by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Benjamin Maximus.
This report covers:
- Pump incompatibility
- Maximus barrel
- Sight-in
- The test
- Baracuda Match 4.53mm head
- Falcon pellets
- Premier 7.9-grain pellets
- Premier Copper Magnum pellets
- What have we learned?
Today’s test has a lot of surprises. It should be good.
Some reports are more important than others and this one ranks near the top. Dozens of readers are waiting to hear about the accuracy. Today I shoot the rifle indoors at 25 yards.
Pump incompatibility
You may remember that I reported that my Air Venturi G6 hand pump is incompatible with the Benjamin Maximus rifle. I used the Benjamin hand pump instead, and it worked fine. I did some checking with both Pyramyd AIR and Crosman and learned that both of them were aware of some problems. Pyramyd air has made some changes to their male Foster fill nipples, and Crosman just ordered a G6 pump so they can examine it. I think it’s helpful for all of us to know that these companies are working behind the scenes to make their products as universal as possible. That was the first surprise.
Maximus barrel
The second surprise came from Crosman. They told me that they are very proud of the barrel they’re putting on the Maximus. It has some proprietary technology they will not reveal and they claim it makes the barrel very accurate. I guess today’s test will show that, so let’s get started.
Sight-in
I mounted a UTG Accushot 3-9X32 scope on BKL 301MB mounts. These mounts are perfect for this rifle because they elevate the scope above the rear sight. Also, the double straps on each of the 2-piece mounts are individual, which means you don’t have to worry about the pattern of tightening the cap screws. There can be no uneven flex, though each cap screw should be tightened to the same tension. On a PCP like the Maximus, the torque needed is very low. The scope I used is older than the one I linked to, but has the same set of features.
I was not concerned today with hitting what I aim at. I’m just looking for some accurate pellets to take to the 50-yard range. So the concern today is group size. Two shots at 12 feet told me the scope would be on paper at 25 yards. A third and fourth shot at 25 yards allowed me to refine the sight picture, and I was ready to start the test.
The test
I’m shooting the Maximus rested at 25 yards. I will shoot 15 shots per fill and each group will be 5 shots. I’m just looking to evaluate pellets — not to determine the ultimate accuracy of this rifle — yet! But something happened today that has not happened to me in several years, and should illustrate why today’s test makes a lot of sense.
Baracuda Match 4.53mm head
The Baracuda Match with the 4.53mm head was the most accurate pellet at 10 meters, so I sighted-in with them and shot them first. The first group of 5 went into 0.323-inches at 25 yards. That’s a pretty good start! It’s also the smallest group of the day.
Five Baracuda Match pellets with 4.53mm heads went into 0.323-inches at 25 yards.
I was so impressed with the first group that I shot a second group with the same pellets. These made a 0.395-inch group. That’s larger, but not by much.
A second group of 5 Baracuda Match pellets with 4.53mm heads went into 0.395-inches at 25 yards. This is a consistent pellet in the rifle.
Falcon pellets
Next up were the Falcon pellets that also did well at 10 meters. Get ready for surprise number 3. At 25 yards Falcons blew up! Five of them grouped 0.992-inches between centers! I have seen this before, but it has been a couple of years since I last saw it. A pellet that does well at 10 meters, yet does poorly at greater distances is not common but does happen. This is why we test at distance.
Five Falcon pellets went into 0.922-inches at 25 yards. This pellet will not be tried at 50 yards!
Premier 7.9-grain pellets
The next pellets I tried were the 7.9-grain Crosman Premiers. At 25 yards 5 Premier lite pellets went into 0.353-inches. That was the second best group of the test. This pellet will definitely go to 50 yards!
Five Premier lite pellets went into 0.353-inches at 25 yards. This is the second-smallest group of the test!
Premier Copper Magnum pellets
The last pellet I tried was the 10.6-grain Premier Copper Magnum. Not only am I testing the new Maximus rifle, I’m also testing this pellet for the first time. Crosman advertises it as 20 percent more accurate than the Premier 7.9-grain pellet at 50 yards, which is where we are going next. I will be shooting 10-shot groups at 50 yards, to remove all doubt. What I get from 10 shots is a result with a very high level of confidence.
At 25 yards, 5 Copper Magnums went into 0.405-inches between centers. That’s only slightly bigger than the group made by the Premier lites. Maybe at 50 yards the results will turn around. We will see.
Five Premier Copper Magnum pellets went into 0.405-inches at 25 yards.
What have we learned?
I can’t swear all Maximus rifles will be as accurate as the one I’m testing, but Crosman thought enough of their new barrel to tell me about it. At this point in the testing I am declaring this rifle to be a best buy. Even if it can’t shoot well at 50 yards, it would still be a best buy. For the money you can’t buy another reliable precharged air rifle that’s this accurate. And the Maximus has a classic stock that feels great in the hands.
We have also learned that 10 meters is not the best distance at which to test accuracy. I haven’t seen an outcome as dramatic as the Falcon pellets for a long time, but it illustrates why we test at longer distances.
Finally, I want to impress all you readers who are sitting on the PCP fence that I’m shooting with a maximum fill of 2000 psi. That is so low that using a hand pump is a cinch for most adults.
And finally, I am shooting this well with an eye that had a detached retina that was surgically reattached. The reticle lines still look squiggly to me. I’m a 68 years old and have astigmatism, cataracts and a repaired retina. Imagine what someone with younger eyes might do! If you are waiting to pull the trigger on PCPs, I think the Maximus might be perfect for you.
From the man that says we underestimate the pull he has at Crosman..
Both Pyramid and Crosman are jumping to make the equipment compatible…
(I know, it’s in their best interest for all three companies to be compatible)
On a different note, does anyone know the internal volume of the air tank of the Airforce Edge?
Air force’s catalogue shows the volume of all their other guns, but not the Edge.
I have googled until I am crosseyed. And no luck.
Thanks.
