by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Second-generation Benjamin Marauder in a synthetic stock.
This report covers:
- Introduction
- RAI modular stock
- Leapers parts
- New Leapers scope
- Past Marauder reports
- Why this project?
- Adjustments
- Trigger
- Power
- The basics
Introduction
This is the beginning of a very long test series. I’ve just purchased a second-generation Benjamin Marauder in .25 caliber for several reasons. First, I have read in so many places that the .25-caliber second-generation rifle is extremely accurate. It has a Green Mountain barrel that many people say is the bomb. I have tested the first-generation Marauder in .25 caliber and found it to be a very nice PCP that will reliably produce one-inch 10-shot groups at 50 yards. While that’s good, it’s not exactly what I would call the bomb, so I want to see if there’s a difference with this second-generation gun.
RAI modular stock
I also want to mount the Marauder in a modular stock from R. Arms Innovations. I saw that stock at the 2015 Malvern airgun show in April and made arrangements with Dave Rensing to get one for this test.
R. Arms Innovations modular stock for the second-generation Benjamin Marauder.
Leapers parts
There are a lot of UTG parts that go on that stock that Leapers has provided for this test. The modular stock calls for them, and some are very exotic — namely, the folding butt. I’ll cover all of those parts in detail when I mount them on the modular stock.
New Leapers scope
Leapers also sent me one of their brand-new UTG Accushot 2-16×44 Tactical scopes for this project. Yes — I did say 2 to 16 power! I showed you this scope in the 2015 SHOT Show report (see Day 2) and mentioned that Leapers also has a new 1-8x and a 3.5-28x that will be out this year. The 2-16x is hitting the market right now, and Pyramyd AIR will have them in stock very soon.
For those who are new to the shooting sports, a variable scope with 8x magnification ratio is very special. The cheapest 1-8x scope until now has cost over $1,500. Leapers already sells their UTG Accushot 1-8×28 CQB for a fraction of that.
There are now other 2-16x and 3-28x scopes coming on the market, but they carry very stiff pricetags. Those who know Leapers know they won’t put their name on a scope until it’s exactly what they want it to be. So, this is the chance to be able to purchase an exotic telescopic sight that was, until recently, out of reach for most people.
Past Marauder reports
I’ve done a lot of reports on Benjamin Marauders over the years. I thought this would be a good place to list links to all of them, so you can go back and reference if you want. Here they are:
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 1
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 2
Secrets of loading the Benjamin Marauder magazine
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 3
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 4
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 5
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 6
Fixing a Marauder magazine
Benjamin Marauder .177 caliber: Part 7
Benjamin Marauder .25 caliber: Part 1
Benjamin Marauder .25 caliber: Part 2
Benjamin Marauder .25 caliber: Part 3
Benjamin Marauder .25 caliber: Part 4
Benjamin Marauder .22 repeater with synthetic stock: Part 1
Benjamin Marauder .22 repeater with synthetic stock: Part 2
Benjamin Marauder .22 repeater with synthetic stock: Part 3
Benjamin Marauder .22 repeater with synthetic stock: Part 4
Benjamin Marauder .22 repeater with synthetic stock: Part 5
Why this project?
Clearly, I’ve written a lot about Benjamin Marauders. So, why this project? Well, while I’ve written about the gun, I’ve never had the opportunity to modify one and make it my own. I’ve always been testing them as they came from the factory, with whatever adjustments the gun allows — which is a lot. This time, I’m going to take control of the rifle and really wring it out. I want to test that RAI modular stock because it seems so small and slim — although I have to admit the synthetic stock the Gen 2 Marauder comes with is pretty slim and svelte already.
Compared to the old wood-stocked Gen 1 Marauder, this one is a full pound lighter. And when you shoulder the rifle, you notice how slim the forearm feels, compared to the thick wood stock on the Gen 1 rifles.
I really wanted to test that Green Mountain barrel that I see so many people bragging about. I know that Crosman rifles the .177- and .22-caliber barrels in-house, and you can read my reports linked above to see the accuracy I’ve extracted from this airgun. Regardless of caliber, it always seems to hover around one inch for 10 shots at 50 yards. That’s pretty good, but it isn’t as good as what I hear people bragging about. So, this test will be seriously focused on accuracy.
Adjustments
I’ve already written volumes about the Marauder trigger, the fill-pressure adjustment and power adjustment. I expect this rifle to act the same as the others I’ve tested, which is to say it will be very flexible and tunable. Will I be able to get it to the level of perfection I’m seeking — the level others have written about on various chat forums? We shall see.
I’m going to run this test a little differently. I’ll combine Parts 1, 2 and 3 in this report and the next as I sort out the rifle, adjust the trigger, mount the scope, adjust the stock and set the power where I want it. Past reports described it pretty well, so I’ll borrow from them.
Trigger
The trigger was set very heavy with a lot of creep in the second stage as the rifle came from the box. I lightened the trigger-pull adjustment as far as it will go and then worked on the stage-1 and stage-2 adjustments. When I finished adjusting, I had the trigger breaking at 1 lb., 1 oz. with a crisp second stage that has no creep. I bumped the rifle several times, and the sear didn’t release.
The large round screw at the left adjusts the trigger-pull weight. Behind the trigger blade, the two small screws adjust the first- and second-stage pull length. And the screw behind those 2 allows for slight repositioning of the trigger blade.
Power
I’m going to leave the power adjustments where they are until I shoot some groups at 50 yards. No sense changing something before I know how well it performs. Unlike the trigger, which is a matter of personal preference, I can’t tell anything about accuracy without shooting the rifle at targets.
