by B.B. Pelletier
This is an oldie from 2009 that I recycled because I was out of town, attending to my sister last week. Today we look at Part 2.
Despite the size of this photo, the C1 is a small rifle. The western look was unique in its day. The scope is a 2-7X32 BSA.
If you remember, the C1 is one of the first adult air rifles I ever owned. I got my .177 C1 from Beeman and had the opportunity to break it in and shoot it until it smoothed out to become a great little shooter.
Today I’m testing the .22 version I acquired in a big trade with my buddy Mac, following the Little Rock show this year. I didn’t own a chronograph when I had the first rifle, so this test will be as revealing to me as it is to you. Kind of like finding out whether the girl next door was really as chaste as you envisioned when you were a kid, or whether she dated the fleet.
Observations
Before we get to velocities, I’d like to make a couple of observations. First, I had forgotten that the C1 has the mother of all single-stage triggers. If you look up single-stage in the dictionary, there will be a picture of a C1 beside it. It’s long and engages right at the start of the pull. No false first stages here!
The trigger on my test rifle is well broken-in and releases at 4 pounds, 4 ounces. I can’t call it crisp because you can feel the trigger moving as you pull, but it is very pleasant. While the later C1s have a manual safety on the right side of the gun, this one doesn’t even have that. Cock it and it’s ready to go.
Next, the C1 is a carbine. Though the gun isn’t difficult to cock, that short barrel will have your arm aching after a couple dozen shots. It’s certainly no Diana 27!
Also, the breech is butter-smooth. Though it has a chisel detent to hold the barrel shut, it feels and operates like a ball bearing detent, which is to say very nice.
Finally the firing behavior is dead-calm and quick. The gun moves in recoil, but there is no vibration to speak of.
The .177 C1 was represented to have 830 f.p.s. velocity, which probably meant 750 f.p.s. for sure, so the .22 should be in the low 600s. Let’s see where this one is.
RWS Superdomes
The 14.5-grain RWS Superdome averaged 503 f.p.s. It ranged from a low of 487 to a high of 510, for a spread of 23 f.p.s. They seemed to fit the rifle well, but the energy they delivered works out to just 8.15 foot-pounds.
Crosman Premiers
Surprisingly, Crosman Premiers that weigh only 14.3 grains averaged just 494 f.p.s. That’s less than the heavier Superdomes. The range was from 482 to 503 f.p.s. Muzzle energy for the average velocity is 7.75 foot-pounds. They also fit the breech variably, with some going in a quarter-inch and others sitting flush with the breech. The deep-seated ones were invariably the fastest.
Some Premiers fell deep into the barrel…
…while others had to be pressed flush with the breech.
RWS Hobbys
At less than 12 grains, RWS Hobby Pellets are the lightest I tested. Being pure lead, they also went the fastest. The average was 527 f.p.s. and the range was from 522 to 536, for a tight 14 foot-second difference. The average velocity produced an energy of 7.34 foot-pounds. All pellets fit the breech uniformly.
Eley Wasps
Just for fun I tried some fat Eley Wasps. At 5.56mm I didn’t expect much velocity from them and I was right. They averaged 437 f.p.s. with a spread from 425 to 450 f.p.s. The average velocity produced 6.15 foot-pounds from this 14.5-grain pellet.
Conclusions
Based on these numbers I’d say this rifle is a little tired. It probably needs seals and a new mainspring. I looked through the cocking slot and saw that the grease seemed to be from the factory, so this gun has just been shot a lot. No complaint there, because that’s what it’s built for!
Good Morning B.B.
“so this gun has just been shot a lot. ” Would a 100,000 pellets be a lot?
What is the useful life of a quality air gun? I remember when 100,000 miles was a lot for a car….
-Y
Yogi,
Yes, one hundred thousand shots is a lot. In the world of firearms, no gun including rimfires ever shoot that much without a major rebuild, including a barrel replacement. Airguns do it all the time.
There are club target rifles that have fired a documented million shots and more. And some Daisy Quick Kill BB guns were documented by the Army as firing over 20 millions shots.
B.B.
I’m going with the old blog estimate of centuries. 🙂
Matt61
BB et all..
Another blog entry way off topic –
While waiting for my left hand to heal from the two surgeries (yes, I’m going to milk this for all its worth) I came across a review for the Cybergun Sig Sauer GSR 1911 BB Pistol that mentioned several features I liked in a BB Action pistol.
First being the MV is way more than the specs say. About 460fps on mine compared to a spec of 400fps. This kind of MV makes my steel targets ring like a bell!
Second it used the standard Crosman/Beretta/M&P/etc/etc steel mag that holds about 20 steel BB’s. This is convenient because I have several pistols that use the same mag now.
Third being the rear sight was of a size that made it a pleasure to use.
Fourth was the co2 used a ¼” Allen Key and threaded plug, not the twist tab most retailers show! I have big hands and fiddly tabs don’t get along well with me.
The front sight was way too thin for the rear sight opening. Fixing that was my first mod. I wrapped the gun in a soft rag, chucked it up in a vise and filed .130″ off the top of the sight. Next I took a piece of matching nylon co-polymer .130″ square weed whacker line in bright orange, cut and trimmed and crazy glued it to the front sight stub. Left overnight the Gorilla glue melded the two pieces together as one. The orange trimmer line makes for a fine fiberoptic front glow sight and fits the rear sight opening perfectly.
Mechanically the pistol works the same as the M&P BB pistol or the Legends Luger BB pistol where the barrel is cocked forward by the trigger and released backwards impacting the valve and firing the pistol. Because of this the trigger is heavy – at least 8 to10 pounds and probably responsible for the large 3” groups at 7 yards that I initially shot. A bit of practice should get the group size down.
This gun is not a target pistol by any stretch of the imagination but should be a good plinker out to 10 or 15 yards. I bought it to use on my pistol range down on the creek area of my property. Most of the targets there are steel 6″x7″ oval or or 6″x7″ rectangle that look 6″ round or square when angled down to reflect BB’s into the ground.
The gun also came with a red laser that was more of a toy than anything.
Apart from the front sight the only other mod was to the trigger. Out the box ( clamshell) it tended to pinch my finger but a small file, 10 minutes and some liquid gun blue was all it took to rectify that problem.
This gun now feels good in the hand. It does get the advertised 200 shots per co2 with lots of warmup time between shots. With my style of shooting I only get about 130 shots or 7 mags usable. I’m looking forward to shooting it a lot this summer.
Cheers
Dave
Dave,
Another twofer blog! 😉
Thanks!
B.B.
BB
Could do a threefer blog today. But I’ll wait.
The HW30s came today. I think I’ll shoot it some more tomorrow before I say anything.
Only shot it for a short time tonight. But it’s looking good so far. 🙂
GF1,
I received my parts for the Crosman 1322 rifle project along with two Maximus barrels a couple of weeks ago. I was out of town so I didn’t get to it till yesterday. The one barrel I was counting on using that does not have the flat notch on the muzzle (It does have a knurled muzzle though) was sticking out of the packing 3 inches and had made a good tear in the cardboard box it was sticking out of. I am sure you can feel my disappointment. I put the barrel in my drill press and gave it a good spin sure enough the muzzle end was bent. It was not terrible so I set up a block of steel for a dial indicator and bent the barrel until it was spinning true. That took a while. I did not feel like waiting for a replacement barrel. I have the other original Maximus barrel I will try later and compare the two.
I put it together with a steel breach and a Hawk 4-12 scope. The first few shots worked the rolled pump pivot pin out of one side of the pump tube. I should have know better. Today it has a metal end plug and barrel band along with a solid pin I made from drill steel.
