cut down a .177 Discovery barrel some years back. Actually quite a few years back.
What I did was cut it back 2 inches everytime and re-crowned it. And I got the crowns done same as much as I could. I did the cutting and re-crowning at work on a Hardinge lathe. I stopped at 14 inches since I had other Crosman and Lothar Walther barrels that were 14 inches and shorter and new how they performed already.
Mostly what I seen change was velocity dropped as the barrel got shorter. That was on a 2240 and 1377 both with a 1399 shoulder stock.
The 2240 lost shot count on shorter barrels. The 1377 I pumped to 10 pumps each time. Didn’t try different pumps on each legnth barrels. And I did shoot with a new 12 gram cartridge and till the poi dropped off. The longer barrels had a very light release of air left in a cartridge too on the longer barrels. The shorter barrels had more Co2 left. So the longer barrels seemed to be more efficient.
I also had a 2.5-10 power 1/2 mildot Hawke varmint scope mounted on both guns. And was using 10.34 JSB .177 caliber pellets.
And on accuracy it seemed to be the same on the original legnth barrel all the way down to the 14″ legnth. The shorter Crosman and Lothar Walther barrels was not as accurate. But maybe only a 1/8″ difference in group size. And I only tested at 35 yards. So that might of made a difference with the longer barrel lengths out at 50 yards. Over the shorter ones.
After that I just started using the long Discovery barrels on those guns for the obvious reasons I mentioned. And have shot them out to 60 yards recently with good results.
My next step is to get a .177 and .22 caliber Maximus barrel and try some group’s with both guns out to 60 yards and in. I’m thinking the accuracy will improve with the Maximus barrel over the Discovery barrels on these guns. I know my .22 Maximus is much more accurate than the .22 Discovery I had in the past using the same JSB 15.89 pellets.
So there’s my 2-1/2 cents worth on the barrel subject.
GF1,
Thanks for that info pretty much the same as I have got. I do not know for sure but the 2260 and Discovery barrels seem to be the same barrel not bad but not as good as the Maximus. I may try to machine a Maximus barrel to fit the breech on my Marauder.
Don
Benji-Don
I was hoping you would say you got similar results to what I posted.
But like you it is what I have seen with those guns.
And yep that’s what I have always thought about the .22 Discovery and 2260 barrels.
I really do want to get me a Maximus barrel in each caliber.
You did give the part number for the .22 Maximus hunter barrel in .22 caliber I think it was.
What I want is a standard .22 Maximus barrel in .22 and .177 caliber.
Do they have the parts diagrams available now at Crosman for the Maximus? If so I need to get them barrel part numbers.
Chris USA,
I’m so glad your targets arrived quickly. They estimated sat. I’ve have been busy, but not with targets. December is a busy month for millwrights plenty of shutdown work. After Monday things should get back to normal. Sounds like we’re having similar weather, so it might be awhile before the targets make it out, but I definitely look forward to hearing about your experience with Airgun1 Targets. Thank you
Carl
Coduece
Was waiting for you to reply. If you read my comment to Chris about your spinners and the other type I hope your not offended.
I was just trying to bring up the different types and ways to shoot at them.
From what I see your spinners are different and I mean that in a good way. I do plan on getting some. Just got all my extra money tied up in Christmas if you know what I mean. Probably after income tax time is when I’ll start getting some air gun stuff again. And yes I will get some of yours.
GF1 ,
No worries I always appreciate your input! These are specialized targets and aren’t always the right tool for the job at hand. Btw I have a solution to your obstacle course target range should have it ready before mowing season.
Carl
Coduece
Thanks. And ok I won’t ask on the mowing solution. I’ll wait patiently.
🙂
Coduece,
They are very nice. I was hoping to catch you before they shipped,.. and since we are “air gun brother’s” and all of the other secret squirrel club stuff,… I was going to ask for a nice fire engine red, metal flake paint job in lieu of the std. black. Maybe a paint pen autograph? Oh well,.. you were way too fast for me. 😉
I assume that you are “shopping” these around pretty hard and getting some freebies out to different outlets/media? I know that I would be. Hopefully we will see some other reviews in the air gun community/media. That would be super cool! That bracket we talked about would be a nice addition/option. Then of course,.. there will be the “Gen. II”,.. “Gen. III”. 😉
I got a PelletGage too when B.B. showed them off here.
Best of wishes and mucho continued success. I am happy to support the “small guy” for a change.
Chris
Coduece,
Being in Q.C.,.. I meant to comment on the overall quality. The welds are very nice and sized suitable to the task. The squareness of the bends are spot on. The fitment and alignment of the welded components is perfect. The choice of hardware is good. All in all, 0% to complain about.
I meant to say too,… feel free to use any comments (edited or not) as part of your “customer testimonial” page on your site. Which, you do not seem to have yet. A video spot on the site, but no videos yet? Get crackin’ man! 😉
B.B.,
I was thinking, (run now!),… and I thought of punching cans and how clean the holes are. At least the entrance ones anyways. The exit ones,… not so much.
So, how about aluminum roof flashing, cut cans, foil? That would give a super nice holes/groups to measure I would think. Maybe a bit over the top, but hey, that would make a super sweet target to frame/display.
Just an idea. Ok,… back to my seat,… 😉
Chris
Chris,
Aluminum foil?
B.B.
B.B.,
Ok, maybe not aluminum foil. It would work good for shots that are not too close. Tearing? Backed with cardboard too. The good stuff, layered up, might be pretty good. My 100% go-to for ease and use would be aluminum roof flashing. I have roll of 10″, but it won’t getting tested anytime soon. Brrrrrr!
As you know, I use duct tape on the (back) of quality graph paper, backed. I like it and recommend it to anyone thinking they might like it. I have not found much better.
