by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This Diana model 5 air pistol is marked as a Winchester model 353.
This report covers:
- A valuable report!
- RWS Hobby pellets
- Oil
- Crosman Premier lites
- The oiling
- Experience pays off
- Qiang Yuan Training pellets
- Back to Hobbys
- How is it doing?
- Trigger pull
- Cocking effort
- Evaluation so far
Today’s the day I discover how healthy my new/old Diana model 5 (Winchester 353) air pistol is. This is best done with a chronograph, which is the Nth time I have told you that.
A valuable report!
Today’s test will be a valuable lesson in spring gun dynamics. Because of how I conducted it, this test shows things that are not often seen this clearly. Let’s begin.
RWS Hobby pellets
I wanted to know up front whether this pistol is in good condition or not. So I used the RWS Hobby pellet first. In my research for this report I found stated velocities for the Diana model 5 pistol between 375 f.p.s. and 450 f.p.s. Those numbers were no doubt obtained with a light pellet, and in the days that the model 5 was selling, lead pellets were the norm. I thought a lightweight lead pellet would have to give me the fastest average velocity. I was wrong, but let me tell you how the test went.
Oil
Before shooting I oiled the piston seal with a couple drops of Napier Power airgun oil that comes packaged with certain UK airguns. I have tested this oil in the past and found the manufacturer’s claims of faster velocity are false. But it is a good airgun oil that can bring a spring gun back to its optimum performance, just like many other oils on the market. In other words, there is no magic in this particular oil.
Okay, let me show you the first string. These are RWS Hobby pellets
Shot……………Vel.
1………………..361
2………………..385
3………………..392
4………………..384
5………………..385
6………………..377
7………………..375
8………………..371
9………………..364
10………………366
This string averages 376 f.p.s.. The spread is a large 31 f.p.s. — from 361 to 392 f.p.s. This tells me my Diana model 5 is probably performing as it should, because the velocity predictions from the Blue Book of Airguns and the internet ranged from 375 to 450 f.p.s. But look at how the velocity rises and then falls again over these 10 shots. That’s telling us something, too. We’ll see what in a bit.
Crosman Premier lites
Next I tried Crosman Premier 7.9-grain domed pellets. These pellets fit the breech very tight, plus they are almost a full grain heavier than the Hobbys, so I expected the velocity to drop considerably. Let’s see what happened.
Shot……………Vel.
1………………..354
2………………..332
3………………..326 (oiled piston seal after this shot)
4………………..353
5………………..430
6………………..355
7………………..348
8………………..345
9………………..333
10………………338
The average for this string was 351 f.p.s., but the spread was a huge 104 f.p.s. It went from 326 f.p.s. to 430 f.p.s. And look at how the string went. After I oiled the gun, it came alive again, then tapered off towards the end. What gives?
The oiling
First I will tell you that this time I didn’t use Napier oil. I used silicone chamber oil that has a long needle applicator that allows me to reach through the transfer port and get right to the piston. I don’t know how much oil I used this time, but certainly more than a couple drops! Maybe 10 drops. I think the needle applicator is the reason for all that’s about to unfold. The Napier oil has to drop through the transfer port on its own because I can’t even get the tip of the bottle next to the transfer port. The silicone chamber oil can be put right where I want it. That makes all the difference, I think.The type of oil is not important.
Experience pays off
Notice that the velocity dropped off after the oiling this time, as well? You might think the airgun needs even more oil, but I know from experience that after a heavy oiling like I just did, this gun needs to settle down again. It has enough oil for the next thousand shots. Let’s shoot another pellet and see what I mean.
Qiang Yuan Training pellets
The next pellet I tested was the Qiang Yuan Training pellet. This all-lead wadcutter weighs even more than the Crosman Premiers. At 8.2-grains, it is the heaviest pellet of the test. BUT — and this is a big one — it also fit the breech very loosely! They dropped into the bore deeply! Now let’s see what this heavier lead pellet did in the Diana model 5.
Shot……………Vel.
1………………..393
2………………..399
3………………..396
4………………..400
5………………..403
6………………..412
7………………..406
8………………..413
9………………..420
10………………417
This heaviest pellet of all averaged 406 f.p.s. The spread was 27 f.p.s., but if you examine the string you’ll see that the pellet “settled down” in the low 400s after shot number 4. In other words, the model 5 is now shooting more consistently than it did immediately after the second oiling. That’s the experience thing I just mentioned.
Back to Hobbys
Now that I think the pistol is shooting like it should, I wanted to retest it with Hobbys. Here we go.
Shot……………Vel.
1………………..392
2………………..400
3………………..395
4………………..397
5………………..396
6………………..398
7………………..386
8………………..387
9………………..384
10………………394
The average this time was 393 f.p.s. The spread was just 16 f.p.s.. That’s down from 31 f.p.s. the first time. And the average has increased by 17 f.p.s. (376 to 393 f.p.s.).
How is it doing?
In my opinion, this Diana model 5 pistol is shooting as it should. Could it be tuned to go faster? Certainly. But that’s unimportant to me. I have other spring-piston pistols that are much faster than this one. All I want for this one is to know that it’s healthy, and today’s test demonstrates that it is.
Trigger pull
The two-stage trigger breaks at a measured 1 lb. 2 oz. Stage 2 is very light and you need practice to feel it before the pistol fires.
Cocking effort
The cocking effort was difficult to measure precisely because the action wanted to open jerkily when operated slowly. Going faster makes it smooth out. I will say the cocking effort is somewhere between 22 and 25 lbs.
