by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The B3 underlever from China
- Chinese B3
- The B3
- The rifle
- How can you tell?
- Who cares?
- The Compasseco connection
Today was supposed to be Part 2 of the FLZ Luftpistole. However, as sometimes happens, fate had a different plan.
I started to chronograph the pistol with RWS Hobby pellets. I said I thought the gun would be slow, but I had no idea how slow! The first pellet didn’t leave the barrel. I cocked and fired again and it registered 67 f.p.s.
I tried deep seating the pellet and got one at 144 f.p.s. That was followed by two pellets sticking in the barrel. Obviously this pistol isn’t ready to shoot! If I had planned it I would have taken it apart today, but I had a couple errands that kept me from having the time, so I decided to move on to the B3 underlever I picked up in Weatherford Pawn shop a couple weeks ago. That was at the same time that I got the Benjamin 392 that I tested for you already.
I saw my first B3 advertised in an American Rifleman ad in about 1986. It was being sold by a company called Compasseco that I would come to know much better in the future. I think the price was $54.50, plus shipping. I bought one, more to see what a communist Chinese airgun looked like than anything.
I still recall the ad that said I could expect 850 f.p.s. from the gun in .177. That was impressive velocity for the time. It was years before chronographs proliferated, so I had no way of checking it, which may have been a good thing.
When the rifle arrived I was not very impressed. The plastic underlever cocking handle was cracked, the metal finish was dull and uneven, the wood was pallet-grade hardwood covered by a thick shellac that had an orange cast. When the gun fired it smoked and smelled like bacon frying.
I had already owned an FWB 124 before receiving this rifle, so I knew what a good adult air rifle should and could be. I didn’t expect the B3 to be in the same class as the FWB, but like I said, I was curious to see what a communist nation would put out.
First I must note that what I am calling the B3 is designated the B3-1 on Stephen Archer’s website. He calls the rifle I have been calling the B3-1 the B3-2. Before I bow to Stephen’s greater familiarity with Chinese airguns, though, I must note that the label B3 and B3-1/2 is used randomly all over the internet. Therefore, I am going to continue to call this a B3 until someone gives me solid evidence that it isn’t.
The B3 (top) above the B3-1. The white rectangles on the butts are safety warnings. Look at the rear sight locations.
The B3 I’m testing is a .177 caliber single-shot spring-piston rifle that’s cocked by an underlever resting under the barrel. This rifle weighs 7 lbs. 2 oz. and measures 40.25-inches overall. The barrel is a trifle longer than 16 inches. The pull is 13.25 inches, which is short for an adult rifle, but still within the acceptable range. That makes it useful for more people worldwide.
The metal appears not to have been polished and bears some grinder marks on the outside of the spring tube. The marks have been blued over, so they were there at the factory. The stock is the same pallet-grade hardwood I mentioned at the beginning. The finish is just as thick and uneven as I remember, but the color seems less orange. Of course I’m red-green colorblind, so don’t go by me. I did find some wood filler, which is a hallmark of the cheap Chinese spring gun.
Arrows point to an area of the spring tube that was ground before bluing at the factory. It’s difficult to see in a photo but it jumps out when you hold the rifle.
The wood finish is easier to see. This picture is in focus. That’s how thick the factory laid on the wood finish.
Most Chinese air rifles from this era have wood filler in the stock somewhere. This is actually a very small amount.
The test rifle has been abused by leaving it lying around. As a result, the metal is rusty and there are large dents in the stock. My B3-1 that I bought new years ago still has a deep blue on the metal and no visible rust. I don’t think it was polished before bluing, either.
How can you tell?
So, what makes the B3 different than the B3-1? The most visible differences are the sights. For starters, on the B3 that is the older rifle the rear sight is located toward the rear of the spring tube, where it is almost too close to your eye for proper use. It will be difficult for many shooters to use it. The later B3-1 mounts the rear sight just in front of the sliding compression chamber which is about right. When the rear sight is too close to your eye the notch becomes both too large to use and also out of focus.
But the differences don’t stop with the rear sight. There is a subtle but definite difference in the front sight, as well. The B3 front sight is an assembly that has been slipped over the barrel and anchored by a cross pin that’s drilled through the barrel. The B3-1 has the same front sight, but is a press fit without the locating pin.
The older B3 has this pin through the sight assembly, pinning it to the barrel.
These two rifles look so similar. Who cares about those little difference? Here is why you, as a collector, should care. The older guns had fewer safety features and were known to slip off their sears while they were being loaded. The sliding compression chamber would then slam forward and shear off any fingers that were in the way.
It is therefore in your best interest to know this and also to know the differences between the older models and the newer ones.
The rifle I’m testing has an anti-beartrap, so it isn’t the oldest B3 out there. I don’t think the earliest ones had the anti-beartrap. The seals were dry when I acquired it and I shot the first Hobby pellet at 370 f.p.s. After 10 drops of Crosman Pellgunoil, the velocity with the same pellet was 609 f.p.s. Once the oil has a chance to soak into the piston seal, it might get even faster.
I might tear into this one and tune it, just for the fun of it. They aren’t that easy to take apart, but there is a lot of information about how to do it and new parts are available.
The Compasseco connection
Most B3s were sold by private gun dealers who bought them for next to nothing and sold them at gun shows. So, when fingers started getting chopped off, nobody was responsible — except Compasseco. It became their problem, only because they were so large.
And they did something about it. They went to China and talked to the factory not once but dozens of times over many years, getting major safety improvements and then refining the design of the gun. They spread out into other Chinese airgun lines and the association worked to the benefit of both them and the Chinese manufacturers. The Chinese learned what American shooters wanted and the shooters got guns that were always improving. The airgun industry today owes a debt of gratitude to Compasseco for opening this dialog in the 1970s.
The B3-1 is still being offered for sale today. That means the rifle has been around for at least 4 decades and maybe more. Only the HW35 is older, to the best of my knowledge.
I plan to test this rifle in my conventional way and then perhaps I will have a go at tuning it. I actually have tuned a Chinese air rifle in the past and gotten it to shoot very sweetly, but it’s been a while.
230 thoughts on “Chinese B3 underlever: Part 1”
One could almost wish that they had converted the rear sight into a peep sight like Diana used to do. Maybe you should put a link to the old report in the new report? /blog/2010/08/industry-brand-b3-1-part-3/
I though about doing that, but I didn’t want to confuse readers. On the other hand, I will be making comparisons, so I still don’t know.
At the least I think they deserve a footnote in the history of airguns section.
Do the older B3’s have leather piston seals?
I sure hope they do.
BB—- I have a B3-1. The front and rear sights were out of alignment, so I removed them and I use a cheap red dot sight to replace them . I use a short wood block dropped in the action as a safety feature , when I load a pellet. I have replaced the breech seal with a plumbing washer, several times. It was the first air rifle that I bought, when I started to shoot air rifles , several years ago. I do not shoot it , now that I have better air rifles. I also have a side lever version. The same comments apply to it as well. ——-Ed
I have a B3 from which I cut off the original sight and mounted a sight from another gun up on the barrel block. I have used plumbing washers and short sections of 3/8″ rubber hose to make breech seals, but they don’t last very long. The gun is also inaccurate.
How did you mount your red dot sight?
First post here! Been reading for quite awhile though. I seen and shot my first B3 two years ago, fairly accurate rifle! B.B. when are you going to get back to the Kral puncher breaker? Or are you done with the series on it? I just purchased my first PCP, a gamo Urban, and now I’m hooked!
Welcome to the blog.
What a coincidence! You asked about the Kral Puncher Breaker and I’m scheduled to go to the range today to shoot it at 50 yards! I hope to have the last report next week. Our weather here has been bad and I have missed several range days as a result.
Do you have a scope mounted on your Gamo Urban’s? I bought the UTG compact scope and I having trouble getting the eye relief correct. I have everything moved back as far as I can get it.
I will upload a picture later. Does anyone have any suggestions on scope rings that help with this issue? I have an idea but I would like to hear your ideas as well.
Yes I do. It is a Mantis 3-9X32AO that came with the package deal on my stormrider. The rings are high mounts that came with the scope. If I understand you correctly you are having trouble adjusting far enough rearward. As you can tell in the included pic, I have all sorts of room left with this particular setup.
Halfstep and Geo,
The Urban is a great looking air rifle!
I posted some pictures on yesterday’s blog at the bottom in a reply to Chris USA.
I also wanted to point out that if you use the “Reply” link directly under one of my comments it will come to my email and I will respond sooner.
You know, I knew that. I posted some pictures of my Gama Urban on yesterday’s blog at the bottom in a reply to Chris USA. Check it out. Any suggestions as to what I should do?
I just looked at your pictures on yesterday’s blog. I’m going to try something here today to see if it works. I’m going to copy the link to your picture and post it here. If this don’t work post your last picture from yesterday. I think I see something. I’ll explain now.
To me it looks like there is light or should I say space inbetween the front objective bell and the barrel and breech. Not much but some.
Here is a suggestion on that. Take that front cover off for now. There are other front covers available. And a now I usually still clean my lens on the scopes as needed with the wiping clothe they give with scopes.
Next on the eye relief. How much do you have to move your head forward? A 1/8″ maybe? If not much you could remove that green butt spacer from the stock. That may be enough to do it.
