by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Beeman P3 air pistol.
Beeman P17 Part 1
Beeman P17 Part 2
Beeman P17 Part 3
Beeman P17 Part 4
Beeman P17 Part 5
This report covers:
- Comparison
- Why are they both Beemans?
- The P3
- My P3
- Build quality
- Pumping
- Rear sights
- Front sights
- Trigger
- Summary
This is Part 1 of my report on the Beeman P3 air pistol, but you will recall that I have already written 5 reports on the very similar looking Chinese-made Beeman P17 pistol Parts 1 and 2 of that report were a guest blog written by reader 45Bravo about fixing and resealing the P17. In these reports we learned the two most common problems of the P17 and how to fix them. So this has already been a valuable series — at least for me!
Comparison
I normally don’t compare one airgun to another, but I’m making an exception for the Beeman P17 and Beeman P3. I’m doing so because the Chinese copied the Beeman pistol without regard to propriety or the manufacturer’s rights. And everyone, including me, wants to know how good a job they did. Is the $30 P17 a perfect knockoff of the $230 P3, or have corners been cut?
Why are they both Beemans?
There is a more fundamental question to be asked first. What gives the Chinese the right to not only call their air pistol a Beeman P17, but to put that name on its molded top half? The answer is simple — they bought the company! The Beeman company is owned by Chinese proprietors — Industry Brand of Shanghai. Read about it in Part 2 of “A brief history of Beeman and Air Rifle Headquarters”.
So why does Beeman continue to offer both the inexpensive P17 and the far more expensive P3 that competes with it? Well, the P3 isn’t produced by Beeman. It never was. Beeman never produced any of the guns that bear their name when they were American owned. The P3 is made by the Weihrauch company of Germany, and they sell it worldwide as their HW40. The P3 could go away and the HW 40 remain and it would still be possible to get the airgun. But at the time of this publication, both the Beeman P17 and P3 are being sold by Pyramyd AIR.
The P3
Today begins a full report on the Beeman P3. There was a report on the P3 done back in 2010 by my late friend, Mac. I was recuperating from a long stay in the hospital and Mac was feeding me reports to keep the blog going. I had never owned a P3 and had only fired one a couple times before now. But when I saw the interest that 45Bravo’s guest blog generated, I went on eBay and bought a used P3 to complete this series. Let’s examine that now.
My P3
I bought this pistol on eBay, and there were several to choose from. I bought this one because it came with a Millet SP1 red dot sight that quick research told me was obsolete, but a $229.00 retail when new. The ad said that both the gun and sight worked well, so I bought it. Oh, and did I mention that it came in the original Beeman box with the manual and other papers? And also this P3 was made before Weihrauch went to fiberopotic sights. So — this is a gem; a hidden treasure!
My Beeman P3 came with a Millet SP1 red dot sight. There is room behind the sight to grab the upper slide and pump the gun.
Naturally the first thing I did after unpacking the gun was shoot it through my chronograph, where I discovered the gun shot like new. But I wasn’t worried about that. 45Bravo had already told me how to fix it if I had to. It does shoot strong and we’ll find out how strong in the next report.
Build quality
Okay, we have come to the first comparison. Like many of you I thought the Chinese had skimped on the materials to build the P17. So I examined both guns closely, side-by-side. To my great surprise, the differences were not that great. The black synthetic material that comprises most of the two guns appears identical. I expected the P3 to be finished better than the P17, but both are finished exactly the same. Except for the numbers and letters on both sides of the gun I can see no differences in the synthetic parts.
The metal parts are a different story, but the differences are quite small and require careful examination to spot. First, both the air cylinder that forms the compression chamber and the piston that compresses the air when the top slide is pumped (these are both single stroke pneumatic pistols) have different finishes, and surprisingly the P17 metal parts appear to be finished smoother than the same parts on the P3. The P3 parts appear to be either as the metal was received from the supplier or rough tumbled. The same parts on the P17 appear to be machined smooth.
The exterior of the P17’s compression tube (right) is finished smoother than that of the P3.
However, the screw that clamps and locks the pivot pin through the end of the piston rod to the upper slide is recessed on the P3 and left proud on the P17. The P3 looks like a more finished part.
On the other hand, the P3’s pin-locking screw (left) is recessed, while the P17’s isn’t.
Pumping
I will guess that both pistols pump with the same effort, or within a pound of each other, but the P3 is noticeably smoother to pump. The P17 reaches a peak during compression that’s harder to push through, while the P3 slide never hits that peak. Both pistols fire with an encouraging snap. My P17 shoots deep-seated RWS Hobby pellets at an average 401 f.p.s. I will chronograph the P3 in the next test so we can compare.
Rear sights
The rear sights on both pistols are similar but not identical. The elevation on the P3 adjusts with positive clicks, while the elevation on the P17 is much more vague — no clicks. The notches on both rear sights are square with sharp corners — exactly what I want in a rear sight.
