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Education / Training What a difference a stock makes: Part Three

What a difference a stock makes: Part Three

HW-30S and old stock
The HW 30S over the old-style HW 30 stock.

What BB did
Part 1
Part 2

This report covers:

  • What happened
  • The tests
  • Target one
  • Target two
  • Target three
  • Target four
  • Discussion 1
  • Target five
  • Discussion 2
  • Summary

Today is Monday and I asked you to wait for this day. I have something interesting to show you.

I’m writing this last Friday morning, as I had an eye exam early that morning. They dilate my eyes and I wouldn’t be able to shoot or even to type for many hours on that day. And, no, Yogi, I didn’t study for this exam!

What happened

What you’re about to see took place over two days — last Wednesday and Thursday afternoons. On my HW-30S I showed you both the front sight inserts and the rear sight notches. Before shooting the targets you are about to see, I installed the widest front sight square post and I selected the widest rear sight notch. Let’s look at those now.

HW 30S front sight inserts
HW 30S came with these front sight inserts. I installed the widest one on the left.

HW 30 sight
These four notches on the rear sight can be changed to match the front blade. I selected the widest one on the bottom.

Changing the sights this way made them so clear that I could see the front sight without my glasses. I knew I was onto something important!

The tests

On the first three targets I stood offhand and unsupported and shot at 10 meters. I didn’t wear my glasses. I’m shooting the JSB Exact Heavy pellet that has been the most accurate in this rifle so far. I will squeeze the trigger until the rifle fires by surprise.

Target one

On the first target I put five pellets into a group measuring 1.951-inches between centers.

HW30 target 1
On the first target I put 5 shots into a 1.951-inch group at 10 meters. Not too good.

Target two

For the second target I found a better placement for my feet, so I wouldn’t wobble as much. Everything else stayed the same. This time five pellets went into 1.688-inches at 10 meters. A definite improvement, but still not too good.

HW30 target 2
The second target was better than the first at 1.688-inches between centers, but still not that good.

Shop Outdoor Gear

Target three

For target three I worked on finding the most stable position for my legs. That stopped most of the wobble. This time I put five into 1.553-inches at 10 meters. It’s better, but still not good enough.

HW30 target 3
Target three is better because of the stabler shooting stance. The group of 1.553-inches wasn’t as good as I wanted.

Believe it or not, just these three groups wore me out! I decided to stop for the day (Wednesday) and to shoot some more on Thursday. While I waited, I pondered what I was doing. Remember that word, ponder?

Target four

Target four was the first target shot the next afternoon. It was late in the afternoon and I had already exercised and showered. I remembered the last target from the previous day, so I worked hard to plant my feet in a stable position. Again I shot without glasses.

This time I put five shots into 1.888-inches. It was better than the first target shot the day before, but worse than the other two.

HW30 target 4
Target four was five shots in 1.888-inches at 10 meters. It was better than the first target from the day before but worse than the last two.

Discussion 1

The goal for this rifle is a critter gitter. I doubt any critter will stand still while I shoot 15-20 warmup shots at it. This was not working. I needed to try something different. I needed every advantage I could get!

Target five

For target five I put on my prescription glasses. It took a moment to get used to seeing the front sight through them, but I could see it clearly. For the rifle hold I tried pulling the butt into my shoulder hard. I held my off hand out under the forearm, resting the rifle lightly on my palm. I learned that from a reader comment and the rifle stopped wobbling around.

I also moved over to a padded  chair and rested one leg against it. It came up to my waist. That ended the wobbling around and I was still at 10 meters. This time I shot by intentionally pulling the trigger rather than squeezing off the shot. I had been squeezing off the shot and letting the rifle surprise me on all the other targets on both days. I say this as a note to myself. Many may disagree, but look at what happened.

In target five the first three shots went into the bullseye. Then, because one reader said squeezing the trigger until the rifle fired on its own was better I did that for shot number four and threw the pellet wide. It was a called pull, and I labeled it on the target. On shot five I went back to pulling the trigger the way I did for the first three shots. This time four shots are in 1.032-inches and they are exactly where I wanted them to be. That wide shot opened the group to 1.873-inches between centers. Guys, I’m calling this success!

HW30 target 5
On target five the four deliberate trigger pulls are in 1.032-inches between centers and the one shot where I squeezed the trigger until the rifle fired opened the group to 1.873-inches.