45Bravo,
LOL! I have owned an Edge for several years now and have no real idea. Of course, I have never really been concerned with such either. What I can tell you is the reservoir tube is 1.25″ OD and nine inches long. If you allow for the front and rear sections taking up internal volume, call it eight inches. It is not going to be very much. I have been thinking of having a 12 inch reservoir tube made.
Lloyd calculated that the regulated chamber volume was about 0.5cc at 1000 PSI. He made me a bolt on 10cc chamber that took my Edge up to 12 FPE. It did reduce my regulated shot count from over 100 down to about 25 though.
A friend of mine and I were discussing the edge, and the topic of volume came up.
It is at the opposite end of the spectrum of the Airforce line in regards to air usage.
A hot shooting Talon or Condor gets about 20-40 shots off a 490cc bottle,
yet a FX wildcat gets over 100 shots from the same size bottle.
And the edge squeezes 100+ shots from about 100cc’s.
We weren’t looking to make it more powerful, just discussing efficiency of the Airforce line.
I love my Talon, and am looking to pick up a used edge in the near future.
45Bravo,
The Edge is an awesome air rifle and I would recommend it to anyone as long as they are not hung up on power. It is the perfect backyard plinker. You can fill this thing up with a hand pump in minutes and shoot until you are tired of shooting.
If you get one, let me know and I will pass on some tuning tips and mods to you. By the way, these mods can be removed and restore it to original. 😉
45Bravo,
The Edge tank is in the neighborhood of 100cc or perhaps a little large, I believe. I will ask them for you.
And I did not say that you UNDERestimate the pull I have at Crosman. I said you OVERestimate my influence.
B.B.
Thanks, I was just giving you a hard time.
It is good to see them taking an interest in making the possible components compatible.
I had a difficult time getting my FX pump to lock on to my Chinese B50, when I got the rifle.
I took some 800 grit sand paper and hit the foster fitting with it just a little, it was enough to allow the pump connection to lock.
Apparently it was just a smidgen oversized.
45Bravo,
Many airgun manufactures make their own fittings — at least the males that are simple. And the specs are very loose, so they can make them too large or too long in spots and that messes up the fit.
Commercial fittings are better, but they also cost more and if a company has their own machining centers why would they pay for it?
The females are more complex assemblies, and nobody tries to make them.
B.B.
45Bravo,
I was right. The Edge tank is 100cc.
B.B.
Thank you for that information.
Just for giggles, I ran the numbers on filling an edge from my 90cu inch bottle.
Over 19 times. (3000 down to 1800)
Filling the edge from a guppy tank is on par with filling a Talon from a tigershark tank.
45Bravo,
You can actually get away with that with the Edge. If you fill it to 1800 PSI you will get somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 shots.
BB–I thought that by this time that I would have been deluged with offers to buy my unique(?) dwarf pellet. Alas , I have nor received any offers. Then I remembered the corn flake ,(or was it a piece of toast or pizza) that had a religious image on it and sold for an enormous price. I decided to examine my dwarf pellet with my dissecting microscope in the hope of discovering a portrait of some famous person. Shure enough, as I slowly increased the power, a n image began to appear. Was it Washington, Lincoln, Gandi,or Elvis? No, it was my long departed uncle Fetta ! Only it was a poor likeness. However, he did have a moustache similar to the one you found on your famous dime. Although it appears to be less than worthless, I am stuck with it because of it,s sentimental familly value. Ed
Ed
Sorry. I think it’s one of them infamous events in history that will never be recognized.
You just have to display that pellet proudly. Heck I would wrap it in a piece of paper towel and carry it always in my pocket. Then when the right time happens you always have it ready to be shown to that next air gunner you run across at wally world. Could you imagine how excited they would be. You can even tell them that it would shoot at 1800 fps out of the springer over on the shelf. Heck it would have to go faster since it’s lighter and smaller. Right? But then reality would set in. Not a many of those pellets are produced. Their actually kind of special pellets you could tell that wally world shopper. Tell them if they find one they better hang on to it. Cause it’s special very special. Man now I wish I would of kept those two I found in the past. Woe is me. Will I ever get one again. 😉
Ed,
If I were to guess, your pellet is part of a “top secret” project that made it’s way out of some clandestine ballistics testing laboratory. Think of the fps that could be achieved,…. think of how many more could be packed into a magazine,…. While it is only a scantly heard rumor,… I have heard that the powers that be are exploring the concept of shooting a bunch of little holes in something,… rather than one big one.
I would not be surprised that if a big black SUV, blacked out windows,… came pulling up any minute now. Out comes 3, armed to the teeth, men, also in all black. None of them speak. Then, one of them reaches into his suit pocket,… unfolds a piece of paper,…. and there it is,…. a picture of your micro pellet! The only words he says is,…. “Where is it?”
Keep it handy and be prepared to just hand it over. 😉
Ed,
The name for a small pellet like your is a peewee. They aren’t common, but they do crop up.
Look for the one that has Mount Rushmore on the inside of the skirt. That’s the one that brings the real money on Ebay. 😉
NB.B.
Mr. BB & Chris, you 2 are wearing your tin foil hats without the chin strap again, aren’t ya? On the other hand, all this manly man talk about examining our peepees has got me all fired up. Gonna go drink a 6 pack, get a tattoo, buy a Harley t-shirt & watch some Home Improvement re-runs. Shoot/ride safe.
Beaz
Beaz,
It’s been a long time since I laughed out loud. Edith used to fall on the floor from some of your comments.
Thanks for the memories,
B.B.
Yup, then right after I made ’em snort milk, I’d be right back at the kiddy table again. I miss her too, sir. She got me. Shoot/ride safe, my friend.
Beaz
Beazer,
Well,… that explains it! The on-line source mentioned nothing of chin straps! I even got the “deluxe” model with the L.E.D. flashing lights,.. and everything. I do like your idea of spending the afternoon though! 😉
ChrisU, Mine has a face guard & I got the combo pack that comes with the M.I.B. flashy thingy. Figured it’d come in handy on some of my dates. Shoot/ride safe.