Front sights
As I mentioned the front sight on the P3 is a post with a square top and no fiberoptics. The post sits atop a low ramp. The P17 front sight is identical because it, too, is an older airgun. If you buy either pistol new today you get fiberoptics, front and rear.
The current P3 rear sight has a fiberoptic tube.
The current P3 front sight also has a fiberoptic tube.
Trigger
Now we come to the biggest difference between the two pistols. Both have what appears to be an adjustment screw in the center of the trigger blade.
The P17 trigger is two-stage and, while the manual doesn’t come out and say that it is adjustable, it is. The manual simply recommends that you take the gun to a gunsmith to adjust it, as improper adjustment can make it unsafe. The P3 manual says the two-stage P3 trigger is not adjustable.
I think the triggers on both guns are adjustable, but the sear contact area is changed when the trigger is adjusted. However, the P17 trigger has a lot of travel in the second stage. The P3 trigger’s second stage breaks like a glass rod. The P17 trigger breaks at 2 lbs. 4.5 oz. We will see where the P3 trigger breaks in the next report, but I’m betting it’s lighter.
Summary
That’s our first look at the Beeman P3. As you can see, the P17 resembles it more than a little. I’m leaving the red dot sight mounted until I test the pistol for accuracy, then I might take it off and test the gun with its open sights. I haven’t decided that far ahead yet.
B.B.,
I had to keep referring back and forth the opening paragraph to identify the pistol you are talking about. Could you possibly refer to the P3 as the HW40 in the next article? I kept getting confused between the two.
So far you have pointed out the external differences. Will we see a future article pointing out the internal differences?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I’ll keep that in mind and see what I can do. Over here the P3 is still the better-known name.
B.B.
If I was to choose between the P3 and the P17 I would take the Izzy 46M.
RidgRunner,
The IZH weighs 1 1/8 pounds more than the P3 and P17. At an arm’s length that’s quite a lot.
Michael
Michael,
Ah, but with the Izzy if I miss it is me.
As you well know, the 3 pistols are worlds apart.
While they all share a single stroke pneumatic powerplant,
I would place the differences in the analogy of cars.
Chevette and Corvette (The Beeman Guns) are sold by the same company, both get you from point A to point B, but at different quality.
The IZH46 &46M on the other hand is a bit of an oxymoron, it is built like a tank (something the Russians were known for) but it has precision, (something the Russians were NOT always known for, but it also gets you from point A to point B.
But now that they are banned from being imported, you have to pay a higher price for the forbidden fruit so to speak.
Although I do remember paying $249 for my IZH46 when I bought it to replace my Gamo Compact.
Does anyone know if Russia ever made an airgun with the quality of a Trabant?
Ian
Ian,
Yeah, I know. I think you understand. I own an Izzy. Why settle for less.
I know, a bunch of you out there are thinking “RidgeRunner is an air pistol snob”. That is not it at all. At one time or another I have owned three other air pistols. One of those was a UK Webley Tempest. Another was a Daisy 717. These were actually nice air pistols. But they were not Izzy. I do happen to own one other air pistol and I will never sell it. BB allowed me to take ownership of his Webley Senior and it is my intention that my grandson will one day own it. And my Izzy.
I never said you were a gun snob and would never make that assumption.
But I do understand everyone has their own budget, their own likes and dislikes.
Some people have to have the name, and will buy the P3, or the HW40, and some people will be content to own the P17..
I picked up a 46, and a 46m within a couple of months of each other, after over a year of ownership, I kept the 46, and sold the 46m. (This was when The 46m replaced the 46.)
Not that it was anymore accurate than the other, but for some reason, I always shot and liked the 46 more.
I have never and would never disparage anyone’s choice in women, motorcycles, guns, or airguns.
Ian.
Ian,
Whoa dude, don’t get too deep, serious and heavy here. I do know we all make our choices in life and sometimes they are even the right choice for us. I know there are bunch out there who scratch their heads at some of my choices. I scratch my head at some of my choices.
“BB allowed me to take ownership of his Webley Senior”
RidgeRunner, is that the one B.B. blogged about here?
/blog/2016/08/webley-senior-straight-grip-part-4/
Yes, that should join the Izzy as some classic airguns for you grandson…very cool. =>
I talked him out of the Senior to hang on the wall with this.
/blog/?s=webley+service&btnGo=
They were made about the same time. It is kind of cool to pull them both down and go hunting feral soda cans.
I forgot you had the Webley Service Mark II…sweet! Yeah, those two classics go together for sure! =>
B.B.,
How long is the patent protection period for airguns?
Just curious as to how the Chinese can go around copying other people’s designs and marketing the resultant products, not just domestically, but internationally as well.
Bob,
I’m not sure. 25 years? But that can be stretched with renewals.
B.B.
B.B.,
That’s interesting. I seem to recall the HW40 being launched in 1997 or 1998, but the P17, in Marksman 2004 guise, has been around since, I guess, 2004.
Do companies such as Weihrauch not have recourse to legal action to protect their intellectual property rights?
