SHOT Show 2018: Part 4

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

This report covers:

  • The big news
  • Benjamin Fortitude
  • Marauder Field and Target
  • Akura
  • Traveler
  • SigASP20
  • Tight breech and no droop
  • The trigger
  • AirForce E-Pump

I will start the third day on the SHOT Show floor with Crosman. They always have loads of new products and this year was no exception. I actually had to visit the booth two separate times to get what I am about to tell you.

The big news

So — what’s the big news at Crosman? I guess that depends on what interests you, but since I am defining this year’s show as the battle of the price-point PCPs (precharged pneumatic rifles with upscale features selling for under $300), let’s start with the Fortitude.

Benjamin Fortitude

Benjamin’s new Fortitude PCP is regulated, a repeater and has a shroud. It is positioned between the Discovery and the Marauder.

Fortitude
Benjamin Fortitude.

Does it have the latest Crosman barrel-rifling technology? Yes! Does it have a Marauder trigger? No, but one can be fitted. I will have to test it to say any more, but with the features it has, and with Crosman’s manufacturing experience behind it, I would say the Fortitude belongs on your short list.

Marauder Field and Target

There wasn’t a new Marauder Field and Target rifle at the show, but I was told its features are the same as the Custom Shop Marauder that was there. This is the upgraded Marauder rifle that was announced last year but never made it to market.

Marauder Field and Target
Benjamin Marauder Field and Target.

According to Crosman, this one has the new barrel technology and of course it is regulated. The regulator works all the time, unlike the rifle they showed last year, and I think that is the way most shooters will want it. The top of the receiver is cut in a Picatinney rail, making scope mounting easier. All other features that come with the Marauder are there, too.

Akura

Another innovation is the new Benjamin Akura breakbarrel. It features the Precision Barrel Lock, or PBL, that tightens the breech at the shot. Air from the shot pushes a pin into a hole that locks the breech tight as the pellet is moving forward. Crosman says this improves accuracy. The Akura comes in .177 and .22.

Benjamin Akura
Benjamin Akura breakbarrel with the Precision Barrel Lock (PBL) is new for 2018.

Akura PBL
Air from the shot forces a pin back into the spring tube to lock the breech.

Traveler

Another innovative product from Crosman this year is their new Traveler air compressor. It compresses air to 4,500 psi and operates on 110 volt household current or 12 volts from a car battery. It comes with an inverter to run on 110 volt AC. It includes a port for an inline oil and water separator

Traveler
The Traveler from Crosman is a lightweight portable air compressor.

The Traveler is small and lightweight, so it’s convenient to carry with you. It’s meant for filling airguns — not bulk tanks, and I was told they recommend operating it for not longer than 45 minutes at a time, if you run it continuously. Some sample fill times are:

Gun…………..……Fill…………Time
Maximus……..…0 to 2000…….3 min. 25 sec.
Marauder……..…0 to 3000…….8 min.
Marauder………2000 to 3000….3 min.
Marauder pistol…0 to 3000….…2.5 minutes

The planned MSRP is $650, which puts the Traveler in a good position. I have called 2018 the year of the price-point PCP, but it’s also the year of the compressor. We have now seen two and more are coming.

Sig ASP20

There is more to see at Crosman, but let’s move on now to Sig, where I got to see and handle their new breakbarrel. The ASP20 is a ground-up design. Sig now has Ed Schultz, who should be well-known to my readers as the creator of the Benjamin Discovery and the Marauder. He showed me the design details of this new springer (gas spring) and I was amazed!

Sig ASP20
Sig’s ASP20 is new from the ground up.

Tight breech and no droop!

These two features should get your springer geek juices flowing! Ed told me that the team of Sig engineers took an entirely new approach with this air rifle. Sig has completely redesigned the breech lockup to give bank-vault security. The top of the breech flares out as a wedge and the detent pulls the breech down when the barrel is closed. That makes this breech like a keystone in an arch.

Keystone breech
When this keystone breech closes, the detent pulls the breech down and the two wedges pull it tight against the action forks.

Just by itself the keystone breech is a wonder, BUT — Sig found a way to eliminate barrel droop. They bore the holes for the pivot pin through both the breech and the action forks with them assembled. That ensures perfect barrel/spring tube alignment! If there were awards for airgun design, this breech would get one.

The trigger

Then I cocked the rifle and discovered how easy it is! Sig rep. Dani Navickas told me she cocked the rifle for shooters at least 100 times at the Sig Range Day and had no pain afterwards.

Then I squeezed the trigger. It’s too soon to tell Rekord to move over, but there is a new kid in town!

trigger
I liked the trigger a lot!

Airforce E-Pump

Okay — last item. Remember I told you there are a lot of compressors this year? AirForce Airguns has a new one called the E-Pump. It’s also small and portable, though a little heavier than the Crosman Traveler. The AirForce model can run all the time and fill tanks as well as guns, but it runs slower and cooler than any other compressor on the market. As a result, when it fills a tank to 4,500 psi, there is no shrinkage from the heat buildup. You end up with 4500 psi, no less.

E-Pump
The AirForce E-Pump.

The E-Pump is extremely quiet. I can’t hear it operate when they run it at the show. It also operates slow and steady. Ton Jones tells me he hooks it up to his carbon fiber tank at night and just lets it run. It shuts off automatically when the set pressure is reached, and the line will hold air until you release it. Then he loads his truck to go to the range and in that time the pump fills his rifle tank.

This compressor runs on 12 volt, 110 and 220, so it is ready to go anywhere in the world. It’s priced at $850, retail..

That’s it for this week. Old BB is tired and wants to get back home to sleep in his own bed. Monday I’ll give you a break from the show and do something historical.

224 thoughts on “SHOT Show 2018: Part 4


    • Bej,

      I watched them test this compressor all last year — trying to make it fail. Each time it did (which wasn’t often) it was disassembled and examined. I believe that now the only thing that wears are the seals, which they will make available. All compressors will wear seals, so this one is very rugged!

      B.B.


  1. B.B.

    Nothing like the comfort of your own bed…..
    That Sig ASP20 has me real excited! It seems to be the first truly 21 Century break barrel.
    I know it is 45 something inches long. Any idea how heavy it is?
    Hope you get an early edition and can do a full test, including explaining all the “break through” technologies.

    Rest well,

    Yogi


  2. BB
    Only one of the fill times for the Crosman pump is relevant.

    Marauder………2000 to 3000….3 min.

    The other fill times are from a zero starting pressure.

    And from 2000-3000 is faster than my Shoebox compressor I had. It took my Shoebox around 6 or so minutes to fill the Marauder I had. Don’t know if that’s faster than my China compressor though. Don’t have a Marauder to find out.

    But I do know my China compressor will fill my Maximus from 800 psi to 3000 in a bit over a 1-1/2 minutes. So I have to say my China compressor is faster than the Crosman pump also.

    But nice to see more compressor’s coming about. But price is the next question.






          • I know you’re busy B.B., but I couldn’t make the show this year and I’d like to know if the new AF Hi-Flow Condor valve with the AirForce Ring-Loc Valve Pin Cap Kit can be installed in my TalonP. I’ve also been thinking about buying a new Condor tank so maybe a new Condor tank will be another way to get the new adjustable valve feature.

