by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Weihrauch HW 85.
This report covers:
- The test
- Beeman Kodiaks
- Eye not up to par
- RWS Superdome
- JSB Exact Jumbo
- Crosman Premiers
- 25 yards
- Summary
The test
Today is our first day of accuracy testing the HW85 and I’m going to do something different. I will start at 10 meters, using the open sights that came on the rifle I’m testing. But I will only shoot 5-shot groups. I’m not interested in the absolute accuracy at 10 meters because this rifle can shoot farther than that. Ten meters is too close to accuracy test a rifle like this and expect any degree of confidence, and today you will see why.
Naturally I’m shooting with the rifle rested on a sandbag. I’m using the artillery hold, because even though the rifle is super smooth, it still recoils forward a lot. I held my off hand forward, under the rear of the cocking slot.
Once I see how it does at 10 meters I’m backing up to 25 yards with the best pellet or pellets and we’ll start to see its potential. At least that is my hope.
Beeman Kodiaks
The first pellet I tested was the time-honored Beeman Kodiak. These .22 caliber pellets have 5.50mm heads. They landed low on the target in a group that measures 0.343-inches between centers. Remember, this is a 5-shot group, not 10.
Five Beeman Kodiaks went into 0.343-inches at 10 meters.
At this point the rifle is only performing as it should.
Eye not up to par
Today I had a lot of difficulty seeing the front post in the rear notch. The front post was difficult to focus on throughout the entire test. I have to assign some of the group size to my eyes.
RWS Superdome
Next up was the RWS Superdome pellet. Since it’s lighter, I figured it would land higher on the target than the Kodiak, but it didn’t. It dropped even lower and also went to the left. Since part of the group was off the paper I just photographed the target and backer cardboard together.
This group of 5 measures 0.368-inches between centers. It looked smaller to me at first, but after looking at it awhile I see that it’s a trifle larger than the Kodiak group.
Five Superdomes went into 0.368-inches at 10 meters. Notice that they also landed lower on the target.
JSB Exact Jumbo
The next pellet I tried was the JSB Exact Jumbo. Now that I knew the pellets were all hitting too low I adjusted the rear sight up by 8 clicks. The first group was awful because of my sighting problems, but it contained a tight main group of four shots that made me try it a second time. That gave me the answer I was looking for.
The second time, 5 pellets landed in 0.288-inches and I got excited. I even shot one shot at the wrong target, so I had to shoot a 6th shot to get this 5-shot group. Even with that it is still great. I’m still only shooting just 5 pellets at 10 meters distance, so a lot can happen when I back up and get serious, but this pellet looked like one to get serious with.
Five JSB Exact Jumbo pellets made this tight 0.288-inch group at 10 meters.
Crosman Premiers
The final pellet I tested was the Crosman Premier. Five of them made a 0.392-inches group at 10 meters. It’s within the range of the other groups but not quite as tight, so I decided not to test it further.
Five Crosman Premier pellets made this 0.392-inch group at 10 meters.
25 yards
Now I backed up to 25 yards to try the JSB pellet at that distance. I expected success, based on that 10-meter group. But sometimes things don’t work out as planned. I did call one of these shots as a pull to the left, but when I examined the target I can’t tell which one it is. The 10 pellets are scattered all over the place!
Ten shots went into 1.903-inches between centers. That’s close to 2 inches! I have seen this happen before, where the gun is accurate at 10 meters but falls apart farther out. However, it isn’t that common. I can blame my eyes for a little of the group size, but as you will see in the next group, it’s a lot more than that. This pellet isn’t accurate in this rifle at this distance.
Ten JSB Exact Jumbos went into 1.903-inches at 25 yards. That was a surprise, based on the 10-meter group.
That group drove me to test one more pellet at 25 yards. Like I said, I thought Superdomes were the next best, so that’s what I chose.
Ten Superdomes went into a 2.694-inch group at 25 yards, but again, there was a called pull to the left. Shot number three actually went left, and this time you can see it, because the other 9 pellets are in a 0.978-inch cluster. While that’s not a tight group, it does indicate the HW85 wants to shoot. Maybe with a scope I could eliminate my aiming error.
At 25 yards 10 RWS Superdomes went into 2.694-inches, but the shot on the left was a called pull. The other 9 shots are in 0.978-inches between centers.
Summary
Today did not go as well as I hoped. I had hoped to put 10 shots into 3/4-inches at 25 yards. Part of it was my eyes, but most of it is the fact I haven’t discovered the right pellet for this rifle yet. I may also not have found the best artillery hold. I may even need to try the rifle rested directly on the bag.