Bob,
They do have recourse in the courts. But an international case would be expensive and Weihrauch decided not to pursue it that far.
Patent infringements is one of the reasons President Trump has declared our embargo against Chinese goods.
B.B.
B.B.,
Good on President Trump for taking the Chinese to task. They should have to play fair like everyone else.
I cannot imagine how Weihrauch would not win an international court case and be awarded a large settlement. The P17 is an unabashed clone of the HW40. The manufacturer hasn’t even bothered to make cosmetic changes, unlike the manufacturer of the TR5 who at least dressed it up differently so it wouldn’t be confused for an IZH 61.
Disputes over intellectual property are nothing new. In sixth century Ireland there was a legal case between Saint Columcille (aka Saint Columba) and his mentor Saint Finnian. Columcille had secretly copied a psalter belonging to the older man and attempted to keep it when rumbled.
The dispute was brought before the supreme court of the land at the Hill of Tara, where the High King of Ireland, Diarmait mac Cerbaill, found in Finnian’s favour and delivered a famous ruling, summed up in the line: “To every cow its calf, to every book its copy.” The judgment was particularly elegant when you consider that contemporary manuscripts were written on calfskin vellum.
Unfortunately, Columcille rejected the judgement and the dispute escalated into the Battle of Cúl Dreimhne, also known as “The Battle of the Book“, in AD 561, where 3,000 men were killed.
Columcille, as a monk who had taken up arms, was sentenced to exile and as penance was ordered to win as many souls to Christianity as lives had been lost in the battle. He sailed to Scotland with 12 followers and founded a monastery on the island of Iona in 563 AD, from whence Irish monks converted the heathen Pictish and Germanic tribes of northern Britain to Christianity.
Bob,
Sure they could probably win the case, but why spend upwards of a million dollars when all the Chinese would do is stop making the gun? Even if damages were awarded there would be no cash exchanged.
If Weihrauch went after the awaRD it could cost them more than the total to get it, and they would still have to pay the expenses for the initial lawsuit. This is what Trump is trying to influence. Perhaps they won’t change but maybe the Chinese government will start policing their own businesses a little more.
B.B.
“Maybe the Chinese government will start policing their own businesses a little more.”
B.B., I sure hope so, Man, I really do. I confess this whole mess has me worried. Innovation and manufacturing is what made this country great by creating a huge middle class. Now, however, the ultra rich get richer every year, the middle class shrinks each year, and today manufacturing is leaving the U.S. at a greater rate than it ever has before.
Michael
Michael,
From what I hear,… your last 2 points are the opposite of what you state,… currently.
I would not trust China as far as I could throw them. There may however be China players that are more straight up. I think Snow Peak may be one. Beyond that,… I am not up on the $ intricoes and would hesitate to say more.
Chris
intricies? Spell check liked the original,… but the dictionary liked the revised (2nd) version. ?
Maybe I should not try to use such “big” words,.. eh? 😉 Hey,… I give it my best shot and I do like odd words or words not used that often.
How about “convoluted details”? That,…. I can do! 🙂
Chris
Chris,
I don’t trust the Chinese government, our government, our big corporations or the extremely rich as far as I could throw any of them.
Michael
Michael,
Well,… I was not going to go quite that far,…. but I am in full agreement! Proceed with your eyes (wide open) on all the afore mentioned! 🙂
Good evening,…… Chris
B.B.,
In that case, I guess the surprising thing is that the Chinese have not cloned every other airgun from Weihrauch and the rest of the top Western manufacturers.
I recall seeing on the news about 15 years ago, when there was still a big market for DVDs and CDs, a steamroller being used by police to destroy thousands of confiscated pirated discs somewhere. Funny how some industries are protected more than others.
> but maybe the Chinese government will start policing their own businesses a little more.
From what I know of Chinese businesses, I believe this is unlikely to happen. The Chinese don’t embrace the west’s notion of “intellectual property.” Any technology or design that’s created there is up for grabs when it goes public and Chinese companies expect it to be “shared and shared alike.” It’s a completely different business culture from our culture.
-Cal
” ‘To every cow belongs her calf, therefore to every book belongs its copy.’ King Diarmait mac Cerbaill.
“That quote, in essence, conveyed the king’s decision regarding what was essentially the first copyright case ever brought before an Irish court and perhaps the world.”
(from: https://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/the-battle-of-c-l-dreimhne-battle-of-the-book-1 )
Bob, great stuff! I love history, but I was unaware of this battle; thank you for the lesson. =>
Dave,
Glad you enjoyed it!
What always amazed me about that story was that men of the cloth would go to war with each other over a book. But, as the saying says “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there”.
“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there”.
Good one, man! =>
B.B.,
Import tariffs, not an embargo.
Unfortunately, the tariffs are paid mostly (but not entirely) by the consumer of the country that imposes them. China is suffering some sales losses and is no doubt choosing to take some of the hit of the tariffs, but soon we will pay most of the tariffs at Walmart, etc. China gets hurt, the U.S. gets hurt, U.S. manufacturers get hurt, and U.S. consumers get hurt.
