by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- The Gauntlet
- Desirable PPP features
- Less desirable PPP features
- The list
- Growing!
- Discovery opened the market
- Marauder set the bar
- The airgun market explodes
- Tipping Point
- Room for improvement
- Summary
Sometimes I hit one out of the park and when I labeled the feature-laden precharged pneumatic rifles selling for under $300 as price point PCPs (PPP), I was right on the money. In fact they will do more to help our sport of airgunning than anything I can think of. Today’s report was requested by reader Vana2.
The Gauntlet
The first PPP I saw this year (actually, it was launched in 2017, but the launch had problems in the beginning) was the Gauntlet from Umarex. It was an air rifle many had dreamed about but never thought would happen.
Let’s now look at both the good and not-so-good features, because they pretty much sum up all that a PPP can offer.
Desirable PPP features
*Quiet operation
*Repeater (with single shot option most desirable)
*Available in both .177 and .22 caliber (with .25 caliber a desirable option)
*Accurate
Plenty of shots
Fill to no more than 3,000 psi (with 2,000 psi being most desirable)
Has a regulator
Great adjustable trigger
*Priced under $300
* Essential
Less desirable PPP features
Fill pressure above 3,000 psi (with over 4,000 psi being the kiss of death)
Weight above 7.5 bs.
The question becomes which PPP has all of the good features and none of the bad ones? The answer is — none have everything. There is always room for improvement. And there is something else to consider. Not every potential buyer focuses on the same things. One may hold out for a killer trigger while another wants only those guns that fill to 2,000 psi. So within the PPP category there is still a need for good marketing.
The list
Here are the airguns that are currently price point PCPs
Gauntlet
Benjamin Fortitude
Gamo Urban
Hatsan Flash
The Diana Stormrider, Gamo Coyote and BSA Buccaneer are close, but lack the quiet operation and so miss the boat.
Growing!
But the good news for airgun manufacturers is the PPP market is growing fast. New airgunners encounter PCPs that are very well developed these days and they jump right in. In the old days we had to nurse them through the springer stage before they were willing to make the transition to precharged airguns. That’s because a good springer was selling for $200 at the time (Diana 34), while an entry-level PCP started at almost $500. The spring gun was well-supported while the PCP (except for AirForce guns) was almost exclusionary — with poor documentation and very little published on how it worked.
Discovery opened the market
The Benjamin Discovery blasted through that stigma in 2007, when it dropped the price to less than $300 and provided the level of support a new customer expects to see. And the Disco was bundled with a good hand pump that worked well, due to the fill pressure of only 2,000 psi. Plus the rifle came with full documentation and a small tin of pellets in the box! You could shoot it the moment the box was opened. Why — it was almost as though someone had thought the whole thing through before launching the rifle!
Marauder set the bar
The following year Crosman brought out the Benjamin Marauder and established the bar for low-cost precharged airguns with nice features. While the most expensive PCP guns counted their sales in the hundreds worldwide, Crosman was selling rifles by the multiple thousands, along with AirForce, who offered shooters the next step up in power and advanced features like the ability to change calibers and barrel lengths. The PCP world had opened!
However, as open as it was, the introduction of the price point PCP was a major stroke of marketing genius. That was partly due to the features the new rifles offered and partially because of what had happened to the market, itself.
The airgun market explodes
When I started writing The Airgun Letter in 1994, I estimated there were 10,000 to 15,000 serious airgunners in this country. At that time we were outclassed by the United Kingdom, where there were over 50,000 serious airgunners. Their market was mature while ours was still in its infancy. Oh, there were huge airgun sales in the large discount store chains, but very few of those buyers were or ever became airgunners. While some manufactures believe the discount stores are the key to success, this market is maturing fast and cheap airguns that underperform are only a disappointing way to risk your company. Solid growth with quality products is now as certain as it ever can be.
Airguns did become more popular in this country between 2007 and 2015. However, things progressed at a slowly, so by 2015 there were still only perhaps 100,000 people I could call serious about airguns. While that is a 10 times bigger number, it’s still not enough to get excited about.
But the ammunition shortage of 2012 was about to change all that. A result of panic ammo and gun buying that began in 2008, the shortage became critical around 2012, and shooters who didn’t reload began looking around for what they could do. Several of them started to investigate the airgun market. This happened at a time when precharged airguns were mature enough to meet their needs and guns like the Marauder and all of the AirForce smallbores started selling in increased numbers.
The makers of the most expensive models didn’t adapt to this change, so the makers whose airguns were priced lower took increased market share. But the whole market was growing, so the top boys never noticed they were loosing share.
Tipping Point
At some point airgun sales reached a tipping point and went viral — at least from their perspective. No, they weren’t selling millions of products like the makers of smart phones, but today I estimate the US airgun market to be between 300,000 and half a million serious shooters. And the price point PCPs are one of the things that are expanding the market.
I remember a time when airgunners were the cheapest people on the planet. Some wanted to reuse their pellets and more of them wanted to shoot BBs more than once. Firearms shooters, in contrast, come into airguns with a history of paying a thousand dollars for an AR-15, and they may own five of them. So, a $300 PPP is chump change to them. They’ll buy it, like it and jump into airgunning with both feet. You guys know how easy that is. So, this is one large door the PPP has opened.
But it doesn’t end there. The PPP is also finally pushing those who’ve been on the fence for many years over into the “dark side.” For them the PCP world has loomed large, mysterious and expensive. They have heard how accurate a PCP is, and now they can try one for a lot less than just a few years ago. There were cheaper PCPs like the Disco, the Maximus and some from China that had been around for years before this time, but they all had some major shortcoming — the biggest being they were not repeaters. The PPP fixes that.
So airgunning in the US is growing because of firearms shooters crossing over and also because of existing airgunners who are jumping in even deeper. There are a minimum of 5 million active firearm shooters in the US, so the pool airguns are drawing from is very deep.
Room for improvement
And the dance isn’t over. The PPP is a new concept that hasn’t sorted itself out yet, leaving a lot of room to grow. I would say the greatest growth potential lies in providing a rifle with a world-class adjustable trigger. The Marauder trigger would do it, but you can’t spend nearly half your build budget on just the trigger, so that won’t work. Manufacturers, here is your best chance to gain some market share.
The second growth potential area is to build a valve that regulates itself well. At the price a PPP sells for there just isn’t enough room for a well-made regulator. A self-regulating valve could walk away with the market if it worked well. I have seen valves that gave the shooter 30 shots with about 10 f.p.s. variation. In fact, at the gross end of this is the USFT rifle made by Tim McMurray that gets 55 shots with H&N Baracudas at over 900 f.p.s. — all on a fill pressure of 1,650 psi. So, don’t tell me it can’t be done. It just can’t be done the way everybody is trying to do it today.
Third would be to design a repeating system that doesn’t rely on a rotary magazine. Rotary mags limit the length and therefore the weight of pellets they can accept, plus they usually stand up above the top of the receiver, limiting the types of scope rings they will work with.
Summary
In closing I have to say we are living in the golden age of airguns, and the price point PCP is one big reason why. In less than 12 months they have had a major impact on our world, and it’s one I see growing faster as time passes.
Any comments on the Seneca Aspen? That’s definitely price point, and unique. I’ve been watching it for over a year now.