For anyone thinking that they are going to go out and get the “baddest duct tape” on the market,.. don’t. It has very strong linier stands that will “split”, taking some of the paper with it. Medium quality seems ideal.
Chris
Hey Chris,
Think you have an idea there. Talking about tin foil and duct tape made me think of the aluminum tape that they use for sealing the seams in forced-air ducts. That tape is quite thick and has a high-tack.
Had to try it – stuck pieces of the tape to the back of a paper target, mounted the target on a cardboard backing board and tested with a couple of domed pellets. The holes are very clear – look like they were shot with wadcutters. I’ll see if I can post a picture tomorrow.
Hank
Hank,
Very good idea. I was thinking more of the target material up front, not in back. I had not thought of the tape. Looking forwards to seeing pics if you get around to it.
I will walk into a Lowe’s home improvement store and my eye is constantly scanning for things that can be modified/applied to air gunning. There is much. 🙂
Hey Chris,
Attached is the picture showing 3 pellet holes in the target area and 2 outside for reference. The paper is standard photo-copy paper and the tape is the 2 inch wide heavy aluminum duct tape with the paper backing protecting the adhesive.
It took but a minute to cut and apply the tape to the back of my 5-up target and smooth it down.
As you can see, the domed pellets cut a very clean hole – think I will be using this tape on all my special purpose targets.
Know what you mean about watching for materials/items that can be useful for airgunning. Just be glad that you are not afflicted with the “fly tying material collecting syndrome” where shiny bits, beads, fur, feathers, yarns, wire, etc.,etc. are all potential materials. Couple of weeks ago I got some nice fur from a doe who forgot to look both ways when crossing the road. Even the cat has learned to keep clear when I am tying flies 🙂
Hank
Hank,
Very nice! The difference is quite pronounced. I would agree,.. that would be the go to choice when shooting for the “Universe’s Most-est Best-est Group Of All Time”. Thank you for the pics.
Chris
Chris U,
Just home improvement stores?? I’m on the lookout 24/7 in every store I go into. Thrift stores are a treat!
OK, last 10 shot groups for the day. Looking forward to 25 yds.
Crosman HP’s-.395
SuperDomes-.502
A A Falcons-.555
A A Diabolo Fields-.427
And the winner so far: Cheap RS Basics – .369
Someone on an Airgun Facebook group I follow posted this…anyone recognize the air pistol model? (Had to counter the yogurt photo with SOMETHING…)
Hive Seeker,
Walther LP53
/blog/2006/05/walther-lp53-the-james-bond-airgun/
http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/walther-lp53
Mike
Sold for 277,250.
Quid.
Could this be a record for Airguns?
Thanks! Story was there was not any other gun handy when they did the photo shoot.
So we are ALL James Bond cool…
I am going off subject here, but it does not look like I am the only one.
I know some of you have already seen this, but it looks like this year Evanix is teaming up with other companies to combine marketing and distribution and give these companies ready made big bores. Gamo is taking the Rex line and relabeling them the TC35 and TC45. Winchester is taking the Blizzard and putting it in a Model 70 style stock.
It seems more and more airgun companies are paying attention to what we want and it looks like there will be quite a few big bores out there this next year.
RR,
Off topic?!,… Here?!,… This place is going straight to the dogs,.. let me tell ya’! 😉
The news is nice. More is good. More is also more to sort out and sift through too. Still,… I like more! 🙂
RR
Kind of a bit of a surprise from Gamo. Maybe not so much from Winchester. Although Gamo did buy out Daisy if I remember right.
Yep it will be interesting to see how things go in the future. Probably will be interesting for sure.
And how about this. Me talking about spelling as much as my phone screws me up.
But it’s (choked) barrels. Not (chocked) barrels.
I heard of chocked tires so a vehicle won’t roll. But not a chocked barrel.
Sorry had to do it. 🙂
GF1,
Are YOU sure YOU want to go there? Sqerrial-boy? 😉
B.B.
BB
Yes I know. But I had to grab my opportunity when it presented itself. What more can I say.
🙂
GF1,
What do you know about the no longer offered 2250 (rifle) platform for modding? Still 1x Co2, longer tube, many have been modded into pistol format, from what I have seen. Anything fit a 2240 that you know of? I am thinking parts, if I can get them.
Why do I ask? I am not sure of the availability of a fore end with the 2240. On the other hand, the 2250 seems to have options. Plus, the longer tube makes sense with a 24-26″ Maximus barrel (support).
Ideas? Opinions? No clue?
GF1,
Never mind. I see that Hiveseeker’s 2240 has one and I think that I ran across it my searches. So, cancel request.
Chris
Too late here check this out.
The 2250’s was one of my favorite Co2 guns Crosman made. I never did get one. And they even offered a nice wood Skelton stock and forearm grip for them. Then there was the 88 gram Co2 cartridge version that I thought was cool too. Man if I had that one it would for sure have the 88 gram cartridge replaced with a Air Venturi regulated HPA bottle.
/product/crosman-2250xt?m=366
And Chris why do you keep worrying about barrel support. There are alot of PCP guns that don’t support the barrel from all the way back by the breech. The Marauder rifle is one.
Trust me it works. The barrel holds it’s natural position. It might oscillate and move when shot. But it does the same oscillation or pretty close each shot that’s fired. Don’t worry about a free floating barrel. Trust me. It’s ok. I have done it for years on these guns we are discussing.
GF1,
At that moment, it was a consideration. I had yet to re-check Hiveseeker’s blogs. Many sites, which I have narrowed even more. Some are not so good on descriptions. Others can provide parts and a good bit of education.
The consideration at the moment, is a possible “power” valve of sorts to take (fuller) advantage of the long barrel. As we know, the longer barrel will provide more fps. That is the idea anyways. Stock, a 2240 will do a spec. 460 fps and I have seen some mods. pushing 600 real hard. Very few have done the 24″ barrel on a 2240 from what I have seen. I am just exploring options and getting myself educated a bit at the moment.