And of course there are other options like Chris mentioned. New rings and such. But here is something also. Pyramyd Air has a 30 day return policy. I don’t know how it would work in your case. But maybe you could explain to them what is happening with your scope and send it back and get a longer scope. And that is why I usually stay away from the shorter scopes now. I had a few of the UTG Bugbuster scopes and the eye relief problem has occurred for me too. They are nice scopes. But they do limit the application for use.
Oh and nice looking gun by the way. Here let’s see if I can post a picture with the link.
Just so you know, that green thing is just a Oring that you can put on like a rubberband after the butt plate is fastened back on. It would have been a good way to eek out a little more adjustment though.
Hmm who would of thought.
Guess that won’t work. But at least you can take it off if your not crazy about it on the gun.
I myself would rather have it purple. 🙂
Whoops I meant Halfstep.
Geo and all
Click on the link and it will show the picture of Geo’s gun.
Hey wait a minute.
What about the 34. Don’t you have a scope and rings on it?
If it was me I would take it off and get it on that Urban. I will switch scopes around on guns if needed. Matter of fact that thought goes into account when I’m getting a new gun.
Yes, I have a Hawke 3-9×50 HD Sport on the RWS34P. It’s a pretty large scope and has the AO at the front. It’s a nice scope but would not fit the Urban without new rings anyway. The mount for it was donated by BKL and is an adjustable droop mount. B.B. installed that when he reviewed my 34.
I do like the new UTG 3-12×44 SWAT scope. I also like the flip-up lens covers, very nice. They are spring loaded so when you open them they pop up and stay. I bought a UTG 60mm wheel for the side parallax. This is preferable to the front AO and will be easier to adjust. Just wish the scope was a bit longer to allow for more front to rear adjustment. Yes, you can see some daylight under that front flip-up cover but it does touch the rail at the very front end. So I should have gotten the high rings instead of the medium rings.
I have a couple of options here. I could pay $45 for a set of 30mm BKL offset rings which would resolve any eye relief issues and they are high mounts so they would resolve the touching issue also. My other option would be to return the scope and rings and purchase the standard length with possibly the 1″ tube and UTG high rings. My goal was to keep the weight as low a possible to avoid top heaviness. The Urban is 6.7 lbs which is nice and light so I wanted to keep with that theme. I guess the UTG scopes are a little heavier, which I can accept because of the quality and ruggedness of them.
So that’s where I am at presently. I am not satisfied with the current configuration.
Yep I guess that drooper mount is one peice and it would go over the loading port. But I just looked at the picture in the link I posted that isn’t a issue on the Urban. It looks like a one peice mount will go right over the magazine. It looks like the magazine fits below the scope dovetail. Oh and that link I posted can blow up big so you can see things better than the picture like you just posted. Your picture you just posted don’t (zoom) in as close.
But yep that set up on your 34 will slide right on the Urban. And since the drooper mount is one peice if I remember right. You could even hang the drooper mount off the back of the breech for added eye relief adjustment. Post a picture of your 34 and we can compare the set up to the Urban.
And that drooper mount won’t hurt you either. That will still help you keep down clicks in the elevation.
I’m just trying to figure out a way to get you shooting sooner without have to order and wait again.
And of course looking at your Urban closer you could probably use one of these mounts. But again you will have to order and wait.
For the time being you can remove the rear mount and slide the scope back to get an accurate impression of where the eye relief is best for you. If you just need a little you can leave the rear mount clamped to as much of the rail as it can still engage. Just don’t tighten it too much. You won’t have the recoil that you are used to with your springer so as long as you don’t mishandle the gun and bang the scope around it should be fine for you to shoot a little to see what is going to give a good compromise position for bench and off hand shooting.
If it turns out that you only need a small amount of additional adjustment, do you have the ability to cut and file a new profile to the front of the rear mount that would let the turret slide further back?You may only have 1 set of cap screws on that over band but it should hold the scope OK.
Have you fired the gun indoors yet and if so, what is your impression of the noise level?
That is a option which I have done in the past.
But you got to make sure you start with rings that have 4 cap bolts and 2 dovetail clamping bolts so you can cut them in half with out worry of hitting the bolts.
But darn alot of extra work. If it was me that scope and mounts from the 34 would be going on the Urban. I’m thinking that after Geo shoots the Urban he could possibly be selling the 34.
But then again it would first be nice to see the 34 and how the scope is set up on it.
I’m not much of a trader or collector. For that matter I rarely buy anything used except my automobiles, but I would think that if Geo were to sell that gun, it would have more appeal as the gun that the ” Godfather ” optimized for one of his readers and immortalized in his blog. I wouldn’t ever sell it personally, and I would keep it in its current configuration.
I definitely shuffle scopes around if I need to, under normal circumstances, and can understand why you might recommend that, though. And you might be the only person here that wants to see him shooting more than I do.
With you there.
Geo’s setup looks like it has 2 bolts per ring. I know it would be some work but it could be done in a basic shop with hand tools.
Yes it could.
But you notice that when I asked Geo how much more he needed to move the scope back he never answered.
So who knows really what he has going on until he responds with a answer. Maybe he only needs a 1/8″. If so I would hang that much off the back of the breech. That wouldn’t bother me at all as long as the bolt can be lifted without hitting the scope ring.
So who knows right now.
I suggested the same thing, if for no reason other than to just see how much he needs. He could shoot sitting at a bench and standing off hand or propped in a doorway and he might find that what he has will work and that what is perfect in one position will require him to adjust his stance to get a good sight in some other position. Plus I want to hear from him on the shooting. 🙂
Reader Jerry C commented that he just bought an Urban. I don’t know if you saw his comment but he had his shipped to someone to polish the barrel and rework the trigger before he shoots it.( I guess before he even sees it) I can hardly stand the usual couple of days it normally takes to ship. I want the gun in my hands and shooting yesterday. Know what I mean?
Sorry it took me so long to respond. Yeah, the eye relief is a good inch forward of my normal cheek weld. The scope’s eye relief is specified to be 3.0-3.4″. Because of my strong glasses prescription, it’s more like 2″ for me. I did try moving the rear mount back off the rail a little but it interfered with the bolt. Also, I don’t want to do any kind of hack job on the mounts to make them work. I want to keep the Hawke on my Diana 34 because of the difficulty getting it dialed in on that rifle. Besides, like Halfstep suggested, the Diana 34 is special because B.B. reviewed and tuned for me. Like B.B. says, that one will be in my estate sale.
Now for the good news. I decided to just use the Urban “as is” and shoot it in my basement at 15 yards. It only took me about 5 shots to get on the 1/2″ target. I shot 5 more into that 1/2″ dot then changed to a fresh target and shot a 10 shot group. Wow! Very nice group of .155″ ctc. Now if I can get the scope setup correct I’ll be in business. Watch out sparrows, there a new sheriff in town 🙂
I have included a picture of my group for ya.
Yep exactly my thoughts again. 🙂
There wasn’t room above to reply to your question. I used my shooting table down in the basement. I have Caldwell shooting bags to rest the rifle on so I just moved my eye a little closer to the ocular lens. The lens should probably be an inch or more closer to my eye.
I have gotten a lot of suggestions on how to deal with the eye relief issue. I think the best thing would be to buy the BKL offset mounts which I am sure will give me what I need. I want to keep things simple without adding extra hardware. Too bad the mounts are so expensive…but once and done.
I am very impressed with the accuracy on my first ten shot group. There are ten pellets in that one hole. I couldn’t believe it! I had started doubting my shooting abilities after struggling with my rws34p for so long. Guess I’ve still got it 😀
Yep when I order something I want it yesterday. 🙂
And I myself I would never send it out to have work done to something first. I will always try it out before doing that.
What if it comes back and really shoots bad. Then you have to figure out if it was from the work that was done or if there are other issues with it in the first place.
I ask him to hit me back with what his friend does to polish the barrel but he hasn’t responded yet. It may just be the ol’ non-embedding paste trick that eliminates the break in period. That shouldn’t hurt as long as the crown isn’t damaged. I couldn’t take the wait though and if I had to pay for the service I would always be second guessing whether I really needed to spend the money or not. I can be tight that way sometimes. 😉
I would not spend the money.
I can’t recall when the last time I cleaned a barrel on a new gun.
I just shoot them. If I don’t think they are getting the accuracy I want. Then I just put 3-4 drops of silicone oil in the barrel and shoot. Usually the accuracy will come in. If it don’t then more than likely there is a problem somewhere with the gun.
See my reply to GF1 below. The comments are for you as well.
I say your target, That is some great shooting. My bet is that you are going to be very happy with the Urban. The PCP’s are so easy to shoot compared to the springers. I have never been very good with a spring gun.
Shoot the gun like it is and order some offset rings. As long as you are shooting you can wait for the rings to arrive and still get the gun and you broke in.
Glad you took the step to the dark side.
George if you have some medium Weaver Rings you could get one of these adapters. They work good and allow the rings to offset back depending on the orientation of the adapter.
Getting a good set of rings that work is the best though. The more parts the less secure the scope will be. It looks like a one piece mount will work on the urban, they are better than two rings in my opinion when they fit.
Not sure about the bolt clearance though. Maybe call PA tech support and ask them.
Ok now you got me.
How did you shoot your Urban “as is”.
Did you move your head forward when you shot the group’s?
Or did you shoot with the black around your sight picture from your head too far back?
Yep so far so good on shooting your Urban.
And you know me. I want to see what it will do out at 50 yards.
See bottom of comments.
