The Beeman R10/HW 85: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

HW 85
Weihrauch HW 85.

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • A word on straight razors
  • History
  • Weihrauch model numbers
  • Enter the R10/HW 85
  • Son of R1
  • Thin spring tube
  • Trigger
  • Description
  • Stock
  • Sights
  • Summary

A word on straight razors

Before we start I have a word on straight razor sharpening. I made a major discovery yesterday morning. It has to do with sharpness, the shape of the blade, how the blade is ground and its applicability to the task at hand. Very similar to airguns and power! It will be in my next report, which will be in a few weeks.

Now, let’s look at the Beeman R10/HW 85.

History

The FWB 124 started the velocity wars in the very early 1970s. But Dr. Beeman invented the rifle he called the R1, that was also produced as the Weihrauch HW 80. That air rifle really broke things open. It came out in 1981. Inside of 18 months Beeman had gotten the muzzle velocity of the .177 R1 from 940 f.p.s. to 1,000 f.p.s. and the race was on! Before we continue, let’s see how they did it.

The R1 was designed on a computer. It wasn’t a CAD-CAM program, because nothing like that existed for spring guns in those days. But it was a modeling program that allowed the modification of certain design parameters like piston size, length of stroke, mainspring strength and so on. With this software it was possible to make changes to these variables and see the results without building anything. Such programs have existed for decades in other disciplines like aerospace, but this was the first time one was used to design an airgun.

They started with the HW 35 as a baseline and modified its parameters until they had what they wanted. Then they gave the specs to Weihrauch to make. Beeman got the rights to North American distribution and Weihrauch took the rest of the world.

Weihrauch model numbers

Weihrauch numbers their spring guns by the length of the piston stroke in millimeters. So the HW 35 has a 35mm stroke and the HW 80 (what Weihrauch calls their version of the R1) stroke is 80 mm. The piston bores are similar. That additional stroke took the rifle from 9.5-11.5 foot-pounds to about 20 foot-pounds. So, yes, it mattered. It mattered a lot!

As it turned out, Beeman probably sold as many R1s in the U.S. as Weihrauch sold HW 80s to the rest of the world. Both models are still being made and sold. But because in most other countries, airgun power is limited by law, it’s harder to sell a powerful airgun. However, velocity does sell everywhere in the world, and by hitting 1,000 f.p.s., Beeman had kicked the anthill!

Enter the R10/HW 85

Beeman enjoyed huge sales for the R1, but when shooters actually held the rifle they were surprised by how large and heavy it is. Of course that meant tremendous potential for power upgrades, and the R1 became the first production air rifle to top 1,200 f.p.s. in the hands of the very capable tuner, Ivan Hancock. But Robert Beeman wanted a smaller, lighter gun that delivered the same power. In 1986 he got his wish fulfilled with the new Beeman R10. Like before, he forged a deal with Weihrauch that gave them the rest of the world to sell what was a very similar rifle — the HW 85. Weihrauch was surprised to discover that British and European shooters also preferred the additional power and the ability to mount a scope — even though they had to jump through certain legal hoops to own the rifle they wanted.

Son of R1

The R10 was a full pound or more lighter than the R1, and the dimensions were smaller in every area. Yet when it first came to market, Beeman advertised it as generating 1020 f.p.s. in .177 when Beeman Laser pellets were used. In the 1989 catalog they called it the “Son of the Beeman R1.” Besides being lighter it was a little easier to cock.

Beeman catalog
This is the first announcement of the R10 in the 1986 Beeman catalog.

The HW 85 came out at the same time, and was available in all other markets. I have to assume that it was equally powerful, because, as long as you are going build an airgun that puts you in the realm where the law gets involved, why hold back anything? Besides, it’s cheaper to make just one gun with different stocks for each model.

Thin spring tube

One thing isn’t obvious when you look at this rifle and that is how thin the spring tube is. But a careful observer will notice that there is a separate scope rail attached to the rear of the tube, where the R1 has the 11mm dovetail scope grooves cut directly into the spring tube.

scope rail
The spring tube is so thin that the scope rail had to be attached separately with screws.

What you can’t see is the threaded end cap. Like the R1 the R10 has a threaded end cap, so the rifle disassembled in exactly the same way. This cap must have caused production problems because of the thin tube. How many tubes were ruined when the threading machine broke through? I don’t know, but I do know that when the R10 went away in 1995, the R9 that followed it used an end cap held in by 4 tabs.

Trigger

Like most top-end Weihrauch rifles the R10/HW 85 has the Rekord trigger. This trigger that is now legendary was an important feature of Weihrauch spring guns. That means the Rekord automatic safety is also present. When the rifle is cocked the spring-loaded safety pin pops out on the left side of the end cap, putting the rifle on safe.

The rifle I am examining is the one I bought from reader David Enoch at the 2017 Texas airgun show. The trigger and safety are both gold-plated because David’s brother, Bryan, tuned this rifle. In fact, it is that tune that I really bought. I can’t wait to start testing it!

Description

The HW 85 I am examining for you is a breakbarrel single shot pellet rifle in .22 caliber. This one is 45-3/4-inches long overall, with a 19-5/8-inch barrel. The stock ends behind the pivot bolt, where the R10 stock went to the end of the base block — another two inches farther. That is the most significant difference between the two models. The rifle weighs 8 pounds on the nose. The weight will vary a little, based on the weight of the wood stock, and this one is on the heavy side. The advertised weight of an R10 is 7.9 lbs.

HW 85 stock end
Weihrauch rifle stocks usually end at the pivot bolt, rather than extending to the end of the base block.

Stock

This wood stock has no checkering, where an R10 would have a checkered pistol grip. It has a Monte Carlo raised comb but no raised cheekpiece that the R10 would have. The wood is beech and finished to a medium dark brown. The butt pad is soft rubber that’s grippy for both your shoulder and when you stand it on its butt.

Sights

Like the R10, the 85 came with an adjustable rear sight and a globe front sight that accepts inserts. The rifle came to me with a squared post up front, but having owned many Weihrauchs over the past 25 years, I have the rest of the inserts.

