by B.B. Pelletier
Photos and testing by Earl “Mac” McDonald
The Marksman model 60 was a special version of the famed HW77 air rifle.
Well, I last reported on this rifle back before Christmas. Do you remember it? This is the Marksman model 60 version of the famed HW77 underlever air rifle that’s still available today. Back when this one was selling, Marksman discounted it deeply, making it one of the great sleepers of all time. It sold for less money when new back in the early 1990s, and it still commands less money on the used market, even though it’s an HW77 rifle is every respect. Go figure, but use this knowledge to enrich yourself should the opportunity ever arise, as it did for Mac.
Today, we’ll look at the performance, and I have to remind you that back when this rifle was new, 12 foot-pounds was a lot bigger thing than it is today. The Germans didn’t understand how free we are here in the U.S., and they viewed the UK limit of 12 foot-pounds as magnum power since they were restricted to less than 6 foot-pounds within their own country.
The American buyers obviously didn’t understand much about energy, either. They just bought things based on price, so the opportunity to get a 14 foot-pound air rifle slipped right past them. Beeman was the only company that had a clue, and they bought the full-powered American-spec HW77 rifle and carbine.
What I’m telling you is that this model 60 is a 12 foot-pound gun, which means it will never (or should never) rise up to that limit. To remain legal in the UK as an airgun and not a firearm, it must always register LESS than 12 foot-pounds regardless of what pellet is used.
Mac tested a number of different pellets. Many of these he’ll also test for accuracy, so we’ll see performance in both dimensions.
JSB Exact Diablolo 8.4-grain pellets
The 8.4-grain JSB Exact Diabolo dome pellet is a classic one that should always be tested in a springer that isn’t a super-magnum. It should be about perfect for this rifle. They averaged 784 f.p.s. in this rifle with a total velocity spread of just 11 f.p.s. The range went from 777 to 788 f.p.s. They produced 11.47 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
Bear in mind that this rifle is 25 years old or more and hasn’t been shot at all for the past 10 years. It has never been tuned (I know the history of the gun and owner and verify this as correct), and Mac did nothing but shoot it when he got it. So, all you guys who think you have to tear into these guns the moment you get them, take a minute and reflect on that. These things are great just as they come from the factory and do not need to be lubricated or taken apart for many decades, for the most part.
JSB Exact Diabolo Heavy 10.2-grain domed pellets
The next pellet Mac tested was the 10.2-grain JSB Exact dome. It’s a heavy pellet for a springer, and it averaged 690 f.p.s. in this rifle. The velocity spread was 16 f.p.s., from 681 to 697 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 10.79 foot-pounds. So, here’s a case of a heavier pellet not performing as well in a springer, and in my experience, this is typical.
RWS Superdome pellets
The RWS Superdome is one of Mac’s favorite pellets. He has touted them to me for many years, and I know this opinion is shared by many of the readers of this blog. In this rifle, they averaged 778 f.p.s., however the extreme velocity spread was a surprising 46 f.p.s. They ranged from 754 to 800 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 11.16 foot-pounds.
RWS Hobby pellets
UK airgun manufacturers and retailers have to beware of lightweight lead pellets like the RWS Hobby. That’s because lightweight lead pellets are often the most efficient in spring-piston guns, and it’s these pellets that can trip the 12 foot-pound legal limit. In the test rifle, they averaged 870 f.p.s. with an extreme spread of 37 f.p.s. They ranged from 851 to 888 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 11.77 foot-pounds, the highest of all pellets tested.
RWS HyperMAX pellets
Just for fun, Mac tested the rifle with RWS Hypermax pellets. They often increase the velocity of an airgun by up to several hundred f.p.s. In the Marksman model 60, they averaged 959 f.p.s. with an extreme spread of 32 f.p.s. They ranged from 937 to 969 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 10.62 foot-pounds.
Crosman Premier lite pellets
Next, Mac tested the 7.9-grain Crosman Premier domed pellet. It would have been a classic good pellet to use in this rifle in its day, and even today. It averaged 790 f.p.s. with an extreme velocity spread of 17 f.p.s. over ten shots. The range went from 781 to 798 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 10.95 foot-pounds.
Crosman Premier heavy pellets
The last pellet Mac tested was the 10.5-grain Crosman Premier heavy dome. While heavier pellets are generally not recommended for spring-piston guns of average power like the test rifle, you should always test them to make sure you haven’t overlooked a diamond. Sometimes, life can surprise you. In this rifle they averaged 619 f.p.s,. with a spread of 34 f.p.s., from 591 to 625 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 8.94 foot-pounds…the lowest recorded in this test.
