The Daisy 853: Part 5

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Daisy 853
Daisy Avanti 853.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • Don’t despair!
  • Thanks to Daisy
  • Sighting-in
  • The rear sight
  • RWS Hobby
  • RWS R10 Match Pistol
  • Sig Sauer Match Ballistic Alloy
  • H&N Finale Match Pistol
  • Vogel
  • The trigger
  • The verdict

Okay, this is Part 5 and I am finally ready to test the Daisy 853 10-meter target rifle for accuracy. It’s been awhile since we looked at the 853, so allow me to recap. I bought the rifle used at a good price and tested it for velocity in Part 2. That was when I learned that my rifle wasn’t quite performing up to standard, so I got some parts from Daisy and proceeded to rebuild the powerplant. It was a basic rebuild that addresses the pump piston seal, the felt wiper that holds the oil for the piston and all the inlet valve parts.

Don’t despair!

After the first rebuild the velocity was consistently around 450 f.p.s. with RWS Hobby pellets. According to the Pyramyd Air website, Daisy rates the rifle at 510 f.p.s., and I initially made the mistake of thinking that my rifle was not up to snuff yet. I ordered more parts for a more intensive overhaul, but while I waited for them to arrive I heard from 853 owners and from coaches around the country. They were all getting similar velocities from their rifles. Only reader Bulldawg76 seems to get over 500 f.p.s. from his rifle, and he has done some non-standard modifications to it.

When the new parts arrived I installed many of them. Of particular interest was the new bolt that I thought might have been a problem. But it turned out not to be. The velocity with Hobbys after the new parts were installed was still 450 f.p.s., more or less. That leads me to an observation. Maybe some Daisy 853s will shoot up to 510 f.p.s., but not all of them want to. There is no magic about that number, either. Plenty of 10-meter target air pistols do fine at 450 f.p.s. I used to compete with one! My advice is as long as your rifle is in the 400s, just use it as is. If it drops below 400 f.p.s. then I think it’s time for a rebuild.

I’m glad I rebuilt the powerplant because the felt wiper was almost disintegrated when I removed it. So it wasn’t going to last much longer. And I had to oil the piston head heavily to get over 400 f.p.s. That is when a gun needs a rebuild. Now the rifle works as it should, and the felt wiper keeps it oiled all the time without my constant attention.

Thanks to Daisy

I want to thank Daisy for their help with this article. I ordered parts 3 times from them and they always sent them for nothing. I probably could have ordered almost anything, but I don’t like to abuse generosity when it’s given, so I kept my orders to the minimum. Thank you, Daisy!

The 853 is not an easy airgun to work on. Although it does come apart and go back together as Daisy describes in their .pdf document, it takes both skill and persistence to get it together again — at least that was my experience. This is not a job I would undertake lightly, nor one I would recommend to someone new to airguns.

But now everything is done and the rifle is back working as it is supposed to. The next step is to see what she’ll do on targets. That’s what we will do today. And I also want to look at that adjustable rear peep sight more closely than I ever have before. Let’s get started!

I shot from 10 meters with the rifle rested on a sandbag. To make the stock longer I installed all 3 stock spacers.

Sighting-in

This rifle is used, plus I have had it apart two different times and the rear sight has been off. And I replaced the front aperture insert with one that is smaller. You can’t mess around with the sights much more than that! So I wondeerd if it would even be on paper at 10 meters. But it was.

It not only was on paper, the impact point was pretty well centered when I started sighing-in with RWS Hobby pellets. But they were hitting the target about a quarter-inch too high. Now, I could find out about that rear sight!

The rear sight

My rifle came with the Daisy 5899 peep sight. It’s made of plastic and I have heard coaches cuss over that fact. But I have also seen kids win matches with the same sight. Years ago a coach told me that whenever he adjusted the sight in the opposite direction from the one it had been moving, he moved it three clicks (yes, it does have clicks, though they are not pronounced and must be felt rather than heard) to take up the slop. Then he could adjust the sight very precisely. For 20 years I thought this was private wisdom passed on by a coach with experience.

I received the manual with my new/old 853 and when I read about adjusting the rear sight I was surprised to see that warning right there in the manual! All these years I thought I knew a secret. Well, given how few guys ever read a manual, maybe I did!

I now needed to adjust the impact of the pellet down, so I looked at the elevation wheel and got another surprise. The direction of adjustment is the opposite of what I expected! I would normally turn it to the right (clockwise) to move it lower. If I hadn’t looked at the arrow on the adjustment knob I would instinctively have turned the knob in the wrong direction.

The manual also actually tells you that each click moves the strike of the pellet 0.048-inches at 10 meters. If that’s not precision, I don’t know what is!

I didn’t know the state of the rear sight when I adjusted it the first time, so I just cranked it down 5 clicks. The pellet moved down, but not far enough. Two more clicks dropped the impact just below the 10, so I now had an opportunity to adjust the sight in the opposite direction from the one in which it had been moving. I adjusted it up 1 click, expecting it to not move, but it did. The rifle was now sighted in perfectly for the RWS Hobby pellet.

Daisy 853 sight-in
The top group holds 7 pellets, including 2 that were fired after the rear sight was adjusted. I adjusted the sight one time (5 clicks down), which dropped the pellet lower, but not low enough. Two more clicks down gave me the bottom group.

RWS Hobby

After adjusting the rear sight up 1 click, I moved to a different target and put the first shot through the 10-ring. I decided to leave the sights there and I finished the 5-shot group with 4 more shots. Total group size for 5 Hobbys measures 0.195. That’s pretty darn good for a non-target pellet!

Daisy 853 Hobby target
Five RWS Hobby pellets went into 0.195-inches at 10 meters. This rifle can shoot!

RWS R10 Match Pistol

Next I tried 5 RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets. These have 4.50mm heads, and no, I did not sort them with the PelletGage. One test at a time is enough! Five pellets went into 0.247-inches at 10 meters. Not as good as the Hobbys.

Daisy 853 R10 target
Five RWS R10 Pistol pellets with 4.50mm heads made this 0.247-inch group at 10 meters. Probably not the pellet for this rifle.

Sig Sauer Match Ballistic Alloy

Next I tried some Sig Sauer Match Ballistic Alloy pellets. I didn’t try these during the velocity test, but I got sidetracked by the need to fix (I thought) the powerplant and really only tested the gun with Hobbys. This pellet is lighter than a Hobby — at 5.25 grains, so we expect it to go to a different place on the target — probably higher. And that’s exactly what it did.

Five Sig target pellets went into 0.25-inches at 10 meters. Yes, that is exactly a quarter-inch! I don’t plan this stuff — it just happens and I write it down as I go.

Daisy 853 Sig target
Five Sig Match Ballsitic Alloy pellets went into exactly 0.25-inches at 10 meters. It’s good, but I think the rifle can do better.

H&N Finale Match Pistol

I tried H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets next. I tried the ones with 4.50mm heads. Five of them went into a well-centered group that measures 0.152-inches between centers. This looks like a pellet to use in this rifle.

Daisy 853 Finale Match target
Five H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets with 4.50mm heads made this 0.152-inch group at 10 meters. This is the best group of the test and may be the one for this rifle!

Vogel

The last pellet I tried in the 853 on this day was the Vogle from Pilkguns. This one also has a 4.50mm head. Five went into 0.155-inches at 10 meters — almost identical to what the Finale Match did.

Daisy 853 Vogel target
Five Vogel pellets with 4.50mm heads made this 0.155-inch group at 10 meters. Very close to the Finale Match.

The trigger

The trigger is one of the known drawbacks of the 853. The pull is long and creepy. The test rifle trigger breaks at between 4 lbs. 6 oz. and 4 lbs. 12 oz., with an average of 4 lbs. 8 oz. Of course it is very possible to modify the trigger for a lighter letoff, but that involves disassembling the rifle. Like a woman who has just given birth, I want to avoid doing that for a while. Let’s just enjoy what we have, shall we? I do have the parts and I probably will get around to doing it, but let me take a breather.

The verdict

As expected, the Daisy 853 turned in a great accuracy test. For the price there is nothing on the market to match it — at least not that I am aware of.

The trigger is rough and heavy, but it’s not so bad that it spoils the accuracy. Pumping is heavy but easy enoiugh for an adult, if not for a kid.

All said and done, the 853 is a wonderful target rifle. Yes, technology has passed it by, but that doesn’t mean it can’t still hold its own. Tens of thousands of them are still doing just that!

190 thoughts on “The Daisy 853: Part 5

  1. B.B.
    I would love to get this Daisy, maybe Jack should have Jamell shot this in her studio!
    But the difficulty assembly and the not so great trigger really put me off.
    Or i could buy 2 and use one as a Guinea Pig. Maybe you could work with Daisy, like you did with Mendoza, to fix all the bugs of this otherwise very accurate shooter. Being so difficult to work on, must drive all the coaches out there crazy.

    -Y


  2. Yogi, the most common rebuild needed on these rifles, after tens of thousands of shots, and years of use, doesn’t require you to open the action.
    Just take the rifle out of the stock, remove a few pieces, and replace 2 orings, a felt wiper, the valve stem, spring and retainer clip.
    Then reassemble in reverse order.


    • 45Bravo
      Tryed that trigger stop modification on my Brodax you were talking about for double action pistol triggers. Well sort of.

      I tryed with other a eraser tip glued to the trigger housing like you mentioned. But as i shot it started changing the more I shot. Started compressing more.