            My TalonP update (for when you’re not so busy):
            I finally got it to shoot by turning down the breech of a new “surplus” 18.5″ 22 cal. FX L-W barrel and ditching my AF OEM 25 cal. L-W. I haven’t even precisely found both sides of the velocity curve on my first hour with the new barrel and only JSB Heavy pellets but easily shot five shots into a dime at 50 yards. That’s 1005 fps / 41 ft*lb and I used 2400 psi fill and power wheel 6. I can’t believe how much time I wasted trying to make the OEM L-W barrel shoot with dozens of different pellets and slugs. I think the problem was some tight spots in the middle of its bore. Now I’d like to turn .177 and .257 barrels I have in inventory–hence my interest in the new Ring-Loc Valve Pin Cap Kit!

            -Cal


  3. B.B.,

    It looks like Sig is out to take a slice of the airgun market. They have the CO2 covered and now they are starting on the spring/gas pistons. I think it will be a couple of more years before they put out a PCP though probably due to a non-compete agreement when they got Ed Schultz.

    The future keeps getting brighter and brighter.

    Siraniko


  4. B.B.,

    Every thing you mentioned in this report looks like a winner. It is good to hear Crosman is using their new barrel technology in the Fortitude and the Marauder. They are also offering the L/W barrels in their custom shop for both .177 and .22. So they have their barrels up to snuff now.

    It is going to be hard not to buy a compressor this year!

    Sleep in and or take a nap. Great reports on the SHOT Show.

    Don




      • I shoot FT with a gen 1 Crosman Marauder, and it is a 1 MOA rifle, after the 4th barrel (2012 vintage). The original Crosman barrel was terrible, a borrowed Crosman very good. First LW had a bad leade, and second LW is great. I joke about having the most expensive Marauder ever (custom Corcoran stock, tuning by Paul Bracaglia), but it is deadly accurate out to 45 yds or so with 10.3 gr JSB at just under 20 FPE. Excellent trigger, well balanced. The new offering sounds to be a competitive FT rifle at a good price point. If they are shipping consistently good barrels (rare for ANY airgun make) this will be a winner.


        • Jerry,

          I went through over a year and about 30 kinds of pellets on my original Marauder gen II barrel. I finally bought a MM hammer forged barrel and have been happy with the accuracy.

          The trigger is tricky, I adjusted it till it was ok but a single stage. I finally opened the cover to discover I had the screws way off even though I thought I only made one or two turns. Once I adjusted it with the cover off I only turned one screw about 1/8 turn to get it very good with a clean break. I don’t see how it can be tuned without seeing what is going on.

          I have been having great luck with the Maximus barrels. If the new .22 Marauder barrels are as good as the Maximus barrels I have no complaints.

          A Fortitude has moved to the top of my list. It looks like the Fortitude and Marauder now share the same barrels in .177 and .22 caliber.

          Don


  5. Crosman seems to be trying to be innovative with their sproingers again this year, but I have heard no mention of them bragging about their triggers on them. They are playing with magazines and barrel locks, but if they do not do anything with those triggers, it is all just fluff.

    They should have hung on to Ed. That Sig sounds real promising from what all I have seen and read.


    • RR,

      I think the Marauder trigger is Crosman’s high-water mark. Why change something that works that well?

      Yes, I do agree that Ed is one of the best engineers in the business. I think it’s because he is also a shooter and an airgunner. I can talk with him on any airgun subject and he is fully knowledgeable.

      I’m looking at the Sig rifle again this morning and I hope to test one real soon. Dani Navickas told me to test the .22, which is her favorite. It would be mine, as well.

      B.B.


      • BB,

        I am talking of their sproinger triggers, not the PCP triggers. I saw Tyler Patner’s review of the latest version of Crosman’s / Benjamin’s NP air rifle and he did not have much good to say about the trigger. It is still heavy and loaded with creep.


    • if you shoot a rifle enough with a “bad” trigger you can be as good with it as if it had a good trigger. I have seen that with the old savage HB rifles. david tubb best marksman for the last 30 years says the same thing that any trigger can be mastered




          • A corollary this is if you have several guns of different make/model, you have several types of triggers with different feel. I have never bought an air gun (rifle or pistol) with the trigger as being the primary selling point. Switching around in a days shooting is enough to give your trigger finger a head-ache. 🙂
            Larry in Algona


          • Mildot,

            My personal philosophy is if I buy that air rifle with the lousy trigger, the manufacturer will not be encouraged to do something about it. Crosman has known for many years that they have a lousy trigger, however the big box stores are buying these in bulk so nothing is done to improve things except dress up the new model a little bit every year.

            The only reason Crosman came out with a multi-shot sproinger is because Gamo left them in the dirt last year. Crosman’s system is also much more complicated and bulkier.

            Gamo also has been continuously improving their triggers and from what I hear the C.A.T. is much better than the Crosman.

            When Ed Shultz was at Crosman, the company did innovative things. Now they just dress up the pig in a different outfit every year. The Fortitude is nothing more than a multi-shot Katana.

            I do apologize if I sounded like I was coming down on you. That was not my intent. I guess I am just ticked off with Crosman as an American company allowing others to be innovative and they follow along behind and use their flashy marketing campaigns to make the world think they know what they are doing.


            • RR
              Can you say China.

              I won’t touch the Crosman/Benjamin springers or nitro piston guns. Now their pump guns and pcp’s give the compitition a run for their money.

              As you already know I’m sure.


            • I never thought you were rude at all just giving your opinion. the way I see it with springers is most of the accuracy comes from the hold the lock up and the barrel. so you can have a great trigger but if you do not hold it right or have a bad barrel and lockup or combination the trigger would not matter


              • Mildot52
                Gunfun1
                RidgeRunner
                OK, guys let me throw out an idea here and see what you think. I’ve already gone on record as being a big fan of the triggers on my FWB 124 and FWB 127. As has also been mentioned in this blog, this trigger is so simplistic no one even compares it to a Rekord or T06. Fair enough. When I replaced the trigger in my 127 I did find out how simple it was – everything rests on the shape of the trigger and the strength of the safety spring to control the trigger pull weight and one adjustment screw you REALLY have to fiddle with to get that set trigger feel. So, here’s my question: This is so simple, with so few moving parts, why hasn’t anyone else tried to copy it? I still prefer this trigger to what I have on my other variety of air rifles. These triggers are probably half a century old in design so surely patent/copyright laws no longer apply. I would think it would be a simple matter to upgrade it to add an adjustment screw on that trigger weight spring also. Even the Chinese with their reverse engineering haven’t tried to copy it (as far as I know).
                Any thoughts on this?
                LMo



                • LMo,

                  The majority of my sproingers have single stage triggers. They tend to have a heavy pull by today’s standards, but they break cleanly.

                  One of the newer triggers I have been pleasantly surprised with is the Hatsan Quatro trigger. I have one on my “Webley” Tomahawk. I find it performs quite nicely.

                  Now as for those FWB triggers, I have not had the pleasure of trying those out, but both GF1 and I have pulled on the FWB 300 trigger and we know that Feinwerkbau knows what they are doing.


                  • RR
                    Thanks for your response. I agree with you on the Quattro trigger having one on a model 95. Other triggers I find pleasing are on my Walther Terrus and my Xisico XS25 – a knockoff of the T05. Also, my Webley Premier Mk II pistol, but then it’s had 40 years to break in. I’m finding that I don’t want a target trigger since I just plink and hunt small game and pests. And, to be perfectly honest, at my age anything under 2 lbs is just not safe in my hands. I’ve been practicing shooting offhand at my indoor target this winter with iron sights and find the best rifles for this are the Terrus and the XS25 – even the FWBs are sometimes too light.