I shot the original (out of the box) Crosman 1322 over the Chrony with Crosman 14.3 gr dome pellets. With 10 pumps I got a 5 shot average of 465 fps with a spread of 12 fps. Specs say 460 fps.
After the new barrel was installed I got a 5 shot average of 562 fps with a spread of 12 fps. So about a 100 fps increase with the 26.25 inch barrel. I thought it may have been about maxed out with the original 10.25 inch barrel. I was wanting to get up around 600 fps with more upgrades so I will just leave it as is for now.
I sighted it in at 10yds and then moved to 24 yards for some testing. I took three targets to get it where I wanted. Then I shot a 10 shot group at 0.49 inches cc. I will always wonder if it would have been better before I had to straiten the barrel. I am happy with the results though and that is with the first pellet I tried the Crosman Primers 14.3 grains. It was also a little windy but I waited for a calm to shoot. I would have shot more but the pivot pin problem set me back yesterday and today I had to weed the garden.
My original plan was to float the barrel all the way from the breech but it is a long barrel. I think the metal barrel band and solid pin may also help a little.
So far I am very happy with the results. I have lots of plans for the other barrel will follow up latter.
Don
Don
I use the 760 front barrel band and pivot end cap. They use to be steel on the of the earlier model 760’s that had rifled barrels.
A .490″ group is good at 24 yards.
And that’s with the Maximus barrel. Do you think it’s better than the shorter Discovery barrels I believe you said you used in the past.
Don
Oh and I forgot. I have had better luck in .177 caliber than .22 caliber with the Discovery barrels on my .1377 steel breech guns.
Haven’t got to try the Maximus barrels yet.
GF1,
I have not used the Discovery barrel but I figured it was the same as the 2260 on the inside. The 2260 is not a bad barrel. The Maximus barrel, so far, is much better than my original Marauder barrel. That was one reason I wanted to try the .22 cal is to compare it to the Marauder. I think the barrel has some good potential, only a lot more shots will tell.
Don
I haven’t tryed a 2260 so I don’t know personally how the barrel compares to a Discovery barrel. But from what I understand from hearing people talk about them. They are pretty much the same.
And that new barrel process sure seems to work. I need to get a .177 Maximus barrel to try on something to see how they work. I know my .22 Maximus is a shooter.
Here’s a HW30s update if anyone is interested.
First of very enjoyable gun to shoot. A very smooth shot cycle. Easy to break open and cock. And closes easy too and locks tight. Reminds me alot of the HW50s I had. But much smoother to shoot. Oh and I feel no gaulding from the cocking arm and groove. Buttery smooth. And I can’t tell if it has the plastic insert in the groove. I got to take the stock of to see. So I will do that probably later on just so I can see if it does or if it doesn’t if it looks like any contact wear areas. But so far so good as they say.
And now is where I tell about my surprises. First yesterday had some wind blowing from different directions. It was constantly changing. So I didn’t want to base my accuracy off of yesterday’s shooting. And on about today. First off was pouring rain this morning when I got up around 6:00 am. It stopped pouring around 7:00 put has been a slight mist falling. I can’t even call it as hard as drizzling. But absolutely dead calm wind. So that’s what I was hoping for today.
Well heres the surprises. Yes for some reason with the globe front and notch rear open so on the gun I can see them and the target. And with both eyes open. Right now at 25 yards I’m using the 6:00 hold on my target. I’m using a 1-1/2 inch circle drawn on white paper. The circle is filled in red so I can see it stand out on the paper.
And now for the other surprise. And it’s about the pellets I tryed. But first about how I shot. This is all bench resting results. I rested the gun directly on the bag and forward of the trigger guard about 2-1/2 inches. And setting my pointing finger of my off hand on the stock to the side of the barrel right at about the bag the guns resting on with just slight down pressure. But not much at all. Almost just the pressure of my finger resting for some support to keep the gun from canting side to side. And I place my thumb of my trigger hand on the flat of the stock right behind the end cap of the tube of the action. I use just a little down pressure like described about my pointing finger on my off hand. Just enough to stabilize the fun from moving. Very light pressure as well.
Well here’s the pellets I shot. JSB 8.4’s and 10.34’s. Air Arms 10.34’s. Crosman premier 8.4 in the tin and also in the box. And Crosman premier hollow points in the tin. And last but not least and I’ll tell you why in a minute. The Daisy 7.9 wadcutters.
I’ll start with the JSB’s and the Air Arms. All 3 of those landed on the target pretty much center of the target with the 6:00 hold. Oh and I just did 5 shot groups so it wouldn’t take me all day trying out all these pellets. But they all grouped around 1-3/4 inches. Which should be good for my steel spinners at 25 yards.
Next I did all the Crosman premier pellets. First off the hollow point out of the tin did best out of all 3 of the different premiers. It did a bit over 2 inches. The regular premiers out of the box and tin did a bit over 2-1/2 inches and with one flyer from each that made the group 3 inches. So for the type of shooting I want to do with the gun all 3 of the premier pellets ain’t going to cut it.
And here’s the other surprise. And remember when I said above about them last but not least. Well surprise, surprise. They were the best out of all the pellets I just mentions. I got 5 pellets in 1-1/8″. And no flyers. So I did shoot two 10 shot groups with them. The first group of 10 went right at 1″ so was very happy about that. The next 10 shot group on another target went just under 1-1/8″.
And remember that was me shooting open sights. Which I have to say I’m probably not the best at. For group shooting when I’m trying to get the best group possible I really need a scope to do my best. So all in all very happy with the HW30s. And happy I got some good surprises today.
And since the Daisy wadcutters did the best I’m going to try them out to 35 and see what happens. Heck I might try some shots with the other pellets for the heck of it. You never know. That’s it for now. Back to shoot’n. 🙂
Ok I think I can make this short and simple.
Tryed all the pellets I mentioned above out to 35 yards. The JSB and Air Arms stayed the same group size respectfully. Not even a 1/16″ bigger than 25 yard groups.
The Daisy wadcutters was next. They opened up to about a 1-1/2 inches. Which is still beating out the JSB’s and Air Arms pellets.
The Crosman pellets still were not good. They groups grew more. Kind of like the 3″ flyers I got earlier today at 25 yards.
One last test. JSB, Air Arms, and Daisy wadcutters out at 40 yards. JSB and Air Arms groups grew again. And again only by about a 1/16 of a inch. The Daisy wadcutters group size grew also. Now up to 1-3/4″. But still beating out the JSB and Air Arms pellets.
But did everybody notice the sizes of the group’s and how they grew. The domed pellets started out at a bit bigger group size but did not grow in group size as much as the wadcutters did as distance increased. The was cutters still grouped better than the domes. But you could tell they were running out of accuracy.
I still have to go with the Daisy wadcutters for how I plan on shooting the gun. They did the best at those distances. And just for the heck of it I threw out a 2 litre plastic soda bottle with the cap on out at 25 and 40 yards. You should hear how the wadcutters hit the bottles with a loud thump that echoed louder than the gun shooting. The domed pellets made just a little sound when they hit. Plus the wadcutters knocked the bottle flying. The dome pellets just bumped the bottles. And when I went to look at the bottles the wadcutters enters one side of the bottle but didn’t exit. There was only one dome pellet in the bottle and that was the bottle out at 40 yards.
Hope you all see what the two different pellets did today. And remember I’m probably not shooting my best with open sights. Oh and that was standing and unsupported shooting at the 2 litre bottles on the last test. So I have to end with that I’m very happy I got the HW30s and glad PA had that birthday sale that they added the HW30s too. Thanks is the best I can say.
GF1,
Nice testing. So, for close range “thumping”,… we should give the wad cutters a try?
I have not pulled the trigger in now going on 2 weeks. New scope for the Maximus arrived today along with a side wheel. Hope to get it mounted and do some shooting tomorrow,.. but weather is looking as if it may not cooperate.