      I ended up getting out the hot glue gun and put a big round drop of glue on the trigger guard. And of course let it cool off and firm up. I then took a razor knife and trimmed it to fit the trigger guard width. Then kept trimming it back to get the shot to go off soon as it contacted the hot glue stop.

      All I can say is the gun is a dream to shoot in double action now. It feels just like the trigger does in single action and maybe even better than single action. But I can pull off the shots as fast as I want now and more accurately now in double action. And the hot glue looks like a nylon piece that’s suppose to be there. It trimmed up real nice and was a very easy mod to do.

      One of these days I might just be a good pistol shooter. Especially after that mod. Thanks. πŸ™‚


      • GF1,

        Remember the screw in the back of the trigger guard? Same thing,.. only no compression. Dead solid stop.

        That is a good idea though. Glue gun,…… ha, ha, ha,…… I love it!!!! My kind of mod.! πŸ˜‰


        • Chris USA
          Here is what 45 Bravo wrote. A 2 stage trigger stop is different than a double action trigger stop.

          A stop on a 2 stage trigger is for trigger over travel when the shot breaks. A stop on a double action trigger is to allow the trigger to be set up for a rapid repeat shot. Here’s his reply.

          “Try this if you want to. I don’t know how far the trigger on the Broadax pulls on double action before the hammer falls.
          But in shooting double action revolvers in competition, we did this for a cheap and easy advantage.

          Glue a pencil eraser to the back of the trigger guard, where the trigger will hit it when pulled, squeeze the trigger double action, if it hits the eraser but you can’t make the hammer fall, trim some of the eraser thickness down.
          Repeat until you get it where you like it.

          The idea is to be able to pull the trigger quickly until it hits the rubber stop, then it just takes a little more force to compress the rubber enough to make the hammer fall.

          With practice, it is faster than single action, and more accurate that double action only.

          I don’t condone this on a defensive arm, but to get back on a target fast, with minimal movement, and maximum accuracy, it’s great.”


          • GF1,

            2 stage trigger VS double action trigger???? Sounds the same to me.

            No,… really,… I got it. It saves the wasted movement on double action use on a pistol.

            Sounds like time to bust out the glue gun on the 92FS!!! Maybe try out some of that 1 handed shooting I have been “hearing” about. πŸ˜‰


            • Chris USA
              The one handed is not working out as good for me.

              But again I don’t shoot pistol often.

              But then again two handed pistol shooting is doing better for me right now. So that’s what I’m stick’n with for now.

              I just need more pistol shooting time to make true evaluations right now. Give me a rifle and that’s a different story. Pistols I never really shot them much. So maybe it’s time to get my head in them more now.

              I want to get a firearm pistol for home defense sooner than later. So this Brodax is just getting the engine revved up so to speak. But I have set a goal for myself with my Brodax shooting. It is for a reason. I will shoot pistol good before it’s over. πŸ˜‰


          • Oh, just a heads up, I forgot to mention.
            But you may have figured it out by now.

            With this mod,
            DONT THUMB COCK IT TO SINGLE ACTION!
            The trigger moves farther back farther when cocked to single action.
            You may not be able to squeeze the trigger enough to compress the rubber to fire the gun.
            So you would have to cut the glue stack to release the hammer.

            Then start over..


            • 45Bravo
              Thanks for mentioning that incase other people might try it.

              But yep I did find that out when I was test fitting the eraser tip before I glued it on.

              The hot glue worked out nice instead of the eraser. I’m going to trim a little more off today so I can have just a little more trigger travel before it contacts. Yesterday I was still needing a little confused more finger pressure than I liked when the shot goes off.

              But I’m glad you told me about your little trick. It’s made the pistol more fun to shoot for sure.


              • There goes my phone again adding words.

                “Yesterday I was still needing a little (confused) more finger pressure than I liked when the shot goes off.”

                Confused was not suppose to be in that sentence. New phone is already being a pain.


            • 45Bravo
              You know what now I see why a air pistol revolver shot in double action gets lower velocity even when waiting between shots than when shot single action.

              Never really thought about. But like you just mentioned in double action the hammer doesn’t go as far back as it does in single action. So that means the hammer doesn’t strike the valve stem as hard in double action as it does in single action.

              I think you just made me realize how to increase the velocity in a air gun revolver without going inside the pistol. Get a dremel tool and grind some of the hammer back where it contact’s the valve stem. Then I guess if a person wanted too they could go inside and give the hammer more spring pressure. But that would probably increase trigger pressure. Hmm maybe I could drill a hole in the frame and hammer and attach a spring with two screws through a eye hole spring. The spring would not be in the way if I attached it on the side of the hammer. Everything would function as normal.

              Hmm I think I will grind the hammer on the Brodax and see if the velocity increases then do the spring. Got to chrony it first through before I grind. πŸ™‚


              • I did not say that.
                I just said when you thumb cock a double action pistol, the full cock position puts the trigger just a little farther rearward than shooting double action.
                It happens on powder burners, and most air guns.

                Please don’t do anything to your gun until you fully understand how it works.

                On Some guns the exposed hammer doesn’t actually strike the valve stem.
                The hammer may just be the mechanism to cock the internal striker.

                I suggested the rubber bumper mod becsuse
                it works,
                but is not a permanent modification to the gun,
                and doesn’t require any disassembly.

                I accept no responsibility to any modifications you do to your own guns.


                • 45Bravo
                  You don’t have to throw in a I disclaimer on my part. But good idea.

                  And yep on the Brodax the hammer does directly hit the valve stem. So yes a longer hammer stroke should increase the velocity on a Brodax. That’s what removing metal from the hammer contact area where it hits the valve stem will do. It will increase hammer stroke.


                  • I didn’t think so on your part, but you never know, and others read these post too.

                    On my Crosman Mark 1’s for a increase in power beyond what the power adjustment screw gives, I add a shim to increase the Spring preload.

                    I also have a heavier hammer I had built for the same purpose, more power, with out increasing the preload.

                    I choose these tweaks instead of porting the valve, because of the age of the mark 1’s I don’t want to do a permanent alteration.

                    Maybe a weight added to the hammer spur to temporarily increase its mass to see if it does what you want.
                    Before you make a permanent modification.

                    Just a thought.
                    I am not familiar with the Broadaxe other than what I have read here on the blog.


                    • 45Bravo
                      The Brodax is a 39 dollar gun. That’s part of why I chose it. I know me and how I am. Haven’t done pistols and like to mod. So I figured I would start with a cheap gun.

                      Things are starting to roll in my mind pistol wise. So a cheap air gun is the way I went. I got more homework to do. But I’m going to try some stuff as I go.

                      Heck I’m already using pellets in it instead of bb’s. And it’s a smooth bore at that. And shooting pretty good I will add. I did that with air gun rifles too. And modding and pushing a guns design is what I mean.

                      All in the name of fun and accuracy. πŸ™‚



  3. I don’t think there is another accurate Single Stroke Piston rifle in this price range.

    Third sentence in The Trigger section you misspelled average as”averaqge”.


  4. After all the hard work you put into the Daisy 853 it must be very satisfying to find that it shoots as well as it does.
    I had to fit a scope to my target rifle as I was struggling with my diopter sights.


  5. Good series of articles. Would have loved to see the tear down, but that is a whole lot of extra work. Yes, Daisy is great, stellar in fact. As you noted, the plastic peeper is very sensitive to adjustments. It may be plastic, but it works very, very well. The one on the 499 is plastic and without checking, may be the same one.


  6. I may have to keep one of these in mind in a couple, three years. A few months back I let my grandson shoot some balloons with my Daisy 99 and he has been wanting to come up and do it some more. He is coming up to spend the weekend so yesterday we bought him a Daisy 105 Buck. I am sure it will not be long before he wants to shoot Gadada’s other air rifles. He has already been eyeing the 1906 BSA. I may end up having to restore my Edge to stock. Oh well. πŸ˜‰


  7. I just went back and looked at the 10 meter test for the Umarex Fusion and the Black Ops Junior sniper rifle. It appears that pneumatic rifles, whether air or CO2, are inherently more accurate with a wider range of pellets.


  8. What can I say…you’ve again shown that you’ve never steered me wrong.
    Ten years ago, when we started down the shooting road my first rifle purchase was the 853, based on what some guy on a forum I just happened to stumble on doing a web search recommended the Daisy as a great low cost entry in target shooting.
    That guy of course being you B.B.
    The second gun I purchased, again on a post of yours was my Slavia 630.
    Gotta admit, over the years I’ve bought some duds that are long gone (I’ve donated a few to our local scout troop). but you’ve never steered me wrong Tom.
    Myself and my two sons owe a lot of our shooting enjoyment to you Tom.



      • Okay…I’ll admit to being a bit of a klutz when it comes to that sort of thing.
        That being said, in the past 10 years (and at me estimation about 50000 shots) I’ve twice had a rebuild done.
        Both times I noticed that all of a sudden the pellets would start hitting low…first a bit and then dramatically (5-6″ at 10m).
        But I’m lucky. The dealer I purchased it from in Canada has an excellent service tech who does the rebuild complete for $75. Here in Canada the 853 is the standard training weapon for the Army Cadets.
        Don’t know if you have anything similar in the U.S….it’s sort of like the Cubs and Scouts for boys/girls aged 14+. Teaches everything the Scouts do plus shooting skills and leadership training for a possible future career in the military.
        Anyhoo…my dealer is one of the ones that supplies the 853 plus service to the Cadets…so he has lots of experience with these guns and has learned to be fast. From drop off to pickup is less than a week, so I’m very lucky in that respect.
        After all these shots, if it weren’t that we have worn the finish down on the wrist of the gun and a bit on the forearm it shoots and looks like the day we bought it ten years ago.