Edw
Hard Air Magazine just mentioned the Seneca Aspen in an article and has links in it to their earlier review of it as well as power tuning it. It was named the American Tactical Nova Freedom back then and may still be sold as such but you would have to hunt for it on line. The stock is not made of high grade material but it works to keep it lighter and priced lower. I can easily live with it.
This new High or Low powered PPP is a winner in my book, well planned out. The pump handle is leveraged well for ease of operation and makes a nice locked in place carry handle however you will notice it takes a few more harder strokes for it to slowly move past 3,000psi … if you really want to go there.
Edw,
I will be testing one soon.
B.B.
8^)
That’s awesome!
B.B.,
As usual you have summed up the current airgun market and gun features very well and succinctly. What a great time to be into airguns especially pellet guns. And the big bores are stating to make headway. The quiet gun for the urban backyard is also a key to many more folks that can’t shoot powder burners at home. You already covered quiet but it is a big deal for many folks. The next year or two is going to make or break quite a few companies.
On the Benjamin 310 hollow bolt it is the same design on all the 310,317, and 312 guns. I think it is the same on the 347 and 342, maybe even the ealiest 397 and 392. I will go check on the 342. I had a 3100 with the top tube that held quite a few bbs. It had all the velocity but not much accuracy. I think it is the only gun I got rid of as a youngster.
The older 3xx Benjamin pumpers have a hollow bolt with the transfer port in the bolt. If the bolt cam is set too tight the bolt handle will not close against the tube and the transfer port will be restricted. That will cause the gun to retain more air after each shot. I am not sure if that is the case on your 310. All of my 312’s hold enough air to get a second shot, but your 310 is a true multishot. Who can complain about one pump per shot. I hope she can dance.
I also want to update my IZH 46M. When you finished your comparison of the 46 and the Gamo Compact I had just been given a Marksman 2004 an old highscool buddy that leaked. I just replaced the piston seal today and fixed the leak. When I saw the 46M at my friends shop I decided to buy it. I think it had less than 20 shots when I bought it. After about 50 shots it showed more wear than when I got it. I almost feel like I am cheating with the 46M. I been shootig these silouettes at 20 yards standing one hand wth a hit most of the time. With a rest they dont stand a chance.
/product/air-venturi-airgun-slynger-metal-silhouette-targets?a=5801
Thanks for introducing the IZH 46 what a fatastic pistol for the $300 I paid for it.
Going off grid again,
Don
We’ve seen non-revolver magazines used in some of the guns featured on this blog. The belts used in the Sig semi autos are the first one that come to mind. Maybe they would work well in conjunction with a pump action in order to move the bolt? They are similar in idea to the revolver-style magazines except for the use of a flexible belt, but that also means they can be mounted different.
I seem to recall some of the historical guns also featured tube magazines.
Note: When you say rotary magazines, my first thought are to ones like the Ruger 10/22, the Savage A22/B22, older Savage 99s, and those in Steyr-Mannlichers instead of the revolver-style ones often used for pellets.
BB
Remember the Daisy Powerline CO2 45 ‘ pellet ‘ pistol. It had a 13 round spring loaded stick mag, loaded pellet skirt first, that dropped into the top of the fixed in place slide. A small elevator would pop up and receive a pellet, and drop back down in line with the barrel.
It was trigger activated but I see no reason why a bit of bleed air couldn’t do the same job.
Now you had to use a specific size wadcutter pellet to fit the mag opening and prevent pellet interlocking so they could slide out of the stack but if the rifle and pellets were designed for it, no big deal. Just figure out a way to incorporate into the rifle in a practical manner.
Something like a side or bottom mounted stick mag with a bolt actuated see-saw lever (block) that picks up a spring loaded pellet and returns to barrel alignment…. Why do I always have to think this stuff up ! ? 🙂
Bob, I still have a Daisy 45 (Mine might be call 4500). They were made in Japan. I have 5 stick mags for mine. They have never jammed on me. It has been shot countless times with many boxes of C02 carts used up. But, like you said, with the design of the inline stick magazine, only wad cutter type (flat top) pellets can be used. I myself have no problem with that, but lots of people like domes or the new “tipped” pellets.
Doc
Doc
I still have mine as well, Almost NIB with 9 mags. I say almost because I sanded off the print and polished the slide sides smooth. Mine is called the model 45 and has ‘Special’ on the box. I think that’s because it has the silver receiver. Evidently I paid a little over $75. for it way back when. It claimed 400fps with its rifled barrel and trigger pull weight was not of any concern back then. Just tried mine again and I actually thought the safety was still on.
SOOO … How do we solve the problem of only being able to easily stack flat head wadcutters in a stick mag ?
Easy. make a two piece pellet with an insert that gets blown out the front and locks in place when fired. Any shape or material you want. Easy to stack and takes up less space in the mag. Or a thin layer up front that expands into a dome shape when fired.. A small round ball inside could help push it outward and keep it front heavy. I think there are endless possibilities with todays know how.
Bob,
My receiver is silver too! I don’t have the box anymore. Mine also claims 400 fps. It seems to shoot much harder than that. Maybe it was rated with lead pellets as I have some pistols that claim 430 fps and they don’t shoot (wack the target) as hard. Oh and mine is much more accurate than my other pistols on the same price level as this one. All is all it’s been a great pistol. Maybe I just got lucky.
Thanks,
Doc
B.B.,
Nice article. On drum mags.,…. make them a little longer. From what I have seen, longer means a heavier pellet and usually the heavier pellet is not the best given the power of the gun. But yes, there must enough room to carry the average range pellet. On drum height,.. sink it into the action and feed off the top. FX came out with a 20+ round mag. that looks totally ridiculous and forces the scope up, as opposed to the other one with less count and lower profile.
The belt feed could be turned on it’s side and spring loaded. Instead of a drum mag.,.. it would be more like a rectangle shaped mag. that would stick out a bit on each side. Maybe? At least you could get shot count and still maintain a lower profile.
Good Day to one and all,….. Chris
Hey Chris,
The HW100 magazine system is the best I have seen.
The pellets feed from the top so no scope mounting problems. Simple & robust metal design, no moving parts, “pocket proof” (no dust or lint worries) and they can be loaded one-handed.
I like that I can leave a cavity open, install the magazine and close the lever without cambering a pellet. Topping up a partially used magazine is quick and simple. You can’t accidentally double-feed a pellet with the HW100 either.
Vana2,
Now that’s what I call a magazine (er, clip)! No fiddly springs, cheap plastic, or other nonsense.
Michael
Hank,
The one issue here is the air rifle internals that make this so nice. Remember, this is for a PPP. Because of such there must be few parts, most especially moving ones and the tolerances must allow for it to work without precision fit.
RR,
Yes, agreed… They really need to watch where they are going to “spend” their PPP design budget.
Maybe it wouldn’t be too expensive to move the pellet advance mechanism out of the clip into the rifle… just dreaming in technicolor 🙂
Vana2, from a “neat design” perspective, that HW100 magazine is just plain cool. =>
But what am I missing here, guys?
When I shot Field Target back in the early 2000s, there were guys using custom PCPs that could shoot rings around my HW97; I could hit a shotgun hull at 50 yards, while they could hit a 1/4″ spinner…consistently. However, they were all single shots.
“Quiet operation,” I understand, as well as “Accurate” and “Plenty of shots.”
But “Repeater” I don’t get (note: I do not yet own a PCP).
