by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Umarex Gauntlet.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
This report covers:
- All tests
- Does the POI shift with the reservoir pressure?
- Fill the rifle
- Bolt probe in the way
- Second group
- Second experiment
- Experiment three
- Bumped the barrel
- Don’t bump!
- Next
I told you I was going to test the heck out of the Umarex Gauntlet and I’m doing it! Today I’m shooting at 25 yards to test three things readers wanted to know about the rifle. Well, maybe I wanted to know them, too.
All tests
I’m shooting from 25 yards off a bench with a sandbag rest in front and a padded rest under the butt. The rifle is as still as I can hold it. All shooting is done single shot.
Does the POI shift with the reservoir pressure?
First I will test to see if a change in reservoir pressure changes the point of impact (POI). This is fairly common in PCPs, so we shouldn’t be surprised if it does shift.
It doesn’t matter what pellet I shoot, as long as both groups are shot with the same pellet. I selected the JSB Exact Heavy pellet, because there was something else I wanted to test, and this pellet allowed me to do that at the same time.
Fill the rifle
The rifle was filled to 3,000 psi for the first group. I used the single shot tray to load, because the Gauntlet I’m testing has a defective magazine, and also because we saw in the last test that the rifle is more accurate when it’s loaded single shot.
Ten pellets went into 0.445-inches at 25 yards when fired on a full fill. That compares favorably with the last test, where 9 of the same pellet went into 0.501-inches at the same distance when fired singly.
On a full fill of air the Gauntlet put 10 JSB Exact Heavy pellets into this 0.445-inch group at 25 yards.
Bolt probe in the way
Loading single-shot with the Gauntlet isn’t easy, because the bolt probe sticks out nearly halfway into the loading trough. I had to use two hands to make sure the pellets didn’t flip around backwards, loading this way.
The bolt probe (arrow) occupies almost half the loading trough. You must take care that the pellet doesn’t get flipped around and loaded backwards.
Now I fired 20 blank shots to reduce the pressure in the reservoir. So the first group was shots 1 to 10 and the second group was shots 31 to 40.
Second group
This time 10 JSB Exact Heavy pellets went into 0.468-inches at 25 yards. That’s so close to the first group that there is no appreciable difference. You will always get a slightly different group size every time you shoot. We were looking for something that was significantly different — like a 0.70-inch group.
After shooting 30 shots the Gauntlet shot this group of 10 into 0.468-inches at 25 yards. The center of the group did move a little up and to the right.
There was a shift of the impact point though. The center of group 2 is 0.125-inches to the right and about 0.180-inches up from the center of group 1. Those measurements are approximations, but they are close.
That answers the question of an impact shift with a pressure change. But, does it matter? If you are shooting field target it does matter. If you are hunting squirrels at 50 yards it does matter. If you are killing grackles in the bird feeder 20 yards away, it makes very little difference.
Second experiment
Second thing that was learned is something that was not asked but was on my mind. In the Part 5 the group got smaller when I switched to single shot. But what I didn’t take into account was the pressure in the reservoir. The first group in the that test was with a filled rifle and the second time I shot the same pellet single-shot the rifle was on shots 29 to 38. I wondered if that had any difference in the size of the group — irrespective of the magazine/single-shot loading. From the results of today’s test I have to say there was no difference.
Experiment three
This time I wanted to see if the POI changes when the barrel is bumped, as one reader reported. Bumping a scoped rifle will almost certainly change the POI. Hunters know this better than anyone, and field target competitors whose rifles have dropped during matches have often lost their competitive edge, regardless of what has happened to their zero!
This time I filled the rifle to 3,000 psi and shot Crosman Premier Heavy pellets. The first shot answered the question, because it landed about one inch farther to the left than the last group of the same pellet in the Part 5. Look at that test to see what I mean. Obviously the POI does shift.
But I had a test to perform, so I shot 9 more Premier heavies into a group that measures 0.303-inches between centers. Yes, this one is a screamer! And it set the stage for a dramatic finish to today’s testing! This group is about one inch to the left of the last group of Premier heavys fired in Part 5.
Ten Crosman Premier heavy pellets when into 0.303-inches at 25 yards. That’s a group! It’s also almost an inch left of the Premier group in the last test — so the POI does shift.
Bumped the barrel
Okay, I didn’t do this scientifically. I just bumped the barrel to the right, since it was grouping this pellet to the left. I also filled the rifle to 3,000 psi again before bumping, to eliminate any possibility of a shift due to varying pressure. Then I shot 10 more Premier heavys and look what happened!
After I bumped the barrel to the right the group shifted by more than an inch. It also opened up to 0.838-inches between centers. Read the text for the explanation.
You can see from the photo that the pellets went everywhere. But it doesn’t tell the whole story. Shots 3, 4 and 5 make up the small group at the top right, and shots 6 through 10 are in the center of the lower group. In other words, the barrel was settling down as it was shot.
Don’t bump!
This experiment tells me to not bump the barrel. Don’t even pick up the rifle by the barrel or the POI will shift. However, if you do get a shift — STOP! Don’t re-zero the scope until 15-20 shots have been fired, because the barrel will “walk” (slowly adjust by itself) back to a point where it is under no strain. It may even go back to where it was before the bump. That’s what was happening in the group you see here. The next group would have been another small one, though I’m not sure it would have returned to the same place as the group before. It looks more like it’s walking back to where it was hitting in the last group of Part 5.
Next
I think I have done everything I can at 25 yards, so next up is the 50-yard test. The Umarex Gauntlet is proving to be an interesting air rifle!
Michael
A wounded soldier is more of a burden than a deceased soldier when it comes to war.
So maybe only wounding is why only close enough is what they may be after.
Gunfun1,
“It’s only a flesh wound. I’ve had worse!” :^)
Michael
Gunfun1,
Legend has it that was one of the rationales for the adoption of the M-16. Seriously.
Michael
Michael,
I have heard of that. The truth is much more likely that 5.56 NATO is much cheaper than 7.62 NATO. The Mattelomatic is also a lot cheaper than the M-14.
Michael
The tumbling bullet.
Man what the heck is going on with the blog.
No sense in even waisting the time posting if this is going to keep happening.
What a pain in the arse.