        • CSD,

          Wow! You are lucky to have someplace to take your rifle. With that kind of information our readers can better gauge the interval between rebuilds. After doing this job a couple times, I’d pay to have it done.

          B.B.


  9. BB, Brent, etc.–Here is my update on my Gletcher m 1944. As Brent has said, it is a co2 powered BB smooth bore bb gun. It is very accurate. I have put over 4,ooo bb,s through it and it functioned perfectly for every shot. It looks like it just came out of the box, no signs of wear. I removed the bayonet ( one screw) but I can put it back for display. My one complaint is that unlike the original Mosin Nagant m 1944, the front sight is not adjustable for windage, My 44 shot 1″@ to the right of center. When I tired of using Kentucky windage , I replaced the front sight with one from the firearm 44. If anyone wants the details of how I did it, just ask. This gun is perfect for plinking. From a bag rest, it still shoots 1/2-5/8 ” 5 shot groups,( 10 M) despite its crude military sights and stock (and my 79 1/2 year old eye). I hope that Gletcher will make similar guns. They will have to copy rifles that have protruding magazines, like the Lee-Enfield. I cant understand why more bloggers have not written about this gun If you like replicas , this gun was made for you. The large number of replica pistols available indicates that there is a market for this type of gun. Ed


  10. Hello, BB. I loved this series on the 853. I am a great fan myself, having added a model 853C to my collection many years ago. It is not a rifle easily found here in Brazil, so mine always attract a lot of attention. My rifle gets little use, however: in competition circles here, most shooters are found in the Spring Piston Class, or they go straight to PCPs and all that stuff. It seems to me that the beauty of the 853 is its simplicity, but I don’t think it is fully appreciated these days.


  11. BB
    Completely off topic, but what do you think about the chance of getting a fair trade at the Mansfield show for a used or new P-rod? I would have either a Crosman 600 with box or a FWB 65 for possible trading.



      • BB– The m 44 has become my favorite plinking gun. It used to be my Huntington Beach Beeman R7, but it suddenly lost power ( a 200 fps velocity drop) and Crosman premiers, and superdomes now get stuck in the barrel. Brent– I have not tried pellets because I would have to remove the magazine and load it with a single pellet (I don’t think that married pellets would be better–ha ha) for each shot. I was going to try pellets, but when I started getting 5/8″ groups routinely, I decided it would not be worth the trouble. The trigger is light, around 3 lbs and feels like a Mosin trigger , but much better. Several years ago, before I got involved with air guns, I bought a co2 PPK. It is somewhere in the dark recesses of my basement, neglected and unloved. After loading the magazines for a week, I gave up and never wanted to try another bb gun. I sounded just like you in your reply. However, I collect military .22 cal. training rifles , so I had to try this gun, and was surprised to find out just how good it is. If the ever come out with a pellet version, I will get one and extend my outdoor 10meter range. Ed


  12. BB, ED ET AL
    The Gletcher M1944 BB Gun has become one of my favorites as well. Out of the box it was shooting about 5\8 inch left at 10M and after a couple thousand shots I too became tired of useing Kentucky windage. My fix was a lot simpler than ED’s. Rather than replace the front sight – way too much work, I removed the upper front hand guard exposing the 16 inch steel barrel and simply massaged a bit of bend into the barrel until the POI coincided with the sight picture. Put everything back together and after another thousand shots it still shoots to the POI. If you do this procedure make sure you scribe a mark on top of the barrel next to the flash line on the front barrel block so that you have a reference point for barrel alignment as the barrel can be rotated easily. If you can’t bend the barrel enough while it is in the gun simply remove by pushing out through the receiver. Be careful not to lose the rubber BB snubbing gromet on the rear of the barrel. Bend the barrel by pressing down over a couple of pencils about a foot apart and reference the index mark you made so the bend is in the right direction. I don’t know how much windage you can correct for doing it this way but I would say up to an inch or a bit more would not pose a problem.
    The mag that came with the gun chronys around 420-430 fps and about 120 shot count as advertised. The two extra mags I purchased from PA are more than 120 fps faster with a useable shot count of 35 to 45. I guess the greater pressure difference makes that 16 inch barrel sing! I believe those two mags are actually built for the short barrelled Gletcher 1891 or Obrez version of the Mosin Nagant 91\30. These two mags give the gun excellent long range performance while the original mag is great for the indoor 10M range. I find tin cans at 40 and 50 yards are fairly easy shots once you learn how to use the rear sight elevator.
    This gun has become for me a passable 10M gun with 1\2 to 5\8 inch groups offhand and a wonderful long range plinker outside. As I once said before on this blog it would give the Daisy Avanti 499 a good run for the money!
    Dave


  13. For anyone interested,….

    Since we are on peeper sights with front inserts,…. I took the smallest insert ( on a 499 ) and found a very small washer that would “press” inside of it. It went in 99%, but a hammer and a pin punch finished the job. Hundreds of shots and it is still in there. Aim is very precise. I recommend it.


  14. BB– I do not have a Hakim, YET! There are no airgun shows in the area where I live. I have to depend on the Middletown gun show . 2 airgun dealers usually show up.I also buy guns from Pyramyd Air. No Hakims have turned up , here. A few years ago, a .22 lr. Hakim trainer was up for sale at a nearby gun shop. It was missing the magazine , sights, and a few other parts. Condition NRA horrible, so I let it go. If you can find one for me, I would consider buying it. Redrafter– Thank you, it was your original post that convinced me to buy the Gletcher. I have had the same experience with magazines– the one that came with it has a velocity of 424 fps, and the other 2 are about 120-150 fps higher. If you bend the barrel, will it shoot to the center at all ranges, or just for one distance? If new bbs come on the market, with a different poi, I can easily correct for windage, without taking the gun apart. The hole in the firearm sight hood makes the post visible in dim light. The Gletcher sight does not have the hole. Have you found a use for the bayonet? I am going to use it when I toast marshmallows, or make shish-kebob. Ed


  15. An open question,… POI shift from temperature changes?

    Gunfun1 and I were talking the other day about metal expansion and contraction and it’s effects on POI, point of impact. So,….. I was wondering what other readers have experienced, especially those that shoot competition, with regards to temp. change and POI shift. With summer here, it is mot uncommon for my guns to go from a low humidity, a/c cooled 68 degree indoors (to) a shaded, but humid and 90+ degrees outdoors.

    I have a hold-over cheat sheet which is constantly getting added to,…. showing different guns, with different pellets and at different yardages out to 100 yds. I will usually do few test shots and adjust hold-over a little if it is not what my cheat sheet shows. It is usually close, but sometimes not the same.

    Do you note temperature differences on a hold-over sheet?
    Do you let the gun “warm up” if it will be subject to a 20 degree change? If so, how long?
    Do you use scope clicks to compensate? or use hold-over adjustment?
    If doing either, how much would consider the issue to be a scope compensation (and) how much would you consider it to be the stock/action?

    As you can see, I am thinking about delving into this a bit deeper and was just curious to hear from other readers that may have already done so.

    Thanks, Chris


    • B.B.,

      Just saw your comment from yesterday the dealt with temperature and humidity. “Warm air is less dense. Warm air holds less moisture. Because it is less dense, there is less of it too hold moisture”.

      Quite the fitting comment, given the just asked question. Looks like temperature plays a bigger factor than humidity.


  16. BB and all,

    I have a question that is off subject that concerns the long term storage of lead pellets. Once I have settled on the pellets my airgun collection likes, I want to buy large quantities of those particular ones, but I am concerned about oxidation. What would be the best way to prevent such?



    • RR,

      I have used a product that is meant to dispel moisture on spark plug wires and distributor caps, back in the day. It is still sold. Silicone based. It goes on wet and dries to the touch. That would seem good to me. The typical name is Wire Dryer, or something to that effect.

      You could put them in a gallon zip lock, laying flat on a table, spray in a “surrounding” mist, let sit, dump out and let dry on a old towel or t-shirt. In fact, I may try that as I have some that are showing signs of oxidation that I bought about 1 1/2 years ago.

      Outa’ here, shopping and such and then heading out to shoot. Later, Chris


      • Chris USA
        Yep waiting to hear how those stock shims work out. And don’t forget to say if you notice your scope zero has changed after taking action out of stock and putting it back in.

        Will be waiting to hear. And going to send you a email and text later. Basically to test out my new phone. My other one finally very died the other day.



          • TT
            Look at the last sentence of my reply. The new phone is already throwing in extra words.

            My other one finally (very) died.

            Was suppose to say… My other one finally died.

            But once I get my data transfered I think I’m going to make it finally very dead. Think it’s going to see up close what a pellet looks like from my .25 Marauder.




              • Oh and had a shaving cream can that was empty. Well had a little bit left in it. I put it out in the sun for about 3 hrs out around 45 yards. Shot it with the .25 Mrod. It made a rooster tail spray of white foam about 10 foot in the air.

                Hit the record button and pulled very off the shot. Guess what happened. My wife called right when I pulled the trigger. How’s that for perfect timing. Or should I say not perfect timing.

                What I found out is there is a setting you can turn on to block any kind of interruption like phone calls or texts or emails when your in video mode.

