by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Second-generation Benjamin Marauder in a synthetic stock.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
This report covers:
- Early start
- UTG scope a plus!
- Quiet rifle!
- The test
- Benjamin domes
- JSB Exact Kings
- Analysis
- Where do I go from here?
It’s been a month since we last looked at the .25-caliber gen 2 Benjamin Marauder. I said at the end of Part 7 that I would try the rifle at 100 yards for you. Well, today is the day.
Early start
To shoot a pellet rifle at 100 yards the wind has to be absolutely still. In Texas where I shoot that almost certainly means in the early morning, because once the sun rises the wind starts blowing. So I arrived at the range while the stars are still out and I set everything up, waiting for the dawn. No breeze was blowing on this morning, making the conditions perfect.
UTG scope a plus!
I was glad to have the UTG 2-16X44AO Accushot scope mounted on the rifle, because I learned last time that the illuminated reticle gets me shooting about 20 minutes earlier. The black crosshairs disappear against a black bullseye at 100 yards, but I found that a low-powerted red illumination made the crosshairs stand out. People ask why I can’t just shoot with the black reticle. because only a couple inches of the lines are invisible against the bull. And they are right. If I’m shooting at pop cans, that does work. But if I want to see the reticle’s location to within a quarter-inch of where it really is, illumination is the only way this early in the morning. As the sky brightened I had to increase the illumination twice until the unlit black crosshair lines could be seen.
Quiet rifle!
In an earlier report I made the remark that the gen. 2 Marauder in .25 caliber was not entirely silent. Well, after I adjusted the powerplant to the current setting, it became much quieter. I was alone at the range on this day because it was so early, so I shot without hearing protection. This was the first time I have really listened to the rifle set this way outdoors and it is very quiet. I think it would not me too loud for a large suburban back yard.
The test
The rifle is still in the RAI Modular Stock, which means it’s still mounted on the UTG rubber armored folding metal bipod. I shot off a concrete shooting table, using the bopod legs to support the rifle. I knew from the last two tests that the rifle is now shooting accurately at 50 yards for 2 magazines-worth of shots. That’s two 8-shot groups. I filled the rifle to 2900 psi and started the test. In case you don’t remember, 2900 psi is the perfect fill pressure for the way the rifle is currently set up.
Benjamin domes
The first pellets tested were the .25-caliber Benjamin domes that have no brand name. Five of the 8 pellets went into a group measuring 1.883-inches between centers, which is pretty good. But 3 more shots opened that to 3.171-inches. When I recovered the group I noticed that all the pellets had torn the paper. That indicated they were yawing (traveling in a tipped position) as they flew downrange. Since I was shooting at 100 yards in the early dawn, I could not see the individual pellet holes as they appeared, so I don’t know the order in which the 3 stray shots were fired.
At 100 yards 8 Benjamin domed pellets went into a group that measures 3.171-inches between centers. Five pellets are in 1.883-inches.
JSB Exact Kings
Now it was time to try the JSB Exact Kings. These pellets were slightly more accurate at 50 yards than the Benjamin domes. The first 8 pellets, which was the second magazine on the fill made a group that measures 5.43-inches. It is a very vertical group, with 6 pellets landing in 2.367-inches and 5 in 1.573-inches.
Eight JSB Exact Kings landed in a vertical group measuring 5.43-inches at 100 yards. Five of them are in 1.573-inches.
Then I filled the rifle to 2900 psi and shot another group of 8. This time 6 pellets made a 1.428-inch group and 2 more opened it to 3.927-inches.
Eight JSB Exact Kings landed in a vertical group measuring 3.927-inches at 100 yards. Six of them are in 1.428-inches.
As with the Benjamin domes, the JSB Exact Kings also tore the paper, and always in the same direction. So they were flying in a yawed orientation, as well.
Analysis
It’s too easy to say the first pellets made the smaller group and the final ones opened it up. Since there wasn’t enough light, I couldn’t see what was happening, so I will assume the stray pellets could have been shot at any time in the string.
The fact that there is a small group and a couple strays every time tells me the rifle is on the edge of stability at 100 yards. Even though it’s dead-on at 50, the pellets destabilize as they fly farther. What that tells me is the rifle has to be tuned to shoot 100 yards with accuracy. The small sub-groups in 3 out of 3 attempts tells me the rifle does want to shoot.
Where do I go from here?
If I was interested in shooting my Marauder at 100 yards I would have to adjust the tune somewhat. I’m guessing the hammer stroke and the hammer spring tension have to be tweaked. I think the pellet needs to go a little faster to do what I want. And then I need to test the results of that adjustment at 100 yards.