Chris
Guess you missed my reply above to Benji-Don about the Discovery barrels I cut years back.
It was a .177 barrel and yes I like .177 better on these types of guns we are talking about. They are able to achieve a higher velocity plus you need less hold over or under on .177 with the flatter trajectory. And yes even with heavy JSB 10.34 pellets.
Here is my reply. And you really should consider .177 caliber. From wading all your comments over time I believe that you are under estimating .177 caliber.
“Benji-Don
I actually did cut down a .177 Discovery barrel some years back. Actually quite a few years back.
What I did was cut it back 2 inches everytime and re-crowned it. And I got the crowns done same as much as I could. I did the cutting and re-crowning at work on a Hardinge lathe. I stopped at 14 inches since I had other Crosman and Lothar Walther barrels that were 14 inches and shorter and new how they performed already.
Mostly what I seen change was velocity dropped as the barrel got shorter. That was on a 2240 and 1377 both with a 1399 shoulder stock.
The 2240 lost shot count on shorter barrels. The 1377 I pumped to 10 pumps each time. Didn’t try different pumps on each legnth barrels. And I did shoot with a new 12 gram cartridge and till the poi dropped off. The longer barrels had a very light release of air left in a cartridge too on the longer barrels. The shorter barrels had more Co2 left. So the longer barrels seemed to be more efficient.
I also had a 2.5-10 power 1/2 mildot Hawke varmint scope mounted on both guns. And was using 10.34 JSB .177 caliber pellets.
And on accuracy it seemed to be the same on the original legnth barrel all the way down to the 14″ legnth. The shorter Crosman and Lothar Walther barrels was not as accurate. But maybe only a 1/8″ difference in group size. And I only tested at 35 yards. So that might of made a difference with the longer barrel lengths out at 50 yards. Over the shorter ones.
After that I just started using the long Discovery barrels on those guns for the obvious reasons I mentioned. And have shot them out to 60 yards recently with good results.
My next step is to get a .177 and .22 caliber Maximus barrel and try some group’s with both guns out to 60 yards and in. I’m thinking the accuracy will improve with the Maximus barrel over the Discovery barrels on these guns. I know my .22 Maximus is much more accurate than the .22 Discovery I had in the past using the same JSB 15.89 pellets.
So there’s my 2-1/2 cents worth on the barrel subject.”
GF1,
Naw,.. I would give that a solid 3 cents at least! 😉 I did see it and yes, I have not considered the .177 platform much at all. I find the pellets to be a bit fidgety for my fingers. The .22’s I can do much easier. .177 in a rotary mag. would push me more towards a .177, but I am not going that far with a 2240. More to think about. Thanks.
GF1,
Remember this?
http://rowanengineering.com/products1.htm
A rotary magazine that uses the dove tail to mount it and turns a single shot into a multi-shot,.. that is if you happen to have what it fits. Still,.. a stellar idea.
I am surprised I was even able to find it. I must be getting better at this searching stuff! 🙂
Chris
Don’t remember that specific site. But how about this.
If I find you a breech that will accept something like a Marauder magazine. And it’s .177 caliber will you consider trying .177 caliber?
Chris,
I myself am a big fan of free floating barrels. I learned about that when I was a youngster. The only way I would use a barrel band is to maybe help hold everything together such as on a pumper.
As for a 24 inch barrel, you are starting to make that thing unwieldy, that is probably why you do not see many of them.
Now if you are wanting more power, maybe you ought to give this some consideration.
http://www.buyhipac.com/home.html
😉
R.R.,
Thank you for the input. I will not be going Hi-Pac. I did look into it though. Hiveseeker’s looks as if it would point well. Then again,…. you say more power ehh? 😉
RR,
Have you seen this video where a HIPAC goes through a guys leg?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1hrms0i2LU&t=270s
Ouch! That is going to leave a mark.
OK, now that was a highly modified pistol. He was using a Discovery valve in it. I wonder what PSI he was running? I’ll bet it was around 3000 PSI.
There is a lesson there. When I see something modified or customized, I do not mess with it. If I am going to have a mod, I will do it myself. Also, what was he doing disassembling a charged PCP?!
RR
Exactly. Agree with everything you said.
RR,
I haven’t modded any gun to that extent, yet, so I wouldn’t have picked up on his “No Nos”, but it made an impression on me and I would have to give it some serious thought and educate myself some before I would trust threading tubes together to make containers for air at the pressures that PCPs operate. I think about the threads used in industrial hydraulics applications and the fine shallow threads that seem to prevail in airguns just give me the “Willies” to start with.
Halfstep,
It is good to be cautious with these things. Despite what some may say, including myself on occasion, they are not toys.
Materials, assembly techniques, quality control are some of the considerations I have when I decide whether an airgun will find a home at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns.
RR
Same here on free floating barrels. And same here on barrel bands.
I might move a barrel band forward or backwards on the Disco’s, Maximus or 2240’s to see if accuracy improves.
But it’s always as close back towards the breech as I can get.
I just remembered a ad that I believe is for H&N pellets in the Pyramyd AIR catalogs. They show a squirrel (BB did the sqerrial boy spell it right this time 🙂 ) sitting up on something. A guys is shouldering a gun. He’s say 10 yards from the squirrel but the barrel is so long it’s about a inch away from the squirrels head.
How’s that for free floating a long barrel. 🙂
GF1,
I remember that.
RR
I always get a laugh out of it when I see it.
GF1,
Hey you talkin bout me. I always chock my barrels keeps the shine from rolling down the hill.
Don
Benji-Don
Now why would you think that. 🙂
And barrel chocking. Is that something related to pumpkin chuckin. 😉
You need to read my reply above again. My tong is alteady bleading. Not sure if its from laffing so hard or bighting it to refrain myselph.