              • Those are all VERY important, I agree. It is the entire package that makes it happen. I guess I am spoiled because I do not have to worry about those with almost all of the sproingers I own. Most of them have single stage triggers. By today’s standards they are not very light, but they break cleanly.


  6. B.B.,

    Very nice. Have a fun last day at the show and have a safe trip back home. Get some rest. Looking forwards to hearing much more about your show adventures and findings.

    Chris


  7. checked sig’s web site:

    The .177 caliber ASP20 air rifle is ideal for hunting small game such as squirrels, crows and rodents while the .22 caliber model is well suited for hunting slightly larger animals such as woodchucks and groundhogs. The ASP20 has a SIG SAUER rifled steel barrel and is available with either a synthetic or wood stock. The SIG SAUER Whiskey3 ASP 4-12×44 Adjustable Objective (AO) riflescope, designed to handle the extreme bi-directional recoil of air rifles, will also be available for the ASP20 in May 2018.

    MSRP:
    .177 Wood Stock, Suppressor: $489.99
    .22 Wood Stock, Suppressor: $489.99

    .177 Synthetic Stock, Suppressor: $399.99
    .22 Synthetic Stock, Suppressor: $399.99

    WHISKEY3 ASP 4-12×44 AO Riflescope: $359.99


  8. Sorry missed the really important part: (seems they agree with BB about a few things)

    Velocity vs. Muzzle Energy
    Powered by a gas piston, the .177 caliber ASP20 delivers 20 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) of energy with muzzle velocity of 1021 feet per second (fps) using a 8.64 grain lead pellet while the .22 caliber delivers 23 ft-lbs of energy and a muzzle velocity of 841 fps with a 14.65 grain lead pellet. A common misconception among many is that high muzzle velocity makes for a better air rifle. In actuality, foot-pound muzzle energy is a more accurate gauge of the power of air rifles than the speed at which a projectile comes out of the barrel. Down-range accuracy and retained energy are better with a heavier projectile leaving the barrel at subsonic speed rather than an impractically-lightweight projectile leaving the barrel at a supersonic speed of 1400+ feet per second.


  9. BB

    The new SIG springer is on my short list. I have a feeling it is headed for back order status but I will wait for your tests before buying.

    Do go home and get some long undisturbed rest.

    Decksniper


    • Decksniper,

      I have 3 cats, so my rest may be long but it will never be undisturbed. If they can’t wake me by dancing on my face they will throw up on the floor to get me going. They operate as a tag team, so 2 are always resting while 1 does the work.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        I was wondering about the cats. I do know the experience. I have one that just has to knead me with his claws out. I have tried putting something thicker between him and me, but he seems determined to get past it. Of course, I still love him.

        ~ken



          • Man after hearing all that. We’re lucky our cat is real good. She just lays around and purrs. She plays also. Especially with the big tree house deal my oldest daughter got for the cat. The thing almost touches the ceiling.

            Well she does get spunky at times and the cat and dog chase each other around the house at a hundred miles an hour. And yes the cat does chase the dog. But they never fight. Kind of surprising to watch actually.




          • Gunfun1,

            That’s great. The tree house is great. Cats love that. Although the two cats who are outside so lounge around in the yard and on the driveway they prefer to be off the ground to sleep.
            I, too, had a dog and cat who played together. They have all added something to my life.

            ~ken



              • The dogs and cats I have known have made life so much richer – I can’t imagine a world without them!

                As for the products here, those compressors look like they might be game changers by giving some good options at some lower price ranges to the market. Personally I really like airguns that need me to directly put the energy into them with my own muscles so I favor springers, ssp’s, multi-pumps etc. but the possibility of being able to refill a tank at home could lure me into the PCP world.


                • Nowhere
                  Yep those pets can be something else.

                  And yep don’t think the Crosman pump is heavy duty. Sounds like it will be good for just filling guns.

                  But it is nice to see more coming to market.


  10. WOW!! This is going to be a heck of a year for anybody who was considering getting into PCPs!

    “They are listening” and I am impressed. The new rifles are a good value at a great price. I’m definitely considering getting a couple of these rifles.

    Think that economical HPA compressors are going to be the key to this market. Would be great if somebody could design/market a small tank (like those 20 oz Co2 tanks but for HPA) that could be teamed up to one of these compressors to make a mini-fill station. Quick-fill a rifle and let the compressor top off the tank while you are shooting, no need to wait around.

    Guessing that the $300 entry level PCPs will spawn higher priced “deluxe” versions for the more serious shooter and this will put pressure on the high-end rifle manufacturers to lower their prices – IMHO they have had it too good for too long.

    Hank


    • Hank
      It looks to me in most cases that they took some features from the high end guns and incorporated them into a lower end gun already.

      All in all it’s good to see the lower dollar guns surfacing with the added features. Now they just got to bring the price of the compressor down. Same thought process. A more dollar friendly compressor with only the features needed for a given type of job to do. Surprised Umarex hasn’t teamed up with those China compressor’s and put a different name on them yet.


  11. BB,

    Don’t worry about who may have spilled whatever kettle of beans,before you got to cover the show in your blog.It doesn’t matter.Walking with you through Shot Show is now a tradition,and not to be missed.No one does it like you do.You show us where to find the vitas,when and how to smell the flowers.

    Once again,Thank You so much.

    Tin Can Man-


  12. I’m not sure if it’s caused by some nearby light or something, but the Sig ASP20 looks like it has a brownish stock, with the other half being tactical black.

    Hope it’s all tactical black.



      • Nice.

        Also, I hope gas ram technology has improved. My gas ram (Gamo Whisper X) is nice to shoot, but the sharp action of the ram causes my scope to slowly move backwards towards the plastic sheath.

        I half-solved this issue by rubbing all traces of grease etc from the dovetail so that my scope rings grip better. Also, I never use one-piece fixed scope rings. But still it very slightly still moves back from the recoil. And my gun is only 12ft pound, so God only knows what a really powerful gas ram air rifle’s recoil would affect a dovetail-fitted scope.

        This issue causes me significant frustration, to say the least.

        I actually took out the stop-bolt that fits into the little hole on the barrel after reading horror stories telling how the recoil of my same gun merely dragged the bolt through the soft metal, leaving a gaping long hole….

        But yeah, I really hope this issue has been solved somehow, because I personally prefer gas rams to springers.



        • Chris,
          I had the same problem with my Gamo Bone Collector. I kept having to fiddle with the scope mount due to the creeping and saw that the stop-bolt was also pushing thru the metal. I solved the problem by cleaning the dovetail with degreaser, and to the underside of the scope mount and in the dovetail groves I applied a bit of Loctite Hi-Tack Gasket Dressing which I had handy in my Harley tools. I also refined my scope mounting technique by VERY evenly tightening the the scope screws and haven’t had a problem since. That Gasket Dressing seems to be some pretty good stuff!
          Larry In Algona




            • Chris, I’m familiar with these tho I don’t have one. I do have other brands of rifles with gas rams that did not have this problem. The IGT ram seems to be VERY snappy! If you can find some of that gasket dressing you might try it, too.
              LMo



                • Chris,
                  Right. I mentioned before on today’s blog that I somewhat of a Luddite when it comes to airguns. That may have been latent before, but I think the Bone Collector really brought it out – all of my newer acquisitions have been springs AND I’m removing more of my scopes to use the iron sights!
                  LMo


                  • LarryMo,

                    Did you have the green Bone Collector? Or was it the usual tactical black?