                So live and learn. But darn I was mad. It would of made a cool video.



                  • GF1,

                    Maybe it is a “smart-(er)” phone? Maybe it reads your mind? You are trying (very) hard to get a cool video? You are getting (very) frustrated with your new phone? You were (very) aggravated that your wife called at a (very) inopportune time?

                    Just sayin’,…… maybe?

                    Collecting gun “warm up” data,….. it is like watching paint dry,… πŸ™

                    It warmed up 4 degrees in a 1/2 hour. 77 to 81.


                    • Chris USA
                      You may be (very) well right about my phone. πŸ™‚

                      And I got another Droid Maxx but this one is called a Droid Maxx Turbo. It’s just a little bigger than my old phone. Guess what it won’t fit my back plate adapter to attach it to my iscope adapter.

                      So I m just going to order me a phone protector for it and drill the 3 holes in it to mount it to the eye scope adapter. That way it will be a precise fit for my phone.

                      Plus that way I can drill the holes in a different position. That way the 4 lock down thumbwheel screws on the adapter can be positioned top, bottom and left, right on the scope. Instead how they have the back plates drilled so the adapter lock down screws are at a 45Β° positions. Harder that way to center the phone to get scope center the way they did it.

                      The way I’m going to do it I can loosen one and tighten the other so it will move in only one direction. The way they did it you basically got to loosen all 4 lockdown screws and move and tighten till you get it.


                    • Chris USA
                      And I hit the button to soon.

                      And why are you waiting to shoot for the temperature on the gun to come up?

                      You should of did some 5 shot groups at say 50 yards right when you came out. And noted if the poi was changing as you shot groups and the gun warms up.




  17. RR— thank you for your reply. The breech seal on my R7 is ok. I am going to send it out and have a vortek kit installed . The stock fits me like a glove, unlike the new R7 and the HW 30. Ed


  18. Brent– The stock on the Mosin-Nagant (and Gletcher 44) was designed to meet the following requirements–in order of importance—#1 bayonet handle #2 war club #3 nut cracker (the Russians love nut-crackers, Tchaikovsky wrote an opera-ballet about one) #4 small boat oar or paddle #5 rifle stock. If you compete with shooters using pistol grip target stocks, you will be at a disadvantage. Ed



    • Ed
      Had to laugh. No beard. To darn hot right now. But no intension of shaving the mustache off. Had it since I was kid. Trim it but never have shaved it off. Kind of got knicknamed the mustache man at work. Everytime somebody needs help at work with their machines they say better go find the mustache man. πŸ™‚

      But I almost went and bought a can of shaving cream to do a video put my new phone don’t fit my back plate adapter that I have. So got to get that worked out first.

      Im going to take some videos of those 2 litre soda bottle reactive targets I make for the kids to shoot at when I get the phone mounting done up. Should turn out good I hope.

      I take and cut the top of a 2 litre bottle off. Blow up a balloon pretty good then carefully put it in the bottle. Then add some flour over the balloon. Shoot the bottle towards the bottom and flour goes flying in a big cloud. Real dry powdery dirt will work to if you don’t want to waste flour. We’ll see.


  19. To BB and all,

    Getting in a little late in the series and others probably already know what follows, but I haven’t seen it mentioned so I thought I’d share. I rarely post on forums or blogs because I consider myself a novice and don’t have much new to add. Most contributors are more experienced, so I sit back and try to absorb.

    I just got into airguns when I joined our local sportsmen club. They have an informal winter air gun postal league and I had the opportunity to try a Daisy 853. I had a blast. My club is affiliated with the CMP and after doing some research on line, I bought two. I figured I could try the trigger modification on one and if I screwed it up I had the other to shoot. Great step by step instructions with pictures were on the CMP web site but I don’t think they are still there. The same instructions can still be found here.

    https://umdrive.memphis.edu/ksingltn/public/Daisy%20M853%20M753%20M888%20M887%20Trigger%20Modification%20Instructions%20PDF.pdf

    While the modification can be done without ordering any parts, it requires some tricky drilling of the trigger housing. YOU DON’T NEED TO DO THAT! I discovered that the the whole Daisy series use the same trigger assembly and the Daisy 888 trigger housing is already drilled and tapped. $3.50 for the β€œ888 trigger housing machined” plus $2.00 for the β€œtrigger assembly” and the process becomes almost plug and play. The first time took me over three hours but ended well. Other club members asked me to do theirs and now If everything goes right, I’m down to under 45 min.. Daisy parts people are super nice and really great to deal with but, I guess for legal reasons, don’t ask them for help in modifying their guns. Understandably, they aren’t permitted to provide that kind of information. Don’t ask me why I know that. They were very polite but very firm on that.

    I started at my club with no interest or any knowledge about air guns and now my wife is asking if I REALLY need another air gun. I guess I’ve been sucked in???

    A great blog with knowledgeable and sharing people. Keep up the good work.
    Mike



    • ML1944,

      As B.B. said,… Welcome. Please post more. When I came here about 1 1/2 years ago, I was as new as the come. That did not stop me from asking (lots) of questions. In doing so, I learned a TON. More important, by asking those questions,… I gained a sense of direction that I wanted to head in and learned a lot about things that were of specific interest to me.

      Chris


  20. GF1,

    Well, the action “shimming” had no effect. It shoots fine and the POI did not change. Groups were no better and no worse. It looks good, so I will leave it. At least the air tube is free floating now (from the air gauge forward). Today’s test was a repeat of last weekend’s testing, so I had good data to compare.

    As for the temp. testing,…. the gun started at 77. Moved outside and temp. rose to 81 in 1/2 hr.. Waited another 1/2 hr. and it rose to 82. The outside temp. at that time was 84. Over the warming, the gun pressure rose 50 psi.

    At least with the test, I did not have to worry about scope/action warm-up (during) shooting.

    That is about it for today,….. more tomorrow and back to the 33.95’s as they seemed to have done better.


    • Chris USA
      Well that’s good news about the stock.

      But you do know that the scope zero will change if you have sunlight or warmth of the scope changing.

      Maybe the days you shot out at a hundred yards you had stable outside temperature’s and a shaded gun. The scope warming or cooling will change poi sometimes depending how drastic the temperature change is.

      Snipers will drape light colored cloths over their scopes and especially the lenses when they’re not shooting. Of course if they are in a place they need to be camafloged they may not be able to use light colored cloths. But the idea is to keep direct heat off the scope if possible.


      • GF1,

        Yes, I did know that,… or at least have read that. Makes perfect sense. ELIMINATE the variables,… or as much as you can.

        Speaking of which,… I have had weight sorted pellets do worse than random picks from the can,… in some cases. This would lead me to believe that head sort may be more important.

        What do you think? How would you rate sorting importance? Weight, Length, and Head Size being the 3 factors. You got a 1,2,3 priority on that? I usually do weight sort first and go from there.

        Still, if you do all 3 in a group,…. you can not blame the pellets then,.. huh?

        As for steady, the compressible pistol grip rest, with the bi-pod,.. makes me feel like I am a world champion,…. it is that steady.


        • Chris USA
          But my guns are shooting good with pellets right out of the tin.

          And this is kind of changing the subject back to your gun. You know you haven’t put a trigger stop on the Mrod yet. I don’t have trigger stops on m guns because I got the triggers adjusted so there may only be .030″ at the most trigger travel after the shot breaks.

          And remember I told you that I had to give a little more trigger pressure adjustment on my .25 Mrod as I increased the tune. You seen how hard my .25 Mrod bumps in the video.

          Have you ever set the gun on the rest or however you set your gun for your shot. But hold your head away from the stock after you placed the gun on target and shoot and watch what your gun does?

          I bet you will be surprised how much you see happen if you watch different parts of your gun.

          I told you I use the trigger to control my gun when I shoot.


          • GF1,

            Talk about a “dodge” on the weight, head, length 1, 2, 3 priority! πŸ˜‰

            Yea, you have said that you control your guns with the trigger adjustments. I have yet to understand that. Then again, I have not played with it much either,.. other than pull weight.

            You got a real (simple) way of explaining that? It seems to work for you, whatever it is that you are doing. And,.. you always mention shot cycle too.

            I may have to play with that some. I did watch the M-rod off shoulder one time. That was to see if I could detect the shroud rising in the barrel band at all,…. which I did not see any movement. Of course by that time I had like 8 oz. of weight in the shroud/baffle area.


            • Chris USA
              Do you remember in the videos I emailed you of my Mrod shooting.

              It very distinctly showed me get on target and shoot. You could see the reticle lift abruptly above the target and come back and rest on the target. All in a split second.

              Well soon as I replayed the video I knew I wanted more shot control. So I increased the trigger pressure adjustment screw. What that did was help reduce the gun bump. And yes with the video I could see those changes better than by just feeling the gun. A scope will detect movement fast. If you can record it and watch replays it’s a big benefit .

              What I do is increase the the trigger pressure till I see the gun bump less. It doesn’t go away but it reduces it. And the trigger is adjusted for hardly any movement after the shot breaks. In other words a trigger stop but I adjusted the trigger that way.

              What happens is you need a certain pressure to make the shot break. If the force continues after the shot breaks and hits a stop it will keep down pressure on the gun. So that way the trigger pressure helps keep the gun in place.

              That’s the best I can explain.