On the Maximus barrels I think there are four different barrels. I will go to my PC and post the part numbers. It’s like me and takes a minute too warm up.
Dod
Benji-Don
Post em all down here if you will.
And I do appreciate that. It takes time to pull em up. Know cause I dun it in the past.
But seriously yes. Post them if you will and thanks.
GF1,
Apparently you did not catch my humor above or maybe you dun did. Ok I give up anyway or else B.B. will need to censor me.
Ok here goes the four barrels, as best I can figure out there are four. I like the Hunter version but either will work.
Maximus Barrel Hunter Version .22 cal 6-GBMP22-001
Maximus Barrel Original Version .22 cal GBMP22-050
Maximus Barrel Hunter Version .177 cal 20-GBMP77-001
Maximus Barrel Original Version .177 cal GBMP77-050
If you want the barrel end for the Hunter version with the 1/2 inch threads it is 6-2250XL-001.
I will be ordering at least three barrels on Tuesday to test on more guns.
I may be looking seriously into a small lathe my large drill press only can do so much. I definitely want to make some upgrades for the Crosman 101 I just picked up.
On another note: I just checked the pump tube diameters of the Benjamin pumpers vs the Crosman pumpers and the Benjamin have a larger diameter. So there is a trade off on the volume of air vs the pressure between the two platforms. For Higher pressures I want a smaller diameter with more pumps. I think the new Benjamin 392 are using the larger piston with less leverage giving more volume per harder stroke. Any way I am just getting into this and will report back when I get solid information.
I will not be able to float the barrel on the 101 as it only has three locations that the barrel passes through and they are all very short like a barrel band. If I don’t get the accuracy I expect I may need to eliminate the muzzle band from the barrel but that wont be a solid breech like the Crosman long metal breech. Well if I get a lathe maybe I need to make a pumper from scratch. I like some of the features of My Apache Fire-Ball Texan also. Take the best from them all and make a pumper. Hey Crosman you listening??
Well you got me wound up without even trying…or did you??
Don
I plan or using my new old Crosman 101 with a Maximus Barrel to make my pumper I have always been wanting. If I need to buy a lathe to do it that is where I am headed. My 1322 with the Maximus barrel has the accuracy but I want a rifle sized gun with 10 pumps and around 850 fps in .22 caliber. The Benjamin’s have the barrel attached so they are out. The smaller pistion on the Crosman guns will also be a good thing. I will take more pumps over hard pumps any day.
Oh,
The barrel end is from the Crosman 2300s.
I meant the barrel end/weight on my 2240 is from the Crosman 2300s.
Benji-Don
The old basic Hardinge lathes can be had for pretty good prices now days. Check them out if your going where I think your going.
Thanks for the numbers too. I meant part numbers.
And what guns are you comparing pump tube size to.
The 392/7’s verses the 1322/77’s. Or the 100 series pumpers. I don’t know the tube size on the 100 series.
And what do you think it will take to get 850 fps with a .22 caliber pumper? The whole package I mean.
GF1,
Yep the 850 fps is the question I don’t know what it will take. Just getting started.
Like I said just getting into it. All the Crosman guns have smaller pump tubes from the 100 to the new 13xx’s at least the ones I have tested. The Benjamins all have a larger pump tubes at least from the 310’s on. I am just getting into the pump mechanics but will report back when I have more info. I think my old Apache had the most foot pounds but will need to check it out. The smaller tube in my opinion will be better for more pressure. It will just take more pumps for the max pressure. Like we said earlier all this stuff has been tried before but I am not sure that the optimum pumper configuration has been developed, for a working mans gun. The FX Independence is great but it Is not the gun I want to see. I think the Sheridan Supergrade is close but needs current technology to bring out the best, And I think the Maximus Barrel is the key. It can compete with the best barrels out there for a reasonable price. Maybe not win but for sure compete. I am not sure Crosman appreciates what they have come up with.
Don
Benji-Don
I’m definitely not looking for a pumper like the FX Independence.
But I am looking for a gun that can create enough volume of air each pump to surpass the velocity that the .177 and .22 caliber pumper’s develop now days. And definitely with a replaceable barrel system like the 2240, 1322/77 and Discovery and Maximus.
What it boils down to for me is a gun that needs pumped less. Gets a higher reasonable velocity with good accuracy. And can interchange parts with the 2240, 1322/77, Discovery and Maximus.
I think that gun can be built.
And like I keep saying. I would like it to be able to accept the Marauder breech and barrel and shroud. Along with the Marauder trigger assembly.
That way the pumper can be upgraded from the basic package from the base gun.
Seriously I have thought of this for a long time.
GF1,
You are not the only one to be thinking about this. There is a trade off between pump volume, pump effort, pressure reservoir storage and pressure that needs to be satisfied. A longer barrel will help but as some point you need a certain amount of air (volume) at a certain pressure to achieve the velocity you want with a particular weight pellet. That can be figured out given a particular guns valve and transfer tube geometry. Then all that is needed is volume and pressure. Once the volume and pressure is determined the pump volume and stoke is given for a certain number of strokes. The leverage and piston size determines the number of strokes and how strong you have to be to pump it up. I am saying I will take a few more pumps for max velocity if that is what it takes.
With the 101 pumping I have been doing, I already woke up with some sore muscles this morning. So just saying I take more pumps with more pressure and less volume over less pumps. That is where the leverage comes in. How complicated do you want the pump linkage? I personally will take a few more pumps than straining my milk or needing some complex linkage to pump up the gun. I think the 101 is easier to pump than the New 392’s and will develop more velocity but will need more pumps.
I am just starting to develop all this data so it is just supposition at this point. I plan on doing tests on the Crosman, Apache, and Benjamin pumpers to check this out. It is very difficult to determine the dead space on each of the pumps though. That is the key to their efficiency and the effort needed for a particular pellets velocity out the barrel. If you know the volume of air pumped each time it is easy to figure. But the dead space is complicated. It can be figured with something like water or hydraulic fluid that is not compressible. That is also not easy.