Many of the family soybean farms here in Illinois, Indiana and Iowa will go bankrupt this fall.
Christmas will be a non-materialist holiday this year, not entirely bad, I think. :^)
Michael
Michael,
You’re right. I got sloppy with my wording, and this isn’t an embargo at all. I am hearing that the Chinese are really getting hurt from this!
B.B.
B.B.,
They are getting hurt, but the Chinese have a long history of feeling pain. It wasn’t that long ago that the Chinese people were suffering in a Maoist economy after suffering through an Imperial economy. We Americans, on the other hand, have been coddled and softened up, I’m afraid.
Also, there is the saying, “Americans are asked the time and they look at their wristwatches. Chinese are asked the time, and they look at their calendars.” Is the U.S. willing to wait forty, fifty years? The Chinese probably are. :^(
Michael
Bob,
Chinese copies (replicas, really, as they are well executed) of Gibson guitars have the Gibson logo on the front of the headstock and “Made in U.S.A.” on the rear. They are 85-95% the quality of a Gibson but are priced 90% lower ($300 instead of $3000).
Michael
Michael,
Are those Chinese guitars allowed into the US??
Surely having “Made in U.S.A.” on them alone constitutes fraud?
Bob,
They are sold on major online websites and imported into the U.S. I bought one but asked that it be “sterile,” meaning no logo or markings of any kind. It does have the trademarked “open-book” headstock profile of Gibsons.
Very well made, although the hardware (tuners, bridge, tailpiece, wiring, and pickups) was cheap, and I replaced that for around $200. It still came in at about $500 shipped. A comparable Gibson would have an MSRP of probably $4500 and a “street price” of maybe $3000.
Michael
Bob,
I think having “Gibson” is theft of a trademarked brand and Made in USA is an international trade violation of the first order. But given that those who purchase these know they are not made in the U.S., I guess it isn’t exactly fraud.
I bought mine on the condition it did not have “Gibson” or “Made in USA” on it. It’s wrong to encourage that sort of thing by the Chinese, and it is essentially receiving stolen trademarks/property. Besides, if I kick the bucket and my widow sells it to someone, I want both parties to know it is a no-name guitar.
Michael
Michael,
Wow! I had no idea a good guitar costs so much. Do you play in a band? Fair play to you for insisting that the replica you ordered did not have fake logos on it.
Bob,
A very good Gibson, Paul Reed Smith or Martin made in the USA costs that much, and a very good American-made Fender isn’t too far behind in price. But Mexican-made Fenders, Korean-made Gibsons, Korean-made Paul Reed Smiths, Korean-made Martins, and Canadian-made Godins and Seagulls are all fine playing and sounding guitars and cost below $1000,some models below $500. Incidentally, these days Japanese-made versions of these brands cost nearly as much as USA made ones. Chinese and Malaysian made versions of these brands tend to be hit-or-miss regarding quality. All of the above are genuinely branded guiitars, not knock-offs.
Of course with Gibson, Fender, Paul Reed Smith and Martin much of what one pays for is the logo on the headstock. And if one is willing to pay quite a bit more for both that and it having been made in the USA, well, they will happily take your money. :^)
Michael
Patents are for a technology, not the design itself. If Weihrauch had a patent on a particular pneumatic pump design that reduced pump effort, then patent law would mean that Beeman (or anyone else) shouldn’t be able to use that new pump mechanism without a license agreement from Weihrauch.
Put another way, the main barrier to 1911 clones was the patents on its operating mechanism (recall that Browning had to make some design changes for the Hi-Power to avoid infringing on his patents on his own work from the 1911 that were owned by Colt), and nothing to do with its design.
For something like an 870 or 10/22 where their isn’t anything fundamentally new, nothing legally protects the design from being reverse-engineered and copied (like a chef’s recipe or a bartender’s cocktail).
The manufacturer may have some proprietary or patented production process that prevents a copy from being made as well or as cheaply, but the design itself is free game.
Chanman,
Yep, right on the money. Copyrights (creative ownership?) and Trademarks (branding) are other matters. All are important in commerce.
Michael
Chanman,
That’s interesting. So, are not all the Colt 1911 clones out there made under licence?
I’d be surprised if any of the 1911s have anything to do with Colt, but then, that’s no different than ARs, or SAA revolvers. Or Valmets and Galils and Kalashnikov.
Colt may get a cut out of AR sales by Colt Canada (formerly Diemaco) as Diemaco did have an explicit license agreement, complete with technical data transfer and possibly help setting up the production facilities – like HK and the various state-level manufacturers of the G3/MP5 (Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Greece etc. etc.)