Evaluation so far
This pistol appears to be in fine shape as it is. It doesn’t seem to need any maintenance — just more shooting. Because of its age and also because of the timeframe in which it was made, it does need to be warmed up with several shots before it settles down. I’ll look at accuracy next. And because of the need to be fired to settle down I will probably warm up the gun before shooting for record.
B.B.
How much oil do these things need? I put 2-3 drops of silicon oil down the transfer port of my LP8.
All it did was spew it out over the next several shots! It looked a bit like a slo-mo of a sneeze…..
-Y
Yogi,
How old is your LP8? Likely not very. I will bet you that this old Diana has a leather seal, so it needs a bit of oil to expand and lubricate it. It is probably good for a thousand shots or more now. The original manual for my 1906 BSA said I should oil it every 50 shots or so, but I think that is overdoing it a bit.
Your LP8 has a synthetic seal and will probably not need any more oil for a few thousand shots and then a drop should do.
RR,
No, this Diana is old, but the seals are synthetic. These are the guns whose original seals always dry rot. So this one has been resealed at some point.
B.B.
RR,
I just got back from the Pacific Airgun Expo. It was smaller this year, I did not count them but would say 15-20 tables. There was none of the larger companies at the show, mostly folks selling and trading what they have. That is what I go for anyway.
There was one table that had a good assortment of antique air guns; rifles and pistols. Quite a few of the old butt reservoir rifles and pistols; too rich for me though. There was one little butt reservoir pistol in wood steel and brass that was a beauty. It still had the little hand pump to fill it with.
On the same table there was a gun that the guy didn’t know what it was. Turned out it was an Apache Fire-Ball Texan similar to the one I had been working on. This one had all the parts though and in about 75% condition.
To shorten up the story I ended up bringing it home. I probably doubled the price by the time I got finished telling him about the Apache rifle. It shows very moderate use but has been apart based on the buggered screw heads. It was dry so I put about twenty drops of transmission seal restorer in the pump and gave it a work out. The pump seal is good and the exhaust valve seems good. The intake valve is leaking so I will let it set overnight and maybe I will get lucky.
Don
Don,
I did reply to you at the bottom,.. but did a new post, rather than a direct reply. 🙁
Don,
I am glad it was a rewarding day for you, though I am disappointed by the low vendor turnout.
I so miss the Roanoke, VA show. It was a pretty big show in comparison, but when the guy who organized it died, it went away.
I have been to the Hickory, NC show twice now and I would venture to say there are at least 100 tables. I am planning on going again this year, if my wife will let me that is. As a result of my last trip I have ended up spending close to five thousand on air rifle and accessories. 😉
RR,
When Fred Liady passed away, the show moved to the Moose lodge for several years. What killed that show and all airgun shows was a lack of promotion.
B.B.
BB,
I remember well. Organization and promotion of an airgun show or any event for that matter, takes considerable effort and dedication to such as you are quite familiar with your Texas show.
This is also why I always try to put out the word as much as possible for any airgun event I come across. I do not want to rush through Spring, Summer and Fall but I am looking forward to the Hickory, NC show in October.
Yogi,
Read what I said. You oil, then shoot and shoot. Things will settle down.
B.B.
B.B.,
It’s nice to see the revitalization of this old pistol. You were probably too tired already not to repeat the test for Crosman Premier lites like what you did for the RWS Hobby pellets.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Not too tired. I just knew what it would be. Figure better stability and an average around 355 f.p.s.
B.B.
A drop of oil overnighting on the breech seal and a light application of Tune in a Tube will probably see this cock more evenly and sit a bit more consistently I reckon
Dom,
I too think a bit of TIAT would help smooth the old girl out a bit.
B.B.,
Glad you got have it up and running. That first string looked like a slightly overfilled PCP. Someone less experienced reader might be left with the assumption that the type of oil does not matter. The usual warnings were missing, (no petrol based and silicone based only).
Maybe it would not matter in a lower fps springer? In fact, that is a good question,…. “At what fps point/range is a person risking detonation/dieseling with a petrol based oil?”
Chris
Chris,
I would not use petroleum based oils in the chamber of any modern sproinger. Regular oils were used for leather piston seals in the old airguns because to the best of my knowledge, they really did not have a choice. I guess they could have used whale oil. I use silicone oil in my 1906 BSA.
A few years back I had PA install a gas spring in my Gamo CFX. When I got it back and was shooting it, somehow oil or grease migrated into the compression chamber and I had a massive detonation. There was a loud bang, a big cloud of smoke and the rotating bolt handle was gone, never to be seen again. The POI was also about six inches lower than it used to be. It had literally blown out every seal in that rifle. PA was nice enough to rebuild it for me, put my old spring back in and refund me for the gas spring.
RR,
Quite the story. Lucky you were not hurt from the bolt/bolt handle. I had to look up the CFX in the Blue Book. P.A. did show a CFR NP Combo. I never thought I would ever see Gamo and $354.00 in the same ad. I guess I am not up on my Gamo’s.
Chris,
Really. I would most definitely hesitate to spend that on a Gamo.
Having said that, the CFX was my first air rifle. I bought it because of BB’s reviews of it. It was .177 and when I found THE pellet for it, it was phenomenally accurate. Using H&N Field Target Trophy in the 4.52mm head, I could shoot a ten shot group at 25 yards that you could literally cover with a dime. I had replaced the trigger with a CharlieDaTuna trigger and although it was not a Feinwerkbau, it was much improved. At 50 yards the group dropped over a foot and opened up to about six inches. It was also hold sensitive.
The CFR and the ACCU are essentially the same air rifle.