CO2 pistols that are firearms simulators and trainers make sense to me.
Yet a rifle, a “PPP,” I would rather it be a single shot that is easy to load (and get lots of shots per fill); then apply the money you didn’t have to use to design a feed mechanism to design a better trigger.
Obviously, I am missing something here; so I’ll sit just back now and listen as all y’all apprise me as to what that might be; and thank you, in advance for your answers. =>
Hank,
The winners still shoot field target single shot. There are repeaters on the line, but nobody shoots one, expecting to place high.
B.B.
OK; that makes sense; thank you.
Dave
I don’t get the repeater part either.
You shoot your shot at the target and hit and you get up and move on to the next target.
Even if you miss and take your second shot how does a repeater help? I see no advantage.
Nice that I’m not alone in my thinking. =>
Dave,
I am thinking from the hunting perspective. On occasion it is nice to have a quick follow up shot. This is the thinking with the Gamo Swarm Maxxim and Magnum.
OK; I was thinking more like a Field Target guy; yes, hunting is a different perspective on things; thanks.
RR
Hunting yes.
Dave,
When I am shooting target, testing pellets or doing serious practicing I use a single shot tray or feed by hand. For hunting, pesting or plinking I will use a magazine/clip.
There is a concern that when a pellet is fed from a magazine/clip and pushed into the chamber – any roughness or misalignment might result in damage to the pellet and erratic flight.
It depends on the clip as well. The spring-loaded clips for my FX allow the pellets to rattle and pushes them around the inside of the clip as it rotates to position the next pellet to be shot. The HW100 clip holds the pellet (lightly) in place by pressure from the O-ring around the circumference. The whole clip rotates to align the next shot, the pellets don’t move until the probe pushes them into the chamber.
The benefit of hand feeding is that you can inspect each pellet as you load it and you can feel if the pellet didn’t seat normally/properly.
As B.B. said, winners still shoot FT single shot. Serious high-end target rifles are all single shot.
Personally, I would buy a repeating PPP over a single shot one and I think most people (hunters anyway) would prefer. Figure that I can always hand feed if I want to.
Hope this helps.
Hank
“The benefit of hand feeding is that you can inspect each pellet as you load it and you can feel if the pellet didn’t seat normally/properly.”
Hank, yes, that’s the way I was thinking; although I can see how hunters might wish a backup shot; thank you.
Dave and other interested in single shot vs repeaters,
What is the prey we are hunting that we need a repeater?
I hunt almost exclusively with DAQ rifles or pistols and they are all single shot bolt action. I do practice by taking my shot and load next round immediately and doubt I’m much slower than feeding with a typical BOLT and REVOLVER Action. If however, it was a semiautomatic I would be toast!
If I was hunting dangerous game I would have a backup loaded and ready to go in my Porter’s hands
shootski
Shootski,
Know what you mean. Was out with my single-shot 12 gauge. yesterday – prefer it to my pump and semi.
I have taken more small game with my single-shot Crosman 101, Cooey .22, Cooey 12 gauge in my early years of hunting than I have with all the “repeaters” I have owned. And yes, I was very fast at loading a second round. I’ve always said that learning to hunt with a single-shot teaches a person to make the first shot count.
Agree that the game in North America – with maybe Grizzlies and Polar bears excepted – doesn’t “need” a repeater but there are situations where having a quick second shot is of benefit 🙂
Hank
Hank,
It can be done. The Bulldog has a lever and a clip rotation assembly. We will see what the future holds.
RR,
I figure that a side-lever would take care of the hard-to-cock comments that I have seen in some of the reviews of PCPs. Guess side-levers are an example of the improvements that could be added in the future.
I know that my granddaughter had trouble cocking the Maximus until I extended and padded the bolt for her.
Hank,
Disassembly and polishing can improve the cocking also. There are gee gobs of other mods that can be done to the Disco/Maximus/Fortitude platform that have my knees turning to jelly. I can see one of these in my future.
RR,
I did the trigger mod on my Maximus and it is quite acceptable for a plinking rifle.
Agreed, the mods and swap-able parts for the Disco/Maximus/Fortitude platforms make them a tinker’s dream come true. Definitely see a Fortitude in my future.
Think that the Fortitude’s built in regulator is a huge improvement – makes it an easy fill and shoot rifle (and light weight to boot!). Have a couple of powder-burner friends who are seriously curious about PCPs but sticker-price and messing with fill pressures/power curves put them off. The PPP Fortitude addresses both those issues.
Now, if a “GEN II” Fortitude was 4500 psi capable the shot-count would be much better and the platform should be able to push a .25 pellet to a decent (750-850 fps) velocity to make it the ideal hunter. …never happy eh?? Always want/need to “fix” things 🙂
Hank
Hank,
Actually the reservoir is rated higher than 3000 PSI, but anything above that is a warranty and safety violation.
The power and the shot count is fine by me, most especially for a hunter/plinker. If I am hunting I will likely need less shots than it holds and if I am plinking my compressor/tank/hand pump will not be far away.
Speaking of compressors, have you added an output filter to yours yet? There are some decently priced ones on Amazon.
RR,
Yup, always a safety margin built in. Still, would be great if max-fill pressure was in align with what is readily available on the market.
Agreed, the shot count is OK when hunting – I don’t shoot much, when plinking the HPA source is near by so it is not an issue. When on a walk-about I can go through 50-60 shots pretty fast and would appreciate more. When visiting a friend I don’t always want to drag my tank along so shooting is limited to what pressure is in the reservoir.
My AR20 has a 4500 psi reservoir and it seemed to shoot forever on a fill. Guess that is why I hope that the PPPs would be 4500 capable.
Yes, I did add an “ALpha” (from AirTAnksForSale) output filter to my rig. Very happy with it.
Hank
Hank,
The Alpha is awesome. I saw those when I bought my HM1000X from Joe.
Like BB says, it my not be needed, but it gives you a warm fuzzy with it there.
RR,
The desiccant beads I added to the LP filter have yet to show change. About 1 cup worth. 45 min. of LP pumping thus far. I do not have a HP filter.
I am looking to make a HP filter for use with the beads that is cheap and basically just a tube and 2 Foster fittings. How hard is that? Viewing window would be ideal to check bead color, but not to sure how well a window of (any) sort would work with 4,500 PSI.
What is schedule 40 rated at? The one thing I do see is very fine threads on HP stuff. Std. pipe threads are quite coarse by comparison. From what I have seen of failures on HP stuff,… it is always at the threads and not the vessel itself.
“Warm and Fuzzy”,….. it does not get better than that!
Chris
Chris Re- What is schedule 40 rated at? Not good enough, the larger the pipe size the lower the rating too. 1/8″ is 810 psi
The problem with the clip being advanced by the rifle is that even on high-end rifles that system is prone to malfunction. It isn’t always flawless on something like the FX Wildcat, at least in earlier versions of it, the AA cycling lever is pretty fragile, and I have a Galatian that won’t cycle the clip and I don’t know how to fix it. If something goes wrong it’s easier to replace a $20 or even a $50 magazine than it is to have your rifle repaired.
I think the BSA/Gamo magazine is a good design. It slips in under the rail and doesn’t raise the profile at all, but its sharp edges are hard on the probe o rings. The other disadvantage is that it is ridiculously expensive to buy separately.