Mac shoots several shots with each new pellet before recording the velocity. This is to condition the bore to the new pellet, and it seems to improve stability.
Well, there you have it. The Marksman model 60 is a 12 foot-pound air rifle. That means all Marksman model 60 and 61 air rifles are probably 12 foot-pounds, as well. It’s difficult to boost the power of these guns as their strokes have been shortened to keep the guns legal under all circumstances. Who cares? For a lot less money, you can get a real HW77 rifle with all the bells and whistles. Keep your eyes open for Marksman 60 and 61 rifles!
90 thoughts on “Marksman model 60 – Part 2”
Sorry this is off subject, but which would be the best airgun. A Benjamin Marauder .22 cal(I know it is a very accurate gun, but kinda expensive), or a Walther Falcon Hunter .22 cal(which is better, Nitro Piston or the regular factory spring?). We farm grapes and apples, so there is sometimes squirrels and plenty of birds. How many shots can I get off one fill on the Marauder-so I won’t have to adjust the scope? How long does it take to refill? Could I refill it from an air-compressor with a special whatever attached to the end? Does anyone have a Walther Falcon? And how long does the spring last compared to the Nitro-Piston?
You can’t use a standard shop compressor with a PCP. You would need 2,000-3000psi. So then you get a PCP you will need a hand pump or a scuba setup to fill it. If considering a scuba setup, you have to find a place where you can get the tank filled. Tanks have to be tested every so often too, so that will be more money.
Springers are harder to shoot than a PCP. (gas ram or not). The rams will not buzz when fired, and will probably last longer than a spring…particularly in a super magnum.
You need to take a look at how far you will be shooting. What are your expectations? Do you need that much power? You are not going to get varmint rifle range out of any airgun. You won’t get close to .22lr range and trajectory either.
We need to know what you expect to get. There are a lot of people that are looking for performance that is unrealistic.
I have shot some squirrel up to 40yds with both .177 and .22 . Pest birds out to 55-65yds with both calibers on elevated angle shots. Range estimation is critical with airguns. Accuracy is super important because you are not going to blow them to pieces with a poor hit.
Forget the stories about kills at 100yds or better. Wind and trajectory make such shots impractical under most hunting conditions. I would not attempt such shots with a .22lr. It can be done, but don’t count on it as being easy or routine.
I have a RWS 34p .22 cal now, and have never had nor shot a firearm. The range of my shots will be roughly 35-70 yds(I leave my rifle sighted in for 35yds and use the mil-dot estimation for birds beyond that. I think I know how to use that good, as this past September, I shot 3 birds at 115, 95, and 105 yds-with my scope sighted in on my RWS for 35 yds.) 🙂
I’m kinda leaning toward the Walther Falcon because it is way cheaper with close to-if not the same fps with regular pellets as the Marauder. I know the Marauder is really accurate, but is the Walther?
I was going to say that the 34 would be good if you were not looking for more range. Since you are looking to stretch it out from where you are, you could pick up another 10-20yds with a hotter rifle without having too much range estimation trouble. Beyond that you need to be pretty good . For me that means a laser rangefinder and a ballistics chart. 70 yds is going to be a stretch without some help.
The Walther, I don’t know. No idea how well it can shoot (on the average) at that kind of distance. Probably not as good as the Marauder. Some shoot better than others . Some can be very good, and others very bad as the luck of the draw turns out. You might have trouble with either one at 70yds . That’s a long way to carry a tight enough group.
Tried stealth? Camo and or stalking? Anything for more of an edge. Camo blind?
just a thought but if you can take a bird out at 105 yards, (off hand?) maybe you should think about getting a .177 rifle and start competing in Field Target Competitions. I don’t think I could see a grackle or blackbird at 105 yards! We’ll all help you along. In fact, one of our own, Wayne Burns, fell in love with Field Target so heavily, he started his own range!
Yes all three shots were off-hand(with a 4x32AO Leapers scope). Competitions? Any in WA?
Sounds like you have talent.
I was pretty good when I was your age. I sure went through a lot of ammo.
I lived on a farm with a lot of trees, barns, livestock, and a couple feed lots. Not enough starlings, but the sparrows were plentiful. Once in a while a pidgeon.
Daytime and nightime hunting(with flashlight) for vermin. Squirrel during season.
Summer or winter day and night.