Summary

That’s the rifle so far. If you are a reader who has been with me for any time you know this is a very special airgun. I bought it for the incredible tune. I can’t wait to test it for you — and me!

130 thoughts on “The Beeman R10/HW 85: Part 1

  1. B.B.

    Does the HW 85 also have an 80mm stoke? I assume the bore of the HW 85 is the same 26mm bore as the HW95/R9.
    How old is the hw85? Is it the same as the HW 85 still available in Europe; or did they change it like the HW 50?

    thanks,

    Yogi





          • Michael,

            This is the first time I hear of “Weihrauch formula”. The HW 30 does not have either a bore or stroke of 30mm. The HW 95 does not have a stroke of 95mm. The HW 97 does not either…
            What are you talking about?

            -Y


            • Yogi,

              From the fifth paragraph above: “Weihrauch numbers their spring guns by the length of the piston stroke in millimeters. So the HW 35 has a 35mm stroke and the HW 80 (what Weihrauch calls their version of the R1) stroke is 80 mm.” — Tom Gaylord/B.B. Pelletier

              The number in the model number signifies the length of the stroke (except for the HW110, which is a pcp ;^).

              Perhaps the number signifies centimeters, not millimeters, but yep, the stroke length is right there in the model number.

              Michael


    • Permanent the absent shooter to interfere with a question. I’m still sick from cancer and a kisdnet transplant, but very slowly I’m getting back the zest to shoot again. I saw something intriguing since my best rifle remains a CO2 gun when it’s Sunday and the gun stores are closed, you might well have a new CO2 tank for your SodaStream.

      Is there any set I’d fixtures and hardware that would let me fill a rifle cylinder with a SodaStream canister?

      Cheers to all.

      Pete Zimmerman


  2. BB,

    Oh yeah, I’m drooling now. I would be willing to build a spare bedroom at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns for that beauty.

    This will be a good Friday post. Nice subject for the weekend.



  3. Off topic.
    Just finished reading Tom”‘s “BB Guns Remembered” that I purchased at the 2017 Texas Airgun Show. If you haven’t read his book, do so. Stirs up memories of childhood and is a very entertaining book. Well worth the read. And no, Tom didn’t pay me to say this.


  4. BB,

    “Weihrauch numbers their spring guns by the length of the piston stroke in millimeters.”

    So the HW77 has a 77mm piston stroke and the HW97 has a 97mm piston stroke? Ich don’t think so!

    I recall reading somewhere that the HW35 has a piston stroke length of 65mm, not 35mm. There must be some other reason for the Weihrauch numbering convention.

    I am curious as to why the HW85 has never been a better seller. It appears to be a long-barrelled HW95, but with slightly inferior accuracy, judging from an old review in a British airgun magazine. It can be had for considerably less than a HW95 in Europe to this day.


    • Bob,

      Good call. When I wrote that it didn’t sound right to me. That’s what has been said in the airgun community for years and I didn’t bother to check it out.

      But I do think the 35 has a shorter stroke than 65mm. And the longer stroke was what made the R1 as powerful as it is.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        I think you were indeed correct, although it might be centimeters, not millimeters. I have read this before from some other source. You are either correct or it is one heckuva myth.

        Michael


      • B.B.,

        I have read more than once that the great thing about the HW35 is it’s short stroke, which makes it relatively easy to cock and gives it a quick cycle (hence in theory a smoother shot).

        Michael



          • B.B.,

            If the 35, 80, and 95 are the length in millimeters, then it is entirely plausible, probable, even, that it is also true of the HW 25, HW 30 and HW 50.

            B.B., can you imagine what an awesome plinker the HW 25 could have been if it only had the Rekord trigger?

            It does seem to require more effort to pull the trigger of an HW 25 than it takes to cock it, and I am being completely serious. To cock it, nine pounds but with a trigger pull of 12 pounds? I would believe that.

            Michael



  5. RR

    This is really for those new to shooting any rifles. The advantage of the global sights with inserts on Weihrauch guns is the improved sight picture. More precise aiming is attained depending on type target, target distance and insert used. Taking it a step further, if a peep sight is mounted on the dovetail rails, old eyes like mine can actually bring the front sight into focus. It works that way for me anyway.

    Decksniper


  6. That’s a handsome rifle. The front stock bolts look like the beeman upgraded ones.
    Are these models pretty scarce in the US?
    I always thought the HW35 referred to the bore diameter of 35mm.


  7. I am having a difficult time getting through to Pyramyd’s customer service. an anyone give me advice? Here’s the story. I ordered an LGU 177 in May. It didn’t arrive until the end of July and then it started buzzing like crazy and BB suspected it was a bent mainspring.

    I sent it back and they replaced it with a 12 fpe gun instead of the 16fpe version it was supposed to be. I sent that back and asked them to test the next one before sending it out. They didn’t and the next gun they sent out was a 13 fpe gun. It was now September, the summer was gone was gone and I still didn’t have the gun.

    I called up and the rep said he would send an email with options for me. That was three weeks ago and in that time I have spent hours on hold with no help at all. The other reps keep referring me to him but he won’t answer my calls or return my messages. I leave the country for nearly a month on Sunday and if I don’t get this taken care of today I know Pyramyd really won’t be willing to help me when I get back.

    Any advice?




      • B.B.,

        You got me thinking that an air rifle of mine might have a spring issue, and I’m curious what your educated guess might be.

        A few years back I bought (not from Pyramyd Air, but new from a reputable retailer) a Walther LGV in .177 with the synthetic stock. Challenger, perhaps? The one that was supposed to be smooth and quiet, practically a tuned breakbarrel out of the box with a lockup like a bank vault. I have it deep in my basement corner for naughty air rifles, those I never shoot and almost forget I have.

        Right out of the box it had both a slight buzz, twang, and vibration, not horrible, but what one would expect of an $80 Chinese breakbarrel, not a German-made pricey thing. It also shoots >1 inch groups with RS Exacts, Hobbys, and CPLs at 10 meters indoors from a rest with the flat palm everywhere I could try it relative to the trigger guard. I can’t maintain my sight image after the shot with it, so the buzziness is probably affecting accuracy.