Discussion 2

I need to lean against something to stop my wobble. The butt of the rifle should be pulled into my shoulder hard and the forearm rested lightly on my cupped open palm, held far out under the forearm. I need to wear my glasses. And most importantly of all I need to deliberately pull the trigger.

Am I done? Nope. These sights work quite well for me, but something else might be even better. Target five above shows me about where I should be offhand at 10 meters. These remarks are notes to myself, so please don’t try to tell me what I did wrong. You can say what you do, but leave me where I am.

I also need to learn to shoot THIS rifle. Shooting this little beauty is like eating peanuts; it’s hard to stop. It cocks easily, shoots without vibration and I know it’s accurate. The trigger breaks right where I want it. BB is a happy camper!


This series is completely different than any I have ever written. It’s not a test of an air rifle, and yet it is. It’s not about a tuneup and yet that’s what made this rifle sing. It’s not about BB getting back to shooting a rifle offhand, because he never could. And look at all the reports that have fed into this one:

Not the way it has to be
The fool with 100 airguns
That one airgun
What BB did
Rifle stocks Part 2
It comes together
The importance of sight(s)
What a difference a stock makes: Part One
What a difference a stock makes: Part Two
Out of my sight

And, lest  we forget the 14 reports I did on the HW 30S.

HW 30S: Part 14

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

75 thoughts on “What a difference a stock makes: Part Three”

  1. BB,
    Awesome! Now you’ve got a workable solution.
    You may decide to refine it, yet you have a solution…very cool. 😉
    I’m happy for you,
    blessings to you,

  2. Tom,

    Maybe you should take a page out from the slingshot practice and start at 5 meters from the target? And maybe keep the time before shooting short (take too long and the wobble gets worse for me).


  3. Apologies for chipping in again with not very helpful comments.
    From my years spent unsuccessfully trying to improve my scores; can I please make the following observations.
    Today’s significant technique tweak, most likely won’t be so significant tomorrow.
    If using the surprised by the gun firing method, you are supposed to be surprised when the gun is pointing where you want to shoot.
    Squeezing does not mean you have to be surprised when the gun fires.
    Finding what is best for you is a long road.
    Tight groups everyone.
    Good luck with the eye test.

  4. BB,

    What about “Rifle Stocks Part One”? 😉

    Finding the chair to lean against is a great idea. You will likely be shooting through the back door at some critter in the back yard, so you can use the door jamb to lean against. You might try sitting also. If I am not mistaken this is what many FT shooters do, though standing will likely be the “quickest” way to get off a shot.

    The HW30S I have here at RRHFWA is most definitely like eating peanuts.

    Are you still shooting with the “six o’clock hold” or are you using the “POA equals POI” hold?

    Maybe you had better study some for that exam. 😉

  5. B.B.,

    Best for the Opthalmologist/Optometrist appointment.
    Practical shooting is something that takes at least as much hard practice as any other shooting discipline.
    Most of us shooters are falling for the shooting positions that the Rule Bound Shooting Sports/games in require. The games are certainly an opportunity to practice and advance our skills but just like in Field Target they are frequently spoiled by the Ego driven individuals who are drawn to them like moths to a flame.
    RidgeRunner offered sitting as an alternative to pure Off Hand and leaning against fixed vertical objects but there are other things that need to be looked at to control the wobblies. I’m wondering if you are using an Athletic Stance: https://www.artofmanliness.com/skills/manly-know-how/how-to-shoot-a-rifle/
    My daughter laughed at the tittle and offers to kick the manly butt.
    Give them a read to improve or not…the choice is yours.

    Tom, I salute you for honestly showing your work!
    Considering your small amount of time devoted so far i would put your projected pesting success rate for bird defense at 10-12 yards at about 1:5. They aren’t shooting back so if you keep art it regularly you will win the bird battle in time. You will get better at it in the process as well.
    You wil however improve quicker if you adopt the Athletic Stance or some variation while leaning, kneeling, squatting, or even when Prone.

    You got this Tom!


  6. shootski,

    Yeah, 10 yards is about what I’m thinking, too. And I do have a way to go. But I will keep on reporting this because it relates back to the HW 30S and the Beeman R7.