Chris U
Yes definitely try you some wadcutters in all the .22 caliber air guns you have. All the way from your springers to your Maximus.
It will make you think your shooting your .25 Marauder at a tin can out at 70 yards. Those wadcutters really put a thump’n on what they hit. Distance and fps make a difference.
Your .22 Maximus would be a killer combination with wadcutters at 40 yards and in. I’ll tell ya sqerrials won’t stand a chance. Even if you don’t get that head shot.
And yes this morning started out stormy here but clearing up nice. 79 and sun now. Wind still dead calm too.
What scope did you end up getting for your Maximus?
GF1,
Lighter makes sense. As for the scope,…
/product/utg-3-12×44-ao-swat-accushot-rifle-scope-ez-tap-illuminated-mil-dot?a=3493
I got a set of 11mm rings too, Med. and look to be fine, but will be close. Rings are on the scope, but have yet to mount it. Of all the rings I have laying around,.. I had to buy a set! I will shim the rear, just because. This is the full length model and I must have the compact on the TX200. Both 3-12 mag.. It is about 1″ longer than the Center Point that is on the Maximus now and definitely feels heavier. The 30mm tube ought to be a plus.
Chris U
Interested in hearing what difference the bigger tube diameter makes that you can tell when you shoot.
Hope you get to shoot it tomorrow so I can hear what you have to say.
GF1,
Clarity for one. The mildots lines are finer too. That is a big plus. The Hawke on the LGU is no comparison to the UTG’s. I know you are stuck on the Hawke’s, but I hope you get to try a nice UTG sometime in the future. I really think that you would be surprised. B.B.’s reviews of the UTG’s have been nothing less than stellar.
Will keep you posted.
Chris U
Oh and forgot. Look at the RWS hobby wadcutters. See how the skirt is thin in the back and also the lines in the skirt.
I like those the best. That seems to help seal the pellet good and engage the rifling good back behind the head of the pellet. Plus the lines start creating drag and stabilize the pellet sooner.
Anyway thought I would mention that about wadcutters since it seems not to many people go with wadcutters.
Chris U
You know what. Your a funny guy. You know why. I have had probably 5 UTG scopes among many other brands. 🙂
I was thinking back. You just might of got one of my Hawke scopes that had a thick reticle. I think it was a older scope that I got I bet 6 years ago. All of my etched glass reticle 1/2 mildot Hawke scopes are hair line thin reticles.
Just so ya know. You know how I tryed all kinds of air guns to see how they are. Well I tryed a bunch of different brand scopes too. All the way up to $450 scopes.
Now the question is have you tryed any other Hawke scopes besides that one or any other brands besides those and Centerpoint?
And saying that do you think you know why I chose the Hawke scopes?
GF1,
I guess that I should not find that a surprise. You like to “try” stuff,.. for sure. As for the Hawke’s,.. I suppose because that they have true mil-dots, as you like to say? And no, I have not tried anything other than the 1 Hawke, 1 Center Point and now 3 UTG’s. I do not have the means to keep switching things up.
As a side note, a recent Outdoor Life magazine gave Cabela’s brand scopes and binoculars a thumbs up. I am pretty sure they use Miopta glass. I would love to look through a 3,000$ scope some day. The Cabela’s brand is less than that.
Chris U
Yep the true mildots plus the 1/2 mildots for sure. Plus clarity and cost compared to higher priced scopes. And the the Chairgun program is available from Hawke. And the Chairgun has the Hawke reticles in the program for more true results along with the true mildot reference to magnification.
And Cabela’s has high priced scopes to if you search them on their site.
Chris U,
Just throwing out my two cents. i think you will be very happy with the utg scope I have four of them and you get alot of features for the money. I thinkbthe Hawk scpes have better quality but less features for the money. I have had very poor luck with center point scopes. I just bought a set of center point medium rings and the top half of one ring did not match the bottom half, one screw was bound so bad it was cross theaded from the factory. That will be my last centerpoint product purchase.
the side wheel focus is the way to go for target shooting.
Let us know how it turn out.
I am saviing my Daisy 499 project for when i will be off grid for a while. I will set up both 5 and 10 yd targets indoors and test pre and post Red Ryder spring upgrade. I need to print Cobalts instructions out before iI take off.
Don
Don,
I agree on the UTG scopes. I have been very happy with them. I think that most any air gunner would be thrilled with them. The Center Point scope was what came on the Maximus. For as cheap as it must be, I was surprised. I have been happy with the UTG rings as well.
I am thrilled that you are going to give the 499 Cobalt Magnum Tune a try. All the credit goes to him. The tool he made for the new spring is pretty critical. A piece of 1×2 with a couple of pieces of cut coat hanger wire should work fine. The washer he added prior to the putting on the spring was a good idea as well. That gives the tool something to put pressure on. I did it without the tool or the washer. I did use bamboo BBQ skewers for spring compression. Cut to a minimal length and they work fine for taking it apart. The stiffer RR spring needs the home made tool. I learned about the tool after the fact.
He used the original 499 piston, where as I plugged the hole in the RR piston and trimmed the front of the seal lip. We both ended up with the same fps though.
Be sure to hit me or him up on any questions that you may have. I am more than happy to help. Follow his links back to The High Road (THR) and you can find him and all of his vast amount of info. over there. Those guys are taking the whole smaller lever gun scene to a whole other level. Parts swaps, custom machined parts,.. you name it.
Chris
Chris U
Here check these out. This is what Pyramyd AIR has for .22 caliber guns in wadcutter pellets.
I had the best luck with RWS wadcutters in .22 caliber.
/ammo/pellets/calibers_0_22/ps_1
Chris U
Sorry but forgot. Select a little lighter weight pellet in wadcutters than you normally use for your gun. The The ad cutters like to slow up fast.
So a little faster wadcutter is needed to make them work.
GF1,
Sounds like a fun gun. I may need to try another spring gun one of these days.
That is good shooting for open sights.
Don
Don
Shot it all day yesterday. Didn’t even pick up one of my other guns. No tired arms or anything. A real pleasure to shoot.
And I did a bunch of free hand standing shooting towards the end of the day after I did my pellet finding and sighting in. Had some 12 oz. beverage cans out in the yard at different distances along with the two 2 litre plastic bottles. I put both of them out at 40 yards. I even put a 1 gallon plastic milk jug out at 50 yards.
I was hitting all the targets with no problem. It’s like the gun is matched to my shooting technique. I guess that’s the right word. What I’m trying to say is it just matches the way I hold it. And nothing special about how I hold it. Not even the artillery hold. It’s very forgiving on hold sensitivity. Just pick up and shoot. No thinking involved.
But yes I say get one. Very good gun to have a very relaxing day of shooting with. And didn’t even have to start my Shoebox compressor up yesterday. Just set the gun down when I was done and pick it up and shoot when I was ready. It does make you forget how nice some spring guns are. Especially after shooting pcp’s for a while.
Everybody should own a HW30s at least once in their life. Oh and build quality is excellent. You know how them German guns are.
Thanks! Love this gun, and I am jealous.
Matt61
Matt61
All I can say is if you ever get a chance to get a HW30s. Get it. Don’t let it slip by.
And another thing it would be a excellent indoor gun with the proper backstop. The gun is extremely quiet.
I like it much better than the HW50s I had. It’s just so tame and smooth when it shoots.
BB
Hoping your sister is recovering well.
So a deep seated pellet will achieve a higher velocity in a break barrel, everything else being equal?
Decksniper
Decksniper,
That’s not universal. It depends on the gun.
B.B.
BB
So how did this gun make you come up with the artillery hold? Probably a silly question. But would like to know.