I think another 25-yard test is in order. I’ll give you a break for a little while as we look at some other vintage airguns, but this ain’t over! After the next test I plan to scope the rifle and test it again at 25 yards.
B.B.
Would shooting with a William aperture sight, or something similar help you?
You have the front globe with interchangeable inserts…
-Y
Yogi,
My eyes vary, day by day. One day they are sharp and the next they aren’t. I am seeing the doctor in December and maybe it can be fixed. We’ll see.
B.B.
Not to pry, but one problem I have noticed when my eyesight varies on a day to day basis is it can be be blood sugar. You may want to consider picking up an inexpensive blood sugar testing kit at the drug store and see what your blood glucose levels are on good and bad days.
It’s just a simple way to rule out a possible problem; blood sugar can really affect your eyes.
Try to think back, if it is it worse after a meal or when you are hungry. it could be hypo glycemia or prediabetic symptoms.
No need to post about it, but it is something that is often easy to rule out or resolve.
I’m hoping for “rule out”. 🙂
Qjay,
I have type one diabetes and test my blood sugar many times each day. When I developed it following the removal of part of my pancreas in 2011, I was so dehydrated that my eyes took 6 months to return to normal. That is why I have many sets of reading glasses on hand.
Thanks for thinking of me,
B.B.
I’m glad to hear it isn’t something that is an unconsidered factor here, then. I am sorry you have to manage this, it is a brutal and debilitating condition and one I hope to never “achieve”.
I also hope it has nothing to do with your eyes.
Best wishes, Godfather.
B.B.,
I’m thinking that the five shot groups at 10 meters you made are a waste of time in determining the best pellet for this rifle. All showed promise that fell apart at the farther distance. Is there another distance intermediate between 10 meters and 25 yards (23 meters) that could be used to determine the best pellet?
If the rifle is still recoiling forward would it be theoretically possible to further minimize this by lightening the piston?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Lightening the piston can help with the forward recoil as using a less powerful spring. However you risk increasing piston bounce, most especially when you use heavier pellets. Even if you get away with no increase in piston bounce, you will reduce the power.
RidgeRunner,
Yeah I get it. It’s all in the balance of several factors.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
The way I wrote the report the 5-shot groups do look like a waste, but that’s not always the case. Sometimes you’ll find a gun that will only shoot one pellet well at that distance and you save a lot of time. This one obviously isn’t like that. You are seeing me every step of the way as I learn the rifle.
No waste, just more time spent with a nice airgun.
B.B.
B.B.,
Yes, I think I took it that way. Then again any time spent on such a beautifully looking and performing (even at 10 meters so far) is time well spent. You are just familiarizing yourself with a relatively new purchase, learning it’s foibles along the way.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
That’s it.
B.B.
G’day BB
Just put a good scope on it and let your eyes relax.
I shoot a straight vertical line group with an aperture sight these days. I can’t centre the bead…or see it properly!
I have an R10 and its a great little rifle. Just worked out its around 20 years old now…how time flies!
Cheers Bob
Bob,
Oh, I do plan to scope this one! I’m just taking my time about it.
Glad to hear you own an R10. They are about perfect, as far as size and power goes.
B.B.
BB,
I was going to suggest a different hold. I do believe that will help. Not being able to focus on the sight does not help either.
Some days the dragon wins.
RR,
Some days… 😉
B.B.
BB,
I don’t know if this will be helpful or if it’s something that you haven’t already tried, but I thought I’d mention it, just in case. I’ve been shooting bb pistols alot lately thanks to some of your recent work here.( the thanks is from me, my wife, not so much 😉 ) and have trouble using the open sights. I wear bifocals and found that I could see the sights perfectly through the reading lenses but the 2 1/2″ falling plates that I was shooting at 21′ were so badly out of focus that it didn’t help my aim, and it was difficult to keep my head tilted back to line my eyes with the reading lenses anyway. I never throw anything away, as my wife will attest, so I still had all the reading glasses ( cheap drugstore “Cheaters” ) that I have accumulated as my close vision has worsened over the years. I found that the first ones I bought which, were also the weakest, put the sights in great focus and just barely blurred the targets and as a result my aim is much improved. This may not even work with rifle sights, although I intend to try at some future date. I have also thought, though haven’t tested, that removing the lens on the none dominant eye to form mono vision might enable me to see both sights and target in clear focus. I functioned with this form of vision for over 20 years when I had my vision surgically corrected in just one eye. I read with one eye and used the other for distance viewing.
