Umarex Fuel air rifle: Part 5

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

Umarex Fuel air rifle

 

That’s right! The Umarex Fuel carries its own bipod legs tucked against the forearm until you deploy them.

This report covers:

• Scope upgrade
• H&N Baracuda Match pellets
• JSB Exact Heavy pellets
• Air Arms Falcon pellets
• Artillery hold: Better or worse?
• Evaluation

I last looked at the Umarex Fuel air rifle on September 19 — almost 2 months ago. I promised you a Part 5 with an upgraded scope, and today we’ll look at it. I learned an important lesson today about the Fuel that you need to know if you’re considering buying one.

I found H&N Baracuda Match pellets with a head size of 4.50mm to be the best at 25 yards in the last test. I also found some differences when shooting off the built-in bipod, whether it rested on a hard surface or a soft one. I wasn’t sure which one was best, but today I rested the bipod on a soft surface for all bipod shots.

Scope upgrade
I decided to upgrade the scope for this test, so today I installed a UTG 3-9X40 AO scope in the rings that came with the Fuel. There was a shim on the rear ring that I left in place.

Umarex Fuel air rifle scope
The UTG scope fit the Fuel with clearance under the objective bell that this view doesn’t show. Those ridges on the stock ahead of the triggerguard are important. They come into play later!

H&N Baracuda Match pellets
The last pellet I shot was the Baracuda Match, so I sighted in the scope with them and then shot the first group at 25 yards. Sight-in took a lot of shots because I discovered the Fuel is extremely hold-sensitive. It isn’t as bad as it sounds, but I’m getting ahead of myself. I will address that issue and explain it to you at the end of this report. It took 9 shots to sight-in the rifle, which is roughly 3 times the number it usually takes. Again, that was due to hold sensitivity.

Today, I got smaller groups than in the last test. Ten Baracuda Match pellets went into 1.04 inches at 25 yards, which is significantly better than the best previous group of 10 that measured 1.281 inches at the same distance. I didn’t even try a second group of Baracudas because I had other new pellets to try.

Umarex Fuel air rifle Baracuda group
Ten H&N Baracuda Match pellets made this 1.04-inch group at 25 yards. This is better than the best group of Baracudas shot previously.

My thinking was to find the best pellet while shooting off the bipod and then shoot that pellet with the artillery hold. With one pellet down, it was time to move on.

JSB Exact Heavy pellets
Next up was the 10.34-grain JSB Exact Heavy with a 4.52mm head. The first shot went wide to the left, then shot 2 was almost in the center of the bull. When shots 3 and 4 went into the same hole as shot 2, I was going to discard the first shot as a fluke or seasoning the bore or some such thing. So, I shot 11 pellets at this bull and was prepared to take the last 10 as my group. But something that happened later caused me to realize that the first shot does belong to this group. The Fuel is extremely hold-sensitive, and small differences really do matter — as you will soon see. At any rate, there are 10 pellets in 0.826 inches and 11 in 1.196 inches.

Umarex Fuel air rifleJSB heavy group
There are 10 JSB Exact Heavy pellets in the bull in 0.826 inches, but the first shot (the 11th shot of this group) is low and left. Total group is 1.196 inches across. I was going to disregard the first shot until I learned how hold-sensitive the Fuel is.

Air Arms Falcon pellets
The last pellet I tried was Air Arms Falcon dome with a 4.52mm head. Like the JSBs, the first pellet landed high and away from the bull, but the next 7 pellets went to the same place in the center of the bull. I was all ready to create a universe from this limited data, when shots 9 and 10 went high and right, just like the first shot. Boy, was that aggravating! But there was no denying it — there are 7 pellets in a small 0.594 inch group, and 3 other shots that open the group to 1.348 inches.

Umarex Fuel air rifle Falcon bipod
The Falcon pellets went just like the JSBs. First shot was high and right, then the next 7 in the center of the bull, and shots 9 and 10 were wide again. Group measures 1.384 inches, with 7 in 0.594 inches.

Artillery hold: Better or worse?
I wasn’t sure what to make of the groups shot off the bipod, but I switched to the artillery hold next. And I shot and shot and shot! I would put 2 pellets into the same hole then the third would land 2 inches away. I tried every variation of the artillery hold I could think of, and then it hit me. Back in the early 1990s, I wrote an article for the Beeman catalog that was never printed. It was about discovering what I later called the artillery hold. Beeman was recommending a firm hold on air rifles, and I had found just the opposite. Could the reverse also be true?

Could it be that some guns do need to be held firm for accuracy? I discovered while testing the Browning 800 pistol that it needed to be held tight, so I decided to try it with the Fuel. Lo and behold — every shot went to the same place!

So, the rifle is sensitive to hold, but the hold isn’t that difficult to do. In fact, you’ll find it more natural than the artillery hold. Simply grasp the stock with your off hand so your fingers fit between the vertical ridges just in front of the triggerguard. Hold the rifle firm but not tight with that hand. Don’t squeeze. Pull the butt into your shoulder normally, but not overly tight.

I did this and put the first 6 shots into 0.211 inches — AT 25 YARDS! Shot 7 opened the group to 0.388 inches, and shots 8, 9 and 10 opened it up to 1.721 inches. It was obvious at this point that I was tiring out. But I had also just discovered how to hold the Fuel for great groups! And I’d discovered that the Falcon is at least one pellet the rifle likes very much!

Umarex Fuel air rifle Falcon handheld
Handheld with a firm grip on the forearm, the first 6 shots went into 0.211 inches. Then, as I tired, the shots started opening up. I numbered them as they occurred. Total group size is 1.721 inches at 25 yards.

Evaluation
The Fuel has revealed itself to me in today’s test. It’s a fussy rifle that wants to be handheld, although the bipod groups aren’t that bad. It cocks easily for a rifle that has a gas spring, and the shooting cycle is very smooth. The trigger is good, though not world-class. The scope that comes with the rifle isn’t the best, but the rifle is a real value. You can always add a better scope like I did.

I’ve been looking for a good $150 gas-piston air rifle and this may be it. I’m now going to take the rifle to the 50-yard range to see what it can do, but at this point I have no problem recommending the Umarex Fuel as a good buy! Be sure to read all the past parts of this report, and I think you’ll agree that this one is special.

150 thoughts on “Umarex Fuel air rifle: Part 5


  1. B.B,
    Congratulations on getting it to group!I’ll be experimenting with a little different hold on the Regal I now have, I’m kinda wondering if the speed of these gas spring rifles is partially negating the necessity of the artillery hold. I’ve been liking this gun(except that flimsy looking bipod and all the plastic & fiber optic accoutrement) It seems like it’s gonna be somewhat of a long range sniping rifle, just like it looks! Some kids are gonna be very lucky to get this under their trees so long as they don’t get bitten by the beartrap or shoot their eye out.
    Sorry, had to throw that last one in there.

    Reb


  2. This is an off-topic comment, and I apologize for that. If there is a better protocol for moving it to a more appropriate place, I’m happy to do that. 🙂

    I had a real happy moment this week, when a new AirForce TalonP, Hill pump, and Leapers 2-7x “scout scope” arrived at my door. I got a chance to go through all the materials that AirForce includes (including the DVD, which to my pleasant surprise featured B.B. going through many of the particulars), and today I bolted it all together, pumped it up and fired my first few shots.

    I’d simply say “awesome”, but that would be shortselling the experience!

    I have a few questions that I’d like to pose to B.B. and/or this group, that I would love to get sorted out right away. In general I can say with some confidence that I am thoroughly grateful to have had this blog as a resource, as the amount of “new” is still pretty overwhelming, even though I’ve been following and learning for over two years now. And so forgive me if some of this is really basic “PCP 101” stuff, but 1) I am indeed new, and 2) I want to get it right.

    The questions I’d really like to sort out right away are as follows:

    1. How difficult should it be to rotate the power wheel? That sucker seems really stiff, and my fingers are pretty strong. (The grooving on the wheel is shallow enough that I’d assume the expectation is that it shouldn’t be too difficult to rotate.)

    2. What is the preferred approach for zeroing something like the TalonP? I suspect I’m about to learn a great deal about exact trajectories as I send lead down range, but is there a rule-of-thumb that I can lean on? (For example, for firearm rifles with trajectories such as the .308 and .30-06, zeroing at 25 yards usually results in about 2″ high at 100 and dead on at 200 again, and is a good baseline rule for a “maximum point blank range” that most people can get hits with out to 250 yards with. Is there anything similar for something like the TalonP?)