Even some trapping…it went toward ammo.
Enjoy it before you get old like me.
Conor, you need to get in touch with Wacky Wayne Burns! I can’t find Wayne’s e-mail right now – someone help this young man out!
Not all long range shots hit the bird, some hit the branch they sit on, whiz over their heads, ect.(Like an hour ago, aiming on the second-and-a-half dot above a dove hit and killed it @ 70 yds.) But I always say that anyone can shoot accurately at long ranges by,(having a mil-dot estimation scope helps) leaving your gun sighted in for 35yds, and shooting at targets(I use empty pellet tins) at consecutive distances like 40,45,50….90,95,100….. and know how far to aim above the target ect. And knowing your gun, and its speed.
The coolest shot I ever made…
I took a shot at a perched crow one time with an old 16guage break action shotgun (single barrel) with a deer slug.
It would have been hilarious if I had made the dead center hit that I was trying for. Imagine feathers and meat flying all over.
Instead, I hit the tree branch right between his feet. It cut the tree branch completely in half. Probably blew splinters and bark up his butt. For a moment he was hanging onto two seperate pieces of tree branch. Ever see a crow do the splits?
Never saw a crow go into such a panic before or since. It was fantastic.
Let me give you some figures as an example. These will not precisely match either rifle, but will be somewhere in the neighborhood (roughly).
15.9gr Exacts. MV 900fps. Scope height 2.5″. .5″ kill zone. Zero 23.5yds.
You see that it is going to start dropping like a rock beyond PBR. Very important the know range and trajectory.
If you have a lot of wind, then things get really unpredictable.
A-Pabst Blue Ribbon beer
B-Professional Bull Riders association (Daisy sponsors some of these events)
C-Precision Bolt Rifle
D-Patrol Bolt Rifle
E-Powder Burning Rifle
F-None of the above
‘F’ …..as if you didn’t know.
Pabst Blue Ribbon beer is the first & only thing I think of when someone says PBR 🙂
I don’t even think of Pabst. Yuengling is the only real beer, unless you happen to be going to Germany.
Yesterday, I started wondering, following a little teasing I had with AlanL regarding addiction to air rifles, which one of my rifles (I have 9) are the most accurate for me to shoot? Since only 6 have scopes, this narrowed things down a bit. I’m not like Mac and can’t shoot iron sights as accurately as a scoped rifle. I discovered I hadn’t selected a pellet that was most accurate for one rifle, the RWS 52 so that testing had to be done last night. Now I’m ready for the shoot-off.
Anyone interested in what my results will be? BB, Edith, interested in seeing a blog?
Anytime you want to write a guest blog we want it!
Possum Belly Ravioli….for Italian rednecks.
Also…Pretty Big Redneck. Goes well with pickup trucks, Blue Ribbon, trailer parks, bar fights, shot kick music, and road kill soup.
If you want to hit the squirrels, get the Marauder pistol (thought the rifle would even be better).
Plan on buying the support package, which means either a scuba tank or a hand pump.
I have another report coming up on the Marauder pistol.
I don’t know, $3??.?? is a lot of dough to throw around. I’m only looking because there is a good chance I might win a contest and get $500. But $300 for a pistol? I’m only 15 and not sure if that is very wise. 😉
p.s. Maybe 15 years down the road I’ll consider the pistol(if nothing else better than that has come out by then;-)
What kind of air rifle/pistol do you have now?
I have an RWS 34p .22 cal(which only goes 680-700 fps with 13.43 gr. JSB pellets, and a Crosman 1377c.
cool. I was hoping you were not saving up for the “perfect” gun, as your first one. I love my 1377, my new stock will be here this week. Seems either of what you have will kill a squirrel.
I have 2 Walther Force 1000s in .177. I have learned from this blog that power and accuracy is hard to get in the same gun. I also have 3 other springers and a few multi pumps. I only target shoot at 50 feet in my garage, but if I want to hit the bullseye with only one shot, the first gun I pick up is my Daisy 822, a 90 dollar multi pump. I almost never miss with that rifle. I can pick up a springer and 1/2 the time the first shot will miss the 3/4 inch bullseye. What I am saying is, you may have 2 pretty good guns already, don’t over look what you have now.
Yes I know that I have two good guns, but I got the RWS for my 15th B-day, and the 1377 for this Christmas. My 12-year-old brother has a Benjamin 392 with a Bug-Buster Illuminated scope, a Crosman Raven(with a broken Barrel Assembly which I’m going to fix once Crosman gets some in), a Red Ryder bb gun, and a Crosman 1377(which he also got for Christmas).
