The Diana 27: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Diana 27
My .22 caliber Diana 27 is actually a Hy Score 807.

Part 1

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • RWS Superpoint
  • RWS Superdomes
  • Crosman Premier
  • Am I satisfied?
  • Cocking effort
  • Trigger pull
  • The ball bearing trigger
  • How to adjust the ball bearing trigger
  • Summary

Today we look at the velocity of my vintage Hy Score 807 breakbarrel air rifle that you now know is a Diana 27. Besides that I will test the trigger pull, the cocking effort and I will tell you how to adjust the ball bearing trigger. That, alone, is worth what you paid for this entire blog, so settle in and let’s have some fun!

RWS Superpoint

The first pellet I tested was my go-to pellet for a .22 caliber Diana 27 and many other old air rifles — the RWS Superpoint. I believe that Superpoints have such thin skirts that they seal the bore better in these lower powered spring rifles. I told you about the lithium grease “tune” I did about 20 years ago. It’s still performing well after all this time, and I never oil the leather piston seal. As I recall, the Superpoint averaged around 475 f.p.s. in the past. Today 10 pellets averaged 468 f.p.s. The spread went from a low of 458 to a high of 474 f.p.s., which is 16 f.p.s. So, the rifle is still pretty much where it has always been. At the average velocity this pellet generated 7.05 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

I noticed that Superpoints fit the breech poorly because of their wide skirts. The bottom of the skirt hung outside the barrel because of Diana’s slanted breech, and of course that part of the skirt was bent when the barrel was closed. I deep-seated one pellet with a ballpoint pen so it was all the way inside the breech and lost 80 f.p.s. (383 f.p.s.). So that was out.

RWS Superdomes

I haven’t really shot RWS Superdomes in my Diana 27 in the past. That’s because their skirts are much thicker (in .22 caliber) than Superpoint skirts. But Superdomes have proven to be so accurate in other vintage air rifles that I felt I had to try them today.

Ten Superdomes averaged 469 f.p.s. in the model 27. The spread went from 463 to 474 f.p.s., so a spread of just 11 f.p.s. At the average velocity this 14.5-grain pellet (same weight as the Superpoint) generated 7.08 foot pounds at the muzzle. That is so close to what the Superpoint did, though the Superdomes had the smaller spread. And they fit the breech a little better.

Crosman Premier

The .22 caliber Crosman Premier weighs the close to what the two RWS pellets weigh — 14.3-grains compared to 14.5 grains for the RWS pellets — but it’s made from lead that’s been hardened with antimony. The performance will be different for that reason, alone. These averaged 442 f.p.s. in the 27. The spread went from a low of 429 to a high of 472. That high shot was anomalous, however, because the next-fastest shot went out at 449 f.p.s. So the overall spread was a large 42 f.p.s. At the average velocity Premiers generated 6.2 foot pounds at the muzzle. This pellet fit the breech the best of all, though its head did seem to fit a little tighter.

Am I satisfied?

Actually I’m very pleased by the performance of my model 27. It has held up well over two decades from a simple lube tune. But I have a thought. I would be curious to see if I can clean out the lithium grease and perhaps replace it with Almagard 3752 to speed things up a bit. If that happens it will be because less grease will have to be used to keep the powerplant quiet. I might even buy a new mainspring, though this one seems to be okay.

I need to think this through. It wouldn’t stop this series, because I can still shoot the rifle for accuracy with open sights as it is now. And don’t even bother asking — there ain’t never gonna be no scope on this one! Those are just a few of my thoughts.

Cleaning the gun would give us a chance to see what 20-year-old grease looks like. I’m betting the Almagard grease will speed things up a little because I won’t need nearly as much to quiet the rifle. This would also give me the opportunity to take more pictures of the ball bearing trigger that I always need to explain it to shooters.

Cocking effort

The rifle cocks with 17 lbs. of effort, as measured on my bathroom scale. That puts it solidly into the youth rifle category, though the rifle’s dimensions are right for adults.

Trigger pull

The trigger on this air rifle breaks in an interesting way. The very long first stage takes 1 lb. 15 oz. to arrive at stage 2. Stage 2 then breaks cleanly at 2 lbs. 14 oz. I guess it is the positive-ness of the stage 2 stop that I like so much. Once you are there, you can feel no resistance from the trigger. So, the trigger breaks with what feels like a 15 ounce pull.

The ball bearing trigger

I showed you the parts of this trigger in Part 1, so go back and look if you don’t remember. How it works is the three ball bearings press into a groove at the base of the piston rod when the gun is cocked. The balls are situated on top of an inner sheet metal cage and inside another outer cage. When the outer cage is able to move as the trigger gets out of its way, a spring pushes it away from holding the balls in the groove and the piston is released. It is an ingenious design that allows sheet metal parts to function just like solid steel parts that have been machined.

How to adjust the ball bearing trigger

This is where I earn my pay. For years I struggled trying to adjust several Diana 27 and 35 ball bearing triggers. Then someone gave me an owner’s manual and I learned the secret.

Diana trigger screws
The front screw (on the left — closest to the muzzle) is a locking screw. The rear screw does all the adjustment.

Here are simple instructions for adjusting the vintage Diana 25/27/35/50 ball bearing triggers that have two screws. The front screw is just a lock screw. Loosen it, and then screw the rear screw in as far as it will go (that’s clockwise). Then, turn it back out two full turns and try cocking the rifle. Be careful not to let go of the barrel, because some guns may be adjusted to the razor’s edge this way. If yours is and you need a little more sear engagement, try turning the screw in or out just a quarter turn until the sear holds well. Next, tighten the front screw, and the job is done. You’ll have a long first stage followed by a definite stop and crisp stage-two break when the gun fires. You only have to experience one of these triggers adjusted correctly to know how nice they all are.