                    Wow, do you prefer to use the iron sights or neon sights then? Personally, a scope is an absolute must for me. The scope is half the fun of shooting in my opinion, my friend.


                    • Chris of E.
                      I have one of the green ones marked on the cylinder as 1300 fps with PBA Platinum. Bought it at a Big 5 a couple of years ago and I think it must have been a discontinued model. The only similar GAMOs I’ve seen lately claim 1200. This one also doesn’t have iron sights but has the fluted barrel shroud so it still carries the scope. Oh, I also upgraded the scope mount to a one piece with five screws – don’t know the brand.
                      I’ve found that I very rarely shoot past 25 yards anymore and the rifles I have that I took the scopes off of seem like new creations – they are lighter and better balanced and much more of a joy to carry around. But, that’s just me.
                      LMo


          • LarryMo,

            Does that locktite gasket dressing stuff tarnish the metal in any way?

            If it’s safe and doesn’t tarnish anything, I’ll try to buy some online, as I don’t think locktite is available in England (I could be wrong, though).


            • Chris, jury is still out on that one. Frankly, I didn’t care that much since I figured I could fall back on steel wool and cold bluing – it was already damaged from the scope stop bolt pushing thru the metal.
              If you search back thru the archives of this blog, I think you will find that BB has covered scope mounting and highly recommended the UTG mounts in one article. Good luck!
              LMo


            • Chris of England,

              I am surprised that you are having all of the slippage with a 12 fpe model. BKL rings are a good choice for slippage. The 1 piece design, (no separate side bar), must actually be spread first to even get them on an 11 mm. rail. You take out one of the 2 clamping screws, put it in on the other side and screw it in. (There is another hole in between the 2 holes on the first side, but is on the other side. It acts as a jack screw) That opens the 11 mm. clamp. Position, remove screw, replace screw to other side, tighten as normal.

              In other words, they have a LOT of clamping pressure built in (before) the screws are even tightened. Of course, always use rings with 2 screws at the base/clamp and 4 screws at the scope clamp.

              Hope some of that helps.


              • Chris USA,

                A one piece won’t work for me, mate, as I ring placement freedom.

                Reason being, of you look at close up pics of the Whisper X IGT, there’s a hard plastic sheath on the butt of the barrel, meaning it decreases the length of eye relief I can achieve as it impedes how far back I can place the a scope ring.

                So, to get the eye relief I need, I have to put a scope ring quite close to the sheath, and then place the scope on it right next to the scopes middle, so it’s almost touching the joints between the scope and the scopes adjustment tubes.

                I do have a nice scope (an Hawke Vantage), but due to how the gun is made I still have to do the above to get nice eye relief.

                If I used a one piece, that just wouldn’t work. I tried it.

                Thank you, though, Chris.


              • PS, Chris USA

                A little further up I state that, in my view, the only solution for the scope creep is to buy really high end rings.

                But, I actually think the real solution is having weaver or picaniny (sic) rails on the gas ram in the first place. Although, the scope may instead take all the shock in that case.

                At the end of the day, though, this scope creep is a well known issue with the Whisper X IGT, so there might not be much I can do about it.

                When I can finally save enough money, I’m going to get a Benjamin NP2 or an Umarex.



                • Chris of England

                  GF1 suggests the HW30s or HW50s for money invested. Get both, the former in .177 and the other in .22. Both have Rekord triggers and easily put 10 shots inside an inch at 25 yards. The latter in .22 can do pesting humanely as well.

                  Decksniper


                  • DeckSniper,

                    There’s two big problems with that suggestion, though, my friend.

                    Firstly, I very strongly dislike wooden air rifles – mainly on an aesthetic level.

                    Secondly, I have to have a gas ram.


                  • DeckSniper,

                    Also, I dislike .177’s. In England, I’m handicapped enough by the restrictions without restricting myself further by using a smaller cal.

                    The famous Rekord trigger does sound like a beautiful trigger, though.

                    Some time ago, I toyed with replacing the SAT plastic trigger on my Whisper IGT with Charlie Da Tunas CR4 trigger or whatever it’s called. Because the stock trigger on the Whisper has a heavy pull, and is not ideal at all. My SAT grey plastic trigger was marketed as being a ‘two-stage trigger with adjustable pull weight’ by Gamo at the time, but it’s not really. I think they intentionally, almost solely make them like that for ‘safety’ reasons etc, or to me more specific: to cover themselves legally.

                    I’ve never had an air rifle with a light, crisp trigger as I just cannot afford high end rifles


        • Chris,

          I see you are wanting better triggers. The trigger on my Maximus was 5-6# and I reduced it to just a little over 1# just by cutting 1 spring and bending another V shaped one. I used some silicone grease on any plastic to plastic spots, White Lithium on any plastic to metal areas and moly paste on any metal to metal. No plastic parts or metal parts were filed or modified in any way, nor would I ever recommend doing so. Washer shims can be used on pivot points to reduce any side to side slop.

          Bottom line is that you can probably make what you have much better. Do some research on You-Tube and other sites and (above all) understand exactly what you are doing. If not, do not.

          Some mechs. are complicated and others are rather simplistic.

          One other point,.. the Maximus being a PCP,.. the trigger is only holding back the hammer spring pressure as opposed to a springer or gas ram, which is holding back A LOT more pressure.


          • Chris USA,

            Thank you for that info, Chris. I did at some point watch a few YouTube vids showing how the Gamo trigger can be improved, but I’m just not at all experienced enough can yet to take my rifle apart. As careful as I am, I’d probably end up breaking it or something; and at worst falling victim to the high pressure within parts of the gun.

            So yeah, I’ll be leaving at as is. I have adjusted it as far as second stage pull length (which was kinda marketed by Gamo as pull weight adjustment), but I won’t be tinkering with it unfortunately.


            • Chris,

              Sounds good. If you consider yourself to be mechanically inclined at all and if you find a broken air gun or one super cheap, have yourself a go at tearing it apart. It will be worth the effort. Most springers (do) require a spring compressor, which there is plenty of info. on that to be found right here. Never get into a PCP with an air charge still on it. Do your homework. That is the 3 big rules.

              Even after all that, it is still a wee tad daunting the first time “going in”. Pretty soon though, it is old hat and what is best of all,… you can often make something better than it was to start with. That is cool and something to take pride in. Plus, you can help out your other air gun “mates”.

              🙂 ,… Chris,.. from across the “Big Pond”.


  13. Mr.Gaylord:
    Thank you for all your reports from SHOT 2018.
    Are there any new products you saw that were marketed to youth shooters, 3P, or 10 meter shooters?
    Again, many thanks for being the eyes for those of us who can’t get to the SHOT show.
    Respectfully,
    Wm. Schooley
    Rifle Coach
    Crew 357
    Chelsea, MI.



  14. BB
    This dog is too old to teach new tricks. No PCPs for me but I’ll definitely keep my eye on that SIG ASP20! That is if it’s not TOO radical. :->
    Luddite in Algona


  15. That is a pretty dinky bolt handle on the Fortitude which detracts from the name. And what in the world is an Akura?

    Michael, how about that with the poor quality of your Walther LGV? The German products are supposed to be expensive and overengineered. Perhaps when everything doesn’t come together at their elite level, it can have lots of problems. It’s almost the complete opposite of Russian guns built for simplicity and reliability. I would guess that the army required parts for its new Sig handguns to be manufactured in America for security reasons so that the guns would not be exposed to attack overseas. But that wouldn’t apply to airgun parts.