        Since then I’ve paid attention to reviews of every new springer Umarex comes out with, German or not, and I’ve just about decided they are incapable of making springers, at least consistently good ones.

        Anyway, back to my expensive Walther LGV Beehive. Any theories come to mind?

        Michael



          • The pivot I checked way back when and was nice and tight, the whole rifle was good that way. But I should check the crown. It is, as I recall, tucked in a thread guard that rifle has for, I presume, the non-USA market that can own removable silencers legally.

            It occurred to me the pellets I tried were all less than 8 grains. You’ve written of springers that sometime vibrate if the pellet is a bit too heavy. Can the reverse be true? I have some CPHs I could try as well as a host of pellets in the 8-9 grain range.

            Thanks much for the advice,

            Michael



              • B.B.,

                O.K. You got me going now. I will dig out the Walther this weekend and put some 9 and 10 grain pellets through it and see if that helps. I will also examine the muzzle for any funkiness.

                I will report back, Sir!

                Michael


              • B.B.,

                I have not tried shooting my Walther LGV at a target, but I examined the crown and it looks perfect.

                I first tried JSB Exact Heavys, 13.34 grains. VERY buzzy, more than I remembered. Then I tried Premier Lights. MUCH worse, as was some 7.33 Gamo “Hunter” pellets I had laying around. So, I figured, if 13.34 is slightly less awful than 7.9, I’ll dig out my one tin of Eun Jin 16 grain pellets that were thrown in with a trade along with a Gamo Socom Extreme that was also thrown in.

                The 16 grain Eun Jins were about as buzzy as the 10.33 JSB Exact Heavy’s.

                So on a buzziness scale of 1-10, 7.9 grain CPLs and 7.33 Gamos were a 10. 10.34 Exact Heavys were an 8, and 16 grain Eun Jins maybe a 7.

                The Walther LGV is the buzziest air rifle I have ever fired in my life aby a large margin. I have two Gamo mega-magnum springers and an Industry sidecocker that are smooth by comparison. Our clothes dryer vibrates less.

                I have a couple CO2 Walther Lever Actions that are sweet as can be, but Walther springers are junk in my, admittedly limited, experience. This air rifle would have been overpriced at $19.99 at K-Mart.

                Michael



                  • B.B.,

                    I have never opened up an air rifle before, but this would be worth it if replacing a canted spring with a well-fitted replacement would do the trick. It certainly seems well made externally.

                    I vaguely recall that the advertising hype was this air rifle, like a certain esteemed British underlever, is tuned out of the box. I seem to remember it described as having a well-fitted spring guide, a piston “buttoned” with glide rings, and perhaps even a top hat.

                    If the proper spring is available, I would probably give it a try if that were what was called for.

                    Michael


                  • B.B.,

                    It’s an LGV Ultra. I paid over $500 for it, brand new, and I have shot it fewer than thirty times in the few years I’ve owned it.

                    Per Umarex, “Its rotary piston eliminates friction losses and the piston rings are made of low-friction synthetic material to ensure that the piston does not touch the compression cylinder wall and ensures smooth, quiet movement. . . . No spring noise, no creaks, no groans and an incredibly smooth shot cycle.”

                    Disassembly voids the warranty, but the warranty for springs is only 18 months, anyway. I can probably handle swapping out a spring if disassembly/reassembly is simply removing the stock and end cap (I have a spring compressor) and reversing the process.

                    Otherwise I’ll have to pay for it to be repaired, and it becomes a $700-$800 rifle.

                    Michael


                  • B.B.,

                    I found some photos from ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/category/gear/4 and put one below.

                    The trigger block must be removed from the tube, but it does not have to be disassembled. The piston is indeed fancy, and there is a small top hat.

                    The unusual part of the design (perhaps why these have spring issues?) is that the spring guide protrudes from the trigger block, in which it is secured. Therefore, the replacement spring would have to match the original precisely in its internal diameter. I imagine an additional exterior guide could be fashioned, but its flange would have to be very narrow.

                    Michael


                  • B.B.,

                    The early LGVs, at least, and mine might actually be four or more years old and NOS when I got it, had a scary tendency for the piston rod to loosen with use! (Source: airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?631379-Walther-LGV-How-are-people-finding-them/page2)

                    Look at the piston rod threads in the photo below by Chris LX200. Major job for Loctite, perhaps?

                    Michael




                    • Michael
                      The red Loctite will hold. Trust me.

                      And that is a simple tear down. Pretty much like a TX. The only thing is there maybe about a inch of preload on the spring.

                      Me I can do that by resting the back trigger assembly on the corner of a wood bench and have someone knock the pins out.

                      Same going back together. But if you got a spring compressor it should be a very straight forward tare down and put back together.

                      I say go for it. I think you’ll be happy once you done it.


              • B.B.,

                I’ve had time to calm down a bit, LOL. Shooting a good air gun calms me down and puts a smile on my face, but shooting a bad one riles me up and puts me in a foul mood, especially if the bad air gun cost over $400.

                Obviously my Walther LGV is badly defective in the powerplant. Walther probably put a bent spring or bone dry piston seal in it on the line. A simple peek inside would probably reveal to an educated pair of eyes what the problem is.

                Michael


    • Rambler,
      You never know what you get when you buy a LGV or LGU! I tried to find out from Umarex why the LGV came as a powerful 177 but not the 22, and if there was a technical reason reason for this. All I got as a response was that there is no technical reason for this. I would have had a LGV if I would have had a LGV if I was sure I would get a 22 in 16 fpe. Pyramyd Air has not figured them out either. If they want to behave like Apple and claim to know what is good for you better you yourself, they can keep their guns. I have 2 Walthers and they are both duds. A P88 and an old LGR. The P88 would not pierce the cartridges and the LGR needs a seal change via a process that needs a machine shop to accomplish.