Anyway I will keep on reporting as I go.
Don
You can’t satisfy everyone so you got to satisfy yourself. Sorry I was listening to Ricky Nelson.
Benji-Don
Just like pcp’s when tuning.
There’s a balance to be achieved.
There’s always trade offs.
And if it is in your will. Which it is. All the better for you and all of us.
Go for it. That’s the best I can say.
GF1,
Thanks for the push sometimes that is what I need to take it to the next level. I have a machinist friend that lives up on the mountain by my cabin. Now if I could get him involved that would do it. He has built a few powder burners, and used to make rocket engines. I might give him an air gun just go get him to take the bait. But that would mean more time for me off grid on the mountain. Oh that looks like a win win for me.
Don
Benji-Don
Not really pushing I don’t think. You get like I do when something gets lit inside.
Once the fire gets a spark it’s hard to stop the flame.
But glad it got lit in this case. 🙂
B.B.,
Well while GF1 got me warmed up and you stoked the fire, I will give my vote on your 100.
If you get another group like your best one in the next 10 groups you will not be let off easy. That will be a one in a million gun and you will need to do a few more blogs on the gun, I know the new 10 meter guns can do that but this is not new and is using basic technology. You will need to keep going until you figure out why it is so accurate. I know it is the barrel but why is this barrel so good? That is the question. Please duplicate that group so this story can continue. That with the stock sights is phenomenal.
If I ever get my 101 to shoot like that, even with a modern barrel, I will call it a complete success.
Don
Dod,
You are probably right. I won’t give up.
B.B.
BB
I just don’t know.
Get better groups. Why?
How come this paticular gun is getting everyone riled up on accuracy at 10 meters?
The gun is definitely cool. But really 10 meters? Get it out to 25 yards. Skip the next repeat test at 10 meters. That will only say that it can repeat that distance.
And then if it groups good at 25 yards. Don’t test again at 25 yards. Go to 50 yards. That will tell you if yo need to step back.
Don’t keep trying to repeat what did work. Go beyond then if can’t repeat out there then you can step back.
And at the least. It might just surprise you at what the fun might actually be capable of.
Yep here I go. Just hit the post button.
What the (gun) can be capable of.
Not what the (fun) can be capable of.
And now reading again.
Maybe fun capable is what I should really mean in the first place.
🙂
That is where the next blog(s) reports come in.
And GF1 you realy got me wound up. Like Chris says out a here till later.
Take care and see you next year.
Don
Benji-Don
Next year? We are not there yet.
One more day to get what we can out of this year.
Times a fly’n as it is. And don’t know if I’m ready for another year. Well I guess I should rephrase that. Definitely ready for another year of life. But not sure if I’m ready for what it will bring.
But it does keep me going reading the blog. And I at least can relate to having fun and seeing what kind of things that could be in the future of air guns and other advancements that will happen.
Space and space travel seems to be the next big thing. Or maybe I’m even behind the times on that.
GF1,
On the question as to if I would consider a .177 repeater platform for the 2240,… all options are open at the moment. If you have an idea, toss it out.
My gut at the moment is that I would like to stay with swappable parts from the P.A. or Crosman site. The exception might be a true 1) power valve that can store more air and at the same time be more efficient in expelling it. An aftermarket 2) transfer port might go with that. 3) You mentioned something on ice maker tubing?
4) On power adjusters at the back end,.. is there a Crosman gun that already has that and would be 2240 compatible? I might be able to get the parts cheaper that way, but do the same thing.
Note: In all of my searches thus far, I have yet to see a 2240 hammer that also has a striker adjustment like the M-rod. Not that I am interested in that,.. I just found it to be interesting. Most adjusters only seem to adjust hammer spring tension.
Chris
Nope no adjustment like the Mrod that I have seen. But I could be wrong. Haven’t really kept up on it .
And yep that was the magical adjustment I was talking about the other day. The spring adjustment does control your shot. Well it’s the adjustment that is easily adjustable anyway.
And I like say is I like to keep it simple. In other words. For now the heck with the modding stuff.
Well sort of. Here plain and simple. Get a steel breech. Mount a scope. Get a Maximus barrel. And seriously. Get a .177 barrel and breech. That way you will get the best exsperiance our of your 2240.
In other words it’s the simplest combination that works.
You can mod up later. Other than using big black bold print here yelling at you. Really again trust me. Go .177.
Remember again it’s all cheap enough on these guns to upgrade to different calibers and such.
Should I say .177 again. Ok I’ll yell now.
GO .177
GF1,
Ok,.. ok,… you got me thinking,.. some more,.. again. 😉 What was that “teaser” about what if .177 if it was in mag.?
Chris y
You mentioned it was hard for you to load .177 pellets. So I was hoping if you got a breech that accepts a rotary magazine that you would give the .177 a go.
They are out there but some are expensive. They go from basic to even having shrouds for the barrel.
But search,
“2240 rotary magazine and breech.”
Let me know what you see.
GF1,
Nothing too impressive. BNM seems to be the go-to on repeater mods.. I looked at BNM for the Maximus, but decided against it. For one thing, it jacks up the whole profile of the breech. Add a scope, ? high rings and the whole thing would seem to me to be getting a bit top heavy. The Maximus balances and points real nice as it is.
Chris
Yep and I don’t think you mentioned what your going to use your modded up 2240 for anyway. Target shooting, plinking or maybe pesting birds?
At the house I lived at and here where I’m at now we always keep a bird feeder out for song birds. But the black birds and starlings and sparrows always try to chase them away. So you know what that means. Pest birds.