Beaz
Beaz,
I forget whether mine has a flashy thingy or not.
B.B.
B.B.,
“Flashed” yourself,.. didn’t ya? …”forgot”… That is what they are for ya’ know. 😉
ChrisU,
A good buddy of mine is a part time Super Hero when he’s not delivering pizza. His name is Captain Obvious. Friends call him OB one. He’s looking for a side kick, yes, that would be OB two. I’ll send him your contact info. Geez, feel like I’m playin’ “Whack-A-Mole” today. Sorry. too many great straight lines to let ’em go to waste.
Shoot/ride safe & always wear your helmet, can’t get hurt with a helmet on!?!
Beaz
Beaz,
I know when I am beat. You are not one to mess with when it comes to the one liners!
🙂 Chris
Never flashed myself, and in 30 years of caring a weapon, I never shot myself.
But I did go to stick a stun gun in a pocket and shocked myself in the arse.
OUCH!
Mr. BB,
NICE shot, you sly devil. Shoot/ride safe.
Beaz
I’m getting very sleepy.. I mean your getting very sleepy and when I count to 3 you will wake up and have no recollection of the conversation we just had. 1…2…3
Sorry Beez just had to. It’s been a long day and it’s past my bedtime. 😉
Hi BB,
Any chance for an equivalent report on the Maximus .22 ?? or both on co2 ??
Are you still shooting with your left eye?
To GF1, RR, Chris et al
How difficult would it be for Crosman to mate the pump mechanism of the Sheridan to the breech and barrel of the Maximus? That might minimize development costs.
Any word on Reb? He’s been quiet for two weeks.
Siraniko
Haven’t looked at that. But it wouldn’t take Crosman much to build a modern pumper.
I wish Crosman would read the blog and listen to the requests people have made for them to build a new pumper. Or new old pumper I should say. They have things in house that are already made that could be adapted very easily to come up with a pumper that resembles a Discovery or even the well optioned Marauder rifle.
Maybe we should all decide to put some more bugs in Crosman’s ear and flood them with some emails and calls. That usually wakes them up when they get multiple people contacting them.
We are all asking them to make something we want so we can spend our money on the product we request. That’s pretty bad if they don’t recognize that. And I’m a number one Crosman fan. But I sure wish the heck they would listen to people that shoot air guns. The heck with the China air guns. Make us a home made USA pumper again. That we want. Something quality. Something that shoots good and is powerful if need be. Something that will make a name for itself as time passes. Something that stands out that the other air gun makers don’t have. Crosman has the right ingredients. They just need to learn how to cook again is the way I see it. And you know people like good cook’n.
GF1,
Look at my response to Siraniko. You yourself took it from based on the Discovery to the Marauder in one sentence. That is what killed the Katana.
They could not build a quality pumper based on the Discovery for less than the Maximus and it would be considerably heavier and bulkier. Just fill it up and leave the pump at home.
GF1,
Another thought. I would just as soon see Crosman make a top shelf sproinger worth owning rather than bring out a new pumper.
Siraniko,
I myself have thought the same concerning a new pumper. A well made pumper based on the Discovery / Katana / Maximus air rifles would be something I would be quite willing to add to my meager collection, most especially if it was offered in .22. The short barrels of the Benjamin / Sheridan pumpers make for them to be very handy, but also greatly inhibit the power.
There is a major problem though should Crosman consider going down that road. As soon as they bring out something like that, the power and multi shot nuts will be screaming for a version made from a Marauder and the next thing you know you have reinvented the FX Independence. If my feeble memory also serves me correct, Daystate also used to have a very nice pumper.
The problem is they start getting pretty heavy, most especially if we the consumers are expecting to be able to pump them up to 2000-3000 PSI. Even if we remain realistic and are happy with a single shot multi pump, it is still going to have a bit of heft to it. Personally I would have no problem with that, but there would still be a bunch of whiny weenies.
Probably the major obstacle to Crosman developing such is whether the marketeers have looked into their crystal balls and determined whether they could sell enough to make it worthwhile. Crosman took the Discovery and developed the Katana, which turned into a flop because of the Marauder.
Like I said, I would seriously consider buying one, but are there enough people like us who would do such to make it worth their while to do the research and development and then commit the resources to set up a production line to manufacture this rifle? I think not. With the modern hand pumps that are available at such reasonable prices, why mount the pump on the rifle when you can fill it and get 15-20 shots between pumpings. One pump up is good for a day of squirrel hunting.
RR
I agree with your point about what the market will support and make a reasonable return on investment possible. I think Crosman has done a good job supplying the general public and bringing out some very interesting guns for the enthusiasts.
Fido3030
Fido,
I have to disagree. They have done a great job of supplying the big box stores, but since the introduction of the Discovery and the Marauder, they have not succeeded in manufacturing anything that the serious airgun community is interested in. I have been going to the GTA Fun Shoot for a couple of years now and the only Crosmans that I see there are Discoverys and Marauders, and those are usually modified. I see mostly European air rifles and these are very rarely modified.
I understand their business model. It has nothing to do with airguns. It is build at the least expense and sell large volumes.
RR
I’ll just answer here.
Time changes things as everybody knows.
I still say a modern pumper based on the Marauder rifle would sale.
And look at all the cheapy springers Crosman makes already. If anything that’s the last thing Crosman needs to do is make another springer.
I’m going to keep rooting for Crosman to build a multi pump based on a Marauder rifle. I believe me and other people are seeing something that you and few people are not seeing.
I will end with this. I don’t work for Crosman. But boy oh boy if I did. Gaurentee you by the time I was done they would be building a Marauder based multi-pump. I’m pretty good at getting stuff like that done.
LOL! I bet you would. While you are at it, have them build a deluxe version of the Marauder with an attractive walnut stock and nicely finished metal. Something that will not only shoot with the European PCPs, but look nice while it is doing it.