Rambler,
That is an issue that can arise as you said with the best of them. The parts for such can also increase the cost. I am certain I can fix issues like that, but as you pointed out, why bother.
As for the BSA/Gamo mag, the sharp edges can be dealt with. I could deal with the price of the mag if the air rifle was not as expensive. What many do not seem to grasp is, how many mags do I need? If I am hunting all I will likely need is one so as to have a quick follow up shot if needed. I can then reload. If I am leisurely shooting at a target, it is no great effort to reload. I can see having a spare mag should the other one break while in the field, but other than that…
Rambler,
Just a note that I have two HW100s (.177 and a .22) where the rifle advances the 14-shot clip and for 5,000 shots (each – at least) I have never had a failure, miss-feed or double feed.
My Dominator 1250 (also a rifle advanced clip) on the other hand is still a little fussy but improving with use. Mind you it has only been shot about 500 times.
The magazines on my FX have not given me any problems but then I baby them and keep them in a foam-lined pellet tin when not being used. Would never consider dropping an FX magazine into my pocket – figure any dust or lint would jamb it up pretty quick.
Hank
Vana2, These also remind me of a Crosman 1077 clip/magazine (much cheaper made probably though). Crosman has made several different circular mag/clips for the revolvers and semi auto looking pistols of theirs.
Doc
One off topic gripe,…. P.A. (mid week) sale? I like to ponder my selection a bit over a less busy weekend. I guess they are trying to boost (monthly) sales,.. before the month ends. Oh well.
Chris,
Many places do such to boost sales during the week. If you are employing people all week it is nice to give them something to do while they are getting paid.
With some places like PA you can compile a wish list which gives you ample time to contemplate your desires. Then when the sales happen, you buy.
Chris
And what I don’t like is the 500 people and the code changes.
Like how do we know when they decide that 500 callers purchased.
But what gets me is I go ahead and make a order with the 11% code after the 15% code expires and I’ll be darn they send a email with a new 15% off code.
But you know what. It just hurt them because I was making a big order with the 15% off code the first time around. But when it didn’t accept that code anymore I reduced my order.
So maybe their marketing department might take notes with the comments on the blog about their little sales promos.
In my opinion they probably lost sales playing their game. But what do I know.
Chris
Plus if they had it over the weekend people would probably be more likely to buy. Alot of people get paid on Thursdays or Fridays. So they would have paycheck money in the bank.
Chris USA,
Airgun Depot sent me an email about a Lightning Deal sale at the end of last week. I tried to buy the Legends C96 over the weekend, but was unable to because the website was posting the wrong price. I called them Monday and the sales guy put my order in at the correct price, gave me their buy 3 get 1 free pellet deal on some pellets that I needed and, because of the inconvenience of having to call, gave me a 10% discount on the whole order. That is my definition of customer service, for sure, and possibly an example of a potential sale that would have be lost to a glitch had the sale only been good on the weekend with no humans to help out.
This gun, along with other Legends guns, was in my wish list, just as RidgeRunner recommended to you, and all I had to do was what for the price.
Half
Definitely happy the ppp’s have come about.
Shootski,
Just thought of a possible 3-gun format for airguns. We don’t need to slavishly copy the rifle-pistol-shotgun format. How about rifle-BB Gun (ala Quik Skil)-pistol format? Airgun silhouette targets at appropriate ranges for targets. Rifles would be using a magazine fed PCP at targets 10 meters to 35 yards? BB Gun Daisy 25 or Red Ryders at targets ranging 7.5 – 10 meters. Pistols at targets ranging 5-7.5 meters. A popular spectator sport can also do wonders to promote our hobby.
Siraniko
Siraniko
I like what your talking about.
But remember. Firearm shooters relate to 3 gun competition.
If the competition resembles what they are use to. It might help them cross over to air guns.
I think that includes having the right targets. Find the right place in the line up of targets for a Texas star.
Gerald
Gerald
Agree with that.
Siraniko,
I have to agree with Gunfun1 and Participant that using the same format and targets is probably going to get more crossover from the powder side.
Your idea idea of an enjoyable spectator sport is interesting. I have found that FT matches run by clubs normally don’t take the time to educate the spectators (if there are any) and typically announcers are not to be found. I know folks don’t want someone on the PA System during shooting but Bluetooth and tablets and smartphones could keep everyone in the loop without disturbing the shooters and officials. Might help with scoring too!
shootski
Shootski
Now that’s a good idea. Tablets and smart phones.
B.B.
So how do all these airliners fill their tanks? Maybe we should all buy stock in the pump manufacturers?
With bicycle components there is a famous quote, ” Light, cheap, strong; pick two!”
-Y
Keith Bontrager. That was stamped into the headset of my privateer.
Truer words were never spoken.
-Y
Yogi,
What tanks?
shootski
BB,
It is indeed a great time to be an airgunner.
With the PPP it will be difficult to get away from the rotary magazine because of simplicity, reliability and cost. Perhaps fewer shots would help. This would reduce the size and likely cost. Do you really need 15 shots? You are not carrying this into a war zone. 5 shots would be more than enough, especially since it does not take long to change or load one. Longer magazines and clips would be very nice, allowing a larger selection of pellets. I have that issue with my HM1000X. If the additional cost is not over the top, an actuator in the rifle or pistol to index a stick or rotary clip would work well. This would reduce the cost of the clip/magazine considerably.
The idea of the belt feed for multi-shot I think will be explored much more in the near future, but such a mechanism will likely not show up in the PPP for quite some time due to the additional costs inherent in such. The present versions use the belt itself as the chamber. That is fine when you are using CO2, but when you start using HPA in the 3000 PSI range you are going to either greatly beef it up and provide sealing methods at both ends of the link or strip the pellet from the belt with a long bolt and seal it in the breach.
B.B.,
I feel that $300 will remain the floor for price-point PCPs. But instead of continued price drops, new PCPs, as you have pointed out, will continue to get better and better with more and more features. Sort of the opposite of a candy bar staying the same price but getting slightly smaller each year.
Michael
Michael,
I have already purchased two brand new Gamo Urbans for $220 and $219, so I think there will be price reductions in the future. And we are talking British made guns, with all the quality of workmanship and materials that the world expects. Surely, if these imports can be reduced, the domestic guns can, not to mention the cheaply made Chinese imports.
Half
Half,
Whoa! And those are BSA-Gamos. I’ve been looking at those for awhile now.
OK, I stand corrected, and very happily at that. :^)
Michael
Michael,
It just occured to me that about a week and a half ago I bought a Gauntlet from Pyramyd for $240. So I feel that they will come down in the near future.
Half
May want to have another look at the V2 Stormrider, they went with the “Chaser” moderator that has actual usefull insides. Still has the tempermental magazine set up, not sure there is any fixing that with the bolt probe oring layout.
Huklbery,
That Chaser silencer is what I call 007 quiet, for certain, with CO2 pressures, but do you have any idea if it is as quiet with PCP level pressures? I have a Gen 1 stormrider that has a fake silencer that everyone seemed to think was making the gun quiet, so maybe there isn’t much noise to start with and the new silencer will be effective.
Were you aware that the rifle silencer on the Chaser (chaser) will also fit the pistol barrel?