I see from further comments on your scope, the front cap is touching the receiver/barrel. So yes, at least a slightly higher ring(s) would be in order. You can remove the cap/cap tube. You have my other ides in my other post on the other blog.
One other thing, since you are into the scoping phase of the set up,.. I like to use a piece of tooth paste tube in the center 2/3 of the (bottom half) of the (rear ring). The idea, not that you have it, is that it builds in some droop compensation and helps to keep the Elevation adjustment more to the lower 1/2 as opposed to the upper 1/2 of range. From what I read and if you are (sure) you need it further back, I would go with offset rings.
they make a set of ring that off set the scope to the rear about an inch and a half but not sure where to find the , u should gougle them they do not cost to much. thunder
use an offset mount
I know a guy around here that has at least two of these things along with a pile of other airguns. I picked up my 101 from him.
It’s been my experience that accuracy with these guns is always a crapshoot.. But at least they don’t cost a lot.
This guy was pretty proud of them. He is some Yankee that moved down here last summer. If he thinks he is going to sell much of his stuff around here, he needs a serious reality check. I plan on catching up with him this spring and see if he really wants to sell anything.
It was amazing to me that a well tuned b3 can shoot really great. I got one in a trade a while ago and I actually had a hard time letting it go. The combination of smooth easy cocking and being able to hit sugar cube size targets at ten meters was quite cool I thought. So if you tune it, they will do quite nicely with a not too powerful spring. Then all you need is a little luck with the barrel =-)
Quite the interesting air gun, (from the rather dubious quality stand points that you have noted), point of view. Other than the curiosity or collectability? aspects,… I fail to see much attraction. It should still be interesting to see how it does though. Getting inside is always interesting too, if and when you decide to do it.
Good Day to one and all,…. Chris
I am always interested in history of things. Guess it comes from living so much of it. Anyway, maybe you could trace more of the B3 history through the Chinese airgun industry. Now that the Germans are branding Chinese goods, they are more integrated with global airguns than ever. Jumpin
Aquick check of the CPI Inflation Calculator tells me that $54.50 in 1986 would be adjusted to $123.26 today. Pyramyd Air currently has six different new (not refurbs) wood stocked spring piston air rifles for less than amount. I presume some of those are superior in some ways to the vintage B-3 when it was new. Then again, if this B-3 is more accurate than you have previously found them to be . . .
Of course the economies of scale of a larger world population and, cough, cough, untethered trade will prevent retail prices from increasing at the overall rate of inflation.
I was just checking a search on the B-3’s and found them on Amazon for about $50 new so the price has stayed consistent for 30 something years.
Think I will pass on one though.
B.B. Does the crossbow maker we saw yesterday manufacture using additive parts making technologies?
In the 80’s, the begining of era of cheap Chines imports like the B3 airrifle,and Harbor Freight, was also the ending of conventional print publishing in this country, and the begining of the digital desktop environment we now struggle with. Is the same thing happening in the machine tool industry, and are there airgun manufacturers today who are embracing these new manufacturing technologies? Ford may now ” print ” 100 or more engine blocs or electric motor housings, at one time, with incredible accuracy and detail. If I were S.Archer and exclusive distributor, I would try to get H.F. to carry the damn things, B3’s that is.
This report brings back memories…
Back in the 80s, I had an RWS 45 in .177 caliber; it was my first introduction to spring piston airguns.
(the only air rifle I had previously owned was my Sheridan C-model)
I knew little about spring guns and recoil; I saw a “thing” behind the scope mount, and thought, “Why is this here?”
So I took off the scope stop, and the scope promptly walked off the gun (luckily, I caught it before it his the ground!).
A friend saw an ad some cheap Chinese air rifles…break barrels for only $19.95!
Good Lord, they were sad! No power, no accuracy, soft steel, horrible machining…I gave the gun away.
I bought some Chinese knives at the same time, and had the same sad opinion on their quality.
Fast forward to today…
Spyderco has their name-brand knives made in Seki City in Japan.
But they have a less expensive line of knives, Byrd, that are made for them in China.
I’ve picked up two of them so far, and the machine work, as well as the quality of the steel, is excellent.
Additionally, the Stoeger Arms X20S2 Suppressor Air Rifle I bought from PyramydAir
was of far better quality than that junk gun I got from them in the 80s.
So, the Chinese have been listening and learning;
the old Communist philosophy that “good enough is good enough” (wasn’t that a B.B. quote? =>)
has been getting replaced by the idea of striving for excellence.
Let us hope that trend continues.
take care, have a blessed day y’all and a nice weekend!
I had a 45 as my first springer too. I also bought one of the Chinese B3 underlevers, and my recollection is that I paid closer to what you paid than the nearly $55 that BB says his first one cost. I think I paid less than $60 for a Norinco JW15, I think its called. It’s a .22 bolt action rifle based on a BRNO and CZ gun as I understand it. It was a much better value at that price than a B3 would have been.
Did the Chinese workers remember to pack plenty of smoke into your gun. I know they did mine! 🙂
Oh yeah; that thing smoked like crazy! =)~
I think the quote you are referring to is, “Better is the enemy of good enough.” That is supposed to be a Russian saying, but I don’t know if it is.
B.B., a google search on “Better is the enemy of good enough,” turned up some interesting results!
Brainy Quotes attributes it to Voltaire: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/voltaire_109643
But the really interesting link is to a NASA document by that name:
Pretty cool! =D
In the mid 1980s I remember a quote: “Good enough beats best!” Usually enunciated as: “Gudenov beats best!” We never did find out if that was true. We did find that Capitalism and Democracies could beat Socialism’s worst form; Communism (National Socialism as a close second on the bad scale of human governance.). Off the soapbox back to airguns. The problem I currently see with all Western designed Chinese produced items is the tendency for the designers to lose control over production technique. I haven’t nailed down if the Chinese intent is cost or labor savings or if they think they know better than the designers on design and production of the item. I believe it is the latter since they have a great deal of “pride.”
Most people think the Chinese will do anything to make more money, including shaving the specs if they can. They do this by substituting materials once they get into high rate production. To work well with them required continuous monitoring, the same as with any production line.
Great report and I also enjoyed yesterday’s. I’d like to share a gem my son found in a local gun shop. He found a Remington model 34 in the corner it has a crack in the forearm and someone tried to blue a spot on the barrel otherwise it’s fine. I’m thinking we will get out with the 34 and a few airguns this weekend. It just goes to show don’t overlook the gun that isn’t gun rack worthy for 80$ we hope to have fun with it I know you and many here like 22 plinking thanks again for the great blogs.
Bill, I think you got a good deal on that; cool!
I want a full report on that gun! 😉
BB i have several under lever air rifles like the B3 an B3-1 that u mention i also have several other brands of under lever an all seem to be made the same way , my question is do u know of a pellet loader made for them so your finger is not traped in the bear claw if the lear lets loose when loading a pellet in, or do u know of someone that would be willing to work with me on an idea of a simple one i have a design for . thunder
Welocome to the blog.
I have never heard of a pellet loader for the B3, but one of our readers might like to work with you on your idea.
BB thanks for the response and info. maybe u know what company makes the pellet pen for air venturi that i can talk to about my design i think it might make a lot of people really happy. thunder
Sorry but I don’t know.
If you go to a craft store of any size, you will find a variety of “tweezers”. The conventional type that clamp when you squeeze them (and the non-conventional type) that open when you squeeze them and hold when you let go. The blades cross. Mine are 4 5/8″ long or 117 mm. They should work well enough to hold the pellet and get it into the breech. Then you could use the back of the blades to push it the rest of the way in,.. or use something else.
chris : thanks for the info , i have tried your idea it does work but requires 2 hands to make it work well, i was thinking of a one handed tool that works something like the pellet pen that air venturi sells. they get it from a companu in china. maybe u know how to reach that company? thunder
Got one of these years ago. They use a kind of a funnel shaped breech seal, which destroys itself quickly. Hard to find, I might add. Some owners have tried to use faucet washers or appropriate size, as the seals are hard to come by.
Sorry for any confusion it is a Remington model 34 22lr
I was wondering that. Should be a fun gun regardless. 🙂
Sixty seven fps must be almost visible to the eye. Chinese rifles have potential for tuning. My B30 was a wreck with the spring in three pieces, but my tuner, after replacing with a Maccari spring, got it up over 900 fps.
Thinking more about pulling power for a particular weight. I’m not so sure that hanging bodyweight is a good measure of what one can do. I remember the old Presidential Physical Fitness test, pioneered by none other than Arnold Schwarznegger. (I don’t know if they still have this.) The guys had to do pull-ups. But the girls, since they were not considered strong enough, had to hang from a bar as long as they could. This indicates to me that passive holding and active lifting are not the same. Does the crossbow from yesterday have some sort of pulley mechanism where you can rest at a certain point on the draw? Even without that, I suppose that the act of holding instead of pulling might work as a kind of rest.
On the subject of hanging from a bar, one might wonder what is the outer limit of what people can do. I saw a trained gymnast hold for six minutes before he dropped off. He was competing with an orangutan, and he won because the orangutan touched the bar with his foot and disqualified himself. But the orangutan was still swinging from the bar in the background while they were interviewing the gymnast over his victory.
I remember seeing that contest on the news,… as a funny side feature. The guy looked pretty whooped as I recall and the biggest irony was as you said,.. the Orangutan was still ready to go on and on. No match. The guy could have touched his foot too to make things even and then they could have kept going I suppose. Their agility is simply amazing,… the ape species that is.