What can’t be controlled is the length of the first stage. It has to be long, if you want that crisp second-stage release. I don’t mind that one bit, though it is different than the trigger on any other airgun I can think of.

Summary

So far, so good. Everything is on track and the rifle is performing as expected. I am interested to hear your thoughts on whether I should relubricate my rifle. I’m sure most will want me to. In the past I avoided taking Dianas with ball bearing triggers apart, because there are so many parts in that trigger they can be difficult to assemble again. The trick is to use sticky grease in the trigger to hold the parts in place until they are inside the spring tube again. Once inside, the spring tube holds everything together. Almagard 3752 grease is so tacky that I know the rifle will be easy to assemble this time, so no worries.

154 thoughts on “The Diana 27: Part 2


    • To back up what BB said, I have a good friend who did the “full Monty” tune on a model 27. I’m talkin’ aftermarket spring, buttoned piston, custom synthetic piston seal, professionally Sunnen-honed cylinder, top drawer lubes, the works. When he got done, it shot…exactly the same velocity as before he started, LOL!

      It might have been more by accident than design, but Diana seemed to have hit on a particularly efficient power plant diameter and strike in that little rifle, and the high-quality leather piston seal and spring just get smoother and better over the years with the minimum of maintenance. The 27 I’ve had the longest has never been opened up, and truly feels like a tuned gun. It shoots the same velocity today as when I bought it in the 1990’s.



      • MDriskill-

        I was just trying to encourage B.B. to open it up…I want to see how he deals with the T01 trigger.
        20 years of dried Lube can not be good. If the Alaguard grease is as thick as I think it is, it will probable slow the gun down even further. My Diana/RWS 6G sat for 25 years unloved. The second pellet through it after all that time, blew out the piston seal(yes I know modern synthetics is not a leather seal).
        The purpose of the blog is to educate his readers. Just looking at his Diana 27 does not tell me much…
        Thanks for your comments though…Do you still have all your wonderful HW55’s?

        -Y



        • Yogi, ha I understand! Nothing is ever wrong with opening an old gun up for maintenance and updating, but my point was the 27 just isn’t one of those guns that lends itself to miraculous power upgrades (which is what my disappointed friend was after).

          And yes, I am still awash in HW 55’s, my personal favorite air rifle ever. I recently acquired a left-handed HW 55 CM stock–the first one I’ve ever seen–to go with an “naked” action I’ve got.



  1. B.B.,

    Even if you take it apart, clean it and replace the old lithium grease with Almagard 3752 I don’t think it’s going to get any much faster. It will probably perform the same. I’m on the thought that in the 20 years since you last lubed with lithium grease most of it has been ejected and you will only find a thin smear within. If you decide to change the spring this would probably make it harder to cock and potentially make it vibrate even more. If you do take it apart it will be too scratch an itch as to what has been happening inside since you last lubed it.

    I would appreciate though more pictures to illustrate the three ball bearing trigger.

    Siraniko


  2. I’m looking forward to this! I have a Gecado 27 and a Scottish Milbro/Diana 27 (without a rear sight :[ ), both in .22. Haven’t opened or adjusted either, but they both cock and shoot smoothly. I understand your sentiments about the gun, and also your comment that .177 version is not so smooth. I have one of those too and it makes a loud crunching noise at the bottom of the cocking stroke. Wondering why it does that…

    Please can you also give tips on breech seal replacement, because I have leather punches but an too afraid to use them!!


    • Chuckglider,

      The beauty of leather is its pliability. If it is close to the size needed to fit the groove where the breech seal goes, it fits in. You may have to trim some off after you replace it to get the breech to close, but the gun will do the rest. It will pound the seal down until the fit is perfect.

      B.B.





          • Michael,

            Geco was a German import/export firm. Like Sears was here. Gecado was their name for firearms and airguns. Like Ted Williams for Sears airguns. The model number stayed the same because everyone knew who the real makers were. Not like Hy Score and Beeman here in the States.

            B.B.


          • Hi Michael
            Back end of tube top says GECADO in a lozenge with ‘Mod.27’ under it. MADE IN GERMANY in tiny lettering on the side. Does that mean it’s a 1940s rifle – as E. Germany was created in 1949? The trigger is solid, dark grey, gooved presumably alloy as a magnet doesn’t stick to it.
            I’ve tried posting a BB-style photo of the label.



              • Chuckglider,

                In my opinion you need not apologize at ALL!

                My wife is both a retired pro photog and web designer, and she can never stop explaining to me the different and many ways that they combine to make things maddeningly difficult for her when she looks at practically anything.

                IMO you did a much more than serviceable job at a difficult objective. Furthermore, I regularly show B.B.’s (Tom’s ) work to her as an example of someone doing it “right,” and every single time she has had positive comments. I have taken it not only as an affirmation of his work (and she has had multiple gallery shows of her work), but of my own feeble ability of recognizing well done photography for an online medium. Tom and I both suffer from red-green color blindness. (My wife might argue that she suffers from color-exemplary vision!) B.B./Tom does an awful lot better than would I.

                But the primary point I wish to make is that every contribution you make here is both respected and welcomed. I, for one, found it helpful, and I have added it to my archive of Diana images (with your ID attached).

                Michael



          • Other names under which the model 27 appeared:

            Diana 27 (main brand used by the Mayer & Grammelspacher factory of course)
            Original 27 (in UK-controlled markets while Milbro owned the “Diana” tradmark)
            Gecado 27
            Geco 27 (these trademarks were both owned my M&G and used in various export markets)
            Beeman’s Original 27 (early Beeman imports)
            Beeman model 100 (later Beeman imports)
            Hy-Score 807 (US imports by Hy-Score)
            Winchester 427 (US imports by Winchester)
            RWS 27 (US imports by Dynami Nobel)

            And probably more that I’ve forgotten or haven’t heard about yet, LOL1


        • On later versions of the 27, the leather breech seal was replaced by a simple rubber O-ring, and those will also work as replacements in the older ones. You might need to shim a bit underneath it though; in those days the Diana factory used thin metal shims to adjust fits, here and other spots on their guns.