The basics
I’ll close this report with the basic description of the Marauder I’m testing. It’s a .25-caliber 8-shot precharged pneumatic repeater. It comes with one magazine and may or may not come with a degasser tool included. The rifle accepts up to a 3,000 psi fill of air, but that level is adjustable by the owner. You can also operate the Marauder on CO2, if you prefer.
The rifle weighs 7.3 lbs., but it comes without sights. A scope and mounts will add another pound or more to that, and I’ll install a UTG bipod, which adds another pound. My rifle will tip the scales around 10 lbs. once everything is installed.
My Marauder has a black synthetic stock that I’ll use for the initial tests. At some point, I’ll install the new RAI modular stock with folding butt. I don’t know what that will do to the weight, but I’ll keep you informed.
The barrel is inside a baffled shroud, so the report is much quieter than it would be if the muzzle was exposed. While this isn’t a super-quiet airgun (I’ve already fired it many times), it’s very quiet for what it is — referring to the caliber and the power level.
There are links to 18 past reports if you want to know more about Marauders in general. For how this one performs, you will have to wait and see, just like me.
B.B.
Once upon a time, it may have been after than Shot Show, you mentioned that they have scope with a built-in level.
Are any of their other releases related to this?
Thanks,
-Yogi
Yogi,
The scope with the level inside is coming later this year. Believe me, Leapers knows how interested I am in that scope and I will see an early one — no0 doubt!
B.B.
If you want one now, I have been using my Hammers internal level, 4-16x50DC Long Range Scope for the last year and a half and like it. Had two and sold the first with my Air Force 25 20inch LW barreled SS to an Airman ( Air Force ) in Texas. Only thing I would like is a little lighter, but on the Condor it evens out.
BB
Glad your going to hotrod one the gen2 Marauder in .25 caliber.
I’m not going to say here what I know the .25 Marauder will do after it gets bumped up in power.
If your results turn out the same as what mine did I think you will be plenty happy with the results.
I will be looking forward to this report.
GF1,
Well, “hotrod” may not be the right term. I’m not looking for more power. The Marauder has enough of that as it is. I’m looking for a more personalized rifle and also one that is deadly accurate.
B.B.
BB
Thats exactly what it ment to hotrod the old cars. Personalize them and make them what you want.
And I like Dave’s pistol grip stock he’s selling. I had my old gen1 .25 caliber Marauder done up with a pistol grip assembly from a 1322 and Dave made me one of the first AR butt stock adapters and I had that one the gen1 Marauder.
Then I asked Lloyd if he could make me a double tube conversion for a Marauder. So he ended up making me one that had a aluminum tube that used the Discovery diameter tube. I believe mine was the first prototype kit for the Marauders and he now sells the kit and offers stocks now for the conversion.
Yep mine looked like one of those black tactical guns with Dave’s adapter and the AR adjustable butt stock and the double air tube. Oh also had one of those Big 30 mm tube Hawke Sidewinder scopes with the big side wheel and a front sun shade.
And I guess maybe that is the wrong term to use “hotrod” but look at some of the ratrods that people are making. Some use 4 or 6 cylinders. So its not real to make the car faster or stronger its to make it how you want it. It doesn’t have to be fast to be a cool ride.
Same with modding a gun.( I guess I should of used the word “modding” instead of “hotrod”). But its to customize it and make it what you want.
But a little extra performance and power is nice also. 🙂
GF1
Your heavy foot is showing again .
twotalon
TT
Right you are again.
🙂
I didn’t realize the price for tha new crop of scopes was gonna start@ almost$300, but at least Leapers finally broke the ice and got the ball rolling with quite a specimen!
Reb,
I admit $300 is a lot. But when you consider the next scope with the same features costs over $1,500, it isn’t that bad.
B.B.
How much do we charge?-Whatever the market will bear!
Sounds like you are going to turn a $550 rife into either a $1,500 Super-Duper plinker or a $5,000 Olympic class range buster. Are you going to replace the trigger? Sounds like an interesting project….
-Y
Yogi,
I won’t replace the trigger. The Marauder trigger is one of the best triggers on any PCP. It takes a bot to adjust it well, but I have done that and I( like the way I have it right now. The only thing I wish it had is a trigger stop.
B.B.
The truth will out… B.B.’s a robot
BB,
Since this one is yours, perhaps your buddy Otho can help you rig up a trigger stop. With the new stock you may be able to come in the back of the trigger guard with an adjustable set screw under the pistol grip.
I do not know the internals of the trigger assembly, but there may actually be a place to install one there.
BB,
Here is a possible solution to the trigger stop and if you do not like it, it can be easily removed.
Bugga, I forgot to stick in the link.
http://www.marauderairrifle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=310
This is almost the identical mod I have on my Edge trigger and it is sooo sweet!
RR,
I read that mod you sent, but I don’t know if that looks right. I have the trigger breaking at a pound right now, so all I need is to stop the trigger blade after the release.
I will work on it.
B.B.
BB,
That stop mod requires no permanent modification, just the removal of the adjustment screw and the spring and replacement with a longer screw. If it does not suit you then you could always replace the original parts and work on it from another way.
With my Edge I took out the adjustment screw and spring and replaced it with a longer screw and a lighter spring that fit around the screw. I have a nice light, crisp pull with a dead stop.
RR,
Yes, I misread that. The grinding part was on the replacement screw — not on trigger parts.
B.B.