              • GF1,

                Well Sir,…… that was a pretty good explanation!!! πŸ˜‰ I will ponder all of that and give it a try. I have not really paid much attention to the over travel on the M-rod, but from messing with the TX and LGU, it feels good. The LGU was better than the TX, but both were an annoyance and did not feel right. For me, first stage does not matter that much,.. but the break and the over-travel do. I have leaned towards more pull weight as I have progressed.

                For one,… it helps to steady the aim,.. and like you said,… having that quick stop after the break,… helps to continue that steady by holding down pressure.


                • Chris USA
                  You don’t know how long I been waiting for you to tell me that about trigger pull.

                  “For me, first stage does not matter that much,.. but the break and the over-travel do. I have leaned towards more pull weight as I have progressed.”

                  πŸ™‚


                  • GF1,

                    Ooooooohhhhh!!!!,….. your are a cruel master indeed! πŸ˜‰

                    Torture!!!,.. Pure torture I tell ya’.

                    “Da Grazz Hoppa” is signing off. Time to chill and eat and get up early and make some more targets and ponder the day’s shooting curriculum.

                    Cruel,… just plain cruel,…… Chris πŸ˜‰


  21. Zimbabweed
    Ed – I don’t think my M1944 has any preferred range after the barrel bend correction. I think it may have something to do with how the muzzle is held so firmly in place by the front barrel block which keeps the muzzle directly under the iron sight axis. It shoots to where the sights are pointed windage wise regardless of distance. I left the bayonet on the gun as I prefer a little more weight on the muzzle and I shoot with it extended.The extra weight amplified by having the bayonet extended seems to dampen the muzzle shakes (caused by me) and settle the gun down a bit more.
    FYI did you know that the original Mosin Nagent 91\30 was zeroed in with the fixed bayonet in place. I own a real 91/30 and because it is such a bear to shoot with the 7.62×54 machine gun cartridge, its heavy military trigger and last but not least the horrendous recoil I can’t say it shoots any better with or without the fixed bayonet in place. The M1944 is just a cut down version of the 91/30 with a folding bayonet and I have been unable to find out what the bayonet placement was for zeroeing.
    That’s it except for one final comment. You said it would be nice to correct that way for different BB’s. I have found that Daisy Avanti Ground Shot is the only BB to use – in my gun anyways. Ground shot gives me 1/2 to 5/8 inch groups at 10M and all the other BB’s that I have tried – even Daisy Premium Grade, are all in the 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch or larger group size.
    Wouldn’t it be nice to see Gletcher continue on with these replica rifles in something like a 1903 Springfield sniper or a Kar98 sniper configuration with period correct scope. If they ever did or do so I will be one of the first in line!!!
    Cheers
    Dave


    • I’ve had very good luck with Umarex BB’s. Put a drop of Pelgun oil on your thumb and forefinger and lightly rub it on each BB as you load it.
      I’ve shot very good groups from a 760 and other smoothbores that way.
      Fido3030


  22. Ok going to show my ignorance in pistol shooting again.

    I’m going to try to explain this the best I can. First I’ll start with a pcp gun. I can pull the bolt back on my Mrod and hold back on it with pretty good pressure. Then pull the trigger while still holding the bolt. Then I can ease of the bolt and uncock the gun.

    And if somebody doesn’t understand what I mean then don’t try it. Because if you don’t do it right the shot can go off and a pellet can remain in the barrel. In other words kids don’t try this at home without knowledgeable adult supervision.

    So now I ask how did those bad guys in the western movies shoot revolvers fast action by racking the hammer. If they held the trigger how did the barrel advance for the next shot. I thought the trigger mechanism advances the drum not the hammer????

    Seriously what am I miss’n?



    • In a single action the “hand” is attached to the hammer. Double action revolvers might have it on either trigger or hammer. I used to do cowboy action shooting and some of the shooters run single actions like they’re full auto.
      BTW a single action Colt once actually went full auto. The pointed firing pin on the hammer pierced the primer. Escaping gas blew the hammer back which revolved tge cylinder. Since the trigger was still back the hammer fell and the cycle repeated until the gun was empty. Strange but true.
      Fido3030


      • Fido3030
        That’s what I wondered. So a good revolver for action shooting would be a one that rotates the drum or cylinder by the hammer and not the trigger.

        Man I got a lot of home work to do to see how these revolvers operate.

        And I like slide pistols but just always wondered about revolver hammer shooting.

        Now I wonder why I never got into pistols. My brother always tryed to get me hooked.


        • GF1

          If you ever look at powder burner SA revolvers a ruger single six or single ten are pretty cool ones to play with. The stock sights don’t do it justice though. But you can buy vasquero sights for it. U can Google search to find part numbers from ruger and a front bead from brownells. I haven’t got around to doing it on mine yet.

          I have some jsb 10.34 in my cart. I haven’t ordered because I may be leaving my job. Won’t bore u with details. πŸ™‚

          Had the 36 out and my h&n pellet sampler. I was shooting the silver points and was really laying down the law. Haha. I shot from my lawn chair and was surprised with how much better I was doing with it. The little 30 has taught me a thing or two?


          • PH
            I just started getting kind of serious about firearm pistols. I want something for home defense and to be able to target practice with and maybe to carry. So I’m asking questions about hand guns. Would like to get a air pistol first that represents the firearm pistol I decide on.

            And you know I’m going to ask this. At what distance was you shooting. And in one sentence you said 36 then at the end you said 30. Two different guns you were shooting? And you know shooting results change with certain pellet designs as distance increases.


            • Gunfun1
              If you’re looking for a home defense gun, I suggest a Smith &Wesson .38 Special revolver with a 4 or 5 inch barrel. This is what police used to use before they went to semi-automatics so they are widely available used in well-maintained condition. They are superb quality, last forever, are very easy to learn to shoot with low power ammunition and, unlike a semi automatic need very little maintenance. Open the cylinder and put a good padlock through the frame and another through a cartridge hole and they’re as safe as a firearm can be for storage if that’s a concern.
              Fido3030


              • Fido3030
                I’m leaning towards a revolver when I do finally purchase the firearm pistol.

                Matter of fact the Taurus Judge that shoots the .45 caliber bullet or .410 shot gun shell.

                I think I will use the .410 shells for home defense. And the .45 bullets for target practice.

                My thinking on the shot gun shell will be that I don’t have to worry about what’s on the other side of the bad guy. With a bullet you have to worry about pass through. Basically I don’t want to hit something I’m not suppose to.


                • GF1

                  Yeah the Taurus judge is a pretty cool customer. I agree with you on the shot shell. The .45 colt is good for target practice as most factory ammo is fairly moderately loaded (for older firearms). Maybe you will get started on hand loading? πŸ˜‰

                  I really like the idea of a judge. The only thing I’m not sure of is how good accuracy will be at distance with the 45. I know the rifling is an interesting compromise for both kinds of ammo. But if you end up with one I know you will have all the details. πŸ˜‰


                  • PH
                    My brother is a pistol shooter. He hand loads. So I could go to his house and start loading if I want.

                    And I think the shot gun shells in the Taurus Judge would work great indoors in a house. You would be lucky to be shooting over 15 yards I’m thinking.

                    And I think target practice on life size bad guy silhouettes with the 45 caliber bullets would be good out at 30-40 yards.

                    I still want to look into more pistols though. But I like the idea of the Taurus. Heck you could load a shot gun shell then a bullet next. So you could have a shot gun blast then a bullet to back it up if there running away.


                    • GF1,

                      Not sure about gun laws, but I think you are not allowed to shoot again if they are running away. There is a show on the Pursuit channel that reviews (just that). It re-enacts (actual) events that have happened and goes through the pro’s and con’s of each situation. Depending on the laws, situation and events,…. you can find yourself in a place that you do not want to be.


                    • GF1

                      I again agree with that logic. I always consider different orders when thinking of a judge. Maybe even two different shotgun loads in a certain order. (I saw u mentioned that to Fido 3030 already) I would think with practice one could leave the gun ready with the right order in place. I don’t remember the chamber size. Idk if it will chamber 3″ 410 shells. If it will that may open up more options.

                      Like what Fido3030 said the smaller shot is a fine line of performance. Your distance is the most important variable. If your going to handload then u can tailor a defensive 45 round that will perform more closely to the way you would want.

                      Thats a huge bonus that your brother hand loads. That way you can cook up a few recipes and see what projectile weights/speeds and powder/pressures (way over simplified) give u good accuracy at that distance.

                      If I every go that route it will likely be a revolver in 357/38 or 327 federal/32 h&R mag. Maybe similar to B.B.s new one. I like the judge but I personally believe in a small shotgun and handgun combo. Impractical? Probably. But confidence can go a long ways. Hopefully if I buy one it will always be for fun. πŸ™‚


                  • PH
                    If I buy the Judge it’s going to be a multi purpose gun.

                    And hopefully will only be used for recreation. But to much to discuss about that here. Them types of situations are unique to theirselfs. But it’s nice to be prepared and aware.


                • GF1,

                  I see an ulterior motive working here,…. versatile home defense and practice weapon, yet too big for a carry. Hence, the need for a second pistol. Sneaky,… very sneaky! πŸ˜‰


                  • Chris USA
                    Carry would be the secondary job for the gun with home defense and target practice the primary job of the pistol.

                    And I have shot my brothers Taurus Judge. They are not overly big.


                  • Chris USA
                    You mentioned above about the law and shooting when someone is running away.

                    Could be true but like I said to Fido3030 above. To many things that is involved with this topic to discuss here.

