Characteristics of a classic airgun

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • Airguns are easy to use
  • Airguns are quiet
  • Airguns cock easily
  • Airguns are accurate
  • Airguns have good sights
  • What about plastic?
  • Triggers
  • What have I missed?
  • Why is this in the history section?

I celebrate my victories quietly. One of them has been to expose the elements of classic airgun design, so people who need to know can understand what it takes to make something timeless and enduring. We all know that the airgun manufacturers are silent readers of this blog and its comments. Today I am dedicating this report to them — a compilation of design aspects that will ensure a classic airgun. I’ll tell you why at the end of the report.

Airguns are easy to use

Yes, there are people who only shoot airguns. Before I wrote this blog I had no idea there were so many of them, but there are. They are a sizable element of the shooting population and designers need to be aware of them. But their numbers are overwhelmed by the number of firearms shooters who also shoot airguns from time to time. And why do they do it? Because airguns are easy to shoot. I can pick up a Diana 27 and snap off 5 shots at targets of opportunity before you can pack your AR-15 with bipod and sniper scope into that oversized black tactical bag! And we both know the rifle isn’t all you need to go to the range. You load the car with stuff, while I carry my 6-pound breakbarrel in one hand, and a tin of pellets in my pocket.

Airguns are quiet

You say you like the feeling of recoil and the blast when you shoot? Then why do you shoot off a Caldwell Lead Sled and wear hearing protection at the range? My Air Venturi Bronco is quiet enough to shoot in an apartment with thin walls and never disturb the neighbors.

Airguns cock easily

Here the road divides, and as Yogi Berra once said, “When you come to a fork in the road — take it!” Some airguns are easy to cock, while others require the strength of Hercules. Classic airguns are easy. The hard ones are the guns destined for that end-of-year clearance sale.

Airguns are accurate

Everyone knows accuracy is subjective. So I will cut through the discussion and give you a guideline. If your airgun sells for under $200, it ought to put 10 pellets in one inch at 25 yards. If it costs over $1,000 is should put 10 pellets into 0.6-inches at 50 yards. Better is always okay. Worse than that gets bad real quick. You figure out the rest for yourself. [Well, let’s see — he didn’t address guns costing over $200 and under $1,000. Our new .25 caliber sporter will put 10 into 1.5 inches at 25 yards. At least that’s the best we’ve seen so far. Yeah, but it’s got a dipped camo thumbhole stock and comes with a bipod. It sells for $399.95, but those cool features ought to be worth the difference.]

Classic airguns are accurate. Period.

Airguns have good sights

 

Here is the definition of a good sight — one you can see and one that stays in place rigidly unless adjusted. The front sight shape compliments the rear sight notch.

Fiberoptic sights are good for one thing — pointing the gun at a close target when the light is good. They are not precise. But, if the target is 25 yards away, good is good enough. If it is 50 yards or farther, you need precision, and fiberoptics are not that precise.

Classic sights are also very cool when examined closely. RWS rear sights have multiple notches, Weihrauchs used to come with front globe inserts.

What is not cool is a sight that cannot be adjusted for the impact of the pellet. That is so not cool that it wipes out all the other good things the gun may have.

What about plastic?

Oh — plastic. The Fudge-word of airguns! Can plastic and classic ever co-exist? I think they can.

The Beeman P3 and Beeman P17 are both plastic airguns. And both are classics in my opinion. Daisy’s 717 has some plastic parts and it, too, is a classic. And guns from their 853 family are virtual styrene mines! Yet all are classics. My readers can flesh out this list for you.

Triggers

Okay, all you corporate lawyers — take a coffee break. I know they teach at law school that products must be designed with the lowest common denominator in mind, and the education system (helped immensely by social media) is rapidly slipping toward the single-cell entity, but where is the illogical conclusion on this slippery slope? Coffeemakers that don’t heat the coffee are safe, and safer still are coffeemakers that don’t even plug in! Knives without blades are very safe — and I understand there are several British cutlery houses looking into that possibility. I’ll let our UK readers explain that one.

Guns are made to shoot, and triggers are a major part of that. Sure, you can make a car that parks itself so your 16-year-old son doesn’t have to learn how to parallel park (poor baby!), but I don’t think anyone wants a gun that fires all by itself. Most of the anti-gun crowd probably already thinks they do — let’s not go there.

A trigger is the link between the shooter and the gun. The problem is, many shooters are not as skilled as they think they are and they adjust their triggers too light. Worse, they modify their triggers in non-approved ways, making them unsafe. How many shooters know their trigger parts are often case-hardened? How many know the depth of the case-hardened shell on a trigger part? How many believe that “stoning” means attacking each part with a rotary tool like a Dremel?

Triggers have too many variables for most manufactures. But there are solutions.

1. Make a trigger whose design is so revolutionary that it defies the kitchen-table tinkerer. I give you the Diana ball-bearing trigger.

2. Seal the trigger inside a tamper-proof box. Put the adjustments on the outside.

3. Make triggers that work! Then have the guts to fight the lawsuits from all the bleeding hearts who, “Didn’t think little Johnny was doing anything wrong when he opened the trigger box with a hammer chisel and polished every part inside to a mirror shine on a buffing wheel.”

The fact is, lawsuits cost money even when you win. I understand why airgun companies want to avoid them. But good triggers are possible. As proof I give you the Air Venturi Bronco and the HW 30S. Think about the trigger you put into that next airgun — your customers certainly will.

Okay, lawyers, coffee break is over. Back on your heads!

What have I missed?

Let’s see; how about steel parts polished to a deep luster and perfectly blued? Real walnut stocks with high figure and classic shapes? Classic shapes? Yes, it is time to fire the guys in the wood shop whose last jobs were at a company that made electric guitars. There are shapes for stocks that shooters know and expect to see. Get a gun book and look them up. And, does anyone still remember how to checker?

Yes, fine materials and dazzling finishes will always catch the eye, but they aren’t a solution for poor design. What I’m saying is you can put lipstick on a pig, but that doesn’t change the species.

Why is this in the history section?

Okay — what does any of this have to do with airgun history? Quick, tell me what a Daisy 404 is. Time’s up.

A Daisy 404 is a widebody BB gun turned into a pellet rifle. Never heard of it? Few people have. It wasn’t a classic — it was porcine (look it up).

I could continue to review other failed airgun designs, but I won’t. The thing is — and this is the whole point of today’s report — there are attributes of design that, if executed properly, will result in airguns that stand the test of time. They will be airguns people remember. Guns like the Crosman 600 and the Hy Score 801 made by Pieper are celebrated today — many years after they ceased production. Will the Bronco and the HW30S be celebrated decades from now?

Crosman 600
Crosman’s 600 is more popular today than it was when it was still in production.

Hy Score 801
Hy Score 801 made by Belgian maker Pieper is a classic breakbarrel rifle.

Time will tell. But let me put it another way. When the CEO of Crosman asked me if I thought they could sell 1,000 Benjamin Discoverys in the first year, I told him I thought they could sell 2,000. I was bluffing, because nothing like it had ever been tried.

They had 4,000 walnut stocks on hand from aΒ cancelledΒ project, and they put them on the first Discoverys that were made. They ran out of those stocks in less than a year!

That’s why.

190 thoughts on “Characteristics of a classic airgun

  1. Pingback: Characteristics of a classic airgun | Airguns: Air Rifles and Pistols

  2. B.B.
    That is why you are the Godfather!
    Amen on the triggers, nothing is worse than a poor trigger, nothing…
    When I shot my buddies HW 95 with stock sights, my cheek weld was much further back on the comb that I would have liked. Otherwise my eyes were perfectly aligned for a medium high ring scope. How can you make a stock for both medium high rings and receiver mounted sights?

    -Y




  3. BB,
    The Discovery does not have the fit or finish of the higher end guns. Yes, it is a pcp and therefore requires a little extra gear to shoot compared to a breakbarrel, but it meets your parameters in so many other ways! Accuracy and power have been well documented and its durability,to me, has proven itself. Since I bought mine back in Dec., I have put just over 10,000 pellets thru it and have had no problems at all. Talk about a great introduction into pcps! A great many people will probably feel the same with theirs as I do with mine, I love it!
    I’ve got at least a month of down time coming up in 2 weeks, I have to have arterial by-passes in both legs due to 100% blockage in left leg and 85% in right. 2 weeks on my back for that and then I will have cataract surgery on both eyes. I have decided to do a little more modding and replace all the seals while I’m waiting to heal.
    I hope everyone has a Happy and Safe 4th of July! Take the family and the airguns out and just have Fun!
    Bruce



    • Bruce,

      Best of luck with the upcoming procedures. You have been an inspiration to me with the amount of shooting you have done in just the short period of tome that you have had the Discovery.

      Chris




    • Bruce,

      I have been where you are with my legs. You will be so pleased with difference in the functionality of your legs after the operation. My prayers are with you.

      Mr B.


    • I swear almost all the forums I am on seem like their members are in nursing homes lol. seems like this sport as all shooting endeavors could use younger people I am 64




          • John
            Good. And you know what though.

            I don’t think there is any kids posting on this blog. Is there?

            I wonder if they even think of air gun shooting now days. If you didn’t have a air gun when I was a kid there was something wrong with ya.

            Now that’s something that bothers me.


            • My best friends little brother(his moms second marriage) is 15 and shoots in cowboy action shoots, and 100yd bench rest with his dad. At home he practices with a break barrel crosman and his friend just got a maximus. the kids who like it still shoot airguns, but feel a bit intimidated to speak on forums with us old guys.(i know I’m not old per say but when you were 15 a 37yr old was “old”).

              They are out there but given todays anti gun climate are reluctant to be vocal about the joy of shooting outside of the gun club or with friends they know like it.


              • John
                That is cool he shoots in those types of shooting.

                And thats good he shoots at home.

                And intimidated. I hope they can turn that into determination instead of intimidation.

                There is so much to be found when you shoot as a family and find a place to learn and ask questions.