If the human had touched his foot, he would have had no chance. He demonstrated the philosophy: “No such thing as a fair fight.” There was another interesting contest, run as a scientific experiment. A bunch of apes was made to live as couch potatoes, watching TV and eating junk food. Meanwhile, some elite level human athletes were put on a rigorous program of exercise. After several weeks, they competed in various events testing strength and endurance and the apes won easily. The ape bodies must be physiologically very different.
Interesting about human and apes.
How long do apes live is my next thought. Maybe not as long as humans because they have a high metabolism?
Just guessing. Never thought about it or searched it.
BB—Thunder—–Pellet loaders exist. I made several for my Diana Mauser 98 . I described the loaders in my posts re the Diana. You take a short wood dowel ( about 4-6 ” long), put a short piece of screw in the end, at right angles to the dowel, put the end of the screw into the pellet cavity. Insert the pellet into the chamber and withdraw the loader. If the breech snaps shut, make another loader. I learned to make these loaders from another air-gun blog that was written around the time that these B series rifles were chopping off fingers, so its not my idea. —-Ed
Halfstep—–Both my Chinese B,s have grooved compression chambers, so mounting red dot or optical sights is no problem. My underlever is a B3 version , not the later B3-1 ——-Ed
Chris–I tried several kinds of forceps (tweezers). The problem is that they are made of steel, and if the breech snaps shut, they might fly out of the gun in an unpredictable trajectory. I tried the brass forceps that are in my set of weights ( for my triple beam balance). They are too small and are not designed to grip anything. A wood loader will be crushed by the compression chamber, but it is probably not going to fly out of the gun. I know that you will say that you will be holding on to the forceps, but it will be a light grip to avoid crushing or damaging the pellet. Also, the gun wont give you any warning. It will just snap shut, SUPRISE ! ——Ed .
I remember your tip/tool. I would not put forceps into the same category as tweezers, but I do see your point and they might work just as well. Either way, Ol’ Thunder is just trying to not lose any digits in the process of trying to load his air rifle. It seems that it is a case of anything is better than nothing. Personally,.. I would never own such an air rifle. Nor would I sell one. Nor would I collect one.
Why not just keep a grip on the cocking lever? I think that is the usual advise even with the anti bear trap feature.
Very nice. You mention eye glasses. I wear them, but not when shooting. My understanding, (as it is), is that the ocular lens, when adjusted right, eliminates the need for eye glasses. This does however pose a bit of a issue when loading singular pellets, like on the Maximus. But, you have a magazine.
Maybe,… readjust the ocular and try without the glasses? Just an idea.
Timed bench rest competitors keep their eyes on the reticle the whole time and load each pellet first by feel, as beginners, and then move on to pure “muscle memory” where the fingers with the pellet go right to the groove perfectly every time. Loading for them is like a precise robotic, repetitive movement on an assembly line.
I can relate. I wear glasses only for reading. Scrip. The Maximus was a bit hard to load at first, but as like you say,… now it is by feel and automatic. I do not keep my eye on the reticle, but I can load and orient the pellet correctly every time now without looking. That is with un-shouldering every time. Another reason why I like repeaters.
If you are target shooting it is ok to not wear you prescription glasses, Safety glasses though should be worn.
I once thought I was going to be tricky and set up my scope on my 22 LR without my glasses on. Well I went squirrel hunting and guess what I had to put my glasses on to see a squirrel and then take them off to shoot. That got old real quick. So if hunting you better have the scope set up glasses if you are wearing them while hunting.
I brought this same thing up before. When your pesting or out in the feild I want to see what I’m doing behind the gun. In other words there is no time for glasses to come off or on. And why would I anyway. I want to see (everything) I’m doing.
No room to reply on your comment about 50 yards. That will be a new one for me shooting an airgun. I mostly shot my RWS34 at 20-30 yards and never even tried a longer distance. The Urban appears fully capable of shooting 1″ or less groups at 50 yards though. It will be a while before I can try that because the weather here in southwest MI is still a little cold. I will keep you updated on any new developments. I am going to post at the bottom referencing the BKL offset rings.
We all may get a surprise when you finally get you and the Urban out at 50 yards.
I said this to Chris USA some years back. He was only shooting at 25 yards or something. I said stretch it out. That will make the closer shots seem even easier.
But first you got to get that scope mounted right. 🙂
That was with the TX200. “Stretch out it’s legs”,.. I believe were the words at the time. I went to 50 and even 75 yards.
Ok so I got half a memory. 😉
But thinking back on that. Ain’t it easier to even shoot out at 50 yards after shooting out at a hundred yards now.
I have been doing some rediculous long range practicing with the .25 Condor SS. Well long for me. I been shooting out at 200 yards at a 1 gallon plastic milk bottle. I got it tied to a stick stuck in the ground and the bottle just laying on the ground. The only way I can see if I hit is if the bottle moves. Kind of fun though when it hits. The shot goes off. Then there’s a delay. Then all of a sudden I see the bottle jump.
But I still need more practice. I for sure don’t hit everytime. And you ought to see how the wind effects the shot. It can be a 10 mph cross wind blowing from left to right. I’ll aim to the left for what windage hold I need and the hit is still to the left. Shoot again with the same wind I described but aim dead on and I hit. So the wind must be blowing the opposite direction some where along the way. But interesting shooting anyway. 🙂
You, (of all people) need some of those wind indicators like Vana2 showed us all how to make with his guest blog awhile back. (At least) every 25 yards. I have the stuff to make 4 (25,50,75 and 100).
For my 25 and 30, which is still in the yard,.. I used some of those roofing nails that have 1″ orange plastic washer on them. Pressed into the ground, I can mow right over them. Very convenient to find my 25 and 30 yard spots when setting out a target.
I got my wind flag out at 50 yards. But if you think about it from my reply I just made. The wind is blowing multiple different ways out to 200 yards.
The wind is blowing to the right by me out at 50 yards. Then about a 100 yards the taller grass and such I can see blowing to the left. Out at 150 or so yards it’s blowing with a head wind to the right. And it’s about a 8 mph wind from what I can tell.
So now that I can see all those directions right now. What windage hold should I use?
I’ll make a shot right now and tell you were I hit at 200 yards after you reply with what windage hold you think I should of used.
Just sent you a pic of my reactive target. Maybe?,… if you are not too busy?,…. 😉
I just texted you a message about your picture.
And no guess on where the pellet hit. I made it easy. I aimed dead on. No windage hold only my hold over for elevation. From what I said above on wind directions. Where do you think the pellet hit?
Ok you got to guess or I’m not posting your picture. 😉
200 yards,…. 5 feet to the left and low. (that is my guess)
Nope. It hit did hit to the left but about 15 feet. And it hit high not low. And I used the same holdover I have been using. And had no head wind only cross winds on that holdover. So I think the head wind might of gave me a higher poi on this shot.
Point is it’s pretty much a guess out that far. You almost have to make multiple shots at a given aim point and see what happens. Even at a hundred yards. But at a hundred it is more true to what I get at 50 yards. It just hits off a little more out at 100 than it does at 50. So basically the longer the distance the more error will happen.
So it is nice to be able to reference the wind. But it’s just a guess. When I shoot I see the true results and have to adjust for them results.
And I’m going to check out your other pictures now.
I have a strong prescription and shooting without my glasses is not an option for me. I need my glasses for close and far distance and wear bifocal lens. I even have a separate pair of glasses to work on my computer which is in between my regular lens. They are kind of a weak bifocal if you will. I am leaning towards the BKL offset rings. I believe those will accomplish the need for a closer eye relief and are high too. Thanks for all your suggestions though. Will keep you updated on my progress with the Urban. Looks like a real winner 😀
I have one of the early B3’s. Thanks for the warning I was eventually going to get it working. some of the parts including the front sight with the pin are in a parts bag. I don’t think I will worry about getting it back together. The linkage to the piston was broke and I planned on making another one. It will stay in the closet now.
I also have a break barrel that looks similar and shoots pretty good with some thump but it also likes to slap me in the face so I don’t shoot it. Maybe a tune or some Almagard 3752 might help.
Both guns have sling mounts, That seems different. Here is a picture.
Here are the markings on the guns.
Both of my B3s have sling swivels, too. I think they are all supposed to have them.
Thanks, I thought maybe mine were different.
Why did you flip one gun upside down on each veiw?
My brain don’t like to flip things upside down. It verily does stuff in normal mode. 🙂
Sorry I was not thinking it through. I don’t seem to have a problem viewing things in any orientation so I don’t pay attention to it enough.
Flying a RC planes though I get the left and right and up and down mixed up all the time. All my planes look like they been through a war.
So it work for me and against me.
I can too. It just looked odd seeing it that way.
THANK YOU!! For informational pictorial writing! I do and have had a B-3 for several years! You have given me more info on this B-3 subject enough to get me to find it and drag it out! My B-3? Looks like the one on top, sight location, except front sight like the bottom one! Also my B-3 has rubber butt pad and sling holders! No real sight was on it when I got it at a throw away price! And had a dry seal, is very clean, meets your description, only wood much better and shoots very accurately and it’s just lot of fun! Around 650+ fps? Depends on the pellet! Thank you again! Semper Fi!
Just a thought. The use of the term “Real Steel” did not come out because of the use of air rifles but as a term to differentiate from the replicas that were being sold made from pot metal and plastic.