We are very content with our guns(’cause we understand that some people would love to even have the Red Ryder), but sometime(either this year or next,) I would like to purchase a rifle with my own money.
I know multi-pumps are very good, I had one before it broke 5 years back. I like long-range bird/target shooting, which is why I’m looking for a powerful and accurate gun(with enough power to do some damage at such ranges).
p.s. Right now I just looking, but I have my eye kinda fixed on the AirForce Condor PCP. Anyone know how accurate those are with a $100 scope? Maybe for my 16 B-day my parents and I can split the cost! 😉
Regarding ammo for your 1377, I’ve been buying some Crosman .177 Pointed Pellets @ Walmart for $2.00!!
You might want to check it out!
The price is the same for the Destroyer pellets too.
I can shoot sub half-inch five-shot groups at 50 yards with my .22 Condor. They are extremely accurate with the right pellets, which are JSB heavy domes.
Condor? That’s a serious, nasty looking killing machine.
You need to have some weight to pump it. A chrono is almost a must have for PCP guns.
Ergonomics make it a little hard to get used to. The AF line is all strange in this respect.
I have something close…a Talon running on a Condor tank. Is one hole at 30yds from a benchrest good enough? Thats with Kodiaks at 950 fps and Predators at 1045fps. The full Condor only has a little longer scope rail and another 6″of barrel and frame. And more speed. You would either need the very heavy Korean pellets or some tuning to get it slowed down to a reasonable level with anything lighter.
HERE WE GO!!! (rubs hands together and smiles) 😉
PERFECT!!! Now, about the price……. 😉
You can get much better prices if you buy used rifles. Watch the classifieds for used deals on Marauders, Talons, Condors, and Discovery rifles. Here are two good places to look.
As an example, here’s a very, very good deal on an upgraded Discovery: http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/thread/1294188641/For+Sale+.22+cal.+Bejamin+Discovery+with+Linthicum+walnut+Stock
They can be a bottomless pit when it comes to cost.
I have a Talon, a Talon SS, a micro tank, three Talon tanks, and a Condor tank. Then there are the 6 barrels. Several scopes. Been through 3 pumps (2 still working).
(and 2 chronographs)
It can run away from you.
Some advice…don’t be a power junky. You don’t need it. It gets hard to live with. Don’t be an acessory junky either. It costs too much.
No special power mods or anything else from professionals. Just a little touch up here and there by me.
You get a PCP, you need a way to fill. Usually you need a scope and rings.
You get anything else, you may or may not have to get a scope and rings.
Package deals on springers (the cheaper ones) you can expect a bad trigger and a poor scope. Expect Chinese lack of consistent quality. Let me rephrase that last part…lack of consistent GOOD quality.
Depending on how far you want to work, open sights might be good enough.
Hate to step on B.B.’s toes, but…
I have handgun hunted. It’s not easy. If you want to kill something, give yourself as much of an edge as possible. I like a rifle and scope, except for very close where a scope causes more trouble than help.
Conor, I did a blog a while ago on how many shots one can get out of a Marauder rifle when filled to only 2,000 psi rather than 3,000. I got44 good shots and my muzzle energy was in the neighborhood of 14 ft. lbs. Here’s the link: /blog/2010/12/adjusting-the-benjamin-marauder-for-low-pressure-operation/
Marauder is easy to keep within a 1″ group at 30 yards plus and I highly recommend it even if you have to go the extra expense for the pump.
Conor, I’ve not tried the Walther but I have had a couple Daisy Powerline 1000’s, which are made by the same company (Hatsan of Turkey). Both Powerlines were extremely accurate, brutal to shoot, of marginal construction and workmanship (in my opinion) and unreliable over the long haul.
I suspect you’d find the Marauder to be the superior gun.
This gun would be on my short list if I was looking for an under lever.
Conor, The questions twotalon asked you are important ones to consider. I’d also look at a Benjamin Discovery and HPA pump package which might fill your needs.
A good choice. Possibly a better choice if the situation is right.
Only a little less range and power. Still adequate(easily) for the tree rats, even with boiler room shots.
More noise, but if it does not matter then it is a moot point.
Didn’t you mean “mute” point. There always is a call to TKO for one of Mike’s excellent muzzle brakes.
Depends of you ‘need’ it or not, then add in the extra cost to see if it is really worth the trouble as opposed to just getting a Marauder in the first place.