    3. Can the gun be dry-fired without the tank attached? (I’ve not attempted to do this yet–figured I’d ask first.)

    4. What is the preferred way to store this gun safely to prevent dust in the action? One of the things that hadn’t occurred to me until I actually had the gun in my hands (there have been several of those moments thus far) is that with the power source onboard, closing the bolt on a charged air cylinder kinda constitutes a weird sort of “half-loaded” condition. Sure, it’s missing the pellet, but the risk of air discharge is still there, and if I close the bolt to keep dust or grit out of the action, it’s just safety-and-trigger away from a blast. On the other hand, if I remove the air tank entirely it certainly solves that problem, but then the bolt face and underlying chamber is uncovered. Do you see my conundrum? In the field I don’t mind carrying “cocked-locked-charged-and-unloaded” this way, but I’d like something better for storage in the house, if that’s possible. What do most AirForce users do?

    Those are, I think, the most critical ones. I’m sure there will be plenty of others, but I’ll start here. Thanks for whatever insight you might be able to share!


    • And by the way, it looks like my pencil work on the mounting of the scout scope paid off. (Mounted on a pair of the AirForce 11mm-to-Weaver adapters forward of the frame handle/bridge, the scope’s ocular bell is absolutely as low as it could possibly be over the bridge–including the flip-up lens cap–but it fits, using the rings supplied with the glass.) Initial impressions are very favorable; the balance is a little odd, with all that weight up front like that–OMG does that glass seem huge and heavy to me–but with the LOP adjusted to 12″, this is a 26″ carbine that is well-suited to both precision shots and snapshots, and that is exactly what I was going for with this project.

      And despite all the weight (seriously…the Leupold 2.5x scout scope that I know so well is literally one-third the weight), I think I’m going to like this Leapers unit. Optical quality does indeed seem very good, and it does feel solid. Light gathering, with a 44mm objective and 30mm tube, is indeed luxurious. Eye relief as mounted seems good at both ends of the magnification range. And I intend to spend a little time side-by-side with a Leupold, to see how the expanded field of view “feels” in actual practice.

      Now, if I can just figure out the right way to get a middle stud for a Ching Sling mounted, ideally about half way between the front of the trigger guard and the back of the rubberized fore-end, I’ll have a Frankenstein monster that is nearly feature-complete for my (admittedly odd) preferences.




          • I was trying to find a link to share, if I could find what you’re looking for but my computer kept crashin’ I believe B.B.’s done most of what’s out there on ’em. Have you checked for any groups or Talon forums?





              • No skin off my nose! I actually enjoy being useful when able. Wish I coulda been more help but I’ve yet to meet an Air Force gun in person. I’d like to congratulate you on your new gun and your choice of your fine,powerful and accurate long rang sniper( short range too but from what I understand the difference between the 2 is substantial when set for one or the other, due to correlation of bore vsLOS). I consider the AirForce line to be the modern equivalent of the “Famous Lewis & Clark air rifle” in other words, “Girardoni”.
                Lotta work for you to digest there!
                Just waiting to see what they can come up with next. I’d like to see them compete for a spot next to the new up and coming big bore Hatsan line and hopefully see Crosman go at it with ’em at the same time.That should make for some interesting results!

                Reb


                • Yeah, I’m actually kinda excited to use the new TalonP as my way of learning about how to live with the “sight offset” problem of a line of sight high above the bore. Most of my firearms are “scout style”, which conceptually mounts the glass as low as possible to the bore to avoid the problem as much as you can. (They range from just under 2.5″ on my AR to just a hair over 1.5″ on the Steyr Scout.)

                  Also, the Leapers glass should help me to learn the mil-dot system, which I’ve never really needed before but probably should learn. (Thus far I’ve done everything I needed to do by intimately understanding the plex reticle on the Leupold 2.5x glass, and limiting myself to Townsend Whelen’s “sporting limit” on engaging unwounded game animals. With the cartridges I use, zeroing for the load’s “maximum point-blank range” works beautifully, and unless I’m way out at the extent of my limits, I essentially ignore trajectory.) I do look forward to seeing what I find!


      • Kevin,

        Reb has pointed you to the forum for those who are obsessed with AirForce air rifles. 🙂 The wealth of information there about these things exceeds what AirForce knows. I do warn you though, there is no adult supervision on that forum. On occasion the language and even the topics can get out of hand and is not suitable for children.

        What you will soon discover is that AirForce and the members of that forum have an ongoing love-hate relationship. That forum came to be right after the Talon hit the market. Although it is officially denied, AirForce pays real close attention to what is going on with that forum. It seems that every new idea that AirForce has brought out, including your Talon P, was made by someone on that forum two years previously.

        As to some of your questions, the power wheel should not be too easy to turn as there is spring tension against it, however from your description you seem to have an issue that leaves you with two choices. You can take it apart and investigate or you can send it back to AirForce. I personally would tear it apart, but I do not know how mechanically inclined you are. There is info on the Talon Airgun Forum that can walk you through just about anything you will want to do with that thing.

        You can dry fire it, but do not do such without the tank installed. Your breech block will likely end up where your tank should be and possibly damage it. There are fixes to the trigger/safety assembly that will allow you to uncock it and store it with the breech closed.

        BB has written several extensive reviews about your new toy and the rest of the AirForce stable. I would recommend you start doing a lot of reading.

        When you are ready for some upgrades, let me know. There are some that AirForce has not done yet that are really worth doing. In the Talon Airgun Forum world, I am ON_THE_EDGE. I don’t hang out there all the time, but I am here every day.


        • I was trying to keep it on this blog for the adolescent properties found throughout the other Airgun sites but my computer went into full blown “pitch a fit mode” and I kept recalling using that one to expand my knowledge many times.


          • “adolescent properties”

            Understood, and agreed. Over the last two years of following here, I have combed externally all that I could stomach in order to gain what Airsoft knowledge I now have, and let’s just say that there is a whole lot more out there than I’ve seen. 🙂

            In general, what I have found is this: if B.B. or one of his guests has reported on something, it’s almost automatically the best-written, well-thought-out, useful information I have seen. I find this true even when I personally have completely different intentions or interests than B.B. does; when information is good information, I can simply apply it to myself with whatever grains of salt I need.

            It really is hard to overstate the value of the job that B.B., Edith, the guests, and the bulk of the “commentariat” do here. Hopefully Pyramyd Air recognizes the sort of pattern that this results in, at least for me: if I am looking for something and PA has it, my business goes to them first. It’s not that this is a quid pro quo relationship; instead I view it as a way for me to say thanks.


        • Ridgerunner,
          Thanks for giving Kevin some real information there I felt like I was just flyin’ by wire but actually danglin’ by a thread, with the crashin’ thing goin’ on.


        • Thanks RidgeRunner. Points taken about the forum caveat–and it actually wouldn’t be surprising at all if that quasi-acknowledged relationship is exactly as you describe it. I’ve seen similar things in a variety of places, and kudos to AirForce for perhaps recognizing the value of unofficial content.

          I have certainly combed, in detail, over B.B.’s six-part series on the TalonP in particular, but–duh–I hadn’t thought to comb through all the other AF guns’ articles. Thank you for that reminder; I will indeed do that.

          It sounds then like there isn’t a specific and obvious feature that I’m missing with the power wheel, like a set-screw or something. I’ll comb the forum for any specifics on disassembly and expectations, and maybe for something like “okay, once it’s apart, what IS the remedy if it’s stiff?”

          And as far as upgrades go, sure, I may get there, but I’m new in general to so many parts of this that I figure I owe the gun at least a year’s worth of learning its out-of-box secrets first. I certainly get the impression that I’ve got a lot of wiggle room for pellet selection/power levels that would be “accurate enough” for hunting showshoe hares, and can use one or several good “knowns” while I tinker at the margins with non-living targets. 🙂

          Finally, thank you very kindly for the advice on dry-fire. I wondered precisely about that, and yours is a very concrete answer that gives me what I really need to know!


          • I’m sure that power wheel is intended to be stiff enough to stay put when that thing goes off, with all that power, it may be necessary but I’d see what B.B. thinks before formulating a plan.