I use the term ‘Real Steel” a lot when I’m comparing an airgun to an actual firearm. Mostly in the way if replicates the looks, like you said using pot metal and plastics, and operational functions of a real steel firearm.
It’s really getting a lot of use these days as replicas are becoming indistinguishable from real steel firearms that in turn are actually becoming more like plastic airguns ?
I think it’s the “Real Steel” Sig Sauer P320 that just has a serial numbered metal chassis inside a plastic swappable shell.
Come to think of it, it resembles the insides of some Airsoft conversions to .177 BB pistols.
However it is also used as an adjective to describe Airsoft guns that have had all the plastic parts replaced with aftermarket metal ones, as in “That’s a real steel airsoft M11” even though it may not all be made of actual steel. It just had the plastic replaced for reliability.
It’s a slang term used by knowledgeable insiders on lots of topics. “Is that a real steel Mustang replacement fender or imported junk!”
You know that always gets me when I hear that.
They are all real guns. Just like a “69” Z/28 that you drive is just as real as s “69 Z/28 plastic model you put together.
Were you the reader that posted the exploding target shaped like a grenade the other day? Gunfun is trying to find that link.
I see that you have already reposted so nevermind. Thanks.
This brings back the memory of a break barrel .177 purchased by mail order from Compasseco in the late 90s. I don’t recall the model. This was before Gore invented the internet so reviews were not available. Had they been I doubt that company could have survived.
I’m not sure how to describe how bad it was. The amount of rust was shocking. It smoked when fired, sounded like something was breaking inside, and you could twiddle your thumbs waiting for the pellet to strike the target. I did not know about potentially dry seals needing lube but it would have been irrelevant. It got boxed up and sent back. At my expense of course.
I felt like i had an up close look at the horror of communism. What else could so completely strip away from people all sense of pride of workmanship?
Regarding the crossbow, sub 1 is mind boggling. I’m guessing that can only be possible in dead calm conditions.
Crossbows are interesting (anything that accurate is very interesting) but the limitations are significant. Particularly choice of targets, and the need to recycle projectiles.
I look forward to the testing.
Matt61—–Get a copy of –” the book of the crossbow by Payne-Gallway. It is a classic and should be read by anyone who is interested in crossbows. ———–Ed
Here are the BKL offset rings I am considering for my Gamo Urban to achieve a better eye relief and to raise the scope a little higher. They are only one strap vs the two strap UGT rings. They don’t appear to be as rugged but maybe a little lighter, and I don’t think the Urban really needs heavy duty rings. What do you guys think? I value your opinions. Thanks.
They look good to me. As you said, with a PCP you do not have to have the wider rings. They should do what you want. The sparrows won’t stand a chance this year! 😉
Get em. As long as you think they got enough offset. Other wise yep they should hold up nice on a PCP.
Oh and a quick note. They have silver I see also. The silver are nice to add a little “bling” to your gun. But anything that can grab the sun and reflect if your pesting will alert the pest. Since your gun is mostly all black except for that green o-ring that Halfstep mentioned. I would for sure goes with the black to to keep the gun stealthy.
The specs on the amount of offset aren’t given and the photos are too oblique to really even get an estimate, so I would talk to someone at PA before I ordered them. Based on the firing characteristics of my gun I think any mount would be strong enough, barring extreme carelessness when handling the gun.
What is your impression of the noise level indoors? That is where it will seem the loudest, especially if the area has lots of wooden and tiled surfaces in it. Does it disturb others in the house?
I went to BKL’s web site for the 30mm offset rings. It states that the overall length of the offset ring is 2″.
The strap is .6″ and the mount is .6″. Doing the math, the distance from the back of the mount to the back of the ring would be 1.4″. Also, the straps are .6″ where as my UTGs are .812″. So I would gain .2″ right there, plus the 1.4″ offset. So it would appear that the offset ring could move the scope back another 1.6″ from where it is currently. This should be more than enough to give the eye relief I need.
Well regarding the noise level, my wife always complained when I was shooting my RWS34 in the basement. When I asked about the Uban’s noise level, she said that she could hear it but that it was not as loud as my other airgun. I would judge it to be quieter than the RWS34. I would compare the Urban’s noise level to be similar to an air nail gun. I think the pellet hitting my target makes as much noise as the Urban and I do think it’s quieter than my RWS34. My wife did not complain while I shot 20 shots in the basement yesterday…and that’s a good thing 🙂
Thanks for that info. I have been comparing it to my Marauder, which is very quiet and referred to as the standard by some folks, and my stormrider which is not attenuated at all. It is much, much quieter than the stormrider and very close to the Mrod. The only springer I have that is silenced is a Gamo Coyote Whisper Fusion Elite ( say that 10 times real fast ) and it has the same silencer as my Coyote Whisper Fusion PCP, both of which are maybe a smidge quieter than the Urban because the silencer on them is a newer, improved version, I think. Since you have been shooting a unsilenced springer I wanted your view on it.
One other dimension that you may want to look at on those mounts is the distance from the bottom of the offset ring down to the shelf that forms the offset. It will need to be cut away enough to accommodate the turret of your scope. I would expect that the maker would cut it away enough to fit almost any scope but it wouldn’t hurt to know for sure if you can find that spec.
Good point. It is amazing what difficulties one can encounter when scoping something. All dimensions should be made obvious when marketing a ring/ring set. That is something that can definitely be improved upon within the industry/retail outlets.
For me, I want the front bell as low as possible to the gun. Vague descriptions of “low, med., high” are a poor substitute for actual dimensions/diagrams.
Of course, armed with that information, it then takes a bit of simple math. But hey,… I will gladly do it as opposed to spending another 20-50+ bucks for something that will work.
I have ordered the BKL offset mounts for my Urban. You had me thinking about the dimension from the bottom of the offset ring down to the shelf. I hadn’t thought of that at all. I just looked at the bottom of the turret on my UTG scope and it appears to be a fairly small distance below the scope tube. Maybe because it’s a 30mm tube. I looked at the graphic of the BKL offset ring again and it appears to have the thickness of the ring down to the shelf, guessing maybe .200″ or so. So I think this won’t be a problem. Good catch though.
I looked up those rings and it shows an offset of 0.6 inches. If you take off the back ring you can move the scope where you want it with just the front ring and then measure how much offset you need. I would check with PA tech also on the rings.
If you carefully dial out the parallax it will help allot if you don’t have a consistent cheek weld and keep you eye centered in the untill you get new rings.
Time to use some pellets.
Supposed to say keep your eye centered in the scope.
I don’t know if you read my reply to Halfstep but the BKL 30mm offset ring is 2″ long and the strap and mount are each .6″ long. Doing the math, it should be 1.4″ from the back of the mount to the back of the ring. Then I would get a little more because my UTG rings are .812″ long, so .8 minus .6 would equal .2″ more for a total of 1.6″ more movement to the rear. Here is the BKL web site from which I got the dimensions. http://www.bkltech.com/BKL-30mm-Offset-Dovetail-Rings-p/bkl-374.htm
Thanks for your comment.
Geo, I think you got it right.
I did not refresh my view and missed your reply.
I believe I was wrong on the 0.6 offset on the BKL rings. I looked on another site that listed the off set. I got to thinking that I better check the BKL site.
BKL lists the overall length at 2.0 inches and the ring and clamp both at 0.6 inches. That would put the offset at 1.4 inches front of clamp to front of ring.
Better ask PA.
Here is the reactive target Chris U made. He asked me to post the picture.
Mucho thanks!!! As you can see, this is mounted on a piece of 2×6 lumber. The blocks are L shaped and 3″ x 3″ and 3/4″ thick (milled block). To the bottom is the target head, three 1 1/2″ fender washers mounted on a 3/16″ x 4″ screw. The screw is spring loaded to hold pressure against the cartridge (2 pictured on top).
The L blocks are mounted with 2″,.. 1/4″ lag bolts. The cartridge, as you can guess, goes on the inside of the upper L block. The 2 blocks are held apart by conduit couplings. All thread is 1/2″.
So,… how did I control the cartridge from backing out under firing? Between the 2 blocks is a piece of 11 ga. steel plate (1/8″ thick), that backs up the cartridge across the center. The “pin”, rides atop the plate.
What holds the plate in position? There is a wood block underneath the plate, with 4 drywall screws to set precise elevation of the plate. On the left is a 3″ drywall screwed into the base and on the right is a short drywall screw into the block.
What holds the block in place? On the left is a/the 3″ drywall screw and on the right is a flip up/down spring loaded lever.
The block and the plate must be removed to reload,.. in that order.
That is it. It takes 15 seconds to reload a new nail gun cartridge. Simple and solid.
Sorry for the poor pic. I got me a dumb phone.
I wrote my question below before you hit post with your explanation. I’ll read your description and will probably suss it out from that.
Nope, I read your description three times, but as you’ve probably already guessed, I’m pretty slow.
What part of the target does one shoot at? How is it reactive? (In other words, what parts move when it is struck by the pellet?) Is the point to shoot the device into pieces? I once shot up a dead boom box with a slingshot — now THAT was a reactive target!
I guess I’m just missing something obvious.
The screw,.. has 3 fender washers mounted on the head of the screw. That is at the bottom of the pic. That is what the pellet hits. That drives the pin forward into the cartridge. The cartridge is held in the upper block. Only the pin moves, very slightly. Nothing breaks apart. It just goes bang. This is a top view, at a slight angle.