I don’t know how loud the FH is, but if it is anything like my 48 then it will draw attention from quite a distance.
“Mute” versus “moot” point – very good. The Discovery is another option worth considering. However, if noise is an issue and it will be if you are more interested in hitting your quarry rather than scaring them away, you will need to purchase a muzzle brake from TKO.com as well as his trigger modification. the trigger mod is only $14 and you can even find similar mods on the internet and buy the materials from the local Ace hardware store for less than 1/2. But this makes a HUGE difference in trigger feel. I highly recommend it.
Thanks everyone for the tips and comments. I’ll look into them.
I have both the Walther Falcon Hunter Ed.(metal spring) and Marauder in .22 cal. The Walther is powerful and accurate, but at a price. The trigger isn’t to good (had to repair it after about 300 shots-works reliably now, but still creepy and with a stiff pull) and because it is a magnum springer it fires quite hard with some side-to-side and twisting torque. You will completely loose your sight picture in the scope unless you are lower than about 5x power. Because it fires so hard you may have scope shift problems. I didn’t, but know that alot of other owners have. This is about a 20-22 foot pound gun. That is ALOT for a springer, especially with the hollow lightweight stock. Be warned.
I remember that with this gun I could hit soda can sized knock down targets at 100 yards about 90% of the time. 30 yard 10 shot groups with the right pellet were about 3/4″. Also know that it is a LARGE, LONG GUN. The length of pull is 14.75″; I’m 5′-10″ and it feels very long when I shoulder it. It isn’t easy to cock, but not really hard either, unless you are trying to empty that 500 ct tin. I should mention that I got my gun about 3 years ago so who knows what the QC is for their units now ( the gun is manufactured by Hatsan of Turkey for Walther).
The Marauder on the other hand is quite a different gun. Yes, it is alot more $ than the Walther but in this case you DO get what you are paying for. The trigger is a very good two stage unit, with a light, predictable 2nd stage release right out of the box. Powerwise I have mine adjusted to almost max. Right at 30 foot-pounds. Accurcy is a little better than the Walther, probably because of the easy firing cycle of the M-rod. Most important of all to me is that the build quality of the Marauder is much better than the Walther. I know that I could pull it out of the bag right now and make a 3/4″ 35 shot group (full tank) at 30 yards. And it will do that with several differnt pellets. Much easier to hunt with also because it is so quiet. Really, a good gun and fun to shoot…. until you have to get out the hand pump. That is the only drawback to the gun(well… all PCP’s). My M-rod and my .177 Air Arms TX 200 HC are my favorite guns to shoot that I own. I don’t shoot the Walther unless I get nostalgic, it was the first air rifle that I had purchased in 30 years (when I was a kid).
Hope this was helpfull. David Holmes
I don’t mean to brag, but I’m 6′ 1”, 155lbs, and fit. I think I should be able to handle it.
Thanks for the info.
Oops, left a reply for you in the wrong place (bot of page) after Kevin’s coment on curio & relic license renewal. David Holmes
BB: I gained a little perspective into how lucky we are to be living in the U.S.A. and being able to shoot air guns as powerful as most of ours are. We had an exchange student from Germany here last year, and he did a bit of target practice with my airguns. One of them was my .22 cal mod 48 Diana , a model he said ,his grandparents had. They were hunters over in Germany ,and shoot in a club with their airguns. He was much suprised by the power of my 48. Personally ,I can’t get my head wrapped around the idea of a 48 that would shoot at the power levels they are allowed to use,Robert.
Robert: Amen to that! There are people in England shooting sub-12 FtLbs guns in .25 caliber. That works out to only about 510 fps for a 20 grain pellet. Definitely a short range situation. I feel blessed to be able to shoot just about any airgun in my back yard without worrying about the power level.
Paul in Liberty County
Our freedoms are being eroded. Unless people push back, hard, America will be Canada south within 12 years. Vote, protest, explain to those ignorant of whats going on, and hold your liberties in a death grip.
Because once their gone, their gone!
Yes. Imagine holding that big 48 only to have less power than a Beeman P1!
I believe you mentioned some time ago that in field target competitions, rifles were recently limited to 12 foot pounds. Is that still part of the rules or was that revoked due to complaints? If so, this rifle would be perfect in the spring piston class.
The international class is limited to 12 foot-pounds. But here in the U.S. people still shoot at 20 foot pounds. However, the new field target riles are starting to influence the better shooters to move to 12 foot pounds.