                Tell them kids to seek and find and ask questions. They need to…..to survive. The future will be tuffer as time passes to survive.

                My teenage daughters shoot. We’re learning every day. And I can’t see it any other way.


            • GF1

              I may be one of the closest to a kid. πŸ˜‰ and I’m slowly swearing off powder burners. Mostly because of how much more effort it is to gather everything up and travel for a range day. I scoped my savage rimfire with a 3-9×40 utg ts for today and now it’s rainy and overcast. Ill be shooting inside today when I get back home. I may try the 36 indoors. My pellet trap will handle it. The wife’s nerves may not πŸ˜‰


              • PH
                It’s been a slow drizzle all day here so far. But I shoot from in the breezeway so no worries with the rain for me. And got the cool aid but still need to get the balloons for the reactive targets. But can’t do the video today with the drizzle. It’s probably going to get the cool aid powder wet by time I get back in to shoot at. Wife’s going to pick up some balloons though. So may get to try later.

                I hope you get some inside shooting done. I use to shoot sometimes in the basement at my old house. And the garage also. Haven’t shot in the basement here yet. I need to set me something up here though. I use to shoot a air soft pistol at the other house in the basement. Hung some sheets of paper from string from the ceiling in different locations and heights from the floor. Was a nice little fast action shooting course if I can call it that. But I would have airsoft balls all over the place. Used a wet/dry shop vac to suck them up. Was pretty fun shooting though. And the wife and two teenage daughters would come down and shoot too.

                And you mention your Savage rimfire. I got two Savage bolt action rimfire rifles. Both are twins to each other. They are the stainless barrel and actions with the black synthetic stock. Ones a .17hmr and the other is a .22 long rifle. And I shoot the low velocity 710 fps 40 grain bullets in it as well as the 950fps 60 grain sniper rounds. Along with standard velocity and some 1600 fps high velocity rounds. Got a pump 20 gauge Stevens 320 and my old .22 rimfire Winchester 190 semi-auto that I got for Christmas when I was 10 years old. And others as well. We shoot them out here all the time.

                But you know what. I rather shoot my air guns. There much quieter. Not that it matters out here. But I like that I don’t have to go out when I’m done and pick up shells or the plastic wadding from the shot gun shells.

                Hopefully this rain will stop though so I can get the video done. We’ll see.


                • GF1

                  I’m shot my .22lr savage. I like it but it’s not the precision machine my 30 is. All I had was Remington thunderbolts. It is so much easier to buy the pellets your gun prefers. My savage prefers cci but I wasn’t driving to buy them. Or going to pay $5 for 50 today. πŸ˜‰

                  I did shoot my stepdads hi point 9mm carbine with a nice older bsa red dot. I have never shot a semi auto rifle before. Other than a 10/22. I shot a group smaller than my palm (10 shots) offhand and fairly quickly. Definitely liked it. πŸ™‚ Only 25yds but still liked it.

                  I shot the best group of the day with a very unimpressive 1.5″ in a sitting position (25yds). Although everyone got a kick outa me shooting the silhouettes. My gun was almost silent compared to the mosins. πŸ˜‰


                  • PH
                    Air guns got their advantages that’s for sure.

                    And I love shooting semi-auto guns.

                    Had a couple FX Monsoons one was a good one that functioned flawlessly. The other one had cycling issues. And got a Crosman 1077 right now converted to high pressure air (HPA). It’s a fun little plinker.

                    Nothing like some fast action shooting with a rifle. πŸ™‚



  4. Hi B.B
    Super article Sir. Had a good laugh too! Hope those who matter hear you & I think those who have, did well. Thank you for all the time & effort despite your health issues in giving us what we so look forward to reading every day. I read every post although I don’t comment much. God bless you.

    Errol

    P.S. the 26th of July will be one year since Ms Edith left us. Please do an article in her honor on that date.


  5. The only air gun that I have, that I would consider a classic fails in several areas of your criteria. Easy to cock, heck no, the thing is miserable to cock, but mY 78 year old body still manages to cock it. Good sights, you got to be kidding, Yes it does have windage and elevation adjustments, with no clicks. You adjust the windage and it will throw the elevation off, after a few shots the thing has to be re adjusted. Lot of tinkering with sights . Accuracy, heck I don’t know, can’t keep the darn sights in place to ever find out . As you and most of your blog readers know, I am talking about my Webley Tempest . The thing just feels good in my hand and for some perverse reason, I love it. It is a modern made in Turkey 22 calibre .



      • OK, the Beeman P17 qualifies as a classic. I overlooked it, shot it a few times today and yes, although it is plastic, it is accurate, has a great trigger and fairly quiet. I would also add the Crosman 1377 and 2240 to the list. There is a new hand gun on the block that I think GunFun 1 would agree with me. It is the Umarex Brodax. What a sweet inexpensive way to get folks into shooting revolvers . I followed GF1’s advice and got the metal magazine for the plastic Colt Python and now I can shoot pellets, with pretty good results . The non blowback Umarex Makarov should qualify as a classic as it seems it is this blogs standard for BB gun accuracy.



        • Harvey
          Glad you got good results with your Brodax with the metal clips and pellets.

          I’m not a pistol shooter as I have said before. But the Brodax shooting pellets has surprised me.


          • GF1 and the group. Although most of the comments have been about rifles, I have another pistol to consider. For a hand gun I believe it meets most of BB’s criteria for a classic air gun. My Webley Alecto cocks easy on one pump, suitable for punching holes in paper, is pretty easy to load, It is the most accurate air pistol I own . BB found fault with the trigger, but with the adjustments it has, seems to work fine for me . Although it is plastic, it is tough and the sights adjust well, even a flip up front sight for course elevation adjustments. There has to be some kind of politics involved , of why Webley USA quit importing it and Pyramyd Air quit selling it. Perhaps BB could enlighten me. Best wishes
            Harvey


  6. BB,

    OORAAHH! GET SOME!!! THAT WAS AWESOME!

    Every CEO of every airgun manufacturing company should print today’s blurb out and call an all employee meeting and tell them this is what we are going to build and if you cannot do it I will fire the entire lot of you and bring in a new bunch.

    My 1906 BSA is my absolute favorite air rifle. If I could have only one air rifle, this would be it. It is easy to use, quiet and very easy to cock.

    It was designed to be a 10 yard competition air rifle, so yes, it is accurate. I judge all open sights by these and most others I find lacking. You take your glowy thingy sights and try to take a bead on a 3/4″ spinner at 25 yards.

    It is all machined steel with a chunk of nicely figured walnut for a butt stock. The craftsmanship exhibited in this air rifle is incredible. This is an air rifle for generations. It is over 110 years old and still going strong.

    The only shortcoming it has is the trigger. Being a direct sear, it is on the heavy side. But once you get used to it, you find it has a wonderful, crisp, clean break with absolutely no creep.

    You can keep your Uber Magnum Mattelomatic Wanabees. I’ll take a classic every time.


  7. Very good article. I can not add much. As for something new and (plastic),…. the Benjamin Maximus “nailed” the looks, flow and visual balance down beautifully,.. even down to the finer detail lines in the stock.

    “Lipstick on a Pig”,…… well,… that is worth a thousand more words. If they ever understand that,.. truly understand that,…. then we would all see an entirely different line of products coming out. Things do seem to be turning on some fronts though. Some of the finer makers truly do get it,… and it shows in their products.

    It is an exciting time to be into air gunning. As long as they can keep the ol’ buggy out of the ditches and headed down the middle of the road. You have been a big help there B.B..

    Everyone have a happy and safe 4th. Chris


  8. BB

    Great report! Will ruffle some feathers no doubt. You mention the Daisy 853 family. Recently you have been giving us the scoop on your 853. This got me looking again into the 753 which has been on my bucket list for awhile. Well lo and behold the Daisy 753S and at a popular price. I had to have it. I shoot at 10 meters and this rifle is the cats meow. Front globe inserts and rear diopter sights are a relief for my old eyes. No need to put a scope on this one. Hard to improve on one hole groups. Yes this is from a rest.

    Happy 4th to all.

    Decksniper



  9. Basically leave all the fancy gimmicks out and get the basics right. Shapes & dimensions, trigger, material, ACCURACY. I think a lot of all this comes from the “tacticool hype” going around now. People would rather have a cool looking color, bipod and optics instead of just a basic but well functioning gun.

    Great post and I hope this reaches the right people.


  10. B.B.,

    What a wonderful blog! Thank you so very much for writing it.

    A word about plastic in/on an airgun. One of the air guns I own that best fits the classic definition is my Feinwerkbau 124. It does have a plastic trigger. But that trigger is perhaps the best one my finger has ever touched.

    Here’s a suggestion for a future blog, and I know you have done a handful of them already that touch on this subject. How about a blog with an extensive list of true classic air pistols, followed by a blog of true classic air rifles? I am thinking of lists that have only a brief justification for each gun being a classic. That way the lists can be quite long and still fit in a couple installments. I know most of us are unaware of many airguns out there that have most august reputations. Much of the further exploration can be left to the reader. For example, after I finish this comment, I intend to read up on the Hy Score / Pieper 801, about which I know little.

    Michael


  11. I don’t know why you are always so dismissive of kitchen table tinkerers. I am one. I have a Red Ryder that I have tuned to a million fpe, it can take down elephants at 600 yards with a two stage trigger that breaks like fine crystal. What’s wrong with that? πŸ™‚

    Seriously though, the modding cottage industry is an interesting one and a valid facet of the airgunning hobby. I’m not saying it doesn’t get abused and that it can be scary if you’re not careful or don’t do your homework, but still it is a fun and rewarding part of the hobby.


    • Fused,

      Well said. I enjoy the tinkering and modding as much as I do the shooting. I am always thinking about the next thing that I can tweak, modify or improve.


      • Chris USA and Fused
        You know me I’m definitely a modder. Been that way all my life. It’s always like what I have ain’t made exactly the way I want it.

        So that said yes I would probably still modify something some kind of way.