      • A note in trajectory, the 25 carries more momentum then a 22 and so retains speed better which makes, at the high velocity of the talon, the trajectory almost close to a 177, so I’ve read, and I noticed it with the np 22 had a hair more drop then the 95 25 Im now shooting. That’s at ranges to about 35-40 yards.




          • RDNA
            But you know you really have to go out and shoot your gun and see if your holds match up to what Chairgun says. Chairgun is a good starting point but not 100% true to the real world.


            • Got about 10-12 rounds off now! looks like I’m within 3/8″ but I’m shakin’ like a leaf from the cold so that may be inaccurate but that’s how far my last adjustment shot landed from my poa. I’ll stop there(like B.B. and see what 10 looks like next, 5 at a time(unless I go Rogue 🙂 !


            • Didn’t think I stood much of a chance of getting a reading with it being so overcast but tried it before it got too dark; JSB10.34@789, 786, 793,&785fps. 14 fpe! Perfect for my needs. Next’ll be 5 and 10 shot groups with those same JSB’s.
              I did notice one that looked a little ragged in the skirt but it’s gone now 🙂

              Reb


            • Just came back from checking what I thought was a 6 shot group I recall the 1st landing 3/8″ low from my 1/4″ bull. the trigger does seem to be the cause of many pulled shots. But they’re all hitting the same place! When I got there I was greeted with an almost perfect 1″square group of 6 pellet that consisted of 2 3 shot groups, all touching and looking just like a 6 in dominoes the bull being 1″ to the left but I also had one of those JSB’s flip outta the breech when I reopened it not remembering it was already loaded so they’re either too small or need deeper seating than I’m getting with my thumb. Point taken! Off to round 3!

              Reb



                • Trying to, it’s a good thing I didn’t turn it very hard clockwise. It’s mounted in plastic that was flexing pretty good just checking travel. I had also noticed the slightest creak while cocking and came up with only one fore-stock washer but the parts bin’s got that fixed now I think I’ll save my Loctite til I get it “there”, then pull ’em all at once and make sure they’re all well dosed. Looking good so far! but 2 disasters averted so far. Did ya catch the 1″ group?


            • After making sure? the safety wasn’t affecting trigger pull I decide to attempt adjustment of the screw behind it. It’s loose, apparently not in contact with the sear at all. I guess it’s time to pull the stock so I can get a good look at what’s going on and formulate a plan from those findings.


              • Reb
                The screw behind the trigger is the first stage adjustment and if it is loose it is definitely not contacting the sear. To shorten the first stage turn the screw clockwise in the tightening direction and if you tighten it all the way down it will eliminate the first stage and give you a much crisper trigger, but if you remove the extra spring on the trigger itself like I said it will make the trigger much easier to pull by a couple pounds and likely give you better accuracy by not affecting the hold as much when firing.

                It sounds like you have got a good start on getting the hold right, but the FPS seem just a little low as compared to my venom with 10.5 CPs it will shoot 840 FPS. It still may be getting broken in or the difference could be you are closer to sea level than me as I am at 615 feet above sea level according to my iPhone app.

                BD


                • I think whoever put this one together at the factory forgot to get that spring on the other side of it’s compressor that’s what the screw uses to compress it.
                  I have no idea how many GF1 put through this thing but I’m still below 50 so it should still be breaking in but I’m really not too concerned about it not shooting 1000fps and flirting with the transonic region so long as it’ll hit ’em hard so I can bag ’em. I know I can always put a couple drops of pellgun oil in and get that 😉 But I would like to see any decent schematics of the trigger assembly you or anyone else may have.


                  • Reb
                    If you look in at the screw for trigger adjustment you can see the end of the spring as it is just about in the way of the screw and you have to use the screwdriver tip to push it aside to turn the screw, that is the screw you need to remove to make the trigger lighter in the pull.

                    I only said the your is shooting the 10.3 about 50 fps slower than my venom and with the CP lites 7.9s it shoots at 940 fps so mine has never shot 1000 fps as I will not use the PBAS ultra light pellets in my spring guns.

                    The schematic on the crosman site does not break down the trigger assy, but the gamo whisper on this site I am going to give you the link to does and it is the same trigger that is in the crosman. The pin and spring I am talking about you rfemoving to make the trigger pull easier is # 14120-spring and # 14090 pin and to get the trigger out to remove the pin and spting you need to remove # 09090 c-clip and the # 33110 pin to remove the trigger itself and that is all that needs to come ouit to remove the pin and spring. you can see the screw and its plastic part that it threads into to adjust the sear also in this schematic and it is exactly the same as the crosman trigger assy so I hope this helps you understand how it all fits .

                    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztn98ugjgvxirnx/Gamo_Whisper.pdf

                    BD



                    • buldawg
                      I was hoping Reb had better luck than I did with that dang trigger. It definitely needs improvement. Nothing like that Mrod trigger is it.



                    • Thanks for the explanation and the link! I’ll be checking it out as soon as I get caught up on what happened overnight.
                      Did ya hear the news?
                      I’ve been approved!
                      I posted it earlier but have noticed no responses in my E-mails so I don’t think it actually posted but I’m pretty busy right now taking care of 6 mos worth of stuff that’s been neglected plus waiting by the phone to see how much back-pay I’ll be receiving in the next week or so and trying to get back on this Regal.
                      6 months X$720= over $4000
                      About half of that goes to back rent but I should be able to finagle myself some to work with.
                      Finally! A light at the end o’ the tunnel. Just hopin’ it ain’t a train!

                      Reb


                    • Looks like the GRTlll would be the one now I’m off to check out the rest of what’s been shared.
                      You too Gunfun, I see that one below and just got done with it too
                      Thanks!


                  • Reb
                    Never even took the stock off the gun. According to the GRTlll website there are two possibility’s of trigger types that could be in the gun and two types of 2 stage triggers available that could fit. Go to their website and it shows the different triggers.

                    And I would say i should of had I’m thinking about 150 so pellets through it. So yes still breaking in I’m sure.


                    • Rb and Gunfun
                      That Regal takes the GRTIII trigger as it is exactly the same as my venom and titan gp as well as most gamos so I am positive the it is the GRTIII but before reb spends 33 buck on the CDT trigger he needs to remove the one spring and try the bearing trick as the spring cost nothing and can be put back in and the bearing is only a couple bucks and can be taken back out also.

                      I have put the GRTIII trigger in one of my guns and my titan came with one in it and I think and like the bearing better than the GRTIII triggers as it is a short first stage and then just a light and crisp firing and that is with the 2.5mm by 5mm by 8mm . I am probably going to put the 9mm OD bearing in my FT gun as it gives the trigger a no first stage and just about a 1 pound pull for firing , the only draw back is the safety does not work but it will not fire by knocking it or smacking the stock .

                      I am going to machine out one of my GRTIII trigger so I can put the bearing in it and see if the safety will work with the 9mm bearing as the GRTIII trigger is a tighter fit in the gun and the safety lever does not have as much movement with the GRTIII trigger as it does with the stock trigger. So I will see if there is a difference.

                      Then when RDNA send me the gas spring from the 95 he got form GF1 I am going to see if it will fit in my crosman clone coil spring gun and pressurize it to 100 BAR to hopefully give me around 750 to 800 fps with 10.3 JSB pellets and a lighter and smoother firing cycle with less pressure in the gas spring.

                      BD


                    • Gunfun
                      No its not anywhere close to a Mrod trigger and that is what does not make sense as crosman certainly knows how to make a good trigger so I don’t know why they cannot spend just a little more on the triggers in the spring guns to make them better than they are as it cannot be that much more costly to do so.

                      BD


                    • Gunfun
                      I thimk they could easily make a better trigger for the springer’s but they are just Chinese imports for crosman so they really are not that concerned about it if you ask me.

                      BD


                    • It’s definitely still deiseling! I don’t understand why the manufactures state 100 rounds for break-in when they know it’s probably closer to 1000. I guess because if people understood it would take that many, Many of them wouldn’t make the purchase.


                    • Out of reply indents…

                      No its not anywhere close to a Mrod trigger and that is what does not make sense as crosman certainly knows how to make a good trigger so I don’t know why they cannot spend just a little more on the triggers in the spring guns to make them better than they are as it cannot be that much more costly to do so.

                      Don’t be so sure. On a PCP/CO2, the trigger/sear only has to move against the striker spring, and that only has to open a valve.

                      A spring gun has the full force of the piston spring against the trigger/sear. Needs larger contact area — meaning higher friction when pulling the trigger, etc.