And I still want them to build a decent sproinger that I would not mind owning. Once again I would want something that would shoot with a TX, LGU, etc. and look good while doing it.
The only Crosman I have ever owned was a cheap CO2 action pistol I bought at Wally World and I don’t have it anymore.
Siraniko,
No, I’m shooting today with my right eye. That’s what the last paragraph of the report is about.
I haven’t heard from Reb in a long time and he has not reserved a table at the Texas Airgun Show, so I don’t know what is going on.
The cost of changing the Benjamin 392 (the Sheridan is no longer being made) would be huge. The machinery that makes the rifle is very large and fine-tuned for the barrel that’s being used.
B.B.
Man in Black: You are amazing.
Inigo Montoya: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Man in Black: Oh, there’s something I ought to tell you.
Inigo Montoya: Tell me.
Man in Black: I’m not left-handed either.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and regains his advantage]
Just throwing ideas at the wall and hoping something sticks.
BB
Would it be possible to send Reb a card from all of us that we’re thinking of him and miss his posts? His computer may have down or something or he might be sick.
Fido3030
Fido3030,
I don’t have his mailing address.
B.B.
Thanks.
Fido3030
That would be great! I’ve been thinking about him and sending up a prayer for him every once in awhile.
Well that was alot of interesting info.
I hope they get the Foster fittings figured out. I can say that I have and haven’t had that problem in a sense. I don’t have a Air Venturi pump. But I have used the Air Venturi male and female Foster fittings with no problems. Have used the female quick disconnect Air Venturi Foster female fitting on many Crosman and Benjamin pcp’s.
They do need some extra pressure sometimes to connect. I found it to be the o-ring inside the female quick disconnect to be a little thicker in size than what’s in say the Benjamin carbon fiber 90cu.in. buddy bottle Foster female fitting or the Benjamin hand pump Foster female fitting. I’m going to say it’s o-ring thickness. The outside diameter of the o-ring is ok. It’s the inside diameter of the o-ring being to small.
Maybe a dimension in the female Foster fitting is wrong. But the o-ring does help fix the problem. From what I have seen anyway.
And yep on the Falcons not shooting as accurate out at longer distances in a particular gun. But can’t blame but the Falcon’s. They are good pellets. But for some reason the Maximus barrel don’t agree with them.
And just got to say. When I was hand pumping my Discovery back when I did the dark side thing. And I’m going out on a limb here. Back before pcp’s were nick named the dark side. And before I got my Shoebox compressor. But the Discovery’s are very easy to hand pump to 2000 psi. That was even with a Benjamin hand pump. Then I ended up getting a Hill pump. But I have to say. The Shoebox came after I got my first gen1 Marauder and first non spin lock tank Talon SS.
Let me just say that 3000 psi and the bigger air resivoir on the Talon SS and Marauder changed my mind on hand pumping. And I hand pumped my .25 Mrod that is seeing 3500 psi just a while back when the power went out. Couldn’t use the Shoebox with no electricity. Not no fun. I start feeling 3000psi when I hand pump; 3500psi hand pumping will make you know your doing it. Very hard to push down at the end of the pump stroke.
So what I’m saying is when you get those pcp guns like the Maximus and the Discovery that use the lower 2000 psi fill and has the smaller volume air resivoir. You will appreciate it if you ever try to hand pump the bigger volume air resivoir guns that fill to a higher psi. Heck I even don’t mind hand pumping the Benjamin Marauder pistol or the Crosman 1720T to 3000 psi. Why the smaller volume air resivoir. Just throwing out some different things to think about if you are considering slipping over to the dark side.
BB,
Could the issue with the Falcons be the pressure level at which they were shot? You stated that you were shooting 15 shots per fill, 5 shot groups. The first 5 shots per fill were tight (Baracudas and Premiers), the next 5 opened up a little (Baracudas and Copper) and the last 5 (the Falcons) were worst.
The Baracudas are probably an excellent choice for this rifle, but maybe the Falcons should get a chance at a fresh fill? Just so you know, my experience with Falcons is that they have not been the best in anything I have tried them in.
RR,
If that is the case, then the Falcons are still out of the running. They were shots 15-20. Would you really use them? I wouldn’t.
B.B.
BB,
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was suggesting that perhaps you should try the Falcons after you refilled the reservoir so they would be at the top of the power curve.
RR,
I knew what you meant. I meant that if the Falcon is so twitchy that it needs a narrow pressure band then it’s too twitchy for me in this rifle.
B.B.
BB,
I’m with you now.
Very nice testing. Way to go on getting a bit of an inside scoop on the barrel too. Interesting. I will be looking forwards to the 50 yard testing. I find myself asking,…. “Where is the circular magazine?”. Sorry, the M-rod has me spoiled rotten. Then again, that would render the open sights useless. Still, if this turns out to be a scope worthy 50 yard shooter, then maybe,… just maybe. 😉
BB,
I know this is a bit off subject, well way off subject. Maybe you can talk PA into sending you a Gamo Hornet Maxxim in .22 to review.
/product/gamo-hornet-maxxim-igt-cat-air-rifle?m=3998
I have been interested in picking up a nice gas sproinger and have been wondering if the new CAT trigger from Gamo is any good. Yeah, I am certain the scope is not even worth mounting, but if the trigger is a true improvement over their SAT trigger, they may be headed in the right direction.
BB glad to see you can see that testing a rifle for accuracy at 10 meters really shows nothing but it is good for a pistol. my cheap Chinese underlever can shoot into ragged hole at 10 meters. 25 yds to me is the minimum for a rifle 40-50 yds really shows what it can do
I see part of the problem of “they ought to make this” in these responses.
They are all over the place.
Everyone wants something different.
Tom takes the time to review new and old guns for us, and we as a group pick him apart with
“if the would make it in .22 I would buy it.”
Or if they would make it get more fps.
Or if they would put a magazine on it.