      • I was excited for the LGU because I have two Walther Terrus’s that are both extremely accurate and smooth shooting. But there does seem to be some variability. The LGU comes in both a 12 fpe version and a 16 fpe version and it seems as if Umarex sent Pyramyd a bunch of the wrong gun, but even then one was a 12 fpe gun and one a 13 fpe gun. If I didn’t have a chronograph I’d have never known, and probably been content in my ignorance!


        • Rambler and Ton,

          If you haven’t read my posts above about my Walther LGV, please do so. It is the buzziest springer I’ve ever shot, and I have shot hundreds of different springers over that past 12 years. Mine is clearly defective in the powerplant.

          Michael


          • That is interesting. I have heard only good things of the LGV, and I know that my current LGU, while being the wrong fpe model, is super smooth shooting and crazy accurate. But I guess there are some lemons.


          • Michael,

            For what it’s worth, I have both the LGV and LGU. Both are equally smooth and accurate. I have a mix of airguns in my collection, and would put them up against the TX 200, or other similarly well-made rifles. It sounds to me like you got a defective one.

            Jim M.


            • Jim,

              I think you are correct. Right out of the box it was this way, but I didn’t open and shoot it for a very long while, so by the time I did, the return period . . . well. That and I figured they all must be overrated junk.

              But even if I simply got a lemon, what does that say about Walther’s quality control? Would Anschutz, Steyr, or Air Arms ship an air rifle like this to a major U.S. retailer?

              Michael


              • I understand your frustration. I had a similar experience with an air tank gauge a couple of years back. I used it exactly once and it failed while being stored.

                I will add, that I have had a problem with two powder-burner manufactures that were similar — one with the famous “plastic” pistol manufacturer, and one with the US military’s pistol provider for the past few decades. In both cases the manufacturer stepped up and repaired the piece — but it was still a hassle for me, with having to ship them back.

                Contact Umarex and see if they will help. It’s worth a phone call / email or two.

                Jim


                • Jim,

                  That is good advice. They might be willing to fix it simply to provide good customer service and good will.

                  Their limited lifetime warranty would not cover the problem if it turns out to be a kinked spring, although if the issue were a loosened piston rod, that should be covered. I am the original owner and purchased it from an Umarex/Walther dealer.

                  Thanks for the advice and especially the encouragement.

                  Michael


                • Jim,

                  It did occur to me just now that loose piston rod or not, it’s spring is probably part of the problem. Lately I’ve been plinking with a Gamo Recon G2, and while except for it’s trigger the Gamo is a much better shooter than the Walther LGV, the sound the two air rifles make is similar. The Gamo makes a very quick “Bing.” The Walther makes a much louder and much longer “BINNNNNG.”

                  Incidentally, the one powder-burner of yours that was the model of the longtime U.S. military pistol has the same parent company as my Walther LGV, so your experience does give me some hope.

                  Michael


            • Jim,

              Because of work I haven’t had time to do anything regarding my buzzy LGV Challenger, but I did find a video that captures the exact sound. You will have to use headphones, turn the volume way up, and listen carefully, but the best example is exactly from 8:43 to 9:52.

              Warning: do NOT listen to the earlier part of the video at loud volume.

              Does your LGV sound like THIS? (8:43 – 9:52)

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPqfvHBEQc

              Michael


  8. There’s a major discovery about sharpening that we won’t hear for weeks?! Have a heart. Meanwhile, the last knife I worked on was semi-sharp. Maybe, as Sylvester Stallone says in Cliffhanger, “You just lose the feel.” And maybe I’m getting it back. I’m also eagerly awaiting arrival of my dressing stone to see how that will improve things.

    For those of you who love magazine-fed weapons, like me, have a look at this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU

    I was thinking of how the hand could be used as a magazine for rapidly reloading a single action pistol or an 1894 Winchester rifle, but this guy takes the concept to a completely different level.

    Come on manufacturers. The IZH 61 has left a giant market niche for you to fill with a good quality, cheap, multi-shot springer. Seize the opportunity.

    Matt61


    • Matt,

      Hmmm. With a single-action revolver that loads from the right side of the frame, counter-clockwise would be ideal for the cylinder rotation if speed-individual loading were the goal.

      Michael


      • You’re right. The clockwise rotation would require a delicate balancing act with both hands. No wonder we don’t see this in movies. The only exception is Clint Eastwood’s final showdown in A Fistful of Dollars where he races to load his pistol before the villain can load his rifle. It looks like Clint loads only one round (which is all he needs) before aiming the gun and spinning the cylinder with a flourish. If you can figure out how he managed to end up with the cartridge in firing position at the end of this ultimate Russian Roulette, do let me know…:-)

        Matt61


  9. B.B., Yogi, Bob and others,

    Centimeters is ridiculous, of course I was wrong about that guess regarding HW stroke lengths.

    A question: just how far does the piston seal travel down the compression chamber, anyway? I mean, does it go all the way to the transfer port, or does it end up stopping against a cushion of very compressed air that doesn’t escape the shot tube?

    Michael



      • Chris,

        Gotcha.

        But is piston bounce the norm? The pellet has left the barrel before the remaining air escapes, I would think. I guess what I’m really asking is if the significant length of most shot tubes fools people into thinking that the head of the piston travels a pretty good distance when perhaps that is not the case. 35mm sounds like a very short trip, but maybe that’s about right for a very short stroke air rifle such as the HW 35?

        Michael


        • Michael,

          I can not speak to specifics, but, until the pellet leaves the barrel, the air will have no where to go. At a point, the pellet will begin to move. That will reduce the pressure in the compression camber. When the pellet leaves the barrel, the piston will be open to atmospheric pressure and there will be no more resistance and the piston will come to a rest at the end of it’s travel. Pellet weight and pellet fit would factor into all of that. It all happens in a micro-second anyways, but it is important to understand what is happening.

          Gunfun could probably speak better to this, but if you shoot enough, you can tell the difference.

          Gunfun thinks that trigger adjustment affects shot cycle. My thinking is that once the sear breaks, the shot cycle will be the same. The difference, may be the difference in the hand pressure on the pistol grip (a heavier trigger will require more hand pressure) (plus how the hand is placed). I think that even Gunfun would agree to that. I do believe he recently said just that.