B.B.,
As for the velocity fluctuations, check if there are any thin steel washers under the breech seal. Adding a few washers can increase the velocity.
Sorry to break the thread but has anyone rigged a shoulder stock for a Beaman P13 pistol?
I got a 5G version with slightly more power. Is there better grips or a shoulder stock available for these?
Scoping (?) one is another challenge.
P2318,
You’ll have to get a custom-made grip or shoulder stock to get what you want. The model 5 grip stayed the same throughout the production run, except the color of the plastic was changed from light gray to dark brown at some time.
As an alternative, the Diana model 70 air rifle is a model 5 pistol mounted in a wooden shoulder stock. Expect to pay around $350-400 for one these days.
When this pistol was being made, air pistols were not scoped very often. I doubt Dianas ever gave it any thought.
B.B.
BB
How about the P13?
Brent
Brent,
Even more so for the P13. I don’t think anybody does anything for it.
B.B.
That’s too bad. A shoulder stock would turn it into a really nice plinker under 20 yards and increase its versatility.
BB, does leather piston seal diesel more than synthetic piston seals? The leather piston seals seem to smoke quite a long time after oiling whereas synthetic piston seals don’t smoke much when a drop of oil is added, but if a little more is added it causes a loud bang. Does the excess oil get stored in the leather seal and used up a little with every shot?
And what will happen if I use very heavy pellets in a .177 springer of 15 fpe, like of around 15 grains? Will it damage the gun?
Riki,
I think leather does smoke longer than synthetic. It’s shouldn’t diesel more, but I do notice the smoke lasts longer. I’m testing one right now that’s doing that.
Use the heavy pellets. I have done it and never seen anything bad happen. But I bet the accuracy will be lousy.
B.B.
Seals are universally important. When my IZH 61 gave way after close to 100,000 shots it was because the seal broke. I helped it along through some error in the cocking procedure that I don’t even remember, but the seal was probably worn out anyway.
cstoehr, since I’ve never been inside an airgun, by knowledge comes from the blog. I could swear that a blog post advised leaving the old CO2 container inside until it is replaced. But I am certain this was the advice for pump guns. The phrase was to “leave one pump” in the gun. Since we’re talking about pressure and not the type of gas, the powerplant should not matter. I don’t exactly remember the rationale for doing this, but vague memories and my own reasoning suggest that light pressure keeps the seal in the position that it is supposed to be in without stressing it. Without pressure, there would be a danger of the seal warping. Your theory is that the seal will warp with pressure. I don’t know how to resolve this by reasoning, but my CO2 guns have always functioned well with long intervals between use.
gunfun1, I’ve only had one experience firing a shotgun where I completely missed the target, but the term “slapping the trigger” seems to be a common one. I’ve also heard from 3 gun shooters that the trigger technique for shotguns is distinctly different from rifle and pistol.
On the subject of shotguns, I saw a puzzling ad in a recent publication. Hornady is selling some kind of heavy magnum shotgun lead with 00 or other other kind of pellet. The load is for coyotes, and they claim that the magnum load will not damage the pelt. How could that be? If the shot was heavier than normal and traveling faster, it might do less damage than a conventional load, but with the pattern created by a shotgun,you’re going to shred the pelt. The difference seems academic.
Matt61
Matt61,
I am not sure that I would want to walk up on a shotgun hit Coyote that had (not) had his hide penetrated. What are the figuring?,….. stun it to death? Maybe some of those 00’s will find their way to the head? But, would not the skull be harder? Assuming 30 or so 00’s hit it broadside, would that impart enough fatal damage/trauma to the insides? We have all seen ballistic gelatin and the expansion of the wound channel. That would be like putting a piece of leather up to the gel, hitting it,.. but not penetrating it. What would the gel do?
Very interesting. Chris
Oooops on the “30”. Maybe 10 or so. “00” is .330″ / 8.38mm.
Chris U
I replied to Matt61. Read my comment about the shot gun loads.
GF1,
See report at bottom. After reading, it looks like I left out the AA 16.00’s at 50 yards. Next time out, I will do them at 50 yards.
Chris U and Matt61
There is probably less of the bigger diameter lead shot in a load than the smaller diameter shot.
So what happens is the bigger diameter heavier lead shot penetrates the pelt. You know the retained foot pound of energy. Basically a wide scattered pattern of hits on the pelt. Kind of like what I was talking about when we was kids on the plastic bb blog the other day. We put 6 or 7 steel bb’s in our 760’s and shot at cans. You were going to hit if you were at a usable distance with some of the bb’s.
But back to a regular small diameter buck shot load. There is bunches of that shot in a load. And here’s a example that maybe can be related to. Take a lid from a 5 gallon bucket and put at let’s say 40 yards.The small buck shot will pretty much heavily cover that lid and penetrate with little holes that are about a 1/16″ diameter. Of course at a closer distance it would have places that would start to blow spots out of the lid. That would be the damaged pelts.
Now take that bigger heavy diameter buck shot with less amount of them in a load. It’s going to be sparatic hits on that lid at the 40 yards. And example move in closer and more hits. Out farther less hits. Possibly.
And that was all just examples. It could be 50 yards. It also could be more or less hits with either load also.
But that’s why one load would ruin the pelt and the other won’t. The fur would still be intact and hide the few buck shot that did hit with the bigger diameter heavier buck shot.
GF1,
So big holes are a no-no and small ones are fine? You say “ft. lbs. of energy”. I would think that .330″ shot from a Magnum shell (will) make a hole,.. unless there is required (minimum) distance that must be maintained. That still does not answer what kill effect the shot would have without penetration. Bust some ribs? To me, it sounds as if it might be a rather inhumane kill,… to save a hide..