        But it’s like when I was talking to RidgeRunner the other day about triggers and what a gun comes equipped with.

        There are certain things in a package that should not be left out. Take a old 69 big block Corvette with a 4 speed and a posi rear end with 4.10 gears. Then equip it from the factory with some skinny F70 polyglass tires on it instead of some N50’s all the way around it. That car package would be useless without the 50’s on it.

        Well the same way with a air gun. A trigger is a part of the package that shouldn’t be skimped on. If the gun came with all the basic stuff then it allows me to shoot a good quality gun as it comes from the factory. Then if I want to improve fps or shot cycle then that’s me.

        Chris you know here’s something to think about. What would your Tx or LGU and Marauder be like to shoot if it didn’t have the trigger that it has. Seriously what would you think. Shoot a gun with a junk trigger and you will be very glad your guns I mentioned have good triggers.

        The basic pieces in the package need to be there.



          • Fused
            Trust me I have messed with things to try and improve something or more like I want and should of left well enough alone. And I don’t just mean air guns.

            That’s the thing when you do that modding stuff your learn what works and what don’t. And finally when you do it enough you gain exsperiance as to when to stop or not mod a specific thing at all.

            It’s just today BB wrote this blog and a statement or two should be made to the manufacturers of air guns or whatever it is thats being made. That they should go the one more step when they put a package together to make it complete. Why go through all the trouble to design something and get it into production and skimp on something that could ruin the outcome of the whole package.

            That one little thing could hurt sales. Especially nowdays. People seem to be more informed when they purchase something. I know can when I look at purchasing something I look at all aspects of the product. Construction, quality, fit and function and the purpose it will be used for.

            Maybe some people ain’t bothered by less than adequate parts in a product but I bet there a lot who are worried about those things. The job needs done right as they say or don’t do it at all. Design things to work and nothing is needed and it will last and then you don’t have to add to the cost of the product or time involved to add those things.

            Yes I like to mod. But yes I like to have something that is complete so I don’t have to touch it if I choose not to and that works fine that way.

            And don’t take this as I’m directing it towards you. I just think the manufacturers need to wake up.



    • GF1,

      Well, the new stock with check riser is on as well as the ocular sun shade. The stock ended up at full left, with a slight tilt inward at the bottom. The riser is up 3/4″.

      The “eye cup” turned into quite the project. It has an adapter, that takes 3 inserts. My scope on the M-rod required none. I started out with the stock and riser and got things to perfect cheek weld status. Then I put the eye cup on and all was lost. πŸ™

      In the end, I cut 2 ribs out of the front of the bellows. It still fit the adapter fine. Next was the eye cup, and my (eye socket and nose). Enter the scissors,…… πŸ˜‰ Some areas were obvious for trimming. Then came the test, cut, test, cut, test, cut phase. I ended up cutting into the first rib ahead of the cup to clear the nose.

      In the end, it all worked. Cheek (bone) weld is instant and picture is perfect every time. The tube helps with outside light and keeps the pupil dilated to receive more light. It shot well too. I polished up the rubber cuts with a small sanding drum on a Dremel. They work,… and work great,…. just be prepared to do a bit of custom fitting. In my opinion, the rubber is way too hard just to press your face against it and move the head around and in and out.

      As for the 33.95’s and the 33.95’s MKII’s, I could not tell a difference. I held 2″ groups at 70 yards, but still had the fliers that put the groups into the 3″ range. Sub-groups were no better or worse.

      I am not sure what to do. Weigh and head sort would be obvious. I am pretty sure I molyed the hammer when I had it down. That could be some variation, but I do not think it would slow a shot/valve hit down that much to produce a really off shot. I could up the trigger pull too, but from looking at past targets, I can not see much of a difference. I did lighten it awhile back, but it is still at 1 1/2#. It started out at 2# 2.6oz. Targets before and after the trigger lightening really showed no difference.

      Any ideas?




        • GF1,

          Yup, I am aware that they made some shorter pellets for guns with mags.. From my check of 1 each yesterday, the only thing that changed is the skirt, but not by much. I will be checking more, so that may change. Some, of both, will not drop all the way into the pellet mag chamber(s). But,… the clear cover will still close. This speaks to skirt variation.

          Do you think that moly on the hammer would drop a shot 1″ from the rest of the group? With the 12# spring, I would think not. I may take the trigger pull weight up a bit. Today, it seemed a bit light.

          If I guess right, you are saying that I need to push them 33.95’s another 100-150 fps. to get good results.

          Maybe those good groups at 100 were just luck? A “flier” can go 1″ towards the group, or away from it?

          Darn you anyways!!!!,…. you are the one that got me hooked on 70 yards and out,….. πŸ˜‰

          I may go back to 50 yards for testing the reg. 33.95’s and the 33.95 MKII’s.


          • Chris USA
            Seriously go back to the 50 yard testing. You know what happens if you increase distance. The variables multiply. And you know there is variables in weather conditions even if you don’t see them.

            Try for at least .600″ groups at 50 yards. If you can’t get it to do that then no sense going out farther.

            And yes velocity will help out farther. But I think you got something else going on.

            Try loosening your shroud a little bit and shoot can and see what happens. Seriously try it. Like a 1/8 of a turn. Then try a 1/4 turn loose. See if it affects your group’s and poi shift.


            • GF1,

              Sounds good and makes sense. (Will try) Sat. PM or Sun. and Mon. for sure. I will do some weigh and head sort to eliminate that variable,… if I have time. Tomorrow AM,… Mom and Dad help and shopping after.

              If I guess right,…. because the barrel contacts the shroud at the end of the barrel,… this would be something “akin” to tuning barrel oscillations? Maybe? Less barrel/shroud pressure at the breech? Allowing a more natural “whip”?

              Thanks for the suggestion. Chris


              • Chris USA
                The shroud should never contact the shroud. Even with the power mine makes it only rises.

                The reason I mean loosen the shroud is to make sure the pellet is not clipping something. Or is that o-ring that is on the piece that is attached to the muzzle of the barrel good. The piece that has all the holes in it for air relief.

                Something in there could be a loose fit and causing your barrel to vibrate around in the shroud causing different locations of the barrel when shot causing group variation.

                Just need to look deeper is all I can say.



                • GF1,

                  Yup,… solved the barrel band issue right out of the box. It was touching. Plus, I have like 8-9 oz. of weights. But,.. will try what you said. Fingers are crossed! πŸ˜‰

                  Will keep you posted,…. Chris



                    • GF1,

                      Dude, you have really messed Chris up. He was doing fine with his sproingers. Now you have him shooting long range with a MRod. He’s never going to be the same again.

                      I might have to break my Edge out some this weekend. πŸ˜‰


  12. B.B.

    Great blog. I really enjoyed this one. The older I get the more I understand about true classics. I hope I can get ahold of a few in my coming years.

    GF1

    U were right. I want a pistol… Im looking at an old beat up Webley junior and a really nice Slavia zvp. I think I mentioned it to you. I’m a turtle though and will look for a while longer I think. πŸ˜‰

    Anybody

    I’m looking for a classic styled spring piston pistol. I think the most attractive are the style in which the hw70 takes after, or probably more accurately, has endured from. I really like the Slavia Zvp. Anybody have one? What are they like? Or for that matter any input on any similar style?


    • PH
      It sounded that way the other day when you we was talking.

      And don’t ask me about pistols I’m just starting to get into them. Kind of in slow motion right now with them. The fires burn’n but it ain’t blaze’n yet. Still liking my rifles more. πŸ™‚

      Will be waiting to hear what you get.


      • GF1

        Yeah that’s the funny thing about me. I can change my mind and derail the “thinkin train” in a hurry. After talking to you and then had the 30 and 36 out yesterday, I realized I have the rifles I “need” for just a bit. I “need” to get better with them before I buy something more expensive and or powerful.

        My p17 is a “classic” but I know it probably won’t last forever. Even with the new 2240 sharing the load. I want something I can dump shot after shot through. Pistol or rifle.

        I shot the 30 for the 1st time rested at 15yds last nite btw. I shot jsb exact express and they were nothing to brag about. The super domes were much better my usual grouping of 1/2 to 3/4 inch. I want to stretch those results to 25 yards. That is my goal.

        I think I will finally restock on pellets tonight as I have tried my sampler pack and have seen which ones I like. The crow magnums are very good at 15yds from the 30. Even though I find them gimmicky I like the idea of what they can do at that range. Definitely going to smash a few soda cans with them.

        I have tried the barracudas coated in copper. I wonder if I would get copper fouling from them?

        But at any rate I shot 120+ pellets last nitelo and it was very easy to shoot so long. I better plan ahead and restock. πŸ™‚


        • PH
          I take that back. I can recommend a pistol. And you can put a butt stock on it to make rifle out of it if you want.

          It’s on the expensive side and it’s a pcp. But it’s very accurate has a true 2 stage fully adjustable trigger and is very quiet. Oh and easy to hand pump. And not pellet picky. I had a couple of them throughout time. Here this one.


        • PH
          I hit the post button to soon. Here is the pistol.
          https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Crosman_1720T_PCP_Target_Air_Pistol/2705

          And did you try JSB 8.4’s or the JSB 10.34’s in your hw30? I actually have had good luck with both pellets in several different versions guns. And I favor the JSB 10.34’s the most. Even in lower powered guns. The design of the pellet helps them shoot flatter than normal for a heavier grain pellet.

          Anyway just thought I would mention the pistol and the pellets.


          • GF1

            I keep looking at that pistol. I didn’t even think of putting a stock on it! That would be really cool. It will also match the 2240 in looks and handling. (For playing around, even if u want to call them both oranges it’s more like mangos and grapefruits πŸ™‚ )

            I will order more pellets tonight and use my holiday code that PA was nice enough to give us. πŸ˜‰ the jsb 8.44 we’re out of stock when I checked last but have air arms 8.44 in there and Def have 10.34 in there. The falcons were the best at 10meter but don’t know how much range I’ll get. I’m betting the 8.44 will beat them out? Only one way to know for sure. πŸ™‚


      • GF1

        I know your going to shoot that brodax awhile longer but make sure u let me know Ur next step. I love others folks toys almost as much as my own. πŸ˜‰ that ol fire will take off. We all know. πŸ™‚


        • PH
          Oh I have had my share of air pistols already. Looking for a firearm pistol. And hope to try some different air pistols that resemble and function like the firearm version they copy.