Half
The Barrels are interchanglble on the SPA (Diana’s budget line) series. The Diana’s do however secure the moderator to the barrel while the generic imported ones have not been. That said, I have used them to mix and match to great effect. The Chaser style moderator with its stacked internals works quite well though not MRod shrouded barrel low. I have run it with the bottle gun under 1100 psi air and its very effective. This pic shows a Stormrider V1 (style) barrel & suppresor on a Chaser style assembly.
It’s a very flexable platform
Huklbery,
My point was that the DIANA silencer on the DIANA CHASER COMBO will screw off ( regular right hand thread with cheap chinese loktite) and will fit the DIANA CHASER PISTOL, making it an even more flexable platform.
Half
Yep, the Chaser’s threaded end is what they appear to be using on my “Bandit” as well. The V1 Stormrider is using a straight shoulder with a setscrew as they mounted a front sight for orientation. Here is the Bandit with a P1 rocking the Chaser barrel-moderator
Yeah,
I have a Gen 1 stormrider and the moderator is just a bar of aluminum with a hole in it. Many reviewers thought that it was making the gun quiet, so I guess if you can convince an experienced end user that it is quiet, that’s all the silencing it needs.
So have you tried your Bandit silencer on a chaser pistol? It is very quiet.
Half
Yes the no name brand “Chaser” comes as the same kit but does not loctite the screw on silencer. The CP1 wood stock CO2 target pistol is interchangeble and I used the “spare” barrel from the CP2 (Chaser) with the moderator. I’m not much with a pistol but can say after trigger work they have been very easy to shoot accurately for me. As a pistol only my Crosman silhouette I find to be easier for me to group at 10m.
Huklbery,
I have been doing loads of experimenting with my chaser combo and plan on sharing the results here eventually, but what has been your experience as far as accuracy in your pistols with and without the silencer?
Half
B.B.
I was looking at the fill pressure in your “desirable features” list.
If a rifle has a regulator the maximum tank pressure does not really matter so having a reservoir that is 4500 psi capable would cover all the typical HPA sources. In this case, “more” is better because it will increase shot count.
My Walther PCPs are rated to 4500 psi and when I fill them directly from the compressor to maximum pressure I am good for over 100 shots on a fill. If I fill from my scuba tank (about 3300 psi when full) I get around 60 shots. When away from home I use my Hill pump to bring the pressure up to around 2000 psi and shoot with that, topping up whenever I need to.
My thought is that if the PPP system is 4500 psi capable it will accommodate all (typical) filling methods and the regulator will take care of the rest. The only requirement is that the fill pressure is “in the green” part of the gauge (above the minimum regulator set pressure) and you would be good to go.
Just my 2 cents.
Hank
Hank,
That fine, if you have a compressor. But the PPP are meant for new shooters, many of whom won’t have a compressor, so the guns that fill to high pressure are more of a liability than a help.
B.B.
B.B.
Don’t know if I agree B.B.
I have a several PCPs and they are all quite hefty – I am definitely in the market for a reasonably priced light weight PPP as a walk-about rifle for plinking. Looking to get a Fortitude (pending your reports) for that purpose.
I don’t think that high pressure capability is a liability – if the rifles were rated to, say, 10,000 psi people would not have the ability to over fill them 🙂 A rifle rated to a maximum of 2000 psi could easily be over filled if attached to a scuba tank or a HPA compressor.
4500 psi capability would add little in the way of weight or cost to a regulated rifle (and be safer IMHO) as the valve system (etc) only sees the lower regulated pressure. I would hazard a guess that the reservoirs on many PCPs could could handle high pressure but being unregulated the valve would be the weak part – it would just lock-up.
…Just saying
Hank
Hank,
You just confirmed what I said when you said you owned several PCPs. The target PPP buyer doesn’t have one — yet. You are not the target consumer for these rifles, though I’m sure the makers are glad to have your business.
The PPP is targeted to bring new shooters into the airgun sport in an affordable way. If they like it they will no doubt buy carbon fiber tanks and eventually compressors, but that is all in their future.
B.B.
B.B.,
I agree with you. Get “them” in the door first. (IF) they shoot awhile and (do their homework)… the rest will follow. And,…. they (will) be wanting more than a PPP.
I am all for PPP’s,…. but there has to be a limit,…. of which you can, rest assured, “they” will push to the limit,… at which point you will have failures, inconsistencies and pretty much crap. If not mistaken,… that is/was/is? the marketing philosophy of China, and once Japan.
Be careful what you ask for,.. may be in order?
Chris
B.B.
I’m with you on this one. I am the target PPP buyer. I have yet to dive into the dark side, but am watching all this get PPP unfold. I for one am turned off when I see over 3000 psi. I would be hand pumping (can’t wait to see you review the Nova Freedom). In fact I love the idea of 2000 psi or a 3000 psi that can shoot well with just 2000 psi in it.
Doc
Hank,
I’m with you on this one.
Just because a gun has a 4500 psi capability doesn’t mean that it needs to be utilized right away. You could do a poor job of marketing and scare away newbies by making them think that they need a $1300 compressor to fill it or you could do the smart thing and make sure they know that the gun will work great with handpumping and will become even more useful should they decide to upgrade from a hand pump, in the future, or if they are just feeling particularly strong on any given day with a hand pump.
Half
Halfstep
That’s the beauty of a regulator.
You can fill to what ever you want to as long as you don’t exceed the resivoirs full fill rating.
Heck you can fill that 4500 psi gun to 1400psi and get numerous consistent shots as long as your air volume is above the regulated pressure.
So basically that gun would be a gun that a shooter could grow with as he advances to buddy bottles and compressors.
But the next step is to offer that 4500 psi regulated gun at a price point pcp cost. Now that would be a winner.
GF1,
Only the regulator and the reservoir (and its foster fitting and gauge) need to be 4500 psi rated. South of the regulator, pressures are usually under 1500 psi.
So, maybe the reservoir wall thickness needs to be increased a bit and a suitable manometer fitted.
Hank
Right.
Gunfun 1,
So you are on record that the ABILITY, not the REQUIREMENT, to fill to 4500psi is NOT a detriment to the PPP concept as BB contends? That is what is at issue.
Half
Halfstep
Yes.
The last piece to the puzzle is a cheap but reliable compressor that will last several years without having to be rebuilt. The Shoebox was a step in the right direction but it requires too much maintenance. I don’t know if the new Benjamin pump will fill the bill or not. I was looking forward to the new Sun Optics/Airforce pump but I think it was pulled due to costing too much.
I am leaning towards buying a $3000 compressor and being done for good but that is a hard pill for anyone, even hard core airgunners to swallow.
David Enoch
David,
The Pyramyd AIR compressor is reliable. I’m still using mine regularly.
B.B.
BB,
The Gamo Coyote probably doesn’t fit the PPP criteria because of its price, but it does have a silencer as well as the adjustable hammer spring of the Urban.
Have you installed the add on moisture trap that Pyramyd markets for that compressor? When we bought ours it was touted as providing clean dry air, as long as it was used per directions. Now they imply that we may be damaging our guns if we don’t utilize this $100 contraption that they are now selling. What’s the real deal?
Half
Half,
I have the moisture trap but I haven’t installed it yet. I live in a state where the humidity doesn’t get up to 50 percent most of the time. But I do plan on installing it. Just lazy so far I guess.
B.B.