After that would I need to re-test at 50 yards, to ensure I haven’t lost anything at that distance by making the adjustments. Or, I could just leave the rifle set where it is. I have other more powerful .25-caliber rifles that already give me better groups at 100 yards. It might be nice just to have a nice quiet medium-powered .25 for shots out to 50 yards. I can think of my Marauder as a “go-to” rifle if I leave it set up that way.
B.B.
Seems many of the pellets are yawing. Isn’t this often caused by an unequally crowned barrel? Would this rifle befit from one?
Thanks,
-Yogi
Yogi,
No, the crown is not inn question here because of the good groups at 50 yards. This is a stability issue.
B.B.
Thank you for the 100yd. test. It is always a treat. The illuminated reticle works nice for me when target shooting into a dark woods where the target is 60′ in and I am outside the woods in a somewhat shady area. As for sub-groups,…I can relate. Being fairly new, I chalk it up to me not doing “my job” in 1 form or another though.
The exception or question to those “flyers”,……what if I had the pelletgage and weighed the pellets? As for any other testing, that might be a good one. Bring it back to 75yds, and do a little weigh and head sort test. After all,…those flyers can not have anything to with any errors on your part,..right? 😉 That’s what I keep telling myself anyways. 🙂
Chris,
I can assure you that these sub groups are not due to the shooter. I went very slow and only fired when the shot was perfect. There is some other dynamic at work here, because each 8-shot group has a sub group. If that happened once in three tries I would be suspicious of my shooting, but not three out of three.
B.B.
BB,
Nice test at 100 yd. I think Chris agrees that the outliers are not shooter related but are instead pellet-related. Isn’t it true that tiny differences make themselves more apparent at longer distances?
Maybe Chris (and others like myself) want to see if pellet diameter or weight can explain the outliers.
Note that I’m using “outliers” rather than “fliers” since we call “fliers” (i.e. The shooter knows there was a technique issue during that shot.)
The suggestion to try 75yd may be to see if the shorter distance will eliminate yaw to allow for a cleaner test of pellet diameter or weight.
Is there a pelletgage for 0.25 caliber? Would it help if one of your readers volunteered to sort pellets for you? (I have access to analytical balances at work but don’t own the pellets you shot for today’s blog.)
Sincerely,
Jim in Chapel Hill
PS. I’m looking forward to your continuation of the blog on 10-meter pistol. I bought a FWB C10 from Carel
Jim,
What you are implying without saying it is that if I shot sorted pellets at 100 yards these results might change.
I don’t have a .25 caliber Pelletgage, and I ran out of JSB King pellets during this test. If I were to perform another 100-yard test I would have to acquire a gage to sort the pellets and I need my pellet order to come in. I do have enough Benjamin domes to run another test, so perhaps I could structure it that way.
I think there might be some merit to further testing, but I’m still convinced that the rifle as tuned is not set up for 100 yards. My range does not offer a 75-yard option (because of the location of the earth berms), so I have to stick with 100 yards.
I will think about it.
B.B.
Jim,
Yes, there is a .25 caliber Pelletgage.
What more can I do with the FWB model 2 pistol?
I have a Morini 10-meter pistol and an FWB P44 pistol coming to me. When I get them I plan to do complete reports, plus a 10-meter pistol primer.
B.B.
With that many 10m pistols needing to be attended to I think there’s gonna be one that really needs to be in competition.
🙂
BB,
I looked back over the Model 2 pistol 3-part blog, and you’re right that you’ve covered the pistol quite thoroughly.
I guess I got it into my head that you were going to keep us updated on the process needed to get back towards your old pistol shooting form. As a new 10-meter pistol owner, I am quite impressed at how much more difficult it is to shoot a pistol compared compared to my FWB 300s when its rested (i.e. not offhand – I’ve got a long way to go before I show anyone my offhand shooting!). I thought I’d be learning as a new shooter as you described how an experienced 10-meter pistol shooter got back into form.
By the way, I’m the one that was asking for recommendations about used 10-meter air pistols last year. I was trying to make up my mind because I wasn’t set up for CO2, and you “pulled the trigger” on the Model 2 before I got my “ducks in a row!” No worries though, that taught me a valuable lesson about hesitating (don’t!) so when Carel put up the FWB C10 a while later, I jumped on it! Your 3-part series on the Model 2 helped me immensely when my C10 came in – so many thanks for writing it!
One thing that I did figure out about CO2. If you aren’t set up with a bulk tank, don’t let that keep you from buying a bulk-fill CO2 pistol/rifle. You can buy a paint ball canister (~$20), and have it filled at your local sporting goods shop for less than $5. Buy a paintball to CGA320 (regular USA CO2 fitting) adapter (~$30 on eBay), and you’ve got yourself a tiny bulk tank. I’ve got a 20lb bulk tank now, and use the paintball tank because its more convenient.