  7. *** please don’t try to tell me what I did wrong. You can say what you do, but leave me where I am ***

    OK BB, I’ll word my comments accordingly 😉

    So here is a summary of what I’ve learned from pesting for over 55 years…

    Target shooting is different than pesting and requires a different approach.

    Target shooting is static – done at fixed ranges, stationary targets without a time limit; focus is on the sights. The requirement is to hit the X-ring.

    Pesting is dynamic – variable ranges, moving targets, limited time/opportunities; focus is on the target. The requirement is to hit the (1 inch) kill-zone.

    For pesting flow is important – locking on target, getting into stance, shouldering the rifle and shooting should be one smooth event. “Aiming” (fine tuning compensation) and breaking the shot is done subconsciously.

    Learning to trust your subconscious is a mind game. Start close, move back as skill allows, don’t shoot beyond your effective range. Until there is confidence, every miss is a cause for doubt. Doubt undermines the whole process and will cause flinching and trying to manually jerk the trigger to “grab” the shot. Quoting a little guy: Do or do not do, there is no “try”.

    For pesting, X-ring accuracy is not required though it will come with practice. Trying to be too precise takes too long and the tension it requires disrupts the flow of the shot. A hit anywhere inside the kill-zone is acceptable and “close enough” rules. A 1″ kill-zone is realistic, for focus training I use a 1/4″ dot and for practical practice it’s a 3/4″ circle. The mind game is that if I can hit the 3/4″ circle (at that range) every time then 1″ is easy.

    Wobbles are inevitable, trying to suppress them just makes them worst. Best to avoid the wobbles by shooting before they can manifest themselves. I found that the way to shoot fast is to practice mounting the rifle so that when you raise the gun you are aligned with the sights and on target. From deciding to shoot to breaking the shot is typically less than two seconds for me. This mounting practice is critical to success, it’s the equivalent to dry firing practice for pistol shooting.

    My MER (Maximum Effective Range) changes with conditions. I have to be 100% confident that if I shoot at a pest that it’s going down. It’s like calling the shot before it’s taken. If there’s the slightest doubt that that there will be a chance of a poor hit or a miss then I’ll wait until a better opportunity arises.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents. I find the smooth flow of pesting/plinking to be easy for me and that formal target shooting and bench shooting is a lot more demanding. Fun stuff.


    • Hank,

      When I hunted roe deer in Germany back in the 1970s (the Germans call them Reh deer) I was faced with similar challenges. I shot everything from a .222 Remington (the best cartridge for roe deer) to 30.06 (way overkill). My closest kill was about 30 yards. The farthest was 225-250 yards. I never knew how far or in what direction I would be shooting. The only advantage I had was a high seat in a tree most of the time.


      • BB,

        Yes, similar challenges, a long time ago.

        I ask why practice at 10 meters? That’s is a formal paper target distance and IMHO means little when pesting.

        To me, my maximum effective range is the thing that’s important to learn because pests should be humanely dispatched. A poor hit on paper means a low score, a poor hit on a pest is a problem.

        To learn off-hand shooting at small pests I humbly suggest that whether using a bow or a slingshot or a gun to: start close to achieve to level of accuracy required then move back a step at a time increasing the distance as skill allows.

        I always use this approach because it increases confidence and minimizes frustration.


        • Hank,

          What I’m doing right now is testing BB at a known distance. Once I know how good he is, I’ll begin shooting at random targets and distances.


    • Hank,

      You forgot the most elementary step of loading the gun. Since B.B. is shooting a springer. Cocking and loading the gun are the first things to do after realizing that prey are around. Now if B.B. had a gas ram gun, he could leave it loaded and ready to go….


        • Hank,

          The critter that I hunt will only give you one shot and that better be with 1-2 seconds of when they see you.
          A gas ram that is loaded and cocked, on safe is the way to go…


      • Yogi,

        I see what concept you are pointing to but you can load a projectile in a break barrel/other spring powerplant without cocking it; one less thing to accomplish.
        I know a “loaded” firearm violates some folks sensibilities about Safety but Tom doesn’t have kids and non shooters about the house and also a pellet is an inert round in an UNCOCKED spring piston unlike in pneumatic powerplants.


        • Shoot, I agree! If Tom’s HW 30 had a working gas ram(yes dig at Vortek) he could leave it loaded and cocked, with the safety on. As others have mentioned further down, perhaps a shooting tripod would steady old Tom.
          Or perhaps, since he does not know how to stand while shooting a rifle, he should just use his 10M pistol. He seems to have that stance down pat!