So, yes, this rifle is perfect for that.
I’ve been hoping you’ll do a post on the RWS Diana 460. I find the claims made in its description a bit hard to believe: “The 460 offers magnum velocites of 1350 fps in .177 and 950 fps in .22.” Is this with super light pellets or nice detonations?
I’d really like to know the accuracy of this rifle compared to other good underlevers and true cocking effort, etc. I fully understand that cocking this rifle is still quite a few cheeseburgers and fries away for you, but maybe you can give Mac a workout…
Here is the report on the .177:
And here is the .22:
Thanks B.B.! This rifle (in .22) seems to be very particular about the pellets it likes. And a one-finger artillery hold doesn’t sound so easy with such a big heavy gun. Also, you didn’t mention any velocity numbers. I still wonder about those. Howbout a followup?
Look at part 1 of the review.
It’s nothing spectacular.
I got rid of the 460s months ago. And I did give the velocities for the .22 in part 1 of that report. You have to read all the parts. I didn’t do a three-parter for the .22 because I had already reported on the general aspects of the gun in the .177 report.
Absolutely right- in my haste I overlooked Part 1. Performance (velocity-wise) seems on par with the RWS 350. I suspect they are very similar powerplants.
What exactly qualifies an airgun as a “magnum”? It isn’t clear, since probably all manufacturers inflate their velocities.
The only clear definition for magnum exists as a bottle of champagne–1.5 liters.
In everything else, it’s relative.
Back in the 1970s, over 800 f.p.s. was considered magnum. Today it’s somewhere above 1,000 f.p.s.
Then it seems to me that some of these manufacturers should provide airguns that can dispense 1.5 liters of champagne, if they want to be more honest. lol
Concerning the 12ftIb limit in the UK.
That is not an absolute.If a guy wants a more powerful air gun he can apply for a firearms licence(FAC) and once received,then go and buy one.
The limit really only applies to what air gun you can buy over the counter without having to provide an FAC.
So the option to own a more powerful air gun is there for us.
Despite how I feel about restrictions etc,it is only fair to let you know these facts.
Thanks to BB’s blog and seeing so many of the fine air guns featured are 12ftIbs or less.
I feel a whole lot better and less hard done by 🙂
I am aware of the FAC, though friends have told me that the process is highly personalized and based on the feelings of the law enforcement official who has to sign off on the permit.
That’s why I am so careful to use the term UK legal limit, meaning the legal limit for something that is still considered an airgun.
Some question about obtaining a FAC, please. What are the requirements for obtaining one? Do they have different levels of FAC’s or are over12ftlb air rifles treated the same as the powder burners?
Point well made Dave. The sub 12 ft lb restriction can be overcome by getting an FAC or Fire Arms Certificate. At least you have an “out” in the UK, I don’t know if other EU countries or Canada have the same?
Still, the “out” is pretty onerous as I understand it. Not only the additional restrictions and requirements that come with the FAC but, won’t the local FEC (Firearms Enquiries Officer) inspect your home for methods and places of storage for the guns, review and have to pass as suitable any hunting or shooting area that you intend to use, etc, etc?
As others have said this morning,we are very lucky to have our 2nd Amendment Rights here in the States and, no restrictions on airguns at the Federal level (sorry FredProNJ)
For us here in Canada anything above 500fps is considered a firearm but if you do have a PAL (possession aquisition licenses or RPAL for restricted PAL). Unless there is a shroud/silencer on the airgun in question which makes it prohibited (so no talonSS, marauder rifle/pistol even the TX200 mkIII and so many other airguns).
Apparently anything looking too much like an firearm (pretty much all action CO2 guns) is gonna be illegal soon, I hope it’s only a rumor.
Stupid airgun laws.
J-F In the 2010 Crosman catalogue, all of the “Canada legal” airsoft guns have clear plastic bodies, where the U.S. counterparts are all black except for the little red plastic muzzle part. The Canada models are all less than 500fps too.
There is plenty of room for you down here J-F in the free republic of Idaho (we even speak a little French up near Couer D’ Alene and the CanAm border, d’accord?)
Stop tempting me… The problem is the wife doesn’t speak a lot of english (yes, no, ski-doo… That’s about it) and she can’t relocate easily and she has a VERY good job right now so unless something goes wrong at her work place there no way we could move away and no offense but if I had/could relocate I’d pick a warmer state I’ve had enough of winter already. We almost moved to south Florida when I finished school, I had a found a good job we could have both lived on until she learned enough english to find her own job I even tried bribing her with a brand new convertible… it didn’t work.