          That’s what I should of said.

          But yep had a few 1377’s and 1322’s, a couple 2240’s. A 2300s and t model. A Marauder pistol and the 1720t’s. Probably a few more I’m not thinking of.

          But mine all got the Crosman 1399 stock or the RAI adapter to use a AR style butt stock. And the 1322 and 1377’s and 2240’s and 2300’s ended up wearing longer barrels. Like I said. I’m a rifle man deep down inside. So you see they didn’t stay pistols for even a second when I got them. The first shot fired on any of the ones I mentioned was as a rifle. πŸ™‚


          • GF1

            I had to chuckle. Yeah you are a rifle guy deep down! IMO those 1377 are better carbines anyway. I’ve held them in the store and always thought a shoulder stock suited them better.

            I did place my pellet order finally. I got 8 different flavors. The jsbs we talked about and some other high end kinds. I really just prefer the h&n first and jsb second. I’m sure I may be missing out on the “magic potion” on one of my guns by not getting all of everything. πŸ˜‰

            See my post to B.B. below. I found a new pistol that’s on the way. This would be a pistol that I wanted as a boy. I never knew what they were called (any of the brands that had this look of a spring pistol) but I know what I like by the looks.

            I know it’s gna be slow but that means I can shoot it in the house! πŸ˜‰


            • PH,

              πŸ™‚ You would be surprised what you can shoot “in the house”. I did the .25 M-rod making 800-900 fps at 5 FEET while doing chrony testing. Something to think about.



              • I shoot the Benjamin Trail XL725 break barrel and the Colt Peacemaker .177 in the basement of my house, a trap filled with duct seal compound available at electrical supply stores or Amazon http://tinyurl.com/hjev37o It is cheap to replace and will last a long time, The box I made is about 8″ thick 3/4″ plywood and I doubled the back, the dough like compound will not harden and is easily worked. Shooting as close as 10′ with the .25 Benjamin is stopped by the compound I have inside that is about 1.5-2″ thick.



      • B.B.

        You say it all in just a couple of words. I think I may have found my next “wondergun”. I think I have one tracked down. If it’s meant to be then maybe it will come home to me. πŸ˜‰




          • B.B. and Chris USA

            I ended up with a kind of newer version by the looks. It is also a .22 I’m not overly crazy about the caliber but for what I intend and what I want I think it will be just fine. I imagine 15yds will be a lob but it’s really going to thump those cans!


          • BB,

            My 1st airgun is a Benjamin 347 that my dad got me 30years ago. I had it fixed recently as it was slowly leaking air.

            I read you mention that you should always store it with a pump or two of air. At two pumps, the hammer spring of my rifle is eventually able to push the value open and drain the stored air.

            I’m wondering if i should…..

            1)Store it with more pumps(say 4) or till the valve stays closed.
            2)Store it with 1 pump but keep it cocked.
            or 3)Should I cut off a bit of the hammer spring to “soften” it.

            Thanks πŸ™‚

            Vincent


      • B.B.

        Just following up. I immediately did an image search for that Diana. I loved what I saw. I was going to ask you where to find one but I flashed back to a blog u wrote awhile back. I Google searched again and looked at gunbroker. I found a sweet looking Winchester 353 for a decent price and clicked. Hmmm I wonder how I knew that that Winchester might be something I was interested in? Maybe some wise man with a load of info for young eager minds mentioned something in his long saga of gold filled blogs?

        He was wise indeed maybe even a Godfather of sorts? Haha sorry I had too. Your word is gold to me. I find your taste similar to my own on many of these AGs. Any gun you I have bought under your reccomendation has been stellar for me. I brag them up so often you may even recall most of them πŸ˜‰

        But anyway I have it on the way as we speak. I’m still nervous because I have never used something like that auction site. But I was relieved when I saw the kind of rating the person had.

        I just wanted to thank you for your brief words. I understand how busy you are. It means a lot to have that small nudge in the right direction. That goes for everyone on here.



          • Chris USA

            I know man. Lol I did buy the somewhat cheaper version though. I can’t afford the one B.B. is talking about but I can get this one that hopefully has similiar internals etc.

            I have a couple others I’m watching as well. I figure I will have plenty to shoot and when I’m bored I’ll have some “currency” when I finally get to go to my first shot show. It will be awhile but hey I got awhile. πŸ˜‰ in the meantime im sending one after another downrange. πŸ™‚


            • PH,

              You did say,….. ” I need to get good with what I have already “,…. or something to that effect. That is good “self” advice,.. and saves some coin as well. Well,…. at least it “slows down the bleeding” a bit. πŸ˜‰

              πŸ™‚ Chris


              • Chris USA

                Haha yeah I did say that! But of course I meant rifles only… πŸ˜‰ I need to build the pistol herd up to strength. Then I’m done for a while I swear!? πŸ˜‰ haha yeah this stuff gets addicting. But the great thing is most of these are a one time investment. Its not like worrying about putting miles on a sportscar. Or that’s what I keep telling myself Lol.



              • GF1

                I hope so. I keep looking at rifles and I keep saying, it doesn’t do anything I can’t do now. My yard isn’t big enough to out distance my 30. If I go corner to corner it’s only 40yds of shooting lane. That is too much for me with open sights (for now) but the gun can handle itself (with what I expect from it)

                I guess I did deep down. I knew that I was gna get a pistol. Now I can practice both. πŸ˜‰


                • PH
                  It’s a good thing to keep happy down inside this day and age.

                  Plus a good thing to improve skills. It’s always important to keep advancing. Well actually to keep above the ball game.

                  All this airgun stuff could be a important factor in the future more than people can imagine.

                  And they better be good ones to last when we live in a different world as time passes.


        • Punchin Holes,

          The Diana model 5 is a classic. It may take a little getting used to, but you will discover it is accurate and reliable.

          One thing about the Winchester. It was made at a time when all Diana seals were prone to dry rot. The solution, if it has a power problem, is to have it resealed with modern seals that never wear out. Pyramyd Air can do that.

          I have had to do this with several Dianas from this timeframe. Other than that, it is virtually indestructible.

          B.B.


          • B.B.

            Thanks for that. I saw in the listing that the end cap was damaged. Lister said the owner before was trying to replace seal. He is supplying a new end cap as well as the old. I will definitely look into what’s going on when I first get it.

            On a parting thought. I’m a lefty and I see the grip is molded. I’m kind of excited actually. It means I either need to learn right handed shooting or improving my wood working skills. Those are toils in life I don’t mind. πŸ˜‰


      • Plus one on the Diana model 5. That was the first airgun I purchased, from a gun store in Mountain View, California in the 70’s (Eddy’s, now long gone). One of my few regrets in airguns is that I sold that one!

        Mike U.


  13. I had a Daisy 404 I traded my Brother out of. He got it new. I’ve since traded it back to him. It was my (our) first pellet rifle. I could never hit very well with it. In fact I could do better with my Red Ryder. Ugh…..



      • B.B., my bad. I went over to my brother’s to see the 404. Its not a 404, but rather a mod. 450. Based off the 404 I am sure. Same pellet rotary clip-magazine that looks like a bb gun turned into a pellet rifle.


  14. Yes, I’m of the same opinion. My firearm collection has been built on the great, enduring and distinctive designs. Everything else is just a variation. I’ve noticed the same thing about knife design after my most recent acquisition which is a tanto fixed blade. It’s a great knife, but I can see how it deals with the same issues as the others. Do you want a clip point or a more solid tip? Do you want a straight or a curved edge? How much? Do you want a knife optimized for thrusting or cutting? Many of the great knife designs are based on small variations of these parameters.

    B-I-L, that’s a fine rifle you received, and it shows that the 7.62X39mm is not an inherently inaccurate cartridge. As with the AK, I suspect that many of the complaints about this cartridge are due to low quality samples, not the inherent design. Even now, you don’t have anything like the quality versions of 5.56 ammo, but even the steel-cased Hornady SST does pretty well. You might want to try some in your rifle. Those multiple range trips each month sound great but kind of expensive. I don’t know how much you’ve gotten into airguns yet, but if not, remember that they are much easier and cheaper to shoot than firearms, which I appreciate every day.

    Matt61


    • The 7.62X39 is similar in many characteristics to the 30-30. It has low recoil and is unusually accurate in the platform I use. As for going to the range frequently, this has a dual purpose. Tom and Edie not only gifted me this rifle but earlier in the year they introduced me to reloading as a hobby. I usually go to the range on Saturday and reload on Sunday. I alternate on weekends shooting the 7.62X39 and my Remington 700 in 30-06. I also sometimes take my .22 Marlin Papoose camp rifle, which incidentally also was a gift from Tom and Edie.

      Lastly, to answer your question, I also have a Hakim military trainer that I sometimes shoot from the kitchen, through the open door, into the garage. At about 10-12 yards it is accurate to less than 1″. Due to my age (72) and marginal eyesight, I added a cheap scope to the airgun and that probably explains my accuracy. And yes, it also was a gift from Edie and Tom. I always suspected and had a general idea what my Christmas present was going to be when we made our annual pilgrimage during the holidays to their home. Last year we visited too but it was a very quiet and somber get-together.