Regarding the Beeman P3/P17 saga, one thing that’s missing is who bankrolled the development of the design and what their rights. Usually, the party commissioning the design keeps all the rights, but there are arrangements. IBM agreeing to let Microsoft license MS-DOS instead of buying it outright was the pivotal move that led to the ascendance of PC-clones in the 1980s as the IBM PC used off-the-shelf components almost exclusively.
As a seller themselves, Beeman may well have been interested in working out a deal with Industry Group to provide an entry-level offering for their lineup. This scenario would be no different than the US military contracting FN to make M4/M16s as part of the contracts with Colt would have involved a transfer of the full technical data package and manufacturing rights.
There’s a reason why when Colt went after Bushmaster and HK back around 2004, Colt’s claim was that they had trademarked the name ‘M4’ instead of any technical reasons.
B.B.
As a lowly a consumer, I don’t see the value of the P3 compared to a P17, legalese aside. Try making a P1 for the same cut rate price…..
Chibsons are guitar shaped objects that can have nice paint on them, tho. They will never appreciate in value like a real Bonafide Gibson.Outright fakes are more rare, and many fine guitars can be had for a great savings, if you don’t have the outrageous money for an American made Fender or a Gibson. The consumer needs to know what they are paying for, and choose wisely.
Protecting one’s patents has always been a choice makers are confronted with, and not always an option.
It will take Vietnam years to learn how to make stuff, just like it took China. One thing is for sure, they will never make those things here. Mr Trump needs to learn how to negotiate better, IMHO.
Roberto
Roberto,
You are right about little resale value, but the initial outlay is so little, it doesn’t really matter to most players who just want a good playing and good sounding guitar. A “Chibson” with the junk hardware replaced with good stuff runs $500-$550. At that price one can play it for fifteen years and sell it for $350.
I have a “Chibson” ES-335, and except for the junk hardware, which I have replaced, it is the equal, perhaps superior, to my Kalamazoo made 1974 one and Nashville-made 1990s one. The wood, joinery, nitrocellulose finish, trim, is all top-notch, as good as Gibson Custom Shop or Paul Reed Smith.
Michael
Don’t get me started on welding equipment either. Amazon is your friend. If folks dont like the way things are,
we never should have gone shopping at Walmart in the first place. We vote by what we buy.
Where’s my electric Ford F150? I’m tired of waiting for the future to get here.
Sorry Chevron, the love affair is over.
R
Roberto,
We think alike on a lot of things. :^)
Sombody is going to get rich creating and making green tech. Why can’t it be the U.S?
Michael
The instruction leaflet that came with a HW40 I bought in 2000 (so non-fibre optic sights) is quite clear on adjusting the trigger:
“Adjustment of the let-off point – hard: turn to left, soft: turn to right”
with reference to the screw in the blade.
The current Weihrauch manual (available as a pdf on their website) is a bit more cautious:
“Your air pistol is equipped with an adjustable trigger.
The let-off point pull setting, as it comes from the factory, is usually the best for the airgun in question and should not be altered.
Warning: Modification of the gun mechanism may cause a gun to malfunction; and tampering with a gun may make it unsafe to use.
Always check before, that the gun is not cocked and/or loaded.
– turn to left: shorter – turn to right: longer.”
Regarding some of the external metal parts (trigger, safety and ‘hammer’), it looks to me that the Weihrauch’s parts are cast but are then otherwise unfinished alloy that will dull with use but can be polished, while those on a Beeman clone seem to be plated, or something, keeping a much higher shine.
Iain
Lain,
Wow! Thank you for that!
This is the difference between the manual for a gun sold in the litigious United States and one sold outside this country. This is why having readers from other parts of the world is so valuable.
B.B.
Iain as in Ian (ee-un)? These fonts get me confused.
I assumed Lain as in lane.
B.B.
B.B.,
These blasted fonts! ;^)
Nope, it’s “Ee-un.” I copied, pasted into a Word document, and changed it to a serifed font, Times New Roman. It’s a capital “eye,” not a lower-case “el.”
Michael
Michael,
Thanks! Why didn’t eye think of that? 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
I just had to look it up, because I have noticed both spellings for years. The name is a descendant of “John.” “Ian” is the “Anglicization (Englification) of Iian.” “Iain” is the original, Scottish Gaelic spelling.
Michael
It’s iain (lower case for clarity). Just a different spelling of ian. Edit – I see Michael is correct in that it’s the Scottish spelling.
Regarding the Beeman clone, this shows the difference between the hammer, which is visible externally, and the valve housing. On the Weihrauch, mine at least, there isn’t any difference.
The hole in the Weihrauch’s hammer, by the way, was made by me – they are usually meant to look like that aren’t they, those style of hammer spurs?
Iain
Iain,
Just like the actor Iain Glen (Game of Thrones, Resident Evil: Final Chapter).
Michael
Michael,
Precisely.
I think my first photo just shows another slight difference between the Weihrauch and Beeman clone – the pins through the frame and overlever that act as pivot and seat for the ‘hammer’. On the Weihrauch these are just plain steel pins, a push fit in the synthetic material (and not a problem?)