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      Obviously (!) I’m really frustrated by my Walther LGV. I bought it new from a reputable, established, online Walther airgun dealer. I was drawn to it because it was supposed to be a smooth, quiet shooter. It’s like an angry bee hive instead.

      Umarex won’t admit there’s a problem, so I cannot get defect warranty protection, and I couldn’t bring myself to sell it to somebody and rip them off (unlike Umarex). I got around to it late enough, and it did not immediately occur to me that it was defective for awhile, so I didn’t feel right asking the dealer for a an exchange by the time I realized the Walther LGV is a piece of junk.

      Walther lets such junk out of its factory it’s a miracle James Bond got through Dr. No alive.

      Michael


    • Matt61
      The Fortitude is regulated. So it works at a lower operating pressure. So a lighter striker/ hammer spring can be used. That equals less stress on the bolt handle.


  16. I like the AirForce compressor particularly the multi voltage. I am not impressed with Crisman’s compressor however. 3 mins to top up a Marauder and must not be used to fill a scuba tank!?
    The Sig ASP is a beauty and easy to appreciate for a springer lover like me. The 8 lb weight is a turn off for me though. BB is always praising the virtues of an easy cocking gas ram. My dream is a rifle made like this Sig but with less weight and power. I think I am in the minority sadly.


    • Ton
      The Crosman pump looks to be comparable to a Shoebox on fill times.

      The Shoebox I had would fill a Benjamin buddy bottle from 2000 psi to 4500 psi in around 50 minutes.


      • Gunfun1,

        Run The Traveler for 50 minutes, and you might have a steaming, smelly pile of Crosman! It isn’t supposed to be run for more than 45 minutes at a time.

        I grew up with a guy who, in his 20s, could run for more than 45 MILES. (Hey, I like that first part, a steaming, smelly pile of — in 7th grade we used to use a paper plate as a cover and leave it to smolder on a mean neighbor’s front stoop.)

        The Traveler does look nice; however, and I’m sure they are pretty effective for PCP filling, especially with car battery capability.

        Michael


  17. GF1,

    I have been careful to follow the talk on the Maximus barrels from Crosman. I think you were correct in thinking it had to do with the machining of the barrel. Based on my Marauder I was sure it had to do with the harmonics and dynamics of the barrel. I thought the length of the Maximus barrel made the difference. Why would it be longer than the Discovery if it was just in the manufacturing process.

    As far as I know the new Marauder barrels are the same dimensions and the same steel. So that should mean they have the same harmonics and dynamics.

    It would be good to compare a few of the new L/W and Crosman barrels. It sounds like the new Crosman barrels can keep up with the L/W barrels. Good for Crosman for offering them though. The L/W barrels I mean. Hard to complain any more on the barrels. I bet the .177 barrels are better also.

    I have been working on a spread sheet instigated by the discussions here on multi-pumps and piston size, stroke and head space verses valve pressure. It seems to point to a narrow band of practical designs for a multi-pump gun. Once I figure out how to tell the story I will give a post on it. It is obvious that a small cylinder zero head space pump is the best for high pressures but I need some data to feed the model. I am going to measure all the bore and stroke on my multi-pumps and develop some graphs on valve pressures. I think we will be surprised by the 13xx pump system. I finished the first round of the spread sheet yesterday but had to work on a new pantry today. The honneydoes are hitting me hard. I am supposed to keep moving, (get off my kiester) and get some real work done.

    Don



      • Michael,

        My Marauder in .22 is not very accurate. GunFun1 has apparently found that to be the case with all the .22s. The .177 and .25 are the accurate ones. I wonder if a replacement .22 barrel can be had with the assurance that it is made with the new process? I’d definitely replace mine if I thought I could.


    • Don
      I think they made the Maximus barrel to up the velocity a little.

      And yes definitely zero head space.

      And ok I’ll have to see what you come up with on your pump volume data when you get it done. Hopefully it will be pretty obvious in the differences.


  18. BB

    Thanks for your efforts and nice reporting.

    Having had a springer that drooped and also lost its solid lock up, I get the idea behind the Sig ASP 20.

    However, my understanding is that there are a number of break barrel springers on the market that have no lock up problems whatsoever, and shoot as accurately as the shooter’s springer skills will permit.

    Likely I am missing something but apart from being a nice concept, I’m not seeing the real value, when a proven gun can be had for similar money. Example: Diana 34. I suppose I am questioning the notion that a decent springer loses accuracy due to insecure lockup.


    • Idaho,

      As to your question,.. I would guess that it is hard to retain accuracy from shot to shot, when the barrel is jumping all about due to a loose lock up. Too loose at the pivot pin/bolt will do the same.

      Any word on the tank yet? I would imagine that you are getting rather tired of looking at your new beauty and not shooting it. I had figured that if you were up and shooting, that we all would have heard about it.


      • Chris ,
        Ok here it is for all the airgun world to see about what I expected, severe denting of the skate wheel. Shooting JSB jumbos 18.13 pellets at 790 ( just an educated guess my Marauder shoots HN Ftt pellets at about 830 fps and a storm was rolling in just as I got home so couldn’t use the Chrony too cloudy) at 25 yards should be right at 20 ftlbs impact according to ChairGun. Twelve shots serious denting and although the spinner still worked.


        • Coduece,

          Nice testing. Fine picture. At least now you know the bearing housings fpe limits and can recommend/caution accordingly, or remedy. From your previous testing, I would say the paddles are very impact worthy. I think that they may even be .22 rim fire worthy at the right range.

          2 things to consider there,..
          1) At what point will the arm bend? Could the big paddle take a hit from a .22 long RF at 10 feet,.. and not bend? My .25 M-rod at 10 feet with 33.95’s?
          2) Will the 2″ paddle ever twist from a hit at the outer edge? Again, at what fpe?

          The point in all of this?
          1) Warranty evaluation if ever needed
          2) Perhaps the (most important), bragging/advertising rights. Compare yours to what other spinners are rated at. Yours can handle more?,.. promote that. Yours spins more?,… promote that. Promote what sets yours apart from the others that are out there. Get a fact based promo sheet together and send some out to the “players” in the market along with a unit. Let them do the sales work, for you.

          As for further bearing protection, other than what I have done,… maybe a cut piece of pipe (a ring) and then cut that in half. Assemble as you do now and then weld/tack the 1/2 rings to the arms. The pipe ring would then take the direct hit.

          I want this to be successful endeavor for you! 🙂 B.B. said that what makes a successful product (or not one) is the marketing. Just tossing you some further food for thought.

          Take care and get some rest,… Chris


          • Chris ,
            The thing to remember is these targets were designed with low powered air guns in mind, a target that will provide action for guns astute shooters use HW 30/50 and other 12 fpe or less guns. That’s my intended niche .25 cal guns at 10 ft can use any conventional spinner target with good results.
            I did mock up a skate wheel with a schedule 40 2” pipe ring welded to it but the extra weight impeded the spin rate. Great minds think alike.
            Carl


            • Coduece,

              🙂 Heck dude,… I just want to see you succeed. I was just thinking of not limiting your product to low power air guns. High power air guns? RF .22? They are substantial enough I think. Of course it takes some data collection and verification.

              At least you have a target “niche” in mind and that is good.