      Later
      Bob


      • Hi Bob. You are a fellow graduate of B.B.’s reloading school! I don’t know if anyone else could have gotten me through the process. It required a very fine balance of attending to the necessary details while reminding me that it is not demolitions. Now, I take a particular pride in it. I believe that the 7.62X39 reproduces the 30-30 down to its blooping trajectory which I notice even at 100 yards. This is kind of ironic since when it was introduced, I believe that the 30-30 was exceptional for its flat trajectory compared to the blackpowder it replaced. Perhaps flatness of trajectory is a relative quality. But in any case a curved trajectory need not prevent accuracy as you’ve found. Also on the subject of reloading, I was wondering if the tapered case of the 7.62X39mm interferes with the reloading process. Apparently not. The only thing better than Hornady SST in that caliber would be handloads which is another indicator of the potential of this caliber. It sounds like reloading defrays some of your expenses, but I haven’t found that true for me. But that may be because of my situation. For various reasons, I only reload for my Garand which limits my output and slows me down in making up the cost of the equipment. Then there is the hazardous materials fee for transport.

        If you’ve got a 10 yard airgun range, you’re ahead of me, and I am envious. I wouldn’t hold your scope against you since I use one at 5 yards. I’m younger than you, but my eyesight seems to be deteriorating, so it will be a race against time to get the most out of my iron sights. That’s great that you have so many momentos from Edith.

        Matt61



      • Funny you should mention these particular models. With the Randall knives, you are clearly a class act. They are one of the great knives of World War II which have continued to be treasured. Apparently an astronaut had one, and it was ultimately retrieved from a capsule that had sunk to the sea floor and the knife was undamaged. That’s great that the same knife is being produced today. Reviews from World War II were stellar with some soldiers claiming that they completely decapitated their foes. That sounds like a bit much, but I took a close look at the blade design. It looks like the traditional Bowie clip point has been merged with a very slight recurve like the Gurkha Kukri and even the Roman gladius to improve cutting power. So, maybe that anecdote is true. The only thing keeping me from a Randall is the expense and the wait time. While B.B. chastised me for my cheapness early on, I’ve never quite gotten away from it. I’m not familiar with the Randall thrower, but coming from that company, I expect it’s good.

        I just came across the Tru-Bal design through a Cold Steel model that is supposed to be a copy. Reviews are stellar, and I believe that I will get one. Otherwise, my experience with knife throwing is confined to two designs from Cold Steel. One is a cheap dedicated throwing knife, and the other is their Bushman survival knife. I would have thought that the throwing knife with its symmetrical design would be better. However, it feels like a brick in the hand. It is the Bushman that really shined. Despite its asymmetrical Bowie-style design something about the balance or maybe something else makes it a marvelous thrower. I outdid myself and had the knife sticking solidly at 20 feet although that was only occasionally. I just bought a viking style hatchet, and that has rekindled my desire to get back into throwing edged weapons.

        Matt61


        • Matt 61
          The #1 has been called an improved Bowie. The tip is stronger and it’s MUCH easier to sharpen the back of the blade. They were (are?) made of O-1 tool steel and VERY sharp. The style is awesome. A knife magazine used to give awards for new knife of the year. When they gave it to an exact modern copy of the #1 I quit reading the rag!
          The throwers I have are special in that the thickness varies in proportion to the width. I’ve seen some Randall throwers that don’t so i don’t know what the current production is like. They stick very well thrown by blade or hilt.
          Thanks for info about new production Tru-bal. i’ll have to take a look. They are top throwers.
          There are Randalls on Ebay at a premium. Expensive, but there’s nothing like owning the very best of something.
          Fido3030


          • Fido3030,

            Interesting. I have done some throwing and enjoyed it. Repetition and feel. My brother in law is a police officer and is skilled in all sorts of fighting and weaponry. He said that one of the best is a big barn spike, sharped on both ends. Then again, he aspires to being able to throw anything, knife like.

            After enough practice, you can pick something up, tip or hilt, and know how to throw it.

            That is cool,… just plain cool.


            • Chris USA
              Lots of fun Throwing knives are easy to make with simple tools with hardware store steel. They don’t need to be hardened or sharpened except for the tip.
              Fido3030


  15. Ok if anybody’s interested here is some real quick video’s. One of my shooting area with my phone. Then some targets being shot out at 50 yards or so with my .25 Marauder and the JSB 33.95’s.

    The top of the hill is a 150 yards so you can get a idea where the targets are at. At the bottom of the hill is a 100 yards. Not the best videos yet. And make sure your volume is up and watch the recoil the guns got when I shoot.
    Here they are. Hope the links work. I may have to make separate posts.
    https://youtu.be/OljUs1TXEM8




      • Chris USA
        Thanks. And yep wanted to keep them short.

        And the zoom in out on magnification is the phone. Not the scope. That’s why you see full view or the circle if magnification goes down. The phone only goes to 4Γ—’s. And I kept the scope on the gun set at my shooting magnification which is 6Γ—’s.

        Got more learning to do yet. There’s a slow motion option that I ain’t good at yet but it should be cool too op nice I figure it out.

        Going to try the balloon soda bottle flour reactive targets tomorrow if I can get time to go get the stuff. Oh and I can’t bring myself to shoot my old phone yet. As much as a pain in the butt it was I still had some good times with it. πŸ™‚


    • GF1

      That is super awesome!!!! Its really cool to see someone actually do it. (Or actually can πŸ˜‰ ) The soda bottle and flour targets would be so cool to see whenever you get a chance at them.


      • PH
        Thanks. And I’m learning real quick. What looks good in real life don’t look the same on film if I can call it that.

        It’s hard to get what you want captured on video.

        Hopefully I’ll get some reactive target video soon. Missed a cool video of a almost empty can of shaving cream that I set in the hot direct sunlight of the day. Was way cool when it burst. But I didn’t get it.

        But stay tuned. More to come. πŸ™‚


      • PH,

        On the high power, indoors,….. my stop is a an OSB box, (24×24 by 12″ deep), with 2×2’s in all corners, hinged front, with a 8×11″ cut out in the door. Binder clips for holding the target. ((1/8″ steel plate backed)), on the inside and a rubber matt hanging in front, inside the box. GF1 insisted that I put 2×4’s in front of the steel plate, which I did,….. but it is all split up and full of lead.

        The whole idea is to contain pellet (break-up) with the high power shooters. The TX and LGU just flatten pellets out into a real nice flower shaped “pancake”. No 2×4’s. The bottom is full of them.

        So yes, you can shoot high power stuff indoors.

        Do you have a chrony yet? That is where the 5′ shooting comes into play for me. Controlled lighting, rested/level gun, tri-podded chrony, etc.


        • Chris USA

          No not yet. I saw a decent setup like a year ago for right around $100 bux.I should have jumped on it then but I “wasn’t quite there yet”. My trap is just a simple cardboard box stuffed with a pillow and two pieces of 3/4″ plywood. It can handle my 36 but not indefinitely. Ill have to upgrade one day but the 30 and the p17 can’t hardly budge the pillow.


          • PH,

            That is how I started out. I went trough a bunch of boxes. You are right, that wood will not last forever. Eventually, you will have holes clear through it. I was lucky in that where I work, a couple of small crates, on small skids,.. came in. I removed the skids. I was also lucky in that we have steel “drops” that we trash. I just sheared them to fit with a big shear. Lowes, and such, sell steel plates. You could get one and build from that, when you get ready. Go at least 11 gauge, which is pretty much 1/8″ thick.

            The other nice thing about the steel and the wood box is that the pellet and bb clean up is fast and easy. Just some ideas for ya’.


    • Oh no. This is the dream that I described on the blog long ago which is to somehow have a real-time camera feed through the scope during the shot. All the other videos at the time were of the target only. I couldn’t imagine how you could get this camera feed without interfering with the vision of the shooter. But now it’s been done. Your reticle moves just like mine does although probably a little less. πŸ™‚ But the real payoff for this technology is to compare with other shooting techniques and get into the mind of the shooter. “My mind to your mind, ” as Mr. Spock says.

      Go ahead with those reactive targets. One of the most memorable shots of my life is absentmindedly drawing a bead on the very tip of a concrete block that was sticking out of the 100 yard berm. I was shooting my Savage 10FP sniper rifle. It was a real Jaws of the Subconscious moment where I released the trigger, and through the scope, I saw bits of the concrete block fountaining up in the air. Just make sure to stay away from Tannerite.

      Matt61


      • Matt61
        No tannerite for me. Just want to get some simple safe videos.

        And you know what I like about the phone mounted to the scope. Is like what your talking about. I can turn the camera on and set the camera magnification up so I get the full screen view. And it’s real time viewing right in front of you without even shouldering the gun. You can tap the screen and snap a picture at will. Or hit the video record button whenever you want. Or just watch what a shooter is doing while your standing behind them.

        I have been letting my daughter’s shoot and I can watch now if they are using correct holdover for the distance their shooting at and windage hold left or right of the target. So it’s a good teaching tool also. Plus you can watch your guns recoil and hear the sound the gun makes. If you took video’s of a gun shooting before and after a tune you could see how it changed the guns shot cycle and sound. Plus there’s a slow motion play back mode on my phone that I want to mess with too. I’m just getting started with it so hope for some cool videos in the future.

        But yep like the shot you described and you see it go flying. That’s cool stuff. And it’s one thing to describe it. But when you can show someone what you seen that’s I opening up a whole new avenue of excitement I’m going to call it. Pretty fun stuff I think anyway.



    • Big Iron
      I have not shot a 124 but I hear nothing but good about them.

      Don’t know if I will ever own one. But would be very happy to have the opportunity to shoot one.


  16. I watched the season premier of American Airgunner last night. I was quite disappointed. It was all about Rossi. I certainly hope it does not continue along in this vein.

    The roundtable segment was a HUGE disaster. I don’t know where they dug up this new bunch of characters, but I was not impressed. Yes, I know Tyler, but I have a whole lot less respect for his opinion after listening to him last night. That bunch were gibbering about what would be the ideal family airgun and they start honking about the merits of teaching kids to shoot with action pistols. When the two older guys seem to be suggesting the RWS 34, Rossi rolled over top of them and drowned them out with his ranting about a Morph. Really?

    Then Rossi does a Joe Commando review of an action pistol.

    I guess Umarex and Pyramyd Air need to move some stock.

    They had something good going there for a season or two, but I think it is gone now.