          • Chris

            Gunfun1 does not even want to think about that anymore.

            All Gunfun1 wants to do is hit what he aims at no matter how the gun shoots.

            So what does that mean? That means Gunfun1 needs to learn how to shoot his gun better if it doesn’t do what he wants.


            • GF1,

              I did play with pistol grip pressure/hand/thumb placement a bit and POI did change. You suggested that. I forgot to add, trigger stop. That will play holy heck with a consistent hold/follow through, as you know. Like I said awhile back, a trigger stop ought to be #1, followed by pull weight and then 1st and 2nd, in that order, in my opinion.




                  • Chris
                    But. What really happens with each gun a person gets.

                    It’s like a new car you bought. You finally had it for for a fairly long time. You knew everything about that car. It had it’s little things you found out about the longer you owned it. You were confident about how it performed and how it didn’t. Bet you were confident you could get another and jump right in and make it perform the same as that one.

                    Then one day you found it was getting kind of old. So heck why not. You deserve something new. So you go out and get a new car. All of a sudden you find that some things you learned from your old car didn’t apply to this new one anymore.

                    You eventually learn new things about it. Then all of sudden you find more and more new things out.

                    So how could a procedure be written to know the hidden personality of that car. How could it be written in a way that a person could follow that to make that person know that car and possibly know what to do to make it perform better?

                    That’s the trick. Not one given technique. But different techniques for different guns. That’s what makes them shoot. Learn what they want. Different things can be applied that have been learned. But figuring out what to use for each is what helps make the difference.



    • Yeah I’ve been kinda busy with honey-do stuff and squeezing in some time to build my shooting bench. So with my HW50 I’m getting sub 2 inch groups at 50 yards using 5.53 HN ftt pellets. Not great but definetly much better than what I was doing with my Crosman rifles. Using the same pellets in my marauder at 50 yards I’m getting more like 1 inch groups so far I’m a pretty happy shooter. And shooting walnuts out of the trees at 50 yards is my new favorite past time.




        • Yes it’s pretty stable, much better than my patio table, that with the wind blowing the umbrella around wasn’t solid at all. The scope is a Center Point 3/9 ao. I mounted it last week when the rain from Irma moved through, so today I’m going to put the bench and scope together and see if there any improvement in my groups.


          • Coduece
            Ok let us know how your new setup with your scope and bench work out.

            And I have been playing around with different tunes with my Tx.22 yesterday and today. I got 3 different Tx springs cut about a 1/2″ shorter than each. Plus some washers and o rings. And still have a new front piston seal that uses a o-ring to seal the piston. It’s from a old Vortek tune kit.

            And so far it’s looking like the short spring and washers and o-rings in front of the spring and the front seal with the o-ring is working out the best. Got about a 1/4″ of free play. In other words no preload on the spring when it’s relaxed. So the spring can move freely a 1/4″ after the shot goes off. Kind of like a anti recoil system in a sense. I did this setup on my old .177 Tx I had. And it worked well.




        • Chris
          Read my response to Coduece about me messing with some different tunes with my .22 Tx yesterday and today.

          So far no spring preload is giving best results. It did slow the gun down around 60 fps. But much smoother and more consistent group’s.

          You know how you keep saying that your .22 LGU you got from me is out shooting your Tx .22. probably cause that LGU was shooting jsb 15.89’s in the low 600″s if I remember right. Maybe you should think about slowing your Tx down a bit. Maybe it well help it some.

          I know you weighted the LGU barrel but I still the lower velocity is what’s helping it also.


          • GF1,

            Well, without getting too analytical over the whole matter… yes,… the lower fps on the LGU is probably making the difference. That is what I like about PCP’s. Higher fps and more fpe at target, all without having to try too hard at any one thing.

            As for wind flags, yes, I did make 2. It is dead calm out now. I am laying low at the moment and hoping to see a squirrel moving about and the go for the stalk and shoot approach.


            • Chris
              Yep it’s seeming like shot cycle has more to do with accuracy then fps. Of course with other variables involved too. Definitely proven with the modded FWB 300 I have.

              And ok let me know how the wind flags do. And if that sqerrial outsmarts you. I’m tell’n ya they are little Ninjas. 🙂



  10. Greetings BB, and Fellow Airgunners
    What a pleasant surprise to see the Weihrauch HW85/ Beeman R10 featured in today’s blog. I bought my HW85 in .177cal brand new in 2008. It was my second major airgun purchase after my HW97 in .22cal. It was also my second major airgun purchase after discovering BB’s first rate airgun blog, where I received plenty of valuable information about the model HW85 from BB, and Kevin, who I rarely see in the comments section anymore. I for one, miss his valuable insight, and the quality of information he has obtained over years of shooting, reading, and discussions with other knowledgeable airgun aficionados.
    The model HW85 airgun you show in the pictures differs from mine in a number of ways.
    No.1: My 2008 model does not have the 11mm raised scope rail, but has the more familiar 11mm grooves cut into the spring tube.
    No:2 : The picture shows the stock on your HW85 with a comb only, where as my HW85 also has a carved cheek piece on the left side of the comb.
    No.3 : The end cap on your HW85 is the screw on type, while mine has the 4 clips that connect the the spring tube to the trigger receptacle.
    No.4 : The stock in the picture ends at the pivot point with a ( / ) back slant, whereas mine is rounded.
    I have observed Weihrauch uses the same power plant for multiple models of airguns. The model HW77-97 have identical power plants. Also the HW85-95-98 all use the identical power plants. This practise saves money for the company, as it doesn’t need to carry parts for three different airguns. However, I felt a tad ripped off when I found the HW77 I purchased was essentially the same rife as my HW97. Only the stock was different.
    One reason I think the HW85’s sales aren’t as robust as the HW95, is the extra 4 inches in barrel length. Being a tad over 46 inches, the HW85 is quite unwieldily for shooting off hand.
    All being said, I like my HW85 in .177cal. It is relatively light weight, easy to cock, is super accurate, as well as easy on the eyes. I shoot from a Caldwell Rock Jr. rest, so the extra length is not a hinderance to my shooting.
    I’m looking forward to the rest of blog on the Beeman R10/ Weihrauch HW85 to see if your numbers equal mine come shooting, and accuracy day.
    Ciao
    Titus


    • Titus
      Makes me wonder why one would want to tune a fine shooting gun in the first place.