                    Short and simple. Be aware of what’s around you if your in a home defense or carry situation and know the laws.


                  • Chris USA

                    Thats more like my logic! Something big and heavy (scary and intimidating looking could be good as well πŸ™‚ ) for home and something sleek for carry. Means another gun and more practicing! πŸ™‚


                    • PH,

                      Yea,…. something James Bond(ish). Or Clint Eastwood?,… then again,…. his choices are rather obvious and big.

                      Of course,… while you are “plotting” all of this, you got to get it by the “little woman” first! πŸ˜‰ ,Chris


                • Gunfun1
                  Suggest you check on-line for velocity and penetration tests for the Judge. Birdshot, even #4 is ineffective. Buckshot in
                  Shells designed for pistols may be ok in 6 inch barrels but really iffy in short barrels. Even .45 Colt rounds are kind of marginal because they have to pass through the long chamber designed for the .410 shells.
                  With either buckshot or .45 Colt you still have to worry about what’s behind your target. In my humble opinion the Judge sounds good on paper but doesn’t stand up to real world tests very well. It really needs a 10+ inch barrel.
                  I have a single barrel .410 shotgun with an 18+ inch barrel loaded with buckshot near my chair right now in case of a surprise home-invasion. The idea is fire a shot and run for the .38. But that’s a long barrel. Buy two of those, tape them side by side and you’ll have a cheap double barrel. (it works–a Fido Special!)
                  Fido3030


                  • Fido3030
                    I have e shot my brothers Judge with .410 bird shot and home defense counsel shells also.

                    The bird shot shells would probably be good out to 20 yards from what I seen. The home defense round wih the discs and bigger shot is good out to about 30 yards I would say.

                    And like I mentioned above you could alternate shot shells and bullets every other one in the cylinder when you load up. You could even through in a bird shot round and a home defense counsel shot gun round then a bullet. So you could set the gun up for a close shot gun blast then a home defense shot shell for a longer distance and then a bullet. That would give you a pretty versatile pistol in my opinion.


                  • Fido3030
                    Had 1/2″ particle board backers to hold cardboard target silhouettes at 15, 20 and 30 yards.

                    Bird shot shells passed through at 20 yards but stuck in particle board at 30 yards. Home defense shot shells passed through at 30 yards.


                    • GF
                      The FBI recommends 12 inches of penetration in 10% ballistic gellatin covered with a layer of denim to be effective.
                      A 410 Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 with 3 discs and 12 BBs was tested. The discs penetrated 7.5, 7.5, and 8.5 inches; the BB’s averaged 4.5 inches at 10 yards.
                      A buckshot load will give satisfactory penetration for only the first pellet. The others are flattened into disc shape by the recoil.
                      If there’s sufficient reason for you shoot someone the bullet(s) have to penetrate enough to reach vital organs in order to stop the person.
                      Sorry, it’s Unpleasant to think about but necessary.
                      Hope you never need to find out
                      Fido3030


                  • Fido3030
                    Good points. But sure would hate to have a bullet pass through and hit someone in another room.

                    Or even worse have a pass through with a bullet in a carry situation.

                    We can get to involved on this subject for the space and time available here. But main thing is to be aware.


                    • GF1
                      Agree. Owning a self-defense gun that might be used is an awesome responsibility and deserves much thought. i’ve done a lot of research, both academic and shooting and I highly recommend a book “In the Gravest Extreme” by Massad Ayoob, a famous American police firearms instructor. He covers all aspects of this subject in a non-hysterical, practical book, including many that are not obvious.
                      Fido3030



            • GF1

              I hear ya. Those are a good blend of reasons. The little ruger rimfires definitely aren’t self defense measures IMO. Have you considered any particular chambering or action?

              Haha! Yes I was counting on it! πŸ™‚ I have made a few observations. I shot a fence post 24 yards out to confirm what I already knew. The pellets fit very tight and the weight 11.5+ grains. They penetrated half to 2/3 of the length of the pellet into the post. The poi was considerably lower than the poa, couple inches.

              I inspected the skirts of the pellets sticking out of the post and saw very deep cuts in them from the rifling. So between the friction and the sheer weight 11.5 grain. Ill Prolly never get a good feel for accuracy with them in the 36. Although I feel like most pellets are inferior to domes at long range. One of the most prevelant exception would be a barracuda/Kodiak.

              I had a weird feeling when I had a 1liter water bottle out there jumping around pretty good after I shot it. I had a feeling the pellets weren’t passing through. Which they weren’t. That was at about 18 yards.

              I was mostly worried about shooting the 36 with out a rest and hitting something. My brothers and I were grilling and the sun was getting low. We we’re just having fun and maybe I was enjoying “rubbing it in” on my brothers that I could kinda prove that these guns could do what I say they could. You should have seen they’re reaction to me rolling a Crosman powerlet under the soft pine tree with no grass. (Right around 15yds) I only wish I was better… one day πŸ˜‰

              Yep I was talking bout the Diana and how the weirauch maybe taught me a thing or two about shooting. Helping me with the Diana that is. I picked the Diana up and couldn’t believe how that heavy gun just hung out there still. The gun is steadier and my basic form is better so i could focus on my “artillery hold” I picked the hw30 back up and it was wobbly for a second. It was interesting to shoot both of those guns in one session. Switching from cocking one to the other always surprised me as well. πŸ™‚ I’m decently strong so I can shoot the 36 all day. But it was still weird back and forth. πŸ™‚


              • PH
                I just left a reply above yours to Fido3030 about the pistol I was thinking about. Probably the Taurus Judge that shoots the .410 shot gun shells or the .45 caliber bullets.

                And I wish I would of got me a hw30 just for the reason of cocking. I’ll tell you those light cocking guns will spoil ya.


                • GF1

                  Almost missed this one. Yeah after switching back I felt like all I was doing was moving the barrel to cock it. Its so sweet and easy. That and shooting several pellets decently enough for me has me super spoiled. Too bad your getting geared up for pistols a hw30 may round out you long gun herd. Jp πŸ™‚


                  • PH
                    Time to learn pistols now I believe. Bet I had over 200 air guns of different types and power plants. So done been round the block so to speak with air gun rifles.

                    I got 4 air gun rifles that are my keepers now. They are the ones that ain’t left the stable if you know what I mean.

                    So what’s your next air gun? πŸ˜‰


                    • GF1

                      Well that’s a super tough question. I have a short list that’s not really all that short. Lol and it’s really two one for pistols and the other for rifles.

                      Pistols
                      P1, hw75, hw70 (looks) possibly 2300t or s. (Crosman) I am watching all the new pellet semi autos as well. Berreta sig and colt all have offerings I’m watching.

                      Rifles. (Realistically)
                      I love the walther lever action 1894. I love every thing air arms makes especially the 200t and the tx200mkIII. An MROD is definitely in there(or a bone stock armada) an airforce offering is in there maybe talon? and believe it or not the Diana 430 mag is too. I really want a mid powered underlever. I find the tx potentially too big and powerful. I love Dianas sidelevers as well but they are heavy and powerful as well. I need to handle them all to give my dreams substance!

                      The P1 has been haunting my dreams lately. I’m just afraid I’ll never shoot it well enough. Same with other springers. Especially the beeman R series.
                      I’m keeping the qb79 repeater in mind but I’m not sure about fit and finish. I’m instantly a snob about that these days… haha.

                      I really have too many to count that I wanna try but I know I want a higher quality pistol than my p17 (which I love) an underlever, walther 94 and a pcp.

                      So I guess I should have said all of them could be next. πŸ™‚


                  • PH
                    Let’s go this way.

                    When money’s tight and your going to get a air gun that you will shoot anytime you get a chance. What would it be?

                    And no you can’t count the hw30. You already got that one? πŸ˜‰


                    • GF1

                      OK if money was tight. (Usually is until I slowly save and then have some big weeks. Like with the hw30)

                      This is tougher. A gun that I can shoot anytime means I can shoot inside as well as outside for me.I love accuracy over power and ability to repeatedly fling lead down range.I don’t buy low quality AG’s anymore, have enough. I want heirloom pieces that will last generations with proper care.

                      All that said I would probably buy a Dan Wesson or Smith 586 or colt peacemaker pellet version. I used to love just sitting around with my ruger holding it and working it. I would clean it oil it and admire it.

                      If I couldn’t afford them then I would wait. I waited 2+ years before I finally bought my hw30s. I had other favorites circling around which is why I also bought the Diana 36.
                      I spent a long time wishing my hatsan 95 was a Diana. πŸ˜‰


                  • PH
                    How about a FWB 300.

                    Easy to cock, very smooth shooting with their slide action. Adequate power for outside shooting and tame enough for indoors.

                    Put a bug buster scope on one and they are killer guns.

                    And they can be modded.

                    But I think you might like pistols more than rifles.


                    • GF1

                      The only reason I would choose a pistol is because I feel that my interests have eliminated most guns close to what the hw30 can do. I am definitely a rifle guy. That sounds like a really cool setup. About how much do the fwb 300s go for?



        • Gf1, this page has some animations that show how many guns work.
          It will give you a idea of how a single action works, and a double action.