            • Coduece,

              Now that Sir,… sounds like an excellent marketing strategy! Good point. Though it does toss in some other more complicated marketing strategy factors. Just sayin’. 😉

              Work on building a base and a reputation “here” first,.. I would say,… I think? 🙂


        • Coduece,

          Looks like I was wrong.

          I may have been dealing with heavier duty bearings in my work or I could have just underestimated the energy these PCPs produce. I think forming your arms per that sketch I posted will solve you problem, though.



          • Halfstep,
            As far as I know these are the only skate wheels out there I could be wrong as I often am. The guards would be easy to incorporate at an increased price. I’m going to poll my customers and see what they think. However after shooting close to 1500 shot I have never accidentally hit the wheel and I’m no ridge runner as far as my shooting acumen. It’s another piece of metal to buy,cut,punch, deburr, paint and assemble also new box size so one change means 10 in actuality. So I am definitely looking for input.
            Carl


            • Carl,

              Are you using actual wheels from metal roller skates? I thought they were the bearings that are pressed into each end of a pipe to form a roller for a roller conveyor system. Those are available in many different diameters and widths, as well as load bearing capabilities ( which would translate into thicker metal ) . Being an industrial type Lego part, they may even be more economical.


              • Halfstep,
                They are wheels used on gravity type conveyors we call them skate wheels due to the similarities with metal skate wheels. my original design used the press in bearings from conveyor rollers but using the skate wheels was much simpler and cheaper.


                • Coduece,

                  I gotcha. I hope you didn’t think that I was talking down to you or anything like that. This is my first endeavor into ” Internet Friendships” and I’m finding it a little tough, not knowing the background of a fella like you. I want to be helpful where I can but knowing where to keep my mouth shut on a person to person basis is a challenge to me. I might add that keeping my mouth shut is not my “Go To” move in most instances to begin with. 🙂

                  It looks like you have given this plenty of thought and I think I’ll just bow out now.

                  Out of pure curiosity I like to know what sort of price increase the guard you are proposing would require.


              • Halfstep,
                please don’t bow out I totally enjoy bouncing things off other people getting new ideas. And your posts are some of the best. I can see my posts being at times interpreted different than I intended. This too is the only online presence for me. So no worry’s I might getting a little short because of the hours I’m working that hopefully will be ending soon!



            • Carl,

              I have not had the bearing damaged on my spinner even with some folks shooting at them that only hit the spinner less than half the time. I don’t see any need for a guard on them. Later you may want to market an upscale version for .22 LR.

              Being able to put many different size and weight washers is a great feature. A quick shot of spray paint once in a while and some lube in the bearing keeps mine like new.

              Thanks,
              Don


              • Don,
                Thanks for the input I’m leaning towards offering the guards as an option for those who wish to push the limits. I was going to poll purchasers however I’m still on 7 12s and it doesn’t leave any time for airgun stuff. Glad your having fun with them.
                Carl


                • Coduece,

                  I had an idea today. IF you could find PVC or some plastic type of pipe of the right I.D., you could cut a ring say 1″ wide and add a couple of notches about halfway up (to slip over the arms). Press fit would be ideal, with epoxy as another option. Of course it would need to be able to take a hit. Light weight and cheap.



                    • Chris ,
                      I didn’t mean to make Halfstep mad at me I’m pretty bummed about it. I just don’t have much time to think about my posts and at this point my brain is as fatigued as my body.
                      I was just thinking the other day since he lives in ky and you in Ohio maybe we could get together and do some shooting later this year?



                    • Coduece,

                      Take it easy and just muddle through the rest of those 7/12’s. That is tuff. Getting together would be nice, but I travel very little. Work and to help with my elderly parents and local shopping are about it. Heck, I do not even make the Ohio shows, of which there are some nice ones,………. that B.B. even (drives) to,…. from TEXAS!

                      Take it easy and catch you later,….. 😉 Chris


                • Coduece,

                  Like you said, great minds think alike. 😉 “Something” to add a layer at any rate. Be it metal or plastic. A “nice” fit would be optimal to reduce work/cost. A slight tap with a hammer to install would be great.

                  “…..should have just used emt conduit”,… ???,… I was not aware that you had tried a “bearing wrap/ring” yet,… unless I missed it. (( Oh yea,.. “too heavy and slowed spin”,.. now I remember. The 1/2 pipe idea I/you had. )) A plastic ring that is hit resistant would be ideal. It would add (cut, notch, deburr, install) steps though. A plastic that would hold up would at least solve any pellet hit issues. .22 Rimfire would require metal most likely. Then again, metal with rimfire might still work as there is more fpe, so the spin rate/revolution # might still be very nice/acceptable.


      • Chris

        I got word yesterday the tank shipped and should arrive late next week.

        If it were nicer weather I’d be more antsy. I’ve busied myself in the meantime setting up a gun storage/workshop room in my basement so I can be organized.



  19. B.B.,

    Our internet was out all day so I didn’t get to the party until just now.

    The Rule of Competition (Adam Smith’s Second Natural Law of Economics) means having all of those compressors come out this year will pull prices down and make new models’ prices lower. Next year there will be more, better, and even lower-priced compressors, just watch. The high-quality HPA compressor with an MSRP of $499 is only twelve months ahead. In two years decent compressors will be on the market with an MSRP of $399.

    Michael


  20. B.B.,

    That Sig breakbarrel has good looks the straight-back-to-the-shoulder comb and buttstock appeal to me. And with that massive Muzzle brake it wouldn’t dare cock with difficulty! :^) I imagine the big muzzle brake might also keep it settled down more during follow-through. I have really started to prefer muzzle-heavy air rifles.

    Michael






        • RR,

          Lots to like. It does say that it has a fill probe. I am assuming that it can be pre-charged and then topped off every few shots. There is a power adjuster and it sounds to be regulated. From what I re-call, this is exactly what GF1 has been asking for. A multi-pumper that has PCP pressures. Also, this is the only gun of this type that is a new offering this year. Repeater too.

          Yes, I am interested in this one. I wonder what the price point will be?


        • RR and Chris

          Not sure how big that prepper market is but this gun just makes sense to me. PCP functionality with built in pump. Seems like they thought it out quite well with the features Chris noted.

          I hope Tom will do a review to see how it funcitons. The fill probe should make for an easier review 🙂

          GF should be chiming in any time I would think.


          • Idaho,

            Well, there is at least one, the FX Independence. That cost a whole lot more though. From what I have read, this is in the $399.00. range which is a big difference considering that they basically perform the same.

            Nailing down one to test may be an issue though. Check out Siraniko’s links if you have not already done so.


          • Idaho,

            The prepper market is bigger than a lot of people think. Most of them are pretty quiet about it. They actually have a prepper festival out my way every year with vendors and such. A quiet air rifle with enough power to take small game and no need for a bunch of support equipment will likely end up in quite a few of their gun safes.



    • Halfstep,

      Very nice. Much like I had imagined. Very innovative on the use of varied materials. I really like the way the poly board absorbs energy. I would buy several cutting boards just to cut up like you have.

      Very nice. Thank you.


    • Halfstep,

      I do in fact have a question,… which you may have, or have not, previously answered,…. does the (tape) hold up as well with (pellet) hits,.. like it does with bb hits?


      • Chris USA,

        This is for BBs only. I am trying to build a DIY target for action BB guns that will continue to work as the CO2 pressure fades and will not shoot the BBs back at you at pistol shooting distances. Pellets from a CO2 Pistol will damage the paddles at 7-10 yards.