GF1,
Yeah, but just think how many times any of us posts something and immediately wishes, “Man, I wish I had that one back.” Now no one will read it! Prefect!
“Always look on the bright side of life.” (Kinda a Monty Python sort of day, I guess.)
Michael
Michael
No I usually write what I want to say. Whatever the case may be.
GF1 — I just replied to your post from yesterday, about the compressors, on the thread from several days ago. It seems like your post disappeared. Let me know if you don’t see my reply, and I’ll paste it on this thread.
Jim M.
Jim
You saw already that I replied.
B.B.,
It looks like someone might have bumped the blog’s barrel.
Michael
Welcome Everyone, to the Gunfun1 and Michael Comments Section, brought to you by the wonderful folks at Pyramyd AIR. ;^)
Michael
BB I see the POI change even with the barrel braces like on a AT 44 they are around the air tube.. what I wonder that if the barrel brace was attached to the side of the stock with the air tube floating then POI you would think would not be affected
I’m here too. It’s been hell gittin’ here though! What’s goin’ on? This started yesterday afternoon for me.
This would be the perfect time to announce that just prior to everything disappearing, I posted a 16,000 word treatise on my great discovery of how to hit the bull with every shot with any air rifle 100 percent of the time regardless of pellet or distance. I saved no copies, and I don’t remember any of the techniques, however.
Oh well. Easy come, easy go. ;^)
Michael
I have to say, I’m glad it’s gone. The world would have been a lot less interesting were it not.
B.B.,
Looking at that single shot adapter makes me wonder if there might be a better way/shape to design it to make loading easier.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
The adapter would have to make the bolt probe shorter to make loading easier. Hmmm. I like most of what I see in the Gauntlet, but maybe the easiest mod to make it easier to load single-shot would be to replace it with a different air rifle. :^)
Michael
Michael
Or a different person behind the gun. 😉
Siraniko,
If you lock the bolt back as you would for a magazine change it would probably be easier to get the pellet positioned, but from the videos that I’ve seen, that last bit of pull to the rear and the push down to lock seem like a considerable effort to endure for each shot.
Half
Half,
You know — I never though of that. But with all the shooting I did, I’m glad. I would not have done it.
B.B.
Halfstep,
I am not familiar with how the Gaunlet’s bolt operates. Does it not have to be pulled fully back to cock the hammer, similar to the Urban’s bolt? When I pull the bolt back on the Urban, the end that pushes the pellet into the chamber is not visible and the opening is completely clear. Does the bolt on the Gauntlet have to be locked down in the rear position to keep the loading chamber clear?
Geo,
I don’t own one but from what I have seen I think there is a spring that pushes the bolt forward some distance after you have cocked it all the way back. To keep it all the way back and thus retracting the bolt probe from the magazine so it can be removed, the receiver has a second vertical notch at the rear that the bolt handle is pushed down into to hold it out of the way while you change out the mag. If that’s not right, someone please correct me.
Half
Half,
That’s correct. And the bolt is very hard to pull back to the rear notch.
B.B.
We all have to check the comments more often, before they disappear and the thread is lost.
Gerald
I was posting last night around 8:30 PM when the comments suddenly went crazy. Then when I tried to view them again I saw comments going back to 2011 and nothing more recent. Hopefully Pyramyd will be able to restore the comments from yesterday. The only comments from yesterday are the one from early in the AM.
Well, at least the comments are working again today 🙂
George,
Most of the 228,000+ comments are restored. Only the comment from yesterday’s blog are lost forever.
B.B.
Oh no! That’s too bad. There were many very good comments made in regards to the Urban. I am bookmarking and saving all these parts of the Urban’s review. The comments are a big part of that too.
I assume one of the server’s hard drives crashed and the backup didn’t yet include yesterday’s comments. Usually, servers have redundancy so data is not lost. This means the data is stored on at least two hard drives simultaneously, sometimes many more. So when a drive crashes the failed drive is just swapped out and no data is lost. So hopefully the comments data can be restored at some point.
Hey! Is everyone watching what happened here? This type of thing can happen to anyone, at anytime, who uses a computer. Please, be sure to make backups (make copies) of your important data. Hard drives are mechanical and can crash without warning, even on new computers. I run backups daily to a second internal drive on my computer and monthly to an external drive. It’s also a very good idea to make a drive image at least monthly. Then if the main drive fails you can just replace the drive and restore the image and everything will be just as it was when the image was created. This is the ONLY protection against infection by ransomware which encrypts all your data. Then in order to get your data back you have to pay $300 to $500 for the decryption key, or loose all of it within 72 hours!
George,
Relax! Pyramyd AIR is working on it and I can manually repost them if I have to.
B.B.
BB,
Waaahhh! My comment this morning is gone! Waaahhh!
BB,
Are the comments from yesterday gone for good? Last night they were all gone and my inquiry into it was mark as “waiting for moderation” or something to that effect. Now it shows 6 comments that were posted early yesterday but there was over 10 times that when the comments went bye bye. There were a number of items that I wanted to copy to my notes on the Urban, including a detailed description of adjusting the hammer spring, so I hope some effort is being made to recover them.
Half
Half,
I’ve been told those comments cannot be retrieved.
B.B.
Half,
I may be able to manually re-post yesterday’s comments.
B.B.
So do you have the comments stored on your system somewhere? If that is the case it would be fairly simple to copy and paste them back into yesterday’s blog. Having to retype them would be very labor intensive.
BB,
That is a lot to ask since yesterday’s blog seemed to be pretty popular and had racked up a fair number of comments before the crash, but If you would do that, I for one would be very grateful. There were many comments on readers’ personal accuracy findings and velocity data as well as adjustment tips that I think would be of value to future readers.
Half
Halfstep,
Just wondering something. I never thought about the fact that picking the gun up by the barrel could change the POI. I can see how this could easily happen to an unsupported barrel like the Gauntlet. I usually have my Urban in the corner ready to grab when the starlings and sparrows come to my feeders. I pick the Urban up by the moderator out of the corner. Do you think this could change the POI on the Urban? Or have you experienced anything like that? I’ve never given it a thought. I don’t pick it by the scope like I have seen some do, but I just never thought about the barrel.