          While not the same as modern revolvers, you will get the idea of how a hammer cocking pistol differs from a trigger cocking one.
          http://m.imgur.com/gallery/q3Hq5

          The second one is of a double action victory revolver, (like a more modern Smith & Wesson revolver)

          http://candrsenal.com/pistol-u-s-victory-revolver/


    • GF1,

      The barrel doesn’t advance. It remains stationary. The cylinder (you called it the drum) is rotated by cocking the hammer back. The trigger does just one thing in a single action revolver. It releases the sear. If it is held back, the cylinder advances when the thumb cocks the hammer, aligning a fresh cartridge, and the thumb slips off the back of the hammer, letting it slam forward to hit the primer.

      B.B.


      • BB
        I meant drum or cylinder in this sentence not barrel. My bad.

        “If they held the trigger how did the (barrel) advance for the next shot.”

        And ok so the hammer make the cylinder rotate. And it needs to be a single action only trigger to be able to rapid fire the gun. Right? And will a double action trigger on a firearm pistol rotate the cylinder when the hammer is cocked also?

        Here is what made ask about all this. The Brodax does advance the cylinder when I pull the hammer back. Then when I pull the trigger back and make the shot go off and keep the trigger held back the hammer won’t advance the trigger till I let off the trigger. That little arm that advances the cylinder stays out until I let off the trigger.

        So the Brodax is a double action trigger and it won’t advance the cylinder if the trigger is held and the hammer racked repeatedly. I guess that’s a safety built in the Brodax so it can’t be used that way. Or is it because it’s double action?

        The reason I want to know is that if somebody is buying a air pistol to practice that kind of shooting instead of using their firearm pistol to save their bullets that are way more expensive. How would they know what type of trigger action would they look for in a air pistol revolver?

        Answer when you but I would like to know for a future purchase.


        • Gf1,

          I just tried the Brodax and found you are right. It has a novel action I have never seen before. The trigger is both single and double action but the hand doesn’t move until the trigger is released after being pulled.

          What of it, though? Nobody would use a double action revolver for CAS unless it was a period piece like a Schofield or a Colt Thunderer. I don’t understand the concern. And I assume you mean Cowboy Action Shooting when you say “…that kind of shooting…”.

          B.B.


  23. Redrafter– From what I have read, the MN1944 was zeroed with the bayonet extended. I have 4 MMN,s. 2 are 1891,s. the early one is dated 1898. It has Had its muzzle re-bored, but it can group into 2″ at 100 yds. The next one is a Finnish m39. The last one is my favorite. The receiver is dated 1918 and has the Tsars crest. T he barrel is dated 1922 and has the Communist crest. It was made as a dragoon, but 91-30 sights were added later. It will group 3″ or less. With regard to recoil, I am lucky. I am able to tolerate it rather well. I have (and shoot) 2 .458,s ,one .374 H&H. A .338, 2 300 Win mag,s etc. Also a Marlin 45-70. I find the MN rifles to be on the mild side, re recoil. I am anticipating more accurate bb,s from other companies so I want an easy way to re-zero my “44” in case they decide to compete with Avanti. Ed


  24. Fido3030
    That’s an interesting concept – oiling BB’s. I’ve never tried that. I wonder if the oil film increases the BB size enough to match the size of the bigger Avanti Ground Shot and the subarctic blast of co2 keeps the now congealed Pellgun oil film in place for a while as it travels thru the barrel.
    The idea doesn’t appeal to though, me as I have been severely rapped on the knuckles by a cocking lever slipping from oily fingers. Ever since I make sure my hands are clean before shooting.
    Cheers
    Dave


    • Redrafter,

      The oiling of the bb’s does work. I use a cheap foam sponge saturated lightly with a fine, low viscosity oil, laid into a small container. I cut a little depression in the top and the bb’s go there. Roll ’em around a bit. I pick one up at a time and drop it down the 499 muzzle. I keep an old t-shirt nearby to wipe the 2 finger tips on. No problem.

      The lighter the viscosity the better. If you do not like it, you can a run a pipe cleaner down the barrel to clean it. These days, they are called “fuzzy sticks” though.


  25. Zimbabweed
    Ed – Nice to talk to someone with 91/30 experience. I have only had mine for a few years and maybe 600 rounds but have always thought it a beast to shoot. I have my grandfathers .303 Lee Ross Sporter hunting rifle from the early part of the last century (with the warning on the receiver not to use black powder) which I feel does not have anywhere near the recoil of the 91/30. It uses standard .303 rounds available everywhere. Just checked this evening and the 91/30 rounds I’m useing have the red shellac coating on the primer and a thin red shellac stripe on the neck of the bullet where it meets the shell. The shells are also made from steel (magnetic), not brass. It’s hard to get info on this surplus ammo but what I’ve found so far seems to indicate that these shells are for light ground MG’s as well. Maybe they are a little hotter than standard 91/30 ammo. I’m very interested in hearing what you have to say about all this.
    Cheers
    Dave


  26. Redrafter– Re the 91 experience–dittos. The .303 is not as powerful as the 7.62×54 round. If you shoot the pattern 1914 .303 side by side with our 1917 in 30-06, you will see a difference. The same thing occurs when shooting the .303 SMLE and the Indian version in .308. Compare the stocks, I am sure that your sporter has a better designed pistol grip compared to the 1891 stock. Stock fit can make a rifle a pussycat, or a wild cat. I am confused re Lee Ross. I have seen Ross straight pull sporters ( in .280 Ross) and a variety of Lee sporters . One was marked Lee Speed, and it was in .303 cal. Can you give me more information re your grandfathers rifle? PS– My .375 H&H Mark X is in a Bell and Carlson stock and weighs 9@ lbs. In Africa, my guide had a .375 Musgrave, wood stock , 11@ lbs. When we fired them with the same ammo, my rifle was comfortable, and his kicked like a mule ! When I got my Ruger .338 win mag (Ruger synthetic stock) I could not shoot more than 10-15 rounds because of the kick. I replaced the stock with another Bell @ Carlson , and I can shoot 50-75 rounds without any problem. 60 @ years ago I took a friend to the range and gave him my .30 cal m1 carbine. After 20 rounds he had to stop, he had a bruised shoulder and cheek. My son started shooting centerfire rifles with this carbine , age 8, no bruises, no complaint re recoil. The ability to absorb recoil varies from person to person, and the gunstock design and fit. There are many stories (and photos) of petite women shooting the big rifles in Africa. Ed


  27. 70 and 100 yd. testing, .25 M-rod, 33.95’s,……

    Today’s test consisted of two 70 yard targets with 3 bulls each. #1 got weight sorted pellets, #2 bull got head sorted pellets and #3 got weight sorted pellets. Repeated.

    Results were inconclusive as I had fliers off and on. I did keep most pellets within 1 1/4″ or less.

    Next up was the 100. #1 bull got head sorted and #2 got weight sorted. Again flyers, but kept 6 of 8 at 2 1/16″ and 1 3/4″ respectively.

    Despite a Chipmunk running left and right at my 80 and 90 yard markers at least a dozen times, I learned a thing or two about sunshades. Very sunny, but shooting in the shade, I found that a homemade 6″ sunshade in the front did little to improve sight picture. However, on the rear lens, a 2″ sun shade was perfect. It reduced the ambient light coming in from the eye relief, which allowed my pupil to dilate, and I was able to see the target better. I will play with this more.

    Also, on targets, I make my own. I have gone through several versions. My 40 -100 yards is into dark woods. I have found that black bulls and rings drawn with a heavy marker, on white paper, work great. I use a lighted reticle when going deep, but the size of the ring and bull can be a big help. On a mil-dot scope, the dot can be placed perfect. If going at a half mil-dot, the dash can be placed perfect. Depending on the sight picture and the size of the ring, you can do 1/4 and 3/4 dot hold overs by “bracketing” the dash and the dot.

    At any rate, that was my shooting day. Too darn hot out there now.


    • Chris USA
      Told you that target circle diameter matching the mildot at different distances works. That’s how I get the good 100 yard groups.

      And yep remember the conversation about getting some sunglasses and keep your eyes dilated. I also where a cap with a bill. That helps shade the eye’s. I also sometimes cup my off hand over the eye piece when I shoot.

      The field target guys use a rubber type deal that slips over the eye piece on the scope. It’s cup shaped to fit over your eye and fit your cheek. So you don’t see no outside light to your shooting eye. I haven’t got one because I shoot with my prescription glasses so I never looked into getting one. I’ll see if I can search and find what I’m talking about. I’ll post a link if I find it.


    • Chris USA

      Ran out of room jumped down here. Good shooting BTW.

      Haha! Yes you totally hit the nail on the head. Clint Eastwood is one of my favorite all time actors. I do an impression of him that is absolutely horrible. Besides I might need to hammer in a nail around the house ya know?

      On the sleek side you again have said it perfectly. I always really liked Roger Moore… I thought he was a good fit for a ppk. Although I don’t think he’s my all time favorite. Not to start a bond war here! Lol

      Good thing about another pistol is it will go in my small safe not in the gun case. She probably won’t notice. If for no other reason than I am too cautious to shoot firearms on my property anymore(rented). I would have to travel to shoot it and she may never see it. I’m getting old jk.


      • PH,

        Thanks for the compliment on the groups. GF1 is the one to beat on shooting though. Under 2″ @ 100 yds.,…. and I am happy. The test today pitted weighed VS head sorted,….. still had fliers. My rest is insane steady,… so it was not me,…. ok,… maybe 1% me. I may have to resort to head AND weigh sorting. Heck,… I will wave incense over them and bless them if it works,….. πŸ˜‰

        Bond?,…… Pierce Brosnan is pretty tuff to beat. Moore was good, but that was “back in the day”.