      Maybe somebody thought that tuning that gun would make it better?

      I wonder if BB’s report on his gun will answer that question.

      That brings another question. What really makes a person think it’s time to tune a paticular gun.


      • Gunfun1

        Your sage advice reminds me of my long passed father who owned a “star guage” 1903 Springfield rifle in the 1920’s. Rifles were hand picked for accuracy by trial and then stamped with a star. Hence the term “star guage”. It was popular to customize military rifles and he had his sporterized. Alas it came back both beautiful and inaccurate. He sold this rifle during the depression. I wonder if this rifle could have been fixed by crowning or bedding. Will never know.

        Decksniper

        Decksniper


        • Decksniper
          Interesting story. Shows how well I (don’t) keep up on guns.

          Wonder what made the gun come back inaccurate though. Something they did when they sporterized it?

          Note trying to put you on the spot. But I would like to know what was the process they used to sporterize the gun?

          And crowning and bedding does help when done right. Bummer he sold it. Still would be a cool gun to have.


          • GF1,

            Here is a question for you. I am thinking of doing up some wind indicators like you made. You know that my shooting lane is pretty ideal for lack of wind.

            Let’s say that I am shooting the .25 M-rod with 33.95’s at 10 magnification on the mildot scope with a 2 1/2 dot hold over (that is actual). Based on your experience, what would the hold off be with a 5 mph wind? 1/4 dot hold off? 1/2? 1? How about a 10 mph?

            I can usually hold 2 1/2 ~ 3″ at 100 yards. I am just wondering how much of that could be improved if I was to take into acct. a 5 -10 mph wind. I just need to get a (rough) idea of how much to hold off to compensate

            I am heading out to mow now. I will check back in a few. (1 hour-ish)


            • Chris
              That’s a tricky one.

              Remember I use 4 magnification at 50 yards and in. And 6 magnification from 60 out to around a 125 yards.

              The scopes we use change mildot size and distance between dots when we change magnification. So all I can say is what my gun did at 100 yards on 6 magnification. And remember my Marauder was shooting the 33.95’s around 100 fps faster than yours so that also will affect your hold for the wind.

              And here’s the thing. You know how when we target practice at 25 or 50 yards and the group’s are say all falling to the left of our bullseye. You know how we say we don’t want to shoot out our aim point. Well here’s the thing. If we have say a 10 mph wind blowing left to right and we are shooting out at 100 yards trying to see how the gun groups I’m not worried about holding for the wind. I aim at my bullseye and see where my group falls and what it looks like.

              Then that brings this up. If your shooting say just a 5 shot group with the condition I just talked about you are going to have the wind coming and going. Possibly even changing directions from shot to shot. Your groups will not be as good in the wind compared to if it was calm.

              So what I do is when I shoot my small groups out at a target at 100 yards and it’s windy. That’s when I see how many mildots away the pellet hits compared to where I am. Then from doing it so much I have a idea of how much windage hold I need for that shot.

              And this is the other thing. Say I’m going to shoot at a object out at 100 yards and it is a 10 mph crosswind and I want that one shot to hit. Well here’s the thing. I probably won’t. I mean I might. But I doubt it. It’s probably going to take me at least one if not more shots to see exactly what windage hold I need.

              So nope can’t give you a answer to what windage to hold for your gun in a paticular wind condition.


              • GF1,

                Thanks. I will just have to try and see. That is a good idea to aim at the bull and then see what is needed. I do that with hold overs when setting up a gun for the first time. Thing is, I really don’t have much if any wind. I will see what I can whip up today and maybe give it a go tomorrow. Thanks again, Chris

                Anyone else want to dive in on that one? Note the specifics I gave above.


                • Chris,

                  You can check wind drift on chairgun. Most of the tme the wind wll not be steady enough to be consistent in the windage adjustment. That makes it as much art as science most of the time.

                  As GF1 says adjust from the previous shot in the beginning and make sure you ppay attention to the wind for each shot.

                  If you have a steady strong cross wind. That is a good time to practice. If it is gusty or you are not in the open then it gets very unpredictable. In my backyard the trees cause all kinds of eddies that makes it difficult to predict the correct windage.

                  Those flags spaced along your range will be a good place to start. Wanting wind at the shooting range? That will be different.

                  Don



                    • Yep today my tablet turned auto correct back on after i tuned it off. And i am sure still changed typing after i turned it off again. Arrrg




                  • Don,

                    Good idea on the Chairgun. That is a feature that I have never played with. That would be a good start as I can put in a lot of specifics.

                    Wanting wind? 😉 Not really, but it will occur. The 30-100 is mature wooded and the short side of the woods is to my right (E), about 70 yards and there is plenty to the left (W), plus it is banked with a 30-40′ rise. Spring and Fall are the worst as the leaves are off and the edge and under scrub brush is down or thin. The 0-30 is surrounded by house and trees.

                    Sadly, without much wind, the only reason/excuse that I can not do better is me or the air gun, or both,.. the 2 worst of any excuses that there can be! 🙁


                • Chris
                  Your shooting range is very similar to the old house I lived at.

                  Pretty well down in a call in a sense. And woods and house blocking the wind. I could see the tops of the trees moving up on top of the hill but was very calm where I was shooting from.

                  I did put some wind flags out at that house going up into the woods. Once I did do that I was surprised that they did show wind moving past my shooting range.

                  So I would say definitely put you some flags about every 20 yards out to your 100 yards and see what happens. Not hurting anything that’s for sure.



                    • Chris
                      Cool. Remember cut the small trash bags in half. Then cut like 1/2″ strips.

                      You will get two flags out of a bag if that’s what your going to use.

                      But that’s what I found to be the most sensitive. And a coat hanger straightened out works good to. Poke a hole in the middle of your bag on the opposite end of your cuts.