    • RR,

      I have not caught it in awhile, but from what my last impression was, you are pretty much on spot. We all had some discussion on that “vein” awhile back. Go figure,……? Maybe if I had a Masters in Design and Marketing, all would be revealed,…. but,..since I do not,…. I am at a loss for any explanation.


      • Chris,

        It is the typical American marketeering scheme. Every year we have to have something new, new, new!

        I do not think we will see Rick Eustler around there this season and probably not much of Tom or Jim Chapman. We are likely going to see a whole lot more Rossi and if you can even imagine it is possible, a whole lot more Umarex.

        Like I said, the last two seasons had shaped up to be pretty good, but I think we are past the crest and are on the downhill slide now.


        • RR,

          Maybe split it up into 2 shows? One geared more to the youngin’s, and the other geared towards the classics and theory and more serious topics. That would work and cost no more. I do not know if they get any feedback on viewing, but if they do, the results may be interesting. That might perk up the interest of the youngin’s, and they might realize that there is more to air gunning than “glowy” sights and neon and camo. Plus,…. let’s not forget about the surely,.. soon to be ensuing,… Zombie apocalypse.

          πŸ˜‰ , Chris

          I am “reaching” here,… “real far”.


    • RR
      There was nowhere to respond above where you replied to me about Chris USA long range shooting.

      But yep once you get a taste of it it’s hard not to become hooked on it. And it makes it seem much easier to shoot in at closer distances. I love the long range shooting.



        • RR
          Haha I know. But it was bound to happen.

          Especially after he mentioned a while back that he shot his Tx out at a 100 yards.

          Oh wait a minute you mean all the pellet sorting he’s doing and trying to figure out how to get the ultimate group. Well you know how that goes. I think we all end up there at some point in our air gun journey. I know I did. And that turns into a lot of work. I’m at the point where I like to just shoot and enjoy them for what they are. But it is nice when you finally get a stable of some good shooters that perform without all that extra work. I’m happy with what I got now and should say I’m lucky also that they are good performers.

          But it has been somewhat interesting to watch what he’s been trying. Hopefully he don’t drive himself to crazy trying to get where he wants to be. πŸ™‚





            • RR
              Well then tell me please. How has your shooting results been without sorting for the type of shooting you do.

              I know how sorting or not does. And going to stress this point. For the type of shooting I do.


              • GF1,

                I think I have intentionally kept away from doing such, because once I start down that road, there likely will be no going back. I have tried to keep some of the anal aspects out of my shooting as I primarily use it for relaxation. Devoting time to weighing and measuring each pellet before spending an afternoon popping spinners and killing feral soda cans is far more effort than needed to achieve the desired results.

                However, on those occasions when I pull out my Zombie Apocalypse Mini Sniper (Edge), I have different priorities. Now I am looking for the absolute best results I can achieve. But I need to keep things in their proper perspective. What works best now may not be the best when I change out my barrel or remove the air reservoir extension and adjust the regulator. In my ZAMS’s present configuration, in my last shooting session with it I shot a .8″ CTC ten shot group at 50 yards. I really need to get that 18″ barrel and spend some more trigger time with this thing.

                I have achieved really good results without sorting, although I did such to an extent when I owned a Gamo CFX. Shortly after I purchased it I found that it liked H&N FTT best. Then one day I tried a new tin and it just would not seem to shoot well. It turned out that H&N had begun sorting their FTT’s by head size. This tin was 4.51mm. I bought a tin of 4.52mm and the change was dramatic. I was able to shoot ten shot groups at 25 yards that you could literally cover with a dime.

                Yes, sorting can help. Like I said, when I go to a larger bore air rifle with the intention of shooting out to 100+ yards, I will probably be buying a scale, etc. and start down that road. Until then, me and my old BSA will keep the feral soda can pack thinned out around here. πŸ˜‰


                • RR
                  Very good explanation. I look at my air gun shooting the same.

                  I know I mentioned it before but I have no intention on air gun competing. I want to shoot good of course but I just want to relax and enjoy it when I shoot them.

                  What I try to do is find the best pellet for my gun. But I want to grab a pellet right from the tin. In otherwards I want all the pellets coming out of the tin to produce the type of accuracy I want.

                  And like you mentioned and I mentioned. Certain guns have certain uses. One might need to be more accurate than the other.

                  Like the Brodax pistol I got that I’m shooting pellets out of with the metal clips. That gun is just a total blast to shoot out to 15 yards. I know that don’t sound far. But 5 or 6 cans placed in the yard and doing some fast shooting at them is actually not to hard. And you wouldn’t believe what pellet I found that works best right out of the tin. The cheap Daisy wadcutters. I don’t know if it’s because it’s a smooth bore or what but the Brodax likes them.

                  Anyway time to eat then time to shoot. πŸ™‚



                    • RR
                      You must of missed awhile back. We was talking about shooting pellets out of it.

                      Michael mentioned that the colt Python metal pellet clips looked the same as the Brodax plastic clips that is sized for steel bb’s. So I ordered the Brodax and 3 of the Python metal pellet clips from people Pyramyd AIr.

                      The pistol shoots pellets great out to about 15 yards. Well you can probably do 20 yards but it gets harder to hit a can.

                      Oh and I did try steel bb’s in the plastic clips and that’s a disaster.

                      But anyway that’s how that came about. I had it for several weeks now. And I find myself shooting it more and more. Oh and it gets about a 110 shots from a 12 gram co2 cartridge. Nice pistol for $40 and it’s built nice. It’s plastic but it’s a solid gun. Oh and I did a trigger stop to improve the follow up shots when I shoot the pistol in double action. 45Bravo I believe told me that would help when you get it set right. It did and stabilized the gun better in single or double action.

                      So yes it can shoot pellets too. πŸ™‚


                  • GF1,

                    Could not reply to your reply.

                    That is pretty cool that you can shoot pellets in it. That would be a decent little gun like that.

                    I managed to get in a little range time with my Edge this afternoon. I had just put a new scope on it and after I zeroed it, it was shooting sub dime groups at 25 yards. Unfortunately the best I could do today was about 1.25″ at 50 yards. I just gotta get me that 18″ barrel.


                    • RR
                      And you know I like hearing about your Edge. You know I have tryed to add that one to my stable.

                      And why are you wanting to add the 18″ barrel? My .22 caliber Talon SS with a 12″ barrel does almost as good as my . 25 Mrod out at 100 yards.

                      And reply on one of my comments somewhere else that there’s more room if you want. I’ll see it.


  17. Pellet Weighing, JSB, 33.95’s, MKII,…..

    Just weighed about 275 pellets. A random 20 came in from 33.5 ~34.4. Broken down by 00.X or tenth of a grain, the count was 1,5,1,4,1,3,3,2,-,1.

    Of the 275 weighed, 51 fell out of that range, mostly under.

    I used an egg carton to sort the pellets. The biggest amount was the 34.0’s and they grouped heavier down from that,.. as opposed to having more over 34.0.

    I have not weighed much (lately), but from these results, it would appear that it may be a good idea. I will say that from past weighing, this test was not abnormal, other than maybe the 51 that fell out of the range.

    IMO, when paying for premium pellets, one might expect a bit better than that. That 33.9(5)
    leads one to believe that they have purchased a premium product. Mmmmmm?

    Any thought and opinions would be welcome, especially from those that do weigh sort. Head sort to follow, but from the past, that varies much less and may cover a .2490 – .2505, which would be .2490, .2495, .2500, .2505.

    Busy day, back later, Chris



      • GF1,

        That is the plan. Trying for that .600″ @ 50. Plus, do the shroud test as you suggested. Trying to get up the motivation to get outside now. Mom and Dad help done and shopping done. 2+ days to shoot all I want.

        What did you think of the weight sorting results? Fishing lead sinker fodder?

        Ha-ha on the RR and GF1 chatter above. πŸ˜‰

        You “busted” me the other day on the 1 post and wait for a reply “rule”,… didn’t ya’?

        Back later,……


        • Chris USA
          If you want to eliminate variables for now just to see how it’s affecting your guns groups. Then yes weight sort and also head sort too. It’s the only way you will know how much it affects your shooting results.

          And yep I wondered if you seen that the other day. πŸ™‚


  18. I know that the Benjamin 392 and 397 are Classics in multi pump guns but Crosman needs to introduce a new classic. Multi pump guns that you can’t put a scope on that have a lousy trigger just aren’t very appealing. I don’t see them flying off the shelves in my local Academy sporting goods store. Crosman needs to take a step forward and use the 1300 pistol as a base. Add the steel breech with scope grooves, the Discovery barrel, and Marauder trigger. Now that would be a multi pump air rifle that I would buy and Crossing with sell thousands of them to people who like the maximus in Discovery


    • Brent
      I feel exactly the same as you about a Crosman pumper. I already proved it can be done easily with the 1377 and Discovery parts. And yes it needs the Marauder trigger assembly for sure.

      I’m just waiting patiently to see if they take it to heart and build one or even something based on the Marauder and tube size. That’s what I would really like to see.

      All we can do is keep letting them know what we would like and see what happens.


  19. I hate my phone sometimes. Crosman would sell a lot of them to people who like the discovery and Marauder and would like a multi pump version of them so they don’t have to haul around their air tanks


  20. I would love to see a US company like Crosman or Daisy bring out 1-3 airguns that would compete with RWS, HW, and Walther.

    Ie: 13-16 fpe, a barrel lock up that can be trusted to stay consistent, a trigger in the 1.5-2 pound range, a classic shaped stock that is heavy enough that the gun is not be jumpy or hold sensitive, a deep forearm so it can be shot off hand without pointing downward, a high cheek piece that will work with a 44mm objective lens scope. If it could be made with some sort of “compound lever” cocking linkage that used the mechanical advantage to greatly reduce the cocking effort – it would probably sell very well :). I’d also offer a “deluxe” version with a honed cylinder, fitted spring guide, and lathe centered piston latch. Even the basic model should have a buttoned piston though.