        Just to be sure,…. you did say that you had a Talon SS on the way?


        • Chris USA

          I WISH! lol that was definitely on a dream list.

          I liked Sean and Roger. But at my age Pierce was the man when I was young. He is definitely my favorite. Roger may be my second but it’s not because I think he is the second best. I didn’t think he was tough or especially suave. I just thought maybe his smarts showed through well, especially for “back in the day”. Hard to explain especially since I haven’t had a bond-a-thon in forever. Lol Pierce was on one of my all time favorite video games. (You could barely tell it was him with the graphics) Goldeneye for nintendo 64. I also watched “the world is not enough” in theaters. It had Denise Richards in it. Enough said. πŸ˜‰ Goldeneye the movie is still my favorite. Its the first one I ever saw.

          Pellet sorting looks to be an art/science. I could tell between your exchange with GF1 that sorting will be up to you. You will learn “strong magic” Lol


          • PH,

            Sorry on the Talon. Perhaps it was someone else. You never know, you may end up with one someday. As for the sorting, the basic idea is to eliminate variables. In doing so, then when you have a bad group, you will know at least it was not the pellet. “Strong Magic”,….. LOL,…. I like that! πŸ˜‰


  28. In a recent post I mentioned that the Russian army is trained to use their Mosin Nagant rifles as nutcrackers. I expected to be deluged with requests to describe this seemingly impossible maneuver. I have decided to answer your questions before you ask them, to spare this blog a plethora of requests. I own a rare Russian training manual, which has been translated for me by a former cross-eyed, cantankerous, communist commissar, who is now living in a cave in the catskills (although he comes out to gun shows). I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of his translation, although it is possible that he added some comments of his own. 1) )Get a nut. This is the hardest part of the maneuver, nuts being scarce. It will probably cost you your copy of Pushkin and the family samovar. At least, you will have more room in your backpack. 2) Place nut on the ground. Try to find a firm hard place or a rock. Do NOT place on mud. Any attempt to crack a nut on mud will only drive it so deep that you will loose it ( and the rifle as well). You will also spatter mud onto your comrades uniforms. Of course, they are already covered in mud, but now they will blame you! 3) Place legs on each side of the nut as wide apart as you can without splitting your magnificent state issued breeches. 4)Hold rifle (with bayonet fixed in place) with both hands on the upper forestock Look up, raise rifle as if praying. This is a good time to pray to your favorite saint, the commissars wont notice. 5) Bring the rifle down with tremendous force. If your aim is good, you will hit the nut and not your foot. 6)Quickly reverse the rifle to the bayonet charge position and chase your hungry comrades away. This is the Russian army, you are probably the only soldier with a rifle. The rest of your unit just follows you in case you get killed, so that they cap pick up your rifle. 7)Bend down and separate pieces of nut from fragments of the shell, splinters of wood , rust shards, assort rd screws and rifle parts. 8)Eat the nut. Do not eat the bits of shell and wood splinters unless you are starving (which you probably are). 9)March off humming (or whistling ) tunes from Tchaikovsky Nutcracker suite. 10)Look for Germans to shoot (if you have been issued ammo) or better yet, look for another nut. I hope that you have enjoyed this lengthy but rare inside look into one of the best kept secrets of the Russian army. Ed



  29. Chris @ etc—-For several years I have been hoping that Mel Brooks or Jackie Mason would get the air gun bug and join us. But until then, you will just have to put up with BB and the rest of us home grown humorists. Ed


  30. PH
    That’s a good question about the 300’s. Depends on what shape their in and who you get them from. Some people will make you deals. Some will try to sell them for a arm and a leg. Oh and just cause their old don’t let that worry you. They are well made quality German guns and parts are still available.

    I seen them from $250 up to $1000. But most sell in the $350 to $600 range.

    And I have hot rodded a couple. Buldawgs got two of mine. Maybe he will sell you one if you ask.

    And once you feel the trigger on one and how much adjustability the trigger has and feel how smooth they shoot it’s hard to find a better springer. If you was to get one you won’t be disappointed.


    • GF1

      I have heard tale of how unbelievable these guns are. I always thought they would be as pricey as a fwb124 so I just figured it was out of reach. I have been constantly dissapointed in the firearms world of trying to get a good deal on older desirable firearms. Even a Winchester 94 eluded me. I never could pay a premium for something I couldn’t shoot as much as I have found I can shoot AGs. I searched for fwb300 on the internet and ran across an old slavia zvp pistol. It looks exactly how I like my spring pistols. I may watch it for awhile. I also saw a wood gripped hw70 at a very seemingly decent price.

      As far as the fwb goes I would love it. Even as a lefty I would make it work. I may politely inquire about it. I don’t want to insult buldawg. I will wait for a little bit and see how my finances go.


      • PH
        But see. You keep bringing up pistols.

        Do you really want a rifle?

        But what is nice about air guns is be it a rifle or pistol. Nice shooters can be attained. And they are cheaper to shoot than a firearm.


        • GF1

          Haha maybe I do sound confusing. Ill let you into my head for a second.

          Rifles are serious pistols are for play. Rifles cost serious money and for that I have serious expectations. Pistols are paid for for their looks and are easy spontaneous fun. I will always shoot a rifle better even on my worst rifle day versus my pistol day. Rifles are a constant and pistols are a variable to me. I like rifles more but pistols are so appealing to me. I will spend big bucks on a rifle but I would have a heck of a time buying that p1 I want so bad. I read one time that a pistol is what you use until you can get your hands on a rifle. The context is much different than I intend it but I value the thought the same. The pistols I’m looking at are just over $100 dollars. I don’t expect much at that price. I only expect them to last.



            • GF1

              Haha. Surrounded by air guns and nephews and maybe a niece that can’t wait to shoot with uncle whiskers. Then my brothers would get sucked in and next thing you know nothing but empty tins and tired arms. πŸ˜‰ in all seriousness possessions aren’t everything but they might liven up the family time. πŸ™‚ I know you’re a guy who understands what I’m talking about.


              • PH
                You do have a way with words.

                Yes it’s brought me closer to my family.

                But it started a long time ago when my dad taught me and my brother and his dad and grandpa taught him. And so on.

                Don’t denie your family. Show them this culture. I have with my family.

                Now I let you inside my head a little bit. There’s more to come. πŸ™‚


                • GF1

                  Thank you for that. Life is a strange thing. There is much for one to know. Sometimes it is difficult to know what is important to know. For one reason or another, ya know?

                  I am making the long play with my brothers. I need them and my sister to acknowledge my hobby so that when the little ones are ready they can participate. I would hate if even one of them was denied the great gift of shooting (any kind) the way I was as a child. I am definitely making up for it now though. πŸ˜‰


  31. Final thought for the day,…..

    While doing the 70 yards today,.. just below the target supports was 2 steel cans, 1,…a small mushroom can,… the other was 15 oz., standard can. The 2 cans were supported on sticks I had picked up off the wood’s floor. Even though both targets,… and both cans were ALL at a measured 70 yds.,…. the small can looked like it was 5-10 feet past the larger can. Interesting.

    Oh yeah,…. another tip,… those cans,… with all the holes punched in them,… are perfect for dialing in the adjustable objective. I paint them orange,.. and the silver steel from the pellet hits show up real nice and clear. Plus,.. the cans are good for a few “practice” shots.

    Outa’ here,…. back to work in the AM. ;(


    • Chris USA
      Depth perception is what that’s called.

      That’s why it’s important to range find at high magnification with a scope then turn down to your shooting magnification.

      Also do a search and find out what a mildot on your scope represents at a given magnification.



  32. B.B.
    Your findings on the RWS Hobby pellet are similar to mine. I recently bought the Avanti 747 and have been trying out various pellets. I have an old tin of RWS Hobby pellets dating back to the early 90s. I was surprised to see that they grouped as well (or better) than the higher priced match pellets. A new tin of Hobby pellets shoot just about the same the older pellets.


  33. Okay, I am so far down the comment line that likely no-one will read this but here goes anyway.

    I own a Daisy 853C rifle, and have been using it to shoot the N.R.A. 10 meter range every week for the past two+ years. I can attest to the fact that this rifle is a virtual tack driver. I stopped counting 100’s when I reached thirty, and that was around two hundred or so ago. I made my first several one hundreds with the sights that came with the rifle, but due to a cataract that I had on my right (shooting) eye I had to transform to a scope.

    A couple of us at the range were shooting 100’s (that is ten targets on one sheet hitting the tiny dot in the middle of each of the ten targets) so often that a suggestion was made to count any bulls eye that totally eliminates the tiny dot white dot in the middle as a 10X with a possibility of 100 10X, or if you count the two sighters a possible 100 12X. I have several 100 12X’s with my Daisy 853C.

    Most of us that shoot the range have Daisy 853 or 853C rifles and we all use the R.W.S. Meisterkugln 5.0 grain pellet. We have tried many others but all of the 853 rifles seem to prefer those pellets, and with the way they consistently shoot 100 12X on the 10 meter range with the N.R.A. 10 meter targets I would say these are the best pellets for these rifles.

    I hope this has been of help to someone. Also, some said that the rifle was difficult to work on, but after you have had it apart a couple of times it is a piece of cake. Many of us have modified our triggers done to 1 pound 8 ounces, replaced old seals, etc. and can now nearly do it blind folded. They are easy t work on but, if you need help there are some great how to videos on you tube that will walk you through it step by step.


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