O.K., I think I understand now. It’s an exploding target using a staple gun .22 cartridge.
Nail gun cartridge’s or blanks.
And now I understand also how it works.
Nail gun cartridges. Low = 1 and High = 4. The ones shown are 3’s. I did try it out the other day 1x and the sound was a bit subdued,… but it was pointed into the woods.
I was going to cut the over length on the all-thread, but decided to leave it as an “accessory” mounting apparatus. Like maybe a soup can with flour in it? That would make one heck of a big POOF! 😉
To bad can’t get a action video from your phone.
If you text me a video I’ll link it on you tube and post it.
Buddy ole pal. A bit to over thought I’m afraid.
I’m going to post two pictures in a minute of what mine would look like if I can get around to making it.
And the other day you and Halfstep was talking about firing pins. You don’t need a firing pin. Trust me if the hole diameter of the back of the cartridge is exsposed it will set off the charge when hit. Remember the nail cartridge or blank is only a bit bigger diameter than .22 caliber. So even a .177 pellet would set off the cartridge when hit. It does not need to be a spiked pin.
The pellet will hit the cartridge with more force than a pin. Plus the pellet will cover a bigger area. So all the pellet needs to do is smash some pet of the rim to ignite the primer.
I’m going to post two quick drawings I made of what my reactive target would look like. And of course like the mega boom bottle reactive target someone will catch this and make what I’m going to post.
Front of target.
Over thought? I prefer to think of it as (over built) and (safe). As for hitting the end of a .22 nail gun cartridge with a .22 pellet,… no thanks. This is meant to be used at 25-50 yards and 1 1/2″ target area will suffice nicely for that. Plus, the spent cartridge is going nowhere at all.
Yes safe on your design.
But look at what I showed with my target.
The opening in the front of the target is smaller than the rim of the cartridge. Plus the cartridge could be off set so only half of the back of the cartridge is exsposed to the hole that the shooter shoots at.
On the back side of the target that the cartridge sets in is smaller than the rim of the cartridge. So when the pellet hits the cartridge it won’t knock them out.
And my whole target would be made from a 1/8″ plate. The back angled lip that the cartridge sets in would be welded to the back of the target plate. That cartridge will go no where.
Ok,.. you have your idea, and I have mine. I was fortunate enough to find the materials at work. And,.. as I usually do,.. it was all thought out ahead of time and worked the first time.
The only weak link is the fender washer target head which “tweaked a bit” upon impact. I can brace that, No problem. Other than that, it works as intended, is safe and easy to use.
I would not say that it is anything that is marketable though. It weighs 8#. Like I said,.. substantial. Hey,… you were the one that warned me on the “what if’s”. I would not have built it if I had not found the appropriate components.
Better safe than sorry,.. as the saying goes.
I like your idea. My question is why you don’t see more targets like we are talking about.
Do people think they are unsafe. Maybe they think they will be used the wrong way. Which can be done with alot of things if you think about it. So who knows on that question.
But here’s something for you about size and distance to target with my design.
How about this. Take my design and add a paddle that’s hinged like on the back of a feild target that gets knocked down. Then have a pin on the back of the paddle that rests on the rim of the cartridge like how my target is.
That way the cartridge would no way be exsposed and you could even change paddle size if you wanted like Codueces target.
Hey matter of fact. Coduece where you at. Maybe you might want to start making and selling my targets.
And to think more about it since I like to mod maybe I could modify my squirrel feild target to accept one of these cartridges like I said. It would just have to be turned around backwards.
Now see what you got me into Chris. 😉
Why? Because they have some power and have to be used in a responsible manner. Not everyone will do that. Besides, like you said, that other one you noted used blanks. So,.. there is already stuff out there like it.
And you say that I “over think” things???? 😉 As for Coduece selling targets,… Hey!,… I was first in line! 😉
Yep but that was in Europe. And thinking about it now. I have not searched for these type of targets. So maybe there is USA targets made like this.
I kid you I was thinking about making some for my own use.
And on the over thinking. I was just quoting what you said about yourself in past subjects. 😉
And maybe Coduece could add to both of our design and sell them. Wouldn’t bother me. And I would be happy if he made me a couple of each design. I’m just here for the fun of it. Not to get rich ya know. 🙂
Here like this.
That is like that other one that used the toy cap gun rings. Remember?,…. the fellow had it hanging on the side of a barn or shed. It had the flip up cap like you have drawn.
Quit talkin’ and get to inventing some stuff! 😉 I did mine.
Chris I just emailed you.
Heck thinking about it more.
It would only need a hole a little bigger than the diameter of the firing pin on the paddle for the pin to pass through the front of the target. That way the cartridge would no way exit forward.
I new I should of saved the link someone posted the other day.
It was a place that sold reactive targets like we ate talking about. Well more like I’m talking about. It was from Europe some where.
It was a silhouette of a hand grenade like a feild target. But it had a bunch of holes all around it that you but blanks in Grom the backside. So you had multiple shots before you to exchange the cartridges.
Oh and my design would at the most only take 2 seconds to reload. Slip one up then the other back down in.
You are still trying to hit a small object, with a small object. I did not want that. Maybe ok for very close range, but I wanted a 25-50 yard reactive target.
I posted in the wrong place above.
You already answered above.
This is probably the link: http://reflextargets.co.uk/shop/4587957332/grenade-.22-9mm-blank-target/10993454
It uses .22 and 9mm blanks.
Strangely or coincidentally the designer and marketer is also named Chris.
Yep that’s it. Thanks.
And Pyramyd Air even sells 9 mm blanks.
Chris USA and Gunfun1,
If you’ve never seen The Wire, here’s a great scene involving a murderous gang member shopping for a nail gun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_UuImPL4E
We are not talking about that. I knew someone go the wrong way with this.
Think of it as a feild target that goes pop.
Nothing will exit the target on Chris’s design or mine.
Wow,…you were quick on that. NO,… we ain’t going “there”. B.B. may want to review the link for some rather non-family friendly verbiage and maybe take it down. Just sayin’ there Homie,…
I did a reply below. Maybe you should read.
I know you were just showing that video. But with these targets me and Chris are talking about. Nothing is suppose to exit.
That’s the whole point a reactive target that don’t react the wrong way.
I am often slow to have something gel in my head, but I am unable to make visual sense of the object in the photo. Which surface is one to shoot at? The wood? The bolts? How does it react to being hit by a pellet?
Sorry, I am dense, as I explained.
Ok I see you realized that I only posted the picture for Chris.
No, I read that part, but I can’t figure out how it works or what one shoots at.
I told that to Chris when he texted me the picture. He said he would explain.
I said I needed another picture showing what it looks like when you shoot at it.
Or is the picture not of the target but of the gun? He describes a cartridge being installed somewhere.
I will probably be embarrassed when I see how it works.
I don’t know. I’ll have to see when he explains.
And I just posted two drawings of what mine would look like when I make mine.
I’m confused by which order your comments are in so I am reposting that pic with some notations that may help. It will also verify that I know how it works if ChrisUSA doesn’t contradict me. If you have figured it out just ignore this.
Well,… aren’t you the talented one? 😉 Yes, that is how it works. Very simple.
One thing of note, the spring preload can be varied. IN THEORY,… that would/could allow for less of an impact (fpe) requirement. If 5# is already there,.. and it takes 10# to do the job,… then only 5# of additional fpe is required.
We got us some super smart folks here and someone will probably blow that whole concept out of the water,… but till then,… that is my story and I’m sticking to it! 😉
While it is not obvious in the picture, the front L block and rear L block are identical in dimension and mounting.
Ok and here is my disclaimer.
By no means do I recommend anyone trying these reactive targets without being aware of posabilties that could occur in multiple ways.
The original intent was to be used as a fun target that goes pop when shot by a pellet. And of course the target should be used in a sensible way as intended.
And I’m sure Chris could chime in on this. Fun is what this was all about. Ok that’s that. On with our air gun stuff.
Yup. Safe fun. Whatever it is your “playing with”,.. respect it.
Yep respect and understand.
Well I’m going to go pop some balloons with my air guns. And here I go. 🙂
No doubt this is built with safety in mind. I think I could hit your target, I’m not so sure about GF1’s. 🙂
I added some notations to your pic to explain its operation. I hope you don’t mind. ( and more importantly I hope I’m right about how it works!)
Did you not read where I said a paddle could be placed in front of the target with a firing pin that hits the rim on the cartridge.
The hole in the front of the target would only need to be a little bigger than the diameter of the pin.
That way you could have the paddle on my target 5′ in diameter if you wanted. Like Chris’s target also.
It’s just my design is much simpler.
Here’s a refresher. Remember the paddle covers the hole to the cartridge. And the target paddle never needs adjusted for how hard it hits.
Yeah, I saw all of your refinements and understand them completely. I was expressing more how I felt about your original design with just a hole to shoot through. When I saw that I just thought, ” Ol’ Gunfun must think everybody shoots at least 2 hours everyday. That’s one tiny target!”
I like the version you came up with for regular people.
Oh and shame on people that don’t shoot 2 hours everyday.
And of course just joking. The thing is shoot as much as you can when you can. Trust me it pays off.
I was rapid firing my Gauntlet today. As fast as I hit a target I was moving to the next and loading the next pellet for the next target as I was moving with the bolt. And have to say the big bolt ball is great for that And mind you I never missed a shot out of that 10 round mag. And that was moving as fast as I possibly could.