Ditto that; good question. =)
GF1,
I couldn’t get it to group like Beeman said so I tried holding it loose, against their recommendations. I was looking to see how bad it could get, but instead I found out how to shoot recolling spring piston airguns.
B.B.
How was Beeman getting good groups?
Rambler
Good question. Do you know how Beeman held the gun? Or what he shot out of it?
If you can find that info it would be good also.
Let us know what you find.
BB
And don’t you just love when the wrong way ends up being the right way. 😉
A far from silly question that is basic to my whole experience with airguns. I’ve relied on springers, and if I hadn’t gotten the results made possible by the artillery hold, I probably would have drifted away from the sport. The logic which led to the discovery of the artillery hold is also the same as what has solved my M1 problem. Somehow, I managed to post my report on Thursday’s blog instead of this one. You can see the details there. But the short answer is that the gas system was the source of the problem after all. Adjusting it appears to have fixed things. So, I’ve ended up with a working rifle after all. And given that the original goal was to learn about guns, I’ve done plenty of that too. 🙂
Matt61
Matt61,
Well, well,… a huge congratulations is order for you! 🙂 x10! I read your post and it seems that you are now smarter than the gunsmiths,.. at least in regard to your particular issue. Best of all, you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together yourself. Yup on the Loc-Tite. You do not want to have to constantly wonder about that adjustment moving. Best wishes on continued success. You earned it.
Matt61
I missed your reply for some reason here. That is good news about your M1.
And you know hands on experience is the best. Books and teachers are nice to have to give the knowledge. But getting your hands dirty is what it’s all about. Seen alot things from actually doing that a book couldn’t show me.
And not putting down books and teachers. But once you throw in hands on. Then that’s a very effective way to learn with all 3 combined.
B.B.,
I thought this was a nominal 12 foot-pound gun when new. Hence, I expected to see something around 10 foot-pounds. Less than eight seems low on power, but I guess the spring can’t be broken since the velocities are consistent. Have you seen power drops of this magnitude with other guns in the past just from age and being shot a lot? Thanks.
take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
Yes. I see this a lot with Diana guns. I never knew how powerful the C1 was, so I don’t know how far this one has fallen, but it is tired.
B.B.
Dave,
It is tired , no doubt. Wish I knew how a good w=one was supposed to do. Not the hype — a a real test.
B.B.
And yes, I have seen drops like this in other airguns. Dianas are known for it.
B.B.
OK; thank you; it will be interesting to see the accuracy, and interesting to see how it responds if you decide to rebuild it with a new spring. =)
What type of rings are those ? I like the rounded top look 🙂
Do you think they would hold OK on an R9?
OK everybody! May I have your attention please! There is a new airgun show this year!
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/visit-first-annual-midwest-airgun-show-june-3-2017/
Gunfun1, we expect you to attend and provide us with a report. 😉
RR
I am planning on going. I missed the last close one. I think I may even have the wife talked into it. 😉
PH,
Awesome! All of the airgun shows I have been to have been an enjoyable experience.
RR,
Thanks for the heads up. That is even closer than the Findlay show to where I am at. I put it right up with P.A. in the favorites and will keep it in mind.
Chris,
There is nothing like an airgun show. Not only can you find some great deals, there is so much history that you can see and touch.
RR
Would be nice. But if I can’t make it to the PA shoot. I’m sure I won’t make this show. Just got to much going on all the time. But then again you never know. 🙂
GF1,
Unfortunately I understand. I was supposed to be at the GTA Fun Shoot in Kentucky this weekend, but life has dictated otherwise. I hope you can squeeze one of these in anyway.
RR
Yep I know. It always seems like something comes up
Hi BB
The c1 is sure a pretty looking airgun but I can see how the short carbine barrel would become tiring to cock after an afternoons shooting.
This morning I received PA’s email regarding the new Beeman QB Chief PCP rifle. I find it amazing that a gun with those specifications and wood furniture can be produced at that price point. I hope this gun will make it onto your list of reviews to do.
After the Marauder, the Discovery, the Maximus and now the Chief each coming in at a lower price is the $100 PCP going to be a reality soon??
They only have $79 left to trim!!
Cheers
Dave
Dave
My exact thoughts too.
RR
That air resivoir tube looks a awful lot like what’s on the Discovery and Maximus.
GF1,
It is probably made in the same Chinese factory.
RR
I was just a few minutes ago talking with Michael on the Embark blog.
I mentioned how the air resivoir tube and fill cap and barrel band looks a whole lot like the Discovery and Maximus ones. And if you look at the bottom of the Chief stock it looks like the air pressure gauge is in the same place.
I wonder if Beeman contracted out some parts from Crosman.
GF1,
It is more likely that Crosman buys their parts from the same factory that is producing these parts for the Chief. Crosman buys most of their parts from Chinese companies and “builds” them here, that is if they do not have them assembled over there. Do you really think Crosman could make them here at such a price, much less reduce the price of the Marauder so that it will still be competitive?
As an aside, if I am not mistaken the QB78 is a Chinese copy of the CO2 rifle that Crosman turned into the Discovery.
GF1,
It does not sound like they used the same trigger assembly though. The Chief is claimed to have a two stage adjustable. I wonder if Crosman will follow suit? They have a lot of catching up to do.
RR
That’s kind of why I pointed out the air tube. If it’s drilled out the same as the Discovery or Maximus. And the sear location is the same for the striker.
Guess what. I’ll be finding out how to get one of the Chief trigger assembly’s. Just so I could try it on my Maximus.
And if it don’t maybe it won’t take much to get it to work on the Discovery and Maximus.
Have to see about that after they come out.
GF1,
The Chief is a TF 79 running on air. There is a place to buy all the parts for that gun, so the trigger you need will be there.
B.B.
BB
Thank you very much for that information.
GF1,
Talk to Stephen Archer.
https://www.archerairguns.com/default.asp
Hello B.B.
This is Geo Johnson posting again after several months back when you gave me suggestions regarding my RWS34P not shooting decent groups. I say decent, I am expecting 1″ or less at 25 yards. Following our last conversation, I subsequently purchased the JB non-embedding paste and some bronze brushes and then thoroughly cleaned the barrel as per your instructions. This was done this spring in March.
Here we are in May and now I am outside shooting paper at 25 yards again. I purchased a tin of JSB Exact 15.89g pellets as these showed the most promise last fall. I also have a tin of CPHPs which I have tried but they have too many flyers…maybe 2 out of 10 will be 3″ from the bull. So….I was hoping after all the cleaning that the JSBs would be my answer to the poor groups. Nope, I’m right back where I was last fall. I shot (10) ten shot groups at 25 yards, being very cognitive of my hold. My groups averaged 2″ plus. This is just not acceptable and I still don’t know the cause. One thing I would ask, the JSB pellets do not fit snug in the breech. My main purpose of the rifle is to shoot sparrows from my bluebird nesting boxes at 25 yards. So I am constantly cocking and de-cocking because those rascals won’t sit long enough for me to get a shot. I don’t want to leave the rifle cocked. This does get a little old. Oh, back to my question. The JSB pellets will fall out of the rifle when I de-cock, or re-cock the rifle, so they do not fit snuggly. Could this be an issue with accuracy? I don’t remember the sample pellets being this loose last fall. Thanks for your continued help. I am thinking more and more about replacing the RWS with a PCP….except for the COST!
Geo
My Diana 34 in .177 caliber is not particularly hold sensitive. Try putting yours on a single sandbag or single gun rest bag snugged against the trigger guard. Squeeze the trigger between your thumb and index finger. This should eliminate most shooter shaking variables. You can’t shoot sparrows this way but it will tell you if your gun is the problem. My rifle likes several brands of snug fitting match grade pellets.
Good luck!