Since you just finished testing the Hatsan 25 caliber, can you compare the noise between the two? I’m thinking that my next rifle purchase will be a .25 caliber. I’m learning heavily toward a pimped out condor with some tt improvements, but that is a lot of money, so I may lean more toward a Hatsan or another marauder.
I’m a little disappointed with my .22 marauder so far. It’s been shotgunning pellets all over, cphps were around 4 inches at 50 yards, the jsb pellets I tested (I forget which ones I tried, I don’t have them in front of me right now) were around 3 inches. When I first got the rifle, I had a few double feeds. I’ve heard that that can sometimes damage the baffles and cause issues. I didn’t see any noticeable marks on the baffles but did see some lead dust between the first and second. Not sure if that is normal. I want to test without the baffles, but I don’t think I should in my backyard, and haven’t had time to hit the range lately. I also haven’t had time to test more pellets in it. Hopefully this weekend will see that done.
One more thing that makes me think baffles its that last time I shot it I shot it down to somewhere under 1500 psi, just to see if it liked that, when the pressure started getting really low the shots were drifting to the right even more than they were dropping. Maybe 8 inches right of where they had been hitting at higher pressures, but hard to say with the group sizes.
Sorry for the stream of consciousness, BB, it’s ringing with shades of the blog of random thoughts. You don’t need to solve my problems , especially since I haven’t gotten to try the things I know to try, but I was kind of hoping one of the readers here with plentiful marauder experience could offer insight, or maybe suggest some pellets if none of the jsbs I have will shoot a decent group.
Tim,
I think when you test it without the baffles you will discover your rifle is accurate. That sounds like a case of the pellets touching one or more baffles on their way out.
You saw what happened when I removed the baffles from the Hatsan BT-65.
B.B.
I’m hoping so, and maybe I shouldn’t waste time and pellets looking for the right pellet until I’ve tried that. I really need to make time for the range.
I owned a marauder .22 and it shot domed pellets great, mainly premiers. But it was a tack driver literally with H&N 21.14gr 5.52 barracuda match at 75 yards an under. Maybe u have a problem with your adjustments (power) I know mine would creep over time an every so often I’d have to readjust mine a bit. Which may be your problem?
That’s funny, I got the email about your reply literally as I was coming in from shooting that exact pellet. Actually, mine says 5.51, so not exactly the same one. But shooting from just under 3000 psi, I shot 4 groups at 25 yards (the length I can shoot in the yard) and got one .8 inch group, one promising .55 inch group, then a one inch group, and a .8 inch group. Again, this was 25 yards, so not as great as I would like to be seeing.
I would like to start messing with the power adjustment(s) but since it isn’t like an Air Force with the power wheel, it’s a little hard to do, since there are no corresponding numbers to go back to when you find something you like.
I’ll try some more pellets, the sun is down now, but I’ll try another pellet this weekend if I can.
bb,
How about a look on the hw30s.
UtkarshGupta,
I already tested the Beeman R7, which is the same rifle except for the stock.
/blog/2010/10/the-beeman-r7-part-4/
B.B.
BB,
I see you did not get an opportunity to follow up on the R7 issues.
RR,
Yeah, I just abandoned it, I guess.
B.B.
Awhile back you said that Leepers was going to start making scopes in the U.S.A. Did I get that right and if so how is that going?
Bob,
Things are on track. A team of people has been formed and lens-grinding machines have been ordered. I expect to hear something about it later this year. Leapers is keeping me informed because I will write an article about their effort.
B.B.
Hi B.B.,
This one sounds like more fun for you, especially since you’re building it for yourself with components that you have hand picked.
And now, JSB has another, heavier .25 cal pellet to try in addition to the original Kings.
My gen 1 .25 likes the 31 grain H&N Baracudas. I haven’t tried the new heavy JSBs yet.
Feinwerk
My .25 Marauder loves the H&N 31grn Barracudas.
B.B.,
PLEASE clean that new .25 caliber green mountain barrel before you start shooting groups.
I’m excited for this series for many reasons. Interested in your take on the new leapers scope, the RL stock and the other additions/modifications you plan on experimenting with.
kevin
Kevin,
Too late. The test has started. Don’t worry, if the barrel needs cleaning, I will do it. This is my personal rifle, after all.
I don’t know what an RL stock is. Could you elaborate?
B.B.
B.B.,
Apologies. Typed RAI stock and my ipad thinks it’s smarter than I am.
Have a great weekend and try to stay dry.
kevin
Perfect opportunity to demonstrate how much difference it can make! If any. How much disassembly is required to remove the baffles Anyway?
Reb
The baffles are very easy to remove.
You just unscrew the muzzle end cap and the baffles slide out.
Are they attached to the endcap?
Reb
Nope. Unscrew the cap. Then each individual baffle slides out separately.
I can’t remember off the top of my head but I Think the gen1 has 4 baffles and the gen2 has 7 baffles. But don’t hold me to that its been a while since I opened one up.
Tim,
Regarding “best” pellets for the Marauder – I read every single one of BB’s earlier posts, and ordered up a box box of CPL’s for my new .177 gun. After about 200-300 rounds fired, my groups (which never got as good as 1″ @ 50yd) started opening up on me. So I cleaned the gun, and noticed a lot of small flakes of lead in the baffles, but no sign of contact. And…small flakes of lead on the breech seal, and on the bolt probe, and just about everywhere else I looked. Which explained the funny noises that the gun would occasionally make – if you hear something that sounds like your dog passing gas when you fire, look at that breech seal and see if it needs cleaning or a drop of lube). Started taking a closer look, and realized that the CPL pellets had a lot of mold flash on the inner flat surface that the bolt probe pushes on – it looked like this flash was breaking off, and getting pushed around to various places where it could cause trouble. I started taking a look at the breech seal after each shot, and cleaning away any debris…but this became a pain, as you have to remove the magazine to see that seal.