          • Yogi,

            Pesting with a pistol might work better for Tom. Now here is the butt…but he needs to shoot more rifles while pesting so he can relate more to his pesty readers.


    • Hank, what you described is very close to wingshooting, with everything happening in a smooth motion. And don’t forget follow through!

      BB, my preference would be to put a dab of flourescent nail polish on the bead of the bead and post sight insert and try again with that one. I have also found that my R7 is pretty accurate offhand with the trigger set fairly light. The instant the sights are on, the shot is away with a touch. I need to keep my finger outside of the trigger guard until the last moment.

      Personally I think you are doing quite well. Keep on shooting, and the accuracy and precision will come.

      • Roamin,

        Yup, pretty much the same as wing shooting.

        Rabbits and squirrels don’t fly but they don’t always sit still either. 🙂 Moving target practice (a target in a tire rolled down a hill) was a favorite activity with the rimfires.

        Good that you commented on “follow through”, never thought to mention that. I just presumed that everyone knows to hold until they see the hit on a stationary target and follow through on a moving one.

        Hmmmm… I’m still using the factory setting on my R7 trigger, I’ll have to try lightening it.

  8. BrummiMick,
    I have to agree with you that the breakthrough technique found today may not work tomorrow. I have gone through that several times.

    BB, a standing height monopod or bipod with a wrist lanyard setting by the gun may be an answer for some portable stability. The wrist lanyard will let you release the support while reloading.

    I missed an opportunity to take out a nuisance squirrel Saturday. I saw him three times and he slipped away before I could spot him. When I went looking for him he jumped into a tree only 6’ to 8’ away from me. I quickly dialed back my AO but forgot to dial back the magnification and couldn’t see the squirrel so close. Then he took off at a frenzied pace and I lost him. I should have just pointed and shot. Oh well, live and learn.

    David Enoch

    • David,

      I tried a standing monopod already. Please keep up! There will be a test! 🙂

      And by the by — your experience with that squirrel is EXACTLY why I want to shoot with open sights!


      • BB, I understand and thought of you with that close shot. But, my other shots have been at over 40 yards. I would have been fine if I had remembered to turn down the scope to 4 power. The image would have been a little fuzzy but good enough.

        You mentioned stabilizing yourself against a chair; one of my favorite ways to shoot is while seated in a chair and using a tripod support. My trick it to lean back and stabilize my upper body with the chair while the tripod stabilizes the gun. It is almost as good as shooting off a bench. I read an article from a guy who likes to hunt sitting and leaned back against a tree and using a bipod in the same way.


  9. The wide post and notch sights work well for shooting at a fixed size black, but I suspect they won’t be as good with irregular shaped targets. I’d be inclined to use the fine post and bead if you can see it properly. If not, a red dot would be much better. All the dots I’ve ever had turn on instantly as soon as you turn the dial or press the button so there’s really no delay in getting ready for a shot.

  10. For all the “advice” I have given on this string of related topics, I should just shut up until I can actually “do as I say.” So I’ll try to shoot off hand at 10 yards tonight with my Beeman R7 and see what happens. I will probably have to eat some humble pie.

    Boy, between the blog, practicing with the pistol, the ukulele, the slingshot, and now offhand with the rifle, BB, you sure have your hands full!

      • Not too bad. Check out the lower left bull. At least I feel better about contributing some modest amount of shooting advice (or at least sharing my experience). I should practice off hand more often. Now where did I put that carton of eggs?

              • I highly doubt that. Sometimes things line up. You should see all the other targets in the garbage can! P.U.! But I’ll try to practice to build consistency. I just got my hunting license for 2023-24, so I need to make sure the skills are sharp.

                In other news, I was also shooting one of my many Crosman Mark II pistols last night (one of the newer versions without the adjustable hammer spring tension and with the button piercing cap). And suddenly, Crosman Premier Heavies from the cardboard box started grouping frighteningly well. Then a bunch of other pellets as well. No rhyme or reason. But only on high power. Low power barely gets the pellet to the break the surface of the cardboard backer. I hope the accuracy keeps up. I was going to clean and reseal it, but I think I’ll hold off and just replace the seal on the piercing cap, which turns a pasty white and swells up with CO².