One question for you machinists out there. CO2 fitting for USA is CGA320 but for Germany it’s DIN 477 no. 6; although I was able to screw the German fill adapter onto the male CGA320 (just like BB did to his bulk CO2 tank) the fit is a little sloppy because the outside diameter of the USA fitting is 21mm and the DIN 477 specifies 22mm (threads seem the same otherwise). This means that there is less thread from the male CGA320 to fit the female DIN477 fill adapter, right? Does this matter for CO2 which has a pressure of ~850 psi. I don’t want that fill adapter shooting across my room one day.
Sincerely,
Jim in Chapel Hill
ps. really looking forward to hearing about your new 10-meter pistols!! So glad you’re getting the P44 😉
Jim,
I promise that there will be a teaching component to the 10-meter pistol series I mentioned. I even have at least one video in mind.
B.B.
In firearms, bullet yaw is usually a function of barrel twist, or of the bullet jacket failing because of too much twist or damage to a thin jacket from rough lands. Is it possible that a 1 to 15 or even 14 twist barrel (assuming that the Benjamin barrel is a 1 to 16 twist) would stabilize the pellet? As a rule longer bullets require faster twists to stabilize them. I don’t recall any yaw discussion back in your article on twist but did you look at it without commenting about it?
M Boyd,
I never mentioned the twist rate, but it is almost always 1:16 in an airgun barrel. Different rates are given, but often they result from faulty measuring.
Yes, a faster twist might stabilize the pellets out to 100 yards.
B.B.
I should have been a little clearer as to which article I was referring to. The twist article I was referring to was one you ran sometime back when you looked at twist rate in relation to velocity and I think group size. My memory may be missing some facts.
B.B.,
The shooter related comment was a poke at me, not you. I can assure you that I have shooter related issues. Like I said, last winter, shooting different pellet types, I could see a difference. Now instead of 1″ groups with 15.89’s, I now get one 3/8″ hole or less at 41″,…so progress is being made. They all look good at 41′ now.
You seemed to wonder what else you could do. Weigh and head sort was all I could think of. Plus moving in some. 50yds. would still work. Just a suggestion since it is now one of your “go-to-guns”.
One last suggestion,…..show that modded M-rod as is and not the stock one. While there is no argument that the M-rod is a shooter, it needs help in the looks department. Your mods. are one of the first things I would have to do if I ever got one.
B.B.,
I was thinking about what you said needing to speed up the pellets @100yds and remember that as children, we all had toy spinning tops. To keep them upright they had to be spun at a certain minimum speed and as they began to slow down you can see them starting to wobble before finally stopping on their sides. I can see the relationship between spinning tops and spinning pellets.
Pete
Pete,
That’s exactly what is happening!
B.B.
B.B.,
But wouldn’t you need a greater twist rate to increase the spin as opposed to a faster fps?
G&G
G&G,
Either one works. The twist rate and the velocity both affect the rate of spin. Since you can’t change the twist rate of a rifle that’s been built, change the velocity to increase the spin.
B.B.
BB
This my 2 cents.
But I believe that it is yawing like you say and it probably is because of loosing stability. But if it was indeed happening from stability lose yaw. Wouldn’t the pellet hit the paper with the pellets pointing in different directions not all facing the same way?
I think the pellet velocity does need to be faster for longer distance shooting and a heavier weight pellet also. And here is something that I believe helps with longer distance shooting. The pellet overall legnth should be longer. I think that makes the air passing by the pellet keep the pellet fly straight. Of course to the point when the pellet starts slowing down.
And one last thing. I don’t typically like pointed pellets. But I use the .25 caliber Barracudas in my modded Marauder. They aren’t really pointed pellets but more of a semi-pointed round nose head. I think that little bit of point helps keeps the pellet pointed forward better. Again probably as long as possible till the velocity slows down. I think with the round nose pellets the air allows the pellet to move or yaw.
So to round it all up a long, semi-pointed head and heavier pellet flying at a higher velocity is the trick to long range pellet shooting.
And I don’t know if anybody has ever noticed on the H&N tins. They have a little spot on the bottom of the lid of the tin the pellets come in. It shows hash marks I guess I’ll call them that rates the pellet for Distance and Precision. I think it goes up to 5 marks on each. The Baracudas are rated at 4 for Distance and 4 for Precision. That was a factor in why I chose to try the Baracudas.
BB I say more tuning and trying a different pellet for your long range shooting. Like I said just my 2 cents. But as you say if its what you want out of your Marauder and your happy great. All I know is my.25 caliber Marauder is a way boring gun to shoot at 70 yards and in. After 70 yards is when it starts getting fun to shoot.
GF1,
The pellets are yawing — not oscillating around their axis. They are flying with a fixed tilt.