Or if they would just upgrade the trigger.
Or if they would just drop the fiber optic sights.
The list goes on.
We are a fickle bunch, and our wants change like the wind.
10 people here say they would buy something if “they” would just make it, but when the gun hits the street, only 2 do actually buy it.
At the shot show the airgun whirlwind was all about the big bores.
Most manufacturers brought one to market, in varying price ranges, from sub $1000 guns to over $2000 guns.
Single shots, repeaters, short ones, and long ones, new cutting edge designs, and classic rolling block designs.
And yet, a few short months later, only a few are still being talked about.
Of those, I wonder how many are actually still selling well.
The Texan is still going strong it seems, the Bulldog seems to have slowed down some, the 4500 psi cartridge guns have become next to extinct.
The lack of states that allow big game hunting with airguns is hindering the sales to a certain extent, but the “more power” guys still will buy them.
The same with the Air bow, very few states allow you to hunt deer with it, but it’s a neat platform.
All if these took massive amounts of money to bring to market, they need to sell thousands of them to break even.
It boils down to they could ask 100 of us what they should make, and they would get 97 different answers.
45Bravo,
Congratulations, Grasshopper! You have just self-actualized. This is the highest plane of existence a human (airgunner) can attain. You are now qualified to make your own pneumatic saber and defend the realm.
Just don’t write an airgun blog! 😉
B.B.
Thank you, I learned from the best.
I might try to help out here, but I would never compete with you.(except on the range)
That non competing clause you had me sign gets in the way too. 😉
45Bravo,
Yes, but remember, that non-compete gives you unlimited public compliments! 😉
B.B.
45Bravo,
I agree with your thoughts.
Maybe the Crosman Custom Shop is their way of testing the waters before going into production. If enough 1300KT Pump Carbines are sold that should tell them that there is a market out here that they can invest in.
45Bravo,
Well stated and spot on,.. and,… guilty as charged,… even today. On the flip side, it does let the air gun manufacturers know what people are thinking. But, like you said, after all the debating has been done and a course has been set, that gun had better sell. I stand reminded. Most of us could use that now and again. 😉
Thanks, Chris
45Bravo
Read my response to RidgeRunner above.
Time changes everything.
So because one person says what they like or don’t like about something another person can’t? Sorry but that world left me along time ago. I go for things that are out of the box.
But back when I was into dragracing the muscle cars and the later model cars I contacted car makers and aftermarket people and gave them info on what people were asking for. And things did start showing up.
So why is it a bad thing to ask for something to give a person more choices of what they want.
As you can aee. The way I think is I’m always excited for new things to be introduced. Matter of fact I have went ahead many times and done things that people say would never work. But when they did they were sure all over me wanting to know all about it.
Like I said to RidgeRunner. If I worked at Crosman. Which I don’t. But by time I was done they would be building a Marauder based multi-pump. I’m just like that. I’m pretty good at getting something to happen. And I bet there would be more people than you think would be interested.
I agree with you, if I worked there, I would get with the R&D guy, and do some tinkering, and machining..
In the end, there would be a proof of concept model of an American built,
Marauder based, 1/2 the price of an Fx independence.
Built with as many off the shelf components as possible.
Tom said at one point he had mentioned this idea to Dennis Quackenbush.
Dennis has the skill, and the shop to make a proof of concept.
His shop is large enough to produce them if it can be done.
And small enough to do it on a budget, and without too much lawyer interference.
As to not reinvent the wheel so to speak, I can see him making 1 or 2, wring them out to get the bugs out.
Then sell a replacement lower tube and pump assembly and stock for you to bolt your marauder parts to.
That way, the cost is kept to a minimum as you are just buying the center “heart” of the gun, and you provide the rest.
But still offer a fully built, ready to go rifle.
Just my thoughts..
45Bravo
If Dennis made a lower like you mentioned I would be all over it.
I wonder how hard it would be for Crosman to convert the front of a blank Marauder tube over to accept a pump and arm. I bet not hard at all. Especially a one off for right now to prototype it. The pump piston and arm would be the only thing needing made to fit the Marauder tube. And some modifications on the valve. Pretty much it to make it happen.
Well the only thing now is time. We’ll just have to wait and see. That’s the problem with being on this end of the Totem pole. Speak and see how far up it makes it.
While it’s not much money in the grand scheme, I have a .177 gen 2 Mrod I would donate to the cause to reduce Dennis’s initial investment in testing.
And just to get to the head of the line for one of the first few to come out.
45Bravo
Talk to BB about it.
In a sense that’s how I got with Lloyd Sikes to have him make the first prototype double air resivoir for the Marauder rifle. He already was making them for the Discovery.
Anyway long story short I had the first double tube Marauder in my hands before he even released them to the public.
But I have a feeling they might just take you up on that offer for you to let them use your Marauder for a prototype pumper.
That would be very cool if it happened.
GF1,
I have forwarded the offer to Dennis.
B.B.
Cool, thanks, it’s been sitting in the safe since I finished my Talon.
I had been considering selling it, but it just shot too well.
I gladly offer it as a test bed.
And I understand, that if it isn’t feasible, I fully expect to have to replace the main tube at my own expense.
(But I would like Dennis to install the tube. )
It’s stock other than tuning the settings.
It’s currently set for 70 shots at ~875fps with 7.9 Benjamin domes.
With a 2800fill, down to 1200..
So it’s a pretty efficient setup
My .22 was setup for 40 shots at about the same fps but with 14.3’s and only a 2000 psi fill, and down to 1000psi
But one of my friends wanted to get into pcp’s sith a hand pump, so he got the .22.
45Bravo
Did you see the reply BB just left to me.
He said he forwarded the offer to Dennis. That’s good news I would say.
You might be less one Marauder for a while. But you would have one of a kind. For now anyway.
45Bravo
And on your last comment about 100 people and 97 different answers.
Here’s a little secret. Get 97 people out of a 100 that do want the same thing and then have them bug the manufacturer.