                Oh and I discovered it was missing a trigger adjustment screw, so I temporarily borrowed one from one of the others. As I screwed it in incrementally, the trigger changed from horribly creepy and heavy to pleasantly two-stage and crisp, without a lot of second stage travel. I have never paid much attention to the trigger adjustment, but once this CO² cylinder is empty, I’ll spend an evening or two figuring out that trigger. This one will be a gift to my niece if it gives a reasonable number of shots per cylinder.

                Thanks again, B.B. for enabling me to buy the first one and Ian for helping me reseal it.

  11. i really wish crosman hadn’t chose a peep sight for the walnut stock 362. same reason i haven’t bought the avanti 753 even though i’m very much in the market for a single stroke pneumatic rifle. sure i outfitted my cheapo 362 with a steel breech and green/red dot, and my multiple xx40 and 13xx builds with hundreds of dollars of nonsense each, but my favorite setup on anything and everything is plain old blade sights. out of my thousands of dollars worth of airguns my go-to is often my p17 outfitted with a separately purchased weihrauch .22 barrel, and the fiber optic sights removed filled in and blacked out. thinking i’ll get the .22 long barrel hw77 when it’s back in stock overseas. all i shoot is paper, knock down silhouettes, resetting silhouettes, and spinners. i really wish someone would put out a new single stroke pneumatic .22 rifle. i don’t see fantastic and .177’s are too small to fumble with. i always hit my targets though. c’est la vie.

    • springman3000

      My Daisy Avanti 753s has 11 mm dovetail rails both in front of and behind the bolt. Williams has an open square rear sight that ought to fit. You should be able to find a front post insert to suit your needs even if a minor bit of filing is called for.


      • in looking at pyramyd’s pictures of the 753s- it appears, to me at least, that the peep would be centered somewhat high off the dovetail, which has me thinking i’ll need either BKL-169MB or AFU1039. i’m inclined to lean towards the latter as i could secure it with half the screws to the front of the receiver and have it cantilever over the barrel and mount the williams notch nice and far forward, avoiding the [too close to your eyes] notch sight issues of the older b3 underlevers when they had them on the dovetails versus the newer style with the rear sight way up near the barrel after the breech. my other option without cantilevering would be longer screws and making my own additional spacer(s) at the buttplate but that may interfere with ergonomics. probably something i’ll just need to figure out once a 753s is in my hands. i’m more than likely going to order one when they’re in stock. thanks. oh and i found the appropriate front post inserts too.

  12. BB,

    I wonder if the HW30S would lend itself to being held like a 10m match rifle, or 50m three position rifle, i.e. with feet perpendicular to the target, leaning back slightly at the waist to lock the upper torso, and tucking the elbow of the left arm into the ribs for support, with the left hand supporting the forestock just in front of the trigger guard.

    • Bob,

      It probably would if you hung about 7 pounds of weight off the barrel and the shooter was trussed up in a $3,000 leather shooting jacket, glove and pants.

      Oh, and if the shooter was good. 😉


      • B.B.,

        Don’t forget to insert the battens!
        Now where did that pest get off to while i got all dressed up, did all my sighters, and built my 10M position… ;^P
        Oh Weh!
        Zoh praktikabel,


        • Shootski,

          Ach du lieber! 😀

          But surely the 10m stance has got to be inherently more stable than more casual stances, even without all the paraphernalia?

          • Bob Ryan,

            It is more stable in competition due to the restrictive shooting jacket and boots. Without the accoutrements I believe it to just a little more stable than the standing stances.


            • Siraniko,

              Even if it’s just a little more stable, that would give an advantage.

              Even more important perhaps would be the consistency of hold that would come from the muscle memory of 10m match training.

              I must confess to having shot my HW30S offhand very little, but am intrigued by Roamin Greco’s results below.

              • Me too! I mostly shoot from the bench, but it is time I evolved and stood up on my hind legs. B.B. inspired me. I will have to include a bit of offhand plinking from now on to each session.

                  • I have a Beeman R9 as well in .22 that I purchased refurbished from Pyramyd AIR and that I can find no imperfection on it anywhere. I also have a Diana 350 Magnum in .22, with a scope that I won at an online auction along with two other air rifles.