                  • Reb
                    That is great news and it is about time as you have had a very hard go of it and should have had it long ago. I am very glad fro you and hope it all goes well from here on out.

                    I am still waiting to either get my letter of approval or a date for a hearing as I got the bar code back in October that said they needed more info to determine if I could be approved or required a hearing with a judge. So I am hoping to hear something by the end of the year.

                    If you need any help on the trigger email or call me as you have my numbers now so don’t hesitate.

                    BD



          • Thanks for the tidbit! I had to look up “chairgun” but now I think I’m glad I did. I have long used the JBM Ballistics online calculators for my basic comparisons for firearms, and will be happy to try something similar that specializes in pellets. (With all due grains of salt taken, of course–ballistics tools set an expectation that I want to confirm or disprove. 🙂 )


  3. From my personaly experience, I developed the opinion that a bipod does not work well with a springer / gas spring rifle. The vibrations during the shot move through the legs and get the rifle off center.


    • Never tried it but it would seem t have a tendency to “whip”the end of the barrel but this pivot setup may be more than it appears to be, maybe Umarex really built this gun around the stock/ bipod and did their homework. Something’s working for it!


    • That’s what I was going to say in regards to giving it a little hug ti keep it on point, the heavy reverse piston. It might be smooth but the front and back is full magnum shuffle.


  4. B.B.,
    I think it’s great that you are tracking pellet head sizes now with your groups. As for the barracuda match pellets, my chrony and accuracy testing have found the best sizes to be 4.53mm for .177 cal and 5.53mm in .22 cal. The next time you restock BCM’s, consider trying those sizes.


  5. Kevin, If you are a hunter as I,you will become a addict to this gun more then likely.I hunt with mine every day twice a day rain ,shine or what ever mother nature throws at me.Had for about two years now.There is nothing walking out there in the woods that will EXCAPE a well aimed pellet from the TalonP.Mine liked the Baracudas the best then J
    SB.Then I went and put on a 24” barrel.Now you ain’t seen nothing yet in power until you do that! I shoot tree rats at 200 feet in the head with ease.If you are a hunter you will need shooting sticks to do this.I never hunt without them!.Now if you are a paper puncher and a hand pumper,well I fell for ya man because this ain’t no target gun to much work.Get a tank for that.Six or seven got shots is the max but that is plenty if you only hunt. I have the old style with the wire safety.That is my only complaint is that the safety sounds like a pencil breaking when pushed. Is the new one quite? As you know its loud! Someday I may get the Condor SS 25 cal.for the stealth but foot pounds would be lost and a trade off in power but quite would almost be worth it. Anyway I can’t see another airgun for awhile because this gun so much just fills the bill for me and I’m very happy with it and hope you the same! Good day.


    • Most people take out the old safety. On the older ones, they were prone to discharge when the safety was released. Most of the guys who remove the safety will uncock it and recock it when they are ready to shoot.


    • Thanks for the thoughts Steve. I do indeed envision mostly hunting, and we’ll see how long I wind up going before acquiring tanks and/or a compressor. (I got what I could afford now, and am already building a list of “next steps”. Getting fully set up in the world of PCPs does seem to take a certain amount of initial investment.) Let’s just say that I hope to find that I hunt so much that I “need” those things!

      Down the road I also intend to add an EscapeSS to my stable; it is longer than the TalonP (albeit not a lot), but theoretically should produce the same power level with sound suppression. In theory, when that happens I will transfer the Leapers glass to the EscapeSS, and reconfigure the TalonP with a compact dot sight; the former will then become the primary hunter, and the latter the super-compact carbine, and at least theoretically I can share air tanks and barrels between the two…


      • Kevin,one last thing I forgot. You will find that more then likely that the TalonP only likes 2000 thru 2500 psi. and nothing above that.With mine if over 2500 psi. It would open up on paper.Also it did not like those Eunjin 43 grns.They would be OK if one was hunting ground hogs and chest shots but they would not do one inch at 150 yards as the 31 grn. baracudas or 25 grn. JSBs.I believe I sighted mine in at 60 feet and that I think would pass the second line of sight around 150 feet if I remember correct. Again I ask you is the safety quite or is it still loud ?


        • You know, it is entirely this blog’s influence that would have me prepared to expect such a phenomenon in the first place (that the optimum fill pressure may not be “max”), and I am going to be paying very close attention to shot string data to try and learn what this gun’s power curve actually is.

          I did get some of the Eun Jin pellets, both the 43gr pointed and the 36gr domes, to try out, but I’ve heard more than one person now say that they’re not always good performers in this gun. I do appreciate the intel, and if it is the case that my gun prefers something different, I will be more than happy to say that I know for sure. 🙂

          You’re right: I did not answer the safety question. Sorry about that; I’ll take a stab, but I don’t know what “quiet” means to you, nor do I know what the old-style safety was like for a comparison–so please take my opinion with a grain of salt.

          I find the safety to be neither “loud” nor “quiet”, considering it seems to be an all-metal design. It is certainly quieter than my M1 (and easier to actuate, while still being very positive), quieter than my (milspec) AR, and quieter than snapping my 1911 “on”. On the flip side, It’s louder than my Steyr Scout, Ithaca M37, and snapping my 1911 “off”.

          Now…all that is presuming that you use the safety canonically. But because of the design of the tab, you can pinch the entire tab between thumb and forefinger, and eeease it on forward under complete control; after a moment or two of practice I found that I could make it essentially noiseless. (With careful attention to the Four Rules, this practice should be no less safe than the canonical operation, and may make a big difference to a hunter.)

          Once I hunt with it, I’ll be able to assess better whether it’s “too loud” or not. But I’m happy you asked this question, because now I’ve learned something about the gun I didn’t know before. Thanks!


  6. Is there anything in the construction of this rifle why it should not require using the artillery hold? I have only read the archives including comments up to February 2009 and I think this is not the first time you have encountered a rifle that did not want to be held and shot using the artillery hold.


    • Siraniko,

      I think it comes down to vibration patterns. While the Fuel is very sensitive to the hold, it likes a different kind of hold than I would do with the artillery hold. It has a very blocky synthetic stock that may account for it. But why this one and not another? I have no idea.

      B.B.


  7. Wondering about hold sensitive airguns.

    I understand that they require one to really focus, concentrate & that that MIGHT pay off in shooting other guns.

    I’m wondering whether hold sensitive airguns really help one shoot better generally, or whether learning to shoot a hold sensitive airgun really helps one shoot that gun (or one with the same sensitivities), without so much payoff when shooting other guns.

    Thanks,

    Jim in AR


    • Jim,

      Generally speaking, learning to apply the artillery hold helps improve your marksmanship across the board. What it is, among other things, is a rote application of follow-through. And we can all use more of that.

      Yes, there are guns that require such specialized holds that they don’t help you with anything beyond themselves. Balancing a rifle on the back of one or two fingers is one example I can think of.

      But in general, learning the artillery hold helps you with all your shooting.

      B.B.


      • +1 on the idea of follow-through; really, on the idea of paying attention to your technique regardless of what it is. It’s the deliberate application of craft to whatever you’re doing–in this case, holding a rifle during its firing cycle.

        Jim, consider the example in the firearms world of the then-revolutionary Browning “BOSS” system. This was (to my knowledge) the first commercial attempt to address the issue of “barrel whip” in a rifled arm. It’s actually a very simple system–a means of very finely user-adjusting the distribution of mass out toward the muzzle–but what it signalled to me was an acknowledgement that even two rifles of the same make and model could be “tuned” in absolutely tiny increments, to see visible results. You just didn’t have to pay a gunsmith to tune your rifle any longer–you could do it yourself.

        My accuracy needs never were fine enough for me to consider those things–maybe I’m just not that good a marksman, or maybe I got lucky and always got “as accurate as I am” rifles when I went to buy for myself. But some guys swore by the BOSS, and I’ve got no doubt that they did find a sweet spot that gave them quantifiable results. Tuning may be a bit of a black art since there are so many contributing variables, but whether you tune the rifle or tune the hold, once you find the right combination it sure seems to work! 🙂


        • I have a BOSS equipped rifle, but haven’t fired it enough (especially with an intended primary load) to bother adjusting it from an approximate point.

          I used a box of 7.62NATO 147gr ball, and would likely need to tweak it for 150gr .308Win soft point.