But my long barrel 2240 and 1322 with the 1399 stock and the Hawke scope was my go to gun for that. The bird feeder is about 35 yards out. I knew that both of those guns were accurate and I could trust them enough to take a shot with the pest bird seeing on the feeder and not miss and hit the feeder. Seriously they are accurate guns.
But like you mentioned the other day. You can load a pellet with a tweezer. And again like Benji-Don said the Maximus barrels are cheap enough from Crosman. You should get both calibers and both caliber steel breeches. Try the .177 barrel and breech. If you don’t like it I’ll buy whatever barrel and steel breech you don’t want. I have been wanting to put together another 2240 or 1377 with a Maximus barrel anyway.
Think about it. And seriously I will but the barrel and breech you don’t want. Deal? 🙂
GF1,
Use? Not sure. Indoor for sure. Plenty of 20-30 yd. squirrel (note spelling) shots from the front door. If I am shooting, squirrel (note spelling) sightings tend to be a bit scarce. Will have to wait and see how accurate it ends up being.
I wonder if the Friday deal works for parts and/or any “special” codes, for parts? As opposed to just air guns. I may call this Fri. and find out. I will be reviewing my notes again tomorrow.
A barrel band looks to be a must. Stock 2240 = forced droop
An rear adjuster may be an option off a 2300S.
Trigger/sear spring and adjuster from a 2300S might be good.
A stock port to take bigger might be in the mix too.
Chris
Then if it’s going to be used for (squirrel) out to 30 yards. Then you might not want the gun your building.
Maybe in .177 but .22 might be iffy.
Why? Cause the .177 will have more velocity for the distance and it’s a smaller diameter so it should poke through their tuff skin. And them son of guns have some muscle. That makes it harder to get a bigger diameter pellet in past the meat to the vitals.
So there I go again it would be .177 for my choice with the 2240.
And notice I mentioned birds with my long barrel 1377 and 2240. Not squirrel.
The bigger diameter .22 pellet definitely needs velocity to poke through. It’s like taking a hammer handle and using all your force to get it to poke through a piece of 1/4″ particle board. Then take a ice pick and try to punch the the same particle board using the same force. Which one will make through easier?
GF1,
I will be doing .177. On birds,… I do not feed them and rarely ever see a pest bird. I see plenty of “good” birds all year long.
TO ALL,
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Hey!!!!!, that is cheating! You have an unfair advantage. 😉
Happy New Year to you and your family as well,…. Chris
Siraniko
And to you too.
But it’s not till tomorrow where I’m at. 🙂
Halfstep
You asked above about the crown and there was no where to reply.
But yep the crown is the inside chamfer on the muzzle end of the barrel. And I use a #4 carbide center drill. I Chuck the barrel in the lathe jaws. And with the barrel only sticking out about a inch. I use about 600 rpm. That way you won’t get chatter in the chamfer.
The angle don’t matter. You just need say a .020″ or if your into meteric a half mm chamfer. The main thing is get out past the rifling in the barrel. And yes I deburr it with some 240 grit sandpaper. Then take some brown scotchbrite and use some pressure to kind of polish it up. And I usually kick the rpm way up to around a 1000rpm when I do the deburring and the polishing.
But that’s all there is to it. The main thing is the chamfer/crown is centered to the inside bore diameter of the barrel. That’s why I only stick about a inch of the barrel out of the lathe jaws.
GF1,
Thanks for your help.
Any reason a HSS center drill wouldn’t work? Which part of the drill will be doing the cutting ( don’t know the dimensions of a #4 off the top of my head)? Are you saying that you just touch off with the drill, then feed in .020″ with the head stock? Is the sandpaper and scotchbrite work done with just your finger tip backing them up?
“The main thing is get out past the rifling in the barrel.” I’m a little confused by this statement.
Halfstep
Here is a center drill chart. Look at the dimensions for the #4 center drill.
http://www.i-logic.com/utilities/CenterDrills.htm
Small diameter part of the drill is .125″. So it doesn’t contact the inside bore or the rifling even on a .177 caliber barrel. And the outside diameter of the center drill is at .312″ I believe it was. That way the chamfer will also be able to go past the rifling on a .25 caliber barrel. So that center drill will work to crown a .177, .20, .22 and .25 caliber barrel.
So the only thing that should contact the face of the barrel when your feeding in the center drill is the angle cutting edges. The small diameter does nothing. You could probably grind it off but I wouldn’t. You could get a step in the barrel in the wrong place if you don’t grind it off right. If you get that size center drill I’m talking about you will have no problems.
The big thing to keep in mind is you don’t want the small diameter on the center drill to contact the inside diameter of the barrel bore. That will damage the rifling.
And yep the sandpaper and scotchbrite is done by hand on the lathe. And definitely remember to keep your fingers away from the spinning jaws. I have seen people at the minimum get their finger nails ripped off and all the way up to broken fingers.
But here’s a crude drawing of what the chamfer should go past on the rifling lands. Let me know if you can tell what I mean.
GF1,
Thanks for the chart and I think I’ve got it now. You’re recommending that I run the drill in until the large cutting edge of the drill takes an angled face cut from both the land and groove parts of the rifling. If I understand that part right, going in a little deeper would just give a little more protection to the crown because it will be more recessed, but would make polishing more difficult if I over do it, right?
Halfstep
Yep you got it on the crowning. That’s how it’s done. 🙂
Halfstep
Oh and yes a high speed center drill is fine.
It just that I like carbide. It’s a stronger cutting tool and usually likes a higher rpm.
You might want to go down to 350 rpm if you use the high speed to cut your chamfer. High speed isn’t as rigid as carbide. It actually flexes or twists when. It’s cutting. That’s why you got to slow the rpm down on high speed to load the drill a little harder when it cuts.
But you shouldn’t see a problem either way. Cause your verily going to touch the barrel when you cut the chamfer anyway.
Halfstep and Chris
If you are going to cut the muzzle end of the barrel off.