And regular people. Come on. You only do what you do. And what’s wrong with being a irregular person. 😉
And don’t even go there. 🙂
Chris, GF1, and HalfStep,
I eventually got the idea of the target into my thick skull. And I forgot about the verbiage in that clip. Sorry about that. I think it is socially progressive in its subtext, however.
That whole scene is hilarious AND smart in that it shows folks of two totally different walks of life understanding each other perfectly and appreciating each other’s knowledge, and it disputes the common notion that different people have little in common, so to speak. Most people love Snoop’s respect for the little .22, saying they “get up in ya like a pinball, rip [you] up.”
That is the favorite scene of many a “The Wire” fan.
No problem. I found it humorous. My schedule and basic satellite (Direct TV) prevents me from following any series and such. They never were much my thing anyways. I do not understand how people can binge watch an entire season in 1 sitting.
Somewhere in here I commented about the pin being spring loaded to Halfstep. Not only will the pin hold to the rim, but maybe reduce the fpe requirement by having the pin already pre-loaded with pressure. (needs 10 fpe, has 5 built in,… need 5 more fpe) ,..just as a “theory”.
One other design factor was the (weight) of the pin assy.. Obviously something heavy would absorb all of the energy and not move. Lighter will allow maximum energy transfer and movement, but may bend. The 3/16″ bolt I used appears to be just right.
And sorry for the crude drawing.
I ain’t got a program on my phone yet that will do drawings. Should I say yet.
Oh well that’s how we would do it in the old days. Drawing that is. Well the other things too. 🙂
Your sketches are fine. I took Mechanical Drafting for 4 years in the Trades High School I attended as a teen before my life took me on a different road, so I’m a fair judge. You make yourself understood and that’s the main thing.
Well how about that. I took mechanical drafting and machine shop till I graduated high school.
Then I started working at a machine shop after I graduated high school. And been in that ever since.
Ain’t it amazing how life turns.
Here is an update on my Wildfire. It is still holding air and I have been filling it to 2000 psi no issues. That is the good news.
The bad news is I am getting about 1.5 inch groups at 10 yards with all the pellets I have tried.
My next step may be to replace the barrel with the one in the parts gun I picked up. Not sure yet because I do not want to take it apart and have it start leaking again.
I pushed a couple of pellets in from the muzzle and it seemed like there could be something catching the pellet right at the crown. Can’t tell easily though pushing the pellet in from the muzzle. It is hard to see the crown with the barrel inside the tube.
I also made a grove inside the plastic sight tube and put an o-ring in it to hold the barrel snug. That did not make any difference.
I can get about half the pellets from a 12 shot group in a nice small group but the rest spread out. And it seems to shoot up to 4 in a tight group and then start with the fliers. Then some more in the same group.
I don’t think it is me because I can keep the crosshairs or the dot sight centered and not moving more than a quarter inch from before the trigger pull to after the pellet strikes the target.
I know Gunfun1 and B.B. have had good accuracy with their Wildfires. Anyone else have any experience with one.
That is just wrong at 10 yards.
My WildFire or 1077’s I had in the past can make one hole groups at 10 yards. Even 30 shot groups.
Something wrong somewhere in your case.
My 1077 is fine and has good groups at 20 yards.
Sounds to me like the barrel is allowing the pellet to clip the front sight.
People mod their 1077’s so the barrel don’t move in the outer housing.
I have never had that problem yet on my 1077’s I have had or my WildFire.
Maybe that’s something to look at.
There is too much clearance for the pellet to clip the front sight.
I tried to tighten up the barrel with the o-ring between the barrel and the tube on the front sight. It did not make any difference in the groups but did take all the play out of the barrel. Either the whole housing is moving around or there is something wrong with the barrel.
I guess I have no choice but to get back inside and try the other barrel. I can also inspect the original barrel better if I take it out of the gun.
Not sure why the gun groups for a number of shots and then scatters flyers all over. if it is the barrel I don’t see that happening. If it is me I could see that happening. I don’t think it is me.
You know what. If the cylinder is not indexing all the time that could be it. I will try a new clip and cylinder tomorrow before I take it apart. I once had a revolver that shot kind of like this and the cylinder did not always index at the same point. Just a thought but may keep me from taking the gun apart.
Yep on the clips.
Maybe the front and back of the barrel got damaged with all the taking apart you did.
Where you taking account for that when you was moving things around when you was working on the tube and valve?
That is a good point, I was focused on the transfer tube and the valve. The barrel had to take care of itself. If a new clip/magazine does not make a difference I will be going back inside. I have tried many different cylinders so that is not the issue.
Well I hope you don’t have to put your WildFire under the knife again. How many operations can it endure before it’s out of life.
With plastic parts you only get so many chances before the are ruined.
Right on plastic stuff.
I just remembered the accuracy was the same before I took the gun apart the first time. So if it’s the barrel it was that way from the factory.
Hmm barrel or like you say the clips.
I’m thinking more towards the clips.
But why would your gun not advance the clip like other guns?
I was shooting my WildFire and remembered something. And I have brought this up in the past.
I more or less deep seat the pellets in the clip. I have tryed a Bic pen cap as well as just pushing with my finger.
The main thing is to make the skirt of the pellet (below) flush when you load it in the hole in the clip.
Maybe on this type of design and lower pressure to the barrel might not seal the skirt right. And I’m sure if the skirt was exsposed it would scrape the skirt as the clip indexed.
Sorry should of thought of that earlier. It just didn’t come to mind. Not that it’s the problem. But just so the thought is kept in mind.
See my latest results at the bottom of the blog. I rememberd you deep seating your pellets. It made not difference in my gun because its accuracy was so bad small improvements did nothing.
You might try shooting the first clip at one target then the next clip at a second target and so on and see if the groups improve as the velocity goes down. Some times slower gives better accuracy.
If you haven’t already tried it, use the mag and clip from your 1077 in different combinations to see if that gives better results. I know that in some informal testing that I have done with my 2 Wildfires and 3 1077s using the 8 magazines and 20+ clips that I have that accuracy is impacted by the mag and clip combo being used at the time. That has proven true with the Colt Python BB revolvers that I have as well. Plastic parts manufactured for guns in this price range are just not as precise as the steel parts doing the same job in a quality firearm. And there is no hand fitting and adjusting that is sometimes needed to get a firearm to function reliably and repeatably.
Here is a chart of the pellets that shot best from one of my Wildfires at 12 yards. They are 10 shot groups and were fired using the mag and clip that came with the gun, as near as I can recall. I stopped doing much accuracy testing on these rotary clip double action type guns because the tests had little relevance when other mags were used in the gun and repeat tests with the same mag in the same gun gave different accuracy results. This has just been my experience and don’t pass it on as gospel unless you undertake your own testing first.
See my results below.
Thanks, I saved a copy of your spreadsheet screen shot to my Wildfire folder.
Found out some more information regarding the Sterling rifles. 1) The company seems to be remaking itself from the original Sterling Armaments Company but this time as a boutique air rifle maker. 2) Another interesting rifle they are developing is a remake of the Webley Mark II Service this time they are aiming to have it output 11 fpe.
Youtube has a clip featuring both: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCM3k_pZAbE&t=913s
Yes, I heard that. Tony Belas has joined them. Tony was with BSA many years ago, and I think he is directing their new emergence. He knows the airgun world and what airgunners want, so this should be a company to watch.
Thanks for posting that link. I was unaware of that channel and have added it to my subscriptions. i decided to begin with part one of the series and have already gained some insight into how we, as Americans, view regulators in a different light than Brits. I’m gonna watch them all.
Well, this might get buried here, but…
I found a Beeman Kodiak .22 in a pawnshop, and when I got it home, discovered it won’t cock. I took the stock off and the main sear doesn’t raise far enough to latch. I have attempted to cock it with the stock removed, to verify that there isn’t any stock interference, a problem mention by other owners, it made no difference. It will latch if I help it, but no cleaning or lube (no disassembly yet) has helped. Any ideas, known things to look for? I also have not found a place that services these or sells parts for them in the USA. Are these an orphan, difficult to service or get serviced? I found a diagram for the trigger assembly, and an online manual, but don’t want to disassemble it if there isn’t a place to get parts or service.
Just a guess, but I would bet that a spring up in the trigger mech. slipped or broke. The one that holds the piston latch rod/sear/catch (typish thingy). A pure guess, but that is the first place I would look. It could be that someone was in it already and left parts out or reassembled it wrong,.. too.
I have a Beeman SR1 that was doing the same thing. Even if I got it to cock, sometimes it would slip off the sear – very dangerous. I asked everyone I could email what to do, even here. Everyone’s advice was to not shoot it. So, I bought an SR2 with adjustable trigger and decided to dig into the SR1 to see what I could learn or salvage. Seems the automatic safety was keeping the sear from latching fully. I removed the safety and it worked wonderfully! Since I was never a big fan of auto safeties, this was no loss and now it outshoots the SR2.
Larry from Algona
Interesting. The safety pin can be left out on the Maximus to lighten the trigger pull, but will also leave the gun in the condition that the hammer sear will not engage,… as the safety pin’s diameter adds to the sears spring tension. Not exactly the same,.. but sort of related. The safety is not automatic on the Maximus by the way. Interesting.
Your rifle may be missing some parts. Or the trigger return spring is broken. Or something is holding the sear from engaging.