Decksniper
Hi Decksniper….cool user name.
Yes, I have tried shooting off from my Cadwell shooting bag too. B.B. advised to never let the rifle rest directly on the bag, but rest the rifle on my open hand which I could rest on the bag. Made no perceivable difference in shot groups…still wide open to 2″ plus. The RWS34 P is a very high quality air rifle but I can’t hit with it…even after four years. It’s a hit and many misses experience.
Geo
Why not kill 2 birds with one stone? Get a Crosman Cistom 2400KT with a 14″ Lothar Walther barrel and their carbine stock attachment. Put a scope on it or go for their peep sights. This gun has serious sparrow accuracy. It uses CO2 so no worry about leaving the gun cocked if you sealed the connection with Pellgun oil. You will be no where near $300 investment.
I am retired and have never had the joy of selling airguns or accessories, I just like guns and this blog.
Decksniper
Geo791,
I can not imagine the frustration you must be feeling. I have a couple of suggestions,.. all of which may sound a bit bizarre,… but here goes,..
1) Have other people you deem worthy,.. shoot it. See how they do.
2) Send it to P.A. and have them look it over and shoot it.
3) Write or E-mail the mfgr. and see what they have to say. You never know, they might send you a new one if there is in fact a verified defect. P.A.’s opinion may help with that.
My Mom, near 80,… has for years wrote letters to companies that she was dissatisfied with/with their product. You would be amazed at some of the responses,.. all to the good. Keep in mind that this is a woman that would never write the first letter had the products performed as advertised. But when they don’t, she is quick to speak up and take action.
That is all I got for ya’ Bud. Best wishes. PCP’s are nice, but I can sympathize with the start up cost aspect. That can vary and prices are coming down and the options are more vast. I have no regrets in going PCP. I recently did two 2 1/2″ groups at 100 yards with a .25 Marauder and kept 30 shots in 1″ at 50 yards with a .22 Maximus. PCP’s are just easier to shoot.
Best wishes again,.. Chris
Hello Chris,
Nice of you to respond. We talked about my issue last fall too. I remember you had some good suggestions for me then. Thanks for your suggestions today too. I do not know anyone who is “worthy” of testing my RWS34. I don’t even know anyone who shoots firearms any more and springers are a whole new ball game in any case. It would seem that shipping costs to and from PA would just add to my expense with no guarantee of a good outcome. I could try writing to the manufacturer about the issue, I would have nothing to lose. I actually bought this rifle at Airgun Depot and have contacted them with my issues but have not gotten a response as of yet.
Wow! I am impressed with your groups with the Marauder. That is a rifle I would consider except for the cost of the HPA source and quality scope. That Maximus shot some nice groups also and that is an affordable PCP which can be pressurized using a hand pump.
Have you seen the new Beeman QB Chief PCP? It appears to be competitive to the Maximus.
Geo791,
Yes, someone here just pointed out the Chief. It looks to be good enough. I have not seriously looked at. I like the looks of the Maximus, a lot, and it is nice and light. At 35 yards and in, you could easily hit whatever you want. GF1 gets better groups with both guns, but he shoots a heck of a lot more than me. I got it last Nov. I think and have shot it plenty. I just got a nicer UTG scope for as it is for sure worthy of it. The CenterPoint it came with was not bad, but I love the super crisp fine lines of the UTG’s.
Your requirements of 1″ @ 25 yards is modest. Good springers should do that, but I guess you have one that proves otherwise. On that Maximus group, that was shots 21-50 on a fill. I was playing around at 70 and 100 and just decided to see how many shots I could get on a 2000 fill when I went for the 30 shots at one target.
Good luck with any new directions you take.
Hello Geo791
One option that has not been sugested yet is a break barrel with the nitrogen spring. I have the Benjamin Trail that can be left cocked because there is no spring to fatigue. I have had mine cocked in ready for an over nite more than once and have seen no ill efects.
Geo791,
The loose fitting pellets are something I have been pondering. Since this is a break barrel, deep seating would ((for sure)) be a method that I would use. Use whatever you need for the pellet to engage the rifling. Just do it the same, every time. No doubt that you have looked down the bore more than you ever cared to. I assume the rifling looks good?
Shoving a pellet down the bore with a cleaning rod would give you an idea of what impact the rifling is having on the pellet. I assume that there is no obvious defect at the start,.. or end (crown) of the rifling?
As for the Maximus barrel, unless I have it wrong, the barrel is reamed to a fixed size prior to rifling. That will insure the same depth of rifling regardless. That being said,.. perhaps it is possible to have an oversized ID barrel,.. that is not reamed,… and therefore will not have as deep as rifling. That might explain the good reviews on the Maximus and may be a “one up” on the Chief.
The only other thought is to check out a RWS exclusive site and start asking questions. Perhaps someone could give you some hard data with digital calipers on the lead in area ( diameter and depth) so you could do some direct comparisons.
Just some more ideas for ya’ Bud,… like you need anymore,.. ehh? 😉
Geo791
You have been asking about your gun for a while now. You asked me a few times even.
You said something this time I don’t think you mentioned before. The pellets fit loose in the barrel. Maybe you got a defective barrel or just a loose one.
Have you thought about looking at different brand pellets and find a pellet with a bigger head diameter than what your using. And a pellet with a thin skirt helps sometimes too.
Well what do yo think?
Hello Gunfun1,
You are correct, I have been seeking help for some time on this forum and you and Chris have responded to me a few times. Yeah, I tried a JSB Exact 15.89g (25) pc sample last summer and I didn’t notice that they fit loosely in the breach but the tin I just purchased do. Maybe I didn’t notice back then because I just loaded and shot the pellets. This time I am de-cocking the rifle with the pellet in the breech and it always fall out during that process, then again when I re-cock the rifle. I have to pick up the pellet and load it back into the breech. If I push the end of the pellet with a ball point pen it moves down the breech easily about 1/4″. This doesn’t happen with the CPHP pellets I have on hand.
Yes, I have tried (25) pc samples of the H&N Trophys with various head diameters. None of the H&Ns grouped well either. I have tried RWS Superdomes, H-points, JSB 15.89g & 14.35g, H&N FTT 5.52,5.53.5.54 head sizes, CPHP 14.3g, and some others I can’t remember. The cheap CPHP group as good as any but have flyers about 1 in 5 shots.
I guess there is no hope for this RWS34 P ever shooting consistent 1″ groups at 25 yards.
Geo
Ok let’s do this so I don’t have to go back and re-read everything. Memory ain’t what it use to be. And here we are now you know what I mean.
We just talked about fit and all. But just got to ask this. Is the gun your talking to us about suppose to to group better than 1″ at 25 yards?
Maybe with the quality of the build that’s the best it will do???
Has anybody else tryed to shoot your gun? Sometimes my daughter’s can out shoot me on a particular day.
Well, according my research online in the reviews of the RWS34, and from Tom Gaylord’s review of this rifle, it should be very capable of 1″ or less groups at 25 yards. This was the information I based my decision on when I purchased the rifle. I have seen a small number of posts about poor groups, but as you know, sometimes it’s the shooter using poor technique.
I don’t know anyone who would be capable of shooting a high powered springer accurately. It’s a leaning process which no powder burner will ever understand unless they actually shoot one. Even the gun shops in my area of Michigan have very limited inventory of quality air guns and seemingly very little knowledge of them.
I have been very open to any and all suggestions from the forum.
Geo
I do believe you just answered your question with your reply.
Sometimes things are more difficult than they seem aren’t they.
George,
You are dealing with the same problem all new airgunners face — learning how to shoot a spring gun accurately. It does take time. I believe you have watched my video on the artillery hold, but if not, I did a much better one for Airgun Academy.