So I started looking for a better pellet. For me, the H+N pellets (FTT, Barracudas) worked well, they are very clean and flash-free, lubed with what feels like nice clean silicone oil instead of graphite, load smoothly and hold good groups (just finished my first tin of 500 and haven’t needed to clean the gun yet). These pellets have a fairly heavy skirt that works ok with the blunt bolt probe of the Marauder. JSB’s are a good clean pellet, and grouped ok too, but would produce more fliers (maybe 2 in 10 shots). Shot a lot of pellets into milk jugs full of water, and recovered a lot of JSB’s with bent skirts, while premiers and H+N’s looked much more uniform. I surmised that the thinner skirt of the JSB’s were getting bent occasionally as the bolt probe pushed them into the breech.
Then I took a look at various head sizes for the pellets, and closed my groups up from roughly 7/8″ at 30 yds. to 5/8″, by finding the best head size. Then ordered 2,000 pellets in that size from Pyramid (love that buy 4 get one free deal!) and started shooting.
So, now I’m shooting confidently at 50-70 yds. at starlings at the local dairy farm, and dropping them in their tracks. Haven’t shot a paper target in months, but am fairly certain that my groups are right around that 1″ at 50 yds. that BB noted, when I’m on my game and not rushing shots.
BB, I’m looking forward to this series (but then, enjoy reading all your blogs). I have a project in mind for this summer, to find the “best” lead-free pellet for disposing of birds that get into the calf feed at the dairy barn. I’m not at all comfortable filling their feed full of lead pellets, and am hoping there is a “green” pellet that will work well with the Marauder, and maybe a single gun tune that will give acceptable groups with both heavy lead and light non-lead pellets…wish me luck. We just moved into a new shop, and I have a clear 100-yard indoor lane, and permission from the boss to come in on the weekend and use it. Need to get some LED lights for the chrony, too…
Great article and will be looking forward to future reports. When I finally go PCP, the Maurader may well be it.
All I can say is that Crosman better (ramp up), P.A. better (stock up) and RAI better get into some (overtime) !
I think when your done, everyone and their brother will be doing a B.B. “knock off” clone. Part for part,.. and word for word.
Just my opinion,…..Chris
I considered starting with a P-rod bit didn’t Care for the more restrictive magazine they use so this may be a good way around that obstacle. Got a hammerspring to change out on the 2400 tomorrow folllowed by a buncha chrony testing. I just got the scope dialed in again and now it’s gotta come off to get to it.
Reb
BB
I’m looking forward to this series of articles. I like that the Maurauder is made here in the good old USA. My hats off to Leapers for moving their plant back to the USA. I’ve been battling with UMAREX over scope issues on the RWS 300 scope on my Diana Model 34. I’ve gone through 3 RWS scopes and 2 UMAREX 4×32 scopes since March. While neither the RWS 300 or 4×32 scopes are even mid-range scopes, I would at least expect them to hold up for 100 shots or more.
You’ve got some exciting articles coming up and can’t wait to see part 2 on the Maurauder even though I’m an AirForce guy.
I just read that Crosman has come out with a 1077W with a wood stock. How did I miss that?
I guess they did a private unveiling. Gunfun Mentioned it a couple months ago and it sounded like a good idea to me but I prefer.22 cal
BB,
That 1-8 Leapers scope looks great but with a fixed paralax setting it is not suitable for air guns, is it?
It really should have adjustable parallax. I probably would not buy it since it doesn’t. However, with the parallax fixed at 35 yards, it will work fine on air guns. I have a UTG fixed 4X with 35 yard fixed parallax that works fine on my Diana 34 in .22 cal.
Mike
Thanks Mike
I think I’ll get on of those somedqy.
Ton, Mike, If you saw how much the reticle moves in most scopes when you adjust the parallax, especially in AO configurations (as opposed to side adjust), you might appreciate a fixed 35 yard setting for airgun scopes more! Using my “optics lab in a pocket” Leupold Zero-Point, I tested over two dozen scopes at SHOT 2015, in addition to my own scopes and many of my friends’ scopes. The vast majority of them exhibit 2-3 “clicks” worth of error (or far more) across their parallax adjustment range. Of course you can always tape-down the adjuster where you need it and not change it without checking your zero first. That’s what I now do with most of my AO scopes. The crosshairs simply move too much when using an adjustable objective (and even most side adjuster too)!
BB,
How can I tell if my Benjamin Marauder is a 1st or 2nd generation by looking at it?
Joe,
What does the wood stock look like? Does it have an adjustable cheekpiece? If not, it’s a first generation gun.
If the stock is synthetic, it is second generation.
B.B.
BB,
Thanks, but did other parts (internal and external) changed?
Joe,
You asked if you could tell whether a gun was a gen 1 or a gen 2. I didn’t think you were going to disassemble it.
I covered the changes to the trigger when I reported on the .22 Marauder with synthetic stock, which I linked to at the top of the article. I also mentioned that the gen 2 guns have a de-pinger installed on the striker.
Those are about the only differences.
B.B.
BB,
What is a de-pinger?
Joe,
When a PCP fires, some of them have a resonance people call a ping. A de-pinger eliminates this annoying sound, and some say improved the shot cycle.
B.B.
BB,
You should write an article about a de-pinger. This is news to me and perhaps many others.