  3. BB,

    Cleaning the gun and showing what the wear is in 20 years time is interesting. Also an explanation of the ball bearing trigger will be much appreciated by me. I still have to do a Walther 55 trigger which looks pretty daunting to me in exploded drawing.

    Changing the mainspring I would only do when the condition of the spring is bad. I last changed a spring on an old (around 1962) HW 50 and the gun really shoots holes now, but is harder to cock and tends to slap me in the face. Not altogether a good experience. Accuracy is still good though.
    When I wrote this I got it out of the closet a tried it again. It has calmed down a bit in the three months the new spring is in it and it is now less irritating to shoot but still I prefer a less lively spring with a more quit behaviour.

    Regards,

    August


  4. BB,

    What?! No scope?! Actually, I understand. I would not put a scope on one of my old gals either, although if I was to pick up another BSA at a good price I might consider mounting an antique style scope on it.

    Are you sure you do not want to get rid of this old girl? 😉




        • GF1,

          There are those you hot rod and then there are those you enjoy for what they are. I have an Edge that is shooting at 12 FPE with a trigger that is to die for. That is with modifications that I can undo and have it “stock” in less than one hour. I am going to tinker with it a bit more and see if I can get around 16 FPE out of it without doing any unreversable modifications.

          My BSA on the other hand I would not dream of buggering it for more power. What would be the use? I can kill feral soda cans with it at 50 yards. If I need more than that I can pull out the .357 HM1000X.



            • GF1,

              Exactly. Years ago I owned a Mustang. When I wrecked it, I bought a 1950 Buick Super. For a while Kathy and I owned a Camaro. Now we drive a Subaru. My Harley rarely gets above the speed limit. I’ll get there when I get there.


              • RR
                And I’m also referring to drag racing in relation to air guns.

                Some times you have to take power out of the car to actually hook the tires up to track.

                As the saying goes. What good is excess power if you can’t use it.


        • GF1,

          The comment had nothing to do with hot rodding or modding. Rather,.. R.R.’s quite clever ploy by creating the now infamous, “Ridge Runner’s Home For Wayward Air Guns”. His latest orphan was a nice one. I love it when he pulls out that card and lays it on the table. It makes me smile every time. 🙂


          • Chris,

            I find more and more that these are the air rifles I shoot. My wife even likes them being displayed on the walls of the great room in our log home. The BSA has the place of honor over the fireplace and the Militia is over the kitchen entry. I even have Wilkins pellet pouches filled with pellets hanging with each.

            Now that it is finally starting to cool off, I hope to be able to find tinker time for my Edge, Talon SS and Tomahawk, but more and more I find that RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns is turning into a retirement home.


          • Chris
            True. And I knew RR also was talking about his nice shooting BSA.

            So my comment to you was I know you like turning up the power on your guns.

            I haven’t seen you try slowing any down yet. Other than your Tx when you first got it.

            But on the other hand the guns you have came from the factory more towards the medium powered guns.

            One of these days you try you HW30s or something on those lines and see what that gun feels like. I think it would surprise you.


  5. That trigger guard is one of the sexiest pieces of stamped steel I’ve ever seen on an air gun!!! And I like how the trigger is set back farther than a Rekord trigger. I was looking at putting in a trigger stop in my Hw 50 per gf1 but the screw is gonna be so long I’m not sure how it will look or work.



      • Man that screw location just doesn’t seem right but I got some faith in you so I’m gonna look at it closer. My 50 is awesome I need to spend more time with it for sure I’ve been pretty involved with spinner target development the last two weeks. These targets are working great, long range spinners that spin like crazy offering a 2 inch target face to shoot at. Gonna get beyond prototype next week.


        • Coduece
          How much first stage pull do you have adjusted in your trigger?

          If less move the location forward. Back if you have a longer first stage.

          And honestly you might not need a stop on your gun. I can back off my pull as the shots beaking and get results. Hats something you will exsperiance if you shoot a lot. Key words. Shoot a lot.

          And cool on your 50.

          And need some pictures of your spinners. Please.




              • Gunfun1,

                You know I am always with you, but a “tweak” on the almighty Rekord?

                What “Mo Jo” is there here? I am no machinist, so wherever you lead, I am only an observer, but . . . still. You are an advanced master in things metal to me, but I confess to being mystified. Not skeptical, “Master GF1,” but mystified,nonetheless.

                Michael


                • Michael
                  The other day Chris and Coduece was talking about trigger stops. Chris was telling Coduece about how he did his. I got talking to Chris back when he got his Tx and LGU. So he did the trigger stop to his two guns. I don’t know if he did his Marauder.

                  So that’s why I answered Coduece above when he mentioned the trigger stop and posted the picture.

                  Michael all the trigger stop does is gives you adjustment so as you pull the trigger back to stage two and the trigger stops moving before the shot breaks. It allows you to adjust so the trigger stops any additional movement after the shot goes off.

                  It gives you a more precise feel is the best I can say.


    • Coduece,

      I went directly from the rear on my stops. On the “lines” of the trigger guard,.. quite nice in the close up,.. not so good in the overall. I think that the (design/aesthetic aspect) is lacking today. I really like a gun with flowing and fine lines.