/blog/category/accuracy/
Pyramyd AIR has removed the Airgun Academy link, so this is now found under Instructional Videos.
B.B.
B.B.
I don’t consider myself a newbie, as I have studied and researched everything I could find regarding shooting spring airguns. I have been implementing that information into my shooting for four years and a couple thousand shots. Thank you, I have viewed your artillery hold video more than a couple of times.
George,
I wasn’t certain you had. Not picking — just trying to help.
B.B.
Geo
And a couple thousand shots ain’t much for 4 years.
I can do that many shots within 2 months easy.
I was just letting you know that I don’t consider myself to be a new airgun user, though as you say, I am having the very same issues as one. I know you are trying to help and I do appreciate all of your input.
Geo
4 years. Got to ask. What other air guns have you shot?
Back when I was a youngster I had a Crosman .177 multi-pump with no scope. That thing was very accurate and killed a ton a sparrows. I never critiqued it like the RWS, didn’t have to because I rarely missed with it. My first experience with a magnum springer, gas piston actually, was the Crosman Nitro Venom .22. The gun shoots well and is very powerful but at the time (2013) I didn’t think it was very accurate. Thus my purchase of the RWS 34P. It has about 2000 shots through it I would guess, maybe less. I don’t shoot much in the winter or in the heat of summer. I shoot paper in the spring until I feel confident I have the scope sighted in as best I can with the pellet of choice. Then I only use it to shoot the sparrows from my bluebird nesting boxes at 25 yards. I have made some great shots at 30-35 yards on sparrows, but I have missed many at 25-30 yards too. No, I don’t shoot nearly as much as you guys on the forum and if that it is a prerequisite for shooting a spring airgun accurately, then it probably won’t happen unfortunately.
Geo
I think you probably don’t want to hear my answer. But as it goes practice does make perfect.
And yep them old multi pump guns did shoot didn’t they.
Mr. Johnson,
Don’t give up on your RWS34P just yet.
I know it’s tempting to put it in a closet and forget about it but if it’s any consolation please know that most of us that have shot powerful springers for awhile have been forced to search a long time for accuracy in some guns.
I’ve read about most of your experiences in your quest for 1” groups at 25 yards with your RWS34P in .22 caliber with a Hawke 3-9X50 AO scope sitting atop.
You’ve done the basics, cleaned the barrel with JB Bore paste, checked your stock screws for tightness, experimented with different holds, tried different pellets, verified that your scope mounts haven’t moved, verified that your scope hasn’t moved in the mount, etc.
My first suggestion: If you’ve shot Crosman Premiers and/or Crosman Premier Hollow Points through the gun since cleaning the barrel, clean the barrel again.
It’s unfortunate that your eyes won’t allow you to remove the scope and shoot with open sights. Taking the scope out of this equation could be very telling.
How many shots have you put through this gun? I wouldn’t be too critical of the gun until you have at least 1,000 shots through this Diana/RWS34P.
It’s interesting to note that you have had very different results (group sizes) in different shooting sessions while shooting the same pellet(s). This leads me to believe that you either have a broken spring that is giving you wide velocity variations (not uncommon in Diana guns, even newer Diana guns) or have a problem with the scope.
You need to shoot over a chronograph to determine if your spring is broken.
Let’s talk about your scope. Although the powerful RWS34P is notorious for breaking scopes let’s assume your Hawke scope is fine and doesn’t need to be replaced using Hawke’s great warranty program. Your scopes 50mm objective undoubtedly forced you to use mounts that don’t allow an ideal cheek weld. To insure that you place your chin/cheek/face in the same place on the stock EVERY TIME put a piece of painters tape on your stock. Put something under the painters tape to raise it if you need more positive feedback on your face placement.
I would also strongly encourage you to recheck and readjust your ocular lens of your scope to minimize parallax. Do the head bob test. Parallax could explain your flyers AND differing group sizes with the same pellet.
As others have said, seat your pellets deeply. Use the JSB 15.8 gr pellets after you clean the barrel since these have worked best in all of my Diana 34 guns. Use the cap on the end of a bic ballpoint pen (or equivalent) and evenly push the pellet into the rifling of the barrel until you hear a “CLICK”.
Now I’m going to get into trouble with B.B. with my next piece of advice…..Rest the forearm of your gun ON ITS BALANCE POINT on a narrow shooting bag or even a large bath towel rolled up (THE NARROWER THE BETTER) with rubber bands around it to keep it secure. Put something slick over the shooting bag/towel (like a satin pillow case). Put the gun against your shoulder lightly with the bottom of the stock supported by the side of your fist, adjust your AO so it’s clear, get on target, relax, close your eyes, open your eyes and if you’re still on target squeeze the trigger and never take your eyes off the target until you see the pellet hit. In other words, follow through.
Report back.
Kevin, thank you so much for reviewing my posts regarding my issue with poor groups from my RWS 34P .22. I purchased it in the spring of 2013 and have been experimenting with all of these variables for four years now. I would guess I have shot 1000 shots through it, possibly 2000.
Yes, I have been shooting some CPHPs through it since I used the JB Paste to clean the barrel. Do I need to use the paste again, or just some patches with Balistol and dry patches following? After I did the cleaning last, it took about 50 shots for the rifle to settle back down. The first 50 were pretty erratic.
I will clean the barrel again and then remove the scope to remove it from the equation. I think I can see well enough to shoot some groups…just may not be able to see that 1/2″ bulleye at 25 yards.
I always adjust the objective lens to reduce parallax, and have used the head bog test to verify.
You have some specific suggestions and when I get a chance I will try them all. It may take me a few days to accomplish and report back to you…just know that I am appreciative of your help.
Mr. Johnson,
You’ve been diligent searching for accuracy in your RWS 34P so far. Hang in there.
Crosman Premier pellets contain antimony. This is what make them harder than typical “pure lead” pellets. Because these are hard pellets they tend to shatter in powerful guns like your 34P. Simply pulling a patch through the barrel will not remove the bits and pieces that remain in your barrels rifling. You need to scrub the barrel with a bronze/brass brush loaded with JB Bore paste like you have done in the past. When you clean the JB Bore paste out of your brush (I use spray carburetor cleaner then let the brush dry) don’t be surprised if you see small metal bits in your catch container. Since you have Ballistol, run patches wetted with Ballistol through the barrel until your final patch comes out clean. Yes, many times after cleaning a barrel it will take up to 50 shots to re-season the barrel. Please use JSB pellets to re-season the barrel until we can get this sorted out.
I’m concerned that your confessed eyesight will not be able to shoot well enough with open sights at 25 yards to determine if the scope is the problem. If you feel that you can shoot well enough with open sight at 25 yards by all means see if the gun groups differently than with your scope. Your call.
Using the AO on your objective to adjust out the last bit of parallax is the last step. The first step in adjusting parallax out of your scope for your eyes is by adjusting the ocular (the eyepiece) end of your scope. If you haven’t done that or if the adjustment has moved it could explain much of your problem. Please read this tutorial:
http://www.bcsportsmen.org/ft/A_Team_Parallax_adjustment_procedure.pdf
Please let me know if you have any questions.
How providential for this history-making gun to be profiled as I face my moment of reckoning with M1 Garand tomorrow. I wonder what Las Vegas would make of my odds of finally solving my problems after a decade of failure and expense. You might think of the scene in Lord of the Rings where the people of Gondor give flowers to the armored knights going out on a suicidal mission. Anyway, thanks for the good wishes and advice. I am actually cautiously optimistic with my array of loads and my ability to control the gas system.
Gunfun1, I haven’t had time to look into the FX Revolution, but the analog with the gas system of firearms is intriguing. I’ll have a look after my showdown with the M1. ChrisUSA, right on. You’re sounding like the U.S.S. Enterprise and it’s mission to boldly go where no man has gone before.