BB
The moisture is generated from the heat of the compressor pumping. Here check this out.
https://www.atlascopco.com/en-au/compressors/wiki/compressed-air-articles/what-is-condensate-in-air
Gunfun1
The compression process extracts the water moisture from the incoming air and returns it to liquid again. It does not generate it. Moisture in the air is forced out when air is compressed.
Air can only hold so much moisture before it turns to liquid as rain. When the air is compressed there is a whole lot less air space for the existing water vapor to exist in it so similar to the way rain forms it returns to a liquid form again. Remember water cannot be compressed along with the air.
The less water moisture, humidity, in the air going into a compressor the smaller amount of water vapor will be turned into a liquid again. In a zero humidity condition you would not extract any water from compressing air.
It says it all in the first paragraph of the link you provided however it gets confusing by describing the process in-depth as to how it takes place….. Kinda like I just did ! 🙂
Actually I guess you could say liquid water is generated by the compression process, not moisture.. It’s in the wording where it gets confusing.
You can’t get any water from the air if there is none in it in the first place and very dry climates don’t usually have much moisture in the air to worry about it damaging metal, too much anyway.
Bob
Yes whatever you want to call it. Moisture/water it happens.
At work we have dryers and coolers on our air compressors.
If they are not working we get all kinds of moisture/water in the system.
So how ever it happens it can be reduced with the components I just mentioned.
BB,
Maybe you should do a blog on your compressor to see how much moisture is in the trap before and after you install the desiccant filter. Also, you should pick up an inline HPA filter and see how much moisture it catches after the trap/filter of the compressor.
RR,
I did one years ago. It’s more intentional that what you suggest.
/blog/2017/03/do-pressure-vessels-become-unsafe-over-time/
B.B.
BB,
I remember that report. Some like Halfstep are bent because now he is told he must add additional filtration to his compressor to be safe. I have done such from the beginning because it is pretty humid around here and I did not feel like dealing with it in my tank or rifles at all. I do know that when I filled my tank for the first time I had a bunch of water in the compressor trap.
I myself would be curious at how effective that desiccant filter really is.
Half,
The desiccant input filter will help some, but for these to work properly the air must remain in contact with the desiccant for a period of time and the desiccant must be dry. It is a larger version of what is on my Hill pump. Moisture still collects in the trap on my Hill pump.
When I bought my compressor, I bought a Diablo in line filter for the output of the compressor. Any moisture that gets past the filter/trap on the compressor must go through this filter/trap before entering my PCPs or tank. These HPA filter/traps are not cheap, but I do not have to worry about moisture.
RidgeRunner,
I guess the point I was trying to make is that Pyramyd sold me the compressor as a safe convenient source of clean dry high pressure air, then, less than a year later, they are trying to frighten me into ” preventing serious damage” to my valuable PCP investment, or some other load of crap along those lines. If they touted the thing as safe for my PCPs and later found out that it should of had more filtration/drying then they should give it to me before it wrecks my guns, not try to frighten me into buying the fix for an additional $130. What’s next. in Six months they release the info that the air doesn’t really stay in contact with the desiccant long enough on the intake side, so they are now offering for sale a bigger better filter/dryer for the discharge side of the compressor. For $1300 I should have gotten a compressor that I didn’t have to worry about damaging my guns, which is what I thought I was getting until Pyramyd came out with this gadget for $130.
Rant over.
Half
Half,
Oh, I understand. The filter/trap on the compressor really does a great job. As for this incoming filter I myself would not bother with it because as you said it only helps a little bit. My additional filter may be overdoing it a bit, but I know I do not have to sweat the moisture issue with it. Where I live is pretty humid and I like having the insurance.
I would strongly recommend you look around on Amazon. There are some HPA line filters similar to mine at pretty decent prices, actually lower than that intake filter from Hill/AV. Some do not have a moisture trap/cotton/charcoal filtration like mine, but every little bit helps.
BB,
I just looked and the only compressor available is the AV for $1300. on the Pyramid site.
Hi David,
I got an Air Venturi compressor ($1300) when I retired because I was no longer conveniently close to a dive shop to fill my scuba tank.
It was easy to convince myself that considering time and gas (for the 3 hour round trip) plus the filling charge that having a compressor on-site was a practical solution.
What I didn’t realize was how nice it was not to have to worry about an HPA supply – if my tank is down a bit it only takes a couple of minutes to bring it up to working pressures again. Find that I am shooting a lot more than I used to.
Cheers,
Hank
Hank,
Have you noticed that your compressor’s ease of use has lead you to increasing lapses of will that leave you with more PCP guns than you probably need. ( Man, it hurt to use that word. My wife uses that word)
I know that it has for me and PPP PCPs don’t help matters any! 🙂
Half
Half,
I tend to buy stuff to fill a particular need/niche and I pretty well have all the bases I am interested in covered. Though I do admit that I have been known to define a new category that would suit a particular rifle 🙂
I never thought it would happen that a rifle could challenge my FWB 124 for the walk-about crown because it is so good for plinking targets of opportunity when on a stroll through the bush. A .22 caliber Fortitude PPP could be very suitable for talking for a walk. … hmmmm… See; I now have a Springer Walk-About AND a PPP Walk-About category – no problem eh! 😉
My wife is very good about supporting my airgun hobby (addiction???). Some times she presents me with a can of pellets and suggests that I go get rid of the dandelions – keeps me busy for hours!
Yeah, the convenience of a compressor does encourage more interest in PCPs and PPPs – they are so nice to shoot. If my wife comments that I have more rifles than I “need” I (carefully) ask if she could manage cooking with just one big pot 🙂
Cheers,
Hank
Hank,
I like the way you think. 🙂 Now,.. being somewhat of an a “highly accomplished”, off the cuff,.. chef myself,… I can see the wife’s point. Within the culinary world, there also lies the Red Ryder’s, as well as the Daystates. And, like pellets, and scopes, and ?,…. culinary “tool” choices are near endless. Both can be a bottomless pit and one should proceed with much caution and information.
Luckily for me, I have only myself to negotiate with. 🙂 And, as good as that may sound to some,… I can be my own worst opposition.
Good to see you are posting more,…… beings how that you are retired now,….. and all that good stuff! 😉 Always enjoy your post’s.
Chris
Chris,
I find that I am more busy now than when I was working – the difference is that I am doing stuff around the house, on the property and in the workshop.
I am working on a DIY blog on gun stocks and that takes up a lot of time. Writing a blog sure makes me appreciate the amount of work B.B. puts into it.
Take care!
Hank
Hank,
Careful there, Buddy. Those kind of comments could make a cook out of you one day!!
Half
LOL!!
Ain’t that the truth!!!
When I say that I am counting (HEAVILY!!) on the fact that I am not allowed into the kitchen to cook – evidently, I make too big a mess and consume things that were meant for supper (not lunches 🙂 )
…After 45 years of marriage we still get along pretty well. 🙂
Hank
Or…could she get along with just one pair of shoes, or two, or three. 🙂
David,
These are nice.
/product/air-venturi-air-compressor-electric-4500-psi-310-bar-110v?a=7458
PPP PCP rifles get allot of attention these days. However, I would give a shout out to the Diana Bandit pistol as a model that fills that niche too. You will need a rotary tool to get the stock to fit your shooting paw. Is it a 1720 killer?