I use a cut off tool on the lathe. It’s a blade that has a carbide insert in it that’s about a 1/16″ thick. That way you come straight in from the outside diameter to cut the barrel off. And the same thing. Only have the barrel out about a inch from the spot your going to cut off. Otherwise if you stick it out farther you could been d the barrel if you use a lot of pressure when you cut off. Not good then when it comes time to crown the cut off barrel. The barrel will be wobbling as it spins and you will chamfer off center to the bore. That’s where bad accuracy comes from to begin with on some crowns from the factory.
And suppose to say (bend) the barrel.
GF1,
Here’s something you might find interesting. I was messing with my Gamo Urban in the basement today, trying to see what fill pressure gives me the highest velocity with the really heavy pellets. Part of how they make them heavy is by making them longer than normal and if I understand what I’ve read here in the past, long pellets need to be spun fast to stabilize them, so that’s why I was doing the research to start with. Anyway, my tank only had 2500 psi in it so that’s what I started with and the first pellet I used was a new one for me – the JSB Ultrashock. I was shooting at paper to record the 5 shot groups as I went along, in case anything jumped out at me. The picture that I’m posting is four 5 shot groups at 12 yds with the gun vised. The brown cardboard part of the picture is the backer and it recorded all 20 shots. I think my fill pressure may need to go higher for me to tell where the highest velocity will be, but I think I still found a pellet that needs to be shot at a longer distance and I can hardly wait for it to get calm enough!
Here’s the pic. I think the spread and consistancy is pretty good, too.
Halfstep
Was that on your big tank at 2500 psi. ?
And I used them in several guns and different calibers and had no luck with them. They are good in at distances like you just showed. But they start opening up fast as the distance grows.
If you have good luck at 25 yards and out to 50 I might have to reconsider trying them.
And why more fill pressure? That will work if your on the lower end of a fill pressure. But if your on the higher end of the fill pressure and you don’t change any of the guns settings like the striker spring or transfer port size. The gun will get closer to valve lock at some point when the pressure is raised. In other words velocity should drop off.
GF1,
These are the .22 version. I was running on just the reservoir at 2500 psi. For future reference, that’s what I’ll mean if I say ” 2000 psi FILL or such and such FILL “. I’ll say “tethered to my tank at such and such pressure” if I’m talking about my simulated regulator setup. ( you might have scared me off talkin’ about that for awhile, though). 😉 The reason I will be trying a higher fill pressure is because, like Chris USA pointed out below, A) I want to see the point where the valve lock ends and B) I’d like to find a pressure that gives me a little up then level then a little down so I can get the most stable 20 rounds (2 Mags) that I can with those heavy pellets.
I just did a 2650 PSI fill and got this result.
Halfstep
Got it. And yep agree.
Got to fill higher to find the spot we’re the first 3 or 4 shot velocity’s are lower than the peak velocity.
Once you see that is when you check the guns fill pressure. That will get you pretty close on your full fill pressure.
Halfstep,
Yup,… you got it! 🙂
Halfstep,
Always a pleasure to see your fine pics and graphs. Yea, I would say higher fill. Catch that up swing, peak and decline. That ought to bring the spread down.
Chris U,
Uped it a little (2650psi ) but don’t think I’m in valve lock, yet. Glad you like the pics and graphs. Just posted another one above.
,Half
,Half
Valve lock will be (way) low. Without a reg.,.. the up/peak/down is the way to go. I forgot you were tethered. Hey,… it’s working!
Chris U
That last 20 shots at 2650 psi wasn’t tethered. That was just the gun’s reservoir. This thing is incredibly stable with this heavy pellet !
Halfstep,
Thought being,.. catch a 605-612 going up (10), peak,.. and then a 612-605 back down (10),.. = 7 spread vs 29 for 20 shots. Or,.. something to that effect. The graphs are nice.
Halfstep
I see you own a Gamo Urban. I have been considering getting into the PCPs and have researched all of the entry level PCPs at $300 or less. I have read many reviews which indicate that the Stormrider and the Gauntlet are hit and miss regarding quality. The Gamo Urban has many of the attributes I am looking for in a PCP. Those being hand pump friendly, light weight, compact, and accurate. I am very much interested in your experience with your Urban and how you would rate it as compared to the other entry level PCPs. I am wondering also as to why you are trying to use such a heavy pellet. I have read that the JSB 15.89s and 18.1s have the best performance in the Urban as well as the most foot pounds energy. I currently own a Crossman Nitro Venom gas piston in .22 and also a Diana RWS 34P spring piston in .22 which was reviewed here by B.B. and upgraded with the Vortec Kit. B.B. did a six part series on my rifle. He was able to achieve less than 1″ groups at 25 yards but for the life of me…I can not get under 1.5″ to 2″ at 25 yards. That’s just not going to get the job done for me. I need an accurate rifle to dispatch house sparrows from my blue bird boxes at 25 to 30 yards from the back of my house. So now I am considering going to the dark side to achieve the accuracy that I require. Would very much appreciate your input. Reviews are sometimes questionable and there is nothing better than input from someone who actually owns the rifle. The Urban may not have the most ft-lbs of energy but it appears to me to have the best quality of any of the entry level PCPs. Thank you.
Geo
Geo,
I have just one other gun in the $200 ish price range and that’s the stormrider and I certainly won’t be recommending it to anyone. I guess it’s cheap enough and will plink OK with a little pre-use repair, but after I found Urbans for $19 more I’m steering everyone toward it.