I hope this vision thing is not permanent.
Halfstep,
What a great idea! I went through a series of “cheaters” as my eyes deteriorated last year. I will try that.
Thanks,
B.B.
BB,
I’d really like to hear back how it works for you, especially if you end up trying the monovision thing.
Halfrstep,
I tried it this afternoon and it worked well. Read about it Monday.
B.B.
BB’
Can’t wait !
My detuned (11.8 FPE) R1 will consistently hit 3/8 kill zones out to 20 yards from my bipod. I think the key is that the rest is a half circle, not a V and it allows the rifle to recoil freely. In, fact, it shoots so accurately that I feel no pressing need to go to the Dark Side until I’ve wrung out the last ounce of potential from the R1
B.B.,
I have noticed that occasionally you will comment on having a day when your vision is not as good as other days.
Might you be a sufferer (as I am) of periodic dry eye syndrome? I do not have it all the time, perhaps once a week or ten days, but when I do it affects my vision at all distances. I have some over-the-counter drops (ask your ophthalmologist’s office for his or her preference of brands), and they work like a charm. Put a drop in each eye from the tiny bottle, blink ten times, close them and roll them around for a few seconds, dry your face off with a tissue, and in five-ten minutes your eyes are good to go for many hours. And they feel great for those hours! I can read for much longer on days when I use them, too.
Because it occurs irregularly, I did not even realize I had this until my ophthalmologist diagnosed me when I complained to him of so-so days like you describe. He was not at all surprised and said that it’s common in men past their 50s and women past their 40s. He gave me a sample of an OTC product and presto!
It can’t hurt to try, even if you have none of the other symptoms (itchy, irritated, red eyes, etc.), because I didn’t have those symptoms hardly at all, unless my hay fever kicks up. The drops help then, too.
Michael
Michael,
I have dry eye and take drops 4 times each day. That could be a contributor.
B.B.
BB,
The Nov 1993 issue of the British magazine Airgun World contains a review of the HW85 by Jon Paris. The test model was in .177 cal. His conclusion was that the HW85 seemed to be very pellet sensitive. The results of his 5 shot groups (centre-to-centre) at 25 yards were as follows:
RWS Superdome 34mm
RWS Hobby 9mm
RWS Diabolo 12mm
H&N Silhouette 22mm
Superpoint 17mm
H&N FT 7mm
Your HW85 is .22 cal, but it would be interesting to see how it fares with RWS Hobbys and H&N FTTs.
Bob,
I’m still on my first cup of coffee, but I’m confused. Paris tested the rifle in six different calibers? Furthermore, only 9mm and 12mm (.45/4 caliber?) are standard calibers. 22mm is over .80 caliber!
Michael
Well, 17mm is close to 12 gauge, or .72/.71 caliber.
Michael
Oh, the GROUPS! I warned that I was still on my first cup of coffee.
Michael
Michael,
Sorry! I didn’t spot that you had answered your own question while I was putting the kettle on and typing my reply.
Good morning Michael,
Paris tested the rifle in .177 calibre only. The six sizes listed are of the groups he shot with six different pellet types at 25yds.
A 34mm calibre air rifle (air cannon?) would quite a sight! ;o)
“..would be quite a sight”, I should have wrote – I need a cup of coffee too.
Bob,
Extreme Airguns make a standard model .72 cal. (12 gauge) PCP and I believe have made a custom 80mm one as well. Mr. Hollowpoint has shot many of them on video, and they generate well over 1000 foot-pounds, if I recall correctly.
Michael
Bob,
I’m out of Hobbys in .22, but I have FTTs.
I will try different pellets next time, as well as giving the Kodiaks a try.
B.B.
B.B.,
Excluding the called flier, the group you shot at 25 yards with the superdomes and open sights is very respectable!
You may not remember this but…………..years ago I bought a tuned HW85 in .22 caliber. It came with a leupold 3-9 X 33 EFR. Good scope for that gun. The firing cycle was a dream.
I couldn’t get that gun to group at 25 yards to save my life. I tried different holds, a huge variety of pellets, switched scopes thinking the leupold was out of whack, etc. etc. Nothing worked.
After many months frustration got the better of me. I asked you for suggestions. You patiently responded with the usual, “make sure the screws are tight, make sure the scope adjustments aren’t at the end of range, etc.” Then you said that because of the era that the HW85 grew up in it had probably been shot with crosman premiers (favorite pellet of that era) and therefore I should scrub the barrel with your JB Bore paste method.