                    My goal is to find the time to take several of my airguns and see what they can do at 20, 30, 40, and 50 meters / yards.

                    In the meantime, I mostly tinker with airguns and shoot at my 10 meter range in my basement after my family goes to bed.

      • BB,

        Point taken 😀

        Isn’t it ironic that the very characteristic which makes one want to shoot an air rifle such as the HW30S offhand (light weight) also makes it difficult to shoot well from that position?

        • Bob,

          Yeah, funny about that. What is sometimes an advantage is at other times a disadvantage. Light weight makes for quick handling but also lacks stability.

          That’s the reason I have a variety of airguns with different characteristics and applications. Anytime my wife comments on me having so many airguns I just compare them to her collection of pots – does she really need 6 frying pans?

          Anyway, I love my HW30 (R7 actually) as a fast shooting plinking rifle which makes it okay for (light chipmunk & sparrow) pesting duties. At close range a .22 caliber HW30 would be better for plinking/pesting but I prefer my .22 HW50 as my break barrel pester – it’s heavier and has a more power for up to squirrel sized pests.

          Sorry to ramble on. Being stuck indoors (heat, rain and poor air quality due to smoke from forest fires) makes me grumpy. LOL!


          • Hank,

            I will add a HW50S to my collection someday and will resort to your cookware analogy when my wife inevitably enquires why I need another air rifle! 🙂

            Sorry to hear you are having forest fires there in Canada still. Hopefully the rain will quench them and clear the air.

            • With apologies to the female readers, I simply point at my wife’s extensive collection of designer (read expensive) purses and shoes, and that ends any resistance. Plus, I’m not spending 1/10 of what she spends on such non-essential items. I’m very patient and careful in my purchases. Currently, I’m trying to get her to buy me a Crosman 362 Wood Stocked Limited Edition and a set of the commemorative pellets, but she hasn’t let on if she got the hint.

        • Bob Ryan, see my results above. I tried a version of the competition stance, and because there is no “hamster” on the forestock to lower it, I simply hooked my left thumb into the gap between the front of the trigger guard and the stock and rested the forearm / forestock on my fingertips of my left hand. I aimed a bit above the target and shifted my feet until I was lined up with the target and let the muzzle steadily drop to the target. The instant the sights paused on the target (between breaths and wobbles), I touched off the shot (my trigger is very lightly set). After some practice, I had a rhythm going and did quite well. I adjusted my sights later. The gun shoots to a different point of impact off the bench.

          • RG,

            Wow! That is impressive shooting. That bottom left group looks only about a quarter inch!

            I have shot my HW30S very little offhand, and never from a competition stance, but your results have got me intrigued. I will have to try it the next time I am home.

            I dislike fiber optic sights in general, but am fascinated by that TruGlo globe front sight with its fine dot and flat post. It looks to offer the best of both worlds. Need to see if I can find a dealer here in Germany.

  13. I am enjoying these blogs! I bought my HW 30 in 1982. It was and still is my favorite airgun. It has the Rekord trigger but, the stock is sans rubber or metal butplate. Still very quiet. On the box it stated the barrel was air-gun-select. I installed a Beeman scope. I was looking it over this weekend. Still shoots quite, no buzzing. However, the the breech seal is original. Looks OK, but I would like to replace it. Pyramid Air has it listed as out of stock. Found some on line, but they want something like 12 to 20 dollars to ship?? One company even wanted a handling charge and shipping plus tax. That one would have been around 30 bucks for USPS on top of the seal’s cost.

    • I’m in the same boat with a vintage Beeman R7. The breach seal was doing it’s job but it was old and hardened and like a dummy I went and moneyed with it and now I can’t shoot it. I’ll just wait until the P.A. inventory is replenished. I can shoot my more modern one.

  14. Looks like open sights were made to adjust to the shooter in the past with optional notches and such. Not the other way around today.

    I just ordered the Crosman 362 100-year Anniversary Edition, and it has a Williams peep mounted … in the picture. Fills two of my current likes, Collectable and Traditional looking.

    However, I don’t know If I will be able to use the peep, so I ordered a scope with it.
    Then it dawned on me, would opening the peep hole a little make the ‘fuzz’ disappear in the opening? Would it still be usable? Would a Williams ‘notch’ sight line up with the glowie thingie that seems to be a bit higher than the normal 362? Not even sure about that, could be the same height but different looking.
    The scope will probably stay on it, but I would like the option. May have to drill holes in some scrap metal and see how it works.