George,
If you aren’t having a problem, you aren’t having a problem. Just be aware that this can be a problem. Don’t change what you are doing. Just be aware.
B.B.
BB
What about all the ones today that appearintly nobody seen earlier.
Makes you feel like not even commenting. More or less like waisting time. And I hate waisting time.
GF1,
Ya’ Ol’ Grouch!!! 😉 Like in the movie Forest Gump,…. S*** Happens. Not pleasant when it does, but it does. I made a quick post this morning too, and gone,.. but I am very grateful to see everything fixed and back up and running smoothly.
Chris
Yep it does don’t it. But just found it funny as to what ones disappeared. Maybe coincidence. Maybe not.
And ain’t got time to waste retyping everything. I will copy my replies now depending on what I post. And I will repost them if they disappear.
How interesting that the barrel seems to want to walk back to zero after being bumped. That is very good to know!
Good to know as well, is that if the barrel is accidentally bumped, there’s no telling where the next few pellets are going to hit. Not good. The Urban at least has a barrel band to minimize that happening.
Geo,
Make sure your band is tight. The one on Gun#2 wasn’t and it was actually holding the barrel to the right until I gripped it a certain way while mounting the scope at which time it sprang back over to the center. I tightened it up at that point.
Half
Probably something that happened in shipping. Did you discover that before shooting groups with it? I assume you did because you said you were mounting a scope when you discovered the loose band. Maybe you should have shot it a few times to let it settle back into position before tightening the band.
Geo,
Yes. I shot the groups after it sprang back and after I got it all tightened up. I am going to guess that since the Urban’s barrel doesn’t have a shroud and mounts in the receiver the way a break barrel gun’s barrel mounts in its hinged block, that the barrel wall thickness will prevent the POI from shifting once the side force is removed. It would, I believe, take a force sufficient to actually put a permanent bend in the steel tube to cause a POI shift. The barrel band has a clearance hole for the barrel that should prevent that degree of deflection. I could be wrong and I will test both of my guns in a vise at some point in the near future. It would be good to know for sure.
Half
Don’t give up on the use of the magazine in the Gauntlet. I only use my seven magazines and never had a problem with any of them. My Gauntlet will shoot 10 shot groups of .350 to .500 inches at 25 yards all day long with either the JSB 15.89 or 18.13 pellet to basically the same point of impact. Don’t forget, the Marauder 10 shot magazine will work in the Gauntlet.
I do my best not to bump the barrel on the Gauntlet, but I also am careful not to bump the barrel of my .25 Marauder. And I sure don’t pick either one of them up by the barrel. Since I added two additional o-rings to the barrel band on the Marauder, it has never shifted the POI. But, I don’t temp fate and bump it or pick it up by the barrel.
I wonder how many of the other airguns with floating shrouds/barrels. will change POI if the barrel is bumped or the gun picked up by the barrel? Might be something to test with every such airgun you review that floats the barrel/shroud.
There is a barrel band being made for the Gauntlet, but I haven’t seen the need to get one. Who knows, if I decide to put the 23 ci bottle on the Gauntlet, I may install a barrel band at that time. But so far i see no need to do any mods other than install a bipod, which by the way works very well and is easy to install on the removable forend.
It would appear that a spring pushes the bolt forward making it difficult to load the pellet. This is probably necessary to hold the magazine in position and keep it from falling out? The Urban’s design is much better in my opinion. It has a small magnetic which holds the magazine in so there is no need of a spring pushing the bolt forward. There is no single shot tray available for the Urban. But it is a simple matter to load just one pellet in the magazine to shoot it single shot. With only one pellet in the mag, there is no spring tension on the pellet and it lines up perfectly with the breech. So I would say there no need for a single shot tray either.
Geo,
I came to the same conclusion. I don’t feel that a pellet would transition into the breech any better from a shot tray than it does from chamber #1 of the mag.
Half
Halfstep
See my post below at 7:58 PM
Halfstep
No pressure on the bolt till you start pulling back about halfway to the second notch.
The bolt moves and loads the pellet very smoothly. I believe that’s what makes the Gauntlet so accurate.
Geo
No pressure on the bolt till you start pulling back about halfway to the second notch.
The bolt moves and loads the pellet very smoothly. I believe that’s what makes the Gauntlet so accurate.
BB,
Can the shroud over the barrel be tightened to put more tension on the barrel (like a Dan Wesson revolver) to mitigate the movement from being bumped? Or does it even attach that way?
Half,
Just checked the screws. They are tight.
B.B.
BB,
I was thinking more about the knurled thing out on the muzzle end of the barrel.
Half
Halfstep
I tighten my shrouded guns with two hands as tight as I can get them by grabbing the shroud and sitting down with the stock between my knees.
My shrouds on my guns don’t move.
GF1,
I was asking in a round about way if BB thought that the shift on his gun could have come from the shroud nut (if that’s what the thing at the muzzle is called) not being tight. Since you make sure yours is as tight as you can get it, let me ask if your POI shifts like BB reported on the test gun.
Half
Halfstep
The only time I see a point change is if the variables on that given day change. Like wind. And from day to day.
But from the shroud no. From the bottle fill pressure on my Gauntlet no since it’s regulated. My Maximus now that it’s regulated no poi shift. Before the regulator yes when air resivoir pressure changes. Also yes poi shift with my Condor SS. And the Condor SS shows it the most.
The regulated guns don’t show any poi shift until the pressure goes below what the regulator is set at.
Gunfun1
Early posts today are no longer there. Your reply to me was lost too at least for now. My email referenced something you posted but I never saw it. I’m curious to know your opinion on laying rifles flat vs racking or leaning against a closet wall. POI shift in BB’s report today is a concern for me.
Thanks,
Decksniper
Decksniper
Maybe BB can repost it since he said he could manually do it. I stayed up this morning posting the reply after I got my daughter off to school. I usually go to sleep when I get back in. So spent that time replying then poof it was gone and I lost time sleeping. So learned from that one to definitely copy my comment just incase it gets lost. But it was kind of legnthy and getting ready to go into work right now. So won’t have no time for a while now to repost.
GF1
See my post below at 7:58 PM.