I did it and was shocked at the pellet fragments that came out of that HW85 .22 caliber barrel! Groups tightened immediately and the best pellet in my HW85 .22 caliber was the Beeman FTS BY FAR.
Thanks for your help with that challenge. I’ll always remember that journey with that HW85.
kevin
Kevin,
You’re using my words against me? Oh, no!
Who knows where this barrel has been. I will clean it — SIR! 😉
B.B>
B.B.,
Not really using your words against you. 😉
It was primarily a belated Thank You. I sincerely want to thank you for everything. Doubt you truly know how much you and Edie enriched my life.
Blessings,
kevin
Kevin,
You know I was just joshing!
B.B.
Of course!
Nice read B.B.,
It’s funny how things happen but, about a week or so I dug my R10 out of a dust covered gun case and started sighting it in. I had a peep sight on it but switched back to the rear notch sight it came with years ago. I want to teaching my boys how to shoot in the back yard and maybe thin down the rabbit population in my back yard.
It’s an R10 Deluxe in .20 cal. and like all of my guns it’s as close to mint condition as you can come without it being new in the box. Its beautiful and as I remembered it was really accurate but things weren’t as warm and fuzzy as I remembered. One being the total lack of the pellets in .20 that I use to use.
I bought it back in the early 90’s just as I was starting graduate school and never scoped it or had it accurized like I planned to. Eating and getting to school were more important at the time so I also didn’t stockpile the pellets it liked. I did put about 750-1,000 rounds through it over the next four years to take out some of my frustrations from school. It helped put out the lights out on quite a few rats, ground squirrels and starlings. I eventually packed it away when we moved and I’ve not shot it much since.
Now to the questions. I seem to remember buying 4 tins of pellets and of course the ones that shot the best I used up back in the 90″s and can’t find them now! I mainly shot close range with open sights and I never shot over 10-15 yards so I’m not sure how accurate they actually were considering your article.
The pellets I shot up were all Beeman branded and it seems like it liked the Silver Arrows or Kodiaks best, can’t remember which, and then Silver Bears next. Although the Bears may have been good in my head because it was a hollow point and they looked cool! Anyway the only ones I have left are a half tin of 500 Beeman H&N match and it doesn’t seem to like them all that much. Grouping are about an inch at 10 yards, Of course this could be my eyes as the front blade is fuzzy.
I’ve ordered some JSB Exact Diabolo 13.73 gr. thinking they would be close to the Kodiak’s but, after seeing how the JSB Exact Jumbo’s grouped in your article, I’m not so sure. I know it’s going to be trial and error but locating a variety of pellets to pool from has been a little difficult.
I was also thinking of finding someone to work on it the gun and smooth things up if the costs were reasonable. Or should I just scope it and be happy?
Anyway, any help your or your readers can give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
KLowe,
Welcome to the blog.
You and I are on a journey. What you see in today’s post is all the shooting I have done with my rifle, other than a few offhand shots years ago and when I was testing velocity. I am learning this thing as I go.
There have been several suggestions in the comments today, and I plan to try many of them. We will see this together.
B.B.
Klowe, I have same R10 (.20) circa 1990, mint. Select group, barrel, etc. Has been scoped for 5 years now. I am 65 now, open sights bad for me. I always had (have) perfect vision, but need readers. Recently purchased R1 for the fun of it, also scoped.Here is what I found with the “fit” of the pellet when inserting. see attached photo. I did not test all for grouping, the JSB at 15 yards with R1 are tighter than I can rest hold the rifle. I feel that the “fit” has a lot to do with the accuracy of any given pellet.
Paul Fitzgibbon Neenah, Wis.
I shoot an .20 cal R9 and have found the JSB 13.7 gr pellet to be the most accurate. It differs from other .20 pellets as its head diameter is 5.1mm and is very consistant in size.
B.B.,
It’s been a while since I’ve read anything about Rich Shar and his work with springers. Have you heard anything? I sometimes wonder if he sold or licensed his work to a big company.
Michael
Michael,
I talked to Rich last year at the Pyramyd AIR Cup, but not since then.I think he should be doing well. I will attempt to contact him.
B.B.
B.B.,
I don’t know him personally, but what I’m really dying to know is if his unique method of smoothing out mega-magnum springers is going anywhere.
Michael
Michael,
Well, I asked him.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks much,
Michael
Ever heard of Rich Imhoff who used to go by Rich from Mich? He did a super job, tuning my B30 and then dropped out of sight. Along with the disappearance of him and Bob Werner, I take it that the trend of fixing up cheap B30s has long passed.