    • Bob M,

      NDI method:

      Do you have a drill/bit/bolt sizing gage? You know the ones with rows of holes with the funny numbers with decimals or one of these “/” between the numbers.
      You could look through the holes and see if the cobwebs ever go away.


      • Are they rectangular with rounded corners and silver in color? 🙂 A drill index is a must have item in aviation. You can’t guess what size drill you have when all the information on it destroyed by the drill when it locks up.
        Great Idea. My only concern is if the thickness of the metal makes any difference. Probably not.
        Not only NDI but a game of hide and seek. Been 14 years since I used it. Should find it in one of my 10 toolboxes.
        Home projects are not that demanding when it comes to the need for precision drilling.

        • Bob M,

          I have some in silver (rounded corners) and some are anodized in black and other colors; i even have one or two that are PLASTIC!


          PS: none have: PROPERTY OF US GOVERNMENT visible anywhere on them!

    • Bob M,

      I think you can remove the disc by unscrewing it revealing a large diameter hole making it into a ghost peep sight. The “fuzziness” surrounding the target should decrease.


      • Siraniko,
        I will be sure to try that when it comes in. Pre-ordered.
        If that’s the case, I can always install a screw or bolt and drill any size hole I like and still save the sight as is.
        Bob M

        • Williams sells the screw in disc separately in many styles and sizes and they are not real expensive. You can of course drill out the peep hole in the one that comes with the sight as long as you leave enough metal at the root of the thread.

    • Bob M,

      Years of training by some very smart people, experience with some outstanding brothers and sisters and deployments to every corner of this marble as a Spook has had lasting effect….


  15. Peep sight hole size

    Just remembered my AR15 A2 has the flip peep sight with larger holes. I have a scope on it and never used the fixed ones. Dug it out and can see just fine through the larger one, but it is more like a ghost ring. Had to hold it sideways because the Delta H Bar cheek riser was too high.

    There is a slight fuzzy ball in the smaller one, but it is in the center only, so hole size does mater. For me anyway. Need to find the right compromise between fuzzy and hole diameter to keep the ring small as possible.

    • Bob, respectfully, I would be concerned about a fuzzy ball in the center of my vision, so I would encourage you to get your eyes checked by an opthmologist (M.D.). Second, the peep sight, in my opinion, is misnamed. It is not really a sight. It is to line up your face on the stock the same way each time (remember B.B.’s blog about cheek weld?). Your eye becomes the rear sight. Put a piece of tape or a little adhesive rubber bumper on your stock so you put your cheek on the stock in the same place each time and the need for a rear sight goes away. If you can close your eyes, mount the gun to your shoulder so your cheek hits the same spot each time so that when you open your eyes you are looking THROUGH the peep sight at your front sight, then you should be able to simply focus on the front sight, line it up on target and blam! Bullseye! I totally ignore the rear peep. I look through it like you would look through a hole in a fence. You aren’t worried about the placement if your eye in the hole in the fence, you are focused on what is on the other side of the fence, but your head and eye have to be in a certain spot to see through the hole, every time!

      • RG
        I understand, thanks for clearing the air. I do not have a small fuzzy spot in my vision. I have a large fuzzy spot! Thats why I wear glasses 😉
        It may just be the result of looking through trifocals or that tiny spot of light happens to line up with some cataracts I have developing in my eye that is normally overlooked by my brain.

        • You know, that last comment reminds me. I am severely nearsighted, especially in my right eye, and I have floaters as well. I have learned to all but ignore the floaters in most situations, however, peep sights increase the depth of focus to a statling extent. Now I can clearly see a floater cross my central vision in the peep sight. So perhaps when you look through the peep sight, stuff that you typically ignore or don’t see is now in focus and it stands out, like a cloudy cataract or like my floaters.

          • RG
            It’s amazing. My brain has actually learned to ignore two big scratches in my glasses.
            Not all the time, but right now reading this and watching TV. Depends on the light I guess. I have to concentrate to see them. Kind of like when a scope ignores a front sight.

  16. I find it hard to believe that WordPress is the best option. Since I believe that PA instructed B.B. to use them. I wonder if they have similar problems when they post their stuff?

    Either that, or Tom failed his exam!


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