          I was also running out time at the range — finished just before they started closing down. 50 yards, but I could do in a fox squirrel with it (was the most accurate gun I was sighting in all day: four airguns and two powder)


          • BW
            I understand that the trigger sear on a spring gun is holding a lot more tension and pressure than one in a PCP/CO2, but how does other companies like FWB, Weirrauch, RWS and many others that make spring guns also have triggers that are as light and as smooth as a PCP/CO2 guns are.

            I have shot several of those that I have listed and the triggers were as good if not better than most PCP/CO2 guns triggers seem to be.

            I do understand that it would raise the cost of the guns to some extent but I think most people will gladly pay a little more to get a decent trigger from the start.

            BD


            • Probably patented designs that other companies can’t use…

              Completely different angles on the leverage points (consider, the triggers on my two spring guns don’t move “back” when pulled — they really move “up” into the receiver; and those are the Gamo with GRTIII, and m54 with T01)

              It would likely take a major redesign (and be incompatible with current production) of the trigger mechanism AND the sear/piston lock-up in order to get a trigger with a pivot point above the trigger blade and one’s finger. When you’ve managed that redesign, you now have to 1) ensure it doesn’t fall afoul of patents, maybe 2) patent the new one, 3) prototype and test it for reliability and lifespan…

              Then decide how much of the production line can be dedicated to this new action vs the one that you’ve got parts stockpiled for decades…


              • BW
                I understand about the patent design and that the triggers do move up in the gamo and crosmans designs as there is no real difference between the triggers between the brands as far as I can see.

                I have not had any of my crosman/benjis apart other than trigger out to put in a GRTIII that I have not been able to get adjusted to my liking as of yet and actually prefer the RC bearing mod to the GRTIII triggers, but I am getting ready to take my firepower crosman clone apart to fit a Hatsan gas piston in place of the coil spring that is in it so I will have a much better understanding of exactly how the sear and catch on the piston interact with each other and some polishing will probably yield some significant improvements .

                I still think that these guns could benefit from some better engineering on the trigger with out any patent infringements or significant cost increases as there is always more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. I will know more when I get my one apart and yes I know it is cheaper to use up old inventory before changing things but these guns have been in production for so long that it just seems that it is time for some improvements to occur by now.

                Technology is ever changing so it only seem relevant for the triggers to evolve some over the course of time as well.

                BD


                • I’t is not about patents. But if you want to go from a mediocre to a FWB 300 – style trigger in mass production, you have to go all the way from adding complex shaped parts to surface treating to tightening tolerances. Most match triggers are rather fragile as well.

                  That being said, I think a lot can be done with proper engineering as well. Some rifles out there have triggers that make me scratch the head and ask what the designers smoked while standing at the drawing board.


                  • BW
                    I understand all that you are saying and the point you are making, but as you said with that being said their are engineers that just don’t seem to really know how to improve on an existing design to make small tweaks that can or should make significant gains.

                    I know as I worked with some very excellent engineers at Harley and then some that you wonder how they even got the piece of paper that said they had passed and earned the title of engineer, I think those were the one that were smoking the wrong stuff at the classroom breaks.

                    I just feel with the amount of time and numbers of guns that have been made with the same trigger design as most all Gamos and Crosman Break barrels that they could have made some improvements in the last ten years they have been produced.

                    BD


    • Id think after working hard (past the artillery hold) to get a gun shooting would make picking up any easy shooting gun a treat. First try artillery hold works and your got good groups. After a good number of tough hold sensitive guns you can kinda tell how other hold sensitive guns want to be held.. (provocative, ay?) Lol


  8. BB,

    you just opened up a new testing protocol, not only for yourself but for me and everyone else on this blog as well. Now if we must shoot all our spring piston rifles with a firm hold in addition to the artillery hold to see if accuracy improves! Well, I realized the other evening that all my notes on my RWS 350 were destroyed in the great flood here in NJ back in 2011 (18″ of water in the basement when power failed and the sump pump stopped) so I have to re-shoot it to find it’s favorite pellet, re-chrony it and then I’m going to use a firm hold once I find the best pellet with the artillery hold to see if I can improve upon the accuracy. Thanks for pointing this out to me and, I imagine, everyone else here who is seeking to wring the greatest accuracy out of their rifles.

    Fred DPRoNJ



  9. I thought we got a bonus blog last night. Wasn’t sure which one would be available today so didn’t comment.

    But I’m glad you tried the different holds. I have sure shot some spring/nitro guns that wanted to be held different.

    And if you bring that other blog back its going to be a interesting one. I hope it comes back.


  10. I have been giving a lot of thought to mounting a bipod on a sproinger. Although I do not have any testing to back this up, I strongly suspect that to mount a bipod on a sproinger and be able to use it meaningfully, it will be necessary to mount it at the point of rest you would use with the artillery hold.

    If you were to take two short lengths of picatinny rail and mount them on each side of the stock above where you hold the forearm and attach a two piece bipod like the one offered by Stoeger, I suspect you will achieve much better results than with mounting it forward on the stock.

    Maybe one of you guys with a sproinger that has a plastic stock can give it a try and do a blurb about it.



    • RR
      In the FT matches we shoot in my area the people using spring guns use bipods that are not attached to the guns ( its not legal to be fixed on the gun) and they all place it near the front of the stock area for shooting and as the Fuels built in bipod is close to the front of the stock I don’t think the bipod needs to be at the same place as you would hold it with your hand when using the artillery hold. I am just starting to shoot in the matches and cannot really speak from experience but I have been very observant and most all place the bipod at the front of the stock like the Fuel has it placed.

      BD


  11. Wow, great job, B.B. with patience and out of the box thinking. So, the best thing to do with the Fuel’s integral bipod is to tuck it out of the way. That is impressive shooting.

    Buldawg, you’re right about the work ethic of earlier times. Reading up on the production of the M1 carbine, I see that what they accomplished in terms of standards and productivity was nearly miraculous and all without the aid of modern CNC machining. Apparently, they made up the difference with an industrial workforce of extremely high quality.

    And did you say earlier that your Harley motorcycles can outperform the Japanese racing motorcycles? I thought the Harleys were mostly for name recognition and history.

    Matt61


    • Matt,

      SPOILER ALERT – THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC. Harley’s dirt track bikes (that would be the XR 750) are still a match for the Japanese and Italian (and Triumph – the new models) on the mile tracks. In road racing, Harley’s last attempt was to campaign a bike built by the Roush Racing organization, the VR 1000. This was back in 1995. Their team was run by Steve Schiebe, a former employee of Roush (and perhaps back with them after Harley abandoned the effort). They could never catch up to the Japanese or the Italians in horsepower and the engine had teething problems that, as far as I could determine (I used to write a racing column for a regional motorcycle magazine) were never completely solved. Perhaps the biggest problem was Harley’s refusal to spend the money needed to match the Italians and Japanese and catch up in the horsepower and reliability race – off the track. The effort was abandoned in 2001, I believe with serious infighting constant amongst senior management in PR, engineering and Schiebe’s team. Steve never had enough money to do the job right. As for street bikes, the Japanese actually build their cruisers as knock-offs of Harleys, right down to power output, vibration and the “potato-potato” sound (single crank pin with the two pistons/cylinders firing 315 degrees apart with a 405 degree pause).
      As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,however, I’ve never met anyone with “Honda” tattooed on their bicep. There, I’ll crawl back into my cave now.

      Fred DPRoNJ


      • The guy I traded my KE-100 to offered a ’78 Yamaha SR-500,full tilt boogie style! Mikuni 36mm,10.5 to1 compression(2 parts pump gas,1 part 112 -leaded)and a huge megaphone style Supertrapp with 1.75″ headpipe and would put many 4 cylinder bikes in the dust up to 98 mph as well as knock you in the head with the handlebars and leave you on the side of the road if you got too throttle happy. On my way home one night I let another driver goad me into almost loading it in the back of the guy in front me’s truck.


        • Reb,

          I have a 1978 SR 500 in the garage! I taught my son how to ride on that bike. He’s probably the only one his age that can kick start a 500 thumper. I had great fun teaching him how to start the bike (sitting on a lawn chair with an alcoholic beverage in my hand shouting at him, “kick it like you’re made at it, Nancy”). Now I can’t keep up with him when we go for a ride. Ah, the good ole days.