Silver Eagle, you’re a good citizen to crush unusable brass, but that’s not a universal practice. Perhaps, your idea of sealed primers is related to the color coding idea that I heard about. You’ve got me wondering about how to know when your brass has come to the end of its life as some of mine seems to be doing. So far, I’ve been looking for overt flaws and have not really found any. Otherwise, I remember that you are supposed to look for a bright ring around the case head. I’ve been looking for lines and have found some mild discoloration there, but nothing serious so far. But in the latest batch, there has been a ring that has started to lighten, and I discarded one of those. Is there anything else to look for?
Matt61
Matt61
Check out the FX Revolution. I think there is some FX video’s of how the system works. But kind of looks like it has some similar characteristics that your firearm has.
Check it out whenever. No hurry. Just like to see what you think about it.
GF1,
New UTG mounted and sighted at 37 yards. Also did 50, 30 and 25 hold over/under’s. I was real lucky to do that, but caught a break between storm fronts. The Ol’ Girl is as accurate as ever. (Maximus .22) I hate to be under pressure (rain soon) like that for sight in and collecting data. At any rate, it is done and ready to shoot in the future.
Chris U
Cool. Does the scope seam clearer and brighter with the 30 mm tube?
GF1,
Yes it does, but it was almost dark as a new storm was incoming,.. at least that is how it looked. No rain yet. I was getting spattered with occasional rain drops. I was lucky to even get out today. Looking forward to getting out on a normal day.
Chris U
Isn’t that why people get scopes like that. To help in not ideal conditions.
Here is the link back to last Dec when B.B created the blog mentioned above about the accuracy of my RWS34 P.
I have a post near the bottom with even another link going back to the summer 2016.
/blog/2016/12/why-wont-my-new-air-rifle-shoot-well/
Well, if it’s a Vulcan then in its day it was an 11.5fpe rifle in 22, I know, I had one, the trigger used to jar your finger right in the joint and a trigger shoe was almost universally fitted. Some people loved them, I couldn’t stand the thing tbh.
It actually looks a little undersized for a Vulcan, more Webley Victor sized (shorter stroked, 9fpe) or maybe Hawk mk3, hard to say though, they were all much of a muchness, the Vulcan weighed in at around 8lbs mind, if it’s significantly lighter then possibly another variant
Is the barrel marked 22 or 5.5? (Webley were the first British to conform to the German “metricisation” of the calibre)
Dom,
Beeman would have had it marked as .22 caliber, but it would also have said 5.5mm.
B.B.
Geo791—If I lived near you, I would let you shoot some of my rifles that can shoot 1” or less at 25 yds. I would like to see if you can get 1″ groups with other rifles. You did mention that you had a vision problem. Are you shooting any other air rifles, or firearms ? If you are, what kind of groups are you getting with them? Are your scope and its mounts adjusted correctly? Perhaps you should try another scope? I left my Winchester 600 cocked for 2 months. It,s accuracy did not change and it had the same velocity when I chronographed it again. And last of all, have you tried using a pellet seater ? It might solve 2 of your problems—Changing the searing depth of the pellets might improve accuracy, and prevent them from falling out if you de-cock your rifle.——-Ed
Thank you for your response to my issue. No, I do not shoot firearms anymore because I would have to drive to a range somewhere and that’s not something I would want to do. I started my airgun shooting in 2013 with a Crosman Nitro Venom .22 pellet gun. After shooting 2″ groups with that at 20 yards, I gave up on it pretty quickly and bought the RWS34P .22 caliber hoping for 1″ groups at 25 yards. I actually have the same issue with the RWS as I had with the Crosman Venom. I was thinking of resetting my scope. It’s a Hawke 3-9x50AO scope, so not a cheapy scope. Will check into the pellet seating idea too.
What’s the best way to seat the pellet to a consistent depth? I have a pellet pen but that doesn’t really seat the pellet to a exact depth consistently.
Geo791—–Spelling error, searing depth should be SEATING depth.—–Ed
BB—-The safety on my C1 is on the left side . Your original C1 post, and this updated post still has it on the right side of the rifle. I just took my C1 off the rack and the safety is still on the left side ( holding the rifle and pointing it at the target. ) That means that on of us must have a rare and unusual C1. —-Ed
I’ve been reading and researching airguns for a while. This grows out of frustration with my Gamo Hunter 440 in .22 cal. that I bought it about 4 years ago to kill chipmunks. That year we were overrun with the critters. I had been running a “trap and release” program and had trapped 21 chipmunks when the state game folk told me that was illegal. Oh well, I’ll just get a spring gun and shoot the pests.
Just to allay any concerns, I was not dumping the trapped chipmunks on neighbors. We live in a rural area, about 10 miles from town and are surrounded by active farms and state forests and hunting land. Mine was humane relocation program for both man and beast.
More recently squirrels have become a nuisance. I’ve managed to do away with a couple but that has been more by luck than any ability that I have to predict the shot placement. Who knew that airguns would be so finicky? Pellet choice, shooting hold, lots of break-in shooting, and more. WOW! Back to Pyramid Air Blogs.
Before I bought my Gamo 440, I had done some research, including reading some (obviously, not enough) of the Pyramid Blogs. I learned that 22 cal was a better choice for a humane kill. I also learned that not just any scope would survive a spring gun recoil. I bought a Leapers UTG airgun rated 3×9 AO scope and mounted it carefully. Since I was buying a Gamo airgun, I bought 5 tins of Gamo Hunter pellets as well. Reading now, those probably were not the best choice, but what did I know?
At this point I’ve been chasing the point of impact around the target with the scope settings. Shoot 5 shots adjust scope, shoot 5, adjust scope and on, and on… Shooting a fair amount but not with any improvement in repeatable accuracy.
Recently read a blog by BB that explained the internal mechanics of a scope sight. I think that I may have done what BB described, having backed the settings so far out that the tube and reticle is floating with each shot.
If that is the condition of my scope, then I need to get “control” of the reticle movement. I’ve read of “centering” a scope sight by backing out both settings out fully, then turning them in fully, while counting the turns, then backing out half way. I think that should stabilize the reticle, though I’m sure that the POA and POI will be far apart. Any thoughts about that?
Read a series of three articles by BB regarding accuracy in which he pointed out that a “true” barrel is not a given. If I understand the article correctly, a “true” barrel is less rather more likely. So rather than just parking the scope on the gun and assuming that it and the barrel are in correct alignment, I bought a 22 cal laser bore sighter. I am thinking to try to shim the scope to get close to the laser dot as a place to re-start my quest for accuracy. I also bought a tin of the JSB Test pellets.
At this point I just want to be able to dispatch marauding squirrels. I think that Gunfun1 said, “I like to plink accurately.” So while my primary goal is not punching super tight groups of holes in paper targets, I think that is the path along which I will need to travel in order to find the kind of accuracy that I want.
The 440 Hunter is as I bought it. I’ve made no modifications other than mounting the scope sight. The scope is a must-have. I’ve worn glasses from first grade. At 77 years, my eyes have definitely not improved.
As I read more it seems that tuning and accuracy are not closely related, except as tuning makes the shooting experience more pleasant. Thoughts?
I welcome any suggestions, recommendations from the forum. There are forum contributors who have decades of experience and significant mechanical skills (and workshops). I’m hoping to short-cut some of those years by hitch-hiking on the generous sharing of the experience of others.
Are there things that are must-do to improve the gun other than selling it and buying a much better quality airgun?