    • Greetings Coduece
      I too prefer the looks, and feel of a “setback trigger” over the familiar placement of the Rekord trigger. Aside from making custom spring kits for Weihrauch, Diana, as well as Air Arms Prosport, and TX200, I believe V-Mach also makes a set back trigger blade for the Rekord trigger. The reason I decided against purchasing the setback trigger for my Weihrauch was the price. Depending on who sells them, they can go from $50.00, and up. I thought this was too expensive for what would essentially be a cosmetic change. I also enjoy the fact that more small companies are making custom parts such as springs, triggers, and evan safeties that can be re-engaged without having to re cock the spring piston. The fact these companies are designing, and supplying custom parts to replace the pet peeves customers have with parts from certain companies, shows our airgun sport is not only healthy, but is growing every year.
      I’m looking forward to having a look at this ball bearing trigger mechanism if possible. Have you thought about testing your HW85’s Rekord trigger against your Hi Score 87/Diana 27 trigger. Are the 2 stages of the ball bearing as sure as the Rekord trigger? Was the cost to manufacture Diana’s ball bearing trigger a reason it was replaced with the more familiar sear? It sounds like safety might have been a concern as well? Whatever the reasons, its great to have the opportunity to have BB weigh in on the subject of ball bearing triggers.
      Ciao
      Titus


      • Right on the set back, now I understand what I had been reading about for so long. I too am curious about the Diana trigger to me its genius using ball bearings to actuate the sear.



          • Mel83,

            That is interesting. I would liken a ball bearing sear to a lockset cylinder, I suppose. There was/is someone here that collects locks, studies them and practices picking them. My guess is that there is some cross over theory/application going on there.


            • ball bearings locking some sliding parts are a common construction element. It I used in some straight pull rifles, to fasten chisels to power hammers, in some autolocking batons, in quick release swivels etc etc…


  6. B.B.,

    I appreciate that you won’t mount a scope on the 27. That is not what the rail is designed for. It can harm the rail and spring tube if you tighten a scope mount too tight. I hate it when I see scopes on these rifles.

    However the rail is designed to accept the Diana aperture sight of the same vintage. (off the model 75 IIRC). I have one set up this way and it really improves my ability to shoot accurately with it. It doubles the sight radius and really sharpens the front post for my tired eyes.

    Enjoying this one. Thanks,
    Mark N


  7. First off, and most important is this… Thank you Tom. The info you provide has saved me countless hours of trial, error and research. 🙂
    My 807 sounds like one of those old spring doorstops being flipped when fired. Kind of a boing or a boink. So, she often stays in the cabinet. I hope to tune this out and change out the plastic seal for leather. Don’t kno when tho. The Point is, She’s a worthy enuf platform to spend the time on.
    The thing about these spring shooters, the good ones, is this…They reward you for the time and effort you put in. Simple, inexpensive, fun, and, deadly when needed. No SCUBA gear required. 🙂
    Peace out n tnx agin, John


    • John,

      Well, when I tear into my rifle I will keep you in mind. I know this powerplant can be a little daunting to work with because the trigger is a mess of separate parts that, once outside the rifle, want nothing to do with each other. I will show you how they fit together, how they work (hopefully) and most importantly, how to get them back inside the gun in the right order.

      Once your rifle is tuned properly I’m betting it will be your favorite.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        Those triggers are indeed very nice, and your adjustment instructions in a past blog installment were of tremendous help to me. Unfortunately, I have that trigger in only one of my air rifles, a Winchester 450 branded Diana Model 50. I would love a 27 or 25.

        My Model 50 is a beautiful air rifle, although it lacks the sweet aperture sight of the one you recently reported on, and it is in .177. Therefore, RWS Superpoints, with their thin skirts (unlike the thick-skirted .22s), are a great choice. I’m sure it would like Superpoints, too.

        My only complaints about the 450/50 is it is slightly heavy for long plinking sessions, and it’s short lever makes it cock with more effort than most air rifles of comparable power. I think of it as a little brother of my Hakim. :^)

        But ooh, a 25 with the ball-bearing trigger is perhaps my dream! Someday . . .

        Michael


        • Michael
          I thought you was going to give a update yesterday on your shooting with different holds. And if you are getting repeat results with group size on different days.


          • Gunfun1,

            I’ll shoot today and comment tomorrow.

            I installed a Bugbuster scope with low rings, as that was all I had handy. Yesterday, I dialed it in at 20 yards, which required a little windage adjustment and a LOT of elevating. It is a super-drooper! I was starting to think I might need a compensating adapter, but with one full turn plus one click, it was shooting about one inch low at 20 yards. I am interested in groups, not bullseyes, so good enough.

            I do not know when the erector tube starts to float, but this one did the trick.

            I decided to shoot it at 20 yards, not 25, because moving where I shoot from would involve just plain too much work. The extra 5 yards (from 15) and the scope should prove interesting. I wonder if one pellet will emerge as better than the others. At 15 yards with open sights there was negligible difference.

            I might be able to increase the distance to 21 or 22 yards. If I can, I’ll do it.

            Michael



  8. Tnx Tom,
    I’m pretty content to shoot (tnx 4 gr8 info on how to hold and fire) my old iron site P1, and my .22 wood Terrus. There b somethin I really like about the wide trigger on both…
    Also have an old .22 BSF S60. She only likes RWS hobbies. Can’t shoot another pellet straight. But shoots those hobbies like nobodies business. Leather seal too. 🙂 That trigger tho, it’s gotta go! Wonder if I could fit a Rekord to it? Never tried a Rekord trigger b4. I have access to buy an early R9 at $400…That’s alotta dough tho.
    I’m rambling. BSF S60 is grindin when cocked…She needs to be stripped b4 I can shoot er agin.

    Also haven’t touched a screw on my 807 trigger. That is sweet sweet unique trigger:) If I can tear either the 807 or the S60 down… (which should be possible because of you) There’s a strong possibility I’ll screw both of em up. 🙂 Please don’t ask how I kno this :).