Chris U
The bigger diameter buck shot will make a bigger single penitrating hole. But it would be kind of like let’s say a 5 shot group with a .25 caliber pellet that covers 12 inches.
Then take the smaller diameter buck shot group. It would be let’s say that same 12 inches. But there would be say 100 small .030″ diameter holes in that 12 inches. So the pelt would have a 12″ area of fur that was tore up.
With the big buck shot you would have only a few spots that hit and penetrate. In other words it would be like finding a needle in a hay stack when trying to find where the buck shot hit the fur. In other words if there was no blood spot on the fur it would be hard to find were let’s say one .25 caliber pellet penetrated the pelt and helped in making the fatal hit to dispatch the coyote.
GF1,
I see that I got your comment backwards. I apologize for that. It appears that holes in the pelt are to be expected. It then comes down to how big, how many and what is the final appearance of a pelt. Matt did say “no damage”. I suppose that is what threw me.
Anyway,…….. going to get out and shoot the Maximus with a bunch of different .22 pellets tomorrow. 🙂 I will do 30 yards. Not too close, not too far.
Chris U
Yep you got it.
And good glad your getting out to get some more time on the Maximus and with some different pellets. I just went straight to the trusty ole JSB 15.89’s. So I will be watching to see what you come up with.
And I got to work tomorrow. Bummer kind of. Was ready to be off for the weekend. But need the money and is suppose to storm tomorrow. So probably wouldn’t do alot anyway if I was off.
But make sure you give the low down on what you get with the Maximus tomorrow.
GF1,
Yup,… you got it. Will update you and all the rest of my AA Homies. 70*? 10% rain last I heard. PM. You get, what I get,.. about 24 hrs. before. Outa’ here.
Chris U
You know that’s weird. I get the weather about 24 hrs. before Buldawg too. He will tell me the next day he’s getting what I had.
Guess it’s the way the pattern is flowing.
Anyway hope you tell me the Maximus is good with other pellets than the JSB’s. I’m thinking it’s a gun that will shoot multiple different pellets good. Will be waiting. 🙂
GF1,
Been busy this AM. Targets made. Four w/4 bulls each. Pellets laid out by weight progression. 10 types. Trigger re-adjusted. I bent the spring overall as you did. I just took the V and two pairs of pliers and bent the V inward. I traced it on paper first. The end result was about the thickness of the wire difference. Measured with a protractor,.. start 130*, end 124*.
Best of all was the trigger gauge. Before,.. 2# 8oz., 2 10, 2 12. End,.. 1# 8oz., 1 7, 1 6. I like my triggers around a measured 1 1/2#’s,… so I am a happy camper. 🙂 🙂 🙂
There is no excuse for anyone to live with a 6# Maximus trigger. The trigger is stock with the exception of the two 4-40 screws, chopped return spring and clean and lube.
Chris U
Getting ready to start work. Sounds good on the trigger. But got to go. Let me know how it goes today.
I agree that the magnum load has to penetrate the animal to work. How it does less damage to the pelt is the less obvious part. That raises a question of whether heavier shot will spread wider (creating a larger pattern) than small shot. Since mass is defined in terms of inertia or resistance to motion, I would tend to think that the heavier load has a smaller pattern at a given distance. But how far the pattern spreads is a function of the target’s location. I would think that 50 yards is about the limit for a shotgun using any kind of shot load, and the pattern would be about coyote sized. So, I would tend to agree that the less damage is interpreted as fewer and large holes in the pelt rather than many smaller ones. Fewer blemishes are easier to remove. But that does make me wonder how pelts are used now. Fur coats seem to have gone out of style.
My only other insight into the phenomenon was from a Stephen Hunter novel about his fictional sniper Bob Lee Swagger. Through a complicated series of circumstances, a secret murderer is unmasked at a skeet range. The descendant of one of his victims and a professional gangster then aims his shotgun at close range and exacts justice. Hunter says that, at this distance, the shot comes out of the barrel in a concentrated column and hits with the impact of an elephant gun. This would clearly cause a lot of damage to a pelt. So, this makes me think that the magnum load not only reaches out to 50 yards but is probably intended for that range and not much closer, which would be tough to do with a coyote. Aren’t varmint rifles designed for extreme long range? Anyway, at 50 yards, even your magnum load has had a chance to spread out, enough to miss the animal, but the shot that hits would retain killing energy. That way you get a few small holes in the pelt. For defense purposes, the magnum load would probably work great at any distance, and it appears a lot in the Hunter novels.
Matt61
Matt61
I was shaking my head yes the whole time as I read through your comment.
And I’m going to go back to to my days as a kid again and my 669 with the multiple bb’s we loaded in the barrel. Distance was a big factor if we was goin to hit that can. Farther away and you could watch the dirt fly in a bigger pattern around the he can. Move in closer and the hits would become more and the bb’s that would miss would be closer to the can.
Then if we shot at that certian distance that we new were going to have gaurenteed hits. Then throw in another factor of changing the velocity with more or less pumps. That would also tend to make the group of bb blast smaller or bigger. But one major thing that happened with Les pumps is the group of bb’s would fall drastically poi wise.
So as it goes. Everything has it’s balance of where a shot of any sort is most effective. And what we are talking about is exactly why I like the sport of shooting.
Matt61
And I don’t know how I managed to type 669.
It was suppose to say my 760.