At half the price or thereabouts, maybe! All metal construction,nice tig welds, but the trigger screws need locktightening. The UTG micro holo sight BB mentioned yesterday was just the sort of thing that might work on this nice, relatively light pistol, or at least a little nicer rear sight. I guess this model is being marketed as an enthusiests
choice, I think the grip might be a bit much for some folks, it does take some effort to get the ergos right. Have a nice day y’all, Rob
Mr. Gaylord:
If this is the golden age of air rifles, when can we expect a 3P rules compliant rules certified rifle at or below $300. It seems to me that the $525 price point set by the rules has become the floor price without optics. When can junior competition shooters expect to see some trickle down of all the PPP rifles.
It seems to me that lost in the shuffle are the shooters who aren’t necessarily interested in the advertising hype of ever increasing shot count, higher velocities and higher power.
While it’s important to have rifle developments, it’s equally important to have new junior shooters developed in 3P and 4P youth programs. Junior shooters are the new rifle purchasers of tomorrow. Rifle makers should, in my opinion, spend a few dollars to grow that youth of today, buyer of tomorrow market. How expensive would it really be to tune down a PPP rifle and then submit that rifle to the rules committee for certification?
Thanks, as always, for listening to my “coaches complaint”
I’ll get off my soap box now.
Respectfully submitted
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Venture Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William,
You know, that is a good question. The technology now should support such a rifle.
I will ask around.
B.B.
You would think the Maximus would be a good option. Just put the Challenger valve in, a rail on the bottom and come up with a reliable trigger fix. Mine was very close to shooting a one hole group rested at 7 to 8 yards with Stoeger X power 10.1 9 grain copper pellets last night, which was a surprise since none of my other guns will shoot the Stoegers worth a hoot
Mr. Schooley,
Hopefully a company like SIG AIR division is reading your post carefully!
shootski
Wm.Schooley,
A gun of that variety would probably find buyers outside the Junior Shooter realm, as well. I know that I, along with many other full grown and able-bodied shooters, really enjoy shooting my CMP surplussed Daisy 853. It is not all about power within the adult shooter community and I think a company that produced such a gun could count on significant sales from that quarter along with the youth sales.
Keep talking it up. I want one, too!
Half
BB
Not trying to stir bad vibes on the Gauntlet.
But what start up problems did it have? I don’t recall right now. Refresh my memory.
BB,
This is a very good article. I fully agree that the PPP is going to change the airgun market. I am the owner of the Gauntlet because I could see it as a good value. With over 500 pellets through it, I still don’t know how many regulated shots there is to a fill because I hand pump. I’ll do 50 or 60 shots then pump some air in it. I like that it is not pressure fussy as long as it is above regulator pressure. At this time, I would have to see some pretty remarkable improvements for me to spend the money for one of the high end PCP’s.
Gerald
For a lot of people that will be the experience. I know a lot of people who own one firearm, a hunting rifle or bird gun.
I understand building to a price point in order to sell airguns. However, the trigger Crosman continues to use is the same as the Discovery, Maximum and Fortitude. Umarex out did Crosman in respect to the trigger by using a trigger that is almost a direct copy of Crosman’s trigger on the their old 160. That trigger could at least be tuned pretty decently and probably could have been installed on the above three guns for the same cost as the trigger they used from the Discovery. Umarex did it with the Gauntlet, why can’t Crosman? Just my two cents.
I know it’s off topic but I just acquired a diana model 24 that shoots way low and I was wondering if anyone here could suggest a fix … this seems to be a newer model 24 with plastic trigger and front sight and has the t05 trigger. With the factory rear sight adjusted to max elevation it shoots about 4 in low at 5 yards. Should I try to bend the barrel up a bit? I picked this rifle up as part of a trade and was told it had only been fired a handful of times and it looks unused I would really like to shoot it but given how far low it shoots that is proving difficult. All help much appreciated.
Red Beard,
Off topic,.. no problem. I will let the experts speak to the “way low” issue. Trust me,… you have landed on the right site,….. 😉
Chris
Red Beard
I don’t have one and am not an expert here, but from what I have learned here. Check the barrel with a straight edge for any bending. Inspect the front sight and breach area for damage or irregularities. Check that the breach seal is not protruding too much pushing the barrel down. Lastly try to see if you have an off center barrel bore. A shorter (correct?) front sight may help. Bending the barrel up may help but be careful how you do it. Not too much stress in one concentrated area.
If all else fails get a scope and adjustable one piece mount or some optics that will compensate for the droop.
Good luck.
Least I forget … check all the stock screws holding the action for tightness.
And how can I forget? Type barrel droop in the search box for more info
Thanks Bob, the barrel seems to be dropping a bit but not as severely as I thought … I stripped the gun down to see if there was another problem internally ( piston seal etc) but everything looked ok except that it was bone dry inside so I wiped the sides of the piston with balistol and reassembled the gun. After that it was shooting about the same amount low but with the rear sight cranked down all the way and when adjusted up I was able to get nearly on target at 7 yards.(10m pistol target with a 6 o-clock hold on the black bull) Does it make any sense that a few drops of lube would make that much of a difference? I did not lube the compression chamber just the sides of the piston. To the best of my knowledge the diana 24 is a pretty low power air rifle but I was not able to find a factory spec for velocity. But I suspect this one is around 500 fps
Red Beard
Not having Crony results for the pellet speed before and after you can never tell how much of a change occurred.
BB has mentioned that adding lube has, on various occasions, increased fps especially when it involves piston seals that actually begin to seal again and increase fps that results in less pellet drop over distance. I would say the lube definitely affected it. Aiming for the center of the bull will probably help too.
I did not suggest a total breakdown, glad you did it. I would have if there was a noticeable drop in performance, but the point was not mentioned. Assumed it was fully functional other than shooting low.
Hope it all comes together for you. Feels good to solve a problem on your own.
A chrony would make my life easier in a lot of ways … up to now I haven’t been able to justify buying one as air guns are a sideline to my main passion which are powder burners. Part of what prompted me to tear the gun down is that it was not punching neat holes in the target with the wadcutter pellets u was using while my daisy 747 pistol would with the same pellet and range. The daisy is probably somewhere in the mid 300 fps range so if the rifle was slower than that something is terribly wrong … I’m still not to the bottom of it but I’ll keep tinkering. This gun came to me in a trade sky I have no baseline for its performance. I suspect this model was detuned for the canadian market but I’m not sure. I have not been able to fund any specs for model 24 velocity I measured the spring at 28 coils of .102″ wire but I forgot to measure piston length before I put it back together
Red Beard,
Glad to hear you “tinker”. That makes a world of difference, done correctly. I love to get “inside”. 😉 Chrony’s are nice. They are pretty darn cheap too. I have the Shooting Chrony with the remote read. It is nice to get a pre-tune read and a post tune read on air guns. In your case of powder burners, it might be nice to gauge different ammo. brands or hand loads, if you are into that.
Chris
Red Beard
Yes a tumbling pellet that drops off to the ground in short distance certainly sounds like a power problem. Is it punching clear holes now? Was the piston seal snug up against the tube when you installed it. Might be worn out. Spring should have required compression to install it. It’s not just a drop in item.
My first break barrel pellet rifle was something I picked up new at a gun show on a whim as I left. A China made QB25.
It looked very substantial and powerful but I could never hit anything with much accuracy so it sat for many years. About 10 years ago I decided to rebuild my first airgun from the 60’s. An 1894 lever action replica. Found Pyramyd AIR looking for parts.