B.B.
BB
If that’s the case then something has to be kicking it off axis for it to fly that way. Usually when a pellet slows down it should start wobbling.
Maybe from when it leaves the barrel or somewhere in the pellets flight when it does start slowing down the pellet starts kicking over. Then a little slower the wobble.
You should try your Marauder one more time how it’s tuned with the Barracudas just to see how they do in your gun. Then we would have something to compare to with the different shaped pellet.
G&G,
Ever see a gyroscope that is tilted as it spins? That’s what I’m talking about.
Air pressure is what starts the yaw, but the pellet’s spin is what holds it steady.
B.B.
BB
You replied to me but said G&G.
Yes that’s what I mean. So if velocity slows down the pellet will start becoming unstable.
And the skirt and shape and weight of the pellet will be part of that determining factor of what velocity the pellet will become unstable at also.
BB
Meant skirt, waste and shape of pellet.
GF1,
Sorry about the confusion.
No, when the velocity slows, the spin doesn’t slow. The spin continues regardless of velocity.
B.B.
BB
I guess what I’m thinking about is your gyroscope example.
Like how it spins when its tilted. But also when the gyroscope finally gets so slow before it stops it starts wobbling around its axis then fals over.
Do you think that’s what could be happening to the pellet as the velocity starts to drop off at some point in the pellets flight.
Maybe at different distances because the volicty is always decreasing the pellet will start flying with yaw or wobble as it gets slower. And the big thing it depends what distance that yaw could start at and if your target is out at that distance where the yaw starts and the velocity is decreasing.
Maybe the yaw doesn’t happen till the end of the trajectory once velocity has dropped.
GF1,
The other day we talked about the UTG Weaver rings and pin sizes and contact. I just tore one apart. The round pin diameter is .182″. It protrudes only .063″. Half would be .091″. I think we agreed that + half diameter would be needed for a successful round pin application. Ok for PCP’s, but not for springers.
As it turns out, the Weaver Quad-Locks are only offered in 1″ ring size. Just keeping you and others updated. I am looking for 30mm. Weaver type for the 30mm. UTG scope I have on the TX. Preferably the square pin type. Even considered the Burris Signature series with the offset rings/inserts. Turns out the offset rings/inserts are only offered in 1″.
Like I said, the whole goal here is to get the scope back to optical center, hence the drooper TN T06 mount. I think that it is about a full turn up from optical center now.
In the link GF1 shared I found one set that also came with 1″ inserts.
When I first saw that question the first company to come to mind was UTG.
Chris,USA
Can you take the square cross pins out of the weaver mounts and modify the holes in the UTG mounts to accept the square cross pins so that it will not try to ride up the edges of the slots in the drooper mount.
Without the two rings in my hand I cannot tell if that would be a viable option but is something to look at to solve the issue you are having with the round pins riding up in the slots.
BD
Chris, USA
I just checked my UTG mounts that came with my 30mm scopes and the cross pin is staked in the adjusting nut end so it cannot be removed so the weaver square pins will not work unless you cut the cross pin on the UTG mounts to remove them and then the weaver square pins may be to short to allow enough thread engagement to be tightened properly.
It was a thought and just don’t want to destroy one of my UTG mounts to find out if it will work although I do not like piccatinny rail type mounts unless there is no other choice. Prefer dovetail in all instances on an air gun if at all possible.
BD
Buldawg
That was pretty much my reply to Chris yesterday about preferring dovetail over Weaver mounts.
I think his main concern was he put a drooper mount on the LGU to keep the scope as close to zero optic center on the turrets. So that’s why he is wanting to stay with the Weaver mounts. And he wants to do the same now with the Tx I believe.
Buldawg
That was my exact same question to him yesterday.
Why aren’t the clamps on the Weaver rings holding the rings down so the the pin doesn’t ride up.
I told him I have had those kind of rings with those round pins mounted on NP guns as well as magnum springers and never had that happen.
That’s why I wondered if the height of the Weaver rail notches weren’t tall enough or the pins on the rings were to high up.
Look on Mondays blog of this week. I think towards the middle to the end is where we were talking back and forth about this.
BD,
See comment to GF1 below. Thanks for the help. Chris
Chris USA,
I’m still not sure this is what your looking for but Leapers has 30mm Weaver rings.
G&G
G&G,
Check out reply to GF1 below to give you a better idea of what I am trying to do.
Thanks, Chris
DN-T06 correction. Not TN-T06. A weaver drooper mount. Same as on the LGU now.
Chris USA
So what do you need right now for the Tx? A taller Weaver ring to make the scope up higher from the barrel.
What height 30mm Weaver ring do you want for the drooper mount on the Tx? Is that what you want to accomplish? A higher mounted scope on the Tx.