GF1,
Back in. 10 types of pellets. 30 yards. Maximus, .22, 2,100 fill. Max. shots per fill = 20. All domes (*), Shot in order of weight progression,.. lightest to heaviest. 5 shots per group. (1″ = 25mm)
AA 13.43 11mm
HN 14.00 18mm
JSB 14.35 15mm
HN 14.66 25mm
JSB 15.89 22mm
AA 16.00 15mm
(*) Predator Metal Mag 17.0 28mm
HN 18.00 22mm
JSB 18.13 13mm
HN 21.14 23mm
Next up was 4 of the best at 50 yards. Again, shot in progression of weight.
AA 13.43 58mm
JSB 14.35 41mm
JSB 15.89 32mm
JSB 18.13 50mm
Summary,… the Maximus shoots a wide range of pellets well. On the 50 yard test, all of the JSB’s had a tighter sub group of at least 6 pellets, around 15-20mm.
I did this in WordPad, so I am not sure how it is going to look when posted,… if it post.
(not sure what I did but I got it here) At any rate, that is the test. Chris
A couple of corrections,.. I missed the AA 16.00’s at 50 yards. Next time out, I will do. And,.. all of the 50 yard test were with (10 shots).
Chris U
Well it looks like the trusty ole JSB 15.89 pellets won this time around at 50 yards.
And it seems the group at 50 yards compared to 30 yards with the 15.89’s didn’t grow as much as the others did. I was expecting to see tighter 50 yard groups with the 13.43 and 18.13 pellets from what the 30 yard groups did.
I think the weight to the size of the 15.89’s is what makes them work.
And I bet your glad you got your Shoebox compressor and guppy buddy bottle ain’t ya. That shure would of been alot of hand pumping for the shoot’n ya just did. 🙂
GF1,
Yea,.. I had high hopes for the 18.13 JSB’s at 50 yards. It should be noted too that the “novelty” pellets did not fair too well. That would be the HN Sniper’s 14.0 and 18.0 and the Predator Metal Mags. 17.0.
Yup on the JSB’s being the “go to” pellet. The 15.89’s and 18.13’s would be my #1 advice for a .22 to anyone asking for a recommendation.
And yes,… love the Shoebox and the Guppy. I like the 2000 fill of the Maximus. The Guppy goes down way!!! slower with a 2000 fill. On the fill, I will be playing with going up to 2,300. I kept it to 2,100 today just to eliminate overfill issues, without a chrony check. And, I kept it to 20 shots per fill as I noticed a definite drop in POI at 23-24 shots from prior testing.
I would say the Maximus is “worthy” of a UTG scope. That might have improved groups slightly, but the scope that came with it is plenty good for a critter getter at 30 yards. I am pretty sure on the next P.A. order, it will be getting one.
And, all of the groups were considered “good”/steady by my standards. On two of the 5 shot groups I did pull a shot and allowed a 6th. That was it on any “cheating”.
The trigger being a T shape is bit of a distraction. I may “shave” it a bit to make it more blade-like. The straighter grip is noticeable as well. A pistol grip is much more ergonomic to the hand/trigger feel. I will consider this on future purchases.
Chris U
I was going to tell you this earlier but didn’t have time. I got my Maximus trigger feeling like a 2 stage trigger.
Remember when I said I cut a couple coils off that 1/8″ diameter spring that’s directly behind the trigger blade. It’s item 7 on the Benjamin Discovery parts diagram if you want to go to their site and look. Anyway that spring is about a half inch or so long and shorter by about a 1/8″ after cutting the coils.
But here’s what I did. I found a smaller diameter spring that fits inside the factory spring that I cut the coils off of. That spring is the length of what the original spring was and it’s a lighter pressure spring. So now what happens is that lighter spring holds the trigger forward. And now when I pull the trigger it moves about a 1/4″ then stops on the original spring I cut the coils off of. Then just a slight amount of pressure and the shot breaks clean. And I also have the V shape spring bent for less pressure like you just did. And I don’t even have the added set screws modification done to mine.
What I just mentioned about cutting a couple coils off the original spring and adding the small diameter longer spring is very easy to do. And you could get additional springs if you wanted to fine tune it for your liking by cutting them to different lengths. Plus it doesn’t seem to add any additional pressure to the pull from original. If anything it’s even more lighter. Maybe wouldn’t even need to bend the V spring. Could keep it set as from the factory to hold the sear up to the striker to keep from having accidental firing of the gun from not enough pressure on the sear.
Anyway figure I would bring that up.
GF1,
Mine feels like a 2 stage too. I believe 90% of the 6# pull is coming from that V spring, 10% from the trigger return. The screws are SUPER nice. 5/8″ x 4-40.The top one will advance the trigger mech. without affecting the sear engagement. You can screw it in and actually watch the “first stage” come back. The bottom screw acts as a (super sweet) trigger stop.
Just “shaved” the trigger on the left side. Feels much better. Can’t wait to try it out. Long taper with rounded edge. Used a set of needle files. I may do more, but want to shoot it first.
And I said that this would not be a “project” gun,… Hey,.. at least it is all super easy and fast, with big payoffs! 🙂
And yea,.. there is no excuse for not getting “in there”. Simple and quick and huge differences.
Chris U
I did the 2 setscrews in that 1377/Discovery pumper I made. I don’t like the way it feels. And really not much happens when you adjust different ways.
I think the double return spring gives the trigger a much better feel than the setscrews do.
And yes that V spring for the sear is were the majority of the trigger pull pressure comes from.
And the trigger blade width doesn’t really bother me.
GF1,
Interesting. I will keep the screw comments in mind as I shoot this Summer. I thought they did a lot. I like trigger stops right after the break. Nice idea on the double spring though. Very innovative.