I have seen it work.
GF1,
But,.. as 45Bravo said,… would those 97 (actually) buy it,… or just the 3? Only one of those two scenarios is going to work for the manufacturer. You have good points too though.
Chris USA
Read my reply at the very bottom.
The way I see it if we don’t say what we want from something then we are wrong.
Read the bottom.
BB
Hats off to Crosman for putting out an affordable, very accurate PCP that is the perfect entry to the world of PCPs. This rifle appeals to me much more than the Discovery did. Wonder what the secret barrel technology is.
By the way, great shooting BB.
Gerry
A comment about the Benjamin Hand Pump: I have one that was shipped with my Discovery. Since then, I added a BSA R10 to the collection, and sometimes I fill it using the Benjamin Hand Pump. Last week, however, the pump failed on me. I could not raise the handle no matter how much effort I put on it.
I researched the internet, since I live overseas and cannot simply send the pump back to an overhaul at the factory or anything like. I found lots of information and complaints of the very same problem from different users, all related to a seal (o-ring) that seems to fail after a certain amount of time.
I purchased the said o-ring at a local hardware store, disassembled the pump and replaced the damaged part. The pump worked fine for a short period, failing again after just two pumping sessions. I replaced the o-ring again. I was very disappointed.
Is this pump somehow limited to low pressure guns, like the Discovery or Maximus? Everyone I ask tells me to “get a Hill pump”, or get a cylinder instead…
Fred_BR,
Hello to Brazil! 🙂
The Benjamin pump is rated to a working pressure of 3000 psi. It’s possible the o-ring you used to replace the faulty one was not rated to the same pressure. It has to do with the material the ring is made of and the Durometer (hardness) of the o-ring compound.
Maybe you could find an o-ring of the right size with a higher pressure and heat rating?
B.B.
B.B.
If someone were to buy maximus with Benjamin pump what is a good assumption for life expectancy? I know the hill pump is one of the best but I’m wondering how hard the 2000psi will be on the benji pump? If you know offhand or have done a report I have missed please let me know.
Punchin Holes,
The pump I am using is one I bought from Mac, who bought it when it was first offered in 2007. That’s 9 years. The key to keeping these pumps working a long time is keeping them clean. I have an Axsor pump that lasted 11 years before someone bled it on dirty ground. That killed it instantly.
B.B.
My “supplier” could not give me any figures on that, but in line with what you are saying, I just pumped my BSA to 3000 psi, like I regularly do, and it seems to be working. But I will try to find new o-rings rated for higher pressures just to keep things going…
By the way, Tom, I am totally aware of the fact that you do not recommend opening and servicing a hand pump by oneself, but I went ahead for lack of a better option. But I am a Mechanical Engineer so you can give me some credit for it, right?
Fred,
This pump is the exception! It is built to be repaired by the user and Sun Optics handles the repair parts. Maybe they could sell you a kit?
The Benjamin and AirForce pumps are pretty much the same inside, so the parts ought to work.
B.B.
And I should mention this about the Maximus.
I believe the Maximus would of been built sooner or later. But I do believe the blog BB did about the $100 pcp influenced the making of the Maximus. BB linked the blog to the $100 pcp in part 1.
And I do remember all kind of conversations that came up about what the gun should have and shouldn’t have. Like some people wanted a shroud for back yard friendly shooting and other people said they didn’t because where they lived where the shroud was illegal. And many other things popped up that people talked about.
What I can say right now pretty comfortably is Crosman did hear some kind of way that people did want something. And if it wasn’t talked about like we did with or wants and not wants maybe the Maximus wouldn’t of been built.
And obviously Crosman chose the things they did with the Maximus for a reason. But it’s here now. And I have to say it again. What would be next to come now. Maybe Marauder based multi-pump or even a Discovery /1377 based wood stock multi-pump.
The way I see it if people don’t make it known what they want from something than their just going to have to live with whatever they dangle in front of us.
People have the chance to say what they want. If they don’t. Well then be satisfied with what the manufacturers give you. I say it’s better to state what you want than to sit back and wait sort of thing.
Then let’s see what they build next.
GF1,
Yes, it should be consumer driven. Take the fashion industry,…. they (tell) people what is cool, in, out, hot, last season, out of style, etc. The opposite. And man do they have suckers lining up year after year.
In the end though, the manufacturer is going to have to take all the “ideas”,…. and “blend” them into something that hopefully most of us consumers are willing to buy.
I think that they did a good job with this one,…. very good in fact. And the barrel,… that is new. That has me more intrigued than anything I think. I would like to know some more on that. Someone will figure it out after some very close examination.
Chris USA
I’m interested on more about the Maximus barrel as well. If it’s as accurate as the Discovery’s barrel then that’s a good thing. And if it’s more accurate then better yet.
I have used the Discovery barrels and breeches on several of my 1377/22 and 2240 rifle conversions and they are very accurate even out at 50 yards.
So you don’t think I won’t be trying a Maximus barrel on one? I actually have a spare 1322 with a 1399 stock on it sitting and waiting for a steel breech and a long barrel. So a Maximus barrel will get tryed sooner or later.
GF1,
Dude,…. I do not put anything past you when it comes to trying something!!! 😉
We think alike in that regards. You are just a bit further down the road on all of that though.
Chris USA
That’s why I’m pushing the fact that people do need to make known what they want in a product.
It’s better than the manufacturer starting out a project with a blank piece of paper. They all have their ideas what (They) think we want and them ideas get wrote down on the paper.
I want them to start their project with a paper that has our ideas being wrote down about what we would like. Us people that will shoot the gun everyday and live with what it is.
Which way do you think would be a better real world end result?
GF1,
Has anyone ever called you a persistent little cuss? 🙂 We should just do it ourselves and be done with all this quibbling.