Tell me how high of a 30mm Weaver ring you want.
GF1
I figured he was wanting to keep the reticle close to center in the scope but don’t understand why the rings cannot be secured enough to keep the pins from trying to ride up on the edges of the slots in the drooper mount.
I would think a 30 mm RWS drooper mount would work on either gun quite well and allow the reticles to stay close to center as well as not move on the dovetails.
Even a sportsmatch mount like I have on my d48 would work also and come in high configurations.
BD
Chris USA
Here look at this. There is some scopes listed first just scroll down past them and you see the rings.
/search-results-ext?Ntt=30mm+weaver+rings&sid=1375A617A415&N=0&Ntk=primary&q=30mm+weaver+rings&cx=002970863286801882398:jlcminxfwdw&cof=FORID:11;NB:1&saSearch
Chris USA
There’s a bunch of scope rings on that link I posted. Just click on the progresive pages after you pull up the link. They have scopes and such mixed in but they list alot of rings.
GF1,
I will check out PA again. I may even call them to ask if any brands offer the square pin. You are always talking about keeping the scope as low as possible also. So I am trying to keep that in mind as I proceed. With the 11mm. rings now, high I think, the objective sits about 7mm. above the barrel with the cap assy. on. From dovetail to scope center is about 37mm. I could try med. with the 7mm. clearance for lower mount. But that would do nothing for droop or optical center. I do not have a set of 11mm./30mm. med. rings anyways.
I did just check the med. UTG Weavers mounted on the DN TO6 rail. There is 0 clearance between the 2. So even though the pin may not protrude past half, it should never ride over. From dovetail to ring center though is 48mm. (+11mm. from the 37mm it is now at) with the med. UTG weavers. That’s not the direction I am wanting to go. So, low UTG weavers may be the fix there.
Finally, the DN T06 on the LGU with the Weaver brand weaver rings, in medium, are putting the scope center at 35mm. above the dovetail, with 6mm. objective clearance. (The center of the turret mound sits only 1mm. off the rail), so this is the lowest that this scope can be mounted using the DN T06. In a nut shell, this combo just plain worked.
I will get it figured out. The low UTG weavers may be just what I do. Or even extra lows if there is such a thing. With the med. UTG weavers on the DN T06, there is 15mm. clearance from ring bottom to rail top. So give up 1-2mm. for the turret center and there is still a lot of room for the scope to come down. Of course until the objective hits the barrel.
Thanks for the suggestions and help, Chris
GF1,
I think a bullet or pellet does work like that, but it’s flight time is so short that it doesn’t have the time for all of that to happen. But if it hits a twig enroute and if it is almost unstable, then I think hitting the twig wil speed things up for destabilization.
B.B.
BB
You know that makes me think. I wonder if there is a reminder in all this.
Maybe when we are shooting pellets out of air guns. The more hold we are having to put in a shot a the longer distances. The more chance for destabilization. Maybe more chance for eratic groups.
I would say if a person was having to put 3 or 4 mildots of hold over into the shot. That means its in that down hill arch of the trajectory. So getting closer to the point of destabilization.
Depending on the magnification a person was using that could be 10-20 inches or more of up hold to make the pellet hit on target.
I don’t think you said on this outing how much hold over you needed. You did mention that when you tested the AirArms TDR at 100 yards. Or did you just aim at the bullseye on the target and let it hit low on the paper.
I would be interested in knowing how many inches low the pellet was hitting compared to zero on the reticle.
Wow, I think the strays are less important than getting 2 or 3 MOA at 100 yards with an air rifle. That is amazing. Is .25 caliber more accurate at this distance than .22? And that is a good reminder about the illuminated reticle. While it looks cool, I thought it was either for looks only or for low-light shooting that I don’t do. However, this would be a way to make use of my black bull targets when they are far enough away that I cannot see the colored center. I believe I use the exact same scope on my Anschutz, and it works great.
Matt61
B,B.
Hi,It;s been a long time since I have hassled you with my questions.Have you enjoyed your vacation?:)
I’m so glad you did this Test.This is right where I am.I have my gen.1 Marauder .25 cal.adjusted as well as I could without mods.At a 3000p.s.i.fill I get an avg.860f/s with a 3% spread over 12 shots with a 25.4 grain pellet. I have not tried it on targets yet as I don’t have the scope zeroed correctly yet.(too much wind)
But the problem is that I have my heart set on shooting 75 to 140 yards.This won’t do it.So I was looking at the Hatsan Carnivore in .30 cal.Now the B.C.of the two pellets available Is precious little better than that for the .25 cal.pellets, but the gun has good power.I couldn’t find anything available off the shelf that could be swagged,but there is a mold co.with a couple of designs in catalogue.The question is;Do you think this would work?One is solid with a taper to a flat top, and two bands to catch the rifling.It;s barely longer than wide and weighs just under 45 grain in lead alloy.Pure lead would bring that up a little.The second is quite similar at 50ish grain.