          Fred DPRoNJ


          • I had a friend that had one when he was growing up.He thought it would kick over like his worn out one.Just about put all 220 pounds of him over the handlebars when he tried to kick it while sitting on it without using the decompression lever. I weighed 120 and it would have me so wore out on cold mornings I’d have to break on occasion but once I got it going the time was easily made up.Cool bikes! If ya can’t kick it ya can’t ride it!
            The House of Wheels here in Brownwood was once owned by a guy who used to race ’em and has 3 setup in their front window in race trim. I’ll see if I can find a decent picture.


          • Reb and FredDPRONJ
            The SR 500 thumper were some very cool bikes that were sleepers is disguise for sure and yes you did have to know how to start them as they were just about the same as an old points system Harley was where you had to, get the piston right at he bottom of the compression stroke and then stand on the kick start lever like you were trying to kick your way to china with one kick.

            I also had a 74 Yamaha SC 500 two stroke dirt bike that I still own that you had to start the same way especially after I disabled the kick start activated compression release because it would get dirt and mud in the linkage and end pup holding it open all the time instead of just when starting. I used to have young kids on 125 want to ride my 500 and I always told them if they could start it they could ride it. Well they all tried to kick it like a 125 and needles to say when they picked themselves up off the ground in front of the front tire after being thrown over the handlebars because it kicked back on their attempt to start it like a 125 and non of them ever got to ride it. you started it just like the SR 500 by getting the piston on the bottom of the compression stroke and put every ounce of your body weight behind that kick and it would fire right up.
            That bike in stock gearing will do 105 mph with 4 gears and do 80 mph wheelies with just a twist of the throttle.

            I am in no shape to even think about riding it anymore but just make myself get rid of it as it was only made a year and a half from the middle of 73 thru 74.

            BD


            • buldawg
              Sounds like the Suzuki TM400 that I had. Not to many people could start that bike.

              Sometimes it probably would of been best if it didn’t start for me. You know that crazy young kid thing was going on when I had it.


              • Gunfun
                I know what you mean and my 500 is most of the reason I am paying for my fun I had when still young and invincible as it never let me forget that it was the boss when I though I could ride it wide open every where.

                BD


                • buldawg
                  Man that thing would beat me up. And the dang thing about it is I knew better.

                  I don’t think the throttle had a inbetween. It was either closed or wide open when I rode it.


                  • Gunfun
                    I know mine did not have any in between or was it my right hand that could not stay in between I can’t remember which it was but it was just like a light switch either on or off.

                    I knew better to but just could not help my self as it was to much fun to do 80 mph wheelies or throw 7 foot high rooster tails for 100 feet behind me and cover my buddies behind me with mud or gravel.

                    BD



                    • Speaking of investments. I may have a proposition for both of you. Watch your e-mails as this unfurls!
                      It ain’t no circa ’89 Microsoft, but just listen to what I have to say when the time comes.

                      Reb


      • Fred DPRONJ
        Yes Harley dirt track bike are still competitive with the jap and British bike in the dirt miles in the XR750 platform that is still basically the same for decades. You are also correct in their attempt at road racing with the VR1000 and it never was competitive with the japs or Italians cue to engine teething problems as tou have stated and they were not willing to spend the necessary money to be competitive. The VR1000 was not entirely abandoned though as you put it because it is what the 2001 model year Vrod and subsequent mode s of that same overhead twin cam vee twin water-cooled bike was based upon and the engines was designed by Porsche in cooperation with Harley to bring it to the street as Harleys first water cooled overhead cam v twin. I know because it was that motorcycle that got me my dream job at the Talladega Test Facility here in Alabama right next to the super speedway. I was hired because non of the current mechanics they had new anything about fuel injections systems and water cooling and in 1998 when they started the on road testing of the development of the Vrod I was a Cadillac master technician, an ASE master technician and was a specialized technician in computer controls and fuel injections system. The Vrod was basically at the stage of fuel injection that GM was at back in 1985 so it was a piece of cake to test and diagnose the simple Alpha N speed density fuel system that the Vrod was using and what made it even easier was all the sensors were Delphi components which is the same sensors that GM used on all their cars so you could take a TPS sensor from a Cadillac and put it on the Vrod and away you go.

        As far as the japs coping the Harleys with their cruiser you are right except for the firing sequence as far as cylinder timing goes as Harley has a patent on the 270/405 degree firing sequence of a 45 degree v twin engine and they can not copy that exact firing order or timing , they can get close but a jap bike will never have the potato potato potato rhythm of a Harley regardless of how the engine is designed.

        BD



          • Gunfun
            They still do and are still very competitive in the pro stock class against japs bikes and the Vrods that by the way share nothing in common with the street legal Vrod that Harley sell to the public. The Vrod that Vance and Hines runs is a pushrod v twin motor that just barely looks like a Vrod motor and the reason they made it a pushrod motor is they get weight and displacement advantages over the inline four of the jap bikes.

            BD


            • buldawg
              I haven’t kept up with the pro stock bikes for a few years now. I didn’t know if they even made the Buell anymore.

              Weren’t they originally designed as a road race bike or maybe I’m thinking something else.


              • Gunfun
                They were originally made by Eric Buell back in 1995 using sportster motors and he was only making a handful a year until Harley bought him out but left him in charge in 1998 and then they started making 4 to 5000 a year and slowly increased production up to about 12000 a year until 2008 when Harley and Eric Buell had a falling out and they did away with the Beull line and Eric had a non compete clause that he had to sign that stated he could not build any bikes for a year. So after the year he started back into the race bike only business and is starting to come back slowly.

                But he took a 60 HP sportster motor and tuned and refined it into a 105 hp street torque monster that would wheelie in 4 and 5 gears very easily and designed the zero torque front brake system by securing the front brake rotor to the outer diameter of the wheel rather than securing it to the hub of the wheel like all other bikes and what that did is remove the flexing and torque that was applied to the hub of the wheel and out thru the spokes to the wheel and finally the tire to the ground. The ZTF front brake as he patented it was very deadly in that if applied to aggressively it would plant you on your face in the asphalt in an instant without warning.

                BD




                  • Gunfun
                    They had a lot of innovative technology that was outside the box thinking like the oil tank was in the swingarm because Harleys are dry sump motors and the frame was the fuel tank so it was all about utilizing every inch of the bike to save weight and reduce the wheel base and size of the bike.

                    BD


          • I test drove a Buell when I was considering something more streetable than my SR-500. It was a 500cc bavarian motor that my bike woulda stomped it’s guts out and walked ’em dry. It handled pretty good but the power was Very anemic! Then one day one of our customers insisted I ride his v-twin. It was too tall for me so I really didn’t wanna but he kept insisting so I gingerly took it around the block, Huge difference! He then proceeded to ride a wheelie through the parking lot and down 183!

            Reb


    • Matt61
      No I stated that my 76 shovelhead would out run any new twin cam Harley on top end as they can stay with me till around 105 to 110 mph when there gearing runs out and my shovel is just starting to come up on the cam and will pull strong till the speedo is buried at 120 and its only at 5300 rpm of a 6000 rpm max rpm so I actually have no idea on how fast it will go but it does pull all the way to 6 grand in fifth gear so a rough estimate would be close to 140 which is faster than any street legal EVO or Twin cammer can even dream of as they are very limited in final gear ratio because of being a belt driven final versus my chain drive that gives me a multitude of gear ratios to choose from and I am actually going to gear it down some so that I can outrun them from a stop as well as top end because I really don’t have a need to do 140 MPH so if I gear it to hit 6 grand at 130 mph it will accelerate faster and therefore leave them from a dead stop as well as top end.