GrandpaDan
GrandpaDan
I totally empathize with you. I am 70 years of age and also have worn glasses since I was two. In addition, I do not have depth perception because my left eye only works for peripheral. Didn’t even know that until I was 18 and went for an army physical. I too have been chasing the POI around but in my case I have only made small scope adjustments because my groups are not consistent and are about 2″ at 25 yards. MY main purpose for my RSW 34P .22 is to dispatch house sparrows from my bluebird nesting boxes at 25 yards from my back door. I have four nesting boxes and it’s a chore keeping the sparrows away from them.
I did not realize how difficult shooting a magnum spring airgun was going to be when I bought it. There are SO many variables. Very hold sensitive and must use an artillery hold. Have to try several different pellet brands and weights for find the one your airgun likes. Make sure none of the stock screws or scope screws loosen (I use blue lock-tite). Make sure scope or mounts don’t move. My problem has been trying to separate and identify which of these items is causing my poor shot groups. I would like to be able to eliminate the pellet selection from the list but still after trying RWS Superdomes and Hollow Points, H&N FTT in all sizes, JSBs in 14.3g, 15.8g, & 18g, Crosman 14.3g & hollow points, and others – cannot determine that one is better than another.
I am not an airgun hobbyist like many on this forum. I just want one accurate rife that will hit what I aim at.
I really don’t want to deal with all these spring airgun issues. I have over $500 invested in two inaccurate, for me anyway, airguns.
I wish I had spent a little more and bought an entry level PCP which could be charged with a hand pump.
There are many more options now than in 2013 when I began this process. If there were any gunshops near me that had a good airgun department, I would take my Crosman Nitro Venom and my Diana RWS 34 both and trade them in on a PCP and hand pump. Unfortunately I have not found a gunshop that has a decent airgun department. So….I just keep trying different ideas from the good folks here on the forum and hope that I can achieve acceptable results at some point. They are saying “practice makes perfect” but I don’t think I will live long enough to get even close to perfect. Wish I could give you some good advice but I am here for the same reason as you….my spring airgun in not accurate. Good luck in your quest for decent accuracy. It can be VERY frustrating!
geo791
Let’s try my way .
I see two red flags concerning your problem .
First, is this rifle droopy ? Dianas are notorious for it . Do you have a drooper mount ?
Second, pellet fit, or lack of .
You say your pellets just drop in, sometimes below the edge of the bore . This is suspect .
Pellet skirts are larger than the bore or the pellet head . Skirts are usually larger than the grooves too .
Push a pellet half way down the barrel, then push it back out . Did it push VERY easy ? Did the rifling engrave the head ?
Find the tightest fitting pellet you can, and slowly push it all the way through the barrel . What does it feel like ? Loose, tight, bumpy, rough ?
twotalon
Twotalon
Yes, the RWS 34P combo came with a Hawke 3-9x50AO IR scope with an RWS one piece lock down mount. I removed the scope today and will do some work on it to make sure it is centered optically in it’s range.
Okay, I inserted a JSB 15.89 gr pellet into the breach and then used my cleaning rod to push it on through. For the first 6″ or so, the pellet pushed fairly easily. Then there was very little resistance until it reached within about 1″ to 2″ from the muzzle. Then there was a moderate amount of resistance towards the end of the muzzle, almost like the barrel was choked. Then I viewed the pellet with my jeweler’s eyepiece and there were no perceivable marks on the head from the rifling. The skirt had some slight marks and the skirt was crushed down to the same O.D. as the head.
I thought the resistance felt strange going from slight resistance, to no resistance, and then back to moderate resistance. It’s like the bore is barrel shaped (no pun intended) meaning it’s larger in the center than on either end. I would say it was on the loose side but not bumpy or rough.
Next I did a pellet analysis. I use my 1″ micrometer and jeweler’s eyepiece to carefully measure the head and skirt on (20) JSB 15.89 gr pellets. These are the one’s that are fitting loosely in the breach.
The pellets were very consistent.
The heads measured 5.49mm to 5.50mm on a (20) pc sample. The skirts measured 5.69mm to 5.72mm on the same sample. Seems like the head size is a little small to me.
I measures a sample of CPHP pellets 14.3 gr.
Heads measured 5.50mm to 5.54mm with one pc at 5.38mm (that’s probably a flyer)
Skirts measured 5.61mm to 5.64 mm on (10) pc sample
I measured some left over RWS Superdomes I had enough for a (10) pc sample
Head measured 5.51mm on all (10) pcs, very consistant
Skirt measured 5.73mm to 5.74mm on (10) pcs
I also noticed that the RWS and the JSB pellets were of a much higher quality. They were more consistent and roundness was better than the Crosman Premier HPs which have a noticeable parting line from the molding process. I had some dome pellets and they are the same crude looking pellet. I was a quality inspector for forty years at a hydraulic pump division so I know quality.
After I removed the scope from the rifle I cleaned the barrel again with JB bore paste and a brass brush as per Tom Gaylord’s instructions. I was advised to clean the barrel again after having shot the CPHP pellets through it and then reseason with the JSB pellets. That’s all I had time to accomplish today. Welcome your thoughts on my findings. You have at least lead me down a different path than most of the other posters.
geo
I like to know what I’m working with . Seen many gremlins . If something is distinctly wrong with the gun, then nothing else I do is going to help much .
Check some other pellets for fit by pushing them both half way through, and all the way.
Look for barrel droop. Some are so hideous you can easily see it just looking down the side of the rifle.
tt
Geo791
You too. Don’t know if you read the blog everyday. BB did a blog today that included you too.
/blog/2017/05/answering-grandpadan-the-biggest-blog-ever/
Grandpa,
You sound as if you have a good grasp of the essentials. Yes on using a scope. A shim in the rear bottom will insure you are not topped out on elevation. I use a piece of cut up tooth paste tube. Soft, malleable, and about .011″ I believe without checking. I would (not) recommend going to the top as the adjustment just might come all of the way out. Yes on the paper. That way you know what you are doing. (Bench rest it.) To get the best, take “you” out of the equation as much as possible. If sighting and seeing what a rifle can do, I use a rear rest under the pistol grip. Yes, a tune will generally help the smoothness more. PCP tunes can achieve better shot count, consistency,… both of which help with accuracy. JSB’s are a great start. I use them in all of mine despite trying other brands.
You are likely up against a wall with a Gamo. Not that it can’t be better. Eliminate what you can and go from there.
Please keep us posted,… Chris
Grandpa,
On the A.O.,.. side or up front,.. that can vary with temperature by quite a bit. The main thing is are you sure you have the clearest picture? Can you see the veins of a leaf at 50 yards,.. at 25 yards? Do not trust the A.O. markings,… they can vary a lot from scope to scope. I use higher quality graph paper with stickers with duct tape on the back to reduce paper tears. The fine blue lines of the paper will be a tell tale sign of when you are dead set. I will also make a series of hash marks from 1/4″ tall to a 1/2″ or 3/4″ tall on the target. That will further insure that the A.O. is dialed in to perfection. Just another tip for you as it sounds as if you are not used to shooting at paper. Heck, write your name in cursive,… and get that nice and clear in the scope,.. at least we older folks can do that, (cursive)… not so much for the younger crowd. 😉
Grandpa Dan
Don’t know if you read the blog everyday. But BB did a blog today about you.
Check it out.
/blog/2017/05/answering-grandpadan-the-biggest-blog-ever/
Geo791—–Pyramyd has a video –how to use the pellet pen and seater , agr #80. Air gun t v has aninteresting video re pellet seating. Viewing their videos is better than trying to follow written instructions. Let us know if their methods improve your groups. —–Ed
GrandpaDan—-If BB would test the Burris Signature rings with the off set inserts, I am sure that he would recommend them to solve your problem. They work for me. Far better than shims. Just look up the Burris web site to see how they work. You are not hitchhiking. As Sir Issac Newton once said, you are ” standing on the shoulders of giants”.That is what giants are for !——Ed