On the Beeman clone, one end of each is splined to grip the material, meaning it is necessary to be careful about pushing them out from the other end. I’m not sure if they’ve always been like this, I seem to recall mention of them working loose and needing some sort of fix to prevent this. It’s possible, perhaps, that the original Chinese production copied the plain pins but the tolerances they were able to hold to wouldn’t work in the way that the German production would.
This is not an issue on either gun with the larger pin passing through the valve housing and frame, which in either case is secured by a grub screw.
Iain
Iain,
If you read my comment, that is currently at the bottom of this comment section, you’ll understand why I’m asking this. What markings are on the frames of your HW40 and “Beeman clone” as you called it? Also could you clarify which Beeman you have, P3 or P17? I share BB’s appreciation for the value of overseas airgun owners and thanks in advance.
Weihrauch HW40:
HW 40 PCA on left of frame (where the gun shown at the start of the blog has ‘Beeman P3’)
! WARNING ! Read owners manual before use available free from Weihrauch D-97634 Mellrichstadt and the freimark (F-in-pentagon) on right of frame.
Serial number on base of grip – the frame, not the right hand removable grip.
Cal.177″ / 4.5 mm Made in Germany on inside of overlever.
These markings are all moulded in. The instruction leaflet and packaging – a cardboard box – are all Weihrauch branded.
What I refered to as the Beeman clone is marked:
Beeman P17 and F-in-pentagon on left of frame.
! WARNING ! Before using , read free manual from S/R Industries, INC Santa Fe Springs, California 90670 USA on right of frame.
Serial number on base of grip.
Cal. .177″ / 4.5 mm Made in China on inside of overlever.
The blister packaging and instruction leaflet refer however to the Beeman Model 2004, and the diagrams of the gun show ‘Model 2004’ in the frame and plain open sights without fibre-optic inserts – this is very obvious in the shape of the front sight. I’m not sure now, and I might be thinking of something else, but it is possible that the markings on the left and right of the frame had been re-branded by being overlabelled with a black/silver sticker: what I described above is what is moulded in the plastic.
Hope this helps (and curse these blasted time zones)
Iain
Iian – UK,
Thanks so much for responding. That is exactly what I wanted to know about your guns. I didn’t think of looking inside the “slide” of my P17, but when I did, I found that it was marked with the caliber and ” Made in China” just as yours was. Now we need to hear from some recent Beeman P3 purchasers to see if their guns have, in fact, some markings that indicate if they are made somewhere in Europe or in Asia. BB says his isn’t marked.
I live in the Eastern Time Zone, so does that make you 5 hrs earlier than me?
Half
Posted this yesterday but forgot to enter the link…duh
I know some of you have the Gauntlet PCP. Here is a YouTube video posted by Rick Rehm (Shooter1721) where he reviews a Gauntlet tuned by Hajjimoto. Rick is using the new JSB Hades pellets and the new FX chronograph. I think you will find it interesting just how well a Gauntlet can be tuned. Hajimoto made a ton of changes, both inside and out. It looks really cool and shoots even better than it looks. Wow! Is all I can say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVtB1xbfmLg
Geo
Geo,
Thank you for that. Very nice. The sound it made was a bit odd. Hammer bounce,… causing more air release,… “burping”,…. I do not know. Maybe GF1 will weigh in?. Overall very nice, well thought out and maybe a worthy “pay up, upgrade”. I like the chrono too,… but it looks to take a smart phone, which I do not have. My Shooting Chrony with corded remote works nice for me,…. for now.
Thank you,……. Chris
Geo791,
We must subscribe to the same channels. You are the only one here that routinely refers to the videos that I watch on a daily basis. 😉
Half
BB
Been a while since I posted. My ex was involved in a car crash in June that totaled it and I am repairing it. The property needs to be in fire prevention shape and now she is in the hospital for possible pancreas problems again. And a very good friend of mine is developing Alzheimer’s and can’t pass his drivers license test yet to renew it.
Both the P3 and P17 are listed as 4 star pistols. Perhaps for different reasons ? But none the less everyone seems to be happy with them.
But when you consider that you can purchase ‘ seven ‘ P17’s and throw in a dot sight and 500 pellets for the same price as one P3 there better be some really significant improvements and it better out perform any other pump
pistols at or below the $320, price mark.
I have two P17’s myself. The last one I got on a good sale has those glowing things on top and was cheap enough to keep in the garage.
When it came to getting my bang for the buck I went with a .22 Webley Ultra a while back.
Bob,
First of all I will pray for your ex-wife to recuperate and get out of the hospital. I was hospitalized for 3.5 months in 2010 for a pancreas problem, so I sympathize.
I just learned today how to adjust the P17 trigger. If I can get it close to the P3 trigger I think we will have our winner, because there isn’t much more any pistol can do that the P17 hasn’t already done.
And that is why I am running this report!
B.B.
Thank you BB.
I am a little short on sympathy for her this second time around. She refused to stop smoking and keeps a mug of Dr Pepper on her bedside table 24/7.