My other PCPs are the Gamo Coyote, which cost more and is the same gun as the Urban with a longer barrel, a larger reservoir and a nice wood stock. Mine is .177 and I much prefer the Urban’s pistol grip style stock over the traditional wood one. I have a tank now but I used to use a hand pump and the Urban is easier to fill because of the tank volume.The other is the Marauder in .22. It cost more also and has lots of adjustments if you’re prone to fiddlin’. It’s a good gun, no doubt, but it has not fulfilled my hopes for accuracy in the .22 version that I have. I also have a couple of Wildfires that are cheap and a lot of fun but they are more of a plinking gun and I don’t think they would fill the role that you want a PCP for. GunFun1 may be able to give you a better read on that, though.
I was shooting the Ultrashocks because they are heavy and heavy equates to more energy in a PCP. I’m just doing some experimenting with the gun and different fill pressures, but I thought the 12 yard groups that I got were noteworthy, so I posted them. Also, note how stable the velocities are. This gun doesn’t have a regulator and over a certain pressure range it acts as though it does. That is another big reason that I recommend it. This is an ongoing exercise and I will be using medium and light pellets also, at a later date. It’s looking to be a long cold winter and I’m mostly just killin’ time.
If you look back here /blog/2017/12/remington-model-33-single-shot-rimfire-part-1/ and go down about half way in the comments you will see some charts and graphs that I posted after my first 12 yard accuracy tests with the Urban. I’ll be putting up some 50 yard results later.
If you have any specific questions I’ll be glad to answer them the best I can but be advised that I’m fairly new at this myself. And I feel your pain with the springers. I can’t seem to shoot ’em either.
Half
Halfstep
Thanks so much for the relevant information. This is what I was looking for. I did go back and read you posts in the link you provided. There was a lot of good information there as well. I see you haven’t had the Urban very long so I am very much looking forward to your future posts on the Urban at longer ranges. I think you will find that many of those pellets that shot well at 12 1/2 yards will open up significantly when you go out to 25-35 yards. I also think you will find that the JSB 15.89s and 18.1s will give you the best groups at longer distances. Everything I have read indicates that JSBs always win out in the end. I know for fact that JSBs are very very consistent in size. I measured a sample of 20 pellets with a micrometer and posted in an earlier blog that my findings. All 20 measured virtually the same exact size. The RWS Superdomes were another very consistent pellet in head size. Crosman Premiers domed were all over the place.
Here is a link to my post where I did a pellet size comparison.
/blog/2017/05/the-beeman-c1-part-2-the-rifle-that-created-the-artillery-hold/#comment-397762
I have seen your posts here in the blog every since I joined so you may have already seen this.
Thanks again for all the great info
Geo
Geo791,
I just did a check and the Urban is now $299 at the place where I bought mine. The lower price must have been a Xmas promotion, although it wasn’t mentioned. I would still rather have it at that price than a stormrider at $200. It’s three times the gun.
Yes, I saw the price at $299. I also saw a price of $258 at another online store. Looks to me like it’s worth the extra cost over the others. The only other entry PCP that appears good is the Maximus but even that one has complaints of the fragile bolt breaking. No complaints on accuracy though.
Geo791,
If you go back and look at those charts you will need to click them and they will get big enough to actually read. ( if you already knew that just ignore me 🙂 )
Thanks Halfstep…very good evaluation and looking forward to future evaluations at 25 plus yards.
12 1/2 yards doesn’t really tell very much about the accuracy.
Geo791,
I posted those 50 yard results on today’s blog (1/3/2018).As of 3:00 pm it was at the bottom of the page.
I did want to mention to you, since you said your feeders were at 30-35 yards,that I did find a couple of pellets that would shoot 1″ at 35 yards from my stormrider. The bad news is that I don’t remember which ones. I got sort of disheartened after such poor 50 yard results with it and only moved in to 35 to see if it was going to be any good for something other than a window prop stick. If I run across the targets I’ll post those pellet’s names for you. I’m still not recommending it over the Urban, but since the price difference is greater than $20 now, it WOULD fit your pesting needs if you didn’t want to spend the extra cash for the Urban or one of the other guns you are considering.
Halfstep
Okay, I just checked out your chart of the Urban 50 yard groups…pretty impressive shooting. The wind would definitely push the lighter pellets around more than heavies. I was a little surprised that the JSB 15.89 or 18.1 gr didn’t shoot better groups.
Yes, my bluebird nesting boxes are 25-30 yards out from my back door. Even though the Stormrider might be capable of 1″ groups at 35 yards, I think I’ll pass on it because of the inconsistant quality and issues with the moderator blowing out after a few shots. Maybe they went a little too cheap on this one. Seems too from what I’ve read that the pre-production Stormriders may have been hand picked for evaluation. Don’t think I want to take a chance on a $200 window stick 🙂
Thanks for thinking of me when you posted the charts. I’ll be watching for more details. Wish B.B. would do a review. His reviews always seem to show things that other reviews don’t. He has a ton of credibility.
Geo
Ok ya all. Got a short one for ya.
After saying this you will for sure think ole Gunfun1 is crazy.
It was 8 degrees outside today. About a 5 mph north wind. Which is from behind me. So the house blocks the wind for the most part when it comes from that direction.
But here is something cool and I should say literally. I had my moded WildFire out two HPA fills in a row. Well I had to fill the 5 clips up inbetween the fills. But this is the other part if the cool statement. Absalutly no slowing down on the velocity. She was hitting hard from start to finish. And I was firing as fast as I could. Why? Cause it was freezing out. 🙂
But yep that’s why I like HPA over Co2. No slowing down velocity with HPA.
Chris you hear that? 2240’s can run on either if you get a hi-pak conversion. 🙂
No Hi-Pak.
Chris
Higher velocity on HPA.
Co2 you will get poi change when going from one temperature to another. Not good if pesting. You will have to check your poi with a warm up shot before actually shoot at the critter. But I’m sure you knew that.
And out of here for now. 🙂
B.B.
Have you done a review of the Gamo Urban PCP rifle? If so could you provide a link to the review?
Thanks…and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Geo791
Geo791,
No, I haven’t reviewed the Urban yet.
B.B.