Joe,
That’s a good idea. I haven’t followed de-pingers as much as other people, but I have made them for guns in the past.
I will think about it.
B.B.
Can anyone suggest a good, not too expensive (Up to $200.00) airgun scope that will stand up against the recoil of an RWS model 48 sidelever .22 caliber air rifle. I have a UTC Bug-Buster 3-9X40 AO that was advertised to be compatible with this rifle. Had it on a HY-Score model 807 break barrel, and it was fine; able to put pellets into the same hole at 30-40 feet. I took it off the Hy-Score and put it on the RWS, and it took about 5 shots to completely scramble it. I bore sighted it after it stopped holding zero (a Few times). Every time I bore sighted it, the first shot after bore sighting went where the crosshairs were, but the next shot sometimes wasn’t even on the paper. Something is moving from recoil. The scope is going back to UTG, I’ll replace it, but I want one that will stand up to the Model 48. Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
Frank,
It really sounds to me like you have the elevation on your Bug Buster cranked up high to zero your Diana 48. If that is the case, you don’t have a scope problem, you have a barrel droop problem that is endemic in Diana airguns.
Is the elevation up high?
B.B.
B.B.
Good point I have my scope mounted in Sports match 30 mm adjustable rings to deal with the droop. /product/sportsmatch-30mm-rings-high-adjustable-9-5-11mm-dovetail?a=3508
David
David,
99 percent of the time when a Diana airgun has a scope problem, droop is the cause and the mount is the cure.
That said, the Bug Buster’s eye relief is short, and, coupled with the short scope tube and where the scope rings have to attach to the 48, I don’t think it’s a good choice for that rifle. You end up seeing only part of the image through the scope because the eyepiece is so far from your eye.
B.B.
Frank,
I have a Leapers 3-12×44 30 mm SWAT scope on my RWS model 460 Magnum. So far over 1000 rounds and no problems with it holding zero. Here is the link /product/utg-3-12×44-ao-swat-accushot-rifle-scope-ez-tap-illuminated-mil-dot?a=3493
David
I have the same scope on my Diana 52 in .22 cal. No problems so far. I’m using a drooper base. However, the Raccoons that like to get into the bird feeder at night don’t care for it at all 🙂
Mike
Mike,
I tried the drooper base on my 460 Magnum. The scope sat too high for my liking so I switched to the Sportsmatch adjustable rings.
David
Frank
I agree you need to check your scope for being to high on the elevation by using a mirror and optically centering the scope or in your case to check to see where your elevation reticle is actually at in the scope and if it is to high it will float around in the scope causing the flyers issue.
Get you a mirror like a vanity mirror that women use or an old motorcycle mirror as that is what I use, it just needs to be small enough that you can hold it tight against the objective end of the scope with the scope at is lowest power setting and if it is an AO scope the AO set to infinity. Then it works best in bright sunlight but will work inside with a Bright overhead light but with the mirror held tight against the objective end of the scope look into the ocular end and you will see two sets of reticles, one that is centered in the scopes body and another lighter reticle almost like a ghost image of the one centered in the body the ghost image is where the scope reticle adjustment is at and if the elevation line is at the top of the scope you are out of upward adjustment and the reticle horizontal line is floating in the scope because the spring has no tension left on it to keep it from floating around when you shoot and is due to the common Diana barrel droop issues. If it is not all the way at the top the scope may be damaged as my 48 broke a Hawke 3x12x44mm varmint scope that is magnum spring gun rated so it is not impossible for even a air gun rated scope to be broke by a high powered springer and I sent mine back to Hawke for a free replacement scope.
I would recommend the RWS drooper mount or the sportsmacth mount as the RWS has .025″ of correction built in it and can be bought from PAs website. The sportsmatch has .0295″ of correction built in so the best way to determine which mount you need is to optically center your scope just as I stated above to check where your elevation reticle is now only with the mirror held up to the scope adjust the ghost image with the scope adjustment knobs to be exactly hidden by the actual reticle you see that is the true center of the scope so that when you are done you will only see one set of reticle lines in the scope.
Then take a 2 by 2 foot piece of cardboard and place it 30 yards from where you will shoot and draw a vertical and horizontal cross hair on the cardboard and with the scope optically centered aim for the center of the cross hairs on the cardboard and fire three shots to see just how low the pellets hit below the cross hair on the cardboard. If it is 5 to 6 inches below you can use the RWS mount, if it is 7 to 8 inches low you will need the sportsmatch mount that can be bought from AoA in Arizona. If it is over 10 inches to 17 inches then UTG makes a mount that will compensate for either 10 inches or 17 inches of droop, but it is an add on mount that you mount to the gun then mount your plain scope rings to as the UTG mount has the droop built in it and fits between the gun and your scope rings and PA also sells them as well so one of those 4 mounts should get you on target with minimal elevation adjustment.
My 1988 model 48 needed the sportsmatch mount to get it hitting just about 1/2 inch high at thirty yards so that is how you can determine if your scope is indeed broke or is just out of upward elevation adjustment and floating the reticle. and how to determine what amount of correction you need to get it hitting where you want with every shot.
BD
Buldawg,
Thanks for that drooper fix info. Very good,.. and from how it was written, come’s from actual experience. Good #’s. A real concise “gold mine” that will get someone on track pretty quickly.
And yea, topping out elevation = no good.
I have yet to do the mirror bit, but want to. I know where I am at from factory settings currently. Close to center. Some say do,..some say don’t,…and some say it does not matter.
From what I have learned,…mirror, shoot, adjust with mounts or shims, and zero in.