Matt61
The other day me and Chris was talking about wind flags. I asked Chris to text me some pictures of his flag this weekend and I would post them for him.
There is 3 pictures. I’ll post them and he can explain.
(1)
(2)
(3)
GF1,
Thank you very much for that. I wanted a wind flag that could also indicate the intensity of the wind. At first, I thought just strips. Then I figured I would vary the length in hopes of the longer ones showing more wind, if out straight. I put the longest to the bottom so as it would not tangle up the shorter ones.
A test with it 2′ in front of a window fan, on low, had the 3″ full out. Medium picked up the 6 and 9″. High picked up the longest one and sent it straight out,… so I would say that my theory panned out.
The tape is 1″ safety tape. I cut a 1″ x 4″ piece of plastic coffee can lid and stapled the tape to that. Next was the bolt caps, which I then taped to the flag. The top cap has a .177 pellet, skirt down jammed up in it. The rod is 1/8″ and 2′ long. The top end has been pointed and sanded to act as a bearing against the pellet. I finished it up with a final layer of duct tape just to smooth out the looks a bit.
Hopefully that gives someone an idea for their wind flags. They do help and you will learn what the wind is actually doing on your range.
Thanks again Gunfun1. (I typed Gunfu,… hey,… that sort of works too) 😉
Chris
No problem on posting the pictures.
And haha. Gunfu. That’s a good one. 🙂
But yep for sure the wind flags will tell a story that you would normally not see at certian places throughout the shooting range.
Like you have also said before. People should try at least a couple out on their range. And the more sensitive they are the better.
Here’s a problem to sink you teeth into. Supposing you had a wind flag at your shooting position and one at your target and each one registered the same amount of wind in opposite directions. Which one has more influence on the target? World class shooters Nancy Tompkins and David Tubb seem to have completely opposite opinions on this. We had a long discussion on the blog many years ago but did not come up with a convincing answer.
Matt61
Matt61,
Please enlighten us all on your opinion. You are very well read on anything that you are commenting on, if not over and above, so your opinion would be valued.
Me? Down wind would have more impact. The pellet, in the case of air guns, would have less fps and fpe down range and therefore more susceptible to influence. Of course from your studies, that would seem to be only half of the story. 😉
Chris
We were busy this writing about the same time.
But yep agree. Down range.
You ought to read the Larry McMurtry novel, Lonesome Dove for comments about reading and education in the rough and tumble cowboy world. At one point, the two main characters, Woodrow Call and Gus McRae, have this conversation.
Call: What were you doing all afternoon?
Gus: I was sitting here thinking.
Call: Why don’t you think the roof back on the barn.
Matt61
Matt61
That’s a good one.
Here’s my thought on that. I could be completely wrong. And maybe I’m looking at to simply.
But I think the wind at the flag closest to the target is going to have the most effective on the shot. And I’m talking like at common air gun distances say out to 50 yards. But maybe even so out to longer distances like 100 yards or so and farther I guess.
My thinking is the velocity is getting slower the greater the distance is from the barrel. So the pellet is more likely to get blown off course easier. It’s back to good ole ballistics. The pellet weight will of course come into play.
The flag of course closer to the barrel is going to have some effect depending how strong the wind is blowing at that flag. Ut also remember the velocity is higher closer to the barrel. So the wind at the barrel will have to blow at a greater mph percentage than at the target to over come what happens at the target.But the biggest effect of the wind will be closer to the target. I think anyway.
GF
check out chairgun wind drift analysis.
might be a surprise.
tt
TT
The program I have of Chairgun only allows angle change by degrees.
It don’t allow a input of what distance or distances.
Am I missing something or do they now have a updated version of Chairgun available that allows distance.
GF
I have chairgun 4.0.7 on this computer.
Under toolbox, it has crosswind analysis.
It splits the range into four pieces with the wind adjustable for each quarter of the range.
A positive wind speed for one direction and a negative number for wind the opposite direction .
tt
GF1,
I just did that a week or so ago and there seemed to be no question as to what the outcome would be. Just like normal, only with the wind factored in. That is odd, as you know Chairgun better than me.
TT,
I have 4.2.0. Not sure if that is better. My guess is that it is,… being higher in numerical sequence.
Chris
I don’t know what version I have on my laptop . Only know what is on this one.
You get a graph of how the path snakes around because of the wind .
tt
TT
Yep. We call them dust devil’s around here.