More puzzling is why don’t the maker’s do some of these quick and easy things from the get-go? Mmmm?,… go figure.
Chris U
Good question. Maybe they just go buy what always has been and nobody is thinking outside the box. And I’m sure it’s got to do some with that lawyer licking his chops thing.
Chris U
Oh and I think I know what that spring came from that I added to make the first stage feel.
I think it was from a old ball point pen that you click the button on top to exsposed or retract the ball point tip.
GF1,
I wonder if the ballpoint pen spring would work in the 1377 trigger spring. I think that may be just what I have been trying to figure out. I will check that out.
Don
Chris U,
Those are some nice groups. I have heard folks talking good accuracy at 100 yds with the Maximus but have not seen it first hand. I am still on the fence on getting one. I put a hammer forged barrel on my Marauder and haven’t even given it a good test yet. I must have upset the wind gods, every time I start setting up the wind comes up. I am going to give it a good try this next week.
Up at the top I left a message with RidgeRunner that I went to the Pacific Airgun Expo today. I picked up another Apache rifle. The intake valve was leaking and I put some transmission seal softener in it and planned on waiting till tomorrow to see if it did any good. I waited about an hour then tore into it. The valve was shot so I put a new seal on it and now it is working like an Apache is suppose to. I can tell it is filling more with each pump than the one I have been working on.
Speaking of shotgun shells I have been looking for some number 3 buckshot to test in the Apache rifle. They are .25 cal. I did not want to buy 5 lbs so I bought a small box (5) 20 gauge shells. There are 20 buckshot in each of the 20 gauge shells. If I remember right there are about nine 00 buckshot in a 12 gauge shell depending on the length of the shell and the ounces of shot used.
I will be testing the #3 buckshot the #4 I was using was loose in the barrel. I was not able to find any .25 caliber round balls so it will be back to buckshot. I also want to see if the Apache I picked up today is more accurate than the one I tested. The barrel sure looks much better.
Don
Don
No where to respond above so responding here.
I never thought about trying the double spring trick in a 1377 type trigger pistol grip assembly. But I think your right. I bet it would work.
I will give it a try on my next project. I am going to make me a .25 caliber 1377. Found a place that sells barrels and breeches that will mount a scope too. Plan on using my 1399 stock I have also.
So will see when I get it going. And if you try it let me know.
Benji-Don,
Thanks for the compliment on the groups. I did not think that they were that bad. I did set up a bit of a rear rest under the trigger guard to further help the steady. Other than the front rest, I shouldered the rifle with a fair bit of pressure. I do not have shooting bags. 100 yards seems like quite the stretch for the Maximus. Sure, it will send a .22 that far, but you can see what I got at 50 yards. The tighter sub groups (6-7 in each) were encouraging. That tells me some that may be me,.. and a less than perfect sight picture.
Nice on the hammer forged barrel. Marmont Militia? What caliber? I think I did check into that at one time, but had a hard time finding something in .25. Anxious to see how it does for you. The wind was nil yesterday, so no excuse there. Cloudy and 70 plus, so no sun glare issues either. Targets were 3/4″ neon stickers that I picked up at Walmart. They have ring binder reinforcement stickers in neon that are super nice and easy to use too. Look for them in office supply section.
Nice idea on using shells for shot. Makes sense to me. Nice too on getting another Apache,.. especially after all you had been through on the other one. From your above comment, it sounded as if it was not priced at all at the start. Is that common at shows? I would think that guns would at least have a price posted as to establish a starting point for negotiations.
And on that 100 yards,… I think it is possible. I also believe in what I call “Luck of the Landing”, in which all of the many factors and variables created are negated by the shots landing closer, rather than further apart. In other words, luck. To me,…. I must be able to (repeat) that over time. Only when I can repeat results will I say for sure what something can do. That goes for any gun, at any range.
Chris U
It for sure becomes hard to make repeat shots at a hundred yards and farther out. What I have found is wind plays a major factor with putting a shot in the same location time after time at those distances.
Kind of like this. I have my 100 yard target set up all the time. And when I’m shooting I will take random shots out at it with the Maximus and .25 Marauder. Usually I’ll take 3 shots then move on to another target and so on. Then I pick up the other gun and do the same. So that happens throughout my day of shooting.
What I find is say I take 3 shots at 9:00 in the morning with one gun at a hundred yards. Then when I get back to that gun after shooting others. I’ll take 3 more shots out at the hundred yard mark. Say 10:30. And these are just example times.
Well guess what happens. That next 3 shot group does not look nothing like the first 3 shot group. The group’s have to change each time around. But if you have a gun that can repeat shots that do stay closer to your aim point is what your looking far.
It takes alot more effort on my part to shoot good groups out at the longer distances. But it can be done when the conditions fall in the right place.
What I always think about is that one shot one kill saying. That’s why a good hunter or sniper knows his gun. That’s what a sniper means in a sense about doping his gun. He collects information from previous shots made and he will make those adjustments for his shot if it is close in comparison to a previous shot he has made. So yes knowing how your gun is just part of making a consistent hit.
Chris U
Oh and remember when I said I have shot better groups at farther distances than closer with the same gun and pellets and asked you to try and see.
Well that’s exactly why. Outside conditions change. And not only from day to day but minute to minute. And I’m not just talking wind.
That’s why I don’t base my shooting on one day of shooting.
An addition to the 30 yard and 50 yard testing from yesterday with the Maximus in .22. I mentioned that the JSB’s from yesterday had good sub groups, so I will list those as well. All data is 50 yards. Yesterday.