      • GF1,

        Well, shot the 33.95 and 33.95 MKII’s at 50 yds.

        I had my H.O. messed up and used a 1 dot, when the 1/2 dot was more appropriate. I have not shot the 33.95’s much below 70 yds.. (thanks to you!) πŸ˜‰

        At any rate, first up was the Reg. 33.95’s. 4 in 5/16″, 8/8 in 13/16″ and 7/8 in 1 1/16″ (3)

        Next was the 33.95 MKII’s. 8/8 in 1″, 8/8 in 7/8″ and 7/8 in 1″. (3)

        So,… as you can see,… nothing conclusive. The first test, I backed the shroud off 1/8 of a turn. The 2nd test, I backed it off 1/4 of a turn.

        Still some fliers, but I was only shooting weigh sorted and not any head sorted.

        What ya’ think? Got any more “tricks” up your sleeve? Steady was very good. Mag. was 7.


        • Chris USA
          Are you measuring outside diameter to outside diameter on your groups? Or center to center of the pellet holes?

          When I say a .600″ group at 50 yards. I mean measuring center to center.


          • GF1,

            Center to center,….. of course! πŸ™‚ When I start bust’n 1″ groups at 100 yds.,…. I will bust out the calipers,…… a plastic ruler for mm’s and/or 1/16’s is good enough for now.


            • Chris USA
              Ok. And just for the heck of it did you try going up to 10 magnification or more.

              That will show how steady you really are. Maybe your not as steady as you think you are.

              Just throwing it out there at ya.

              And maybe try them lighter 25 grain JSB’s. Maybe the lighter pellet might help.

              Or that weight you have in the shroud could be moving some kind of way now and causing a problem.

              Or the lube you put on the hammer.

              So now what way you going to go?


  21. I could use a little technical help here. As part of my re-enactment interest, I bought a reproduction leather sling for my Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I*. I had been using an original web sling that was most disappointing. I wonder if it had contracted over time because it was way too small to use; it barely even fit on the rifle. The leather sling fits fine and is more consistent with the WWI look that I am trying to commemorate on this 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. However, the leather is kind of stiff. The question is what is the treatment I should use to make it soft and pliable. Sweat-soaked 30 mile marches are out. I seem to remember my grandfather telling me about a product called Neat’s Foot oil to soften my baseball glove. But that was awhile ago, and since I wasn’t very good at baseball that has been lost to history. I suppose that I could spray down the sling with Ballistol, but perhaps there is a better way.

    On the subject of re-enactment, I must give credit to a blog poster of long ago for one of the most hilarious stories ever. He was so enamored of his Gamo CFX that he was parading in front of the mirror in some kind of matching outfit, whatever that was. Then, on impulse, he pointed the rifle at the mirror and squeezed the trigger. Somehow a round had gotten into the chamber and the mirror shattered! That’s pretty bad, but there was also the wife to deal with. When she got home, he greeted her with some comment about how she was looking particularly lovely that day. She just smiled and asked him what it was this time. Ha ha. Now there is a treasure of a woman. πŸ™‚

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      So,… you are into knives as well? They have always been of interest to me. I prefer lock backs over liner locks. Assisted opening is great. Switch blades and Stilettos are high on the list. The Schrade LB7 line is a favorite. The Schrade, Golden Spike, 153UH is a recent addition. My all time carry is a Gerber Bear Grylls lock back folder with black and orange rubber grips and 8 1/2″long. Fits my big hands real nice.

      Not sure how those fit in with re-enactments, but just thought I would share.

      Chris


    • Hi Matt61,

      For your leather sling, just rub some Vaselline into it until the leather is warm. Wait a couple of hours and wipe off any excess with a cloth. I did that to a cheap leather sling, and it has been going fine for years. Also used it on a new stiff Helle knife sheath, and the knife fits perfectly now.

      Mike U



  22. A funny story, (completely and totally NOT air gun related)

    An older friend at work has his 3 grandkids living with him and his wife, ’cause Mom and Dad are pretty well messed up. That is not funny.

    At any rate, the youngest, 5’ish, is always getting told by her older siblings that she “ruined”,.. this or that. Over and over.

    So,….. one day,… she cut herself on something, minor, but still “big” for her. So after all the screaming and crying and getting her all calmed down,…… they asked her what was wrong, besides the obvious cut,….. “I am RUINED!!!”,… she replied, and started sobbing all over again.

    Pretty cute,.. and smart,…. in a 5 year old sort’ish way.

    Out’a here,….. Chris


  23. Here is two quick video’s of the reactive balloon and cool aid targets. Had to use a tin can instead of a 2 litre soda bottle. The balloons we got were to small to fit tight to the soda bottle. I got to get some bigger balloons and video again.

    Anyway this video is slowed down a little with the slow motion feature.
    https://youtu.be/n6OhKR4-JSM

    This is another balloon loaded in the can and some cool aid. It’s at normal speed.
    https://youtu.be/u_pvewxnjmw


    • GF1,

      Videos worked nice. I did expect to see more of a BIG POOF! of flour though. πŸ™

      As for the M-rod,…. this AM, I tore into it and de-lubed the hammer. Yup, it had a thin coat of Moly all the way, including the cylinder. If I remember correct, I put a Q-tip on stick and applied a very fine, even coat.

      The other thing I did was turn the trigger pull weight back in 1 turn. It is now 1 turn out from factory. From pull testing with the Lyman gauge last time, that should put it at 2# 1oz. From factory, it was set at 2# 3oz. and I had adjusted it to 1# 10oz..

      Time to do some head sorting and make a few targets. Looks like I will be getting that storm that was over your way yesterday. Looking good until later today,… tomorrow looks like a wash out,… hope not.

      I will try the higher mag level. I use 12 at 100 yards with no issues. This scope goes to 16. I will need to figure out what the hold over is with the higher level though. The shimming and firm foam under the pistol group is really solid. Plus, doing the hold under and then pressing down on the foam to bring the cross-hairs on the bull,… really works nice as well. I can hold on the bull all day and watch my heartbeat. No influence from the shoulder or body is noticed and the heartbeat movement is even greatly reduced.

      Back later,….. Chris


      • Chris USA
        That foam under your front grip might be causing the problem. What caught my attention is you said you push down on it. Look how much my gun rises when I shoot. I bet yours is to some extent also. If you happen to relax your down pressure for some reason differently when the shot goes off that could be a problem. Are your groups somewhat vertical in shape? If so I bet that’s part of your group problem. It’s best to let the gun rest naturally. Let the gun lift or recoil naturally. It will come back to rest in the same place as you pulled the trigger. Much more consistent groups that way. For me anyway.

        And the right size balloon in a 2 litre soda bottle makes way more of a cloud as well as the flour is better also than cool aid.

        The balloon fits down in the 2 litre bottle and there is about 3″ of the soda bottle above the balloon. So easier to add the flour and plus the soda bottle acts a little like a cannon barrel so it actually shoots the flour out in the air better like a bigger cloud.

        I’m going to try to run into town and go to the party section at wally world and get the right size balloons. The balloons I have now will fit in the palm of my hand (imagine that, a good size for a water balloon which is what they are).

        So bigger balloons to fit the soda bottle right and flour instead of cool aid this next time around. Don’t know how soon I’ll get it done. But hopefully another video before the 4th of July holiday is over. πŸ™‚


        • GF1,

          Well, back in.
          1) 1 1/4″
          2) 1 5/16″
          3) 2 1/14″ with 7 @ 1 3/8″

          1) 5/8″
          2) 1 13/16″ with 7 @ 7/8″ and 5 @ 7/16
          3) 13/16″

          All at 50 yards. So, again, nothing conclusive. That was with the 33.95 MKII’s and all were weighed and head sorted. The heads came in at 32 @ .2495″ and 16 @ .2500,…. so that was good.

          On your comment, it is the (rear)/trigger grip that foam is under. The front is on a short bi-pod. The groups are round for the most part. I used 12 mag for all groups. Yes, I could sense more movement, but still very good. The hold over went from 1/2 to 0 when going from 7 mag. to 12. I figured it would have been more holdover, not less. I have not played much with that. I (will) pay more attention to hold,…. even more,…. as I was already doing so.

          That is about it,…getting ready for round 2.


          • Chris USA
            Yep I meant the foam under your trigger hand grip. I still think I would not have the foam under the grip.

            And your 7/16″ and 5/8″ groups are pretty good. That’s .438″ and .625″.

            I don’t think your as consistent as you think you are on your hold when the trigger is pulled. The foam may be the problem.


            • Round 2,….

              Well, me being me,…. I decided to up the trigger pull 1/2 (in) past factory. Plus, I shot 16 mag. instead of the previous 12 mag. 1 1/8″, 1 1/4″, 1 13/16″, 1 1/16″, 1 5/16″ and 1 3/4″. Even at 16 mag., the picture was steady,… all except for the heart beat. That is the first true time that I really had to “time” my shots due to heart beat. Still working on that.

              At any rate,…. you can see that I am still “playing”. The groups were more consistent,.. less spread.

              Where from here?,… you ask? Up the trigger pull. Sorry dude,…. when it comes down to JUST heartbeat,…. that is pretty darn steady.

              That was weighed only by the way. Chris


              • Chris USA
                Hmm wonder why your 50 yard groups are only a little better than that good 100 yard group you got?

                And that’s not bad for 50 yard groups and if I remember right your normal 100 yard groups was around 2-1/2″ wich is nothing to sneeze about either at 100 yards.

                Maybe that’s the best your guns going to do. But it seems like something changed to make your groups change.

                I guess the question is. Are you going to be happy with what it’s doing or go for more shot repeatability. You know 2-1/2″ at a 100 yards is enough to hit a raccoon if your gun was still making enough energy of course to dispatch it. And definitely your groups are enough to easily hit a ground hog at 50 yards and dispatch it. Ain’t that what you were after in the first place?


                • GF1,

                  πŸ™‚ “Food for Thought”,… ehh? Come on, you know me better than that.