Eventually learned I should tighten up the lose stock screws on that QB25, use the artillery hold when shooting springers and actually clean the barrel. It shoots just fine now.
Now, I don’t really know how many airguns I own and for the most part my powder burners are resting quietly in the safe. Very addictive hobby. Especially when your retired to the country and money is not a problem.
Keep questioning and reading the blog for back info, sometimes it’s timing. Stay on the latest blog page for new questions. You usually get more replies than this but then again your problem was just considered barrel droop, a common problem with break barrel springers.
The seal looked fine to me (I’m no expert but it seemed intact and was a snug fit going in) the spring had about 2 inches of preload and I was able to compress it by hand with only minor difficulty. It is still tearing paper and accuracy is hit and miss sometimes it is very consistent and then the next few shots fly way wide (could be me but it’s close range and I’m a decent shot with other guns) I did add a few drops of balistol through the transfer port and have only fired about 30 shots since then so it may be due to the oil. I figured the balistol would be ok on a low powered gun like this but I’ve been wrong before.
Red Beard
Go to the top of the blog page and click on ‘Video Blog’. Episode 39 and 35 may help … not to mention the rest ! The Artillery Hold is necessary when shooting almost every springer.
Red Beard Forge,
Since you suspect that the rifle may be under performing your 747 you can test it by simply firing both into a medium such as wet magazines or modeling clay to see which goes deepest. If the rifle is shooting slower, then that IS a problem since it should probably be at least twice the velocity of the 747. They are very low power guns. I have a 717 and a 777( same power plants) and I think they are under 300 fps with many pellets.
If you suspect an air leak, one method of detecting a leak at the breech seal is to load the gun with a heavy pellet and drape a single ply of toilet paper over the barrel/ tube junction, then fire. The tissue will blow off if air is rushing out. Make sure that you separate the tissue into a single layer and use a piece that is just big enough to cover the joint.
What pellet are you using when you get the low impact?
Half
Red Beard Forge,
This is the link to the owner’s manual. It looks like a .177 should be 574fps and a .22 would be 394 fps. And you were right about the 747’s velocity. The manual claims 360fps max. I thought mine was much lower than that, but the old noggin failed me again.
Half
I was using finale match pistol wadcutters as it’s what I had on hand I also tried some crosman hollow points but the fit in the breech ranged from falls in to can barely be seated fully so I stopped that test early. I have lubed the piston body and seal with balistol and found the point of impact came a lot closer to the point of aim afterwards. I will be checking the relative penetration against a couple pneumatic pistols I have but I suspect the power level is now somewhat near where it should be. The link you mentioned to the owners manual did not come through if you can resend it that would be great.
Red Beard Forge,
The manual didn’t come through because I forgot to attach it! The noggin, again!
Since the gun is low power and not detonating from the Ballistol, maybe some ATF conditioner in the compression chamber will restore the seal’s suppleness.
Here’s that link, before I forget to attach again. Pyramyd calls it the owner’s manual but I don’t think it is. It does, however, give the velocity info that you were looking for, albeit in metric units.
Looks like a little bit of oil was all it needed I just shot my daisy 747 and beeman p17 into duct seal alongside the Diana for comparison …both pistols shot a finale match pistol pellet into the putty about a 1/16in past the waist of the pellet and slightly deformed the pellet while the diana penetrated 1/8in past the skirt into the putty and crumpled the pellet. The test is far from scientific but I’m happy with it for plinking and targets. Now I’ll have to try a scope on it. Unfortunately the only airgun scope I have right now is an old center point 3×9 that isn’t very clear especially at close range
Red Beard Forge,
Two thing that I would like to mention.
Your iron sights should work for you now, unless the barrel is damaged. The drooping isn’t supposed to be present when using the barrel mounted factory sights.
And secondly, if you still want to scope the gun, without too much cost, I can recommend the Winchester 4X32 AO at around $33 or the Winchester 3-7X32 at about $42. They should work well on such a low power springer. They come with rings, but they are the variety that uses a single nut fitted for a flat screwdriver and may be hard to get tight enough. But the scope is great and cheap enough to try as is before springing( no pun intended) for 2 screw rings.
Half
Red Beard,
Diana’s are notorious for having barrel droop. Bob had some good ideas. The best thing is to scope it and use a droop compensating scope mount. As for bending, I did not think that was done unless the barrel had been bent prior,.. or,… the droop was very severe.
Chris
Chris USA,
I think the barrel droop is more of a function of the fit up between barrel and compression tube and comes into play mostly when the sighting system is not mounted to the barrel. I believe BB has written that the Germans use their open sights more and for that reason don’t experience barrel droop and therefore don’t see a problem that needs addressing. I don’t really know the model 24 but I’m assuming( with all the risks of what that can make of U and ME) the the iron sights are fitted to the barrel block.
Half
Half,
I can not disagree with of any of that. I usually steer clear of open sight discussions, since I do not use them and do prefer scopes. Peeps on a rifle would be the exception. I am not a fan of anything that has droop, especially if it can be scoped. But hey, who am I to take exception to decades of tradition?
Chris
Watching PBS,…. Owls. Their eyes take up 70% of their skulls. We, on the other hand,.. our eyes take up 5%. Night vision?,…. Scope correlations,.. anyone? 🙂 Cool stuff.
Chris USA,
Owls are cool!
And all without battery powered night vision electronics!
Proper Night Vision preservation protocol makes human eyes surprisingly good even with our eyeball size disadvantage. Add a half hour on 100% Oxygen and human vision is almost spectacular. Our heads are 70% brain! I think I’ll keep that advantage.
Interesting read: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/9/24/don-t-be-that-guy-president-s-hundred-edition/
Six inches low…six inches high…finally on target!
I think it has a few semi-hidden points beyond the obvious one.
shootski
Everybody,
You CAN NOT simply put in more air pressure because you have a regulator. That isn’t the way it works. Regulators work within parameters of pressure which the manufacturer states up front. If you go higher you run the risk of damaging the regulator.
B.B.
B.B.:
Thank you for the interesting article. I peruse the air gun world, patiently waiting for what I want: a documented 80db (or better) air gun. I watch videos and read a lot of comments in various articles and blogs with people saying “it’s movie-quiet,” but it always turns out to be not the case. I want to be able to practice in the yard without worrying if the neighbors or some jogger/walker will call the cops. The so-called “quiet”‘ guns out there aren’t quiet enough for that. I have a pistol and my buddy has two rifles that fall under that category, and no, they are anything but quiet. I understand about avoiding the sonic crack, but the compressed air leaving the muzzle makes quite a bit of noise.
When the industry produces a documented sub-80db air gun in your $300 price range, I’ll be all over it!
Ten-X,
Welcome to the blog.
For 80 db I think you have to add a zero to your number. Most quiet airguns I have heard run 84-86 db. They do exist, but are costly.
B.B.
You should have a friend stand near your property line while you shoot your airgun. They sound a lot louder when you are the one shooting. Most moderated airguns are no louder than a nail gun. I doubt very much if a neighbor would ever hear you shoot in your back yard with a moderated airgun…even at 90 db. I shoot my moderated Urban in my basement and the wife says she doesn’t hear much noise from it. If I shoot my Diana 34 in the basement she says it is quite noisy. And a basement does not absorb much noise.