TT
Ok that’s probably why. I must have a older version or they label apps with different numbers.
I’ll see if I can get the new version on my phone. I don’t use my laptop anymore. And thinking about it. Why would I not use my phone over my laptop if I was out in the feild.
But going to check it out now.
GF
That is if they are verticle and there is enough dust to see them.
Wind does unexpected things if it runs into anything.
tt
TT
Oh and while I’m finding the updated version.
Tell me why I would be surprised by what you seen on your Chairgun program.
GF
Have 4.3.3 on laptop . Different.
What I have on the tower tells me that wind at close range has a great deal more effect than at longer ranges.
You push a pellet off course right off the bat, it will continue going off course. At a distance it will be way off course and will take a lot to push it back.
tt
GF
OOPS
4.3.3 has “wind profile” . have not played with it yet.
tt
TT
I do have the latest version of Chairgun. And yep do have the drop down for different wind distances.
And now that you mention it. I can see the wind influencing the pellet path right off the bat. But then again. What happens if the wind is greater at the target. That percentage thing could take effect at the target.
Maybe more wind could be blowing at the target and overcome what happened at the muzzle.
And as I always say. Chairgun is a estimation. Not true to life.
GF
The thing is you don’t know exactly what is going on where .
And most people think of wind travelling in a flat plane .
Does not happen. Particularly over uneven ground and around obstacles.
Wind is a three dimensional animal.
tt
TT
Yep 100% agree that wind blows in mysterious ways.
My dad told me to watch the grass or whatever how it would blow from muzzle to target.
I still say for me to make a effective shot at well any kind of longer distance. I really need to make a shot first.
One shot one kill or hit in our case is hard to do for the most part. Especially if wind is concerned.
GF
I saw something a few tears ago that I would have liked to have on video.
I had a weather station on my back deck . If the wind blew from the right direction and the right speed, the vane went crazy and the anerometer went crazy.
I saw sudden jerking around of wind direction, and wind speed going into super drive. The vane would spin like it was going to fly apart. A Vortex . Violent. High speed.
You can’t see it.
Saw one at work along the edge of a cornfield a week ago . Was whipping the corn around like crazy for just a few yards, You can see them sometimes if there is enough dust, or leaves or loose snow.. Then there are the horizontal ones over obstacles like houses and brushy fence lines if there is loose snow blowing around. They happen for many reasons . Usually you can’t see them.
tt
TT
You ever watch your hawk buddy soar up in the sky?
If you watch one wing will bump up. That’s a thermal rising. If you watch they will turn into the way their wing bumped. Then all of a sudden they will lift 10-20 meters up.
That’s another thing not seen if shooting in a open area.
So yes alot more than meets the eye when shooting
Matt61,
Come to think of it,.. why wouldn’t you want to take (both) variables into account? Not one, not the other, but both. They both have an influence and both should be considered. Less at one equals more at the other and visa-versa. No doubt that concept has been considered already though. Really,.. you must have some good insight to share.
Chris
ChrisUSA, I figured you guys would bring Chairgun into this, and rightly so. It sounds like the program says that near wind, at the shooter’s point, is more important. I agree that the wind at both locations plays a role, but how exactly is the question. As for what I’ve read, it’s equivocal. Nancy Tompkins and David Tubb have completely opposite opinions about which one is more important, and each one knows a lot more than I ever will. Qualitatively, I think that the discussion has brought up the various factors. Close to the target, the projectile is moving slower, so it has more time to get pushed by the wind. At the shooter, the projectile is moving faster and spends less time in the wind at that point, but the deviation caused has a much greater effect downrange because of the expanding ballistic cone. It’s the same reason why misalignment between the front and rear sights has so much more of an affect that misalignment between the sights and the target. There’s no way to tell which factors should prevail without running a calculation. I would go with the Chairgun solution. I did a quick hand calculation which seemed to confirm it, but I can’t remember the result. Probably this kind of laboratory example has limited value just because other things are never equal. The picture will be complicated by different wind speeds and directions, so you’ll have to rely on your experience at wind reading.
Matt61
Matt61,
I think that most anything could be proven or disproven with science and controlled conditions. With today’s science and technology, it baffles me that the question has never been answered. Maybe it is not that that it can not be done,… it may just be that no one has dedicated the resources to do it yet.
Thank you very much for your insight,…. Chris
Matt61
I think it has to go beyond reading the wind.
Most snipers don’t make one shot one kills. They tend to make a shot to see where the shot falls. So f they hit with that one shot then good n their part. If not. Then they at least see where they hit.