Decksniper
I was storing my gun in the closet laying on it’s side. But now just lean it up against my gun safe and the wall.
I even pick it up by the barrel and stock. But I do carry the gun with the butt of the gun straight down and holding the gun at the muzzle end of the barrel. No poi shift. Even at 50 yards. Matter of fact do it with my Maximus and it’s barrel floats from 3 inches out from the breech. I can see the barrel bump the air resivoir when I set it on the bag. No poi change. I use to pick my Marauder up by the barrel and stock and carry it by the barrel when walking. Same no poi change. And I even pick my guns up by the scope. And you know how paticular I am about where my pellet hits. I look for that as well as a good group.
Try it. You can see for yourself. Let me know.
Gunfun1
Much obliged! It is very helpful to know that reasonable care taken in resting rifles is enough. Can’t remember ever having an air rifle fall from a rack or from a deck rail. BB guns in my youth are a different story. Since I don’t hunt with airguns now there is little chance for bumping against a tree or fence post. I do wonder what requires 10 or so warmup shots before things settle down. Could very well be me that needs it.
I appreciate your taking the time to rewrite this reply. Best to you and get enough sleep.
Decksniper
Decksniper
No problem. And I should clarify something. I don’t lean the barrel up against the gun safe and wall. I have the scope resting in the corner. The barrel touches nothing. So any pressure from the weight of the gun is down on the floor and slightly on the scope. In other words I kind of have the gun balanced but yet supported resting in the corner. Basically the gun won’t move unless of course it gets bumped or we have a earthquake.
All in all, I am glad that P.A. got the blog and RSS back up and running. Way to go P.A.!!!! I find the RSS Comments invaluable for a quick catch up on overnight post or keeping up with current post. Without it, you see the post # go up,… but,.. where in the blog is the new comment? Not to mention,.. being able to see new post from older blogs in real time.
Looking forward to the 50 yard testing on today’s topic. The 50 is always a treat and the real life pinnacle of most air guns.
Chris USA
See my post below at 7:58 PM
BB,
Why would the POI shift with different bottle pressures for a fully floated barrel? I have noticed this with my Marauder, when I compare the POI at 2800 abd 2400 PSI (about 1/8″), even though the chronied velocity of the pellet is the same (+/- 8 fps).
Fjjoachim,
Why? I don’t know.
I tested it because it was a reader’s comment.
B.B.
Fjjoachim,
1/8″ variance is just every day shooting to me. That, and more, could easily be me. In my opinion, there should be no effect to POI from the bottle fill on a fully floated barrel. The only variance would be me (or) the valve’s reaction (unregulated) to the dropping pressure. I am assuming that you know that a slight (overfill) can have a (lower) FPS, initially, and then the lower the fill pressure, the shot will peak (higher fps) and then steadily fall? (Shot curve, as it called)
Fjjoachim,
1/8″ at what distance? At 20 or more yards that could just be a lapse in technique on your part for that particular string. Or a puff of breeze. We think we are aiming a laser but we really aren’t. If you are noticing this at 5 or 10 yards that is significant. If the air cylinder is not fully free floated as well, I suppose it could be pushing against the stock as it expands with the increased air pressure and deflecting the entire receiver which would deflect the barrel along with it. Or gremlins. 😉
Halfstep
Definitely gremlins.
Really seriously. Definitely gremlins.
Halfstep, Chris USA, & Gunfun1
Today the temperature here in west MI climbed to the mid 50s with little wind. The forecast is for rain and colder temperatures for the rest of the week, right on through the weekend. Because of the forecast I took the opportunity to take my Urban outside and shoot a few groups before supper. I had to carry my shooting table and bags up from the basement, along with some other stuff I use when shooting.
My first shots were at 25 yards and I was tweaking my scope a little so the groups didn’t mean much. I did shoot several 5 shots groups of less than 1/2″ while making adjustments on the scope. I had some hole in hole groups even. Then I moved my target out to 30 yards. I shot three (10) groups at 30 yards. The groups measured .50″ to .74″ and 28 of 30 measured .45″ to .50″. I didn’t have time to shoot any more groups today. I still have to determine how much the POI is affected by the pressure dropping from 3000 psi to 1500 psi. I shot all 30 shots on one fill to 3000 psi (207 bar). I only shot the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13 gr pellets today. I am very happy with these groups right out of the gate and now I know that the Urban is a very capable shooter. I have to learn the little nuances of shooting accurately and how much it is affected by the reservoir pressure, scope magnification change, etc. I thought at first while shooting groups that the POI was changing as the pressure was dropping. But the last three (10) shot groups did not confirm that prospect. More testing to come…
Geo
Geo
That does happen with a non regulated gun. But usually never with a regulated gun till the pressure goes below the regulated pressure. And that means it’s time to fill a regulated gun back up.
I guess I don’t understand why the POI would change if the FPS stays within a narrow band, like maybe 20 fps. I can get at least 25 shots within that band I believe but I can’t verify it because I don’t have a chrony. 🙁
Geo
Think about this too. Every day we shoot our poi changes some what. It’s more about the different variables that can happen than pressure change in your guns resivoir.
Like I said. Regulated guns and unregulated guns are two different story’s.
Geo,
I feel like I get 20-25 shots that stay within a 25ish fps range on each of my guns and that shouldn’t show up as a POI shift at 30 yards, IMO. I can’t speak to a 30 shot string on your gun but on either of my guns that requires a span of 40ish fps. I think that COULD cause a POI shift at 30 yds.
Half
Half,
I will test this further when the weather here cooperates. If the fps spread it 40 then I would agree that it could affect the POI.
Geo,
With shooting like that, POI shift or not, them birds better beat it!
I looked at a graph of BB’s results and found a 30 shot string that was around 35 fps span which is better than my 40 but still could cause a shift.
Half
Halfstep and Geo
I have said it to many times. Don’t let chrony readings mess with you. Shoot a full string on paper and see what happens.
At some point in the string you will see a point shift with a unregulated gun. That’s when you have to figure out how far of a shift you can live with. Then the next step is to figure at what pressures work the best for you in a area of poi your gun gets.
That’s all part of determining your guns start and end pressure.