I picked up a Mega on the trip this morning,…. if I hit,…. it is ON! (yea, right)
Now, who will be the CEO? What would the company name be? Something cool and really “bad” sounding,…. Viper Gun Works?, Skull Air?, Venom Air Masters?
🙂 ,… Chris
Chris USA
Oh you can’t imagine what I have been called at work in some of our do this or don’t do that meetings. Hey I have made things happen at work that they are glad after it was done that I did say what I said.
And yep I play mega twice a week.
Oh and you just can’t imagine what I’m going to build if I win that money. First on the list is a semi-auto pellet shooting pcp. And others as well.
Chris,
You need to register Venom Air Masters before someone beats you to it. That’s a good one.
Jim
Should read trademark.
Jim
GF1,
The Maximus or something like it might have been built. But because Crosman did it and they have: 1. Experience building the Discovery, and 2. The perfect platform on which to build the rifle — they were the best (only?) ones to do it right.
How many Chinese PCPs do you see using 2000 psi? The other makers haven’t progressed to Crosman’s level yet. But Crosman has to keep running hard, so that when the other catch up, Crosman will still be in the lead.
B.B.
BB
Exactly. Now put them words to a Marauder based multi-pump or a1322/77 Discovery converted multi-pump.
Let them run hard and produce a multi pump that nobody else has.
B.B.
Thanks for the reply above. That and your blessing of best buy for this rifle have been duly noted. And I saw a comment about an entry for field target which removes the last doubts. I was vocal yesterday and now have received some enlightenment on the subject it seems. 🙂
So what’s next for Crosman? After seeing this report Im a total believer that Crosman is invested fully in pcps. It looks like the mrod, Challenger, 1720t, prod and disco/maxi have the crew pretty rounded out. Maybe another try at the big bore? I’m hoping for another model geared for field target…
B.B.
Now I have three PCP rifle options to consider for my first PCP purchase: the Maximus, the Marauder, and the Air Arms T200 Sporter. By the way, did you ever review the Air Arms T200 Sporter?
Charles,
I don’t think I did. I did look at one T200 something-or-other years ago, but I forget what it was. Not very interesting to me.
I think Crosman has decided to put all their eggs in the PCP basket. I think they think the only ones wanting a nice multi pump are us older guys who remember them as a magnum airguns of our childhood. Sure we might buy a 397 or 392 of nostalgia, not remembering how hard they are to pump and scope and what hard triggers they
have. Crosman can still make a great pumper using the price they have on hand: steel breech, Discovery barrel, Gen 1 Marauder trigger. All they have to do is come up with the stock and I don’t think that would be hard using Benjamin 300 series stock. Make a few for the Custom Shop and see how they sell. I would buy one!
With the number of people that I see on different forms saying they would get a PCP if it wasn’t for all the parephenalia you have to carry around, I think the portability would appeal across generations.
Don’t mind me if I keep repeating this. As a former special education teacher, I’m used to saying things over and over again until people get it 🙂
Brent,
I wrestled with all of that myself. I went the Shoebox and small tank route. For me, it was worth it. I wanted power and a smooth shooter. I fill to 3500 and it is like 50′ to the house to fill the gun. That gives me a brief break. I can shoot 4 fills, 96 pellets, in .25 caliber, at 800-900 fps before the tank needs topped off. That takes a half hour.
For me, it was getting over the cost end of it as I was sure hand pumping was not going to be for me. No regrets.
I think this and a hand pump are a really good start for someone. You can not argue with the smoothness of a pneumatic.
Chris,
I just want my pump in the gun, not on the ground 🙂
B.B.
So now that you have a first impression of the shot accuracy of the Maximus, would you classify the Maximus as candidate for an entry-level field target rifle?
Charles,
Absolutely.
B.B.
BB,
Good testing so far, very interesting about the barrel technology. Then again, it has me gnashing my teeth after trying to convert my Mrod to shoot well as a .22, and playing barrel roulette with the parts dept. at Crosman. Gave that up and bought an FX Wildcat in .22, and am quite satisfied with it. Now they come out with a loss-leader PCP that is more accurate than their top model the Marauder?!! Sheesh.
Now, IF Crosman has a new barrel technology, AND they can transfer that tech to their other product lines (Mrod, Prod, etc.) I might be willing to bite. Better, if somebody tells me the new Maximus barrel is available as a spare part and that it can be adapted to fit the Mrod? Hmm, maybe I need to research it.
Sounds like the same problem I have where I work, i.e. design the new stuff that works well, and then struggle to convince the management to abandon/scrap all the old product inventory that is now obsolete. “The customer can’t tell the difference”, and “we have to recoup our money invested”, etc. etc. Sigh.
BenT,
“IF Crosman has a new barrel technology, AND they can transfer that tech to their other product lines” …
If Crosman ISN’T doing exactly that, they are going out of business! Any company smart enough to make a Maximus is smart enough to know the score.
B.B.
Agree, BB.
FWIW, I couldn’t find a parts list published for the Maximus, not that it would really define the configuration well enough to know if it can be fit, or modified to fit, the Mrod breech. And I’m not sure I want to go back to fiddling with the Marauder now that I have a gun that does what my FX does (shoots straight, reliably), unless I know for certain that I’m getting a “new technology” barrel and not more of the same crappy .22 barrels that Crosman seems to have a few warehouses full of.
As it stands, the Maximus is a nice enough package for what it is, a starter PCP. At the price, and with a cheap aftermarket muffler, it might someday be worth a look.
Impressive. The choked Marauder barrel has been a worldbeater, so if this is an improvement, that is really something. Maybe there will be a pcp in my life after all, especially since the hand pumping is easy.