                  I will keep playing. After awhile,…. you KNOW,…. that I will be buying extra parts and modding the heck out of things! πŸ˜‰

                  I still have a lot of experimenting to do. Like play with the port screw and pellet fps vs accuracy and shot count, and,…. so many other things. Plus there is the whole SSG thing. Waiting to see what the Buldawg has going on there. Then,… there is that whole arrow shooting thing. I have not given up on that yet either.

                  Be happy with where I am at?????? Maybe,…. but just for,… a “little” while. πŸ™‚


                  • Chris USA
                    Maybe more mods ain’t going to help your Mrod.

                    Maybe you got something going on with your barrel. Crown or lead in chamfer not true to the rifling? Like heavy on one side and light on the other side. That plays heck with accuracy.

                    And ok one more thing you can try. You know how when you take the shroud off and the barrel has that piece attached to it with the o-ring on it with the equally spaced holes around it.

                    I opened those equally spaced holes up pretty good diameter wise. Then deburred them real nice. I think that relieves the air pressure blast better before the blast hits the baffles or in our case the weight we added.

                    I think that blast hitting the baffle or weight messes with the pellets flight. I did it because my gun is moveing a lot of air to make the pellet fly at the velocities I’m getting. Maybe it will help lower powered Mrods too?


                    • GF1,

                      Now that Sir, is a good idea. Notes made. I hope it is not the barrel. One thing I did think of,.. I did shim up the action. While it did work, and looks good, I might have to go back and see. From target reviews, I could see no real difference.

                      As for the 50 vs 100?,….. I do not know. I said the other day that a flier could go (towards) a group. I’ll bet many were going ???. If you pull a shot, and the pellet is an off pellet, then pellet flight could “correct” the pulled shot.

                      LUCK,…. in other words.

                      We will see. It has been fun getting here at any rate,…… and hey,…. you should be having some fun along the “way” ehh?


                    • GF1,

                      Ok on the drill job and de-burring. But, how do you de-burr the inner (part) of the piece? That is usually where the worst burrs show up.

                      Oh yea, take the weights out and try just the stock baffles. That was the other idea. I do not like that one,… but I would try it. I do still have 1 baffle in at the rear.


                  • Chris USA
                    Posted to soon again.

                    And yes I do enjoy seeing what air gun they choose and how they go about getting what they want out of it.

                    Some guns are easy. Some a pain in the you know what.

                    But it is gratifying when you get to what your after. Hard work does pay off. Eventually. πŸ˜‰


                  • Chris USA
                    Get a drill bit that is close to the size of the hole that is opposite of where the pellet comes out of the barrel. Then stick it in the hole by hand and turn gently. And make sure the point of the drill don’t contact the crown of the barrel.

                    The drill will cut the burrs off the plastic very easily.



                    • GF1,

                      It looks real iffy today. Wet now, which means the trees will be dripping for quite awhile, especially if there is no wind or sun to speed up the drying process. Most of the rain is South of here, but by 5PM, it will be hitting here.

                      I was surprised that you said that the piece was plastic. I had not noticed that.

                      As for today, I will make some targets, maybe sort some pellets. As for testing, I will do the air pressure relief mod., pull the receiver shimming and add another 1/2 in on the trigger pull weight pressure. That will make it 1 in from factory.

                      That extra trigger pressure helped that (final) bit of steady,.. which was coming down to pretty much just heart beat.

                      The other thing I want to play with is quick acquisition and firing the shot. As you know, the longer you hold a sight picture, hold, breathing control,…. the more the eyes begin to fade in and out. Plus, the steady can deteriorate pretty quick. Vana2 mentioned that the other day when doing off hand hunting,… He said he would purposely get out of proper stance and then practice and practice until all the movements would become quick and automatic. That is sort of the same idea. About 5 seconds would be a good goal I think, from start to finish.


                  • Chris USA
                    Yep that piece I s plastic. And when I drill out the holes I drill two holes at one time. They are equally spaced so I start drilling in one hole then come out the other. That helps make deburring a little easier. You still need to deburr the inside but if you drill like I said it puts the heavy burr on the outside on half the holes. Then you can just run some sandpaper over the outside of the holes.

                    And what your talking about with getting on target and not spending time before the shot is a good thing. The longer you wait the more unstable and tired you become very weather you realize it or not. Just like your eyes. If your eyes are fading in and out your waiting way to long to shoot.

                    Look how short my videos are and see how for the most part come down on my target. And soon as I got the reticle in place and centered on my target I shoot. It’s all in a split second. I have come to shoot that way because of when I was a kid out on the farm pesting mice with a semi-auto .22. I would only have a split second to get on target and shoot and move on to the next.

                    But yep it sounds to me like you may be concentrating to much on the shot. The shot process should come natural. But also a routine in a sense when you are getting your sights on target.

                    Anyway hope you get to shoot today. Give a update as to what happens. And getting ready to eat something and I’m heading out to shoot after that. πŸ™‚


                    • GF1,

                      Not looking good. Weather. I am going to take a break from here and see what the live radar is. I have kept busy with other things this AM. Plus, still need to do the mods.,… which will not take long at all. A You Tube video showed a guy just popping that piece off with a block of wood and a hammer, super easy. I will see when I get in there.


                  • Chris USA
                    Just wanted to say real quick I drilled the holes bigger with a hand drill while it was still on the barrel. It’s not hard to do at all. Just pay attention what way you go through. I went through the holes from the air resivoir side and came out the holes on the top side of the piece your drilling out. Just make sure your drill chuck don’t scratch the air resivoir tube. And watch as your drilling the holes bigger not to go to big and hit the front of the barrel. You could damage the crown that way also if you hit with that drill.

                    Let me know how it goes.


                • Chris USA
                  I’ll go back to my comment I made in the past about air strippers. They are suppose to relieve the air blast so the pellet doesn’t have turbulence affecting it’s flight.


        • Well just got back from getting very the things for our BBQ get together very today.

          Stopped about 4 places and only could find the smaller water balloons like I have. Wally world had bigger party balloons but they were sold out. That’s what the guy said there anyway on the size.

          So going to have to wait till next weekend probably to get some bigger balloons for the soda bottles.


  24. Fido3030—During the 1950,s I bought several throwing knives from Hofritz, and began to learn how to throw them. I was living in the ancestral brownstone in Fort Green, Brooklyn. I could use the basement, garage and abandoned 4th floor for practice. In 1960, I was working in a hospital, and had the run of the machine shop, I decided to make the perfect throwing knife. I took a large discarded metal cutting hack saw blade, ground it to my design, and brazed on a stainless hilt. It was crude, but looked wonderful to me. On my first throw, the point hit almost dead center to my target, chalked on a discarded wood door. Before I could shout for joy, the handle kept going forward until the blade had bent 180 degrees. then the blade acted like a leaf spring ( which it had become), threw the handle back. The knife then popped out of the target and flew at me ! II hit me in the chest, handle first (was I lucky !) . I had a bruise for a week. by now I was living in as small apartment, so I ended My knife throwing. Also, I had discovered guns and a place to shoot (the Manhattan school of firearms). Ed


    • Ed,

      Now that Sir,…. is a “story”! Yea,…. a bit of stiffness might be in order for those designing their own throwing objects. Very good,…. Thanks for sharing that,.. as I have thought of the same idea in the past. Chris


    • Ed,
      Wow! I’ve mever had anything like that happen, and I’ve made throwers from saw blades and fron soft steel. Did u ever throw that knife again?
      Fido3030


  25. Fido3030—No, I did a lot of trading with my friends. I traded it to one of them, but with a warning not to throw it. my knife was not made of soft steel. The blade was about 12″ long. How long were the blades of the throwers that you made? I think that if I had made the blade 5′ or 6′, I would not have had my problem. Ed


    • Ed
      Generally, Longest overall lengths were about 12 inches with blade about 5/8 of that. For throwers i like one piece construction with tape wrapped around the grip.(more durable than wooden scales and easy to repair) The amount of tape was adjusted for balance. For style of the ones i made i was influenced by Randall, Tru-Bal and also a whamo “malayan throwing knife,”
      I like the traditional knife designs of SE Asia, (Southern Phillippine–Moro, Malaya, indonesia, etc.). and the Whamo worked very well but a little light.
      I guess your long, springy blade and heavy handle was what did it, but i’ll bet it would be hard to repeat (and dangerous to try)
      I’m starting to get interested in making knives again. I’ve got some 4140 and some O-1 steel that’s begging to be used.
      Fido3030



  26. Tom, Am I alone in wanting a Single-Stroke Pneumatic with more authority than a 10 meter or Canada friendly option? The gun I want the most would be:
    1. A side lever of forearm lever single stroke pneumatic to eliminate the need for the artillery hold and the kick of a springer and the barrel alignment issues of a break barrel.
    2. Powerful enough to hunt small game humanely. Since the current 10 meter offerings seem to top out at under 5 ft./lbs. I would probably buy anything over 2/3 the muzzle energy and of comparable quality and price to the Diana 350 Magnum or Gamo Whisper Fusion 1300 springer’s I currently own.
    3. A multi pump pneumatic built for a stronger person might be viable. But, I hate pumping a gun 10 times for 6-7 fpe. How about something that gets 15 fpe with 3 or 4 pumps?

    I wonder if the reason no one makes my gun is the potential of it dieseling and possibly even breaking the operator’s arm or jaw during charging. Would a gun with an axial slide forearm pump overcome this concern if it exists?

    Do you have any insight to the availability of a manual stroke pneumatic that outperforms 10 meter and 12g CO2 guns in the field? But, Not one that takes 7-10 strokes to do it.


    • Jim,

      No, you are not alone. But the physics of the beast still require that a lot of air gets compressed and how that is done always turns out to be the rub.

      The CO2 thing has also been done by Philippine gun makers. Not with cartridge guns but with bulk fill. Again, they work the way you describe, but there are other things that people dislike about them.

      I guess a blog is needed. Tomorrow.

      B.B.



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