Remember the indian that told his people don’t move they where invisible. But the shots kept getting closer till the one hit.
That flag is pretty terrific, have you been able to attach a wind speed to the individual flags? I’ve also heard the tape called flagging tape.
Coduece,
I have no wind meter, but I did do the window fan test that I mentioned (from above). That is something that most any one can relate to for comparison. I did want them separated so one ribbon would not be influenced by tension from another. The top and bottom guide works well and the movement is effortless which was also something that I was after.
Driveway rods could be used with larger guides. About the only thing I might have changed would be the guides. I might have leaned towards a single tube made from that clear stiff plastic tubing/tubes that you can pick up in the aquarium section of a pet store. What I have now is perfect and really needs no improvement, but a single tube would clean the looks up a bit.
I suppose the tape is flagging tape. I picked it up in the construction section at Lowe’s. My Gen. I model had strips from a white Walmart bag and all of the strips were coming from the same point and all the same length. The white was a little difficult to distinguish, so I am hoping that orange will be better. It is no thicker than a Walmart bag, very thin.
Here’s my tip of the day and it too involves plastic film. A quick easy way to keep you binocculars clean and dust free on the bench in between use.
Coduece,
I need a compact pair, but any are clam shell packed and I can not judge the quality. I will not buy a pair with first looking through them. I have not done my due diligence in research either, so bad me. That can be another whole can of worms, as in who’s and what opinions to trust.
Good tip though. I would at least do the same. Quicker than keeping the 4 lens caps on.
B.B., sorry for your disappointment, but I must say that it is encouraging to me, especially the part about reviewing group sizes. With a cooler head, I looked again at my Saiga groups from my last session, and they weren’t so bad. What I had taken for 5 and 6 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards were actually more like 3 inches; I was thrown off by one bad group. And there could be any number of causes. Since I was switching between different kinds of ammo, maybe I was influenced by the seasoning of the barrel with different powders which Kevin introduced me to years ago and which I’ve never really investigated. And it’s possible that the violent action of the AK could be compensated for with a more determined follow-through. So, confidence is flying high again. I think that 1 MOA is pretty much impossible. And judging from war movies, like Saving Private Ryan which I watched the other night, it is not relevant to combat shooting any more than a small built-in television set. If I could get inside of 2MOA at 100 yards that would really be something.
Matt61
Matt,
My shooting buddy, Otho, has had perhaps a dozen SKS rifles in his time. Among those he has found a couple that were impressively accurate. That would be 5-shot groups under three inches at 100 yards. But one will group consistently under two inches. That one he was smart enough to keep. He reloads for it and hunts with it, too, or at least he did until recently.
I don’t know how close to an SKS an AK can get. I don’t think they are more accurate though. So if you get a good one, hang onto it!
I have a Russian SKS that’s just average. I wish it was more accurate but I don’t have enough time remaining to look for a better one.
B.B.
Yes, I’ve heard that the SKS is generally more accurate than the AK. In fact, given it’s solid reliability and it’s superior accuracy, you have to wonder why it’s not as highly regarded. Does the integral magazine make that much of a difference? Or could we could conclude that the AK’s extra reliability and (perhaps) simpler design are that much greater advantages in a combat environment?
For my Saiga, I was wondering if the Russian manufacture would make a difference along with the Leapers scope and rubber eye cup and Hornady match ammo. So far not. I’m bearing out the reports of the U.S. army in the 1960s that the accuracy of the design is “stubbornly mediocre” despite all they could do to modify it. But I haven’t given up yet with the rested accuracy, and I’m already fairly pleased with the offhand accuracy.
Waterstones are fully dressed! I hope to have something great to report soon.
Matt61
Here it is
Coduece
Well that definitely will work. I like. Goes with my favorite saying. Simple but effective.
🙂
Coduece,
Nice look at your “top secret clandestine shooting research laboratory”. 🙂 Targets, wheels, gadgets, gizmos, ammo cans, guns laying everywhere and some sort of highly technical looking orange and yellow thing under your shooting bench.
I am not lucky enough to have a garage,.. so my living room looks like that! :0
I am blessed in that regard, however one of my most special blessings is the friendships I’ve found and made on this blog. Thanks for being part of my blessing.
Coduece,
Yup,…. it is a pretty good place to hang out. I feel the same. Kind of like an extended family in a way.
Wind flag update,
It would appear that a Gen. III wind flag is in my future. 🙁 I had a strong front push through yesterday with gust around 30 mph and steady around 10. Too much to shoot, so I sat the wind flag out in the front yard where I could see it perfectly from my desk in the house.