We’ve had clear airsoft guns for many years I was able to get my hands on a few nice pistols before the ban took effect and that’s the only ones I have, I don’t shoot them anymore so they’re collecting dust as selling them is now illegal. I hope the same kind of thing is not going to happen to CO2 pistols but it’s going to be hard with teenagers using them to commit crimes with them more often a few weeks ago some of them started shooting at other cars while one of them was driving. Bringing lots of negative attention to the stuff. I suggested they get shot in the behind with said airgun that should teach them a lesson ;-).
DaveUK and BB,
Sticking with the line of questioning on the 12 ft lb limit, would this Marksman exceed that limit based on the test with the RWS Hobbies or not? While the average was under 12 ft lbs, the pellet that went 888 fps exceeded that limit.
Just curious if it is a case of any single shot could rule it illegal, or if it works off averages.
Alan in MI
It doesn’t work off averages. A single shot can render a gun illegal. However, a lot depends on the reasonableness of the law enforcement parties involved. Like all people, they have their prejudices.
This is some advice from a shooting club in my area on how to get an FAC from the local ‘plod’ (Police).
Hope you find it interesting.
What I have read,the law here will treat an air gun which is over 12ftIb the same as a powder burner.
No sliding scale.
However,in court they may treat the offence of an illegally held air rifle less severely than an illegally held cartridge weapon.
Please click on the link above in the last DaveUK post.
After reading that, you MUST be grateful for and PROTECT your 2nd amendment rights!
Four passport photos, 2 referees, police will see if you are “Suitable” and the FAC is good for a whole 5 years? Wow! Where do I sign up!?
We need to keep the pressure on Chairman Barry and the lefties in D.C. No UK / Euro gun law nuttiness in the USA.
Heads up! On Jan. 6 & 7, PyramydAir will pay for free ground shipping on purchases of $50 or more. You can’t combine this with coupons, and the offer is good only for the lower 48 states.
Crank up the credit card and commence to spending first thing in the morning!
You know, the funny thing is, she brings me the Sunday paper supplements with all the sporting goods ads and asks whether we need another gun or more ammo. So yes, she’s an enabler, but she is very democratic about how she applies it.
I think my way is pretty good 🙂 I MAKE you buy guns, I MAKE you buy ammo, I MAKE you buy reloading supplies…but I don’t make you take any of my requests out of your personal gun budget. Is this a great life or what? 🙂
You’ll never hear me complain!
She’s all mine guys! Back off! 😉
I had a model 60 that shot 920’s with JSB exacts. The gun was tuned and wearing a JM FT stock.
I purchased it used at Roanoke 3 years go and the seller did not know the history. So that’s at least one out there shooting above the 12 ft lb mark.
It was a nice gun but just too long for me to comfortably reach the clocking lever release. Had it been a carbine I would have kept it. Ironically I traded it for one of the longest spring guns out there, a cherry BSF 54 standard.
Thanks for that. I never would have guessed you could get full power out of one of these.
By the way, when the 54 Standard gets to be too cumbersome, we should talk.
I got rid of an S54 Bayern target rifle with a satellite dish for a rear aperture sight several years ago and now I wish I hadn’t.
Another friend used to have the walnut stocked model like your former gun. That satellite dish is quite a thing of beauty itself. That’s the gun that got me started with lusting for the vintage stuff. I never thought I’d be able to find one in my price range in a million years!
The 54 standard I have here Is quite nice. For now it’s stays with me though you may have seen it. Two years ago it was on my friend Bob’s table at Roanoke priced rather high. He put it out with the old “I don’t need/want to sell it but if someone gives me that much I will” attitude.
He really gave me a nice gift on the trade.
It’s an ARH gun (box was included) and about 98% overall condition. I’ve yet to see any version of the 54 in this nice of shape. If I do decide to sell I will drop you a line.
BTW, I still miss that 60 it was a real sweet shooter!
Has anyone renewed their curio & relic license recently? Did you have any problems?
No problem my friend, brag away. The reason I mentioned that is because I remember reading that you were 15. At 6′-1″ you are definitely on the taller side for your age.
Good hunting (pun intended) on finding the right airgun. My advice (from my own personal experience) is to go with the very best that you can afford, even if you have to save up for awhile. Else, you get into the self- blaming of “why didn’t I just bite the bullet and get the better item that I really wanted”. In the end….. it will be worth it. David Holmes
A while ago, I tested some different pellets in my .177 HW77K and I noticed exactly the same thing, lighter pellets seemed to give higher muzzle energies than heavier pellets, RWS Hobby gave the greatest muzzle energy and they were the lightest pellet I tried.