      The bike I said that will outrun new jap bikes is a 77KZ1000 that has been built for drag racing with a slick and wheelie bar and runs consistent 9.5 second quarters. I have put street tires on it and lights back on it to make it street legal here in Alabama as we are not required to have turn signals or run headlights during day time hours and that is the bike that will out run new crotch rockets from stop light to stop light unless they have a lengthened swingarm because without the longer swingarm they fight the bike wanting to wheelie from a stop where my KZ will sit out to the left and burn the tire for about 20 feet and hook up and go so I don’t have to worry about the bike wanting to wheelie or flip over backwards on take off. The KZ1000 was the beginning of the muscle bike craze in America and has set the standard for all the bikes built after it. The new crotch rockets will easily out run me in top end as my KZ only does 150 where they are capable of speeds in the 170 to 186 mph range but I have no real desire to go that fast on two wheel as I used to work for a motorcycle salvage yard and when you see those crotch rockets come in from wrecks in three or four pieces because some young kid went out and bought the newest and fastest bike that just came out and has no real experience in riding a bike capable of running 186mph in less that a half mile things get very hairy real quick when some one pulls out in front of you when running at that speed and the brakes on the new bikes will lock up the front tire at those speeds and once the front tire stops turning you have lost all control of the bike and 99 percent of the time when the tire locks it is to late to regain control at that speed. I have seen way to many heaps of what was an incredible bike torn apart from the inexperience of young riders that have not gained the required respect and self control to know when and where it is safe to go that fast and believe me it is not on public roads. Those same bikes are capable of speeds well in excess of 186 MPH but have been governed to that speed by the European governments back in 2000 when the 1999 Suzuki hayabusa was introduced and set a record of 201 mph off the showroom floor, so the European gov’ts told the Japanese that if they did not limit their bikes to 186 mph they would not be allowed to be sold in Europe and since the majority of their sales are in Europe they cooperated and they were not going to make two different models for sale in Europe and the USA so we got the same speed limit as the European bike got, but it easily overridden with a inline resistor in the speed sensor circuit that cuts the signal to the computer in half so it think the bike moving at half the speed it actually is.

      You hit the nail on the head about the older workforces of years past being very highly skilled in their respective areas of employment and they had a pride in what they did that is just not very common any more so all the high tech equipment in the world is no good if the person operating it does not have the experience or desire to learn and perform the very best that they are capable of doing. It is not all the employees fault though as most employers are not willing to, pay very well or send the employees to the required training to become more experienced at what they do and with no real company incentives to create the desire in the current workforce to do better there is no reason that they should want to do any more than what is necessary to get the paycheck at the end of the week. That is why I believe that the quality is not at the same level today in products that it was 20 to 30 years ago.

      BD


      • My Dad had a couple Z-1’s and claimed the ’77 could do 180 I rode on the back at 120 for about 1 hour once and had no doubt after that. My CB-650c was pegged(on the speedo) at 85 but kept pulling for a while, once I figured out the pulser modulator clearance. It would then go sideways at 60mph in 3rd but I still want that KE back most of all!


        • Reb
          I hate to burst you and your dads bubble but there is no Z1 or KZ ever made that would do 180 mph without a 1500 cc big bore kit and 8 to 10 thousand dollars put in the motor. 180 mph is just under what the pro stock bikes are running in the quarter with 1500 cc big bore kits, two speed slipper clutch trannys and the heads turned around backwards so the fuel injection is facing forward and the exhaust come out behind the rider s butt. They are only running in the high 190s at low 6
          second quarters. A new stock Z1 would do 135 to 140 depending on the riders weight and the later KZs would do about 150 on a good day with a light rider. my 77KZ 1000 has 3 grand in the motor with a 1075 cc kit, balanced and welded crank, ported and polished head, 36mm flatslide mikunis, an old warrior reversion header, race cut trans with and MRE lockup clutch, web 425 lift race cams with solid adjustable timing chain tensioner, kosman lengthened swingarm and a NHRA DID approved drag race rear wheel with the tire screwed to the rim, no kick start in the motor and the bike weigh 450 lbs with 150 Hp at the rear wheel on the dyno at Harley. So it way way far from being anything close to stock and still only does 145 to 150 on a good day back when I was 200 lbs.

          BD


          • Do you guys remember the Factory turbocharged KZ1300’s.

            If I remember right it was the early 80’s when they were made. And I did get the pleasure to see one run regularly at the dragstrip back then.

            Most everything would beat them out of the hole for about 3 bike lengths then it was see ya ball game over. Them bikes cooked from the factory.


            • Gunfun
              One of my good friend here in Alabama has a KZ 1300 but not the turbo model as that was a aftermarket kit that they put on them as well as the KZ 1000s and yes they would be a little slow off the line but when the turbo spooled up you had better be hanging on for sure.

              The high pitched wail of the 1300 was unmistakable and always brought a smile to my face when I heard my buddies wind up but they were very heavy bikes and my KZ would leave his 1300 in the dust because his bike was way heavier than mine and he is 6 foot 2 inches tall and 280 lbs so he was at a huge weight disadvantage.

              BD


              • buldawg
                I thought they offered the turbo and non turbo model of the KZ1300. I’m pretty sure they came from the factory with the turbocharger option. Or do you mean your buddy added one to his non turbo model.


                • Gunfun
                  I don’t think that kawi offered them from the factory as turbos I may be wrong , I know that Honda and Suzuki had turbo modesl but that was back when the turbo technology was not real good and the Honda and Suzuki were very slow from a dead stop until the turbos spooled up so they never really sold well and they had overheating issues as well as turbo issues because they were air cooled and if you came in from riding fast on the turbos and just shut the bike off the oil in the turbo would bake into sludge and destroy the bearings in short order.

                  BD



                    • Gunfun
                      I never seen a KZ 1300 in the Eddie Lawson color scheme and certainly not a turbo one and I still have to believe that it is an imported bike that was not sold here in the USA as a factory option but most likely was brought back by a military service man that was stationed in japan at the time.

                      I know that Yamaha made a XJR1400 that was sold in Canada and Europe that came factory with brembo brakes and ohlins suspension and was the best sport standard that was made by the japs as we had one at Harley that we used a competitive test bike and it would out handle most any other sport standard like a ZRX 1200 or the Honda cbf 1000 and Suzuki bandits. but it was never sold here .

                      We also had a kawi ZX ninja 400 that was a Europe only bike that was an inline 400 cc four banger that had a power band of 8 to 14000 rpm and had 33 mm flat slides that the bore of the carbs was bigger than the pistons and it did not come alive till 8 grand but out on the grand prix track our top rider could eat up gsxr 750 and 1000s on the track because you did not have to slow down in the curves like you did on the big bore bikes, the big bore bikers would catch up in the straights only to be passed back up in the turns. it was a sweet little bike.

                      BD


                    • Gunfun
                      all my post are going to spam and I am wore out and got to get some sleep so talk to you tomorrow ok.

                      later

                      BD


                  • buldawg
                    Even the turbo cars that have the factory water and oil cooling still needed a cool down period before you shut the car down.

                    I remember one of the guys from the SRT club I was in when I that turbocharged SRT4. He was playing around with uping the boost on his car. He had the thing up in the mid 20psi on the boost. He came back from a run and the turbo was glowing red and you could see it in the middle of the afternoon.

                    He pulled up and shut the car down. He let the turbo cool down and when he went to start it up to go make a run. You heard the turbo start making its low pitch wine then all of a sudden you heard a screech. The bearings on the turbine shaft seized up. Needless to say that turbo got fried and never worked again.

                    Then he put a bigger turbo on it and a turbo timer that time around. That way when you turned the key off it would keep the engine running till the temperature came down on the turbo.


          • buldawg
            You could very well be right about it being imported by the guy that had it. The guy I’m guessing was in his 30’s and was in the service. Anyway cool bikes. It had a turbo. 🙂

            Do you remember the Yamaha YZR1300 my brother had one of those he bought new. Not turbocharged but still fun to ride. 🙂


            • Gunfun
              I really do think it was most likely brought back by a serviceman that was stationed in japan back then as that is the first KZ1300 that I have ever seen in the Eddie Lawson trim, there were plenty of KZ 1000 in that trim .

              I think you are meaning the FJR 1300 that Yamaha made that started as a 1200 and eventually became the 1300. That is the same engine that the XJR 1400 that I mentioned was based on and also the old XS 1100 Yamahas all shared the same basic engine design.

              BD


              • buldawg
                It was in the late 80’s or early 90’s when my brother had it. One of the ads showed that motorcycle going around a circle track in front of a ZR1 Corvette if I remember right. They were supposedly claimed to be the new 200mph king of the hill vehicles at that time.

                Oh and the motorcycle was in Yamaha’s racing colors in yellow with the black stripes if that helps if we are talking about the same bike. I really thought it was a YZR. That is what most of Yamaha’s race bikes were.


                • Gunfun
                  I was thinking you were meaning a UJM ( universal Japanese motorcycle) like the KZ 1000 and 1300 and ZRX or Suzuki bandits, but yes if it was a race styled bike then it was a YZR and not an FJR and I do remember the yellow and black bumble bee race colors.