Geo,
That is some fine shooting there!!!! 🙂 Like I said the other day, it does my heart a world of good to see you getting such great results. 30 yards is my normal starting range. That may be all I shoot some days, depending. I always give myself some warm-up time and shots.
For what you are doing (very specific pesting at known yardages), I would not worry too much about POI shift. How you are shooing now is more than good enough. I am not even sure you need a chrony.
The only thing that may help you is to make sure you are not overfilling (even though you are filling to the recommended psi). For this test, I would make a target with a bunch of dots and shoot 1 shot at each dot. Do it at 30 yards since you are doing so well. What you looking for is for the pellets to rise from the start (IF that happens, it may not) and of course where they start to fall.
A rise from the start would indicate partial valve lock. So, if you fill to 3000 and you see a gradual rise in POI until you hit 2800 on fill, then, you only fill to 2800 in the future.
Then, see what the fill reads when you start to see the pellets dropping in POI. Shoot until, and past, where that happens. Lets say it is 1400 that you suspect that you are seeing a drop.
So in this case, only fill to 2800 and (however many shots it is), shoot down to 1400.
After that, it will just be a simple case of filling to 2800, and then knowing that you have 37 good shots (for example) No chrony needed. No need to look at the pressure gauge, except for filling. Now you have what you need for (your) gun and pellet combo.
That is what I intend to do with the Maximus. Since it is now regulated, I need to get new hold data. I also plan to mount the scope, like you have, and replace the wire model on it now. I did the reg. right at the late Fall, and like you, have not been able to get out.
The only other advice is to practice your standing/braced shooting for when you decide to shoot that way. I know for a fact that my accuracy suffers when standing/braced compared to bench shooting.
Chris
You got it. That’s how I did several different pcp guns before I had a chrony.
Shoot at paper and find your fill and end pressure by watching poi change. On unregulated guns. Regulated guns are real easy. Fill to what you want. Of course as long as it is above what the regulator is set at. Then shoot and watch for poi drop and one more thing with a regulated gun. At the end of the shot string listen for the sound of the gun when it shoots. It will start sounding like a flutter sound. Then it’s time to fill. But that’s what’s nice about a regulated gun. It tells you very clearly when your at the end fill pressure and full fill is whatever you want to start at.
Chris,
I sounds like, if you made your dots on one long strip of paper and shot at a distance that would reveal the poi change dramatically, your technique could leave you with an actual graph of your shot curve. That would be a cool thing to try on the backside of a strip of wrapping paper, for instance.
Half
Halfstep,
Yes, it would be cool. I figure on doing a 3 dot by 4 dot pattern on my normal 8 1/2″ x 11″ backed targets and shoot in a left to right manner. I could cut them apart and tape them together and get the same graph effect.
Halfstep
I have done that.
You can also plot a pellets trajectory by placing targets at 10 yards intervals and aim at one dot in the middle of the paper at watch distance. Then lay the targets out in order. And of course that will give your hold over or hold under on your scope.
Chris USA,
Thank you for all the great tips! I really appreciate your sharing the good stuff. You, Gunfun1, and Halfstep have all been very helpful in my journey to shoot airguns accurately. Thanks to all of you 🙂
These tips are really good, Chris. I will definitely try just as you suggest, using a multiple dot target and shooting one pellet at each dot. Then trying to determine the optimum fill and re-fill pressures. It just makes a lot of sense and is very logical. I think you are correct, I probably don’t need a chronograph.
I would like to see Halfstep, who does have a chrony, do some velocity testing with the JSB 18.13g and 15.89g pellets. From other professional reviewers it would appear that there is some variation in the speeds, maybe about 50 fps with the 18.13g pellet. Halfstep has two Urbans which are probably more recently produced. Maybe the manufacturer has dialed back, or dialed up the velocity on the latest Urbans. I would just like to know the approximate speeds are so I can plug them into Chairgun, which is fun to play with.
Chris, I am posting one of my multiple dot targets in case you would like to use it. It has If you can’t download a good usable target from the blog, I would be more than happy to email one to you. Thanks again.
Geo,
That is what I had in mind. I do not have a printer, so printing something is of no use. But yes, something like that.
On a recent update, my Chairgun got dumped and any further attempts to reload have failed.
The pop up says something to effect of: Please define EXE4j_Java_Home to point to a 32 bit JDK or JRE or download a JRE from java dot com.
Like I even begin to know what even 1% of that gobbelity gook even means!!!
I know that you know what to do and would gladly share, but I can assure you that I would be lost at word two. I will try a few more things this weekend. If all else fails, HP Smartfriend, which I know you think is a waste, has always been able to fix whatever I want fixed.
Hi Chris USA,
I know exactly what the cause of your Chairgun program not loading. Chairgun needs JAVA in order to run. JAVA is a programing language that many will say is no longer needed in Windows because it is obsolete. It may be obsolete, but Chairgun won’t load without JAVA being installed on the system. I discovered this when uninstalled JAVA but then later when I tried to run Chairgun, it’s wouldn’t load. Reinstalled JAVA and Chairgun ran fine.
So here is the link to the web site where you can download JAVA. Click on the red button to download the JAVA installer. The file should then be found in your “download” folder. Double click on the file and the installer will run and install JAVA on your system. You don’t need to do anything else after the install. Just close your browser, no need to test JAVA. After JAVA is installed on your system, Chairgun will then load and run.
https://java.com/en/download/windows_xpi.jsp
Windows 10 has a nasty habit of uninstalling programs it doesn’t think you need when it does updates. So save that JAVA installer file, you’ll probably need it again at some point. If you have any questions, just post them here, or you can always email me at geo_gail@charter.net anytime.
Chris, this ins’t rocket science. You can do it 🙂
Geo,
Thank you. Think of BB and his razor adventures. Think of you and you springer adventures. It can (seem) like rocket science. And yes, I have noticed that “nasty” habit of Windows 10. That “burns” me (way) beyond what I can say here,… believe me.
I have gone to the Java site and it has a link that says “Do I have Java?” and it says that I do. I will do as you say and try to reload Java.
Thank you for the tip and I will let you know sometime over the weekend if it works. Fri. is busy for me this week. I did note your address.
Geo,
I just did it and it seems to have worked. It is even saved on my desktop. I look forwards to trying it out and resetting the specs..