        As for the use of different materials, that is how all prototypes start out, I guess. My goal is to reduce the variety of materials and for them to be cheaper and more readily available to the the average shooter. I would love to create a set of plans and instructions that I could post so everyone could make one.

        I was inspired by a YouTube video where a guy was showing his 5-6 year old kids shooting his creation in the garage with Red Riders. They really were having fun but they had to stand so close and the BBs were flying everywhere. So I thought I’d try to use plastics to make it safer and give more range.

        I obviously took too quick of a look at your link because it is now obvious to me that what you said is true.

        And finally, here is the sketch that I posted for Coduece. It is meant as more of an alternate fabrication ,rather than a retro fit to existing spinners.


        • Halfstep,

          “Dad” does not sound too smart. That is just wrong. “bb’s flying everywhere” does not sound kid friendly or even remotely safe. What an idiot.

          Thanks for the pics. I did miss that. I am not sure where I read it now, but the cost of a product should be 34%, or less, of the final retail price. Heck, it was possibly right here that I read it. How much do you figure your time is worth is probably one of the biggest factors/variables.

          I do see all of Coduece’s concerns and considerations. Hey,… at least he ain’t just talking about it. He be doin’ it. And hey,… he sold at least 2,… mine! 😉


          • Chris USA,

            The Dad did have them both wearing shooting glasses and winter clothing. The reason he was doing it in his garage was because it was too cold outside. I don’t know how hard a Red Rider shoots so I really can’t say if they were in any real danger.

            I don’t plan to make any money off this if I get it perfected. I plan to just show others how to make it because it might bring them into the hobby (airgunning) or just an aspect of it that they may have dismissed (BB guns)




  21. Weekend update:

    Found some of those toy 8-shot cap rings. At a Dollar “something or other store”. 2 cards of 12 rings, 8 shots each. After much pondering,.. I just taped a ring to my cardboard backer. 2″ clear packing tape. Each cap measures .182″ and much tougher to hit than you may think. They do “pop”, but the un-silenced Maximus pretty well cancels that out. They do throw sparks too on occasion.

    Sparks? Cardboard shreds in my pellet traps? Mmmmm?,… I pondered. Perhaps time to clean the pellet traps? 1# of bb’s and 5# of pellet lead from 2 traps.

    Next step with the rings? I think that I will cut them loose and pack them into a water bottle cap, tape over it with duct tape, mount that to a backer/board. Outside I am thinking. Could be a big bang?, or maybe a bit of a chain reaction type of event? Outside I am thinking. Just sayin’. 😉

    Status of the .22 nail gun/stick charges? Med. power on a 5 scale. After much thought,… outside. Second thought is to hold the shell secure and then create a “firing pin” of sorts to impact the shell. Kind of like a big headed nail if you will. Still pondering that one. I did get a nice chunk of hardwood that I will just drill a hole in and leave the rim about 1/4″ above the wood and have a go at that,… but outside,.. as an initial starter.

    That is about it.


    • Chris
      Yep hard to hit is the name of the game.

      And for your rimfire nail cartridges all you need is a hole for the powder to exit into. Then you will not have to work about the cartridge moving. The powder blast will just blow out the hole.

      Basically drill a hole in a piece of wood so the cartridge will fit in it. But not so big that the rim falls into the hole. You can put tape over the back of the cartridge to hold it in place. Something like duct tape cut in a 1″ square placed over the center of the back of the cartridge.

      Let me know what you think.


      • GF1,

        Yep,.. contain it,.. more bang,… vented,.. less bang and (safer). Give that pressure some room to vent.

        Either way, it will be a few more days before outdoors shooting is “in season”. Unless of course you have a,… 😉 like somebody that I know,…..


        • Chris
          More than likely depending on what size drill you use. The cartridge will probably be snug to tight in the wood after the shot goes off. It will probably try to expand in the wood. You might actually have to knock the cartridge out of the hole.

          And you know you can amplify the sound if you want. Make a sheet metal box about a 1-1/2 feet square and put it about a foot behind the cartridge where the explosion exits the cartridge. I think you’ll be surprised.


          • GF1,

            Sounds to me like ol’ GF1 has some experience with “reactive” targets of the “popping” variety?

            I shall proceed with caution and curiosity.

            Commercial opportunities may exist? Do you know of any other commercial targets that utilize nail gun charges for dramatic effect?


  22. I finally have my spreadsheet working that calculates the pressure stored in a valve for each pump in a multi-pump air gun. My first effort is with the Crosman 101 I have been working on. I had to make quite a few assumptions along the way so I will list these first.

    There were no air leaks in the gun and the temperature did not change.
    This is based on the equation where:
    P1*V1 = P2*V2 P = pressure and V = volume

    I did not find any data on the volume of the pressure chamber (valve) for the 101 or any other gun for that matter. So I set it up where the the valve volume is defined as a given length of pump tube.
    1. I used a pump tube diameter of 0.64 inches (measured)
    2. I used a pump stroke of 7.75 inches (measured)
    3. I used a valve of 0.4 inches with the same diameter of the tube (estimated)
    4. Air pressure was 14.7 psi sea level
    5. dead space was set based on a maximum tube pressure with no vavle (dead head the piston)

    I ran three sets of data:
    One with a dead head pressure of 800 psi. It gave a dead air space of 0.046 cubic inches or a pistion to end of tube space of 0.14 inches

    A second one with a dead head pressure of 3,000 psi. It gave a dead air space of 0.012 cubic inches or a pistion to end of tube space of 0.038 inches

    A third one with a dead head pressure of 100,000 psi basically no dead space. It gave a dead air space of 0.0004 cubic inches or a pistion to end of tube space of 0.001 inches

    I would say most guns are in the 1500 to 2500 psi dead head range based on my experiene.

    Below is a graph of the data generated. I truncated the near zero dead space data to keep the chart more readable it is basically linear and keeps going up.

    The local air pressure is an input so this could help figure out how many pumps would be needed at higher elevations to achieve the same valve pressure. Keep in mind that the lighter air at higher elevations affects drag on the pellet also.

    The only data that I don’t have is the volume of the pressure reservoir (valve) it will change the numbers but not the shape of the curves.


    • Benji-Don
      Your remaining me off when I was building race engines.

      Now I want to see what your next chart shows on a gun with a different bore and stroke.

      Side by sides are nice.



    • Don,

      Ok,.. to be honest,.. you “shot” WAY over my head. What I am wondering is how you figured all of this from measurements? The piston diameter and stroke I can understand. Head space I can understand. To me, the only thing you can actually measure regarding air pressure (what is actually occurring) is the muzzle velocity and pellet weight thus giving an FPE. Your findings would lead one to think that you have an air pressure gauge directly reading the stored air pressure in the valve. 100,000 valve pressure?

      Unless,.. you have taken the traditional (fps, pellet weight and fpe) and have extrapolated from that?

      Either way,.. you are my “go to” guy on number crunching from here on out! 🙂


      • Chris U,

        These are using a theoretical equation the real numbers will be different and even if you can get the head space near zero the pump would not be strong enough to allow that kind of pressure. I thought I could estimate the maximum pressure from the pump better than the volume of the head space. So I calculated the head space from the pressure if the pump cylinder was a closed system. I used the 100,000 psi to show what would happen if you could build a zero head space system.

        The 3,000 psi head space is close to the normal multi-pump working under ideal conditions. The 800 psi what you get with an old worn out gun or one not adjusted well the reduce head space. You can pump it as much as you want and it will only pump up so far.