AA 13.43 58mm, no subgroup
JSB 14.35 41mm, 8@22
JSB 15.89 32mm, 6@18
JSB 18.13 50mm, 6@22
Today, I did a quick round with the AA 16.00’s that I missed yesterday. I also did a repeat of the JSB 15.89’s just for reference. Today I had steady 5 mph to my back.
AA 16.00 33mm, 8@25
JSB 15.89 35mm, 8@22
The “shaved” trigger is better. I may lighten the pull some more down from the measured 1 1/2# that it is now. And,… it for sure is getting a better scope. While do-able, the thick mil-dot lines almost covered my 3/4″ dot at 50 yards.
Chris U
At least your repeatable with the 15.89’s.
GF1,
Given the similar weights, the JSB’s landed a good inch lower. In fact, I swear that I remember JSB makes the AA pellets. They sure did not shoot the same. I could be wrong on that though. I held it to 20 shots per fill, the same as yesterday.
And on the subject of swearing what I remember,.. that seems to be a less sure bet with every passing year. 😉
Chris U
That’s what they say about the Air Arms pellets and the JSB’s.
But I will have to say that I have shot the Air Arms and JSB 10.34’s and had them shoot the same. So who knows. Maybe the 15.89 JSB’s are different than the Air Arms 16.0’s.
Did you weigh or measure the two different brands to see if there is a difference with the ones you have?
GF1,
Maybe I did at one time, but not for awhile. For all intensive purposes, the groups are the same. I will have to play with them some more and see if I can get a repeat. At 30 yards, they landed the same. I could have messed up the 1/2 dot hold over I was using, but I doubt it. That is what it looks like though. 1/2 dot on the AA and straight cross hair on the JSB’s. Like I said, I do not think so. A repeat test will tell. Raining now, so test will have to wait. It was good to get some shooting and testing in on the Maximus though. Actual POI and hold over at different yardages is next. Really though for what I got it for, 8-42 yards is pretty much dead on for a squirrel sized critter.
Chris U
My Maximus is by far the most accurate $156 gun that I believe I ever have had. Well for that matter more accurate than some of my $400 and up guns. I’m really happy with mine.
And I think you can get better groups than your getting if you do a few more things to it. But I already now before mentioning what. Your probably not going to want to do it.
GF1,
Wow!!!,… talk about a teaser! Other than our differences on trigger modification, I am not sure I know to what it is you are eluding to. You did that major “whack” job on the forend. If that is what you are talking about, then forget it. Other than that, (I am all ears). If replying, go ahead and start a new post.
Chris U
Read below.
Chris,
Speaking of a Gamo ACCU:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123865.0
RR,
Good enough deal. I will pass though. Thanks for the heads up though. If I were to purchase a GAMO, the underlever would probably be the direction I would go.
Chris U
For just a pickup and shoot gun for your 40 yards and in pesting yours is fine as you have it. But if you want to get close to that 1/2″ group at 50 yards or get better groups at 50 yards and out some changes need to be made.
First is a bipod to help make the gun hold and repeat easier and be more stable or solid I’ll call it. And you know that.
And the next thing needs to be done so you can do the last important thing which did help my paticular Maximus.
This will need done for the last thing I’ll mention. But yes the stock needs cut off about 4″ in front of the pressure gauge. What that is doing is keeping the stock off of the air tube. That air tube transfers vibration from striker when it hits the valve. Also the tube does change I believe with air pressure drop and also temperature change outside. So that kind of changes how the action sets with the stock. So if you cut the stock back it now has less area that contacts the air tube. So less chance of that variation affecting the shot.
And the last thing. This has made a difference on some guns and others it hasn’t. It did improve my Maximus groups. So now the barrel clamp band can be moved all the way back about a 1/8″ away from where the stock was cut off. It helps two things I believe from doing this. First barrel now floats and is free to occilate naturally. Plus now the barrel is clamped back farther where the resivoir tube doesn’t have as much chance to move the barrel around from the stock and air pressure changes and vibration’s.
And remember I’m just mentioning this if you do want to try to make it more accurate. I know it improved mine pretty much out at the 100 yard mark.
GF1,
Most interesting. The stock FOR SURE “clips” onto the air tube. That is quite obvious from the numerous times I have had the action out of the stock. THAT would be the first area I would look at removing. I have not studied the stock/action interface, but I will.
The barrel clamp is another issue all together. That would require stock chopping as you did,… or inletting the stock to accept the clamp.
You do remember I “shimmed” the action in the M-rod?,… without any benefit. That put the air tube fully away from any stock interaction.
As for the air tube expanding and contracting,… I am very surprised that you have not measured the air tube with a say,… 1000 fill and a 2000 fill,… or 2000 and 3000 in the case of the M-rod. That would prove or disprove your theory for sure.
All in all, very interesting. I will at the very least pull the action and look at the interface of the stock and action.
Thanks for the tips. It at least gives me something to ponder. I am afraid I would find it all but impossible to cut the stock on my new “baby”. A 40$ gun like the 880 I chopped the shroud off of was another issue.
Man,… I love this kind of stuff!!!! 🙂 ( oh yea,… notes made)
Chris U
Like I mentioned in the past and now. Some guns that I messed around with the barrel clamp band in different locations and even 2 on a gun. Didn’t make a difference and some it did. Likewise with your Mrod and the stock. I have had it improve guns and not.