Thank you!!!!! Something that is supposed to be so smart and easy to use, SURE does not seem that way to the novice.
Thanks again, Chris
Chris,
You are very welcome 🙂 Glad it worked for you. If you had Chairgun previously installed, the reinstall would have installed in the same directory, so maybe your data file is still there. When you open Chairgun go to the upper left corner and click on “File” and select “open”. If you saved your data file with a name, IE Urban, you will see that file. If you didn’t save your data file with a name, it will be shown as default.cgp4. Click on that file to open it in Chairgun and see if you data is still there. If you didn’t save the data file with a name, the reinstall may have overwritten the default file. I suggest when you get you settings like you want, click on “File” and select “Save As” and then you can always open Chairgun to that data. You can have different scenarios saved for different guns and pellets. Chairgun will always open to the last data file opened. Computers are MY area of expertise so I am happy when I can help out with those problems 🙂
Geo
Geo,
Ha-Ha!!!! You lost me at word two!!! 😉 I will consider what you have suggested, but do it later. Like I said,.. for something that is supposed to be so smart and easy to use,… these computer and related programs can be a real pain in the rear.
I am not totally dumb on computers,… but let’s just say I “crawl” way more than anything even resembling a “walk”. It would seem that if there something that I can screw up on an electronic device,.. I manage to do it my first try! 😉
Again, I refer to razors and springer’s.
Mucho thanks once again,… Chris
Come on Chris…don’t give up on this. Don’t get hung up on the lingo, and don’t sell yourself short. I have tutored many people that were totally computer illiterate. They have all learned and do quite well on the own now. I have even used remote access to help some of them. I ask them to download a single file to their desktop and then we connect on the phone and they give me an ID and password, then I connect to their computer and I can see their desktop and move their cursor to show them how to perform various tasks. I have one friend that calls me to help him download a file and attach it to an email. He forgets how to do it after a month or so and we go through the procedure again. Really works nice to help people.
I don’t accept the “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” theory. We all learn new tricks here on the blog everyday. My friend asks me how do I remember all this computer stuff. I tell him that it is a gift He gave to me, and I am supposed to use this gift to help others, which I try very much to do.
Geo
Geo
I’ll repost this incase you missed it. It was in response to Halfstep and using dot targets to plot fill pressure.
But you should at least shoot five shot groups at each dot. But heres my reply from above.
“I have done that.
You can also plot a pellets trajectory by placing targets at 10 yards intervals and aim at one dot in the middle of the paper at different distances. Then lay the targets out in order. And of course that will give your hold over or hold under on your scope.”
GF1,
I think you have a good idea too. I can see how that would work.
Geo
You almost have to do that if you shoot at different distances.
If you got a big side wheel on tour scope. That’s the time to write in your yardages when you focus at the different distances.
But it is actually cool to get a visual in a sense of how the pellet fly’s.
GF1,
I do have a side wheel on my UTG 3-12x44mmSWAT scope. I chose the smaller wheel of 60mm instead of the huge 80mm wheel. I just wanted to have a wheel to make it easier to focus, and the 60mm does the job nicely without being too gaudy looking.
My distances for pesting will mostly be at 25-35 yards out back to my bluebird nesting boxes, or 10-15 yards out front from inside my garage to my feeders. My 60mm wheel seems to be very close on the distance scale at 10x. There is quite a spread between 12 yrds and 25 yrds on the wheel but the wheel rotation to focus is pretty fine. I like it 🙂
But I am going to experiment shooting at 10 yard intervals out to 50 like you suggested just to confirm Chairgun’s data. With my scope zeroed at 30 yards my PBR is 13 yards to 34 yards with a 1/2″ kill-zone. If I shoot at 10 yards my hold over should be 0.48″ (1.3 mil-dots), but other than that short distance, I shouldn’t have to be concerned with hold over or hold under to compensate for the pellet’s path…this according to Chairgun with a JSB 18.13g pellet.
Geo
Geo
Let me know how that goes.
I like Chairgun and have it installed on my phone. That way I got it with me if needed.
But yep it’s fun to compare to see how close Chairgun is to real results.
GF1
I am anxious to get outside and shoot again but today it’s back down in the 30s again. We had one day this week when it got up to 55º and I snuck outside and shot some groups with the Urban. Just too cold yet, or raining 🙁
Geo
Yep know what you mean about the weather. We are getting closer to better weather though. It won’t be long.
Geo,
At 10 yards, you would be using hold (under), I am pretty sure. On Chairgun, I think that it shows up as (-),.. just the -,…. as in,.. -1.3 dot. Not sure without looking, but I do know that I use hold under for close shots. (cross hairs are below the target)
“If I shoot at 10 yards my hold over should be 0.48″ (1.3 mil-dots),”,… or -.48″
Chris,
Sorry but I think you are incorrect about using hold under at close range. It’s not intuitive and it’s just the opposite as what you would think. I know that I had some misses before I figured out that hold under was needed instead of hold over.
This is how I remember to use hold over. The scope is setting 1.75″ above the barrel so if you shoot close to the muzzle you would be 1.75″ low, right? So then you would have to hold over to compensate. It’s same at 10 yards only not as much. It very easy to get confused when you scoping a live target. But if you do it wrong you shot will be 1″ off at 10 yards.
If you don’t agree with me, please explain how you determine that hold under must be used at close range. This is good stuff we are discussing.
Geo
Geo,
I am 99.9% sure I am right and not sure how you have arrived at your conclusions. I bit brain dead at the moment,… but reading (directly) from my cheat sheet for the .22 Maximus,… 25 = 1/4 dot HU, 30, 1/4 dot HU, 37 (sight in range per Chairgun),.. =0 dot HU/HO, 50 = 1/2 dot HO.
Anyone one else that wants to jump in on the topic would be welcome. Just chillin’ after a long day at the moment.
Geo,
M-rod, .25,….
30 1/2 HU
40 1/2 HU, mag @ 7
50 1/4 HU, 7
60 1/4 HO, 7
70 1/2 HO, 9
80 3/4 HO, 9
90 1 1/2 HO, 10
100 2 HO, 10
I have LGU and TX data as well. Similar. (Go to current blog as we are out of room here)
Correction, “before I figured out that hold under was needed instead of hold over” should say, “before I figured out that hold over was needed instead of hold under.”