                      I use some Gorilla tape then a washer then the bag then just Gorilla tape. That way the flag can rotate freely as well.


                  • GF1,

                    Trash bags was the intended material. Me,.. being me,… has (vastly) improved upon your “proto-type”. My “improved” version has a mere 23 parts, 19 of which move, 6 micro-bearings and weighs just a tad under 37 pounds. It will turn the wind indicating industry on it’s head!! I would send you a picture, but as luck would have it, the picture taking thingy on my phone just broke. 🙁

                    😉 Chris


                  • GF1,

                    I might? have improved upon it a bit? The idea is to take a sewing thimble, the metal type, then put that atop a driveway marker rod that has the metal cap. Attach the “indicator” to the thimble. In the meantime, I used some of those small bolt caps and some coat hanger rods. If I like it, I will splurge for the parts to make the “Gen. II” version.


                    • Chris
                      The flag I have by the 50 yard target is actually a driveway marker reflector rod. But with the washer and gorilla tape I mentioned. Outer left and outer right flags that also mark out my shooting range is coat hangers and the method I mentioned.

                      But I do like the idea of the sewing thimble on top of the driveway marker rod. But your going to have to drill a hole through the center of the top of the thimble and secure it with a small screw or something. The wind will blow the thimble off if not secured.

                      And look at us. Here we go again getting all technical about a wind flag.
                      🙂



          • Gunfun1

            The “star guage” ’03 custom job included thinning and polishing the barrel. Dad said barrel vibration spoiled the rifle’s accuracy. I don’t know if it was chopped or not. His older brother was brought back in the army to work at Aberdeen in the early 1940’s due to his knowledge of ballistics. My uncle was responsible for my becoming a gun crank at an early age. He once told me the Japanese 6.5 Arisaka was the strongest military rifle they tested. He said it could withstand very high pressures. He thinks the steel was the reason as well as the Mauser 98 design. I degress but he could have answered why the ’03 custom job was done poorly. I never thought to ask.

            Decksniper


            • Decksniper
              Thanks for the reply. Good info.

              Makes me think. I would of thought they would not of thinned the barrel. From what I remember that’s why bull barrels are suppose to be better cause they are thicker.

              Heck look how thick the barrels are on a FWB 300 and even my HW30s compared to some air guns. Really never paid attention to that until now on air guns.


  11. Beeman did NOT invent the HW80, he requested it,
    An HW35 with an inch longer stroke and a no barrel lock, There are THREE parts that appeared in the Weihrauch catalogues, the longer tube, the longer cocking rod and the guide rod that didn’t exist before Weihrauch made this.
    If you wish to keep disseminating this idea (cooked up between Beeman and Weihrauch to fool, very effectively it seems, the US market)
    Logically, purely logically
    You have to ask yourself a few questions
    1) How could you buy 90% of the parts to build an R1, TWENTY whole years previously
    Please answer that without mentioning time machines
    2) Groundbreaking CAD design?, what for? that makes no sense at all, unless you take a leap of imagination that Weihrauch had lost their collective minds and suddenly couldn’t cut the compression tubing an inch longer.
    Again, part of the built mystique, “US technology helping make this new Airgun, I would like to sell lots of in the US”
    The skin on that tale is so easily scratched off that you have to be wilful in your subscription to it
    They very nearly debunked their own story when they released the HW80 and Beeman nearly soiled his drawers having trumpeted his grand design for months, a very hasty tale of late stocks was utterly concocted
    Still at least we didn’t have the HW85/BSF connection….. they share no common parts, or dimensions
    The HW85 was built to satisfy the markets that had a higher muzzle energy limit than the HW35 (really a home market power plant, pushed to try to satisfy the UK and other market but always a touch underpowered)
    Nowhere except in the US does Beemans name get mentioned about the 85.
    If we’re STILL going with this, I have these magic beans for sale……


    • Dom,

      Sorry, but Beeman did, in fact, invent BOTH the R12 and simultaneously the HW 80. He had the computer program work done that created the design specifications. He then fed the specs to Weihrauch and made the deal for the rifles to be built. Now, they did all the manufacturing, but the development work was all done by Dr. Beeman and an engineer he hired.

      B.B.



      • Read my comment above, the HW80 is a development of the HW35 using mainly existing parts (including the barrel) and modifications of others for the US market, and a simplistic one at that.(make the compression tube longer and get rid of the barrel lock) are the only modifications
        Bear in mind I have a 1972 HW35 and a 1985 one and a 1985 HW80, so perhaps the problem I have is with the word “invention”
        Weihrauch (snr and jnr) are woefully full of the same stuff Robert (use a red ryder for small pests) Beeman overflows with.
        All sorts of weirdness eminates from this little triumvirate, HW85’s are BSF’s (they aren’t any more than a webley Vulcan is), or did Beeman “invent”, that too, seems to be parallel contradictory tales going on
        . Barrels aren’t choked (they ALL are, check the next HW97 you come across, without a front sight if you wish to subscribe to the accidental crimp equine emination), airguns without choked barrels simply aren’t that accurate
        HW45, don’t get me started lol
        Still, it makes US sales
        If you have some trousers that don’t fit you, so you get some tailored larger, you haven’t invented trousers
        The US requested a larger than 4 litre engine in the seven series, and got the 750i, but I don’t see BMW North America having the brass neck to claim “invention”
        Read Beemans website, for a study in self aggrandisement, buy into it if you like, Doktor is a nebulous term in Germany.
        Its my last word on the subject, and on this site, I’ve long felt uncomfortable with the phrase “tune” being used as an acronym for bunging springers up with various potions and binding them tight, it’s disrespectful to the actual tuners out there, I find big bore hunting ethically challenging, and potentially harmful to airgunning as a whole. The smoke and mirrors perpetuated here over rebranded Chinese airguns with US names exposes the sponsored nature of the blog (its Crosman that really gets me)
        Any way, to all the readers here, happy airgunning, it’s given me 4 decades of constant pleasure


  12. A more interesting tale is Beemans approach to Diana with his schtick, and getting knocked back in the name of family honour, there was no way the Mayers were going to play along if it meant pretending incompetence without US help. Then them producing the model 52 that was a groundbreaking new design with a sliding chamber, was 20% more powerful than the 80, more accurate and nearly twice as easy to cock….