I’m not sure if it’s dumb luck or what but the grip on the P17 is the most comfortable one I have. A total pleasure to hold and shoot. I see others that have the same shape and perhaps they are comfortable as well but this one I have.
Speaking of grips. I never added more info to the M1 Carbine blog. I have 11 points of interest not mentioned anywhere but one of them is the width of the stock, especially at the grip area. It’s way too fat on both the wood and composite plastic. The Airsoft and real steel stocks are much easier to hold.
The Springfield versions carry the wide slab sides along the stock too far back into the grip area and as a result you can only rest your thumb on top, near the receiver retaining lug, instead of wrapping it around the grip area. Very uncomfortable and not too secure when held. I switched the airsoft wood stock with the plastic bb carbine, much better.
Bob M
BB,
Please do pass on that info on the P17 trigger
Bob M
Bob,
Prayers as well.
Me,… at 58,… I am still figuring on getting out of this life alive! LOL!,… or not. Plenty of “sympathy” cards getting passed around at work,.. an Aunt recently passed and Mom and Dad are 80 and 82 respectively. I getting the funny feeling that I may need to “rethink” my long held position on life matters. 😉 I am an optimist,… which they say can increase life span,… but still. My Grandpa had Alzheimer’s and while it may have slowed some with treatment,… it never got better. I am not sure I would want to be driving if I knew I had it. Then,… could I even make that call?
Super cool looking pistol by the way. That one has slipped under my radar.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for both comments.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well that aftermarket folding grip fit and blended in on the Webley. It slides right over the trigger guard. It is also known as the Webley Alecto Ultra. Longer barrel and in .22. BB did a blog on the regular Alecto a while back. It only has Webley Ultra on the pistol.
Know what you mean about that drivers license and Alzheimer’s. He has a way to go yet and sticks mostly to the country. Kind of “Damned if you do and damned if you don’t” pass it situation. The test will decide.
Two questions I may have mentioned before really opened my eyes when it comes to old age
A fellow Kit Car clubber said one day he opened his garage door, stood there, looked around and decided there was no way in hell he could ever complete everything , “What the hell was I thinking? … I’m gonna live forever ?”
Another time a fellow aircraft mechanic and I were discussing all the things we had that needed repair at home and he asked me, ” Which of those twenty cars and bikes or home projects are you going to complete in the next 30 days?” I was kind of embarrassed to say “Well … none”. To which he replied “And you probably never will. Your just like my father. You really don’t need to take care of any of them and procrastination has settled in. He left me with a hell of a mess to clean up”.
Bob M
Bob M,
I’m 70 so I get to say what I please!
At 58 you need to decide about what level of functional fitness you can be satisfied with. If you have good systemic health, get a Personal Trainer to do an evaluation on your Functional Fitness. Get a writen baseline report and an recommended improvement program to get your body in balance. It is the last time you get to decide if you will have a V-8 for life or if you go out with only 3 or less cylinders functioning. I look at most of my fellow oldies and am thankful that God has not given me all to many health problems and that I chose to keep all cylinders ticking over. It take hard work to do it but the results have been worth it all! I have perhaps 25 good years left and I keep the inertia from stopping me from getting my To-Do List smaller every day.
I refuse to leave a mess of a property behind for my son to clean up! I lived that with both my parents and my In-Laws….
Best wishes and make good choices!
shootski
Shootski
You may have me confused with Chris. I’m 72 and retain 90% of my heart function on a treadmill. I’m in great shape.
I postponed a lot of projects for something to do in retirement. However when it came I realized I was debt free, had five sources of income for life and free healthcare.
Most of the projects lost the need or desire I had to get them done. I simply went out and purchased replacements for anything critical. Everything just turned into stuff I dragged into my retirement that I now need to dispose of or set deadlines to actually accomplish and life keeps getting in the way. And it’s a big pain to make a 40 mile round trip to get something you discover you need to continue the job.. But thanks for the advice. We can all use a little encouragement. Oh yes, I absolutely had no plans to put my life on hold for years caring for my ex wife too !
Bob M
Bob M,
Somehow I replied to myself below?
Trying once more; see below.
shootski
Bob M,
Only got your age confused! The rest still applies without the preaching to the 50 something’s to get or stay in shape. I’m lucky in the finance department just as you are; which is a stupendous blessing. My wife and I are working hard to streamline the inevitable transfer of our possesions (to include airguns and PB) and wealth to our now adult offspring. Have gone the route of a Trust to avoid giving it to the bureaucrats to distribute it to everyone who don’t deserve a Trime (makes my post Germane to BB’s blog) of it.
Best wishes!
shootski
Shootski
I have discussed my lack of grandchildren with my daughters as being part of my clutter problem and backlog of things to, ” That’s where it was all meant to go and they were to be helping me ” 🙂
Not having a basement or attic in the home adds to the problem.