Geo and Chris,
If I have the parameters entered correctly as I understand them from your discussion, then it looks like your POI at 10 yards would be .44 inches low. To my mind that would indeed require a holdover to be centered on target. I have this program but I really haven’t used it much so I could very well have the info entered incorrectly or I may have misunderstood what your ranges are, so big grain of salt here.
Here is a screen shot of what I came up with based on my understanding of the situation.
I still love both you guys no matter what. 🙂 😉
Geo,
I used a rough avg, vel. from my own testing to come up with 775 fps.
Geo, ChrisU
This graph is now uncluttered. I figured out how to stop doing a comparison and how to display the correct pellets trajectory.
Half
Geo,
Here’s the 10 shot groups I shot for 12 yd velocity and accuracy. Gun#1 is on the left.
Half
Halfstep,
Thank you for that information. I was guessing the velocity of the 18.13g to be around 750 fps. Did you measure the velocities at the muzzle? Looks like Urban #2 is a bit hotter, but still pretty close to #1. I have forgotten, what is MAD? Have you shot more groups to determine if the best pellet in your Urbans is the JSBs or the H&N FTTs? Those appeared t be the best at 50 yards in the graph I saved from you. With me not having a chronograph, I am going to do as you and GF1 have suggested and shoot at 10 yard increments to see the pellet’s POI change, and to determine the optimum fill pressure and number of shots. I think I’m pretty close to knowing that already from all the information you have posted.
After shooting those groups outside at 25 to 30 yards on Wednesday, I felt I could improve the stage #2 length a bit more. So yesterday I removed the 2.5×8.5mm (the one I ground down from 10mm) and started with a new 2.5x10mm screw. I filed this one down to 9.4mm length. I also adjusted stage #1 to shortened the travel a little. Now the trigger feels just about right to me.
Geo
Geo,
When I do these 12 yd basement velocity and accuracy tests the chronograph is about 6″ in front of the muzzle. If it is with a CO2 gun I will make that about 2 feet if I find that the vapor escaping the barrel is causing errors.
I think MAD stands for Mean Absolute Deviation or Median Absolute Deviation. To understand what it means I suggest this site. https://www.khanacademy.org/math/cc-sixth-grade-math/cc-6th-data-statistics/cc-6-mad/v/mean-absolute-deviation I actually recommend this site if you want to understand just about anything. It is basically teachers presenting lessons on about any subject that you might want to learn about. I find it an incredible asset. ( In case you feel that I mean some insult by the “sixth grade” part of the URL, be assured that I do not.)
You are right on the best pellet for Gun#1. Haven’t done the 30 or 50 yd accuracy for Gun#2 yet, But I have 12 yd accuracy and velocity results for over 50 pellets from Gun#2 if you are interested.
I’m going to advise you to hold off on any conclusions you might want to draw on the comparative velocities on my two guns until I have had a chance to check for a leak past the bolt probe seal on Gun#1. Remember that I found that my oring was chewed up really badly the other day and I’m not sure when it occurred. For that reason I don’t completely trust the velocity data I gathered on that gun. I will also be checking the barrel deflection issue that came up then. Once I know, I’ll post it as a comment on one of your recent posts so you’ll get the email notification.
As someone who doesn’t have a chronograph, do you think you or others that don’t own chronies would benefit from a chart depicting the different velocities an Urban produces from a 230 bar fill for 40 shots or so, as the hammer spring adjuster is tightened? I might be willing to do it with the 14.3 grain Crosman HP since it is a cheap pellet. Maybe record the strings at every 1 1/2 turn in or something like that.
Half
Halfstep,
I would be interested in ANY information you are willing to share about the Urbans. I have been perusing the comments everyday from everyone. It’s addictive 🙂
Oh yes, I remember you saying that the o-ring was damaged on the #1 Urban. I checked mine and it was fine. I put some silicone grease on the o-ring when I first started shooting it, so maybe that helped it from getting cut when it enters the breech.
What will you do about replacing the o-ring? Can you do it without removing the bolt? Would you just measure the o-ring and get a new from the hardware? Did not see anything on Gamo’s web sight regarding any replacements of anything. That’s kind of disappointing.
Geo
Geo,
I may have brought it on myself by cleaning/degreasing my new gun then failing to relube the critical areas. I have an Oring kit from Harbor Freight that may have the correct size, if I need it. Orings are a Lego type part . I know I can find a replacement, probably a superior one, if I need to. I think it was Steven Archer that suggested using a small strip of a single ply of toilet paper laid near a suspected leak to detect it when firing. He was referring to a breech seal leak on a springer, but I have detected leaks on other varieties of guns using his method and that’s what I’ll do before I worry about changing the seal.
Half
Geo,
The oring was leaking. I put a strip of toilet paper (1 ply ) over the closed bolt with a pellet loaded. When I pulled the trigger the TP was blown to dust! The oring kit from Harbor Freight( SAE kit ) has about 20 that will work. They are not exact but they work. Also I found that my guns came with an oring kit ( packaged with the fill probe ) and it includes a bolt probe oring. I was able to replace it by manipulating it through the magazine port using a straight and a bent dental probe, also part of a Harbor Freight kit.
This , of course means I need to start over with my shot curve and velocity testing on Gun#1. We have plenty of rain in the forecast so I should have the opportunity over the next several days. I’ll post it when I’m done.
Half
Halfstep,
Yes, the chart is better without the .177/.22 comparison. Adjust the zero point and refresh and see what happens. The pellet should not leave the kill zone as it does in the middle of the arc. The bars at the bottom will come together.
ChrisU
Do you mean shorten the zero RANGE? I can do that but if there is a zero POINT adjustment you’ll have to help me out with that.
Half
Yes, I am sorry. Today has been busy cooking and not a good day for air gun talk. Not done yet. Yes,… zero range. Adjust that and watch the bars and the arc.
Geo,
Oh yea, if you are not confident of the data at 30, move back to 25 or 20. Your are not shooting for groups. You are testing. Also, repeat the test at least once. No crony needed! 😉
A Beatitude for the digital age, Blessed are the cynical, for they make backups.