I don’t know what the twist rate of the rifle is,especially since it is a big bore.Ideally a hollow base would be better and easier to stabilize.Also I really would prefer a domed tip,but I don’t see anyone who can make that and I don’t think I could ever afford that.Do you have any suggestions?-Tin Can Man-
TCM,
Good to hear from you.
No, I don’t think a solid bullet will work. I don’t know that, of course, but all my experimentation with solid bullets has taught me they usually will not stabilize at airgun velocities. They are also extremely hard to load.
B.B.
GF1
I checked some of my piccatinny mount rings and see what Chris is talking about the pin barely stick below the surface of the underside of the ring but I don’t think the pin is really designed to prevent rearward movement of the ring but rather just allow for a exact placement of the ring from one gun to another by using the same groves in the piccatinny rail of different guns.
I agree with you on the rings if secured tight enough should not move as my Venom has a piccatinny rail on it and the rings do not move or caused any damage to the slots of the rail and it id a NP gun.
In his last post to you I believe he has it figured out what he needs to get the scope where he wants it so we will see.
BD
BD
Go to Mondays blog and find the link I posted for Chris about picatinny and Weaver rails.
The link gives alot of dimensions about the rail and I believe how it’s changed at some point in time. I’m going to see if I can find the link and post it here. Here it is.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatinny_rail
GF1
Just read thru the link and from what I gather is the main difference is the Weavers were not designed to a set standard like the piccatinny rail is so some accessories may or may not fit a weaver on one gun as compared to another gun that and Weavers were more of a screwed on short rail that allowed mounting of optic’s on a guns receiver that other wise had no provision for such mounting from the factory unless screw holes were drilled to mount the weaver rails on the receiver.
Piccatinny are generally machined to the top of the receiver or welded on and therefore require no threaded holes in the top of the receiver to install optics or accessories and are made to a preset standard of dimensions as well so all accessories will fit any gun.
I believe Chris just needs to go with a RWS or Sportsmatch one piece mount and all will be good as they both come in medium and high and 1″ and 30mm scope diameters.
BD
BD
That’s what I was trying to explain to Chris on Monday about the set standard between Picatinny and Weaver rails.
That’s what I hoped he seen with the link I posted. There could be variations between the rails and and rings. And the way one ring could be at one end of the tolerance and the rail at the other end of the tolerance. Then that could possibly put the pin too high in the notch.
That’s what’s hard about buying rings to fit mounts or adapters. You really don’t know how well they match up until you have them in hand to test fit.
Air guns is the same scenario as working on cars. Just because they say a part is the same and is suppose to fit don’t mean it will. And I know you know what I mean.
GF1
100% on all you said and is why I prefer to stay with dovetails if at all possible since they seem to be at a closer set of tolerances so there is less variability in them as far as fitment is concerned.
It seems that Weaver/Piccatiney are more suited/used in the powder burner world than air guns. You do never know till you have them in hand and was the case even with the dovetail Sportsmatch mount I put on my D48 as I had to machine the center of the lower section out to clear the Hawke scopes turret housing so it was the right droop but the scope did not fit without modifying the mount.
Its difficult to order online and be sure you get something that works for your application without some trail and error situation arising. Its also the same with cars as I have had parts not fit even though they were sold for the identical car you were using them on since there are running changes made on assy lines all the time that can take up to a year to be updated in all the resources used to look up parts.
BD
GF1, See comment to BD76 at bottom. Chris
Chris, USA
I understand your measurement by using the dovetail as a reference but you should be really measuring from barrel bore to ring saddle parting line as most rings if not all are designed to be at very close to 1/4″ difference in height from low up to high so should be viewed as difference’s of 1/4″ over the barrel bore.
So your scopes should measure out to 1 1/2″ and up above the bore depending on the rings used, but the use of the drooper mount will change that and I am not sure if it is a standard thickness like 1/2″ or a metric thickness but is why I like to stay with dovetail mounts. Its also why I suggested a RWS or Sportsmatch one piece drooper mounts since they can be had in medium and high configurations in 1″ and 30MM scope diameters and would resolve both your droop issue as well as the ring movement issue and they have two stop pins in the mount so you could just use the one in the rear of the mount in the rear hole in the action or even drill a second hole in the action to utilize both pins for more security in non movement of scope or mount.