Doesn’t help much with them and they have no interest in airguns. A trust is in the works here too . Just found a lost half brother younger than my oldest daughter with three nephews but getting together is not likely to happen much they live across the country in NY. I will need to sell off my airguns.
Bob M
Shootski,
My Grandma used to say that,… but I think she was closer to 80 at the time. Premature on your part? 😉 Prior to that,…. she said whatever she wanted to anyways! 😉 Blunt and to the point would be an understatement.
Having just downsized Mom and Dad,… it was quite the ordeal. Several months. The yard and house was too much for Dad and Mom fought moving till the end. What gave?,.. I am not sure. I was up there at least 1 day every weekend for the last 3 years,.. Summer or Winter. She would often say that she was going to let us kids sort through the “stuff”. Well,… not only did we,… but she also. And,.. still is. Moving done and old house sold in 1 day with upping bids. Not bad.
Having moved a few times myself and finding stuff that I had not used for years,… nor likely ever would,… pretty well broke me of the “pack-rat” mentality. If I have “too much” of anything,.. it is air gun stuff. The rest?,… pretty minimal. I will live with that for now.
Good points on aging/health. I am pretty sure? (yes!) that I need to get up to speed on that. I did research your “salami” diet suggestion and found it interesting. (even made some notes) I did learn some things I did not know. From what I gathered,.. in “general”,.. eat “right” and do not eat more than what you can burn in calories/exercise. I cook great, like to eat and not exactly an exercise advocate. I do still work and walk at least 3 miles a day at work. Still,…. further study is required/needed to get up to speed. I do not eat out or drink pop like 99% of the population,…. so I figure that I am off to a pretty good start.
No comments on Nitrites and Nitrates (preservatives,… generally in processed meat)? They seem to be moving out pretty fast. Shelf stable meats like Salami, being forward.
Chris
Chris
Well turns out he failed the drivers license test for the last time but still refuses to believe he has Alzheimer’s. (Just old age) He will be 71 and done driving on the 26th. People never plan for this.
Bob M
Bob,
My Grandpa went into the side wall of his garage and then later,.. into the rear wall,… while pulling in. Public senior groups/transportation are more abundant these days for the most part. Still,… a tuff thing to come to grips with.
Chris
BB,
Do you have something on or with that gun that indicates that it is made in Germany? The pics on PA show some unreadable words along with “Air Venturi, Cleveland Ohio” on the right side of the frame. That’s the only marks I see. Those pics are even missing the “F” in the pentagon required for German sales, if I understand correctly. Even my lowly P17s have that mark. On the right side of my P17s there are markings that refer the owner of the gun to S/R Industries,Inc in Santa Fe Springs,CA.
What markings do all you other P3, P17 and HW40 owners have on your guns to indicate country of origin or importer? I’m beginning to think maybe among recent P3s and P17s, at least, that they are ALL made in China and the current importer decides what to call it and how much to charge. I would especially like to hear from HW40 and Marksman owners to see if we can establish this fact.
Additionally, if the manual you are referring to is the one on PA’s site, it appears to be an Air Venturi production. They could probably shed some light on whether the trigger adjustment discrepancies are because of lawsuit fears or for some other reasons.
Here’s those markings on my P17s.
Half
Half,
No marking where it was made and no Freimark.
B.B.
Weihrauch HW 40 (bought in 2000) at top, and Beeman P17 at bottom.
Iain
Iain,
Thanks again. You have been a real fountain of information on these airguns! Thanks to you I have the trigger on my P17 halfway adjusted. It syill has travel in the second stage, but not as much.
B.B.
BB,
I know that you said your P3 had no markings as to country of origin, but if you haven’t already, could you look under the “slide” of your gun for this information, as that is where Iian says his HW 40 and P17 are marked? And you didn’t say what was molded into the panel on the right side of your P3’s frame in your response to my original questions.
Half
Half,
You should have read my reply to Iian earlier. I said my slide was also marked as his is.
B.B.
BB,
I don’t know what’s going on, but I just reread all of your comments in this report twice and don’t see any wherein you described the markings that I’m asking about, other than to say, in a direct response to me, “No marking where it was made and no Freimark.”
Are you now saying that your P3 is marked like Iian’s HW40, as he describes it in his response to me in this sentence, “! WARNING ! Read owners manual before use available free from Weihrauch D-97634 Mellrichstadt and the freimark (F-in-pentagon) on right of frame.” along with “Cal.177″ / 4.5 mm Made in Germany on inside of overlever” as he also reported in his response to my query?
Half
Half,
I guess I didn’t spell it out.
Iain,
“Thanks again. You have been a real fountain of information on these airguns! Thanks to you I have the trigger on my P17 halfway adjusted. It still has travel in the second stage, but not as much.”
B.B.
BB,
I think we may be talking about two different things. Thanks for responding.
Half
Half,
What I meant is I didn’t specifically mention that I found the same markings on my guns that he showed on his. I did, but I glossed over it and just thanked him for all he did.
B.B.