Gunfun1, thanks for your videos on the laser. Is that really a laser and not a green dot sight? It is amazingly powerful. I couldn’t get the green laser on my pistol to appear on a 7 yard target. Anyway, the point I remember about our discussion was one I quoted from an ex-Delta Force trooper. He claims that when zeroing a laser with a rifle, you want your laser to have the same elevation as your sight but be offset two inches to whatever side the laser is attached on, relative to the scope. (For this reason, he recommends mounting the laser to the side rather than underneath the barrel.) The reason is to make the laser parallel to your scope. Non-parallel lines, by definition, converge at one point. This will be your zero, but at every other distance, your laser and reticle should diverge, just as your scope and point of impact diverge. By making the laser and scope parallel, they will preserve the same relationship to each other at all distances. The trade-off is that your laser and reticle will never coincide, but at least they will maintain the same relationship.
With respect to your videos, there is no argument that the laser and scope will both change their relationship to the point of impact at different distances, which indeed they do. The claim is that if the laser and scope are zeroed to coincide as you did for 50 yards, then they should change their vertical and horizontal relationship with each other at any other distance. I can’t tell with any precision whether they do. The relationships seem to change a little at different distances but not much and not with any pattern that I can see. This too is not a surprise since the lateral distance between the laser and scope is much smaller than the bullet drop at the distances you were shooting. But maybe if there is no perceptible difference over this range then this principle is not that significant. At least if you’re not a Delta Force trooper.
Thanks, Mike. I understood that the rear-locking lugs were the weakening factor for the cock on close action, but I thought that they were required by this kind of action. If not, then why not have the best of both worlds? I have heard that the P17 action is “brutally strong.”
ChrisUSA, the resistance to a firearm bolt comes from cocking a hammer. The resistance is so strong for the Lee-Enfield that I at first I thought my rifle was broken. There is no comparable operation with an airgun bolt that I know of but maybe whatever work it is doing produces resistance that is roughly comparable.
Matt61
Matt61,
I will let a firearms expert, and hopefully an M-rod owner, weigh in on that. What I can say is that the bolt,.. pulls back a hammer, (maybe more appropriately called a weight), that will now be under spring tension and now held by the “sear”?. There is no hammer in the traditional sense, or firing pin,.. but rather a weight that is driven forward under spring pressure that will strike a valve stem, thus releasing the air. I would try it with my Lyman trigger gauge, but I think that the pull weight would exceed it’s capacity. (In fact, I just tried it as the gauge will do 12#. It maxed the gauge.) The bolt did not budge. It does have a 12# spring in it, but the stock one I would imagine is around 10#. At any rate, maybe someone else will weigh in on the topic.
Matt61,
Just re-read that. You (are) a firearms expert, at least in my book. Your knowledge on such a wide range of topics is dumbfounding to the rest of us mere mortals! 🙂
Matt61
It is truly a laser. It’s a NC Star that I got from Pyramyd AIR I bet At least 7 years ago. And it is powerful. I have purchased another one a little while back from a firearm shop by my old house. Same exact part number looks exactly the same but it’s like a toy laser compared to the one that’s in the video. The one in the video will show a solid green beam easy 500 yards at night time.
And the first video that shows the laser on the 30 and 50 yard targets is in direct sunlight light. The second video is out at a 100 yards and with shade from the sun starting to go down. With my naked eye I can see the dot out to 70 yards in the sun light. But to see it out past 70 yards in the daytime it needs to be shaded or a overcast day to see it. The darker it gets the longer the distance it can be seen.
And in at 60 yards and under I can place the laser dot on a target that’s 2″ in diameter and hit it with no problem. After 60 yards I need to start putting hold over in. So then the laser gets tricky on the small 2″ targets. But put a 2 litre soda bottle out past 60 yards and I can hit it with just using the laser.
Just wish I could find another one that good.
Matt61
And you made me think of something. You asked if it really was a laser and not a green dot sight. Did yo not see the link I posted of the Talon SS with the laser on it yesterday also? Here is the link I posted of the Talon SS. Oh and notice where I have the bi-pod legs mounted at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoiWxDWyYFY
And yes the bi-pod is very stable when the gun is shouldered on the shooting table. In the laser video’s I actually have the butt stock about a foot in front of me so I can see the phone screen. So the gun is actually teetering on the bi-pod legs. The butt of the gun is off the table about 6″ or so. So I have to wrest my arms on the table to try to keep the gun steady when im videoing.
When shooting with the gun held as normal it is very steady with the bi-pod legs up high and the weight of the gun down low. Got my .25 Marauder that way too. Plus it works out to keep more weight towards the muzzle of the gun for barrel lift when the gun is fired.
Figured I would bring that up. I thought it was odd you asked after I thought about it more also.
Matt61– I don’t know what you mean by brutally strong. I wish that I had a copy of Ackleys destruction tests for reference.. As I remember, the 1917 had about the same strength as the 1903 . They both have a coned breech ( also the Win. 54 and 70).. That means that the cartridge head protrudes @.040 (from the chamber) more than the Mauser 98. The web of the cartridge case is thus exposed, without any support from the chamber or bolt. Thus the strength of the action is determined by the brass cartridge case, and not the steel of the action. Ackley tested a late war Arisaka, 99, with a full case of 2400 powder and several bullets seated ahead of the cartridge. He had re barreled , or re chambered the rifle to 30-06. The barrel was blown out of the receiver ! After fitting a new extractor, Ackley claimed that he could screw in another barrel and continue shooting this rifle. Now that ( and the 6.5 re chambered to 3006) fit my definition of brutally strong. Ed
Watch this video on a type 99 torture test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGwQwXKMuNQ
Bravo 45 Bravo! Thanks for posting this interesting test. Ed
what would it take to detune this rifle to 600fps and what do think the shot count would be at that velocity?
Paw,
Any combination os a lighter striker, weaker striker spring, weaker valve return spring, smaller valve opening, valve seat angle and different reservoir pressure could do it.
The optimum might be 100 shots per fill, but that would take a lot of experimentation.
B.B.
Do you prefer this rifle in .177 or .22? How does either compare to a .22 Benjamin Trail np2? I shoot at paper and plinking.
Johncpen,
I like .22 and there is no way to compare the rifles. They are completely different. You need to try them to understand.
B.B.