BD
BD76 and Gunfun1,
Thanks for all the help and info guys. I decided on 2 rings that P.A. offers. PY-A-4620 and 2449.
the 1st. looks really low with out the 1″ inserts and the 2nd. looks to be a bit higher. I am getting the 2nd. incase the 1st. causes the objective to hit. The 1st. is very near to the height of the Weaver brand weaver mounts in medium that worked on the LGU. The DN T06 is perfect on the LGU BD76 and the mounts you recommended. Thanks. Between the 2 listed choices, the TX ought to end up real close to the same.
One thing for sure, a low in one brand can be way different in height from a low in another brand. By the way, #1 list the height at .93″ I believe. That is not the case from the picture. It looks a lot closer to .25″ which is real close to what the Weaver brand rings are.
Just need to put the order in. Mmmmmm,….what else do I “need”????? 😉 Thanks again guys, Chris
Chris USA
Hope it works out. Let us know.
Chris,USA
I believe either one of those mounts should work well to keep the scope as low as possible and stay put on the drooper mount. I like the fact that the AIM rings are 1′ or 30mm which makes them very versatile for any scope and the .98″ saddle height is referring to the height from the ring parting line to the bottom of the ring base so it is 24.89mm from the top of the where the rings sit on the drooper mount to the center of the scopes tube so with a 30mm tube scope you will have the lower radius of the scope 14.89mm above the drooper mount so just add the drooper mounts height above the action to the 14.89mm or 15mm for ease of calculations and it will tell you just how far above the action the scopes tube will be.
Then just subtract that number from half the diameter of the objective bell and it will tell you if there is going to be an interference issue with the top of the action and scope objective bell.
Hope that helps and let us know how it works out and which rings you use.
BD
BD76,
Thank you for that. I thought that most rings were rated by height at the bottom of the saddle. Either way works, just change the math around a bit. I guess the biggest thing is that “some” measurement is given and explained. Not always the case.
With the calculations, the objective should sit 3.3mm above the barrel with AIM’s. It does not get much better than that.
You and GF1 were saying that you thought that 11mm. mounts were just fine. I like the fact that the adapter having 4 3/4″ contact and 4 screws VS 2 rings at 1 7/8″ total contact. As long as the adapter has a stop pin, which it does, to me that is more solid. Then the ring(s) to the adapter on a weaver mount, which is solid. So the only weak point left is the scope to rings, which you have with 11mm. or Weaver rings anyways. So as for the mount to gun, this seems to be a step towards improvement. 4 screw caps on either, of course.
Thanks again, Chris
Chris USA
That is true about having more clamping area with the adapter on the dove tail and then mount your Weaver rings to the dove tail adapter.
And I know your whole purpose of why you want the adapter. The optical centering. But does that adapter have a set screw in it that will go in the sçope stop hole. How does that adapter stay in place and not keep sliding backwards when you shoot?
You know if your shooting in close like you always do (25-35 yards). You could probably go to a lighter pellet for both guns and you wouldn’t need the droop adapter. You would have a flatter trajectory with lighter pellet shooting faster. You should be closer to optical center with the lighter pellet than the heavier pellet.
You should get some lighter pellets and try them. Don’t re-zero your scope. Just aim for your bullseye as normal. I bet your pellet will hit higher. So you would have to turn your elevation turret down. I don’t know how low your guns were shooting when you had them optical center before the drooper mounts.
But that is a way to not have to use your droop mount.
Let me know what you think.
Chris USA
And of course it depends on scope height and what distance your zeroed at.
If you still haven’t messed around with Chairgun you really, really need to. It would answer alot of your questions about what height scope ring you need and what distance to zero at. It should keep you close to zero scope center on the reticle.
GF1,
All very good points. Last go round on testing had the lighter pellets doing worse than the 15.89’s and 18.13’s. Got AA 13.43 and 16.00 and JSB 14.35’s, plus some HN’s from previous orders. This order was 2- 18.13, 5- 15.89 and the heavy 18.00 HN Snipers,1.
As for Chairgun, yes, yes, yes,….I do. The new laptop got it transferred over from the old one but I can not get it to come up. Even tried a new down load. Will try some more.
As for the mount, it has 2 set/stop screws. For the TX, the rear one is the one to use. The scope, has never been optically centered. That’s the UTG 3-12 side AO. You may remember the first go at it did not end well, but that was full up/down. BB said to back the lock rings off more and it does give a much better feel. I will not be doing the full up and full down, so no worries. Just optical center.
I will keep you posted and I will try lighter pellets again this spring. Chris
Chris USA
Ok let me know what happens if you get to try it before spring.
🙂
Chris,USA
Sorry for the late reply as I have not been feeling well.
I thought that all rings were measured from the bottom of the saddle as well but there is no way those AIM mounts could be a low mount at almost one inch of height so it only made sense that they measure from the ring parting line and not the bottom of the saddle.