    Those are my favorites(enuf 4 the rest of my natural life). So, I’ll be watchin 🙂 Tnx agin, John




  9. BB
    I would say clean out the old stuff and put some of the new stuff in. I would like to see the difference it makes in velocity, accuracy and shot cycle and sound compared to what it is now.


  10. Here’s my QB79 with the Air Venturi 3000 psi HPA bottle regulated down to 1200 psi.

    First off it’s actually a nice solid gun. Actually no plastic that I can tell. Put together nice. Quality of the wood and metal is all pretty nice. Even the bluing.

    It cocks very smooth too. And the gun is a little on the heavy side but also kind of short. And the trigger is a single stage. They list it as a two stage but don’t see it. Even in a trigger diagram. But the trigger works excellent. Kind of reminds me of my FWB 300 trigger but without the first stage pull the 300 has.

    And now the important part. Accuracy. Yes it is accurate. I bet I put 40 shots shots through it already and only moved the needle on the bottles gauge probably 400 psi. So it’s at about 2600 psi right now. And this gun should shoot down to the 1200 psi regulated mark with no velocity drop off. So I’m thinking about 120 usable shots from 3000 psi down to 1200 psi. Which is a big deal since I’m hand pumping now.

    Oh yeah forgot. Accuracy. So far it’s looking like it’s more accurate than my .22 Air Arms Tx Mrklll and .177 HW30s. But not as accurate as my FWB 300. And to note. It’s going to need to be a very accurate gun to be able to out shoot my FWB 300.

    But so far I like. If it can hold up mechanical wise and can keep giving repeat accuracy it’s going to be a winner. Oh and they only cost around $105. The bottle costs $89 and the adapter is around $35. So around $231. And I know people are going but I can get a Maximus for a bit less. But here’s the thing. The Maximus won’t get 120 consistent velocity shots per fill. Basically cause it’s not regulated.

    And one more thing. I would rather have a regulated bottle than a PCP rifle that has a built in internal regulator. If the bottle regulator fails you just unscrew the bottle and replace. If you have the internal regulated rifle. That means the gun has to come apart to be repaired.

    But here’s a picture of my gun. I’ll post some pictures later of some groups if the wind holds out. But got some stuff to do around the house right now.


    • GF1,

      Good point,.. real good point on the regulator being on the bottle. I am thinking of all of those air rifles, (that at least appear to), have a removable bottle out front.


      • Chris
        I see the different guns like that too. But even those I don’t think are regulated. The may be some that are regulated at the bottle. But I think they are unregulated guns and maybe some with internal regulators in the gun.

        That’s another reason I have to say it’s a big deal that Air Venturi made this 3000 psi HPA bottle that’s regulated down to the 1200 psi that will work a the pressure of Co2 guns. It’s much better than just attaching another 3000 psi bottle to your gun. Yes another hpa bottle will give a higher shot count. But your velocity will still change as bottle pressure runs out.

        I totally like a regulated bottle.


  11. Ok this is kind of interesting.

    Location of stock on the bag made a big difference on this gun. Here is the balance point of the gun. That’s normally where I rest the gun on the bag. That is my first group I shot on the bottom of this paper target.

    The gun was wanting to move from side to side. Like I had to much of the gun behind the rest. I’ll post this picture of where the gun was rested. So it will take me a few more posts to get the pictures posted.


    • Here is where I rested the gun on the bag on the 2nd and 3rd group.

      The gun was much more stable on the side to side movement. In other words the back half of the gun was closer to the bag so the back of the gun didn’t pivot side to side like the 1st group.

      And I’m not talking cant.or leaning over to the left or right.


      • And here is the group’s.

        Yep it tightened up nice after I rested the gun on the bag closer to the trigger guard.

        And you will notice. The gun did shoot low the first shot taken when I came back to shoot each next group. I did not shoot these groups one after another. I wanted to give myself time to refresh for the next set of 10 shots.

        And I now got close to 90 shots through the gun and it’s on 2200 psi. So it’s looking like the gun will get more than 120 shots down to 1200 psi from 3000. And that’s what I’m talking about. 🙂



        • Those are nice groups! Thanks for the report and I’ll certainly consider this gun for my next acquisition, Gunfun1.

          Are the 1st/2nd shots “seasoning” shots then? If you just shoot them into the dirt, you could get some even more impressive groups! I wonder how long you can suspend shooting before more seasoning” is required.

          Based on my limited PCP experiences with my TalonP, I’m beginning to think that PCPs, with their valves / regulators, have more of a problem requiring seasoning than springers (or even my Benji 39x rifles for some reason or other). My theory is the PCP valves “take a set” under pressure at rest somehow. Even fill pressure makes a difference. If I fill my TalonP to say 2750 psi, and shoot it down to 2500 psi with five shots, the next five shots will land in a different place and fly with different velocities than when I just fill it to 2500 psi. to begin-with and shoot five shots! Similarly, if I fill my tank somewhat quickly to say 2600 psi, but then let it cool and stabilize at 2500 psi. before I shoot, the results will be different than filling it slowly to 2500 with no “hot air” fill pressure overshoot.

          I have to say that I’m disappointed that my TalonP is capable of shooting groups only almost as small as my .177 LGV’s groups at 50 yards, but, even worse, the TalonP group velocities and placement on the target are nowhere near as consistent as my LGV groups.

          Maybe I just need to find time to install my 26″ TJ’s barrel and a thrifty Talon valve and hammer setup into my TalonP carbine. The long barrel will be capable of performing very well with far less air and maybe the standard (non High Flow / Direct Flow) valve is more consistent in its operation than my TalonP valve.