                  So I was wrong about that and had the model mixed up since the KZs were more of a standard style bike and not the full fairing race type bike like the YZRs were.

                  BD


          • That’s precisely why I said “He Claimed”.
            I remember him having to re-lace the rear wheel every season and went through many masterlinks. Always kept a spare in the Windjammer!
            My Brother was the one that told me about the 650 getting sideways on him @60mph but I listened to it from over a mile away and hoped they both came back in good shape, Sounded weirdly reminiscent of a Nasty 2 stroke or one of these rice rockets!
            The bike no longer surged and throttle response was instantaneous as was power to 8000 RPM! I bought that bike for $450 including the Windjammer with the locking compartment, with my savings from being “on the road”.

            Reb


            • Reb
              Ok I missed the “he claimed ” part but I have never had any issues with broken spokes or chains on mine but my rear wheel is also NHRA approved and the spokes are 3/16 in diameter so they are larger than stock spokes. I have also replaced the 630 size chain on my KZ down to a 530 size as it is less weight and the new chains are way stronger than the old original chain that the KZs came with and have had no issues with it ever breaking or wearing out.

              Yea the old KZs had very distinctive high pitched howl and mine is running a 4 into 1 into 2 old Warrior reversion header that has no baffles and my wife can hear me coming from a couple miles away and always has the garage open for me when I pull in the driveway.

              BD


  12. That 3/4″ group was 3 pellets touching vertically beside another 3 pellets 1/2″ over, all touching vertically. It looked like a 6 in Dominoes and measured 3/4″ from outside corners horizontally. So I guess you’re right about the outside to outside. I just used my ruler to save time but it was a bit smaller than the inch it seemed through the scope and by just looking at it! If I could just get ’em on the bull.Alas,it’s dark and cold for the night now and my back is screaming at me. I really didn’t expect to have any issues with the little 4X scope because mine’s just a 30 year old Tasco but the Centerpoint shows the curvature of it’s glass and isn’t as bright but it does have a finer reticle. I’ll be getting those mounts come the 3rd and we’ll see how tight they get then!While I was checking out the trigger I spotted the spring Buldawg was talking about removing and just pushed it to the side of the adj. screw and probably knocked 1/2 lb off it I was trying to get used to it again when the sun went down. Tomorrow should be a big day for this fine Regal! I just hope it’s warm enough to take it outside so I don’t bang it on something.

    Reb


    • Reb
      Don’t you all have jackets and coats down there in Texas.

      The high has been around 32 the last few days here and they say 2″ of snow this weekend. But I will be still shooting. 🙂


      • Yeah but it’s not like up there. Ya’ll have access to Moon boots and ski gear.I’m in my ski jumper( learned from my Kansas days) right now sitting with a heater on my left and leaky window on the right. My nose won’t stop tingling and running and I’ve lost a bit of skin from that already. But I’ll get done what I can once the temp gets above 45 or so. I have to take breaks ever so often when my back starts hurting this bad that I lose a lotta daylight that way. I spent most of my shooting session waiting for the shivering to lessen.
        I don’t do cold well. That’s why I moved back to Texas but the grass is looking greener in Mexico right now!

        Reb


      • I have to tell ya I don’t think I’m gonna be able to do cold at all anymore. I noticed a lotta stumble steps today and just got back from the corner store, barely. The cold gets me tensed up all over and makes me appear even more spastic than I feel The doc said I suffer from neuralgia due to my back injuries and now the strokes got me really messed up because now it’s even in my head.


        • Reb
          Truthfully I don’t do cold like I use to either.

          So the Regal trigger is a pain I guess your saying. Or can you live with it. I think the gun could be pretty accurate if it had a better trigger. Let me know if you make some changes.


          • Actually the adj. screw wasn’t doing Anything. I think it was improperly installed unless Crosman’s trying to pull a fast one. I’ll be taking a closer look later but I think you got a bad one. I’ll be able to work with it.I just gotta figure out what is supposed to be done before I start moddin’ things. I’m not concerned about any warranty but I just wanna see how it’s supposed to work first.
            It wasn’t all in your head!
            I love it!
            Thanks again!
            Reb



          • I finally got the last few lines of your note deciphered. You were gonna keep this gun! The mods on the shroud make it QUIET I was wondering how loud it would be in an enclosed environment so I chose a piece of floor that I wouldn’t wreck and all I heard was the pellet smack, INside! It’s blasting through 3/4″plywood at 20yds and keeping the pellets in about 1-1.5″ regardless of flyers or trigger pull oopses or hold difference. The cocking is a little on the heavy side but tolerable(left handed) even after multiple strokes affecting my left side but the thing I need to work on the most is smacking( we had to work hard to get this left arm & hand to do ANYTHING during my second stay) the barrel left handed to get it open( sorta looks like a chicken’ head when he’s strutting or feeding. I’m really lucky to be able to live at home so I can shoot instead of a nursing home like the Doc’s original prognosis.




      • Reb
        Did you get my link to a schematic on the trigger in that regal so you can see how it works and what that one screw does. Trust me if you only take out the spring on the trigger it self it will make a world of difference in the feel and pull weight of the trigger and you can still use the screw to adjust the first stage pull length the only thing removing the screw really does it not let the trigger reset the sear if you start to pull and then let off before it fires other than add to the pull weight. Here is the link a gin in case you did not get it.
        https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztn98ugjgvxirnx/Gamo_Whisper.pdf

        BD



          • Gunfun
            The only trigger that fits in the regal is the GRTIII just like the ones for my venom, titan and the crosman clone. the GRT4 trigger is totally different and does not fit in the crosman and benjis like we have that I am sure of.

            I wish my garage was heated so I could get out there and machine the slot in one of my GRTIII triggers to see how the bearing fits in it but is supposed to get down to the low 20s here tonight and only up to the low 40s tomorrow and that is just to cold to work in with my arthritis.

            BD


        • Yeah, I checked it out but Yahoo went down again so I couldn’t E-mail you. but now you know.It’s gonna be the same as his GRTlll & that’s the exploded view.
          I’ll be using that tomorrow too if my back can do it. but hold on you were talking about removing a spring. Not a screw right?
          Thanks!


          • Reb
            Yes it is a spring and pin that you remove from the trigger blade itself. All you do is remove the stock and look at the pin that the trigger pivots on it has a c clip on one side and a round head on the other side. Just remove the c clip but hold your finger on it as it will try to fly away, then hold light pressure down toward the action on the trigger blade and remove the pin that you took the c clip off of and the trigger blade will come out with the spring and pin that holds the spring in the hollow of the trigger all as one unit. then just push the pin out of the trigger blade and the spring will fall out ( you can see the end of the spring right next to the screw that you adjust the trigger pull with and most of the time you have to move the end of the spring with the screwdriver to get to the screw head ). make sure the pin that has two different diameters does not fall out of the trigger as that is the pin that rides on the sear and also work for the bear trap to prevent the trigger from moving when cocking it.

            Then just reinstall the trigger back into the action and you are done.

            If you are going to try the bearing trick, the bearing fits over the pin that has two different diameters and it fits on the big part of the pin in the hollow of the trigger so that the bearing rides on the sear instead of the pin itself and that is why it makes it smoother because the bearing rolls on the sear instead of the pin which does not turn very easily like the bearing does.

            If you want the safety to work you need to get a 2.5mm wide by 5mm ID by 8mm OD bearing to put on the pin, if you do not care if the safety works and want a lesser first stage and very short crisp pull to release the sear then get a 3mm wide by 5mm ID by 9mm OD bearing and put on the pin. Both bearing should not cost more than 5 bucks.

            If you have any issues just give me a call.

            BD


      • Reb
        I do like pistol grip stocks.

        I broke my right wrist when I was a kid racing moto-cross. If I shoot a conventional stock and it doesn’t have enough downward rake for my trigger had it makes my wrist hurt when I pull the trigger. Especially if Its a heavy trigger. But if I use a pistol grip stock it keeps my wrist in a more natural angle.



  13. Reb
    Before you go and buy the GRTIII trigger try removing the spring on the trigger and /or the bearing trick and see how you like it first as it may be to your liking with just the spring out and the 2.5mm by 5mm ID by 8mmOD bearing from a hobby shop that sell RC stuff and the bearing only costs a couple bucks versus 33 bucks for a GRTIII.

    It worth a try first and just because you are getting the money coming in you don’t want to spend it needlessly.

    BD




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