The pivoting worked perfectly and was uber sensitive. The 4 ribbons worked good, for the most part. That is unless the decided to wrap around each other. Not in some random fashion, but rather 1 long spiral that maybe had 1/2-1 turn, top to bottom. It looked like 1 long ribbon, when at rest. A strong gust would separate them. I find this to be unacceptable.
Separation of the ribbons would be one solution. The 4 lengths (did) indicate different wind speeds well. The pivoting was flawless. Perhaps a different ribbon material? Thicker plastic? 1 long ribbon only? The one idea I will do today with the existing design is to fold the ribbons into a tight accordion and then let them loose. The “kinks” left in the ribbons may prevent them from ever getting too cozy and becoming one. Perhaps having the ribbons come off the flag with a half twist built in first?
At any rate, just a quick update. Back to the drawing board for now, at least for a bit anyways.
Chris
Had the same front come through yesterday. It was rediculous out. I did shoot though.
My pellets were blowing every bit of 6 inches off aim point when they hit the target paper. And that would vary from 6 inches and anywhere inbetween to the bullseye. No way to get any consistent shots.
Now today. It’s excellent out. Calm as can be. It’s a whole different story at the target. Almost like I can’t miss. The pellets are like they are on a rail. They are grouping basically without me trying.
I think wind is a big factor when shooting outside more than is thought.
GF1,
I spent about 1 1/2 hrs. on line and was looking at all of the options and designs. WOW! It boggles the mind on the choices, homemade or bought. The one over at HAM that I mentioned before is like $325. Quite the invention though. One thing I did not check into was the weather stations. Sometimes you can buy the components separate as opposed to an all in one package. I am going to just cut out the 3″ and 9″ ribbons and see how just the 6″ and 12″ do for starters.
Heading out to shoot some and maybe catch a tree rat with it’s guard down. Later
Chris
Yep alot of different types out there.
I think yours would work better if you cut the tape in half and made thinner strips. And leave some space between the strips.
Anyway have fun shooting. That’s what I’m doing too.
GF1,
No joy on the tree rats. I did pursue 3, with no clear shot(s). As for the flag, I am sticking with a modified version of what I started with,.. after looking at what is out there. I will keep all posted as things progress.
Chris
Why would the sqerrial think about giving you a clear shot. Tell’n ya. They are smart critters.
And let us know what you come up with on your wind flags.
Well everyone, yesterday a new air rifle has found a place to live at RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns. I finally acquired a Crosman, a model 100. It is steel barreled with the five groove cocking knob and the curved logo. It is going to need to be taken apart and gone through and likely resealed. While I have it apart I will probably refinish it. I know the collectors are probably cringing at that thought, but I do not really much care.
RR
I just searched them. How do they pump? From behind the action under the cocking bolt it looks like. You pull it out and push in to pump?
GF1,
It pumps like a 392/397/etc. with the front grip as the handle for the pump. The rear knob is for cocking.
RR
Ok couldn’t tell with the pictures I saw.
But cool gun. You will have to give some updates as you get into more.
And they say the .177 caliber 100 is more rare than the .22 caliber 101.
What a nice classic gun. That appeture sight and how it attaches to the receiver is so classic , as is the stock. The grip on the butt stock looks like it was sculpted to fit the hand like a glove. I was looking at some pictures on Baker airguns. Glad it found a home that will bring it back to life and not just hang it on a wall.
Coduece,
Mine does not have an aperature sight, but a notch sight. I am indeed looking forward to taking this apart and bringing it back to life.
Coduece,
It does indeed come to the shoulder nicely. It is also surprisingly heavy. It was made when they still used real stuff.
Hey does the notch sight mount the same as the aperture? If not, is the slot on the left side for mounting the aperture sight present in case you ran across one? You do seem to have a knack for finding great items.
Coduece,
To the best of my knowledge it mounts the same. I’ll have to find me one and see.
I find the great items because I look for them. I do not buy bunches of stuff, but wait until the “right” one comes along.
RR,
Glad to hear you finally found a Crosman 100. I will be eagerly following your updates. I have been looking for one also for a while. I just have not found the right combination of price and quality yet.
I did just get a Benjamin 392, have not shot it yet. Hope its a winner, accuracy is a crap shoot with the 392’s.
Don
Benji,
I am really hoping this will be a sweet shooter after I have a chance to rebuild it. This will be my first multi-pump and an antique on top of it. That is why there was a room available for it.