Good Day, all
GrandpaDan
Hello GrandpaDan,
Good to see that you are still with us 🙂 Yes, and make backups even if you are not cynical. Most people don’t think about losing their data…until they do.
Geo791,
As I am often exposed to “seniors” who refuse to “learn” technology I find that they only learn to use it if they have an urgent need to do so. Like their paychecks are on the line. 🙂
No threats were used. If they didn’t learn to use it the system assumed they weren’t working. I didn’t make the system, I had the problem of getting it implemented.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
I may be one of those seniors, as I refuse to learn anything about “smart” phones. I refuse to use, or carry a cell phone, like it seems the rest of the world. Oh well, I’ve always been a rebel and have never followed the herd. BTW, I am 71 years of age, so I do qualify as being a “senior”. 😀
Geo
Geo791,
You qualify as a Senior Citizen. My “seniors” are so ingrained to doing everything on paper that they claim to not know how to use a computer. I wonder how they are able to update their Facebook profiles so steadily though?
Siraniko
PS. You are just ahead of the curve on cellphones for people who don’t want to be distracted and tracked at the same time.
Siraniko,
When I was still working and much younger, there was an older guy in our quality department who refused to use a calculator, he did all of his calculations using a pencil and paper. Some things you just can’t change.
Geo,
I almost never use my smart phone for phone calls. I like carrying it as a Jukebox that only plays the music I love, commercial free. It provides the answers to questions that I could never have hoped to find answers for with so little effort 10 years ago. I can see an impending storm instantly. I have the smartest calculator that one could ever hope to carry in a shirt pocket. It will even tell me the formula I need if I don’t already know. It takes photos and movies at resolutions that I couldn’t get with a camera costing 3 times the money 10 or 12 years ago. It is one handy flashlight in a strange place at night,not to mention GPS. My telephone is basically a little used app on my Iphone.
I can tell you are a smart man with imagination and curiosity. If you ever get a smartphone, in 1 month you will be wondering how you ever got by without one. The easiest task to accomplish on a smart phone is to turn off the phone part. 🙂
Half
Halfstep,
You bring a lot of good points about a smart phone, the least being to make phone calls 🙂
It sounds like you have been pretty dependent on you iphone. Oh, and I am not a fan of Apple products either. A guy I know says he doesn’t want a smart phone because he knows that after having one, he would never be able to get along without one. I am kind of in that same boat.
Oh, and another thing, you might not want to carry you smart phone in your shirt pocket. My brother-in-law had his smart phone in his shirt pocket and he bent down over the toilet, and the phone fell into the stool. That phone was never the same after that 😀
Also, did you weigh in on the discussion Chris USA and I were having in regards to hold over, or hold under, at close ranges like 10 yards? He and I do not agree on this and we need another opinion.
Geo,
I resisted for a long time too, so I understand where you’re coming from. I never wanted a personal computer either. We got one only after my wife became a programmer. They didn’t really serve much purpose for someone like me, until they eventually did. Now I enjoy knowing that I can access much of the world’s knowledge from anywhere I can pick up a WiFi or Cellular signal. If they couldn’t be turned off though, I would deliberately drop it into the stool. 😉
I guess I missed the holdover discussion. Can you direct me to it?
Half
Half
The problem here is that geo and Chris are not on the same page.
Different sight in distances, and what each consider close range.
A lack of specific details or understanding thereof led to this problem.
tt
TT
Was that in today’s blog?
Half
half
I think it was in the Gauntlet blog, but things are bouncing around too much to keep track.
tt
My comment was this morning 3/30 at 9:06 AM and Chris USA commented at 4:51 PM which began the discussion.
Yes, the discussion was in the blog “Umarex Gaunlet: Part 6”
Hi Twotalon,
I thought maybe that was the case too but no, we both have our scopes zeroed at 30 and 35 yards respectively. The range in question is 10 yards, or closer. When I shoot the sparrows or starlings from my feeders at 10 yards, I have to use .48″ hold over to be centered on target. Chris feels that I should be using .48″ hold “under”. So that’s what we were discussing. Chris was inviting others to jump in on this topic and offer their views. There are occasions when it might be necessary to shoot at closer range so it is important to understand this concept.
Geo
You are definitely right.
Chairgun is definitely right too.
tt
Halfstep,
This is the comment I made to GF1 and the start of the discussion with Chris USA regarding hold over at short ranges, like 10 yards and closer. Chris replied a few comments down from mine.
/blog/2018/03/umarex-gauntlet-part-6/#comment-416926
Chris’s reply: /blog/2018/03/umarex-gauntlet-part-6/#comment-416967
Oh, I just went there and saw that you had already replied there. There is no “reply” option for me to reply there though so I will just reply right here.
Yes, you understand exactly what Chris and I were discussing. I made a comment to GF1 that if I shot at 10 yards to my bird feeders, I would have to use .48″ hold over (1.3 mil-dots). Chris feels that we should be using .48″ hold “under”. One of us is wrong and the end result would be that one of us would be shooting .96″ high, or low, depending on which of us is correct. To me, it is obvious but Chris said he was 99.9% certain that he was correct.
I missed sparrows completely at this range when I first started shooting my RWS 34 with a scope because my thought then was that I needed to shoot lower at closer range. Then I learned that with the scope being 1.75″ above the barrel, I would be shooting much lower at very close range and I needed to aim high, not low. I was shooting right under those sparrows at first.
Geo,
I’m going to be honest with you, I am sleepy at the moment and can’t really claim that I know why you have to aim high. With a good night’s sleep I think I may be able to. Right now I’m only willing to say that Chairgun says you’re right for whatever reason, if I have the info entered right and it is the right info. I think Chris U will have more to say on this matter and he should, rather than trust my judgement. 🙂 I have trouble wrapping my head around how to aim at elevated and depressed targets.
Good night ,All.
I don’t always use the single shot tray, but when I do, I prefer to cock the bolt and secure it in the rearmost slot. Bolt probe is completely out of the way. I don’t see a problem as it becomes automatic after a while. My Gauntlet is a .22 and has become my favorite gun due to adequate accuracy, high shot count and low cost. How about a review on the .22 – maybe a side by side test with the .177?