          -Cal


          • Cal
            Yep on the seasoning.

            What I usually do before I shoot groups is I’ll take 3-4 shots at my steel spinners. Pretty much with any gun I’m shooting be it a springer, pcp, multi-pump and even my .22 rimfire guns.

            But what I have been doing lately and especially if I’m going to post a picture of my groups on the blog. I just pick up the gun and shoot my 10 shot group. And I will circle the first shots and label them if they fall outside the main group. That way if you see a shot that is outside the group and it’s not labeled then it’s a flyer. And of course I will label if it’s a shot I pull.

            Figure I would start doing it that way then people can see how the first shots could be different than the rest of the groups.

            And if I’m shooting groups with a springer I don’t like to just keep shooting groups over and over. I think that warms the spring up a bit and fatigues it.

            As we both know. Alot variables can take place the more you start thinking about stuff.


  12. Impressive shots. I always had the idea that many PCPs (as many things) are unnecessarily expensive, even if they boast nice design, great finish and bluing. I mean, do they really need to be much more expensive than many firearms? Of course, they are nice enough, but paying +1300 USD for an unregulated, 30-shot rifle, sometimes something in my head screams.
    I’m talking about Daystate, Edgun, Theoben, even Air Arms. How much are we paying for prestige?
    This very nice rifle you almost built, can outshoot many around-$1000-rifles. Makes one to think.
    PS. Outstanding work! I wish I had your abilities 🙂


    • Anthony
      No abilities. The QB79 was made to accept the different air sources.

      The main thing is to know what the system operates on pressure wise. The system being the gun.

      If you have a Co2 gun and you want to make it a HPA/high pressure air gun. Then you need to know what pressure Co2 guns operate at.

      For the most part 1100 psi of HPA plus or minus 300 psi will operate a Co2 gun. So regulating the air pressure is the best way to get the most shot counts out of a given size air resivoir.

      But yes your right. How much of a gun do you really need to have a fun and accurate gun. Cost is irrelevant. Lower cost guns for sure can preform as well as and in some cases better than high cost guns.

      I’m one not for the China guns. But I have been noticing something. It seems that like all the other air guns out there coming from different countries. There is better guns made from those countries and not as good guns. The more I’m starting to pay attention it seems true for China products also.

      So maybe what is driving quality products and not so good quality products has to do more with biusness decisions more than the quality end product.


  13. Ive been absent for a while, can someone educate me on this new substance almagard 3752?
    I tuned a 27 and a 35 a few years back with the lithium grease and some black tar on the mainspring. Both behave like firearms. I have to admit I am partial to the larger portions of the 35, and prefer shooting it over the 27. ( it does not feel like a sculpted 2×4 to me sorry B.B.)I really love these leather sealed-ball bearing trigger rifles. Something about a short stroke that promotes accuracy for me.
    I wish Diana would make the 27 again, it would be very popular even at a premium price. It is a nearly perfect spring air rifle for kids and adults.




      • BB

        Tune In A Tube (TIAT) has received good reports on this blog. It continues to amaze me. Why is it not a hot item among folks who like metal springers? The applicator is handy for using this tachy substance too.

        Decksniper


      • B.B.,

        You say it’s not an accuracy enhancing tool, but I’ve read from your Tune in a Tube tests that it reduces shot velocity. I consider this to perhaps be a good thing! I think most springs are too strong to lie within my own power/accuracy sweet spot needs (at least guns marketed for U.S. sales). If the thick goop slows down the piston, wouldn’t it also somewhat mitigate a strong and harsh recoil and result in less shot disturbance or at least less hold sensitivity?

        I still need to order a weaker spring for my .177 LGV to see if I can get it to shoot fantastic 50 yard groups like you shot with the lower ft-lb .22 LGV. I’m getting pretty close on windless days. Maybe Almagard 3752 would do the trick for my .177 but, then again, a weaker spring from Umarex isn’t any more expensive than a tube of T in T or 3752 and maybe the velocity changes aren’t enough to significantly improve accuracy. My LGV is already velvety smooth, right from the box.

        -Cal


  14. I mentioned that I would post a photo of my new 4-1/2 Wika XSEL pressure gauge in B.B.’s last blog (Diana Stormrider PCP). I purchased a professional grade process gauge for less than $13, including shipping, from an Amazon seller.

    It’s hooked up to my Hill pump using a double male end adapter in the middle, which I made to charge my SCUBA tank using my Hill pump. I no longer use the tank for diving and usually tether it to my TalonP carbine when I shoot off a bench. I live two hours away from the nearest fill station and they charge a whopping $12 too, which motivates me to exercise with the Hill pump!

    With all the length and connectors, the setup previously required about 20 cycles on the Hill pump to pressurize the connectivity hardware to 3000 psi. With the new Wika gauge mounted, it takes about 29 pumps. The new valve is definitely contributing additional “parasitic” volume, compared to my original 1″cheapie Ninja Paintball gauge. Some of the extra volume is in the 1/4 NPT to 1/8″ NPT brass fitting required to neck down the larger pipe thread on the Wika gauge. I think I’ll try to thread the SCUBA adapter to directly accept the 1/4″ Wika gauge fitting and see how much it helps.

    The professional quality Wika XSEL gauge sure is nice and easy to read with its huge white face and 20 psi. scale graduations! It comes with a nice owners manual and it can be converted to liquid fill (though there’s no reason to do so for PCP use). The pointer is internally adjustable to obtain a perfect zero too.

    -Cal



      • Yeah, and again, you can safely use all of that 3000 psi. range! Most cheap gauges are typically not rated for constant pressures above about 75% of full scale (plus I’ve heard they often die when subjected to very little over pressure).