Using the diagram that I found on line, it seems to have all the springs, in the right places. I can get it to cock if I lift the big sear at the end of the stroke, and the trigger works normal then. Anyone know anyone who services these big rifles, or sells parts?
How much “help” do you have to give it. If it is just a little, you may have a rifle that someone shortened the trigger return spring on in a attempt to lighten the trigger pull. If that is the case a stronger spring may fix you up. You have a gun that you can’t use at the moment so that is the best time to go exploring. You probably won’t make it not work worse (forgive that sentence Mr. Fox, wherever you are) by taking it apart enough to stretch the current spring just to see. It’s what I would do in your position.
I have a question for you. Regarding your Gamo Urbans, do you experience any difficulty cycling the magazine? I have shot about 40 shots through my Urban and sometimes the bolt hangs a little when pushing the pellet into the chamber and I have to fiddle with a little to get the pellet to chamber. Wondering what your experience has been. And, maybe I am not doing something quite right as I cycle the bolt? Gotta say I’m loving those groups I’m getting. Thanks
I have 1 mag that came with the gun, and 2 mags that I bought from PA and I don’t recall any problems other than not being able to fit JSB Beasts into them. They cycle fine with all others.
I don’t think I’m doing anything fiddly when I shoot but I will pay attention the next time I have it out.
Pyramyd Air can repair it for you.
Ok, I just spent the morning on the Wildfire. For Halfstep I went methodically through the steps. I also put a 4 power Winchester scope on the gun based on Halfstep’s recommendation a while back. It is a very good scope for the price and has an adjustable objective. This is the scope”
Halfstep the pressure in the reservoir does not affect the wild scatter I have been getting with the gun.
First thing I did was check the cylinder indexing in the clip/magazine the one that came with the gun was off to one side. This looked like my problem. I replaced it with a new clip and cylinder. Still the same scatter in the group no better no worse.
Next I loaded some pellets into the barrel with tweezers and a flat head screw driver. That was very fiddly and tedious. Again no change.
Next I tried to polish the barrel crown in the gun. Again no change.
So now it was time to go back inside and get a little more aggressive.
First I took the barrel off the 1077 parts gun I have. I pushed a pellet through the barrel and it stopped at the crown. There was a ridge at the crown. I took a diamond cone Drimmel tool and put it in my hand drill and turned the barrel while I spun the bit in the drill to keep things symmetrical. Next time I will put the barrel in the drill press and just hold the diamond cone in the barrel. It took quite a few tries before I could not feel any resistance in the pellet as it passed the crown. Now I have a different barrel to try in the gun.
I took the Wildfire apart and checked the original barrel it was rough when seating a pellet and was also very hard to push the pellet past the crown.
I took the parts gun barrel that I polished the crown on and installed it in the wildfire. I shot 12 shots with open sights just to get the gun to settle in. The group was better but not good. I put the scope back on the gun and shot another 12 shot group. Now that is what I am talking about. It is not a tack driver but is as good as I expected from a Wildfire. Now I can try different pellets and fill pressures if I want to but the gun is supposed to be a good plinker and I really don’t need it to be any more accurate if the accuracy holds.
I also did not get any new leaks after putting it back together so a good success story so far.
Here is a picture of the last target. The 12 shot group is 0.47 inches and I did not give it any special concentration when shooting. This is what I was hoping for.
Darn anyway. I just posted this above without looking at the comments.
I’ll just post it here again for no paticular reason. But maybe it might also be a thought in the future if someone has guns with similar clips.
I was shooting my WildFire and remembered something. And I have brought this up in the past.
I more or less deep seat the pellets in the clip. I have tryed a Bic pen cap as well as just pushing with my finger.
The main thing is to make the skirt of the pellet (below) flush when you load it in the hole in the clip.
Maybe on this type of design and lower pressure to the barrel might not seal the skirt right. And I’m sure if the skirt was exsposed it would scrape the skirt as the clip indexed.
Sorry should of thought of that earlier. It just didn’t come to mind. Not that it’s the problem. But just so the thought is kept in mind.”
I just replied above also. From the results I got, I think I will be giving the crown on my 1077 a look. Although it is not shooting bad as is.
Both the barrels had a definite ridge at the crown that was hard to push the pellet past. Don’t know if this is the case with many of the 1077 and Wildfire barrels but sure made a difference on my Wildfire.
Sounds like the crown to me.
Question. Did the barrel have rifling. They say it does. But I have not had a barrel out on a 1077 or the WildFire I have.
And does it feel like the barrel is choked. I wonder if they would even do that on a cheaper gun like a WildFire or 1077. You may of said.
I don’t want to take my Wildfires apart if I can avoid it because of the leak issues I’ve had, but I may be able to use a cheap bore scope that I have to look at the crowns on my Wildfires and 1077s, since that front sight just slides out and leaves a bigger hole to work with. I’ll post what I find if I decide to do it if you think you would be interested.
Yes please do. And do the lead in on the breech end too if you can.
The barrels on the 1077 and Wildfire are rifled. I read somewhere that the barrels on the Wildfire were improved from the 1077. If that is the case I could not detect any difference between the two. If they are different it is in the manufacture not the overall barrel dimensions.
I did not feel any choke on either barrel.
When I push a pellet through the barrels they come out with eight grooves. The grooves are sharp. See picture below:
Engaging pretty good I think.
Probably the crown.
How about this. What about the lead of the barrel where th pellet loads.
Put a pellet inside the breech end of the barrel. Then push it back out the breech end and see what you get.
The breech on the original barrel was not good either. So at some point it will also need some smoothing up.
You keep saying other barrel or original barrel.
You charged barrels?
Yes I changed barrels. I polished the crown on one from my 1077 parts gun. The breech end of the 1077 gun was better than the original Wildfire barrel and I had already cleaned up the crown on the 1077 so I put it in.
Any chance you remember where you saw the info on the improved barrel?
I will try to remember but my memory is bad. Don’t count on it.
I think it was in a review or on a site selling the guns.
I hope a good memory never becomes a prerequisite for commenting on this blog!
I hope a good memory never becomes a prerequisite for commenting on this blog! 🙂
You and Gunfun may both be interested in something that I just saw on a channel that Siraniko linked to above. In the episode that I am watching they are discussing the Wildfire and it costs the equivalent of $414 in the UK! That’s not a fair price for this gun, IMO.
That looks like a good result to me and you arrived at it on your own, which makes it that much sweeter. That was a very meticulous approach you took. Hats off! I was actually tempted to suggest single loading the pellets with tweezers because it is what I would have done, were it me, but I was sure that you would think I was nuts for suggesting it and would never take anything I posted seriously in the future. Now I have the measure of you and will not be so timid in the future! 😉
Those pellets gave me nearly 1″ groups at 12 yards in my gun so you may have better groups to look forward to from other pellets. The Daisy hollow points were the best for me in the class of reasonably priced ammo. If you do more accuracy testing I would like to see the results. I would risk taking my gun apart again if I thought eliminating a crown issue would make it more accurate.
I’m glad you like the scope. The reticle will be a little thick at long distances but I think it is a great optic for the ranges that co2 rifles shoot and in most plinking applications. I may have to mount one to my RWS 52 sometime to test its mettle on a springer.
Thanks for taking the time to post your success.
I wanted to suggest an alternative to the oring that you used on your front sight, if you ever want to alter another of the guns of this design. It’s not my trick, I got it from the ether that makes us all look smarter, but it works and is simple. Take a few tufts of that polyester batting that is used to stuff pillows and pack it around the barrel with the front sight removed, then replace the sight. It will still leave the barrel with the ability to slide forward if you need to deal with a jam but will stabilize it much better than the front sight does.
I can link you to a site that will show you how to get a better shot count with an easy, cheap mod, if you are interested.
Knife sharpening related:
I have one of those cheap table top kitchen sharpeners (handle to the side, 1 carbide set of blades and 1 ceramic set). It works (very) well for a quick edge on my kitchen knives.
At any rate, the carbide side seemed like it did not want to cut. Looking at the sharpener, nothing seems to come apart. Off came the rubber pads on the bottom which exposed 3 screws. Once apart, I was able to flip the blade block around 180 degrees and all is good now. Just a quick tip for anyone that happens to use something similar.
I hold the handle with my left hand and pull the knife with my right. I could have just reversed my hand function,… but no.
The old B3 you showed with the rear sight to the rear looks welded on instead of clamped to 11mm groves. If so it is old. I found one like that at a pawn shop with no scope grooves and was surprised to find it had a metal spring guide. Looked original. It did though have a anti-bear trap safety like most newer ones that slides under the trigger. I’ve found some B1 and B2 without scopes grooves that looked old. I have one now that’s a .22 Pleasure brand model NP-1 (same as a B2). It’s a little better machined, for example the receiver rear end cap is metal instead of plastic and is threaded and screws on. But no 11mm scope grooves. Installed a new B2 leather piston seal and leather breach seal. Would not cock with the new spring so I put the old spring back in. Only shoots about 350fps with lead ammo. A little more chamber or will help. But it loves the RWS Hypermax alloy pointed 9.5grs. It was beat up bad. Sanded the stock, painted it metallic blue and the exterior of the barrel and receiver with black bed liner, chinese AK/SKS sling. Put a 3 rail 5 slot barrel accessory mount on the barrel just forward of the barrel block and mounted a 4×32 Aim scout scope on it w/ a see-thru mount so I can also use the iron sights. Good little shooter. Later Tim