And yes you would have to rout out the stock for the barrel band. You could probably shim the stock with some rubber or vinyl back behind the air pressure gauge. Remember that’s what I did with my synthetic stock .25 Marauder I have now. I moved that rubber isolation block back by the gauge. So that part of the stock forward of the gauge doesn’t contact the air resivoir tube on my Marauder.
And something else I was going to bring up. Since your Maximus is going to be a critter getter. When you happen to pick it up real quick to make the shot it’s probably going to be at a full fill. First off some guns need the valve knocked to settle and deliver the air correct after a full fill and if it sets for some time inbetween shots.
You should try this with the JSB 15.89’s that seem to be the most repeatable so far. Put you a target paper out with 3 of those small sticker binder dots like you gave me. Shoot 6 shots at each target and see if your first 6 shots are not as good a group as your other two 6 shot targets. That’s possibly why your getting your flyers on some groups and opening up your groups.
If I’m really trying for my best group I can like when we did our 100 yard .25 Mrod competition. I dry fired my gun first before I started my 10 shot group. And I kept a steady shooting pace till all 10 shots were fired. No stopping at any point of the 10 shots and starting again.
Just giving you some more to think about. 🙂
GF1,
All good advice. I did pull the stock. The air tube is straight,. BUT,.. the stock “ribbing” drops down 2mm just ahead of the gauge,.. and stays dropped off all the way to the very end. So, they have given some thought to minimal/no tube support. However, that last rib, the exposed front of the Schnabel,.. rises about 3mm. That does contact the air tube. Removal of that last 3mm. would be first. The band I would have to give some thought to. The inletting looks doable. Some of the X bracing would need to be Dremeled a bit. By not cutting the stock, I could take it all the way back to just ahead of the gauge. I would have one shot at location choice though.
And yes, I like a bi-pod. Not sure I would want to do it on the Maximus though, given the intended purpose. Nice advice on the dry fire first to let the valve get “woke up”. Makes sense.
Thanks for the advice. It has been awhile since we did any serious mod. talk. The Maximus trigger does not count. That is way too easy. More of a “slight tweak” than a proper mod.. 😉
Chris U
I probably would of done my stock on the Maximus like you just mentioned. But my thought was I was going to do it without a stock and use the 1720t pistol grip assembly and one of Dave’s RAI adapters and AR butt stocks. And the regulated Air Venturi 13 cubic inch HPA bottle. Well then I ended up with the synthetic stock back on it trying to get the factory trigger working better. Then I wanted the Air Venturi bottle back on it. Then figured the bottle was better suited for my Steel Storm.
So ended up with moving the barrel band around and found the gun liking what was done. So just left it as it is. But as far as chopping the stock. A new replacement stock will be available pretty soon from Crosman I’m sure. It just takes them a bit to get the diagrams available on a new gun. And heck the synthetic Marauder stock was only $60 bucks or so if I remember right. So the Maximus stock I’m thinking will be close in price or less. So no regret for me to chop or mod the factory stock.
Now if it was a high dollar walnut stock then that would be a different story. No chopping on it. And heck the Maximus is so cheap especially with available discounts it’s begging to be modded.
But you know me. I’ll do stuff to a brand new car if it makes it what I want. And other things for that fact. 🙂
GF1,
Ok. Sounds good and then I am outa’ here. I did pull some quick digital caliper measurements on the affected parts. Surprise,… the stock hugs the fattest part of the tube even though it does not appear so from the top. Inletting the length of the tube would be critical here. All in all, doable. A drum or ball mill for the Dremel would be the best. ” begging to be modded”,…. I like that! 🙂
Thanks again and I appreciate the time. Outa’ here. “Foamy Pop” time, eat, sleep and back to the proverbial “grindstone”.
Catch Ya’ down range,…. Chris
Chris U
You got it. Have one for me too. 😉
I broke out my Diana 46E a little bit ago. Thinking to sell it, I took the scope off and put the rear sights back on. I then took it out on the front porch with a tin of JSBs. At 25 yards off of the end of the porch there are four spinners, one 3 3/4″, one 2 3/4″, one 1 5/8″ and on 3/4″. I took a shot at the center of the big one and saw it hit low. I cranked in some elevation, took another shot and set it swinging. I took a shot at the next one and set it swinging. I lined up on the third and set it swinging also. Now for that tiny one on the end, the one I can hardly see. I lined up the sights, squeezed the trigger and it went spinning.
Every time I pull this thing out and shoot it, it becomes pretty difficult to sell.
RR
When I had that gun it was the same. The problem I had with it was me.
It was a great 25 yard and in gun. But I like my air guns to perform at the longer distances to. So saying that. Again a me problem. And just not the air gun for me.
And ain’t that funny how they can make you just keep hanging on sometimes. 😉
GF1,
I was shooting field targets at 50 yards with it last year. It is a real shooter and after I used a little Tune In A Tube, she smoothed right out. It does not seem very hold sensitive either. The only thing I have against it is it is so heavy. I am wanting something like an HW 95. I want a sproinger I can carry around in the woods easy.
RR
What pellet did it end up liking. You may of said but I forgot.
I was shooting JSB Exact Heavy yesterday. I seem to recall that it also likes the H&N Baracuda.
RR
Well glad you like it. Guess that is what matters the most.
GF1,
Yeah, but I am wanting to sell it!
RR
Have you listed it anywhere yet? Got to be somebody out there that would want it.
GF1,
Not yet. I need to slow down and catch up on things like this. That was what I was doing the other day. I took the scope off and put the rear sights back on. Then I made the mistake of shooting it some.
RR
Well you should of never pulled the trigger that’s for sure. Pun intended. 🙂
Thanks for a write up, Tom! This info is great.