        BTW, My new +/- 0.5% Wika agrees with my Hill gauge, inasmuch as I can read the smaller Hill gauge, so I’ll proclaim at least my Hill gauge to be accurate! As you’ve often noted about gun gauges, my 1″ TalonP gauge is not accurate (reads about 100 psi. high), not that it matters. Being able to easily and consistently read a gauge is what matters to me.


        • Update on my Wika gauge installation:

          I threaded my Ninja Paintball SCUBA tank yoke adapter with a 1/4″ NPT tap and I no longer need the brass 1/8″ to 1/4″ NPT adapter coupling. This Air Venturi yoke looks just like my yoke so it would probably work too.

          https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Scuba_Tank_Yoke_K_Valve_Adapter_Hose_with_Quick_Disconnect/7530
          https://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Air_Venturi_Scuba_Tank_Yoke_K_Valve_Adapter_Hose_Assembly_1_8_BSPP_Threads/534

          However, other than eliminating the need for the brass adapter, there was nothing gained by my threading effort. It still takes about 30 pumps to charge my double hoses to 3000 psi. and now I think it probably always took 30 but I incorrectly recalled the number. Most of the parasitic volume is in my hoses, I think. To charge the double hose assembly takes 30 pumps to 3000 psi., 20 pumps to 2000 psi., but only 10 pumps to 2000 psi. with only the single Hill hose connecting my Hill pump to my TalonP tank.

          I’ve found no downside to the large gauge, other than perhaps it’s greater vulnerability to damage if the tank falls over (always a risky thing to be avoided with SCUBA tanks), because the gauge might contact the ground. However, the Wika gauge is not so large that the tank can’t be laid on it’s side with the gauge still readable.



      • GF1,

        That is cool. I had never thought of such a thing. Now that I have my own compressor and tank I would not bother, but I could see where that would be a fun little tinker project and most definitely a good intermediate step for someone. With the proper setup you could pop off the shop hose and pop on a moisture filter and still have portability.

        Thanks with sharing that with us again. I had missed it previously.


        • RR
          Yep wish I would of thought of it or found out about if someone did it before I got my Shoebox compressor. I might not of even got my Shoebox.

          And talking about being portable. I bet one of those cigarette lighter little tire pumps would work if you was out somewhere camping or something.

          Just plug it into your vehicle and hook to the hand pump. Turn on the tire pump and start pumping away on the hand pump. Bet it would work.


      • Ok gf1 you know about me working on my spinners right. Well I also just completed a top secret project that’s very very compatable with your hand pump booster. I’ve developed a hand pump actuator that decreases the force required to achieve 3000 psi from 150 lbs to around 50 lb as measured with the old bathroom scale test. Together half the strokes with 1/3 the force winner winner chicken dinner!


        • Coduece
          Now you know you can’t keep it a secret forever. 😉

          But cool. Interested in hearing about it when ever your ready. The sooner the better though.

          It just might help get more people into pcp’s that shy away for numerous reasons.


          • This actuator will break down without tools into two fairly light weight but sturdy pieces making it highly transportable. It doesn’t speed up the pumping process but makes it much easier. I’m super stoked about it. And i can’t wait to show it off to someone, but this forum might be too public for the moment.


            • Coduece
              I’m betting BB will be able to point you in the right direction.

              I know throughout time that I have been here on the blog he has helped numerous people including me with projects.



                • Coduece
                  Crosman was suppose to release a butterfly hand pump but had problems getting it to work out.

                  Maybe since Air Venturi is part of Pyramyd Air maybe they would be interested in what you have. They have definitely came out some different things.

                  I really bet BB can get something rolling for ya.


                • Coduece,

                  Very nice. I know that if I had a hand pump, I would be doing the leverage advantaged angle for sure. Not that I can’t pump,… but why put in the extra effort if it can be made easier?

                  To me, a waist level handle that operated side to side would be the best,… but due to the instability would require a more substantial base. Yours sounds good.

                  (I wish you all the best with your idea). And, like I have said in the past,… I greatly admire innovation!



                    • Coduece,

                      Maybe a tailgate mounted model can be the Gen II version? Exotic woods? Titanium? You know how those infomercials work?,…. they show you the latest and greatest thing and then come out with something even better 2 months later. All the while sucking in the bucks! 😉



      • Yeah, Gunfun1. I actually did become aware of this trick from you the other day but didn’t have time to look into it. Thanks for the links! I’ve read the thread now and will definitely give it a go. Besides reducing hand pump fill times and water vapor, it also has the potential to result in a cooler hand pump after a fill. By using partially compressed air at ambient temperature (letting the air compressor output air cool in a tank and long hose), the hand pump will suffer the heat of compression less. Of course if you fill your PCP’s tank faster than before, the hand pump might still get just as hot, but I’m certain that if you fill your PCP tank no faster than before, the hand pump will operate cooler and be cooler at the end of a fill.

        My Hill MK4 contains only one unreliable part–the lower slide tube o-ring. It’s in the low pressure first stage. It takes a compression set in short order and starts to leak. I’ve found that replacing the Hill metric part with a slightly 119 size (slightly fatter cross section) mil-spec Viton (FKM) o-ring helps a lot but the o-ring lasts even longer if I use a 119 AFLAS (FEPM) material. AFLAS sometimes features superior set resistance to Viton/FKM, it depends on the formulation. A Perfluoroelastomer (FFKM) o-ring would probably last even longer, but I can’t see spending over $40 for a single o-ring!

        Strangely, tiny green high pressure stage Hill o-ring seems to last forever and is very robust but pre-charging the input air may (or may not) reduce the compression set vulnerability of my lower slide tube o-ring. Compression set is a function of time in service but perhaps also operating temperature so I’m hopeful this method will yield a reliability benefit to my Hill MK4 pump too.

        Thanks again!