Yea a clearance of 3.3mm is about as good as it gets but remember the drooper mount will place the front of the scope a little closer to the action than if it was a flat mount so it will even closer than 3.3mm and hopefully will just clear so you are right on top of the action.
The drooper mount does have more contact surface area than two 11mm mounts would have and a single piece mount would be about the same as the drooper mount as far as contact area and most have 4 screws as well ( some only 3 screws ). Its not so much the fact that one has more surface area for clamping with than the other as long as the stop pin is engaged in the hole and the dovetail clamp screws are tightened evenly both styles should stay put equally well. I have not had either style move on me but I am on the heavy handed side when it comes to tightening of screws and after 45 years being a mechanics I have a very good feel for just how tight to go but you are right that as long as all stop pins and clamp screws are tight the weak link is the scope tube moving in the rings. If the rings don’t come with some form of tape in them I use some gorilla brand 3/4″ wide duct tape cut to fit the saddles so the scope has a cushion of tape and it helps the tube from moving in the rings as well.
BD
Just broke out the 1077 and this gun would be crazy accurate with a scope! Open sights put all 12 in a hole about the size of my fingernail.
It’s pretty temperature sensitive but that’ll be okay come May. I just hope it’s warm enough come February 17 so the boys can enjoy it as soon as it’s opened. Gonna throw in a couple tins of pellets and a 15 pack of Co2 and pellgun oil but Daddy can worry about optics.
Reb,
Ahh! The 1077. Now THERE is a real airgun value!
B.B.
I’ll probably get around to getting myself a wood stocked one after give this one away, I started putting together an order last night
Too bad the 88gr adapter is no longer available..
I just received my new synrod 25 as an anniversary gift from my wife.
Marauder25,
Welcome to the blog.
And congratulations on your anniversary.
B.B.
I just received my new synrod 25 as an anniversary gift from my wife. I mounted a vortex crossfire 6-18 x44 in a set of medium rings. After adjusting the cheekpiece and swabbing any excess oil from the bore I began the process of pumping the rifle wit the Benjamin hand pump. This wasn’t as bad as I have heard. I did not count how many pumps it took to get to 2000 psi, but from 2000 to 3000 it took about 62 pumps and about 10 minutes (not rushing). I have heard some people say that the gauges on the gun and pump varied by as much as 500 psi. When the pump gage reads 3000psi the gun gauge reads just over 3000 psi, Less than 100 psi difference. With the gun pumped and ready I set up the Oehler 35 chrony , stuck out some targets at 25 yards and went to work.
The first shot after mounting the scope hit five inches low and one inch left of point of aim. The trigger as shipped from the factory seemed a bit on the heavy side (felt like 3-4 pounds) and a little rough just before the break. perhaps this will smooth out over time. It took four shots to bring the rifle on the bull so I pumped it back to a full 3000 psi and started some groups. My pellet of choice was the 25.4 grain exact king as recommended by most bloggers on this site. I fired two five shot groups and one six shot group as I watched the chrony print the data. The first group out of the rifle measured .400” outside to outside for a group size of .150”. The next two groups were nearly as tight with the six shot group coming at about .220 center to center. The chronograph numbers for the sixteen shots were 815,816,819,820,822,822,825,825,829,826,821,822,824,819,818,and 815 for a mean of 821 feet per second and 38 foot pounds of energy average. Remaining pressure on the gun gauge was just under 2300 pounds. I am not an expert on the Marauder but this seems pretty consistent. I have made no modifications at all to the rifle, it is bone stock. Besides adjusting the trigger does anyone have any recommendations for improvements (o-ring barrel bands, debouncers etc,) or should I just leave well enough alone? I took pictures of everything but I don’t know how to post them on this site.
Marauder25,
What timing! I just sent my Marauder off for a special tune that I saw and tested at the 2016 Pyramyd AIR Cup. I will be starting a report on that in a couple weeks.
B.B.
Great! I will be looking forward to seeing that. I will adjust my trigger and start some 50 yard groups. I think I will set up the chrony at the 50 yard mark and see what remaining velocity the pellets have at that distance. I have some 31 grain barracuda and 34 grain JSB heavies I will try too. Are the Polymag shorts any good in these guns?
Marauder25,
I have found Polymag pellets in a .25 Marauder okay but not great.
B.B.
B.B.-
Are you familiar with the WAR SSG for the gen 2 marauder?
This little gadget is supposed to really increase shot count by reducing hammer bounce and reduce noise supposedly at the same time without the bolt binding associated with the plunger style debouncer.
Marauder25,
Never heard of it.
The Gen II Marauder is supposed to have a debounce device built in, isn’t it?
B.B.
I don’t know. I just saw it advertised and was wondering if it had any merit.
the Gen II has a factory depinger from what I understand.
The item is at the bottom of the page on the WAR store webpage.