Still ” playin’ ” and finding my best grouper. When I do, I will mirror and go from there,…as long as it does not take too much (up) to get the “actual” and “ghost” lined up.
Chris
Chris, USA
I am very well of the dos and don’ts as well as the does not matters, but I myself believe it does matter and unless you do it you do not actually know where the crosshairs are in the scope in relation to dead center as most new scopes contrary to popular beliefs are not centered from the factory as I check every one of my scopes before mounting it and out of 20 scopes I have I have only found one that was actually optically centered from the factory and it was a Centerpoint 4x16x44mm side focus that was on clearance from wally world for 80 bucks and is a 145 buck scope from Crosman.
You saying you know where you are at from the factory setting is worthless as I just said that most scopes are not centered from the factory, so you know how many turns or clicks you are from when you got the scope and mounted it but that may be farther or closer to optically centered than you are thinking as you do not truly know if the scope was centered to start with when you got it.
Counting turns from one extreme to the other is not an accurate way of knowing if it is truly centered. if you are unsure of that try this exercise. count the turns or clicks from one extreme to the other then center it between those two extremes and then check it with a mirror to verify if it is in fact optically centered and nine times out of ten I bet you it is not centered with the mirror method.
The plus about the mirror trick is it takes less than two minutes to check and adjust any scope and is accurate every time.
So just shoot till you find the best pellet and groups and check the scope with the mirror and I will bet you are surprised by what you see.
BD
Cool piece of info. Thank you.
Sam
Always willing to help fellow air gunners
BD
Buldawg– Have you tried Burris Signature rings to correct for droop. Although I have 8 air and co2 guns with optical sights, none of them have droop ( or enough droop) to need correction. I have only used Burris rings on rimfire rifles. My drooper air rifles are nor drilled or grooved for scopes. If they were, I would not be waiting for BB (or someone like you) to try them and write a report. I like the inside offset plastic rings on these rings because they do not damage or scratch the scope tube , but they do make full contact with the tube. Ed
Z Ed
No I have not tried the Burris scope rings or even knew that they made scope ring that would correct for droop.
I am assuming that by you referring to plactic inserts for them that they use a insert that is cut to an angle to compensate for the droop that is needing correction and if so I would be interested in those type of mounts although I can tell you right now if they are very pricey then I would most likely not be willing to pay the price for them.
I would still like to look at them if you can give me a part number or link to the ones you are talking about as I am interested. I am not at this point in need of any drooper mounts as I have the one model 48 that does have a droop issue but it is corrected with the sportsmacth one piece mount with .0295′ correction
I an not a fan of adjustable ones as with anything if it is adjustable then it can move with out it being intended to move.
BD
This question was sent to the wrong address, so I am posting here.
Hi:
I am looking for a rear sight on an industry brand b3-1 .177 caliber under lever air rifle.
The sight mounts to the rear of the breach.
It was in the article by b.b. pelletier on feb 23, 2012.
Any ideas on how i can get one?
Scott
Scott,
I would contact reader Mikeiniowa, who sells Chinese airguns. He might know of a source for that rear sight.
Mike owns flying dragon air rifles.
B.B.
Good to know!
I have a question about how to keep track of my pressure in this HIpac. Can I leave it connected to my pump some way?
Reb,
There is no good way to leave your gun tethered to a source of air.
B.B.
Bummer, I knew there’d be some drawbacks to stepping in slowly and this was the first part that occurred to me. My last fill was 125 bar which is as close as I could read on my gauge to 1800 psi. My last was 100 bar. I’ve ran about 3-4 tanks @ 2000psi but mostly just shooting and enjoying it instead of actually testing.
Now I’m ready to start optimizing.
Scott
I believe this is the rear sight you are looking for and it is for a B3-1/2 rifle , but the gun must have a dovetail machined in the receiver top as this mount secures to the dovetail so it is a B3-2 rear sight.
I have a B3-1 but have not tried to remove the sight to know if it has screw holes for the rear sight to attach with as mine looks to be spot welded to the receiver tube but then as I said I have never tried to take it off so I am unsure if it is indeed screwed onto the receiver top.
https://www.archerairguns.com/Rear-Field-Sight-p/aarfsight.htm
If this one will not work will not work I may be willing to part with my B3-1 for a decent price so if the sight will not fit and you arte interested in a complete rifle that is brand new with a fresh rebuild in it just let me know and we can exchange contact info to talk about the details.
BD
I’ll look forward to anything called a “bomb.” And I’m particularly interested in a test on Green Mountain barrels whose name I’ve seen on various occasions. Are they based in Vermont? Perhaps they are invoking the heritage of the fabled “Green Mountain Boys” of Revolutionary War fame.
I had a big range day yesterday! First there was brief prelude with my bows and arrows. Having been out of practice for so long, I was just thinking of working through the shot mechanics, the sort of thing Asian archers do for years before even thinking about a target. I had struggled with my 60# longbow in my previous outing. But then something strange happened; I don’t know if I was benefiting from some workout routines or not. But suddenly I felt the power to get more of a draw and what a difference that made. It was like I was driving nails at 15 yards, like I was wielding the Hammer of Thor. And on one occasion, my eye just happened to be covering the center of the target of the size of a silver dollar, and I saw the arrow zip into it dead center, like Robin Hood. It was truly the Jaws of the Subconscious. And it make me think that perhaps this is the driving force behind accuracy and all the carefully measured groups are incidental. The fact that the bow was shooting something like 60 MOA made no difference at all.