        -Cal


  15. Was hoping to post some more group’s today from the QB79.

    Not happening. Wind has been ridiculous today. 14 mph winds and changing directions. Maybe later it will calm.

    But on the bright side been plinking with it all day. I hit every spinner and feild target’s I shot at today. Did try some paper but groups opened up to about a inch and a half at 50 yards. And not only the 79. The FWB 300 and Tx couldn’t group either today. Their groups opened up too.

    But I will be say the 79 gets heck of a lot of shots to a fill. And I shot down to just above 1000 psi. So definitely not regulated anymore. Still was hitting spinners. I lost count but easy was at a 180 shots out of a fill and no poi drop. And I’m sure I should of seen the poi drop with the added wind.

    Oh and I don’t remember if I mentioned. The gun is quiet. It’s a bit louder than a Marauder. But way quieter than a Discovery or Maximus.

    The more I shoot it the more I like it. It is a good gun for the cost that’s for sure.


    • Forgot and that was with me trying to shoot if I saw the wind drop off. And that’s how I was plinking to. Trying to wait for the wind to drop off to take the shot.

      If I just shot 10 shots in a row the group’s on all the guns went 2 inches.

      Definitely not a good shooting day.


      • GF1,

        I am doing the homemade wind flags at 50 and 100 today, (shooting 100). The results are quite surprising. As you know, I do not lack for trees, but the gusts can be 10-15 at 80-100 ft. tree tops and 0 at the ground. OR, the ground can indicate maybe 5-7 and the tree tops nothing. Branch sway, leaf sound, and limb movement are all indicators as well. Point being, what you may (think) is happening at target may be very different than what is (actually) happening at target.

        *** All I can say is get, or make yourself some sort of wind indicator(s) ya’ all!!! 😉

        1″ fluorescent orange safety tape will be my Gen. 2 model. The vinyl bolt caps have worked well with no securing. They pivot nicely. I am thinking of adding different lengths, up to 12″ and maybe add a staple at the end of the strips for some weight.

        Groups with the .25 M-rod are nothing to brag about at 100 today (2 1/2″-3″). I did put the baffles back to full stock, no weights, just to see how it would do. I will say that a .25 M-rod is LOUD with no baffles and the expansion chamber blocked.

        A beautiful Fall day,…. back to shooting!


        • Chris
          Yep the wind can blow in mysterious ways.

          I’m glad you put your flags out. And one of the tricks my dad taught me when I was a young’n was to watch the grass or leaves or twigs to blow at different distances to the target.

          Wind definitely changes results.



          • GF1,

            I think that was the longest video you have ever made,.. as opposed to the few second ones. Very nice. I like the hard right shifting to a hard left and then every thing in between. A perfect example of why a wind flag ought to be part of one’s shooting arsenal.

            Some shots today I held off a full 4″ to get the pellet to hit the bullseye. A measured/gridded 4″ I might add. This will take some practice to get even close to being right.


            • Chris
              I try to keep the video’s shorter that way they load faster. And I was thinking that when I was recording it. But only way I could show how it was moving around.

              I did make a reply that you might of missed kind of explaining the flag movement in relation to the wind.

              And the more you shoot with windage hold and write down notes of how much mildot hold you need. You’ll be able to adjust quicker than you think.


            • Chris
              Here is some 10 shot group’s I just did. The wind settled to about 9 mph. Definitely better wind than yesterday and better than earlier when I posted the video.

              But you can see that the QB and 300 didn’t do as well as the .22 Tx. The Tx is making more fps han the QB and the 300. Plus the heavier 15.89 .22 pellet is bucking the wind better with the higher velocity.

              Goes to show that also the right velocity is important in relation to weight and distance. With wind involved.


          • I should note that when you hear the wind in the video is when the wind is blowing hard. That’s around 12 mph. When you see the flag steady to one side but don’t hear the wind. That’s about 9 mph. When the flag is at about a 45° angle that’s about 5-6 mph. If the flag is verily moving that’s 4 mph and under.

            The flag is very sensitive. So it looks like it’s blowing harder than it is. It’s definitely very effective.



  16. OT, but I thought I’d share.

    “The U.S. Army’s new Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR) program is rumored to have been canceled,” wrote Matthew Moss on Sept. 30, 2017 for Task & Purpose.

    Michael


  17. Chris,

    Sorry.

    First, I have no idea how legit this news site is, so take anything on it with a water-softener-block of salt.

    Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR) is a recently APPROVED (probably soon-to-be-canceled) project to purchase 50,000 replacements of both the M4 and NATO round in favor of a new platform (or SCAR platform, which is in the running) and the 7.62X51 round (or new M80A1 EPR, which penetrates body armor more than the 7.62X51) with at least four requirements: select fire, body armor piercing, 600 yard range, and under 12 pounds unloaded.

    Michael




        • Michael
          Sounds like they were after a closer range sniper rifle to me.

          Maybe they rethought it and figured the .50 caliber BMG sniper guns they already have has it covered at that distance and farther.


          • Gunfun1,

            Could be, but it sounds like they were looking to find the rifle to replace the M4 M16, and that their number one thing was a weapon that shot a round that can pierce the current, state-of-the-art military body armor. The NATO round doesn’t cut it (pierce it?) anymore.

            Michael


            • Michael
              Yep and sounds like they was trying for a normal issue carry gun that could b a combined combat/sniper gun if needed.

              Seems like combat now takes place at longer distances than it use to. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems that way to me.




    • David,

      Almagard 3752 is the best grease I have ever used on a spring piston air rifle. The Beeman products can’t compare. I don’t know what Maccari is selling today, but Almagard is better than the old Black Tar.

      It’s thinner than the thickest products, but it stops all vibration. So you don’t lose velocity like you do wit the other greases.

      B.B.


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