It appeared that (at least for a <12ftlb spring-piston gun) energy is transferred more efficiently from the powerplant to a lighter lead pellet than a heavier one. Any ideas why this might be?
Apparently it relates to the weight of the piston in the gun. In the 1980s and ’90s British experimenters discovered this relationship–that heavier pistons were more efficient with heavier pellets and so forth. Apparently manufacturers use pistons of low to medium wight in their spring guns, so light to medium-weight pellets are the most effective.
You can change the relationship by simply adding weight to the piston, through the use of washers.
Those tinkers! So for example, if a selection of pellets of different weights were tried in a spring gun as before but with a heavier piston would the lightest lead pellets eg Hobby no longer give the highest muzzle energy?
That is correct. I reported on a test of just that in my R1 book.
Hello again BB,
(Will you see this comment? The blog entry and my previous comments are well over two years old!)
I have a modest collection of air rifles and as an airgun enthusiast / afforementioned experimenter type person I’m very interested in reading your R1 book, but I can’t get hold of it. Is it discontinued / out of print indefinitely?
Yes, I see this comment. Why did you post it here? You could have posted to the current blog, where we accept any airguns questions without sticking to the topic of the day.
The R1 book was a financial disaster for me. It took 7 years for me to break even. Yes, everyone is interested in reading it now, because copies sell at over $100, but the moment it becomes affordable again, they will go right back to ignoring it.
This blog has been published continuously since Mark of 2005 and is 100 times larger than the R1 book. Everything I wrote in the book has been published in this blog — much of it several times. It’s all here for free. All you need to do it get on the current page and ask your questions.
Welcome to the blog. Go to the current page and start reading.
You responded to an answer to you that I posted more than half a year ago! I am responding to you within hours. Why are you then asking follow-on questions eight months later?
Please go to the current blog posting and join the main conversation. There are tens of thousand of readers who watch the blog all the time and will help me respond to you.
Thanks for your reply and thankyou for providing such a comprehensive, interesting and informative airgun blog.
Sorry to hear the R1 book was not a great success. I can’t speak on behalf of other enthusiasts but I think it sounds like a very interesting read and I hope I can get my hands on a copy at some point.
I’ll be sure to ask any future questions (on topic or otherwise!) in the comments section of your most recent entry.
The R1 book would definitely be more popular today and probably easier to sell in quantity because of the internet.
Don’t think for one minute that we haven’t thought about republishing it. I’m looked at all possibilities, including print-on-demand via Amazon. A problem we’ve encountered (and I’ve mentioned this before when others have asked) is that the original software I used for page layout of the book isn’t what we currently use. I can buy it, and that’s not actually a big deal. I can also get the text out of the book and redo the layout in the software we currently use.
The REALLY big deal is that we didn’t scan in the photos for the layout. We gave all the images to the printer, who then scanned in the images. They ret’d all the images, but I’d have to scan in all of them.
Lastly, lack of time is an issue for both B.B. and me. If I had more time, would I spend it working on the R1 book or would I sleep? I choose the latter.
Greetings B.B., I have a Gamo Shadow 1000 that I like alot. It does not look like they sell that model anymore. I did see a Do-All Outdoors Accuair Force 1100 that looks identical. Is this the same gun or made by another company? Thx Steve
Steve… I guess you didn’t see the responses to this the other place you posted it…
To rehash – the Do-All is a Gamo knock-off that’s made in Turkey. It’s not made very well… I had one and sent it back to the retailer. There are also Chinese knock-offs of the Gamo… the Stoeger X10 and Crosman Quest (and all its variants) come to mind. My experience with the Crosman guns tells me they aren’t as good as the Gamo’s by any means, but they are a FAR, FAR better product than the Accuair.
You’re right – the older Gamo Shadow with the solid steel barrels have been discontinued, along with its siblings – the 220, 440, and 890. Compared to the rest of the air rifle field I always found them to have nice accuracy, power, weight, and cocking effort for the price. There were down sides to them, certainly – buzzy and twangy when fired, a mediocre trigger, and a fiberoptic sight that was easy to break and faded with use. But overall I always thought it was a very likable and easy-to-shoot gun overall.
IMO much preferable to the current crop of plastic-shrouded Gamo’s, most of which have no open sights.