  13. I was rummaging through some of my old air guns yesterday and came across a Shanghai Model 62. It seems to shoot fairly hard. I think it has a leather piston seal I don’t remember. The first shot was rough with some buzz after that it smoothed out quite a bit. Should give it some lubrication.

    The rifle reminds me of maybe a Diana does anyone know if the Shanghai Model 62 is a copy of another gun. Its not bad for a cheap break barrel all metal and wood.

    Don


    • Don,

      The Blue Book says only that SAG is the Shanghai Air Gun Factory and that they are not currently imported. No listing of any models. Previously imported by Compasseco of Bardstown, Kentucky, USA. That is the best I can do for you on any kind of background.

      Did I ever mention that every airgunner ought to have a Blue Book? 😉


      • Chris U,

        Thanks for the response and checking. I could not find much information in my copy of the Bluebook either. From what I remember they were about $30 new and have somewhat of a cult following.

        I have not realy shot it much and haven’t even looked at it for many years.

        Don



      • Siraniko,

        Thanks for the link although I did not find it at that site I did do a search and did not find out if it was a copy of another gun. The search satisfied my curiosity enough that it will go back in a corner. At this point I have way too many air gun projects going on and need to finish some before I start more.

        Thanks again
        Don


        • Benji-Don,

          From the sparse description the nearest thing I can trace is this:

          B2 = SMK Custom B2 / Umarex China 62 / Norconia Germany (premium) / Lider 2 / Blazer Hornet / Swiss Arms XT32 / Diana 25

          Does your rifle resemble a Diana 25?

          Siraniko


  14. I was re-reading some of the entries here and was really intrigued by the conversation held by Chris USA and Gunfun1 about the effect of over-travel and the use of a trigger stop. Since most of my air rifles fall into the category of NOT made in Germany, trigger-tweaking may require creative resolutions with a trigger stop being an almost must have. I would like to experiment with adding a trigger stop to some of my air rifles but, as usual, I’m sitting here over-thinking it.

    In Chris’ statement to GF1 a couple of days ago, he rated what he felt were the most influential aspects of achieving ideal trigger control and I wholly agree with his assessment.

    Now, here’s where I start over-thinking it and I appeal to all of you that have experience with adjusting triggers: Given that your trigger starts with a certain amount of over travel, do the adjustments to pull weight and stage length change that amount of over travel? And, if so, wouldn’t that indicate that an adjustable trigger stop would be most ideal?

    Larry in Algona


    • Larry,

      From my limited experience, you move one thing and you sacrifice another. That is of course if that there is anything to even move. I am no trigger expert by a long shot, but a 4-40 screw through the back of the trigger guard will insure that you can pull a 12# trigger,… or a 1# trigger and you will know when it will stop. Immediate is good. Again. from my limited experience,.. once that shot breaks and the trigger just keeps moving,.. that throws off the hand/grip pressure and who knows what else. All I know is that it works.

      As a complete irony,… I have the trigger guards set up on the LGU and TX as I described. Now,.. the Maximus,… a 150-200$ gun can be set up with a trigger stop right in the trigger housing with the addition of a 5/8″ x 4-40 screw. Go figure?


    • Larry
      There will always be over travel on a trigger.

      Trigger stop is just to give more feel of when the shot breaks.

      What I mean by that is as you pull the trigger more after you hit stage two. It’s a more precise feel of when the shot goes off.

      You can adjust out that over travel with the trigger stop.


  15. B.B.,

    Only a suggestion,… but maybe it is time to a do a blog on the Blue Book. A search here showed 2014 as the last one and to say the least, I was disappointed as I do not think that you did it justice.

    Got a Wan Po X-52? There is 3 listed. Which version do you have? Is a left worth more than a right? The .22 is worth more than the .177. Why? You get the idea. You,.. of anyone, ought to know how to best feature it. In my opinion, some cut and paste of critical sections and example’s (an inside peek) would be ideal.

    Chris


  16. Chris USA and Gunfun1, thanks for your replies. I guess the answer to my question is that whether or not the over travel changes by amount, it’s always good to have an adjustable trigger stop to decrease it or eliminate it, as much as possible. Sounds like I’ve given myself a project.
    LMo



    • Larry,

      I had a nice post to you this early AM, and it vaporized. For where to place the screw, I put some tape on the front and rear (sides) of the trigger guard and then marked both based on how the trigger pulled through. That way I knew what angle to hold the drill when the trigger guard was off. As opposed to any sort of locking hardware, I used some weed eater gas line tubing. Get your screw set up, cut the tubing a bit long, and the “squish” will act like a lock washer.


      • Thanks, Chris. I’ll probably used that tape hack. I may try the tubing but I seem to have several options available. Unfortunately, my air gun work has to go round-robin with my other retirement activities so I don’t know when I will get around to this. I’ve still got a BBQ smoker to put together and teaching myself cooking, Spanish, playing the ukulele and just catching up on my reading. Time is short and I also have to work in more motorcycle trips. Anyway, I do appreciate the tips from you and GF1.
        Larry in Algona


        • Larry,

          🙂 A busy man. That is good. I think you will like the change in trigger and overall trigger/gun control.
          Post a pic or two when you get a chance. On (just) trigger adjusting, make some notes as you go, hold it to 1/8 – 1/4 turn per try,… did I mention to make notes as you go? 😉 With good notes, you can always go back. I do think that some can be set ideal, and with little to no over-travel, but I am not one to speak on it. You see how I took care of the problem. Good luck, best wishes and take care.

          Chris,…. in OH


          • Thanks, Chris.
            I’m sure I will, in fact, I was flight testing my Beeman Sportsman Gas Ram Series (SR2?, Grizzly?) this morning and noticed that if ever a trigger needed a trigger stop, it would be on this one.
            Larry, born in OH (Cincinnati)



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