Then, it was time for the guns. Sights were the theme of the day. The iron sights on my Saiga were barely on paper at 50 yards, but thankfully, I had had the foresight to bring my special Leapers sight adjustment tool that I had bought. This technology is definitely less convenient than the windage adjustable sights on American rifles. Still, there was sort of a thrill in cranking in the adjustment, and I got the iron sights zeroed easily enough. Then I tried out my TruGlo red dot sight. Things started well with me getting on paper quickly. But then I made a fatal error. I assumed that the clicks were 1/4 MOA like conventional scopes. In retrospect, this makes no sense since the red dots are not intended for the same distance. I dialed several revolutions up, and that was the last I saw of shots from my red dot. I never did succeed in getting back on paper for the rest of the day. After using up most of my 20 rounds of sighters in a futile effort, I mounted the BugBuster. This I zeroed easily enough and put three shots into a little over an inch. With high hopes, I then moved to the 100 yard line for the culmination of my experiment in the accuracy potential of the AK.
But here is where things started to go wrong. I was shooting in groups of three to save my ammo for what I hoped would be a run of good shooting. Each group of three was reasonable at about 3 MOA, but they kept moving all over the paper. The final group actually dropped off the bottom of the paper. What the heck was going on?! My UTG side mount was rock solid. My BugBuster scope is of high quality. My best guess is that the eye relief was wrong because of the relatively short scope tube and healthy Western length of pull on the stock. I noticed that the view I saw through the scope did not fill up the rear lens and was not located centrally. I expect that I was suffering from parallax problems. Nothing like getting hit over the head with a concept to understand it. Mike, beware of the BugBuster. It may not be the right scope for this rifle. I’m going to substitute my Leapers 4X scope with a longer tube and see how that does. But the whole experience shook me up and made me wonder if my rifle was a case of From Russia with Lemon.
I had been switching off with the M1 and was having trouble there too. I had a couple of jams, and so-so groupings, the last of which was 4 inches at 8 o’clock out from the center. My theory of gas pressure seemed to in pieces and together with the baffling performance of the Saiga, I was at about my nadir….
And then, the miracle happened. The jams stopped. The M1 ran like a top, and I put the last two clips into a little over an inch. Overall my jam rate was cut in half. My theory is good! I might even reload the same charge next time as I notice that jams occur early in firing. It’s almost as if the gun settles for each different load.
Then it was off to the 25 yard range for a final reckoning with the red dot sight for the Saiga and the shooting of pistols. Now the red dot gave me the strangest experience with guns that I’ve ever had. The first shots against the berm showed that I was way high. So I dialed down to where the dust cloud of impact looked to be right on top of my point of aim. Then I fired at the paper and nothing! I tried repeatedly going from berm to paper and watched my ammo dwindle to nothing but not once did I make a hole anywhere. Between this and the BugBuster I was fairly freaked. Finally, I vowed to get back to basics and used the last five rounds for iron sights. I put four rounds rested into 1.5 inches at 25 yards for 6 MOA and a couple shots standing within a couple inches of the rested group. Mike, for you to do what you did at 100 yards with iron sights is quite astonishing.
In conclusion, I will say that the Russian part of the gun worked with respect to the reliability and the iron sights. The American part in the form of scopes and accessories did not work. On a brighter note, this has to be one of the funnest guns to shoot. I had heard people say this in online reviews and was not sure what they were talking about. But they are right. Who would have thought that the fearsome AK produced by the Soviet Union is such a bundle of joy. I think it’s a combination of the feeling of power with lack of recoil. Perhaps this is the manifestation of a large bullet with a short case. Whatever it is, it feels great. And the reliability goes beyond merely functioning with each shot. Just like the Mosin, you somehow know that there isn’t the slightest possibility that the gun will fail to chamber. Another bright spot is that the shortcomings with the scope give an excuse to go out again in a couple weeks. The national debate on gun control is focused on the right to keep and bear arms, but I think what’s missing from the conversation is the text on the “pursuit of happiness” because man is this a lot of fun.
Then, I finished up with 150 rounds with my pistols at 25 yards. With all the shooting I had done up to that point, the Jaws of the Subconscious returned and they stuck around. With my 1911, I put most shots into a four inch cluster. There were a few flyers trying to escape the gravitational pull of my cluster but not very successfully. For Lt. Col. Bonsall to shoot a .45 into 2.5 inches at 25 yards on a routine basis is almost unimaginable to me. Especially with ball ammo. My group came with 185 gr. ammo which I think brings the 1911 to perfection, and those hollowpoints look so ugly that I can’t imagine what they do on impact.
My .45 shooting did raise another question. I had been supposing all along that I was heeling the gun low. But how do you know whether you are heeling the gun or whether your sights are too low? My guess is that your groups should tell you. Heeling the gun signifies a lack of control, so your groups should be low and large. But if the groups are fairly compact and consistent, perhaps the problem is with the sights. I don’t want to encourage a bad habit, so I’m cautiously creeping the sights up.
Matt61
I just returned from the range a couple hours ago myself. I had a 3X to 9X scope mounted on the Arsenal AK with a UTG mount on the side rail. The scope was big for the rifle but I just wanted to see how well the rifle could shoot.
Well, I found a problem too. The rings I used would not tighten down completely to the mount. There was still a very small amount of movement of the scope on the mount. But, it was very small so I shot anyway. The Tula went into 3 inch group. Wolf HP’s were about 4 inches. The rifle didn’t like PMC, it shot those to 6 inches and left.