        I will be back later.

        Don


  23. Chris U

    If i could explain this better it would be easy for you. It is very simple.
    See the figure below it will help. This is all based on the pressure times the volume in the first condition is equal to the pressure times the volume in the second condition in a closed system.

    ——-For the first pump:
    I solve for the valve pressure. The full volume of the pump stroke goes to fill the valve.
    So valve pressure P2 = P1 x V1 / V2

    Where:
    P1 = atmospheric pressure
    V1 = pump volume plus dead space volume plus valve volume
    V2 = dead space plus valve volume

    ——-After the first pump then the pump does not add any air to the valve until the pressure in the pump and dead space and valve are all equal. So net pump volume is when the pressure equals the previous valve pressure.
    So now V2 = P1 x V1 / P2

    Where:
    P1 = atmospheric pressure
    V1 = pump volume plus dead space
    P2 = previous valve pressure

    As the valve pressure increases the net volume keeps decreasing

    ——-For the second pump:
    Only the net pump volume goes to fill the valve.
    So the pressure in the valve on the second pump P2 = P1 x V1 / V2

    Were:
    P1 = the previous valve pressure
    V1 = net pump volume plus dead space volume plus valve volume
    V2 = dead space plus valve volume

    After that it just keeps repeating with calculating the new net pump volume and then the next valve pressure.

    I hope I got this correct if not let me know or of you have any questions. The real world calculations would be much more complicated but should give similar results. At some point I want to include the pump effort in the calculations. And real world valve volumes are needed. I hope someone can provide some.

    Don


    • Don,

      Thank you for taking the time to further explain your calculations. The illustrations are very nice as well. You have shown that minimal head space is certainly the best scenario. As for valve volume, I suppose that would be fairly easy to figure out if you had one apart on the bench. Keep us posted as you progress.

      That Nova multi-pump looks interesting. There is a case of a PCP that can hold a high charge, yet the pump mech. is still capable of topping of the valve and tank. I did read where it is 3 stage.

      If correct, the HA link that Siraniko provided was from March 2017. I was unable to find a current U.S. distributer (there was one sub linked, but could find no air guns listed), and did not look very hard beyond that. It would be interesting to know if it is still around, offered local or if it is just an overseas offering at this point.


      • Chris U,

        Yes the lower the dead space volume the more efficient the pump. Although if I am giving the gun to a youngster I see where a little more head space will protect the gun from over pumping.

        I will be interested in the Nova but it looks like a beast. The Dragonfly is more my type. I also will be interested in the Fortitude if it is as good as it sounds, I will be getting one sooner than later.

        Don


        • Don,

          The Fortitude will be VERY hard to resist. Now that I have a regulated Maximus, the only thing I am lacking is the repeater feature,.. which I love. In a way,.. I wish I would have waited on the Maximus,… but at the same time I would recommend it to anyone and everyone. Things are changing so fast in the PCP realm that there is no doubt that there will be “buyer’s regret” as something new comes along,.. (just as soon as you buy the next best-est thing being offered). 🙁 Hey,… you got to “jump in” at some time,.. ehh? Such is life.


          • B.B.,

            Hey,.. that might be a fun topic to “play with”,… (Such Is Life). You get the latest and greatest thing,.. and just as soon as you do,… something even more awesome comes along. Buyers regret.

            Just an idea,… but it might be a fun “off” topic. Hey,… you do have to admit that things are getting a bit tuff to keep up on,.. ehh? 😉

            Chris




              • Chris
                The Nova is exactly what I’m not looking for.

                I do not want a multi-pump pcp.

                I want a multi-pump with a shroud. I want it to have the option of a single shot tray or magazine.

                And I will stress this point. I want it to get only one shot for how many pumps I put in the gun. Absalutly no topping off like a PCP.

                I want an old fashion pump gun that can be pumped up to control velocity.

                So no the Nova is nothing like I’m talking about.


        • Benji-Don
          So what exactly are you trying to show?

          Looks to me like head space verses how hard to pump.

          Now throw in different bores and stroke with the same head space.

          That’s what we was talking about in the beginning. What would give more volume of pressure per pump and how hard it will be with different size pump mechanisms.


          • GF1,

            I was trying to show how my calculations were set up. The first graph earlier was with the Crosman 101 bore and stroke with different head space.

            I planned on showing different guns bore and stroke today but the winter garden and a family get together took priority. The spread sheet is set up to compare just what you are asking I will get to it soon.

            Don


          • GF1,

            Ok I set up three multi-pump sizes a small two-stroke, a medium four-stroke and a full blown big block. I am also going to give the ending pressure if the valve is pumped to the max 2000 psi and dumped into a sealed barrel. One barrel is a .22 caliber and the other is a .177 caliber ok just for you there is another barrel in .25 caliber. All the barrels are 20 inches long. I set the valves on all three to have a volume equal to .4 inches of tube (bore).

            Bore Stroke Valve Volume .177 .22 .25 Force on Piston
            inches inches cu. in. Barrel Pressure psi Pounds

            .5 5 0.0072 275 187 148 393

            .75 7.5 0.0243 528 377 305 883

            1.0 10 0.0677 779 585 485 1570

            Now you can start to see the trade offs between many of these variables. If I kept the same valve volume for each test you could also see how many more pumps would be needed to get the same pressure but we already know that the larger pump will take less pumps, but how many and can you pump it. At some point we can check that out too.

            I think this shows some of the trade offs pretty well between how many pumps and how hard you want each pump to be. I don’t know if you are familiar with spread sheets but I can send you a copy if you would like to play with it.

            Don


            • Don
              Yes mixing up the bore and stroke even differently than your combination of bore and strokes.

              It’s about balance. In other words the right bore and stroke to give the maximum psi per pump with tolerable pump resistance.


              • The table below is easier to read. I received a box of parts for my Crosman 101 Saturday so it will be going through some changes. The barrel band/pivot bracket looks like the wrong on to match the height of my breech block. There were two heights. It looks almost new so I will keep it and the barrel will float from the breech block forward. I also now have three different pump heads to try thought the one I am using is working good.

                Don



          • GF1,

            Sorry I forgot to use some characters to space the table. This should be easier to read.

            ..Bore….Stroke…Valve Volume…177……22……25..Force on Piston
            inches….inches……cu. in………..Barrel Pressure psi……..Pounds

            0.5………5………….0.0072………. 275…….187……148………393

            0.75……7.5………..0.0243………….528……377…..305……….883

            1.0……..10…………0.0677………….779……585…..485………1570


  24. Gunfun1,

    It would be nice if there was an easy way to attach even a two stage pump to make that dream MSP. Those pumps exist for bicycle suspension adjustment.

    Siraniko


    • Siraniko
      Yes that would be nice for people that want that type of multi-pump.

      I don’t. I want the repeater and single shot option. And I want the quietness of the shroud.

      And most importantly the option to pump one or eight times to control velocity. I’m talking pesting where noise and velocity control is important.

      Not interested in have stored power per pumps.

      Like u said I want a old fashioned multi-pump with added modern features of a shroud and repeating magazine or a single shot tray option too.


      • Gunfun1,

        I get what you mean. I was just thinking that a two stage pump would decrease the amount of pumps required to bring a pellet up to the desired speed. A single stroke equals two strokes from a normal pump in an ideal setting. That would mean for indoor pesting you may only need one or two strokes. For outdoor use up to five strokes.

        Siraniko



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