The best was my hand load with Speer SP 125 gr .311 bullets and AA1680 powder. Those shot a really tight 1 3/4 group. Even some of the really old hand loads with 130 gr. .308 bullets made it into 3 inches. So, it shows promise. When I got home I took the scope off and removed the problem rings. I will get different ones later. Since the scope movement was only forward and back a bit, it didn’t seem to have a big effect.
Perhaps your M-1 is just starting to finally brake in. Being a custom match rifle it is probably very stiff.
Doesn’t you Bug Buster scope have a parallax adjustment? I see the current one does.
You can bore sight your AK with a scope or red dot. You can just see through the bore from the back if you field strip the rifle. That will get you on target fast. If you are having problems with a zero, get close. Even about 10 or 15 yards. Fire one shot, place the rifle back at the aiming point, then without moving the rifle, turn the adjustment dials until the cross hair or dot is on the bullet hole. You now have a rough zero to start from.
We shoot iron sights a lot here. Our Cowboy Action club has a metal rabbit target, life sized, that we shoot at off hand at 100 yards with our match lever action rifles. There are a number of people in the club that can hit it often. It’s great fun when you get it! It has even been hit with a pistol more that once.
I shot the Diana 52 .177 off the back deck at home to finish the day. It was a good one.
Mike
I could be nitpicky, but maybe check your side rail rivets? Are you using a cheek riser?
The whole receiver on an AK is a little flexible- note the PSL is based on an RPK receiver. For the DMR’s tricked out by Krebs he machined a massive aluminum scope mount and fastened it solidly to the receiver- skipping the side mount altogether. Most issues of flexing would be less relevant if shooting 5.45- the actual bolt thrust and fpe is pretty low.
Just ideas. You probably already thought similarly. It helps me to close right up to 25 yards and shoot 4 corners. On AK irons the notch behind 100 (furthest notch back) is your 25-200 battle zero.
BD– Burris advertises The Signature rings as both rimfire and air rifle rings. The plastic inner split rings have offsets built into them . After the top half of the ring is screwed down, no movement is possible. I had an adjustable (rws) scope mount on my Diana 52, some 18 years ago. It did not hold its adjustments. Look up the Burris web site, or just google Burris signature rings. You will get information and pictures to explain how they work. The ability to correct for both windage and elevation (with an optically centered scope) makes them worth the price (to me). Ed
planning to enter FT comp. is it hard to bring an Mrod down to 20ft lbs to use in FT. Do you decrease the hammer pressure somehow
Rev Roy,
A .177 Marauder should be easy to drop below 20 foot pounds. Read the owner’s manual for tips on power adjustment. If you don’t have your manual, read it online on the Pyramyd AIR website.
B.B.
Sorry I was asking about a .22 cal M Rod. If that is a hard thing to do how about an Airforce Talon in .22 or a Condor in .177. This is the first year me and my wife want to enter the comp in NC. Never been and don’t know what to expect. Thanks B.B I enjoy reading your reports. (Blog I Think they call them today.
Rev Roy,
You definitely want to shoot field target with a .177 only. Any larger caliber is a hindrance. Put the Condor barrel on the Talon SS and you will be as close as you can get.
B.B.
Rev Roy,
Adjusting the Marauder’s velocity downwards is real easy. The only adjustment you need to touch for this is the transfer port screw. When you choke down the transfer port, you also get the pleasant side effects of a bigger shot count, and a flatter velocity curve. Small adjustments go a long way with the TP screw. Once I’m in the ballpark, I find myself trying to eyeball eighth and sixteenth turns to get the velocity right where I want it.
I agree with B.B. that .177 is ideal for Field Target. But if you already have a .22 Marauder or need the .22 for some other application, by all means shoot FT with the .22! It’ll be trickier with the .22, but if you miss a few, you’ll still be rewarded with a louder .22-size “clang!” on the faceplate!
Now, if you were going to switch back and forth between max velocity and 19.5 foot pounds for hunting v. FT with the .22, I reckon that would become tiresome, popping the Marauder action out of the stock every time to tweak the transfer port adjuster. I do find the TP adjuster pretty repeatable, though. You may find that you don’t need to chronograph the thing every time. A well-placed drill hole in the stock could be a convenience in this scenario, so you could get at the TP adjuster with the action still in the stock.
One more unsolicited piece of FT advice: If you haven’t already purchased the rifle/scope/etc. you intend to shoot FT with, don’t spend any $$$ just yet! Just show up empty handed at a few matches and sample the gear that some of the veterans are using. FT folks are very big on sharing, and you can shoot a huge variety of rifles and optics before you invest!
-Jan
Thanks for your speedy answer. I tried the .177 barrel on the talon and could not adjust the power level with any great success. I think because it is a long barrel it changes the ability to adjust the power. This is not just guess work I fired it over a chrony and maybe had 200 ftps difference from 2 to 12 on the scale. Now that was with the Talon bottle. Will the condor bottle which is for .177 with high flow. Make a difference on the talon Thanks again. I do appreciate the help.
Thanks Jan for the advice. I have Disco .22 and .177, Mrod .22, Xisco XS 60 .22, Airforce Talon .22, Airforce Condor with 24 in barrel in .177. My pick would be the Condor However I have learned from many conversations I should go with .177. Then there is the springers I have Rugers, crosmen, Gamo, Beeman, Xisco. in a mixture of .177 and .22. Any of the pcp’s have about the same accuracy so I recon I will just have to work out some system to decide. Do you have to use the same weapon in all lanes or can you use .22 in one and .177 in others? The folks that are discussing matters on this blog are great and helpful and I do appreciate your input.